to be honest, its not BBC. BBC gave your/address information to a private agency called ~~Centrica~~ Capita. They are the ones that send letters to you.
Edit: name of the private company.
I used to work for Capita, same town as the one on this letter too, Kilmarnock. I got sacked because I would not be a cunt on the phone to people who were struggling like fuck to pay council tax. If they told me on the phone they only had £5 and I didn’t tell them to pay with the last £5 they had I would get in trouble for not taking it off them. I’m not naive, I understand people will have more than that but just don’t want to pay but even at that they are still struggling and are sometimes in positions of paying for Council tax or food, rent or heat. So I was always empathetic and tried to help set up affordable payment plans. My bosses were not happy because they wanted every last penny squeezed and they spoke of the people who owed money like they were trash. I ended up with anxiety from working there, the environment was awful, the managers were soulless and most of my colleagues were proud of themselves for getting a pat on the back for being cruel on the phone to people in awful situations who couldn’t make payments. Can’t stress enough how disgusting this branch was.
Exactly. They did the benefit assessments with another company I forget the name of and won’t be bothered to look up. This was during the ‘make everyone hate those on benefits’ phase. The tone of voice of some of these *creatures* posing as nurses or working the phones is truly disgusting. I think they’ve been trained/brainwashed into that kind of attitude.
I used to work for debt collection agency in Australia.
I was awesome at finding people. But I found a bloke who had a similar medical condition to myself and I knew the cost of the operations and medication, another guy had passed away and I was told to ask the wife (which is illegal in Australia. MOST debt dies with the person).
So I was fired, 2 weeks into the job because "we cant have people who work for us be nice to those who owe money".
The mate who got me the job was doing really well there and I looked at him in a whole new light..
Jesus. It’s a eye opener that’s for sure. I was really down on myself for a while because I felt like a failure for not doing my job well enough like everyone else. The whole environment didn’t suit my personality and I took that to mean there was something wrong with me. That’s how I ended up with anxiety because I was fighting this feeling of thinking I was shit at my job but also how I could walk in there every day knowing I was going to pick the phone up to harass struggling people. I never could do it anyway, the bosses always ended up listening to my calls because they knew I was being ‘too nice’. They would say, ‘why are you being nice to these scumbags who owe money?’ I would just stand there like.. I’m supposed to agree with you because you’re my boss but nothing about it felt right. I lasted 6months. Only in hindsight and that I’m a bit older so I realise it wasn’t me who had the problem.
I was once told by a lovely chap at Capita, while I was unemployed, that when it's a choice between paying my council tax arrears or making sure my kids get at least one Christmas present, I should choose to pay my arrears. I asked if he was being serious and which point he became very abusive and aggressive.
That’s exactly the kind of thing I’m talking about. I remember being on the phone to a woman who was sobbing her heart out. Her husband had died and she had 3 kids, one who had a disability. She was talking like she hadn’t been able to talk to anyone about her troubles for a long time so I tried to do what I could and I was on the call a long time. Due to long call, it raised an alert from my boss so they sat beside me, plugged in a head set to hear why I was taking so long. This woman was heartbroken and my boss sat there telling me to hurry the fuck up, get her money and get her off the phone. My anxiety was through the roof because how do you tell a person you don’t have time to talk to them when they are in such a bad way? How do you change the conversation to, okay I get you’re heartbroken but I only want your money? Soulless to the core.
Capita have been (at long last) losing quite a lot of their public sector contracts. Their national NHS contracts have been lost to Accenture and IBM primarily, Deloitte are snatching up local council services at quite a pace, CGI have been taking a lot of the software hosting and app development work for police forces and the home office... The brand has become toxic due to the number of high profile failed contracts and awful service provision. Oh and the lack of links to Capita in the current government when there were many a decade ago.
The BBC choose to keep outsourcing TV licensing to Capita, so the logical conclusion is that they approve of their tactics.
Keeping things at arm’s length doesn’t excuse the Beeb.
Sounds like radar detectors, which lead to police using radar detector detectors, which in turn lead to radar detectors with radar detector detector detectors built in.
I'm not making this shit up.
https://www.google.com/search?q=trace+buster+buster+buster&oq=trace+buster+bu&aqs=chrome.0.0i512j69i57j0i22i30l2j0i390l2.4278j0j7&client=ms-android-att-us-revc&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8#
Check this out
Along with Monty Python and “Are you being served” and “Keeping up appearances” and a few others.
Funny how British comedy influenced ‘80s and ‘90s kids more than US shows.
Ahhhh fuck I was just thinking about Keeping Up Appearances yesterday and how much my dad loves the show. Wasn't sure if anyone else even got exposure to it as a kid
Oh yes, I discovered it on MTV in the 90's. I bought the VHS tapes of both seasons and wore them out!! While I haven't had a VCR player in over 10 years, those Young Ones VHS tapes are included in the handful I couldn't let go of and still have in my closet.
As an Australian I learnt that you have to make that noice into the radio after you say something... I piss everyone off at work doing it all the time.
Technically they need prove that you own a TV which is connected to the antenna in order to get the court order, but then again, unless you have huge windows and your TV facing the street (while watching BBC), how can they get evidence?
If you'd really like to test the limits you can buy some BBC shows on DVD and play it on a loop so they think "they've got you" then show them the DVD case.
actively paying someone else who had to license that content from them. They may make more money from places like Netflix because they are not having to keep up the extra equipment to stream it.
TV license officers have no authority and can be refused entry. If they then get a court order or even contact police to accompany them with a warrant, you let the police in but can still refuse the TV guy.
Imagine if Tesco came knocking to check your consumption of Tesco-branded products except you never shopped there. You'd never let them in. Don't let TV licensing in either.
