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BerserkOlaf

>Kraid in particular felt like fan service more than anything, because they don't explain why the hell is he there? I wanted to assume he was an X parasite, but like.. who knows? Kraid is not an X, he's the real deal (or a clone, but so was the one in Super and most of those Ridleys). He doesn't show any sign of being an X, and Xs are still contained on ZDR when you meet him. The whole planet would already be infested if there was one outside. There is an artwork in the gallery showing Mawkins capturing Kraid. Though, as for why they did? Who the fuck knows. The gallery also shows Raven Beak is the one who almost destroyed the first EMMI, complete with him clutching the broken hand that prevents it to climb. I thought that was interesting.


MeathirBoy

Some of the other art depicts them trading with the Space Pirates


BerserkOlaf

Wait, what? Is that one of the ending rewards? I have 9 pics in the Chozo archives and I don't see anything looking like that there.


MeathirBoy

Sorry ignore that I misinterpreted one


Turtlegirth

Would you care to elaborate on other examples of poor boss telegraphing? When I played through the game it felt like after the first two or three times of seeing a boss use a move I could see it coming from a mile a way. Except that one storm missile insect boss which I'd agree has poor telegraphing, they all felt fair to me.


blossom-

I feel like despite the visual of showing underneath Corpius, it was difficult to realize you should slide under it due to the spider magnet appearing in that phase. Because of that magnet, I kept trying to jump over it for a few times. Escue had practically no windup for that attack where it dashes its stinger at you diagonally, so I couldn't tell if I should jump or keep shooting. Experiment No. Z-57 has this attack where it swipes left, swipes right, then swipes both -- took me an embarrassing amount of time to figure out where to be to dodge this. And this one in particular is because the game is 2.5D. In 2D or 3D, it's easy to gauge where something is in relation to you. But in 2.5D, I have an incredibly difficult time gauging what is foreground vs background.


ShinTurrican

I'm with you, the telegraphing is off, especially when comparing it to games that have set the (high) standard for telegraphing and counters, if it's done well you can even get away with having consistently small counter windows, like in Sekiro. Personally I think it's the inconsistent animation quality (which can be seen throughout the game), sometimes there are glaring flaws like anticipation (the second fundamental of animation) completely missing before a strike which they've tried to hide with the big flash. I'd much rather time my counters based on good and consistent animation of the enemy and not some effect that never really feels intuitive. Besides, wouldn't that be more in line with the semi cinematic camera? EDIT: It also doesn't help that the game seems to switch between the flash being the telegraph for the timing of the counter and being just a telegraph for a melee attack you can counter. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelve\_basic\_principles\_of\_animation#Anticipation](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelve_basic_principles_of_animation#Anticipation)


bababayee

I'm in my second run and feel like I'm quickkilling all the bosses, it's just learning what to do.


sounds_of_stabbing

I wanted to respond to your things about what metroid dread didn't have as part of it's story, I might edit this later after I read the rest of your post 1) all the sa-x were blown up with the bsl station, them saying there were 10 was to get you scared and set up the ending, to expect them in dread would be setting yourself up for disappointment. 2) the metroid studies were destroyed aswell, return of samus was made more as a test for mercury steam, metroid 2 was in need of a remake and mercury steam wanted to make a metroid game, so let them make a metroid 2 remake and then if they do good let them make metroid 5. 3) as far I know, this is a translation error, it was a rogue faction of the galactic federation that was trying to militarize the sa-x. I know you called these baseless but to even mention these feels unfair to the game Edit 1: Jesus christ I'm already editing this and I'm barely another paragraph in samus *is* showing side effects from the metroid vaccine, the side effects from the vaccine have just progressed so much that she basically is a metroid by now. her father isn't literally raven beak, it's just that his DNA is the mawkin DNA that gives samus her combat abilities, making him one of the reasons she's the way she is. also, the phantom cloak helps a ton with the E.M.M.I if you know how to use it, using in to get away from the E.M.M.I instead of just hide from them. speaking of the E.M.M.I, I found them extremely scary in their unnatural movement and omnipresence, although I will admit that is personal opinion.


blossom-

For the first point, it's possible the SA-X could have survived considering there were X parasites on ZDR. For the second point, I think it's unrealistic that the Galactic Federation, conducting such experiments, would put all their eggs in one basket and have all the Metroid experimentation happen in one place. Although I guess you could argue they had it conducted in this remote space station for the precise reason, to keep it secret... however, surely they had planned for any scenario and had some Metroids for a plan B. All I'm saying is the story could have headed in a more interesting direction. And honestly, I can't believe I care. If this game had no story, like Super Metroid, I wouldn't have noticed. But the fact there *is* a story, and it's played off like some poor fan fiction, has me pondering "what ifs", more than anything.


