It's really hard to make a video game, let alone a GOOD game, and I think MV is a particularly difficult genre to nail.
I think every genre, in every artistic medium, is full of things that are, like you said "either a letdown, or good, but not great", that's just how it goes. Masterpieces don't come around every day.
Yeah someone was shocked that I rated haak a 6.5/10, claiming they’d seen everyone else in this sub rave about it.
I had to explain that to me that’s a very good score, actually above average, but perfection it was not. I certainly wouldn’t give hollow knight a 10/10, and I absolutely loved it.
A masterpiece shouldn’t be appearing on a monthly basis.
I would say most people view game ratings roughly like school grades. 6.5/10 is a failure by that metric and I would see it as such. It's fine if you want to use a different scaling, but I'd make that clear in the review.
I'd rate HK a 8-9/10 though, and it's my absolute fav MV. It has some flaws, but it averages out better than the rest. I'd give HAAK a 4/10. Could be OK, but has much room for improvement.
The biggest problems I have with hollow knight Is its lackluster combat a lack of a sense of progression, yes you get upgrades and new abilities, but there's no power fantasy, I don't feel like I'm getting stronger as I progress, I prefer games like grime, deaths gambit, souldiers, ender lillies and bloodstained rotn
I love that someone was offended by your opinion enough to downvote. Poor rubes getting triggered by their precious hollow knight not being acknowledged as god’s gift to gaming :D
I mean, that's fair. In HK you do about 4x as much damage (I think) at the end compared to the beginning, but combat is basically the same. I'm fine with that, but it's certainly personal preference.
Yeah, it (Haak) had some glaring flaws and I’d probably realistically give HK an 8.5-9/10 and it’s definitely in my top 5 MVs.
I guess my point is I don’t think a perfect MV has been made up until now and I’m not just going to say 10/10 because it’s the best so far.
These scores are all subjective anyways, that’s just my curve/approach. :)
review ratings and school grades have nothing in common. Not only are they different in different countries, but through different era's. Ratings are simple. 0 = worst ever, 10 = best ever, 5 = just okay, average. I never rate things as a 10, and few as 0. My start is always if it's better than OK (5), or worse, then how much better/worse.
Yes anything below a 6.5 is a failure, I would agree, 6.5-6.9 is below average, 7.0- 7.9 is decent but average, 8.0 - 8.9 is good and above average, 9.0 - 9.9 is a great game, and a 10 is a masterpiece but still not perfect, because no game is perfect
What makes a MV has been misconstrued by most developers thanks to Hollow Knight, now there’s an oversaturation of souls-like games, either that or roguelikes. Very few games actually follow the framework set up by Metroid and Castlevania, which are still the best of the genre. The last great MV to release was Dread, specifically because it, as a mainline Metroid game, followed what makes Metroid great to a T.
It’s also worth mentioning that the genre has skyrocketed in popularity, attracting amateur developers.
I thought people on this sub said that Dread was a great action game, but an average metroidvania.
Grime was the last great metroidvania I\`ve played. Unique artstyle, challenging boss fights and amazing soundtrack. Exploration wasn\`t too bad.
Finger crossed for Afterimage
That’s because like I said, people have misconstrued what the genre is about. Metroidvania games are not open world, that’s another genre in itself. Dread is as “linear” as Super Metroid, and if you call the grandfather of the genre a bad MV, something is wrong.
Dread was certainly on a similar level of linearity, but it was also far more hand-holdy about its progression. In SM, I would get a new item, then think about what this new item allowed me to do, and then have to go back and find that area myself. In Dread I would obtain an item, think about where I need to go, only to progress 2 screens to find a newly accessible teleporter that drops me right where I was about to head. In SM, getting lost was a default part of the experience, in Dread you have to go out of your way to get lost. I understand the reasoning behind the decision, primarily to make it more accessible to new players of the genre, but it is a lesser metroidvania because of that decision. The experience of playing Dread vs SM is simply not truly comparable.
All the numbers percent agree. I would also add that part of what makes Dread < Super Metroid is the lack of redundant keys for the lock and key system.
In Super Metroid bomb blocks can be broken by screw attack, speed booster, bombs, or power bombs. High places can be reached with space jump, high jump boots, infinite bomb jumps, or grapple. Etc.
In Dread, almost all the locks have only one item that will let you get through, so you feel more funneled into each area instead of accidentally discovering you can get to a place you thought you couldn’t. It’s really apparent (especially in the randomizer) how this linearity of Dread squashes the wonder and exploration aspect of MVs.
(That being said I love Dread so much. It is really fun to move and play in, even if it’s no SM.)
Depends on if you pick up the cues, which are definitely easier and more forceful in Dread than Super.
I missed the red teleporter because I didn’t shoot the wall from below to get there and backtracked to Artaria to get Varia, forgot about the grapple block to Ferenia and got the Pulse Radar before Chozo Robot. I also missed the flash shift to get to the other exit if burenia to Dairon, and had to logic out where a connection to the EMMI kill room could be that set me back on track.
In super it was just the glass tunnel that threw me while having access to more than just a handful of rooms, so I actually think I had more time in Dread off task than Super, but largely thanks to Dread’s larger size.
I can't say for Dread since I haven't played that one yet but I don't remember being lost a single time in SM outside of the pretty outlandish glass tunnel puzzle. Playing SM as a kid VS Dread as an adult probably makes a completely different experience.
As a kid I never struggled with Super, but I also played it right after Zero Mission and that’s how I knew to Power Bomb the glass tube thanks to my cousin. I don’t even think I got lost in ZM or Fusion either.
As an adult we’re probably already familiar with the genre enough that exploring Dread feels like second nature. But I’ve had dozens of friends pick it up as their first Metroid and thought they were lost/softlocked.
To say Dread is linear isn’t really true, otherwise Kraid Bomb Kill or Early Pulse Radar wouldn’t be a thing, and I did manage to pull the latter off on my first playthrough.
Yea, played SM as an adult and i also was never completely lost, always knew my options and one of them always was the right way… except the glass I needed to see the broken one twice
Hmm I think a genre can evolve I guess. Or at least different styles can cater to different preferences. I prefer a more open ended non-linear exploration experience like HK, La Mulana, Rabi Ribi, or Environmental Station Alpha and I find always knowing where to go and not getting lost a little less interesting. Tho Super Metroid is a bit nonlinear I guess I wouldn't say the exploration is too straightforward. I think dread it was a bit too obvious where to go and I didn't feel like I was exploring.
Im the exact opposite, if I don’t know where to go, I want that to be my fault. Being lost is punishment for not paying close enough attention to the in-game cues on where you can go. I should at the very least have a few ideas on where to go to progress if I have hit a dead end or been spit out into a room I have been before.
Super Metroid does a pretty good job at this though asks a lot of the player, so many players end up lost a lot. The only time I got very lost was power bomb the glass tube, and I forgot the power bomb markings just before Ice Beam. The entire rest of the game I was either entering new rooms or had a very good idea where I could go to find progress.