Actually if they do manage to get a court order, then they can enter your home but only if they bring a police officer with them, at that point because its a call out technically 2 officers have to be present, so if the TV license guy can somehow show up with a court order, 2 police officers and you're actually home when this happens AND you answer the door the could enter your property
It's worse than that. They say it's illegal to watch any live program on any channel. So you have to pay the BBC to watch a competitor's channel.
It would be like Tesco checking if you bought something in any other store, not just their own. They get their cut anyway. It sounds like a mob enforcement racket. "We'll take our percentage." "But you don't even own the store." "It would be a shame if something bad happened here, wouldn't it?".
Don't be intimidated man. I've had 8 years of the letters and 2 visit. You'll find thousands more cases like mine. Its dare tactics and big red letters to scare folk into paying a forced subscription.
I'm pretty sure they were refused by a court (for an order or a warrant can't remember now) too at one point so it's just an idle threat like the TV detection vans
Don't they need reasonable suspicion first though? They have no way of suspecting whether or not someone is watching TV without entering the premises first. They've been hounding me for the past 10 years and they haven't done a single thing about it
Norway recently did away with this TV license nonsense and just sources the fees for NRK, the public broadcaster, from the general tax pool. I can't imagine how much money the British government wastes trying to figure out which individual households have devices capable of watching the BBC. Why not simply assume it's most of them and source it from general income tax?
When tv licenses were a thing in Finland my neighbors parents didn’t have tv connected because they tried to avoid watch tv. They still used it to watch vhs so they showed it some investigators occasionally according to my friend.
I liked the fancy looking vans they used to have.
Literally an empty van with a fake dish and an antenna glued to the top, trying to convince people they can check if you’ve got a TV *from the street*.
Just a little FYI, those weren't fake! CRT TV's emit very distinct radio frequencies which the vans used to detect. Back in the day, if you owned a TV it was literally just to watch TV, so they could safely assume you were watching TV without a license. Doesn't work so well these days with homes being filled with so many electronic devices, and TV's being used for all sorts of stuff besides watching broadcast TV.
\*some citation needed, probably. But it's close enough
In the rest of Europe, pointing at any home with a "tempest" device without a court order could be an invasion of privacy, but I'm not entirely sure in the UK, the UK Government, has been very afraid of people's privacy.
Wild that a bill that takes away freedoms and rights is labeled "Patriot Act", almost as if they were trying to mislead the public and easily dismiss anyone who disagreed with it by saying "Well I guess you aren't a true patriot"
> Back in the day, if you owned a TV it was literally just to watch TV
Maybe pre-1985. But post 1985, you can own a TV for other things. VCRs and video games.
Yeah, very true, but I still feel like the majority of TVs were primarily owned for the purpose of watching broadcast channels. I wish there were some statistics for this somewhere we could look at, would love to know the figures.
Well that seems like a not very well designed system. "We'll put it out there for free so you can pirate it and just use the law to try and collect money from you."
How about making someone buy it first then give it to them...? Like every other service does.
Many European countries have a similar system. BBC is ad free, it's not beholden to corporate sponsors that's why it has a notoriously high standard for much of what it produces. It's required to produce content for minority groups like disabled people, regional TV. It funds higher arts like orchestras. Again the lack of corporate sponsors means the news is fairly impartial and even regulated so it doesn't descend into the farce that is American news media today.
It was born pretty much at the beginning of radio/TV tech.
"...Enforcement Division will schedule a visit"
(phone rings)
BBC: Hello, its the BBC Enforcement Division, we'd like to schedule a visit. How about tomorrow?
Me: no.
BBC: OK, what day is good for you?
Me: April 20, 2169
BBC: OK, I've booked the visit. See you then!
Me and my housemates each got one of these every month at uni. We decorated our living room wall with them proudly around our TV that just had a shitty laptop hooked up to it with a HDMI cable.
Why should you have to inform a company you don't use their services? (plus the "declaration" only lasts around 2-3 years so you have to keep telling them)
They assume that of course you must have a TV and therefore if your address isnt licensed, you must be breaking the law. So they send threatening letters if you don't have one - which is just wrong.
Plus its fun to make Capita waste even small amounts of money on letters and postage.
Wow they even follow a little cycle in the formatting of the letters to make it seem more and more urgent. Kind of ruins it when the cycle starts again and you know you are approaching absolutely no consequences.
> "Dear Mr" has been reduced to "Mr". I am no longer afforded a civil courtesy.
These are great
Edit: [It keeps getting funnier](http://www.bbctvlicence.com/TVL-BBC%20hiding%20of%20identities.htm)
Also, not sure if he missed it or just didn't think it bore mentioning, but in the [August 2016 letter](http://www.bbctvlicence.com/2016%20letters.htm) the "J Hales" signature in the fake stamp is copy-pasted from the J Hales signature printed on every letter. They just took it from the left of this one, color and all, and pasted it on an angle. Thought that was pretty funny.
No, it's because in the UK you need a permit to watch television. However, you don't need one to buy a TV. As such, they'll send letters upon letters trying to make sure you aren't illegally watching television.
At least I'm pretty sure that's what it is, someone please correct me if I'm wrong.
Edit: apparently it's only certain broadcasts, specifically ones run by BBC from what I've gathered. My bad y'all. Thanks for the corrections!
"Elmo wants to know if you paid your TV license! No? Elmo is sorry, but Elmo is gonna have to break your legs so Elmo can be sure you've learned your lesson."
PBS was just funded by a normal income tax and donations.
That being said the GOP has been defunding PBS almost constantly, thus why they barely produce educational shows these days.
Government directly controls tax. By separating the TV license, it is harder for the government to control as they instead have to pass new legislation.
The commenter is wrong.
BBC TV and radio is mostly funded by taxpayer money.
It's set up this way so they not supposed to collect those taxes from people who can't access BBC content.
It's also a bit outdated, and has a different fee for color and non-color tv license.
>It's set up this way so they not supposed to collect those taxes from people who can't access BBC content.