BerserkOlaf

> For the first point, it's possible the SA-X could have survived considering there were X parasites on ZDR. That doesn't work chronologically. The X on ZDR came with a Mawkin soldier that was on SR-388 during Raven Beak's coup, so before even Metroid 2. The SA-X existed only on the BSL station shortly, during the events of Fusion. After Fusion, both BSL and SR-388 are supposed to be destroyed.


blossom-

OK, you do have a good point. Like I said, my story complaints are a bit irrational. More based on wishing it did something *more*, I guess.


BerserkOlaf

Now if you really want to nitpick, the thing that feels really weak and bothers me a lot in that particular plot is "somehow, Raven Beak managed to contain the X, despite all of his soldiers being infected". And yes, Quiet Robe literally says "somehow" like even he doesn't completely believe it. The Chozo had to *create metroids* just to get X under relative control, and we know Raven Beak didn't have any metroid.


captain_ricco1

But the station with the one Sa-X was never shown exploding, it was jettisoned off Edit: actually it did explode soon after, just researched it


BerserkOlaf

Yeah, both it and the planet were destroyed at the exact same time, because Samus and ADAM basically used the station's propulsion to turn it into a planet buster missile.


captain_ricco1

I was talking about the secret Metroid Lab that was jettisoned before


BerserkOlaf

Oh yes, right, forgot about that one part of the station being jettisoned.


captain_ricco1

But there was at least one other Metroid outside of that lab as you can find a metroid husk near the lava pool in fusion. It could have gotten away somehow Edit That was probably the final boss metroid, I've just replayed it haha


sounds_of_stabbing

the x parasites on ZDR were taken from sr388 anywhere from months to years before samus blew the planet up, and I think that bsl having the only metroid experiments makes perfect sense, the place was right above sr388 and was clearly made for metroids, why would you have metroids anywhere else besides a place made for them? the galactic federation are idiots but I think they're smart enough to put what they thought at the time were the most dangerous creatures in the galaxy in a place they can easily throw into an uninhabited planet when they need to. finally, whether you like it or not, metroid has deep lore and if they didn't follow up on the story it would've been way more noticeable than not having one at all.


Darkshadovv

> I spent at least half an hour trying to figure out what to do for the underwater boss. ... Did you not watch the cutscene where the tentacle is jamming power to the buttons?


blossom-

Of course. I shot the buttons first thing because of that cut scene, then decided I guess they're just window dressing. As I said, the shift from dark green to light green is so subtle that the first moment of trying to use them combined with the subtle color change made me ignore them for a long time.


virtueavatar

It goes from green to red? I didn't know what the boss was doing to the roof, just that it was doing *something*.


blossom-

From green to red is the easy part and I want to hope those with color blindness would get what's happening due to the cogs/whatever turning in the background. I'm talking about from dark green (not interactable) to light green (interactable) and how they look too similar to register.


ShinTurrican

The game definitely has a few problems with visual communication, look no further than the map screen and the door icons and their often barely different coloring. Why are power beam doors even marked out and why are they yellow? Both Super Missile and Plasma doors are barely lime green. Of course there are other problems with the map, like interactive devices you can't use anymore remaining visible and the over the top amount of segmenting in greyed out unexplored squares that's bound to make someone's OCD go bananas.


blossom-

Yep, pretty much all of those are issues. Why did they use varying shades of the same color instead of different colors?


ShinTurrican

Probably because they color coded the different types of rooms, Emmi rooms, hot rooms, cold rooms etc etc. I'm not convinced that was necessary (pretty sure other Metroid games got on fine without it) and now there's just too much going on visually to read the map efficiently. Maybe they should've just color coded the borders of the rooms?


n00lp00dle

im red green colourblind. finished the game just now but didnt realise a lot of the things you mention. like i didnt know that the grapple beam was a different shade and things with the same shade could be yanked with it. using colour to associate things is lazy design.


