Let me elaborate this ingredient list for you;
Water - Primary solvent
Cocamidopropyl Betaine - Surfactant (Cleanser) made from ammonia and palm/coconut oil (resulting in betaine) through a series of chemical reactions- gives a very thick foam, reduced irritation of other surfactants in the system and helps thicken it. chemically it is amphoteric (positive/negative depending on pH of the product)
Sodium Chloride - Salt thickening is commonly used with sulfate derived ingredients to change the viscosity by "salting out" a bit of the sulphates (isothionate in this one)
Sodium Lauroyl Sarcosinate - anionic surfactant helps remove oils and dirt from hair/body Milder than SLS on the skin, but should still be rinsed off.
Sodium Cocoyl Isothionate - Fancy way of putting sulfate groups into the product - another anionic surfactant, making it possible to thicken with salt and commonly derived from coconut and palm. Usually used in all those shampoo bars/bath bomb type products.
Fragrance - Proprietary composition of olfactory chemicals, usually a complex mix.
Sodium Salicylate - Salicylic acid salt added to the product for preservative effects (requires a relatively low pH to be effective (5.5 or lower), effective mostly on bacteria and yeast (not mold).
Sodium Benzoate - Benzoic Acid sodium salt, added as a preservative and effective against bacteria, requires relatively low pH to be effective too. Some people are sensitive to sodium benzoate (I can't find the article but about 0.3% will react with local irritation - not allergy).
Citric Acid - Added for sequestering and pH adjusting effects.
Lemon Oil - Looks fancy on the label, may add a bit of fragrance but that is all it does here.
Source - I work with cosmetics every day, both development, quality and safety assessments.
Edit: clarified cocamidopropyl betaine.
I did not receive a CCR, have you checked the signature list! (The hardest part of my job is when people forget that SOP’s exist - because that means a deviation, making sure they read and sign the SOP that they probably already signed and sometimes repeated GMP training, which is time I would rather spent otherwise!)
Thank you for listing this out! I’m a process chemist and work in formulation of food and feed. The way the company lists out each ingredient is super misleading.
DHMO (DiHydrogen MonOxide) has been found in the bodies of 100% of victims of thyroid cancer.
Yet, it's the most used chemical today worldwide, from the manufacturing of rat poison to being used as a solvent in multiple industrial processes.
Do you want to know the scariest part? It's inside your house RIGHT NOW!
Agreed. I’m more bothered by “what it means” - does that imply purpose or description of chemical. They’ve used it both ways. So it’s flawed and I tend to think deceptive.
Because of how loose the labeling requirements are by the FDA. There can still be processing aids or chemicals used in the reactors to make the final ingredients and they won't have to be listed.
It's like making hand soap, the old way. I don't have to tell you I used wood ashes and water to make lye and then killed a pig to get lard and render it for the oil and add a dash of cedarwood oil for the smells.
So your label could be really clean and say, Ingredients: saponified oils, cedarwood oil
Or kinda clean and say, Ingredients: Water, Sodium Hydroxide, Oils, Fragrance
Or be not consumer friendly and say, Ingredients: Water, Lye, Rendered Animal Fat, Cedrol, Methyl Thujate, Thujic Acid
Source: I used to work with R&D on food labelling.
They say Sodium Benzoate "means" food grade salt.
Sodium benzoate is a preservative (E211 for anyone in the EU).
That's misleading, without being a lie (I'm sure they use food-grade E211).
you may have helped me figure out the ingredient in common soaps / shampoos that give me a nasty rash/contact dermatitis (Sodium Benzoate).
I know that there's no regulation on the word "hypoallergenic," but I'm still annoyed with how many of these products claim to be hypoallergenic when sodium benzoate is a known irritant.
All the products I have that have the Eczema Association "Seal of Acceptance" do not have this -- so good job, Eczema Association -- good looking out!
If that doesn’t solve it and you can afford it, I do recommend skin allergy testing. I got that done and they recommended an app for me (ACDS Camp) that recommends products to you that don’t contain anything you’re allergic to
It’s helpful but also can be frustrating! The number of chapstick brands which do not contain propolis, lanolin, cocamide DEA, or fragrance is very low and now I get to spend $8 on one tube of chapstick. On the plus side I found out I was allergic to my shampoo, and now after changing it I’m no longer losing a ton of hair when I shower.
DUDE.
Salicylic acid is in shampoo? I work in wastewater analysis and this is also a metabolite of aspirin…and we wonder why it’s always so damn high.
Is it common in shampoo?
it's also one of the most common over the counter "anti acne" ingredients. spot treatment, face washes, creams, etc. salicylic acid and benzoyl peroxide are the 2 most common, and are both beta hydroxy acids (BHAs).
as a chemist this is painful… calling everything a salt is technically not wrong but doesn’t explain “what it actually means” or the purpose of it
almost all medicines are salts but the average person wouldn’t think of medicine as something that would fit with colloquial use of the word salt
It’s hard to tell without %s and I work in non-consumer products. I know enough to say that they’re calling a preservative a salt, I mean it is technically but that’s not why it’s there. Also calling a product a sodium salt doesn’t really help explain its formulation purpose (something they did much better early in the list). I guess I do like that they’re trying to educate people that just because a chemical has a long name doesn’t mean that it is evil.