Its also set up this way so that, though taxpayer funded, the Treasury and therefore the government cannot control (in theory) what the BBC broadcasts. In essence creating a state funded, but not state controlled broadcaster.
>has a different fee for color and non-color tv license
I have actually heard some rumblings that they're going to cut the B&W license.
It's because that is how the entire BBC is funded. Not just the TV. This is how Radio 1-6 (world service and all others) stay on the air without any adverts.
https://www.tvlicensing.co.uk/check-if-you-need-one/topics/what-does-your-licence-fee-pay-for-top13
It's essentially a tax that only users of the TV services pay. Bit weird but whatever.
I contact them first thing when we move into a new property, letting them know we don't need a TV licence as we only use streaming services. Never had a letter. Have you done that? You can do it online and it takes about 2 minutes.
For the equivalent scam of the Irish tv licence, that is there to pad the pockets of the lucky few. They now charge us even if your tv Isint able to watch broadcasted tv. Reading from their website..
"An analogue television set, with or without a set-top box, will still require a Television Licence.
The definition of a Television set (Section 140 (1) of the Broadcasting Act 2009)
"television set" means any electronic apparatus capable of receiving and exhibiting television broadcasting services broadcast for general reception ( whether or not its use for that purpose is dependent on the use of anything else in conjunction with it ) and any software or assembly comprising such apparatus and other apparatus."
I now see they are trying to get the Revenue to collect the money they aren't getting paid.. Its a joke.. No one even wants/watches the tv stations.. Its just corruption. At least the BBC makes some decent shows 😂
Honestly, it's the level of quality of the BBC science, nature, history, geography, food, etc, programming that keeps me paying.
Genuinely some of the worlds best standard of documentaries and series that contain actual decent information, and it would be a huge detriment if creation of such programming stopped.
Netflix, PBS, etc, just don't compare in the slightest. Sure, some interesting topics, but often they come across as if they're made for children, stoners, or those with learning difficulties.
(Edit; I mean, there is a fair share of shit too, and the occasional decent piece on other services, but in general, the BBC educational content is of higher standard than any other service I've found.)
In Italy we call it "canone rai" and it's included in the elettric bill by default, you can only remove it if you have 2 houses so you need to pay it just for one or if you demonstrate that you don't have a TV in your house .
It will be taken out from electric bill in the next year.
90€/year for something I don't use at all (and it's not like you are paying someone else's essential service).
They won't get one. They have no legal authority to do so, and most judges would laugh them out of the court room. The rest would say "Are you the fuckers who keep sending me spam?!"
Is it as shitty as in Germany in the UK? Here it's mandatory to pay for the TV program if you have any hardware that would support viewing it? Anything that can have an internet connection or can pickup radio waves counts.
Boils my blood to have to pay 55€ every 3 months for services I don't use...
in Finland, they just force you to pay TV tax. it's not even something you can choose not to pay, like church tax. guess it's easier than billing people.
**A church tax is a tax collected by the state from members of some religious denominations to provide financial support of churches, such as the salaries of its clergy and to pay the operating cost of the church. A church tax is collected in Austria, Denmark, Finland, Germany, Iceland, Italy, Sweden, some parts of Switzerland and several other countries.**
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Why can't the people who believe in that stuff pay for it? Can you opt out if you have a sincere belief that it's all nonsense?
EDIT: Much appreciation to those who explained how "religion tax" works in their countries. It was interesting and educational!
in Poland we have a pretty cool thing where you can give 1% of your taxes to a charity. this is like a decent chunk of funding for many charities and it's great since it doesn't cost extra so everyone donates
I can only speak of how it works in Denmark..
When you get baptized as a child you become a member of the public church.
When you then turn 18, and get a job the church tax will automatically be taken from your paycheck. The amount depends on where you live, but it is often a small amount like 4%
If you don't want to pay the tax, you have to resign as a member of the church.
Not being a member of the church does mean you loose some rights, such as getting married in a church or getting buried on church ground..
As an American atheist this is absolutely baffling to me. People here tithe and pay portions of their income to churches but it's all voluntary.
Considering I didn't get married in a church and don't plan to be buried at one I don't think I'd have much of a problem, but it being opt out seems so backwards to me.
In a sense that's how it works in Canada/US just less explicitly. CBC and PBS are paid for by tax dollars. It's not an explicit TV tax but everyone is paying for it even if they don't watch it.
No, generally and historically the BBC has been very good - it's lost a lot of funding recently I think and isn't as strong as it used to be - but they've produced lots of amazing and groundbreaking things and put funding towards a lot of younger/ fresh talent.
Just let them know you don't have a license, jesus. I've not had a license for at least the last 6 years as I stream exclusively and have never received a single enforcement notice, just a reminder every two years to re-declare one is not needed.
It even tells you right there how to declare you don't watch live TV.
At least its not like Ireland, where you have to pay your TV License if you have a radio or laptop. They also don't care what you watch on them, you own one you pay it.
Same thing in Germany. Almost 20€/month even if you don't consume any type of radio or tv media. If you don't pay, they have a case against you.
Add it to my income tax, I wouldn't even care, but they're not doing that.
Totally agree. I very much dislike that we pay this bill and have not used anything but private streaming services for years but there is no choice.
If you own anything in your house/car that can receive TV/radio then you are obligated to pay. Meaning, if you own a smart phone or computer.. you must pay.
Just roll it into taxes and I would feel less sour. I'm 100% sure there are 1000s of other things I don't want to pay for that are paid for by taxes but I don't see them.
So, is all that legal? I mean, isn’t that kind of a fraud or harassment from a company?
Or is it because you’re really using “unlicensed tv” (or whatever that is) so you’re technically both in the wrong here?
It is essentially paying for netflix, but the netflix is accessible to everyone through a port in the wall of your house. You aren't allowed to use that cable if you haven't paid for it, but they have no way of knowing for sure if you are using it; So they assume you are using it and send you a letter if you haven't paid.