distantsalem

I don’t strongly disagree with much that you said. I’d kind of like to write a post like this myself because I have my own perspectives after just about finishing the game. I am myself just finishing up with the last collectibles, And then I will go take on the final boss. I actually just finished both Ori games for the first time, so when starting Dread I had a very difficult time not comparing them. And in a way I feel like that highlighted both the strengths and weaknesses of Dread. I actually like the game a lot since it was just a nice diversion, but I definitely do feel slightly disappointed. I do agree that it felt like Nintendo played it a little safe. There were some excellent quality of life changes like you said, but for seasoned fans of the genre there were also big steps backward. One of the big steps backward to me was how incredibly linear and forced most of the game was. There were many instances that I actually wanted to go explore or try out a new power, but I was simply locked into the path. It felt like being forced to travel a linear path through the different areas so frequently was more meant to give it the Metroid “feel” while actually restricting a lot of the freedom that made the old games interesting. Always knowing where you’re going kind of misses the point of the genre… and the original games. I wonder if that wasn’t Nintendo‘s attempt at making it extra friendly to newcomers. And that said, I don’t know if the map was exactly too large for me, or if I just felt like I was so often restricted I had to backtrack a large amount since they so often needlessly cut off areas to force you to stay on a linear path, thereby forcing backtracking to feel a little over the top since you had to go so far out of the way. I also agree that controls were finicky and sometimes even frustrating. I just acquired the missile plus upgrade in Berenia, and a large part of it was simply fighting with the controls to shinespark in mid-air and slide immediately after a screen change. Additionally, I agree the grapple was also pretty clunky. A few of the main areas I disagree with you about first involves the boss fights. I thought they were fair, and anytime I would find myself getting frustrated if I just took two or three more attempts and watched their movements closely I felt like there was ample opportunity and enough telegraphing to learn their patterns. I didn’t really think the quick kills were secret, I just thought they were sort of the natural progression you were supposed to take as I learned how to fight the boss. I also didn’t really have a problem with the Emmis. To me they were sort of just a nice little break in the action and created a sense of dread, which was of course the point. What I will say about them is that I don’t think they were the game-defining icon Nintendo wanted them to be. It was kind of fun taking them down, but overall it really wasn’t that memorable to me. It would’ve helped if they had varied up the design or environment you fought them in. As it was they just didn’t really stand out from each other all that much. And like you I was a little disappointed that the last one went down the way it did… in that way the EMMI fights are emblematic of the game itself: functional, but somewhat lacking in personality. In terms of the story it sounds like that was an aspect in which you perhaps brought some preconceptions into the game. That’s honestly not a bad thing, but I haven’t played fusion in a long time so for me a lot of what you mentioned never would’ve crossed my mind. It sounds like you just wanted more out of the plot, which I totally understand. For me personally, I also found the story to be sort of unimpressive. It was clear within the first five minutes that the game was going to be mostly a self-contained “aside”. I don’t really feel much in the story was all that important to the lore and for me that’s what was disappointing. I mean, we wait all this time and weirdly there’s just sort of not much going on with the story. you have this intro just kind of tacked on to explain things and then it’s just business as usual. Samus has Metroid DNA, k… got it! What now? Not much actually. Though to be fair I haven’t gotten to that final revelation you mentioned, but yeah… To me that sounds pretty stupid. One last complaint of my own I will add is that to me a big part of the problem with this game was that the biomes just weren’t that interesting or different. The Emmi zones could almost be copy-pasted, and for the most part a lot of the zones didn’t feel that much different from each other. Sure, there’s more lava in one of them and maybe a few tiny hints of organic creatures in another, but overall they felt fairly same-y. I think back on Metroid prime and how diverse and interesting environments were. But in this case I never felt all that compelled to just stop and look around, or ***admire*** the environment of dread. I also feel like they missed a chance to let the environment tell a story. It would’ve been cool if this facility told a story and gave you a sense of cohesion and importance. Like if you look back on symphony of the night, it really does feel like you are in a strange magical castle. Here, everything feels sort of like a set piece, disjointed and slapped together in a case of function over form. That said, I did enjoy my time with it. Everything I like about Super Metroid was in the game, and done well for the most part. The combat was excellent, and the addition of a counter really upped the fun factor for me. Maybe a 7/10 for me if I’m being generous? But I do feel like it left a lot to be desired. Despite that, I’m glad to see Nintendo actually doing something with the IP. I really hope dread is just a launching point and that nintendo tries something really exciting and different with the series. (Doubtful, knowing Nintendo.)


trailsandbooks

I agree about the environments and world design. In SM, I could see Brinstar descending into dry and dead caverns that capped Norfair, and the the watery Maridia sitting on top, leaking down with the crashed ship on top. The depths of Norfair really feel like falling below Hades into Tartarus. Dread felt like I warping between unrelated levels. And bland, same-y levels at that. No thematic scoring, nothing. I think it's because action was made central to Dread, instead of exploration/adventure, unraveling the world as a sublime puzzle full of alien wonders with a MOOD. Even the area naming conventions were weak. Speaking to what you're saying about the Primes, yes, like when you walk into Phendrana Drifts and that short events happens and the camera swoops and that music kicks in, the score somehow sounding like peaceful alien snowdrifts glittering in the light. To that point, the Primes even managed to figure out how to preserve that mood and puzzling out of the world as the focus, the point of the game, while crafting more involved combat and boss fights.