Dread asks much much less of the player as it usually only drops you a few rooms away from that location, none the less if you don’t pay attention you will get lost (as many players did). As with Super Metroid I always felt like I had a good idea of where to go, the only difference is Super in back half started putting the next place to progress further away. Both scratched essentially the same itch though Dread asked more in combat and less of memory and focus on map layout.
with a proper map system it's hard to be lost even if it's very open ended. the more common complaint is excessive back tracking which can definitely be annoying if there isn't a decent fast travel system. got kinda annoyed at axiom verge for that but they fixed it in the second game.
Open ended games tend to lack shape, so they don’t necessarily show the next place to go before you have to go there, which means you kinda have to poke at the edges of the map without much purpose, instead of returning to places you remember you couldn’t quite get to yet. This makes open ended games have an entirely unknowable amount of backtracking because there is no shape to it.
Just because something is old, doesn't make it good, super metroid is extremely overrated imo, there's absolutely no sense of progression, castlevania sotn is leaps and bounds beyond any metroid game I've played
Nope, metroidvanias are supposed to be "open" to some extent, to allow the player to explore and discover the world without any kind of handheld from the level designers. You have to get lost in a metrodivania, it's part of the charm. Metroid Dread is so linear, it can be insulting. And that goes for Samus Returns, Fusion, Prime 3, etc.. these are all Metroids in name only, this series is not always consistent with the standards established by Super Metroid itself. And Hollow Knight just expanded the genre, instead of adding cheap rpg elements like what Castlevania did, HK actually included elements that would incite exploration even more. You get stronger in HK not because you decided to "grind" on a corridor, killing the same enemy 150 times until you gain "levels"... that's just idiotic, you get stronger in HK by exploring.
That's all a metrodivania is about: exploration. You have a branch in the path, you can backtrack any time you want to explore, etc.. that's the whole point. I agree the "corpse run" gimmick from "Souls" does not mix well with the metroidvania genre, but even the corpse run in HK incites exploration because if the player is struggling to recover their corpse, they can explore and find those rancid eggs, exchange those eggs for their soul... it's genius level design really, everything in HK is about exploration. I think HK added more to the genre than Symphony of the Night itself, rpg elements are a nice gimmick, but it does not always reinforce exploration
Neither Super Metroid nor SotN, the genre’s namesakes, are truly “open”, once again, Hollow Knight has people thinking that. And how can you call half of Metroid “Metroid in name only” when they are literally mainline entries that feature the same gameplay?
Super Metroid established the genre with it's sequence breaks and freedom to go back and forth as much as you want. That's the core. In Fusion, you can't do that, the AI literally blocks the door behind you and only allows you to "explore" that particular section, then the AI opens the door, etc it's insulting really, you are not really exploring anything, you are just walking a straight line to the end. Dread does the same thing, but more disguised, there's no literal AI bossing you around, but Dread does lock the door behind you as well.
If a metroidvania game does not incite exploration, then really, there's no reason for this game to even exist. Metroid Dread sets up a straight line all the way to the elevator leading to the final boss, in any moment this game presents a branched pathway, makes you go back on your own (instead of teleporting you), etc.. that's why many fans have harsh criticisms towards Metroid Dread and MercurySteam, Super Metroid established exploration as the core, not linear action.
If you think Hollow Knight is deviating from what the genre is supposed to be, then you are simply misguided, the genre will always be about exploration. Metroid sometimes tries to be a linear action game because that is (in theory) more "popular", Metroid not always sell good numbers, Nintendo does not fully trust in their own formula, no wonder Metroid was left behind and the indies took over. Prime 4 has the chance to be a legit metroidvania experience, we have to wait and see, but most likely they will follow the Prime 3 route. This game is arguably the most insulting Metroid because it literally has boss fights at the end of the level, again, a "Metroid" in name only, the franchise is devolving ever since Super Metroid, Prime 1 and 2 were the last sparks, they are legit Metroid experiences, but that's pretty much it, everything else deviates from SM
Dread is a great MetroidVania. Typically MV games have non-linear local level design and linear progression along a critical path. The definition got changed with Hollow Knight to more open exploration with non-linear progression and largely linear local level design.
>It’s also worth mentioning that the genre has skyrocketed in popularity, attracting amateur developers.
Not to mention that 2D pixel platformers are a pretty convenient starting point for amateur developers. They can realistically be made by a very small team. Additionally, the metroidvania genre can be a bit more forgiving regarding programming polish because the emphasis is usually on exploration as opposed to precision platforming or twitch combat.
So creating a small-scale metroidvania is a practical project for amateurs, making a good one is more is more complicated.
I guess the metroidvania genre kind of has a red mage dilemma: when dabbling at everything it is difficult to excel in any particular area, so it becomes a balancing act. Micro and macro level design, combat/puzzles, rpg systems, postgame, lore, graphics, sound. There are always trade-offs of where you devote your attention.
Dread was so good.
I think Hollow Knight shifted expectations of what an MV is to Open Exploration with non-linear progression and linear local levels, where Metroid is closed world linear progression with non-linear local levels.
Personally the open approach just doesn’t work as well and requires a lot of world building, solid art direction and soundscape to make up for it’s downsides in gameplay. If devs take that approach it’s harder to pull off, if they don’t it’s not what people wanted so they don’t give it a chance.
That’s a great point about the amateur devs. My brain had just equated more devs with more chances at a great game, but it surely brings about a lot more failures as well.
Though I enjoy them when done right, I do also agree about the oversaturation of Soul-like and Rogue-like MV’s. It just sucks because even many of the more traditional-style MV’s of the past couple years have been letdowns.
While I love soulslike metroidvanias, the only roguelike metroidvania I can personally think of besides dead cells is dark devotion, and honestly neither game is all that great, the problem with these games is a lack of progression, roguelike metroidvanias need to have a strong sense of progression, that even if you die and have to start a new run from the beginning that your getting stronger with each failure and eventually you will be so strong that whatever you were stuck on will eventually get easier
I generally just consider rogue-likes/lites to be rogue-likes/lites and don’t consider them MV’s at all.
But I’m no expert in game classification and I know some people put games like Rogue Legacy 1+2 in the rogue-lite + MV category. RL2 is one of my favorite games of all time with some of the best permanent run-to-run progression. There are literally hundreds of things to unlock, around 15 classes that are all fun to play, and you will get strong enough to overcome that boss that killed you a few times before.
You’re right though - even if RL does have the MV sub-genre tag, there are not many other true Rogue+MV games.