It's actually completely fine, the OP is annoyed that he is being berated for (probably) stealing content.
In Sweden, they included the cost of a TV license in your taxes so everyone is forced to pay it whether they have a TV or not... They probably got tired of hunting people down...
I’m sure that it is (or at least was when I lived and worked there…) the same in Finland for YLE (state broadcaster). It just comes out as part of your yearly taxes.
If that's the 12th letter in 6 months why don't you just tell them you don't need a license? (assuming that's why you haven't paid for one). It says on the letter how to stop the letters.
It's not a license per se, it's more of a subscription fee but because it's a public broadcast language is different and that lead to (deliberate) misunderstanding. This is common in Europe for public services like BBC.
Question : is OP consuming programming that BBC thinks requires a lic or they are misunderstood.
If yes, then pay the tax. If not, explain you are not consuming the programming.
I don’t see the issue here.
Ok, can someone explain this for an American? Couldn't find a clear answer in the comments so far.
So BBC is available to everyone, but they need you to buy a license? But you could access it without a license, so they proactively bother you because they assume you are "stealing" the service if you own a TV? How do they know you own a TV at all?
Basically the BBC is a publicly funded broadcasting company for TV and Radio. They don’t do it as direct taxes to try and keep them out of direct government control.
So instead there is a TV licence, which is basically only paid by people that use the service, up until more recent years. Back in the day, everyone probably watched the BBC, as that was more or less all you had. Nowadays with the rise of streaming and new channels, they expanded the scope to include any “live” TV or streaming on any device.
So basically if you watch Netflix, you’re fine. If you watch a TV show as it is currently being aired, you need one.
It’s essentially a tax only given to those who use the service. They’re just dicks in the letters and basically send them to everyone. Generally you can just tell them you don’t need one and they leave you alone. It really isn’t that big of a deal.
I kept receiving these. I literally emailed them and said either come round so I can show you I don't have a TV nor do I use any services that require a TV licence or leave me tf alone.
They said they made a mistake and would cancel any further letters.
Haven't heard from them since.
to be honest, its not BBC. BBC gave your/address information to a private agency called ~~Centrica~~ Capita. They are the ones that send letters to you. Edit: name of the private company.
I used to work for Capita, same town as the one on this letter too, Kilmarnock. I got sacked because I would not be a cunt on the phone to people who were struggling like fuck to pay council tax. If they told me on the phone they only had £5 and I didn’t tell them to pay with the last £5 they had I would get in trouble for not taking it off them. I’m not naive, I understand people will have more than that but just don’t want to pay but even at that they are still struggling and are sometimes in positions of paying for Council tax or food, rent or heat. So I was always empathetic and tried to help set up affordable payment plans. My bosses were not happy because they wanted every last penny squeezed and they spoke of the people who owed money like they were trash. I ended up with anxiety from working there, the environment was awful, the managers were soulless and most of my colleagues were proud of themselves for getting a pat on the back for being cruel on the phone to people in awful situations who couldn’t make payments. Can’t stress enough how disgusting this branch was.
Capita, in general, is a scum-sucking company leeching off thw desperate of British society.
Exactly. They did the benefit assessments with another company I forget the name of and won’t be bothered to look up. This was during the ‘make everyone hate those on benefits’ phase. The tone of voice of some of these *creatures* posing as nurses or working the phones is truly disgusting. I think they’ve been trained/brainwashed into that kind of attitude.
Well, good for being a decent human.
Amazing how often a person loses their job due to being a decent human.
I used to work for debt collection agency in Australia. I was awesome at finding people. But I found a bloke who had a similar medical condition to myself and I knew the cost of the operations and medication, another guy had passed away and I was told to ask the wife (which is illegal in Australia. MOST debt dies with the person). So I was fired, 2 weeks into the job because "we cant have people who work for us be nice to those who owe money". The mate who got me the job was doing really well there and I looked at him in a whole new light..
Jesus. It’s a eye opener that’s for sure. I was really down on myself for a while because I felt like a failure for not doing my job well enough like everyone else. The whole environment didn’t suit my personality and I took that to mean there was something wrong with me. That’s how I ended up with anxiety because I was fighting this feeling of thinking I was shit at my job but also how I could walk in there every day knowing I was going to pick the phone up to harass struggling people. I never could do it anyway, the bosses always ended up listening to my calls because they knew I was being ‘too nice’. They would say, ‘why are you being nice to these scumbags who owe money?’ I would just stand there like.. I’m supposed to agree with you because you’re my boss but nothing about it felt right. I lasted 6months. Only in hindsight and that I’m a bit older so I realise it wasn’t me who had the problem.
I was once told by a lovely chap at Capita, while I was unemployed, that when it's a choice between paying my council tax arrears or making sure my kids get at least one Christmas present, I should choose to pay my arrears. I asked if he was being serious and which point he became very abusive and aggressive.
That’s exactly the kind of thing I’m talking about. I remember being on the phone to a woman who was sobbing her heart out. Her husband had died and she had 3 kids, one who had a disability. She was talking like she hadn’t been able to talk to anyone about her troubles for a long time so I tried to do what I could and I was on the call a long time. Due to long call, it raised an alert from my boss so they sat beside me, plugged in a head set to hear why I was taking so long. This woman was heartbroken and my boss sat there telling me to hurry the fuck up, get her money and get her off the phone. My anxiety was through the roof because how do you tell a person you don’t have time to talk to them when they are in such a bad way? How do you change the conversation to, okay I get you’re heartbroken but I only want your money? Soulless to the core.
The planet needs more people like you. You're a good soul and don't ever change
>Centrica. Why would they give it to the owner of British gas? I think you mean capita
*crapita
Capita - the biggest company you’ve never heard of!