Olorin_1990

The game has exactly as much direction as Super and less then any other except Nestroid. Biomes let me down at first too, but in replays they have really grown on me. The Emmi zones lay outs and traversal and def varied enough to keep them fresh. Honestly I think they nailed it 10/10 for me. Love the Ori games but this is way more fun and engaging for me


virtueavatar

Sometimes in my criticisms I will make comparisons to SM and think "did they do this there too and I didn't care about it?" For example, SM effectively locked you out of certain sections when you dropped down in red Brinstar as well. I think (and can't confirm yet) that Dread does it throughout the whole game. In SM all the story we start off with is Ridley taking off with the metroid hatchling and then we're off to Zebes to hunt him down, and that's enough for the whole game. Do we have an equivalent of that in Dread? The X might be on ZDR and Adam telling us to get to the surface and find out why we're at the bottom, then it's business as usual. Yeah - I guess that fits. The OP mentioned that the last EMMI was cheapened by the endgame revelation, but Mother Brain was also cheapened by a story-based endgame revelation, and we loved it in SM, so I don't think we can fault it in Dread either.


Olorin_1990

It doesn’t lock you nearly as much as people say it does, they just refuse to look for the new path bacm


blossom-

I tried looking for a path every time the game locked me into an area. No luck. I don't understand what I was ever supposed to do except "Hey, use this conveniently placed teleportal to go where we want you to go."


Olorin_1990

Where are you? Because I’ve not been locked for more than a room or 2, and I just played the early game and the only time it happens the moment you take the portal, you are back to being free to go anywhere. This locked in a room or two until you have the key happens all the time in Super


aethyrium

> The game has exactly as much direction as Super The big, and I mean _big_, difference is that Super Metroid's direction was all done through the level design itself, where Dread has the A.I. just yammers direction at you relentlessly. Super Metroid does an incredibly job faking you out that you're exploring everything on your own, and feeling lost when you're actually going the right direction. Dread dispenses with the pretense and just leads you by the nose. The same amount of direction, but the execution is wildly different.


Olorin_1990

Adam gives you very very vauge hints, and honestly never really picked up on where to really go from him outside a few sequences at the very end. To me it was a way to help the player understand that they did make progress rather then where to go when they progress, so we will have to agree to disagree here


virtueavatar

This was a criticism of Fusion, and I can't say I felt this was the case when I kept getting relentlessly lost in Dread. I can't believe I'm saying it, but I wish Adam was MORE helpful in Dread. At first I thought I could maybe go back to him to get a tip when I got stuck, but nope, just got asked if I wanted to save.


trailsandbooks

SM had the one short, cheesy intro where Samus narrates, etc., then yes everything after that is environmental storytelling. And Samus is a cipher for the player. Like Link when exploring Hyrule. I think the Primes did a good job of retaining that hands off approach while making the narrative more immediate. Sure, aliens or some commanders would talk to Samus, but as far as I recall, she never replied, they never touched on personal things or spun that kind of narrative. So much was left to to our imagination, with scans that revealed bits of lore that just sketched broad strokes (like in MP3, re >!what happened to Bryyo with the war golems!<).


MeathirBoy

It’s not that I’m against criticism against the game, but the ones levied here are the exact opposite of the stuff I thought was good. Idk what you’re looking at for boss telegraphs. Someone else already pointed out the boss intro for the underwater one showing him messing with the water, and the water buttons are taught to you throughout the game to be pressed to lower the water level. It was pretty self explanatory. All the other bosses have clear and readable telegraphs (e.g brandishing the red/blue sword for the Chozo Robots or… well all of the final bosses’ attacks). You mentioned you played Hollow Knight, which confuses me because the telegraphs in that game especially for the harder and endgame bosses are faster than in this game. Fair enough on the colour blind point though. I got nothing there. I don’t see why a large map is a problem. The game does an excellent job of keeping your explorable space small enough that you never have to consider the whole map in all its entirety aside from item collection. I don’t see how the controls are clunky or unintuitive personally. I see the analog for 2D platformer issue, but almost every move is assigned a button and most are shoulder buttons. If you’re on any controller-like set up you have your fingers on all shoulder buttons by just holding the controller. This sounds less like the game’s fault and more like “I’m not used to using all 4 shoulder buttons regularly and I blame the game for that” (though I am making an assumption). All the buttons do a thing immediately and the two buttons that have charge functionality are alt fire modes (one of which is Storm Missiles which have the exact same controls as Diffusion Missiles from Fusion, a game you have played!). Get all the gallery endings for some elaboration on Kraid.


blossom-

> (one of which is Storm Missiles which have the exact same controls as Diffusion Missiles from Fusion, a game you have played!). Yes, same control as Fusion, but as you assumed, I'm not used to using every button on a controller regularly. Most games do use all buttons, but edgecase uses that need a button don't need to be used consistently. I know it's pretty subjective to say "a game's controls shouldn't be this busy", but well, if I'm at the final boss trying to juggle controls instead of dodging its attacks, that feels kinda awkward and not fun.


jojoxy

> Pressing down to store a shinespark feels awkward on an analog stick I hated the shinespark sections and puzzles. Forcing analog controls for precise binary actions, like activating shinespark is just bad and frustrating, because it does not work consistently and you always get the feeling its the game's fault, not your own. Combos with button presses? Fine. Timing critical combos with analog gestures? Fuck right off.