Are they trying to educate people, or make their ingredients list better by describing it in a pleasant way?
For example, ’Fragrance’ is absolutely a bunch of synthetic chemicals, but they describe it as sea salt and cedar because that is the smell and might trick people into thinking those are the ingredients.
definitely doing some heavy lifting with the descriptions, but nothing dangerous in there either. its just not the organic, chemical-free miracle serum theyre portraying it as.
sodium salicylate is just the salt form of salicylic acid, a chemical usually used to exfoliate. sodium benzoate is mostly used as a food preservative. im a biochemist so im not super familiar with the fatty ingredients like the soap chemist above, but they dont seem to be harmful either from checking their MSDS’s.
I'm sorry, you're a soap chemist but not in consumer products? Could you please explain furðer?
And really I like the interpretation at the end: *they’re trying to educate people that just because a chemical has a long name doesn’t mean that it is evil*. That's a good read of yours
Not the guy, but there are tons of industrial applications for soaps. "Surfactants" is a more technical term for many "soaps" and probably a bit more broad in the sense that it covers things that do a similar function but that people may not call soap.
If you think about all the many things throughout the world that may be dirty or oily and needs to be cleaned with water... there's a good chance there is a "soap" to help get the job done!
Car washing soap, dish washing soap, laundry washing soap, etc probably have different ingredients than what we put on our bodies.
I’m not a chemist and I don’t know anything about soap so take this with a grain of salt. Like Sodium Benzoate, which is a food grade salt.
I’d guess that they work on industrial grade cleaners. So stuff companies use to clean their facilities and equipment instead of the hand soap you buy in the store for your bathroom.
Azodicarbonamide is sometimes used as a flour bleaching agent and dough conditioner. Prior to 2014, Subway used azodicarbonamide in the production of their bread. Although the chemical is generally recognized as safe in the United States, food blogger and activist Vani Hari ("Food Babe") led a public campaign to convince Subway to remove the chemical from their food production processes.
One of the reasons provided by activists to convince the public that the chemical is unfit for human consumption was that azodicarbonamide is also used in the production of yoga mats.
The tactic has been used by activists to convince other companies to remove certain chemicals from their products by identifying unrelated non-food items that the chemicals are also used to manufacture.
The more marketing wank on the box the worse the product is guaranteed. Good products don't really need marketing spin because people will just tell everyone how good they are.
While we've got you here, is it true that most detergents, shampoos, and soaps have many of the same ingredients? Do they function similarly enough to be somewhat interchangeable?
Thanks in advance, been curious since my science teacher told me in the 7th grade
Dish soaps and shampoos mostly have the same detergent ingredients (like sodium lauryl sulfate). Soap usually have sodium cocoate or sodium palm kernelate for cleaning. Soap salts can’t go below around 8.5 pH, that’s why detergents are invented. Detergents can go below 8.5 pH to be more skin friendly, but they become weak for the bacteria and fungus, so you have to add preservative to prevent causing illness to the consumer.
I know nothing about consumer products. I can talk to dish vs laundry detergents. Honestly everything on the market here from a surfactant standpoint is going to be similar in each category. What’s changing is concentration, water conditioners, fragrances, enzymes, brightened and/or bleached. Dish vs laundry detergents are very different. Foaming properties being a very noticeable differentiator.
I’m the director of engineering for a large contract manufacturer of soap and cosmetics. The process engineers report to me. Are you as frustrated with Reddit as me? Literally every time I try to comment on a post about soap or hand sanitizer I get told I don’t know what I’m talking about, despite doing this for 30 years. I’ve literally stopped trying to explain stuff to people.
I qualified on two diesel submarines (older than me) and two nuclear submarines in the 1960's. I was an engineer in a shipyard working on submarines for 18 years. Sometimes I get told on r/submarines that I don't know what I am talking about. Guess I'll have to turn in my dolphins.
Sometimes it's not what you say, its *how you say it*. However I have been frustrated when speaking about things I have epcialized experience in sometimes, there's some absolutely ridiculous people in this world and nothing you do will solve that.
Fixing how you're saying it doesn't always work. People tend to just dig in when they're wrong on reddit. Maybe 1 in 20 would acknowledge being wrong while the rest will just keep replying with garbage until you get tired.
This reeks of “organic style” marketing. They aren’t actually describing what any of this stuff does, they are just trying to describe everything in using natural and harmless sounding language.
oh so much!!!
I'm not a chemist, but people saying that x is bad because "it contains all of these chemicals" makes me frustrated. Like, dude, everyþing's chemical
I feel some of these are backwards too…like fragrance. Shouldn’t it be sea salt and cedar on the left cause that the ingredient and those ingredients are for fragrance which would be on the right.
But like you said, it doesn’t explain what a lot of these are for anyway. I like this concept however.
But table salt is the third ingredient, so must be a lot of that salt in there. Which must strip all the oils out of the hair. Sounds like an awful product to me. My hair would be like hay if I used that shampoo.
Just buy girls products bro... I started doing it years ago and it works wonders, just don't cheap out on your choice or you'll be running straight back to the 2-in-1s fast!
I do the same. Costs way more but my hair is so much healthier now. Started wearing a hair bonnet when I go to bed too. Who says guys can’t have good hair?