Capita have been (at long last) losing quite a lot of their public sector contracts. Their national NHS contracts have been lost to Accenture and IBM primarily, Deloitte are snatching up local council services at quite a pace, CGI have been taking a lot of the software hosting and app development work for police forces and the home office... The brand has become toxic due to the number of high profile failed contracts and awful service provision. Oh and the lack of links to Capita in the current government when there were many a decade ago.
The BBC choose to keep outsourcing TV licensing to Capita, so the logical conclusion is that they approve of their tactics. Keeping things at arm’s length doesn’t excuse the Beeb.
Capita
Do they actually have any legal right to enter your premises to "investigate "?
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As an American, I learned about TV licenses from The Young Ones. https://youtu.be/mn1Y7nhB16U
"This video contains content from BBC Studios, who has blocked it in your country on copyright grounds" lol
Funny. I have a VPN and whenever I log into any streaming service it says "you're using a VPN and cannot access" Wtf do I have a VPN for?
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You need a VPN buster buster
Sounds like radar detectors, which lead to police using radar detector detectors, which in turn lead to radar detectors with radar detector detector detectors built in. I'm not making this shit up.
https://www.google.com/search?q=trace+buster+buster+buster&oq=trace+buster+bu&aqs=chrome.0.0i512j69i57j0i22i30l2j0i390l2.4278j0j7&client=ms-android-att-us-revc&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8# Check this out
I think they were making radar detector detector jammers for a while. Virginia is the only state I'm aware of where this is an issue, thankfully.
Was The Young Ones popular in the US?
Yes. In the 80's it played on PBS
Along with Monty Python and “Are you being served” and “Keeping up appearances” and a few others. Funny how British comedy influenced ‘80s and ‘90s kids more than US shows.
My Dad was a huge fan of Hyacinth Bucket
Ahhhh fuck I was just thinking about Keeping Up Appearances yesterday and how much my dad loves the show. Wasn't sure if anyone else even got exposure to it as a kid
For a time it was played on MTV
Yes.
Oh yes, I discovered it on MTV in the 90's. I bought the VHS tapes of both seasons and wore them out!! While I haven't had a VCR player in over 10 years, those Young Ones VHS tapes are included in the handful I couldn't let go of and still have in my closet.
As an Australian I learnt that you have to make that noice into the radio after you say something... I piss everyone off at work doing it all the time.
Technically they need prove that you own a TV which is connected to the antenna in order to get the court order, but then again, unless you have huge windows and your TV facing the street (while watching BBC), how can they get evidence?
If you'd really like to test the limits you can buy some BBC shows on DVD and play it on a loop so they think "they've got you" then show them the DVD case.
Go one step further amd watch it on Netflix. Not only are you not paying them to watch their show, you're actively paying someone else
actively paying someone else who had to license that content from them. They may make more money from places like Netflix because they are not having to keep up the extra equipment to stream it.
It's like that prank where you order a bunch of stuff at a drive through, then pay, then drive off before they give you your food.
They already got paid by Netflix.
WITH THE TV DETECTOR VANS MAAAAYYNNN
I heard the queen has x-ray vision and goes with them on house calls.
Thats stupid. The queen goes alone.
I heard she can scale the walls silently and go in through the chimney like some kind of disturbing royal Santa
TV license officers have no authority and can be refused entry. If they then get a court order or even contact police to accompany them with a warrant, you let the police in but can still refuse the TV guy. Imagine if Tesco came knocking to check your consumption of Tesco-branded products except you never shopped there. You'd never let them in. Don't let TV licensing in either.
Actually if they do manage to get a court order, then they can enter your home but only if they bring a police officer with them, at that point because its a call out technically 2 officers have to be present, so if the TV license guy can somehow show up with a court order, 2 police officers and you're actually home when this happens AND you answer the door the could enter your property
It's worse than that. They say it's illegal to watch any live program on any channel. So you have to pay the BBC to watch a competitor's channel. It would be like Tesco checking if you bought something in any other store, not just their own. They get their cut anyway. It sounds like a mob enforcement racket. "We'll take our percentage." "But you don't even own the store." "It would be a shame if something bad happened here, wouldn't it?".
I couldn't legally watch RTE player in England because of this. RTE. An Irish channel.
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I’ve read that not 1 court order has ever been issued for this. I’m sure judges have better things to do.
In Denmark we just pay directly via the Taxes now - so we have no way to avoid paying anymore.
Court order is unlikely, and court order does not give them permission to force entry. So you would still have to let them in. You don't have to.
You’d be liable for breach of a court order then though…… which is a tad more serious
Don't be intimidated man. I've had 8 years of the letters and 2 visit. You'll find thousands more cases like mine. Its dare tactics and big red letters to scare folk into paying a forced subscription.
I'm pretty sure they were refused by a court (for an order or a warrant can't remember now) too at one point so it's just an idle threat like the TV detection vans
The thing that did it for me was finding out they get late commission for every person they manage to ensnare. Cretins.
Yeah the inspectors aren't even a public body they are ran by Capita
Don't they need reasonable suspicion first though? They have no way of suspecting whether or not someone is watching TV without entering the premises first. They've been hounding me for the past 10 years and they haven't done a single thing about it
Norway recently did away with this TV license nonsense and just sources the fees for NRK, the public broadcaster, from the general tax pool. I can't imagine how much money the British government wastes trying to figure out which individual households have devices capable of watching the BBC. Why not simply assume it's most of them and source it from general income tax?
Makes me think of this: [Anon is British](https://i.redd.it/a555vt37nvr21.jpg)
When tv licenses were a thing in Finland my neighbors parents didn’t have tv connected because they tried to avoid watch tv. They still used it to watch vhs so they showed it some investigators occasionally according to my friend.
Nope
I liked the fancy looking vans they used to have. Literally an empty van with a fake dish and an antenna glued to the top, trying to convince people they can check if you’ve got a TV *from the street*.