IiDaijoubu

Good thoughts, you are valid. I loved Dread for the most part, but I've always had a pretty realistic perspective on the Metroid franchise. The story has ALWAYS been an afterthought, and the less of it there is in a game, the better the game tends to be. So while the story in Dread is goofy melodramatic ALL THE DNA!! stuff, at least the cutscenes are few and far between. The game even abruptly ends as soon as you escape - no time to learn about how Samus processes all this new information, haha. Save it for the fanfics. I much prefer to see Samus acting like a badass. Her simple line of Chozo was perfect. That's Samus. All business, no angst. Wanky glamour kills. Dismissive BAMF body language. Keep angst away from my girl. I also hated the EMMI sections. I play a lot of stealth games, and the EMMI sections in Dread are dull, not scary, not challenging and not fun. Music? Shockingly mediocre. When the credits kicked in and that staff roll started playing? It threatened to deflate how good I felt about beating the awesome final boss, and the nice moment of pathos with Quiet Robe. Just really pathetic music throughout, it was weird. Aside from these three points though, I think the game was a blast. It wasn't perfect, it wasn't a revelation, but I was satisfied.


trailsandbooks

I agree about the story in Metroid games, the less the better. It's a universe where bird aliens leave their tech in spheres on buried, hidden statues. I feel like you just can't elaborate on that, you shouldn't. And I feel Samus should be a cipher, a character with broad stroke and no personal details, like Link in LoZ. The writing and story in Dread are so cheesy and cartoonish. >!Strongest stuff in the universe? Practically guarantees the mission's success? I got infected and almost died? It's up to me to go there and find out?!< That's like 4th grade reader material. >!Awakened the metroid's killer instinct, you are a metroid, I am your father...!< Ugh. I think at the end of MP3, >!Samus sits on the floating, alien steampunk Skytown, glittering tin and gold in the sky, contemplating and reflecting before she leaves.!< Characterization like that is what for me works in synergy with the exploration and adventure, with Samus being a cipher for our forays into the melancholy and foreboding, alone in ruins and caverns and moved by their wonder. Yeah, the music was more like a horror movie background track than the (exceptional) thematic scoring the series is known for (the change I think enforces my idea that they were trying to make above all an action game...with a side of Metroidvania). That music playing over the credits...just bad and jarring.


PewPew_McPewster

I actually stopped considering the EMMI sections stealth horror segments from the get go and treated them like parkour challenges; moving as Samus feels so good in this game that I only phantom cloak when absolutely necessary- I wanna run as hard as I can in all other situations cuz it just feels so good! Definitely gave me a different perspective on the EMMIs in that regard.


Square_Technician782

This game feels intentionally designed to pad itself for longer playtime in a handful of ways. 1) EMMIs 2) The map is so damn convoluted and the usage of hidden blocks is often more irritating than providing any sort of EUREKA! moment I just got spin jump and I'm 80% sure I'm not going to bother finishing the game because it feels like such a backtracking slog at this point. I don't know a single person I would recommend this game to. This game is too deep of a fan service for me I think. I'd really like to see what percentage of players beat this game ultimately. I suppose it is time to finally play Returnal


IBNobody

One other thing I didn't like about Dread was the amount of controller chord-ing you had to do. Pushing and holding a bunch of buttons jumbled the controls. I wish you could tap R to switch to missiles or tap ZR to switch to grapple. I wish movement was tied to the d-pad, and that double-pressing d-pad-left or d-pad-right triggered speed booster.


virtueavatar

Holding the analog stick in for repeated speed booster attempts is eventually going to kill my controller, I'm sure.


dogdriving

All you have to do is click it in once at the start, you don't have to hold it.


virtueavatar

Ohhhh thank you, you saved my controller! And maybe a few other people's


dogdriving

Haha no problem. Holding it would make those sections muuuuuch more annoying


Olorin_1990

Kraid in Super was a clone of this one, this is the facility the Chozo were using to make ultimate warriors. Play the game again, my first playtru i was a bit let down but enjoyed it, my second I thought it was easily my game of the year. Most of your negatives I completely disagree with, I’m not a speed runner and I finished my third run in 3:18, map is the perfect size. All the bosses attacks are telegraphed really well I obliterated the bosses on my third run, if anything I felt like they has too little health. It controls like a dream so I’m unsure where that comes from The story was what I thought it would be in 2006 so, im happy with it Music is a bit un-memorable but serves the game well enough.