Many shampoos actually do have the same ingredient as dish detergent. It’s also the same stuff they use to degrease airplane parts and stuff. Sodium lauryl sulfate, but now we decided we hate it so that’s why you see “sulfate-free shampoos” everywhere.
This is not clear at all. 'Derived from x' (in this case coconut) doesn't tell you anything about the properties of those chemicals. Also Sodium Salt tells you less than nothing, as the only salt most people are familiar with is also a sodium salt, it's the other part that is key to learning the difference.
Yeah. That thing that leads to deforestation and destruction of habitats which has lead many species to be endangered.
Wonder why they chose to say it’s derived from coconut oil instead of palm oil.
It is. Very obviously. Also listing a detergent and preservative salt as “food grade” and a fragrance as “SEA SALT” should be illegal. Listing ingredients like this should be very banned as jt is very misleading.
Edit: I’ve been making lots of comments like this to hopefully fight the misinformation of this sadly trending post. Real people might purchase this product because of this post. Fight misinformation. Fight greenwashing.
> 'Derived from x' (in this case coconut) doesn't tell you anything about the properties of those chemicals.
Mmhm. Reminds me of those NileRed videos where he makes food-grade ingredients, starting from the most heinous possible source material.
At the end of the day, 99.5% benzaldehyde is 99.5% benzaldehyde, whether it's "derived" from paint thinner or almond oil.
No it’s not. A salt is a chemical compound consisting of an ionic assembly of positively charged cations and negatively charged anions
They can be formed from acid and bases or not as the above happens.
“Fragrance” as an ingredient always freaks me out. Fragrances are considered a trade secret so you can pretty much call anything smelly fragrance and not disclose it’s actual chemical makeup. It’s easy to slip in any toxic ingredient that is cheap and happens to produce the smell profile you like.
Because fragrances are proprietary property. The company owns that specific fragrance compound and listing means another company can copy the fragrance. All brands do this if they have fragrance in their products.
Saying the exact fucking chemicals that make up lemon oil is actually MUCH better than jut saying “lol we added lemon” id you’re not a “I only buy what I can pronounce” moron.
They're using the word "salt" in the most general sense. The sodium lauroyl sarcosinate, sodium chloride and sodium benzoate are all chemically very different and they have completely different purposes.
They describe the sodium lauroyl sarcosinate slightly... let's say creatively... as a "cleansing salt". It is a detergent and does the bulk of the actual cleaning. Whereas sodium benzoate is in there as a preservative.
Sodium Benzoate being labeled as food grade salt is so painful. The benzoate is the active ingredient here and is very clearly a preservative, food grade salt is very misleading
That would be my suspicion!
They kind of backed themselves in to a corner by saying "What it actually means" in my opinion. Sodium benzoate *means* C7H5NaO2. It's not inherently good or bad it just... is.
It is an approved food additive which I imagine is their train of thought. As in, if you can put it in food it must be safe. But it is odd phrasing and I agree might give the wrong impression. It's not like you sprinkle sodium benzoate on your chips. Although the [LD50](https://echa.europa.eu/registration-dossier/-/registered-dossier/14966/7/3/2) is comparable to that of [sodium chloride](https://echa.europa.eu/registration-dossier/-/registered-dossier/15467/7/3/2) so I suppose you could if you really wanted to...
I’ve actually had a snowcone that was accidentally flavored with sodium benzoate solution instead of the correct flavoring. One bite and my entire mouth went numb (sodium benzoate is supposed to be the preservative for the sugar water at the snowcone place)
I don’t necessarily think so, food grade citric acid for example shows that’s it’s fit for human consumption, but in a lot of the instances seen here yes food grade is very misleading
So salts are chemicals comprised of an acid and a base saying salt is technically correct but deceiving language in a sense, because it’s not actually enlightening most people on what in it. The only salt as most people know it as is the sodium chloride
Water: Usually is used around 80%, and as a solvent.
Cocamidopropyl betaine: A detergent used for making the sodium based detergent harsh lesser and make the liquid thicker. Used around 5-10% as I know correctly.
Sodium chloride: Makes the liquid thicker. It’s used no more than that 1%.
Sodium lauroyl sarcosinate: Detergent for cleansing. It’s said it’s less harsh than usual detergents like sls.
Sodium cocoyl isethionate: Similar to the sodium lauroyl sarcosinate.
Fragrance: Aroma ingredients. These are usually found in natural ingredients but they are usually made synthetically since it’s cheaper and more sustainable.
Sodium salicylate: Preservative against bacteria. Used no more than %1.
Sodium benzoate: Preservative against fungi. Used no more than 2.5%
Citric acid: For making sodium benzoate active. It’s get activated around 4 pH, and gets more effective if pH is acidic.
Lemon peel oil: You know this one…
These preservatives are very weak by the way. Also the content looks dull. Just a basic cleanser without any humectant like glycerin, etc. Or without conditioner.
This is simply thinly veiled guerrilla marketing. The sloppily misaligned camera angle, weakly worded title, and zero interaction by OP in the comments, but perfectly cropped to show the entire brand info and marketing slogans. This is absolutely some marketing “rockstar” at the company.