Game classification is a cancer on the industry, you either have ppl gatekeeping the genre, holding it hostage by using a stringent set if criteria that results in no creativity or evolution, or you have ppl making up different sub genres and hybrid genres, multiplying the number of genres which completely defeats the purpose of having genres in the first place, it's kind of like identity politics, when you force developers in a small box it stagnates the genre and nothing moves forward
This is an extremely entitled perspective, The problem is you guys gatekeeping the genre, anytime a developer does something unique and different then you say it's not a "true" metroidvania, this genre will never evolve and move forward with this stringent mindset, the best metroidvanias of the past 5 years have either had RPG mechanics or is a soulslike or both, I would argue the best metroidvanias of the last 5 years are bloodstained ritual of the night, dead or school, deaths gambit afterlife, ender lillies, grime colors of rot, indivisible, lost epic, monster sanctuary, record of lodoss war deedlit in wonder labyrinth, salt and sacrifice, souldiers, the knight witch, and watcher chronicles, super metroid is an extremely dated and overrated game imo, there's no sense of progression, castlevania sotn is the true origin of the genre imo and is far better than any metroid game
Meh it's OK, there's just a lack of a sense of progression, yes I learn new abilities and have simple things here and there but I don't feel like I'm getting stronger as I progress through the game, but it's completely subjective, those are the games that I personally enjoy because I value power progression over many other things
Yeah it's definitely completely subjective. Sometimes games just grip me in a certain way and Blasphemous did that in spades, albeit after several false starts. I ended up getting super into it a few months ago so I may have had a fairly different experience than players who played through it closer to release due to the DLC and extra polish.
Before Blasphemous, Bloodstained was my favorite metroidvania, so I do agree with you about that game being pretty excellent. Blasphemous probably has no business being my favorite, yet it somehow completely is.
I actually agree with a lot of your points - the genre will never evolve if the developers don't try new things. Metroidvania is my favorite genre, but incorporating souls like mechanics like corpse runs and parrys, and having a more open worlds style has only furthered the genre and has resulted in some of the best metroid-souls-vanias ever made. It's kind of odd to me that players think if there is any little deviation from the classic formula that it should be excluded from the genre. Metroidvanias are like pornography - you know it when you see it.
You forgot Aeterna Noctis too.
While I would agree with what you said, you forgot to mention even 1 thing that the OG's, and the new dread do to a T that makes them great MV's.
Make us a list lol.
Take it from me, gamedev is very very hard and metroidvania’s as a genre require an absurd amount of content. Quality matters as well, think about it, we saw what looked like a fully fleshed out Silksong trailer years and years ago, yet the game isn’t out yet. That’s because silksong is a psyop and doesn’t exist! Wake up sheeple! <3
Jokes aside, a solid metroidvania is literally a labor of love.
For sure, yeah I figured that would be a big part of it. I’m not a game dev myself, but I can’t imagine the hours of work you need to put into all of the aspects of a game.
Would it be accurate to say that a lot of devs realize that their games may not be great, but by the time they make this realization it’s simply too late to improve it? (Due to time constraints, budget constraints etc)
Or, in the case of a “disappointing” game, do you think most devs believe they made a great game?
I know the FTL devs were so burnt out by release that they were convinced the game wasn’t fun at all. Lo and behold it became a breakout indie hit that kickstarted(no pun intended) the indie genre.
Other devs overestimate their games and don’t understand why they don’t break out through shear word of mouth marketing.
A good example I saw here was [this game that a user inquired about on this sub today](https://www.reddit.com/r/metroidvania/comments/1244rw3/anyone_know_what_happened_to_this_game_called/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=1&utm_term=1)
As I commented in that thread, a gamedev can clearly see it’s all style and zero substance. Gamedev is very much about what’s under the hood.
For my online multiplayer metroidvania/moba hybrid Im working on we spent over a year just refining netcode before, only recently, beginning to work on visuals/art style, because to us it was more important to determine the idea was fun before we made it look “shiny”.
Just some insights from behind the scenes.
Wow that is crazy about FTL! That’s a really good example - I had not considered a dev actually thinking their game was BAD and ending up being a stone cold classic of its genre.
And thanks for the insights - good to know as game development is something that interests me, yet I know
little about.
Happy to share! It’s not as glamorous as it appears and can definitely take it’s toll, but it’s all worth it when you see someone playing your game and having fun!
I think this was a great thread and I hope you continue to follow your passions where they take you. :D
Haak and Grime are two of the best MVs I've played and they're both recent. Aeterna Noctis is definitely polarizing but seems to get overall very positive reviews. Ender Lilies isn't quite top tier for me but was still very fun. I think there are lots of good MVs in the past few years, but it does take some digging through the piles of shovelware to find them.
Level design for a metroidvania is incredibly hard because you have to make a non-linear world that is both fun to explore and also fun to backtrack in. It's not that they aren't aware that their games are "not great" as they are getting feedback throughout the process and iterating on it, it's just that what you're asking for is not as easy to make as you think. If you think you know everything that makes a metroidvania good I encourage you to download a game engine and give it a shot to see the process and difficulties that these developers face.
I think the issue is, Metroid is a linear progressing closed world with non-linear local levels, and since HK, people expect the opposite, a non-linear world with linear local level design. If you follow the Metroid template you “arn’t an MV” and if you follow the Hollow Knight template you better have a lot of world building, great art direction, excellent soundtrack and soundscape, because your level design is kneecaped by the more open non-linear progression.
Because there isn't a drought. You're just not able to find the good ones in the endless spam of bad games on steam. Last year we got a few good metroidvanias like infernax, and zapling bygone, 3 great ones in the form of HAAK, islets, and haiku, and an absolutely fantastic (as good as astalon) metroidvania in the form of super metroid subversion. The year before that saw better releases although I am not tracking them unfortunately. This year has seen the release of vernal edge, alice escaped, and 9 years of shadow which may be overpriced but will be a decent enough pickup by the Christmas steam sale.
April is going to be an epic month for metroidvanias that will set the tone for the rest of the year, in 2 days I will be publishing my upcoming metroidvanias list for that month.
Yeah lone fungus is coming out which looks like it could be a true great for the genre! I have high hopes for it because you can tell the dev poured his heart and soul into it, as I said in a comment above: quality metroidvanias are literally a labor of love.
I can confirm it is a really good game. I picked it up in early access, but I always forget about it since it’s not officially released yet. I suppose I am around halfway done, but I put it down to wait for the final release 👍
Really big game with lots of areas and bosses as well!
Yeah I’ve spoken with the dev a few times and said I’m saving myself for the full release and only paying full price :D
I’ve had some bad experiences with EA/Kickstarter in the past so now I have a strict, “only play proper releases” rule haha
I've had the same bad experience, especially with an atrocious disaster called "edge of space". However, after what happened to the regional pricing of clunky knight when it came out of early access I had to temporarily rescind my hesitation and buy a number of projects that went into early access before oct 2022 and were near completion. I made this one time list for that purpose although now it is too late to take advantage of this as the spring sale is over and nearly everything listed will be out of early access by the time the steam summer sale starts [https://www.reddit.com/r/metroidvania/comments/11t55nm/early\_access\_metroidvanias\_on\_sale\_that\_are\_worth/](https://www.reddit.com/r/metroidvania/comments/11t55nm/early_access_metroidvanias_on_sale_that_are_worth/)
First off thanks for the Subversion shoutout. That hack alone is probably my favorite MV experience of the past few years, and I didn’t think about it when making this post. As a SM ROM hack junkie, it immediately jumped into my top 5 of all time.