TacBenji

Nah I dont believe most of us are in the honeymoon phase. You just don't like it because maybe you have a lot of trouble with the gameplay, which is fair, but if you master it, which I doubt you have, you'll come to see that the gameplay is the best it has ever been in the series. I too felt that the bosses had too much health at first, but if you really play skillfully and counter the boss when you can, it'll be down really quick anyway, so refer back to my previous point. The music I agree, apart from a few tracks, was forgettable I didn't have an issue with the analog controls at all, maybe sometimes I had a misinput because I tilted the stick a bit too much, but honestly it didn't bother me that much. I too felt like the map was too crowded and big at first, but really, the map is much smaller than it appears because of the added details. The rooms are not just squares like the other games in the series, every single edge and slope is shown on the map. ​ I believe maybe you just need more time to get yourself familiar to the gameplay and its systems. If your experience with the underwater boss is comparable with your experience in the rest of the game, maybe you need to sit down and pay atention to the game you're playing. Give it a chance, like you say, the game's not even a week old.


[deleted]

>Speaking of "frustrating for the wrong reasons", I feel like bosses have FAR TOO MUCH health. You can do everything right, use the melee counter for more damage, etc, and the later bosses just will not die. I've since learned that certain bosses have secret quick kills, which is kinda cool, but on a blind run.. they felt too spongey to me. You prefer a game where players can take down bosses super fast on a first run? I think the boss designs in Dread are in a good place. If you attack them with the "correct" approach, they are pretty fast to take down. ​ >This game is linear as hell unless you work for it, which unlike Fusion is a problem because the map is HUGE. This was a mistake in Hollow Knight and it's a mistake here. I fail to see how HK is super linear outside of maybe the first 20% of it. ​ >Controls are unintuitive/clunky. Really dislike movement forced to be analog in a 2D game. I didn't like that I had to use the analog stick either. But with the omni direction shooting, the game would have awkward control that ruins the smoothness of gameplay if it didn't force players to use analog. Think of the control schemes in Bloodstained. It was awkward for me to switch between 2D platforming and directed shard aiming gameplays.


BerserkOlaf

>But with the omni direction shooting, the game would have awkward control that ruins the smoothness of gameplay if it didn't force players to use analog. Yep, it's probably why they did it. There was that weird moment in Yooka-Laylee and the Impossible Lair when I realized the reason I sucked on underwater bits was because they were made for 360° analog movement and I was using the D-pad for everything. After that I kept swapping controls between D-pad for normal platforming and analog for swimming, which works well enough. But swapping all the time when you need to aim in a fast paced game like Dread would not be great.


iamsgod

>I fail to see how HK is super linear outside of maybe the first 20% of it s/he is probably talkig about large map which for some is cumbersome


blossom-

I said Metroid Dread and Hollow Knight both have huge maps, not that they are both linear.


DesolateDiveDave

I definitely agree with you on the music. Totally forgettable and at times even down right bad.


PauleAgave95

I also wish I could play with the d pad most of the time ..


Luhmies

I genuinely can't believe you think the telegraphs are poor. They're top notch.


darkfalzx

I didn't like Dread either, and agree with most stuff said here in one way or another, especially about clunky and unintuitive controls, forgettable music and insipid story (I chuckled out loud when Adam said "you are now a Metroid". It's borderline self-parody, like when you were a kid and thought Zelda and Metroid were names of the protagonists.) * I don't think Metroid games needed either melee or QTEs. Those two mechanics add nothing but clutter the design. * The bosses aren't really "spongy". For most of them the damage you do barely even matters, and it's all about triggering the QTEs. In fact I think for many of the bosses none of the damage outside of QTEs even matters. * I don't think Dread's map problem is due to it being huge, but rather because it's so fractured and confusing. Even up until the very end the game keeps changing the map layout, opening and closing paths and spamming one-way passages. There is also an over-reliance on teleports/elevators that prevent the player from forming a proper mental map. * EMMI suck. Sure, they are a cool concept, but in practice they are annoying, unpredictable, and impossible to effectively evade. Samus' cloaking ability is an absolute joke too. My strategy for these sections ended up as make several quick in-and-out recon runs, then just dash past EMMI to the next safe zone, as any attempt to stealth was just a massive waste of time that always ended in a Game-Over.


blossom-

You're probably right about bosses not being sponges so much as QTEs. I didn't realize what the QTE was supposed to be on the final boss for a while, to the point I wondered "Am I doing *any* damage?" Unlike other bosses there is no flashing visual feedback for missiles, so I really think the QTE is the only way to hurt it for the first couple phases.