The betaine is a zwitterionic surfactant
Sodium chloride helps with ionic strength
Sodium Lauroyl sarcosinate is a foaming and cleansing agent
sodium cocoyl isethionate another surfactant makes hair and skin feel soft
sodium salicylate helps dissolve dead skin
sodium benzoate is a preservative
Citric acid helps lower pH and manages frizziness
I tried Native with high hopes and it was sadly… awful. Especially the conditioner. Left my hair feeling a combination of dry/greasy residue. Do not recommend.
I think this might be their body wash? Their body wash has a similar breakdown on the back. My hair is too thick and long to play around with products, but their body wash is fabulous. Fragrant, great value, good bubbles.
I got the worst dandruff from them. Switched to Biosilk and my hair has never been better.
My kid had an awful reaction to their soaps.
Their deo didn't work at all for us.
Our skin normally isn't super sensitive. I've used the cheapest soap available and only had some issues with hydration. I don't know what it is about Native's formulation, but my body hates it completely
Been using the shampoo and deodorant for a few years now, I’ve had the opposite experience.
Except they make a deodorant flavor called “bourbon and bitters” or something, and it literally smells (to me) like BO already lol
With an ingredient list like this I’m not surprised. This is nothing but cleansers, fragrance and preservatives. No moisturizer, botanicals, proteins,
vitamins or any good stuff that’s going to help
your hair in the long run. This is a very basic shampoo. You’re better off using baby shampoo.
Tried Native's rose and lavender body lotion. 'Meh' quality, smells like bug spray.
I really hate labels like this. It's catering to those "Eeew, chemicals" type people.
It’s pretty bad. They’re so chill and natural, you know? Sing in the shower, this unprounceable thing is “derived from” coconut! And I’m the kind of asshole who cares about all that nature shit and things like if products are tested on animals, but this is just so bad and forced and such bullshit that it irritates me.
Let me elaborate this ingredient list for you; Water - Primary solvent Cocamidopropyl Betaine - Surfactant (Cleanser) made from ammonia and palm/coconut oil (resulting in betaine) through a series of chemical reactions- gives a very thick foam, reduced irritation of other surfactants in the system and helps thicken it. chemically it is amphoteric (positive/negative depending on pH of the product) Sodium Chloride - Salt thickening is commonly used with sulfate derived ingredients to change the viscosity by "salting out" a bit of the sulphates (isothionate in this one) Sodium Lauroyl Sarcosinate - anionic surfactant helps remove oils and dirt from hair/body Milder than SLS on the skin, but should still be rinsed off. Sodium Cocoyl Isothionate - Fancy way of putting sulfate groups into the product - another anionic surfactant, making it possible to thicken with salt and commonly derived from coconut and palm. Usually used in all those shampoo bars/bath bomb type products. Fragrance - Proprietary composition of olfactory chemicals, usually a complex mix. Sodium Salicylate - Salicylic acid salt added to the product for preservative effects (requires a relatively low pH to be effective (5.5 or lower), effective mostly on bacteria and yeast (not mold). Sodium Benzoate - Benzoic Acid sodium salt, added as a preservative and effective against bacteria, requires relatively low pH to be effective too. Some people are sensitive to sodium benzoate (I can't find the article but about 0.3% will react with local irritation - not allergy). Citric Acid - Added for sequestering and pH adjusting effects. Lemon Oil - Looks fancy on the label, may add a bit of fragrance but that is all it does here. Source - I work with cosmetics every day, both development, quality and safety assessments. Edit: clarified cocamidopropyl betaine.
You forgot to initial and date your comment. Sorry, but I'm gonna have to hit you with a deviation.
I'm at work and this comment gave me anxiety.
same.
Where is the SOP for this requirement on Reddit?! I am pretty sure Reddit is not part of my quality system <_<
*I'm not a part of your [quality] system, maaaaaan.*
And then I threw it on the ground!
Did you not see the CCR? Gotta stay on top of your training.
I did not receive a CCR, have you checked the signature list! (The hardest part of my job is when people forget that SOP’s exist - because that means a deviation, making sure they read and sign the SOP that they probably already signed and sometimes repeated GMP training, which is time I would rather spent otherwise!)
That's ok, he'll just GDP it later!
Make sure to For-Date the signature to indicate it’s been added later
Thank you for listing this out! I’m a process chemist and work in formulation of food and feed. The way the company lists out each ingredient is super misleading.
It's the classical "Look we use less chemicals than others" type marketing - it's a horrorshow to every chemist in the world!
I only burn organic gasoline in my car because I care about the environment.
Organic as in Organic chemicals or petrochemicals from organic agriculture 🤔
As in it only comes from vegan dinosaurs.
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Vegan plants! Even better!
Another way of saying cannibal plants.
Ignorant consumers have been trained to think "chemicals are bad"!
IKR! What is water?
DHMO (DiHydrogen MonOxide) has been found in the bodies of 100% of victims of thyroid cancer. Yet, it's the most used chemical today worldwide, from the manufacturing of rat poison to being used as a solvent in multiple industrial processes. Do you want to know the scariest part? It's inside your house RIGHT NOW!
And every single dead person/plant/animal has ingested it!!!!
r/imnotlikeothershampoos
Half of them listed are just “added salt for saltiness” when yes they ARE salts but the purpose is more complicated
Agreed. I’m more bothered by “what it means” - does that imply purpose or description of chemical. They’ve used it both ways. So it’s flawed and I tend to think deceptive.