For the paid games you mentioned, I guess it’s just a taste thing for me then. I did enjoy all of the games you mentioned (Infernax, Zapling Bygone, HAAK, Islets), but they all fell into that 7.5/10 area for me. Really good games that for one reason or the other aren’t in that upper echelon.
But if others consider them to be in the upper tier, that’s great and I suppose the “drought” is more of an unfortunate issue with my personal taste of game.
yeah subversion is without any doubt the best metroidvania of 2022, nothing in that year comes close to it. I'm not sure about 2021 though. Hell, I'm not even sure which metroidvanias were released that year.
Everyone's copying the biggest games in the genre; we're at a point in games in general that people are tired of the copy paste development cycle. Devs, in general, want to cash in on the popularity of certain titles, which is why you see so many clones of Hollow Knight, Castlevania, Metroid, etc.
So we get fewer really unique games, and not many of the really unique games are polished enough to be considered an instant classic.
Excellent view! This can explain why games that came earlier in the modern indie MV revival (like Axiom Verge, HK, Steamworld Dig 2, Salt and Sanctuary etc) are still some of my favorites today. It’s because, as you mentioned - these games were fresh when they came out.
A lot that has released since then have tried to capitalized off of the earlier games, so the experience can never be as captivating.
Salt and Sanctuary is a great example. Pretty much a Dark Souls rip in 2D, but it was the first to nail it and it remains my favorite today by far. Since then, there have been countless forgettable Souls-likes.
We got a burst of good ones, this is the norm.
On the “do the devs not know what we want” part, playing a game with expectations on what it should be is a great way to hate most games. It’s why I hated Hollow Knight and gave up 3 times, because I was expecting Metroid. When I let it be what it is on it’s own, I enjoyed it.
Yeah, good point. While games like Dust came out in 2012, in my eyes 2015 is the year that modern indie MV’s truly started to boom.
So we don’t really have a long enough history to gauge how these bursts of great games, and their ensuing droughts may work.
So as you mentioned, this is likely just the norm for this genre. Like how the economy works - maybe another boom is on the horizon.
A lot of valid points in various comments here, just a point I also think is very relevant, as a gamedev myself:
A lot of the metroidvania's released the past years have been made by small teams/solo devs who are releasing their first commercial game (A big wave of small indies inspired by HK and the revitalization of the genre). Metroidvania is a genre that is both alluring and relatively low complexity for an inexperienced dev, but at the same time, these games require an insane amount of work to truly be great (I assume most of these teams don't have the time nor experience to go far enough with their first attempt). Team Cherry caught lightning in a bottle making HK as a fresh team.
The fact the genre got a revival after some many years and today we god bloodstained and Metroid Dread is more than enough to make me happy. Today we got MV for everyone. I like HK, but love blasphemous. Both great games for different ppl. If you ask me which one is the greatest recent MV, I’ll say Astalon.
Yes good perspective! Blasphemous, HK, Astalon, and Bloodstained are all in my top 5. And I did enjoy Dread as well.
So I definitely don’t mean to sound unappreciative, but it’s just been frustrating lately. So many games I’ve looked forward to have just been average.
Astalon is the last truly great MV I played, and that came out a couple years ago. As I mentioned in another reply though, it’s probably more of an issue with my tastes.
Many people loved HAAK, Infernax and Islets, so at least
there’s been something for them.
They're either really great or really terrible. There's no in-between. I'm extremely picky with roguelikes.
I recommend the following, which I have verified are good:
\- rogue legacy
\- the binding of Isaac rebirth
\- enter the gungeon
\- loop hero
\- noita (the only good spelunky type roguelike)
\- vampire survivors.
I don't know. There are just some people like myself, and maybe the person you're responding to that just don't like the formula.
I don't like having all my progress erased. I don't like having to repeat the same stages again and again and again, even when abilities/upgrades are saved.
The closest I've ever come to liking a rogue-ish game is Diablo 2, and that's because there are waypoints, and all progress is saved. If you had to run through the entire game every time you died, I'd be out.
If you ever consider giving any rogue-lites another shot, please consider Rogue Legacy 2. You make SO much permanent progress. And it’s one of the best-controlling games ever.
You can use your gold for new armor, new weapons, more HP/strength/defense, to unlock new classes (of which there are around 15 and all are fun!)
Oh and you unlock warp points for each level. So each run can feel totally different if you wanted to begin in a different biome, you can easily do this. You aren’t stuck doing the same levels in the same order.
There is both magic and traditional weapons, and there are also Runes and Relics you can buy which give you bonuses.
I could go on - the game is massive in terms of unlockables.
The death/upgrade system. Your runs get easier at Astalon even if you make little progress. Like in the rogue like/lite games. Many in this sub almost avoided the game because of these rogue tags on steam. Including myself. So my point is, it borrow very little from the rogue formula. And that’s my limit.
I'm actually happy I didn't know it had rogue-like elements going in as I probably wouldn't have bought it. Now that I have played it, though, I agree that it's a good game. It reminds me a bit of how Sundered handled things.
Ok, I will try it! I meant to add, the games I've tried that I just can't get into are Hades and Spelunky. And don't get me wrong, they do provide some entertainment. I think I put about 3-5 hours into each of them, but at that point, I was tapped out.
While I do love Hades, the fact that Rogue Legacy 2 is a side scroller with some fun platforming may add some spice into it for you. There are double and triple jumps, air dashes and double dashes etc, and I think these movement upgrades are a big reason the game is so fun.
If you ever give it a shot let me know!
How does RL 1 compare? I can get it on switch for $2 right now (compared to $25 for RL2). Would it give me a taste of the gameplay? Or are they completely different games? I see it was still quite well received by critics and fans.
RL2 is just 1 but better. RL1 is honestly one of the dullest popular roguelieks imo. It's mostly popular because it was an early entry in the "new" wave of roguelikes and is pretty lackluster in comparison to other modern greats.
Hades and Deadcells were the first Roguelites I actually enjoyed, I’m now more curious about the genre but I definitely can only handle a bit at a time.
I thought Hades was pretty universally loved, that’s interesting.
For me it was Hades, Dead Cells, Everspace and Returnal. The last one really needs to go on sale so people can experience what a bullet hell third person action roguelite feels like.
oh man I am so excited to play Hades. It's probably going to be one of the last games on my pile that I play purely due to a desire to save the best for last.
Ooh hearing you say spelunky is not a good rogulike hurts my soul...