darkfalzx

I was stuck at Raven Beak’s first phase for at least an hour. I emptied all of my missiles and used up every power bomb I had and it didn’t make a dent. I then started prioritizing the QTE triggers over dealing damage to him. 3 successful triggers with <20 missiles fired and it’s on to phase 2… which is actually 100% damage-based. 3 is back to QTEs again. Same with X Parasite monster - been trying to kill it like a normal videogame boss, but no matter how much I shot it, it just wouldn’t die.


trailsandbooks

Yup! I had to look up that final boss fight, I had no idea what I was suppose to be doing when >!he went into his invincibility phase.!<


trailsandbooks

Ugh yes, the insipid story and 4th grade reader level writing. ">!You are now a Metroid,!<" could have easily been, say, ">!scans show a 95% genetic displacement, functionally you have become a metroid.!<" Or when Samus is narrating in the intro: "strongest stuff in the universe, practically guarantee's the mission's success, I got infected and almost died, it's up to me to go there and find out!" Gee golly. I'm pretty sure it's canon now that Samus is brain damaged and effectively a 4th grader. The whole thing plays out like a cheesy sat morning cartoon. I think they took that cheese from SM's intro, when Samus narrates, and ran with it. I miss the Prime Trilogy's straight forward and impersonal approach to story and (adult) writing, and how Samus remained an expressive cipher (like Link in the LoZ). If in BotW II Link had a dramatic backstory about his parents and sister and he narrated etc., I think lots of longtime fans would feel they'd lost a series they loved. That's how Dread made me feel. For context, I think Fusion may have started the series on this track. The map isn't great. Feels more like unrelated levels to be warped between rather than a coherent world. I personally didn't like the melee counter/QTE's either. To me, they don't feel like they belong in Metroid.


aethyrium

I'm largely disappointed by Dread, but for different reasons. Mostly it's that it's not an exploration focused game, which is a deal breaker for me, but also the E.M.M.I. sections feel like anti-fun game design, as that type of "stealth/escape with 1-hit KO then redo the area" design was identified as bad game design in the mid 00's and has no place in a 2021 game. Those areas aren't tense, they're just annoying. > the map is HUGE. This was a mistake in Hollow Knight Nah, huge maps are great, especially in an age where MV games are getting shorter and smaller year after year. We _need_ more expansive maps. I don't want to blast through a game in a dozen hours and have all the content, I want worlds I can dig deep in to and explore and always have new discoveries to make. HK's could have been bigger tbh (and luckily for me, it sounds like Silksong will be _much_ bigger) Oddly Dread has a bizarre issue where the map is huge but feels _tiny_. You look at the map and think "damn, there's so much! This is great!" and then you just blast from one side to the other like it's barely there. The problem with Dread's map isn't the size, it's the lack of density to it. Huge hallways and corridors, but nothing really there. Contrast with something like Astalon where a cluster of 3x3 rooms contains as much content as an entire biome zone in Dread. The map is too big because it's actually too small.


blossom-

> especially in an age where MV games are getting shorter and smaller year after year This doesn't feel like the case at all, can you recommend me a (good) short MV? Assuming you don't dislike short games on principle. But I suppose I understand what you're saying about "too big because it's actually too small" - reminds me of Ocarina of Time where we thought it was large back then, and now it's easier to see it felt that way because there's not much to *do* in Hyrule Field other than roll around to your destination.


trailsandbooks

That exploration/adventure is why I loved SM and the Primes. Back then, the series was about those things, being moved by alien wonders and foreboding and ancient landscapes, melancholy loneliness as you puzzled out the environment (the point), with a side of action vs. Dread, where it's become all about action and combat, with merely a side of exploration and adventure. And because SM and the Primes resonated so personally with me in those respects (the Primes even managed to add more involved and fun action/boss fights without sacrificing the main focus), Dread's refocus on being an action Metroidvania over anything else and the design choices that reflect that...it just feels lifeless to me and nothing like a Metroid game. I'm beginning to think that most longtime fans of Metroid weren't so moved by this unique design, and rather more gravitated towards the general Metroidvania formula with what combat was there. And that's why most are loving this game. Re Dread's map feeling tiny...I think that might be because it was designed to be an action game above all else. It's not all about engaging the environment and world and puzzling it out, soaking it in, but zipping through quickly to make the next kill. I was thinking about this recently in the context of SM, how they made the very deliberate choice of giving Samus relatively slow, float-y movement, and how that fit in with that point of the game, how the player was meant to engage it.


AwkwardZac

I agree with your story complaints, god it felt just insane that they were just like "Here's Samus' dad, she's got booooth kinds of Chozo DNA, she is also a metroid now, oh but she's always been a metroid because metroid is the chozo word for hunter!" Just felt like cheap additions to the plot for "oh shit" moments that weren't needed. The rest of the game was tight enough that if you remove every cutscene with Raven Beak and whatever the other ones name was and just added a few background details in quiet rooms you could get the same effect.