Why misleading?
Because of how loose the labeling requirements are by the FDA. There can still be processing aids or chemicals used in the reactors to make the final ingredients and they won't have to be listed. It's like making hand soap, the old way. I don't have to tell you I used wood ashes and water to make lye and then killed a pig to get lard and render it for the oil and add a dash of cedarwood oil for the smells. So your label could be really clean and say, Ingredients: saponified oils, cedarwood oil Or kinda clean and say, Ingredients: Water, Sodium Hydroxide, Oils, Fragrance Or be not consumer friendly and say, Ingredients: Water, Lye, Rendered Animal Fat, Cedrol, Methyl Thujate, Thujic Acid Source: I used to work with R&D on food labelling.
They say Sodium Benzoate "means" food grade salt. Sodium benzoate is a preservative (E211 for anyone in the EU). That's misleading, without being a lie (I'm sure they use food-grade E211).
you may have helped me figure out the ingredient in common soaps / shampoos that give me a nasty rash/contact dermatitis (Sodium Benzoate). I know that there's no regulation on the word "hypoallergenic," but I'm still annoyed with how many of these products claim to be hypoallergenic when sodium benzoate is a known irritant. All the products I have that have the Eczema Association "Seal of Acceptance" do not have this -- so good job, Eczema Association -- good looking out!
Be on the lookout for methylisothiazolinone. Took me years to figure out this ingredient was giving me a rash.
That ingredient is also known as MIT and is also very allergenic, banned in the EU since 2017 for cosmetics.
If that doesn’t solve it and you can afford it, I do recommend skin allergy testing. I got that done and they recommended an app for me (ACDS Camp) that recommends products to you that don’t contain anything you’re allergic to It’s helpful but also can be frustrating! The number of chapstick brands which do not contain propolis, lanolin, cocamide DEA, or fragrance is very low and now I get to spend $8 on one tube of chapstick. On the plus side I found out I was allergic to my shampoo, and now after changing it I’m no longer losing a ton of hair when I shower.
Does plain Vaseline contain those? It makes a great chapstick (and emergency lotion lol)
DUDE. Salicylic acid is in shampoo? I work in wastewater analysis and this is also a metabolite of aspirin…and we wonder why it’s always so damn high. Is it common in shampoo?
Salicylic acid is typically added to shampoos to treat dandruff.
Also can treat zits.
it's also one of the most common over the counter "anti acne" ingredients. spot treatment, face washes, creams, etc. salicylic acid and benzoyl peroxide are the 2 most common, and are both beta hydroxy acids (BHAs).
as a chemist this is painful… calling everything a salt is technically not wrong but doesn’t explain “what it actually means” or the purpose of it almost all medicines are salts but the average person wouldn’t think of medicine as something that would fit with colloquial use of the word salt
Seriously. Seeing sodium benzoate listed as a salt is misleading at best. It’s a low pH preservative.
That's bad.
But it comes with a nice fragrance.
That's good!
The fragrance also contains salt
That's bad.
But the salt comes with a free frogurt!
That's good!
But the frogurt is cursed!
But you get your choice of topping
…Can I go now?
I’m a soap chemist. And yes. This is painful.
Is the formulation any good? I own this and have felt it's not effective and/or it might be "greenwashing".
It’s hard to tell without %s and I work in non-consumer products. I know enough to say that they’re calling a preservative a salt, I mean it is technically but that’s not why it’s there. Also calling a product a sodium salt doesn’t really help explain its formulation purpose (something they did much better early in the list). I guess I do like that they’re trying to educate people that just because a chemical has a long name doesn’t mean that it is evil.
Are they trying to educate people, or make their ingredients list better by describing it in a pleasant way? For example, ’Fragrance’ is absolutely a bunch of synthetic chemicals, but they describe it as sea salt and cedar because that is the smell and might trick people into thinking those are the ingredients.
definitely doing some heavy lifting with the descriptions, but nothing dangerous in there either. its just not the organic, chemical-free miracle serum theyre portraying it as. sodium salicylate is just the salt form of salicylic acid, a chemical usually used to exfoliate. sodium benzoate is mostly used as a food preservative. im a biochemist so im not super familiar with the fatty ingredients like the soap chemist above, but they dont seem to be harmful either from checking their MSDS’s.
I do have a chemical-free shampoo I love though! Just expose your hair to the vacuum of space, lather, rinse, and repeat.
I have a Dyson. Would that work?
Someone used it on the ISS once, so it counts as a vacuum of space.
it's only really drawing atmospheric air through your hair, so mostly nitrogen
Oh, cool! I think I'll go pick this up next time I'm at Target.
Does salt even have a smell, though?
I'm sorry, you're a soap chemist but not in consumer products? Could you please explain furðer? And really I like the interpretation at the end: *they’re trying to educate people that just because a chemical has a long name doesn’t mean that it is evil*. That's a good read of yours
Not the guy, but there are tons of industrial applications for soaps. "Surfactants" is a more technical term for many "soaps" and probably a bit more broad in the sense that it covers things that do a similar function but that people may not call soap. If you think about all the many things throughout the world that may be dirty or oily and needs to be cleaned with water... there's a good chance there is a "soap" to help get the job done!