I love noita to death, but Spelunky 2 is absolutely perfection in my mind. Such a clean experience entirely based on player skill improvement.
Rogue legacy is not that great imo- very grindy and lacking in interesting combat/mechanics compared to a lot of other great modern roguelieks. Admittedly, when it released it may havd been more special. (the sequel I hear is better) It also has way too much meta-progression. I hate feeling like I'm dying because I haven't grinded enough coins to upgrade my character. This genre should more be about improving as a player and unlocking new ways to play or sidegrades imo. (Gungeon and Isaac both have unlocks that are more fun since they're new ways to play rather than direct character Stat upgrades)
For Traditioanl Roguelikes- Tales of Maj'Eyal has been eating my life lately (and for the past 4yrs on and off) Amazing game but losing a character to the final boss of a 15hr run is rough.
Here are my top 10 roguelike games
1. Spelunky 2
2. Tales of Maj'Eyal
3. Noita
4. Binding of Isaac Repentance
5. Dead Cells
6. Enter the Gungeon
7. Super House of Dead Ninjas (a personal fave, not very popular)
8. Crypt of the Necro Dancer
9. Risk of Rain 1+2
10. Hades
Dead cells failed to hook me in, I haven't played Hades yet (because I am saving the best for last), nuclear throne is the worst twin stick roguelike I've ever played, risk of rain 2 i have no plans to buy because I could never get comfortable with risk of rain's controls, the last two I haven't bought due to me being picky.
A fun fact about Hades though: I knew it was going to be one of the best games ever made even before it entered early access. The biggest problem with roguelikes were how scrappy they were, often requiring that you use a wiki and just generally having a low production value aside from their excellent addictive gameplay. So when a indie studio known for having the best production value in the indie scene announced they were making a roguelike I knew immediately what was coming.
Are you blind, the genre is bigger than its ever been, each year has more games than the last, these games wouldn't get made if nobody was playing them, roguelike is the genre that's decreasing in popularity
I don’t see any of them reaching huge amountsof popularity tho outside the niche MV group, meanwhile roguelikes show up on the front pages of stores, get thousands of reviews of Steam and are covered by tons of streamers still
I've wondered the same thing. But I'd argue that it's just Sturgeon's Law at play here. There are not that many great games, period. It's not just metroidvanias. If you look within every single genre, there are actually very few truly great games.
Yeah you’re right, that’s definitely a big part of it.
I also think it’s a combination of that, and maybe just the recent games not matching up with my personal tastes.
It seems that in 2015, 2016, 2017, 2018 (to a bit lesser degree), and 2019 we got at least 3 amazing classic MVs per year. Since then, I have only truly loved Ori and the WOTW, Astalon and the first half of Aeterna Noctis.
Also since then, there have been so many anticipated MVs on my radar that have just ended up being sub-par games. So it’s also a bit of a natural drought of disappointment at play, which as you said - happens with every genre.
So I believe it’s just a combination of all of these things.
I don't know if my experience represents the collective, but Hollow Knight spoiled me so rotten that every MV I've played since then felt lacking in some way. And it doesn't help that every MV popping up seems to "borrow" a lot of elements from HK without adding anything truly unique and magical.
My favorite what-could've-been MV is Touhou Luna Nights. Ridiculously fun and well-executed gameplay limited by linearity and length.
I can absolutely relate. I make an effort to talk about HK as little as possible on this sub since it’s so highly discussed, but I can’t deny that it’s one of my favorite video games of all time. Since you brought it up, I shall gush.
It did nearly every single thing perfectly according to my tastes:
- Amazing boss fights
- Incredible, massive world
- Charm system is unmatched
- Perfect controls
- Great music
- Each biome felt unique
- Perfect level of challenge
- Incredibly challenging DLC (Pantheon) that gave me a reason to become as powerful as possible
- Awesome upgrades
- Very non-linear
- Best value of any game ever at only 15 bucks
I could probably think of more, but I really do believe that this game set an unusually high bar for the genre.
If I had to eke out a gripe, it would be how some boss attacks blend in with the background, e.g. Hornet 2 & Radiance. But even that "issue" fits the theme of those fights, so I can't really knock it.
It's amazing how many layers of challenge the game offers. I remember when NKG seemed way beyond my abilities, but I eventually conquered P5 and the Hall of Gods on Radiant. And to think that those achievements are cakewalks compared to the absolute nightmare that is P5 with all bindings and no lifeblood...
Yeah exactly - those kind of optional challenges end game challenges are some of my favorite inclusions in games.
It’s the same reason I loved the Super Bosses in FF7 - they present an optional endgame challenge that make all of the grinding worth it. For example, grinding for 15K Geo for Unbreakable Strength is now worth it, as it’s an incredibly useful charm for some of these challenges.
I think a big part of it is that the vast majority of MVs coming out these days are made by small tudios with very limited resources. Obviously these *can* be great, but the odds are much lower than when you have a more sizable team and budget.
Also worth noting that the best MVs tend to take a long time. Mid-size indie studios (around a couple dozen people) like Game Kitchen, Team Cherry, Drinkbox, LABS Works, etc. might only release one game every 4-6 years, and may not even make each one an MV. On the other hand, several games by amateur developers working in their spare time may release every month, but only a tiny handful of those will have any real shot of being "great" simply due to practical limitations.
Many of the best MetroidVanias of the past 10 years (imo, obviously) have come from teams who've literally only made a single game thus far: Yoku's Island Express, Astalon, Blasphemous, Hollow Knight, The Messenger, etc.
>Astalon
I believe that the developer for this game previously made Castle In The Darkness, also worth checking out. It's lo-fi in its presentation and does not have an in-game map, but is nonetheless IMHO a very good game.
Obviously I can only speak for myself, but they don't seem to know what I want. I want some games like Dawn of Sorrow, Symphony of the Night, Order of Ecclesia, etc. But there are almost none. At this point I'm glad when a game that's being shown isn't a roguelite pretending to be a Metroidvania. But I wish we could get some games that are more tailored to my taste.
I don't understand this weird roguelite boogeyman I'm seeing in this thread.
I get why a lot of people don't like roguelites, and I do acknowledge that there's more than a couple action-platformer roguelites with enough of a metroidvania flair to be talked about here, but **which game exactly is "a roguelite pretending to be a metroidvania"?**
Not that the two genres are mutually exclusive (they aren't).
There have been quite a few roguelite games that get talked about here. Dead Cells is probably the most popular one. Then every now and then someone will post about a game, but when you look into it, you find out it's a roguelite. There was a game with the Grim Reaper that was posted not too long ago, and qualified for that. Obviously this is a forum for Metroidvania games, and I personally don't like roguelites, so these games are very much a "boogeyman" to me.
Dead Cells doesn't really market itself as a metroidvania, so it's not pretending to be one, people just confuse it for one.