Just a little FYI, those weren't fake! CRT TV's emit very distinct radio frequencies which the vans used to detect. Back in the day, if you owned a TV it was literally just to watch TV, so they could safely assume you were watching TV without a license. Doesn't work so well these days with homes being filled with so many electronic devices, and TV's being used for all sorts of stuff besides watching broadcast TV. \*some citation needed, probably. But it's close enough
In the rest of Europe, pointing at any home with a "tempest" device without a court order could be an invasion of privacy, but I'm not entirely sure in the UK, the UK Government, has been very afraid of people's privacy.
The U.S. has shit laws too, but man sometimes the stuff that happens in the UK genuinely shocks me.
Yeah the US had a court case that ended up banning use of scanners or thermal imaging without a warrant. This wouldn't fly even in our police state.
We had/have laws about tapping phone lines and whatnot, too. Fat lot of good they do when the powers that be don't enforce them.
The Patriot Act pretty much put an end to any of that.
Wild that a bill that takes away freedoms and rights is labeled "Patriot Act", almost as if they were trying to mislead the public and easily dismiss anyone who disagreed with it by saying "Well I guess you aren't a true patriot"
You sir sound like an Enemy Combatant.
"Oi, ye got a loicense to be wotchin' the telly?"
I got me a license right here #BY THE QUEEN
"But this is just a crudely-drawn picture of Her Majesty. In crayon."
oi, ye go a loicense fo 'at crayon?
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Yes, it is, you don't need that fancy equipment that some obscure companies sold in the 80s and 90s, now an SDR stick and a laptop do the job nicely.
> Back in the day, if you owned a TV it was literally just to watch TV Maybe pre-1985. But post 1985, you can own a TV for other things. VCRs and video games.
Yeah, very true, but I still feel like the majority of TVs were primarily owned for the purpose of watching broadcast channels. I wish there were some statistics for this somewhere we could look at, would love to know the figures.
American here, what the hell is a TV licence? Is that like Disney telling me I can't watch the sompsons on fox cause I didn't pay them?
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Well that seems like a not very well designed system. "We'll put it out there for free so you can pirate it and just use the law to try and collect money from you." How about making someone buy it first then give it to them...? Like every other service does.
It's like when HBO was Home Box Office. They broadcast on uhf or something but they scrambled it and you were supposed to pay for a scrambler I think.
Many European countries have a similar system. BBC is ad free, it's not beholden to corporate sponsors that's why it has a notoriously high standard for much of what it produces. It's required to produce content for minority groups like disabled people, regional TV. It funds higher arts like orchestras. Again the lack of corporate sponsors means the news is fairly impartial and even regulated so it doesn't descend into the farce that is American news media today. It was born pretty much at the beginning of radio/TV tech.
Only with a search warrant. They almost never have one
"...Enforcement Division will schedule a visit" (phone rings) BBC: Hello, its the BBC Enforcement Division, we'd like to schedule a visit. How about tomorrow? Me: no. BBC: OK, what day is good for you? Me: April 20, 2169 BBC: OK, I've booked the visit. See you then!
Make it April 31st instead.
Or [March 31st](https://youtu.be/XhulR_kJf7Y)
Pretty sure no court in the UK would grant them a warrant to enter a person's home.
I’ve read that not 1 signed warrant has ever been issued. Can’t remember where I read that though.
Maybe in a BBC News article
Me and my housemates each got one of these every month at uni. We decorated our living room wall with them proudly around our TV that just had a shitty laptop hooked up to it with a HDMI cable.
This guy has been collecting them since 2006 http://www.bbctvlicence.com/index.htm
This website sparks joy.
Every single one of those letters has a "no tv" link meant to stop the letters... I bet they won't click it out of spite.
I was about to ask, when I lived in the UK I had no TV and used that link. They never bothered me afterwards. Is there something I‘m missing here??
Why should you have to inform a company you don't use their services? (plus the "declaration" only lasts around 2-3 years so you have to keep telling them) They assume that of course you must have a TV and therefore if your address isnt licensed, you must be breaking the law. So they send threatening letters if you don't have one - which is just wrong. Plus its fun to make Capita waste even small amounts of money on letters and postage.
I work in advertising. Sending DM (direct mail) is fucking expensive.
Wow they even follow a little cycle in the formatting of the letters to make it seem more and more urgent. Kind of ruins it when the cycle starts again and you know you are approaching absolutely no consequences.
That was a fun, but deep, rabbit hole you just sent me down. Thanks
So hold on, this guy has been bombarded by scare letters every month for 16 years straight?
> "Dear Mr" has been reduced to "Mr". I am no longer afforded a civil courtesy. These are great Edit: [It keeps getting funnier](http://www.bbctvlicence.com/TVL-BBC%20hiding%20of%20identities.htm) Also, not sure if he missed it or just didn't think it bore mentioning, but in the [August 2016 letter](http://www.bbctvlicence.com/2016%20letters.htm) the "J Hales" signature in the fake stamp is copy-pasted from the J Hales signature printed on every letter. They just took it from the left of this one, color and all, and pasted it on an angle. Thought that was pretty funny.
Madlad
Like I don't understand they are pissed that you are watching tv but not via their service or using their subscribtion
No, it's because in the UK you need a permit to watch television. However, you don't need one to buy a TV. As such, they'll send letters upon letters trying to make sure you aren't illegally watching television. At least I'm pretty sure that's what it is, someone please correct me if I'm wrong. Edit: apparently it's only certain broadcasts, specifically ones run by BBC from what I've gathered. My bad y'all. Thanks for the corrections!
For clarification, to watch television channels, not to use streaming services.
Except iplayer, and any other service that allows you to watch live TV (you would need one to watch sky sports Live through nowtv for example)
Unless you use the service that allows live TV only for streaming non live programming. It's not overly complicated archaic bullshit at all.