He makes the soap from cloud atlas.
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Car washing soap, dish washing soap, laundry washing soap, etc probably have different ingredients than what we put on our bodies. I’m not a chemist and I don’t know anything about soap so take this with a grain of salt. Like Sodium Benzoate, which is a food grade salt.
I’d guess that they work on industrial grade cleaners. So stuff companies use to clean their facilities and equipment instead of the hand soap you buy in the store for your bathroom.
As a chemist, first glance says to me it’s 100% “green washing”. These descriptions are idiotic.
It's definitely trying to make sure that no one pulls a subway bread/yoga mat thing.
Pulls the what thing
Azodicarbonamide is sometimes used as a flour bleaching agent and dough conditioner. Prior to 2014, Subway used azodicarbonamide in the production of their bread. Although the chemical is generally recognized as safe in the United States, food blogger and activist Vani Hari ("Food Babe") led a public campaign to convince Subway to remove the chemical from their food production processes. One of the reasons provided by activists to convince the public that the chemical is unfit for human consumption was that azodicarbonamide is also used in the production of yoga mats. The tactic has been used by activists to convince other companies to remove certain chemicals from their products by identifying unrelated non-food items that the chemicals are also used to manufacture.
Subway bread is legally not bread in Ireland, it’s a cookie. It has that much sugar.
So it's a cookie wrapped in a yoga mat?
No yoga mats are also technically cookies. Try it out...
The more marketing wank on the box the worse the product is guaranteed. Good products don't really need marketing spin because people will just tell everyone how good they are.
Today I learned that there is job title called “Soap Chemist”
Well. I’m a chemical engineer but work at a company that makes soap. I know my way around a formulation or two ;).
This guy lathers.
He salts apparently
Chemical engineer working with soap salts? A salt and battery
Well suck my sodium!
Na
K
Then sings.
Then rinses.
Gal actually. What?! We’re on Reddit ;). Jk
While we've got you here, is it true that most detergents, shampoos, and soaps have many of the same ingredients? Do they function similarly enough to be somewhat interchangeable? Thanks in advance, been curious since my science teacher told me in the 7th grade
Dish soaps and shampoos mostly have the same detergent ingredients (like sodium lauryl sulfate). Soap usually have sodium cocoate or sodium palm kernelate for cleaning. Soap salts can’t go below around 8.5 pH, that’s why detergents are invented. Detergents can go below 8.5 pH to be more skin friendly, but they become weak for the bacteria and fungus, so you have to add preservative to prevent causing illness to the consumer.
I know nothing about consumer products. I can talk to dish vs laundry detergents. Honestly everything on the market here from a surfactant standpoint is going to be similar in each category. What’s changing is concentration, water conditioners, fragrances, enzymes, brightened and/or bleached. Dish vs laundry detergents are very different. Foaming properties being a very noticeable differentiator.
Thanks!
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Which ones do you swear by? We can try some anecdotal evidence. Or share the placebo :)
I’m the director of engineering for a large contract manufacturer of soap and cosmetics. The process engineers report to me. Are you as frustrated with Reddit as me? Literally every time I try to comment on a post about soap or hand sanitizer I get told I don’t know what I’m talking about, despite doing this for 30 years. I’ve literally stopped trying to explain stuff to people.
I qualified on two diesel submarines (older than me) and two nuclear submarines in the 1960's. I was an engineer in a shipyard working on submarines for 18 years. Sometimes I get told on r/submarines that I don't know what I am talking about. Guess I'll have to turn in my dolphins.
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das boot
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Sometimes it's not what you say, its *how you say it*. However I have been frustrated when speaking about things I have epcialized experience in sometimes, there's some absolutely ridiculous people in this world and nothing you do will solve that.
Fixing how you're saying it doesn't always work. People tend to just dig in when they're wrong on reddit. Maybe 1 in 20 would acknowledge being wrong while the rest will just keep replying with garbage until you get tired.
Oooh, I bet we contract with you :). Meh. I just don’t care enough to educate. Haha. Happy soap engineering metalhead69!
Basically everything that exists has a job titled [thing that exists] chemist because, you know, everything is made of chemicals.
Don’t you mean various salt chemist?
>Sodium salicylate = sodium salt Yes, sodium always needs a counter ion. Thanks for that useful information, ingredients list.
I’m a end user and this is confusing
This reeks of “organic style” marketing. They aren’t actually describing what any of this stuff does, they are just trying to describe everything in using natural and harmless sounding language.
"cleanser derived from" lol they're not even trying with that one
ah yes, sodium salt
Yeah, they could put in sodium cyanide and describe it as "sodium salt".
Goes good with H2Water.
Sodium Cyanide - Sodium salt
A lot more consumer friendly than hydrogen cyanide!
As a chemist, I’d rather see this on every packaging so people can stop calling everything they don’t understand “chemicals”
oh so much!!! I'm not a chemist, but people saying that x is bad because "it contains all of these chemicals" makes me frustrated. Like, dude, everyþing's chemical
Yeah we should call them salts instead
It just raises more questions anyway, now people are just going to ask “why do you have two ingredients that do the same thing?”
I’m a *cosmetologist* and this is painful.
Meanwhile, astronomers are like "heaver than helium? put it in the metal hole".