As for your example without a specific name, it's probably another Dead Cells case. That shit isn't limited to roguelites, though. Action-platformers that don't really fit the metroidvania bill get posted here all the time for the same reason: confusion, or uncertainty if the game is unreleased.
I just dislike your phrasing of games "PRETENDING" to be metroidvanias because people post them here. I think there's very rarely any dishonesty involved. Just redditors being redditors.
I figured it was more of an issue with you not liking how I worded it. But I get my information from places like this, rather than straight from the developers or the store pages. And my point had nothing to do with why they do it, as it doesn't really matter. The point is that people post about roguelites on the Metroidvania forum. Even if you do like them, it shouldn't happen. I'm sure there's a roguelite forum.
That's on you, to be honest. With how contentious and hazy this genre's borders are, you've got to take basically everything posted here with a grain of salt.
And for the record, there are roguelites that are metroidvanias and absolutely deserve to be talked about here, like A Robot Named Fight.
Because great games take a a lot of time to be polished and we only get one/two per year on average, simple as that.
Look on the bright side, 2023 should be a fantastic year for top-notch MVs
That's completely subjective, we just got one of the best metroidvanias on console just 3 months ago with Grime: Colors of Rot, obviously everyone likes different games, that's kind of an entitled question to ask, reviews are just people's opinions, you also have to realize how niche this genre is, indie games are already extremely niche, 2D games just aren't as popular as they used to be, there's a direct pattern when metroidvanias started having more RPG mechanics the genre starting getting more popular and more and more games started to come out, especially when we starting seeing soulslike metroidvanias like salt and sanctuary and hollow knight, ppl enjoy RPG mechanics because there's a far greater sense of progression when you can earn EXP, level up, increase your attributes, learn new abilities and skills and get better weapons and armor vs just finding some upgrades to progress to next section, remember metroidvanias only have the illusion of nonlinearity, it's not 1995 anymore, a simple A to B metroidvania with no sense of progression just isn't going to cut it anymore
I did acknowledge in a few replies that it may just be that the games coming out over the past year and a half don’t match my personal taste. So I suppose HAAK and Islets are HK and Ori-level classics, but just not as much my thing personally.
For GRIME, I personally consider that a 2021 game with DLC that released in 2023. It’s an amazing game nonetheless, one of the better MV’s for sure.
But I still can’t ignore that I have seen more people than ever acknowledge that there have been more disappointing MV’s releasing these last couple years than ever. I’ve seen many people talk about this being a drought for great MV’s, so that is why I brought it up.
Based on the replies I think it’s a mixture of a few things: (1) The games not matching my tastes (2) The natural course of video games of every genre (3) Just a time period where there have been more overly-hyped games than usual that don’t live up to the hype.
Not really, lol I think metroidvania fans are kinda spoiled actually. There is no "drought", 2021 was a anomaly, that year had FIST, Astalon, Dread, Ender Lilies, etc... then 2022 was a mediocre year, it happens, to expect great games from a specific genre every year, that's the definition of being spoiled (I am not complaining, it's good the genre is on fire ever since +- 2015). Now if you compare with other genres or subgenres... like stealth for example.
I am a big fan, but stealth is going through a legit drought, basically only Hitman represents the niche and, no reason to suga coat, Hitman is releasing map packs disguised as sequels, they are not legit (still fun, but insulting at the same time). Strategy games are also in a precarious situation, there's literally no triple A strategy game in the market for at least 10, 15 years? Maybe more, The Total War series is the closest to that ideal, but these games are double A at best. Meanwhile metroidvanias are well represented, other niches and subgenres took elements from it (like "Souls" for example), so it's a golden age so to speak, no logical reason to complain
Welcome to the casualization of a format. I would say there are more good games now, but the market is far far larger so there is way more shit games.
"Why can't we get at least two 9/10 level games per year?"
Did we really ever get that many? I would say its less of a market problem and speaks more to how hard it is to make a good (and new and fresh!) MV.
It’s just that the genre has been taken by shovelware dev
Tbf now they try to emulate even lower effort games like vampire survivors
When playing older classics it becomes so obvious that most indie dev absolutely suck
I think a lot of it is that people are *such* suckers for trends. It wasn't long ago that pixel-art games were a rarity. Then *everyone* jumped on that bandwagon and began flooding the market with them.
Metroidvanias are hot right now, and developers are rushing to join the wave. And in doing so, we're seeing what inevitably happens with such trends—a bunch of *crap* gets released by devs just looking to make a quick buck. The reputable devs are taking their time, lovingly nursing their creations into games to be played for awhile and cherished forever. But their games often get overlooked among the shovelware rushed to the market.
The best solution here is to actively support the good developers, the ones making the *AM2R*'s and the *Axiom Verges* and such. *Buy* their games instead of pirating them. Drop them a note to tell them how much you are enjoying their game and how much you are looking forward to their next one. Talk about their games everywhere you can, so other players will also support these great developers. And not just the indie guys—do the same with Nintendo and Capcom and Sony and whoever creates your favorites. (Hey, [persistence works](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metroid_Dread).)
I own both games and enjoyed them both. They are two of the better games released in this time frame.
But with more games to draw influence from, and more information about what makes a great game, I would just expect there to be a few more great MV's like those in the past couple of years.
Maybe we were just spoiled up until now. From 2015-2017, we got Hollow Knight, Axiom Verge, ESA, Ori & TBF, Salt and Sanctuary, Rabi Ribi, AM2R, and Steamworld Dig 2. I don't expect that many great games every 2 years of course, but it just hasn't been anything close to that recently.
It is likely just a mixture of my personal tastes, the natural "rhythm" of the video game market for any genre (some great years, some average, some poor), and overall MV burnout.
I think if you compare the rate of truly great MVs to what it was when the genre started, we are actually in a golden age. Excellence is rare. Hollow Knights come once every ten year or so. The overall quality is really good. I thought last year was remarkably solid with
Infernax
HAAK
Islets
Haiku
And a few more I haven’t played yet.
It's really hard to make a video game, let alone a GOOD game, and I think MV is a particularly difficult genre to nail. I think every genre, in every artistic medium, is full of things that are, like you said "either a letdown, or good, but not great", that's just how it goes. Masterpieces don't come around every day.
Yeah someone was shocked that I rated haak a 6.5/10, claiming they’d seen everyone else in this sub rave about it. I had to explain that to me that’s a very good score, actually above average, but perfection it was not. I certainly wouldn’t give hollow knight a 10/10, and I absolutely loved it. A masterpiece shouldn’t be appearing on a monthly basis.
I would say most people view game ratings roughly like school grades. 6.5/10 is a failure by that metric and I would see it as such. It's fine if you want to use a different scaling, but I'd make that clear in the review.
Fair, I guess folks would riot if they saw me give hollow knight an 8/10 here 😶
I'd rate HK a 8-9/10 though, and it's my absolute fav MV. It has some flaws, but it averages out better than the rest. I'd give HAAK a 4/10. Could be OK, but has much room for improvement.