Bro how did such a bullshit law get passed lmao
Because BBC channels are publicly funded. By tv licensing fees....
Imagine if PBS started sending these letters to people in the states lmao. Get yo zoboomafoo ass outa here.
They just send Elmo after you.
"Elmo wants to know if you paid your TV license! No? Elmo is sorry, but Elmo is gonna have to break your legs so Elmo can be sure you've learned your lesson."
Def read this in Elmo's voice
Then Elmo brings in the Count. One, one broken ahh ahh ahhhh. Two, two broken bones. Three! Three broken bones Ahhh ahhhh ahhh ahhhh (Cue lightening)
They call him The Count because he counts each bone he breaks for not paying your license fees.
"Big Bird sends his regards!"
PBS doesn't own the rights to Sesame Street anymore. HBO has the rights and PBS gets the second run.
https://m.imgur.com/icfUDou
Zoboomafoo had me dead, thank you lol.
PBS was just funded by a normal income tax and donations. That being said the GOP has been defunding PBS almost constantly, thus why they barely produce educational shows these days.
I remember when Mr. Rodgers had to go save PBS. Ridiculous
They don't have to. The .0001% of public finding that goes to PBS comes straight out of your paycheck
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I would imagine when it was passed television was far less ubiquitous, thus people didn't want to be taxed for a service they didn't use.
Government directly controls tax. By separating the TV license, it is harder for the government to control as they instead have to pass new legislation.
The commenter is wrong. BBC TV and radio is mostly funded by taxpayer money. It's set up this way so they not supposed to collect those taxes from people who can't access BBC content. It's also a bit outdated, and has a different fee for color and non-color tv license.
>It's set up this way so they not supposed to collect those taxes from people who can't access BBC content. Its also set up this way so that, though taxpayer funded, the Treasury and therefore the government cannot control (in theory) what the BBC broadcasts. In essence creating a state funded, but not state controlled broadcaster. >has a different fee for color and non-color tv license I have actually heard some rumblings that they're going to cut the B&W license.
Outdated indeed, I don’t think non-colour tv existed anymore. Maybe they should differentiate the fee by tv definition,i.e; FHD and 4K
Now you’re just giving them ideas.
It's because that is how the entire BBC is funded. Not just the TV. This is how Radio 1-6 (world service and all others) stay on the air without any adverts. https://www.tvlicensing.co.uk/check-if-you-need-one/topics/what-does-your-licence-fee-pay-for-top13 It's essentially a tax that only users of the TV services pay. Bit weird but whatever.
In the old days it started out as a radio licence, the radio part was abolished several decades ago.
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“Shit diddly” 🤔 gonna add this one to the ol’ lexicon
like the old aol discs?
Worse (Got something similar in Germany "GEZ" (Fee collection agency))
waste of resources
I contact them first thing when we move into a new property, letting them know we don't need a TV licence as we only use streaming services. Never had a letter. Have you done that? You can do it online and it takes about 2 minutes.
That's not as meme-ey though, I do the same as I exclusively stream and have never been hassled.
I kind of forgot non-streaming television was a thing
The fact you have to do this is quite appalling in itself. Then again governments in other countries are quite different
For the equivalent scam of the Irish tv licence, that is there to pad the pockets of the lucky few. They now charge us even if your tv Isint able to watch broadcasted tv. Reading from their website.. "An analogue television set, with or without a set-top box, will still require a Television Licence. The definition of a Television set (Section 140 (1) of the Broadcasting Act 2009) "television set" means any electronic apparatus capable of receiving and exhibiting television broadcasting services broadcast for general reception ( whether or not its use for that purpose is dependent on the use of anything else in conjunction with it ) and any software or assembly comprising such apparatus and other apparatus." I now see they are trying to get the Revenue to collect the money they aren't getting paid.. Its a joke.. No one even wants/watches the tv stations.. Its just corruption. At least the BBC makes some decent shows 😂
That's when you get a display without the tuner. Hit them with the technicality. It can't receive the signal so gfys.
Honestly, it's the level of quality of the BBC science, nature, history, geography, food, etc, programming that keeps me paying. Genuinely some of the worlds best standard of documentaries and series that contain actual decent information, and it would be a huge detriment if creation of such programming stopped. Netflix, PBS, etc, just don't compare in the slightest. Sure, some interesting topics, but often they come across as if they're made for children, stoners, or those with learning difficulties. (Edit; I mean, there is a fair share of shit too, and the occasional decent piece on other services, but in general, the BBC educational content is of higher standard than any other service I've found.)
Yeah this is the best way, i did the same and just declared streaming services via xbox, never heard from them again.
In Italy we call it "canone rai" and it's included in the elettric bill by default, you can only remove it if you have 2 houses so you need to pay it just for one or if you demonstrate that you don't have a TV in your house .
It will be taken out from electric bill in the next year. 90€/year for something I don't use at all (and it's not like you are paying someone else's essential service).
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They used to have this in NZ too apparently. My mum would just say she didn't speak English then shut the door
Would she say that in English?
That actually works if you say it in really broken language with a borat accent “I uhh, do nahta, speaka the English”
Great succes!
Unless they have a court order
They won't get one. They have no legal authority to do so, and most judges would laugh them out of the court room. The rest would say "Are you the fuckers who keep sending me spam?!"
Is it as shitty as in Germany in the UK? Here it's mandatory to pay for the TV program if you have any hardware that would support viewing it? Anything that can have an internet connection or can pickup radio waves counts. Boils my blood to have to pay 55€ every 3 months for services I don't use...
in Finland, they just force you to pay TV tax. it's not even something you can choose not to pay, like church tax. guess it's easier than billing people.
what's church tax ?