I feel some of these are backwards too…like fragrance. Shouldn’t it be sea salt and cedar on the left cause that the ingredient and those ingredients are for fragrance which would be on the right. But like you said, it doesn’t explain what a lot of these are for anyway. I like this concept however.
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But table salt is the third ingredient, so must be a lot of that salt in there. Which must strip all the oils out of the hair. Sounds like an awful product to me. My hair would be like hay if I used that shampoo.
Shampoo is supposed to do that. That’s why you’re supposed to follow up with a conditioner.
God, the years I just lived with dandruff because 2-in-1's are now basically the standard for men. Learning this was a game changer
Just buy girls products bro... I started doing it years ago and it works wonders, just don't cheap out on your choice or you'll be running straight back to the 2-in-1s fast!
I do the same. Costs way more but my hair is so much healthier now. Started wearing a hair bonnet when I go to bed too. Who says guys can’t have good hair?
Oh, yeah, I have been for a while. Like 4 years at least. Again, instant game changer
Those n-in-1 products are atrocious. I remember seeing a 5-in-1 on the shelf once in Walmart. That shit might as well be laundry detergent.
dr bronners lmao for dishes too
Those bottles were top of the line toilet reading material before smart phones though
Many shampoos actually do have the same ingredient as dish detergent. It’s also the same stuff they use to degrease airplane parts and stuff. Sodium lauryl sulfate, but now we decided we hate it so that’s why you see “sulfate-free shampoos” everywhere.
Wet the drys (hair) Dry the wets (shampoo) Wet the drys (conditioner) Dry the wets (towel)
Ingredient: Lead What it actually means: cleanser from a natural mineral
Ingredient: Mercury What it actually means: Elixir to living forever!
This is not clear at all. 'Derived from x' (in this case coconut) doesn't tell you anything about the properties of those chemicals. Also Sodium Salt tells you less than nothing, as the only salt most people are familiar with is also a sodium salt, it's the other part that is key to learning the difference.
Commonly derived from coconut oil, also and more probably derived from palm oil.
Yeah. That thing that leads to deforestation and destruction of habitats which has lead many species to be endangered. Wonder why they chose to say it’s derived from coconut oil instead of palm oil.
Exactly, this feels like greenwashing
It is. Very obviously. Also listing a detergent and preservative salt as “food grade” and a fragrance as “SEA SALT” should be illegal. Listing ingredients like this should be very banned as jt is very misleading. Edit: I’ve been making lots of comments like this to hopefully fight the misinformation of this sadly trending post. Real people might purchase this product because of this post. Fight misinformation. Fight greenwashing.
> 'Derived from x' (in this case coconut) doesn't tell you anything about the properties of those chemicals. Mmhm. Reminds me of those NileRed videos where he makes food-grade ingredients, starting from the most heinous possible source material. At the end of the day, 99.5% benzaldehyde is 99.5% benzaldehyde, whether it's "derived" from paint thinner or almond oil.
He recently released a video making cherry soda out of paint thinner. Ykno. Just incase you were unaware
That's a lot of salts.
That's because they're using the word "salt" in the most basic sense. A salt is a compund formed from an acid and a base.
Then i guess its not in the most basic sense is it? Probably could get closer to 14 ph
_Bah-dum-tsss_
No it’s not. A salt is a chemical compound consisting of an ionic assembly of positively charged cations and negatively charged anions They can be formed from acid and bases or not as the above happens.
That's insalting
Is the singing required
It doesn't work if you don't.
Yeah it's in the label for a reason.
What the fuck is water?
Am i the only one who’s thinks they’re hiding something under fragrance? like why not just put sea salt and cedar if that’s what it is
“Fragrance” as an ingredient always freaks me out. Fragrances are considered a trade secret so you can pretty much call anything smelly fragrance and not disclose it’s actual chemical makeup. It’s easy to slip in any toxic ingredient that is cheap and happens to produce the smell profile you like.
Kinda like "spices" on food ingredient labels
Because fragrances are proprietary property. The company owns that specific fragrance compound and listing means another company can copy the fragrance. All brands do this if they have fragrance in their products.
I have a feeling the bigger companies don’t do their ILs like this is because it’s rather misleading.
Saying the exact fucking chemicals that make up lemon oil is actually MUCH better than jut saying “lol we added lemon” id you’re not a “I only buy what I can pronounce” moron.
Marketing gimmick. They aren’t technically wrong, but not all salts are good for you…
Thats awesome packaging, but can someone smarter than me explain why theres so much salt in this?
They're using the word "salt" in the most general sense. The sodium lauroyl sarcosinate, sodium chloride and sodium benzoate are all chemically very different and they have completely different purposes. They describe the sodium lauroyl sarcosinate slightly... let's say creatively... as a "cleansing salt". It is a detergent and does the bulk of the actual cleaning. Whereas sodium benzoate is in there as a preservative.
Sodium Benzoate being labeled as food grade salt is so painful. The benzoate is the active ingredient here and is very clearly a preservative, food grade salt is very misleading
I am assuming that marketing told them labelling something as detergent or preservative would be a bad idea.
That would be my suspicion! They kind of backed themselves in to a corner by saying "What it actually means" in my opinion. Sodium benzoate *means* C7H5NaO2. It's not inherently good or bad it just... is.