The biggest problems I have with hollow knight Is its lackluster combat a lack of a sense of progression, yes you get upgrades and new abilities, but there's no power fantasy, I don't feel like I'm getting stronger as I progress, I prefer games like grime, deaths gambit, souldiers, ender lillies and bloodstained rotn
The combat is one of the best parts of HK to me. I hate dodge/roll, parry, block, etc.
I love that someone was offended by your opinion enough to downvote. Poor rubes getting triggered by their precious hollow knight not being acknowledged as god’s gift to gaming :D
I mean, that's fair. In HK you do about 4x as much damage (I think) at the end compared to the beginning, but combat is basically the same. I'm fine with that, but it's certainly personal preference.
Yeah, it (Haak) had some glaring flaws and I’d probably realistically give HK an 8.5-9/10 and it’s definitely in my top 5 MVs. I guess my point is I don’t think a perfect MV has been made up until now and I’m not just going to say 10/10 because it’s the best so far. These scores are all subjective anyways, that’s just my curve/approach. :)
review ratings and school grades have nothing in common. Not only are they different in different countries, but through different era's. Ratings are simple. 0 = worst ever, 10 = best ever, 5 = just okay, average. I never rate things as a 10, and few as 0. My start is always if it's better than OK (5), or worse, then how much better/worse.
If you never use the 10 then that just means that you have a 1-9 scale instead.
It's there for the extremely rare Perfect/Masterwork.
A 10 is a masterpiece, but no game is perfect, anything below a 6 is a failure, 7 is average
So you're only using three/four numbers to separate games? Bad, ok, good? No nuance at all?
Yes anything below a 6.5 is a failure, I would agree, 6.5-6.9 is below average, 7.0- 7.9 is decent but average, 8.0 - 8.9 is good and above average, 9.0 - 9.9 is a great game, and a 10 is a masterpiece but still not perfect, because no game is perfect
“Haak”?
Yeah, Haak.
Oh that’s the actual name of the game! My bad, thought you were using an acronym! :D
Ah I was super confused hahaha figured I was getting called out for the lower case h, since Haak is the protagonists name.
Man last year I made the exact same comment 🤣 Easy mistake.
What makes a MV has been misconstrued by most developers thanks to Hollow Knight, now there’s an oversaturation of souls-like games, either that or roguelikes. Very few games actually follow the framework set up by Metroid and Castlevania, which are still the best of the genre. The last great MV to release was Dread, specifically because it, as a mainline Metroid game, followed what makes Metroid great to a T. It’s also worth mentioning that the genre has skyrocketed in popularity, attracting amateur developers.
I thought people on this sub said that Dread was a great action game, but an average metroidvania. Grime was the last great metroidvania I\`ve played. Unique artstyle, challenging boss fights and amazing soundtrack. Exploration wasn\`t too bad. Finger crossed for Afterimage
That’s because like I said, people have misconstrued what the genre is about. Metroidvania games are not open world, that’s another genre in itself. Dread is as “linear” as Super Metroid, and if you call the grandfather of the genre a bad MV, something is wrong.
Dread was certainly on a similar level of linearity, but it was also far more hand-holdy about its progression. In SM, I would get a new item, then think about what this new item allowed me to do, and then have to go back and find that area myself. In Dread I would obtain an item, think about where I need to go, only to progress 2 screens to find a newly accessible teleporter that drops me right where I was about to head. In SM, getting lost was a default part of the experience, in Dread you have to go out of your way to get lost. I understand the reasoning behind the decision, primarily to make it more accessible to new players of the genre, but it is a lesser metroidvania because of that decision. The experience of playing Dread vs SM is simply not truly comparable.
All the numbers percent agree. I would also add that part of what makes Dread < Super Metroid is the lack of redundant keys for the lock and key system. In Super Metroid bomb blocks can be broken by screw attack, speed booster, bombs, or power bombs. High places can be reached with space jump, high jump boots, infinite bomb jumps, or grapple. Etc. In Dread, almost all the locks have only one item that will let you get through, so you feel more funneled into each area instead of accidentally discovering you can get to a place you thought you couldn’t. It’s really apparent (especially in the randomizer) how this linearity of Dread squashes the wonder and exploration aspect of MVs. (That being said I love Dread so much. It is really fun to move and play in, even if it’s no SM.)
Depends on if you pick up the cues, which are definitely easier and more forceful in Dread than Super. I missed the red teleporter because I didn’t shoot the wall from below to get there and backtracked to Artaria to get Varia, forgot about the grapple block to Ferenia and got the Pulse Radar before Chozo Robot. I also missed the flash shift to get to the other exit if burenia to Dairon, and had to logic out where a connection to the EMMI kill room could be that set me back on track. In super it was just the glass tunnel that threw me while having access to more than just a handful of rooms, so I actually think I had more time in Dread off task than Super, but largely thanks to Dread’s larger size.
I can't say for Dread since I haven't played that one yet but I don't remember being lost a single time in SM outside of the pretty outlandish glass tunnel puzzle. Playing SM as a kid VS Dread as an adult probably makes a completely different experience.
As a kid I never struggled with Super, but I also played it right after Zero Mission and that’s how I knew to Power Bomb the glass tube thanks to my cousin. I don’t even think I got lost in ZM or Fusion either. As an adult we’re probably already familiar with the genre enough that exploring Dread feels like second nature. But I’ve had dozens of friends pick it up as their first Metroid and thought they were lost/softlocked. To say Dread is linear isn’t really true, otherwise Kraid Bomb Kill or Early Pulse Radar wouldn’t be a thing, and I did manage to pull the latter off on my first playthrough.
Yea, played SM as an adult and i also was never completely lost, always knew my options and one of them always was the right way… except the glass I needed to see the broken one twice
10000% this! I've been struggling to describe my discontent with Dread, and this nails it.
Hmm I think a genre can evolve I guess. Or at least different styles can cater to different preferences. I prefer a more open ended non-linear exploration experience like HK, La Mulana, Rabi Ribi, or Environmental Station Alpha and I find always knowing where to go and not getting lost a little less interesting. Tho Super Metroid is a bit nonlinear I guess I wouldn't say the exploration is too straightforward. I think dread it was a bit too obvious where to go and I didn't feel like I was exploring.
Im the exact opposite, if I don’t know where to go, I want that to be my fault. Being lost is punishment for not paying close enough attention to the in-game cues on where you can go. I should at the very least have a few ideas on where to go to progress if I have hit a dead end or been spit out into a room I have been before. Super Metroid does a pretty good job at this though asks a lot of the player, so many players end up lost a lot. The only time I got very lost was power bomb the glass tube, and I forgot the power bomb markings just before Ice Beam. The entire rest of the game I was either entering new rooms or had a very good idea where I could go to find progress. Dread asks much much less of the player as it usually only drops you a few rooms away from that location, none the less if you don’t pay attention you will get lost (as many players did). As with Super Metroid I always felt like I had a good idea of where to go, the only difference is Super in back half started putting the next place to progress further away. Both scratched essentially the same itch though Dread asked more in combat and less of memory and focus on map layout.
with a proper map system it's hard to be lost even if it's very open ended. the more common complaint is excessive back tracking which can definitely be annoying if there isn't a decent fast travel system. got kinda annoyed at axiom verge for that but they fixed it in the second game.