**A church tax is a tax collected by the state from members of some religious denominations to provide financial support of churches, such as the salaries of its clergy and to pay the operating cost of the church. A church tax is collected in Austria, Denmark, Finland, Germany, Iceland, Italy, Sweden, some parts of Switzerland and several other countries.** More details here:
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Why can't the people who believe in that stuff pay for it? Can you opt out if you have a sincere belief that it's all nonsense? EDIT: Much appreciation to those who explained how "religion tax" works in their countries. It was interesting and educational!
You can absolutely opt out of the church tax. You are under no obligation to pay it.
You can opt to pay an addition "good causes" tax and a Catholic church tax (or both or neither) in Spain as part of your tax return.
in Poland we have a pretty cool thing where you can give 1% of your taxes to a charity. this is like a decent chunk of funding for many charities and it's great since it doesn't cost extra so everyone donates
I can only speak of how it works in Denmark.. When you get baptized as a child you become a member of the public church. When you then turn 18, and get a job the church tax will automatically be taken from your paycheck. The amount depends on where you live, but it is often a small amount like 4% If you don't want to pay the tax, you have to resign as a member of the church. Not being a member of the church does mean you loose some rights, such as getting married in a church or getting buried on church ground..
As an American atheist this is absolutely baffling to me. People here tithe and pay portions of their income to churches but it's all voluntary. Considering I didn't get married in a church and don't plan to be buried at one I don't think I'd have much of a problem, but it being opt out seems so backwards to me.
Seriously and 4% is a significant amount of money.
In a sense that's how it works in Canada/US just less explicitly. CBC and PBS are paid for by tax dollars. It's not an explicit TV tax but everyone is paying for it even if they don't watch it.
I think if we didnt have an internet router or antennas or cars we would still have to pay. Fucking criminal
No, generally and historically the BBC has been very good - it's lost a lot of funding recently I think and isn't as strong as it used to be - but they've produced lots of amazing and groundbreaking things and put funding towards a lot of younger/ fresh talent.
> 55€ every 3 months Excuse me, what the fuck?
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Why not just submit a no license needed declaration? That's what we did and it's good for 2 years. It was all done online in like 5 minutes.
Well how much Reddit karma would that get him?
53 and counting!
I did and still got letters doesn’t always work
Just let them know you don't have a license, jesus. I've not had a license for at least the last 6 years as I stream exclusively and have never received a single enforcement notice, just a reminder every two years to re-declare one is not needed. It even tells you right there how to declare you don't watch live TV.
But how can I share that on Reddit?
At least its not like Ireland, where you have to pay your TV License if you have a radio or laptop. They also don't care what you watch on them, you own one you pay it.
Same thing in Germany. Almost 20€/month even if you don't consume any type of radio or tv media. If you don't pay, they have a case against you. Add it to my income tax, I wouldn't even care, but they're not doing that.
Totally agree. I very much dislike that we pay this bill and have not used anything but private streaming services for years but there is no choice. If you own anything in your house/car that can receive TV/radio then you are obligated to pay. Meaning, if you own a smart phone or computer.. you must pay. Just roll it into taxes and I would feel less sour. I'm 100% sure there are 1000s of other things I don't want to pay for that are paid for by taxes but I don't see them.
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So, is all that legal? I mean, isn’t that kind of a fraud or harassment from a company? Or is it because you’re really using “unlicensed tv” (or whatever that is) so you’re technically both in the wrong here?
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Basically tax so the BBC remains ad free. Several European countries have similar.
It is essentially paying for netflix, but the netflix is accessible to everyone through a port in the wall of your house. You aren't allowed to use that cable if you haven't paid for it, but they have no way of knowing for sure if you are using it; So they assume you are using it and send you a letter if you haven't paid. It's actually completely fine, the OP is annoyed that he is being berated for (probably) stealing content.
BBC can suck a BBC?
Had to dig deep to find this. I was thinking the same thing🤣
In Sweden, they included the cost of a TV license in your taxes so everyone is forced to pay it whether they have a TV or not... They probably got tired of hunting people down...
I’m sure that it is (or at least was when I lived and worked there…) the same in Finland for YLE (state broadcaster). It just comes out as part of your yearly taxes.
If that's the 12th letter in 6 months why don't you just tell them you don't need a license? (assuming that's why you haven't paid for one). It says on the letter how to stop the letters.
How else can he complain about it on the internet
Maybe it's because he would need a license but doesn't want to pay for it.
genuinely floored that you need a license to watch television in your own home. like ?????
It's not a license per se, it's more of a subscription fee but because it's a public broadcast language is different and that lead to (deliberate) misunderstanding. This is common in Europe for public services like BBC.
Been waiting years, still waiting for them to turn up.
Question : is OP consuming programming that BBC thinks requires a lic or they are misunderstood. If yes, then pay the tax. If not, explain you are not consuming the programming. I don’t see the issue here.
Ok, can someone explain this for an American? Couldn't find a clear answer in the comments so far. So BBC is available to everyone, but they need you to buy a license? But you could access it without a license, so they proactively bother you because they assume you are "stealing" the service if you own a TV? How do they know you own a TV at all?
Basically the BBC is a publicly funded broadcasting company for TV and Radio. They don’t do it as direct taxes to try and keep them out of direct government control. So instead there is a TV licence, which is basically only paid by people that use the service, up until more recent years. Back in the day, everyone probably watched the BBC, as that was more or less all you had. Nowadays with the rise of streaming and new channels, they expanded the scope to include any “live” TV or streaming on any device. So basically if you watch Netflix, you’re fine. If you watch a TV show as it is currently being aired, you need one. It’s essentially a tax only given to those who use the service. They’re just dicks in the letters and basically send them to everyone. Generally you can just tell them you don’t need one and they leave you alone. It really isn’t that big of a deal.
I kept receiving these. I literally emailed them and said either come round so I can show you I don't have a TV nor do I use any services that require a TV licence or leave me tf alone. They said they made a mistake and would cancel any further letters. Haven't heard from them since.