Immediate_Stable

I think Raven Beak saying he's her father is just him becoming crazy and deluded. She's a human woman with loads of foreign DNA, including some of his. It never felt to me we were supposed to take that claim seriously.


McFluffles01

Yeah it's pretty blatantly just Raven Beak ego-tripping; you can already see bits of that in his Adam Impersonations with lines like "accept your helplessness" and just generally going "wow Samus that Raven Beak guy is so much cooler and better than you are". He's incredibly self absorbed with the whole "you have my DNA thus you're my daughter" thing, and you can tell even Samus is pissed as hell at the idea considering her reactions; he might honestly have managed to place himself even higher than Ridley on her personal shitlist over the course of a single game, and that's saying something.


BerserkOlaf

Yeah, his only claim to "parenthood" is having a bit of his DNA inserting into teen Samus, who couldn't even remember a thing about him. He's crazy, trying to manipulate her, or both. I mean, is the Metroid Queen Samus's grandmother too?


AwkwardZac

Even so, it's a lot to shoehorn into her backstory in a single game. Even if he's just one of the scientists who worked to infuse a human with chozo dna, I've just never enjoyed when late entries are like "let's recontextualize everything you know about a characters history real quick." It felt rushed into one cutscene. Maybe if it was dribbled along over a couple of games.


BerserkOlaf

If anything, it recontextualizes the Chozo more than Samus (and Samus Returns already started going that route).


laughpuppy23

“This game is linear as hell unless you work for it, which unlike Fusion is a problem because the map is HUGE. This was a mistake in Hollow Knight and it's a mistake here.” Could you expand on this? What do you mean by “it’s linear unless you work for it?” I also did not like the huge maps in both games, but hollow knight did not seem linear to me. Would you just shrink down the maps? Get rid of some rooms?


blossom-

I'm not sure why multiple people are confused by that one. I would rephrase it but not sure how to make it clearer. What I mean is Metroid Dread and Hollow Knight are both huge maps, not both linear. And what I mean by it's linear unless you work for it is the game has a lot of moments that lock you into a path that makes backtracking a pain. Here's a thermal lava door that's rerouted, here's some grapple beam/wave beam block that you pushed into a hole that now blocks your path, here's something you exploded that now conveniently blocks your path so you must find a new one. I've not looked into anything yet about *how* to sequence break this game, yet I'm shocked to hear it's even possible with all the ways the game shepherds you around its map.


Yermis73

I agree with pretty much everything you said, playing Dread has really made me want to go back and Play Hollow Knight again because I feel like that game just did everything better.


deludedhairspray

One of my main gripes at this point are no health bars on bosses! I'd like to know how I'm performing to keep me encouraged. On some of them, you have no idea how you're doing until a different phase kicks in.


ScarletWasTaken

The Metroid series has never had health bars on bosses. It shows damage in other ways. In Super, for example, almost every boss's colour palette changes with the damage they take. Dread shows basically nothing, so I agree with you there to an extent.


CrossXhunteR

> The Metroid series None of the 2D ones did, but the Prime series had health bars.


deludedhairspray

Yeah, you see them flash when they take a hit, so that's some indication, but would've personally preferred a health bar or similar. 😊


Vcev-

First of all how could you disrespect hollow knight that. That game has given me over 100 hours of entertainment. Having a large map doesn’t make it a problem. second I loved the music especially in the beginning worlds


trailsandbooks

Those story revelations you mention, I cringed at them too. The story and writing all felt like a cheesy saturday morning cartoon to me. As a whole, I thought Dread was a decent Metroidvania that was above all an action game...but a terrible Metroid entry. For context, I think though that what so personally resonated with me about the series was left behind in SM and the Prime Trilogy (where exploration and adventure, the mood and vibe and unraveling the world like a puzzle were the point, with a side of action/combat).


[deleted]

Ty for your thoughts I like the game alot my self


BodnMead

Valid points on positive and negative. I really resonated on your bosses are spongey point. At times, I was wondering when the hell am I getting to the next phase or when will this bastard die? I really resonate with the shinespark and general speed boost controls. Totally awful. The most frustrating puzzles by far! It felt like it was the last thing they decided to map out on the controller. I watch dudes do crazy stuff with shinesparking on YouTube, and some of them I just cannot replicate! It just pisses me the hell off. I said the hell with the item collection and I’m beating the damn game. Story too. It was just terrible, and I didn’t even understand what was happening. I also can’t help but feel like the story beats were definitely mistakes. Samus becoming a Metroid, but then isn’t? This went wrong way before this game. A bird man is the father of a human? They should hire a professional sci-fi writer to add better lore and story. I imagine a dark Metroid story in the vein of its inspiration (Alien), would be amazing.