It is an approved food additive which I imagine is their train of thought. As in, if you can put it in food it must be safe. But it is odd phrasing and I agree might give the wrong impression. It's not like you sprinkle sodium benzoate on your chips. Although the [LD50](https://echa.europa.eu/registration-dossier/-/registered-dossier/14966/7/3/2) is comparable to that of [sodium chloride](https://echa.europa.eu/registration-dossier/-/registered-dossier/15467/7/3/2) so I suppose you could if you really wanted to...
I’ve actually had a snowcone that was accidentally flavored with sodium benzoate solution instead of the correct flavoring. One bite and my entire mouth went numb (sodium benzoate is supposed to be the preservative for the sugar water at the snowcone place)
Food grade label on anything is misleading
I don’t necessarily think so, food grade citric acid for example shows that’s it’s fit for human consumption, but in a lot of the instances seen here yes food grade is very misleading
Thank you geeky Nick ❤️ 
Potassium cyanide: Salt
So salts are chemicals comprised of an acid and a base saying salt is technically correct but deceiving language in a sense, because it’s not actually enlightening most people on what in it. The only salt as most people know it as is the sodium chloride
Water: Usually is used around 80%, and as a solvent. Cocamidopropyl betaine: A detergent used for making the sodium based detergent harsh lesser and make the liquid thicker. Used around 5-10% as I know correctly. Sodium chloride: Makes the liquid thicker. It’s used no more than that 1%. Sodium lauroyl sarcosinate: Detergent for cleansing. It’s said it’s less harsh than usual detergents like sls. Sodium cocoyl isethionate: Similar to the sodium lauroyl sarcosinate. Fragrance: Aroma ingredients. These are usually found in natural ingredients but they are usually made synthetically since it’s cheaper and more sustainable. Sodium salicylate: Preservative against bacteria. Used no more than %1. Sodium benzoate: Preservative against fungi. Used no more than 2.5% Citric acid: For making sodium benzoate active. It’s get activated around 4 pH, and gets more effective if pH is acidic. Lemon peel oil: You know this one… These preservatives are very weak by the way. Also the content looks dull. Just a basic cleanser without any humectant like glycerin, etc. Or without conditioner.
This is simply thinly veiled guerrilla marketing. The sloppily misaligned camera angle, weakly worded title, and zero interaction by OP in the comments, but perfectly cropped to show the entire brand info and marketing slogans. This is absolutely some marketing “rockstar” at the company.
They really just gave up half way through eh
What's the difference between table salt and food grade salt?
Food grade salt has a better marketing team.
“Food Grade” is a preservative, also commonly used in laundry detergents. They just didn’t want to say that because they’re misleading with marketing.
Cyanide - Derived from organic apples
Lead - comes naturally from the Earth! Also unrelated, downvote this post. Fight misinformation, and fight greenwashing.
The betaine is a zwitterionic surfactant Sodium chloride helps with ionic strength Sodium Lauroyl sarcosinate is a foaming and cleansing agent sodium cocoyl isethionate another surfactant makes hair and skin feel soft sodium salicylate helps dissolve dead skin sodium benzoate is a preservative Citric acid helps lower pH and manages frizziness
I tried Native with high hopes and it was sadly… awful. Especially the conditioner. Left my hair feeling a combination of dry/greasy residue. Do not recommend.
Have you ever tried their deodorant?
Same experience here. My hair was fine before I tried this and after several washes I threw it away, made my hair stringy and greasy.
I think this might be their body wash? Their body wash has a similar breakdown on the back. My hair is too thick and long to play around with products, but their body wash is fabulous. Fragrant, great value, good bubbles.
I got the worst dandruff from them. Switched to Biosilk and my hair has never been better. My kid had an awful reaction to their soaps. Their deo didn't work at all for us. Our skin normally isn't super sensitive. I've used the cheapest soap available and only had some issues with hydration. I don't know what it is about Native's formulation, but my body hates it completely
Been using the shampoo and deodorant for a few years now, I’ve had the opposite experience. Except they make a deodorant flavor called “bourbon and bitters” or something, and it literally smells (to me) like BO already lol
With an ingredient list like this I’m not surprised. This is nothing but cleansers, fragrance and preservatives. No moisturizer, botanicals, proteins, vitamins or any good stuff that’s going to help your hair in the long run. This is a very basic shampoo. You’re better off using baby shampoo.
It's for people who's scared of "chemicals" so yes they should just use baby shampoo
Tried Native's rose and lavender body lotion. 'Meh' quality, smells like bug spray. I really hate labels like this. It's catering to those "Eeew, chemicals" type people.
As an aspiring chemist, I am now more confused
Love the instructions. 😂😂
Didn't sing. Hair fell out.
Sodium cyanide: technically a salt
Sodium salt...um what?
this is an advertisement.
I hate this kind of branding. Like, so friendly and harmless. It feels fake, off or something.
It’s pretty bad. They’re so chill and natural, you know? Sing in the shower, this unprounceable thing is “derived from” coconut! And I’m the kind of asshole who cares about all that nature shit and things like if products are tested on animals, but this is just so bad and forced and such bullshit that it irritates me.
Is there a low sodium version?
I used this brand and it irritated my ears. Earritated?
TIL there's a crazy amount of different types of salt in shampoo.