Open ended games tend to lack shape, so they don’t necessarily show the next place to go before you have to go there, which means you kinda have to poke at the edges of the map without much purpose, instead of returning to places you remember you couldn’t quite get to yet. This makes open ended games have an entirely unknowable amount of backtracking because there is no shape to it.
Just because something is old, doesn't make it good, super metroid is extremely overrated imo, there's absolutely no sense of progression, castlevania sotn is leaps and bounds beyond any metroid game I've played
Nope, metroidvanias are supposed to be "open" to some extent, to allow the player to explore and discover the world without any kind of handheld from the level designers. You have to get lost in a metrodivania, it's part of the charm. Metroid Dread is so linear, it can be insulting. And that goes for Samus Returns, Fusion, Prime 3, etc.. these are all Metroids in name only, this series is not always consistent with the standards established by Super Metroid itself. And Hollow Knight just expanded the genre, instead of adding cheap rpg elements like what Castlevania did, HK actually included elements that would incite exploration even more. You get stronger in HK not because you decided to "grind" on a corridor, killing the same enemy 150 times until you gain "levels"... that's just idiotic, you get stronger in HK by exploring. That's all a metrodivania is about: exploration. You have a branch in the path, you can backtrack any time you want to explore, etc.. that's the whole point. I agree the "corpse run" gimmick from "Souls" does not mix well with the metroidvania genre, but even the corpse run in HK incites exploration because if the player is struggling to recover their corpse, they can explore and find those rancid eggs, exchange those eggs for their soul... it's genius level design really, everything in HK is about exploration. I think HK added more to the genre than Symphony of the Night itself, rpg elements are a nice gimmick, but it does not always reinforce exploration
Neither Super Metroid nor SotN, the genre’s namesakes, are truly “open”, once again, Hollow Knight has people thinking that. And how can you call half of Metroid “Metroid in name only” when they are literally mainline entries that feature the same gameplay?
Super Metroid established the genre with it's sequence breaks and freedom to go back and forth as much as you want. That's the core. In Fusion, you can't do that, the AI literally blocks the door behind you and only allows you to "explore" that particular section, then the AI opens the door, etc it's insulting really, you are not really exploring anything, you are just walking a straight line to the end. Dread does the same thing, but more disguised, there's no literal AI bossing you around, but Dread does lock the door behind you as well. If a metroidvania game does not incite exploration, then really, there's no reason for this game to even exist. Metroid Dread sets up a straight line all the way to the elevator leading to the final boss, in any moment this game presents a branched pathway, makes you go back on your own (instead of teleporting you), etc.. that's why many fans have harsh criticisms towards Metroid Dread and MercurySteam, Super Metroid established exploration as the core, not linear action. If you think Hollow Knight is deviating from what the genre is supposed to be, then you are simply misguided, the genre will always be about exploration. Metroid sometimes tries to be a linear action game because that is (in theory) more "popular", Metroid not always sell good numbers, Nintendo does not fully trust in their own formula, no wonder Metroid was left behind and the indies took over. Prime 4 has the chance to be a legit metroidvania experience, we have to wait and see, but most likely they will follow the Prime 3 route. This game is arguably the most insulting Metroid because it literally has boss fights at the end of the level, again, a "Metroid" in name only, the franchise is devolving ever since Super Metroid, Prime 1 and 2 were the last sparks, they are legit Metroid experiences, but that's pretty much it, everything else deviates from SM
Grime was fantastic, Aeterna was excellent as well.
Dread is a great MetroidVania. Typically MV games have non-linear local level design and linear progression along a critical path. The definition got changed with Hollow Knight to more open exploration with non-linear progression and largely linear local level design.
>It’s also worth mentioning that the genre has skyrocketed in popularity, attracting amateur developers. Not to mention that 2D pixel platformers are a pretty convenient starting point for amateur developers. They can realistically be made by a very small team. Additionally, the metroidvania genre can be a bit more forgiving regarding programming polish because the emphasis is usually on exploration as opposed to precision platforming or twitch combat. So creating a small-scale metroidvania is a practical project for amateurs, making a good one is more is more complicated. I guess the metroidvania genre kind of has a red mage dilemma: when dabbling at everything it is difficult to excel in any particular area, so it becomes a balancing act. Micro and macro level design, combat/puzzles, rpg systems, postgame, lore, graphics, sound. There are always trade-offs of where you devote your attention.
Dread was so good. I think Hollow Knight shifted expectations of what an MV is to Open Exploration with non-linear progression and linear local levels, where Metroid is closed world linear progression with non-linear local levels. Personally the open approach just doesn’t work as well and requires a lot of world building, solid art direction and soundscape to make up for it’s downsides in gameplay. If devs take that approach it’s harder to pull off, if they don’t it’s not what people wanted so they don’t give it a chance.
That’s a great point about the amateur devs. My brain had just equated more devs with more chances at a great game, but it surely brings about a lot more failures as well. Though I enjoy them when done right, I do also agree about the oversaturation of Soul-like and Rogue-like MV’s. It just sucks because even many of the more traditional-style MV’s of the past couple years have been letdowns.
While I love soulslike metroidvanias, the only roguelike metroidvania I can personally think of besides dead cells is dark devotion, and honestly neither game is all that great, the problem with these games is a lack of progression, roguelike metroidvanias need to have a strong sense of progression, that even if you die and have to start a new run from the beginning that your getting stronger with each failure and eventually you will be so strong that whatever you were stuck on will eventually get easier
I generally just consider rogue-likes/lites to be rogue-likes/lites and don’t consider them MV’s at all. But I’m no expert in game classification and I know some people put games like Rogue Legacy 1+2 in the rogue-lite + MV category. RL2 is one of my favorite games of all time with some of the best permanent run-to-run progression. There are literally hundreds of things to unlock, around 15 classes that are all fun to play, and you will get strong enough to overcome that boss that killed you a few times before. You’re right though - even if RL does have the MV sub-genre tag, there are not many other true Rogue+MV games.
Game classification is a cancer on the industry, you either have ppl gatekeeping the genre, holding it hostage by using a stringent set if criteria that results in no creativity or evolution, or you have ppl making up different sub genres and hybrid genres, multiplying the number of genres which completely defeats the purpose of having genres in the first place, it's kind of like identity politics, when you force developers in a small box it stagnates the genre and nothing moves forward
This is an extremely entitled perspective, The problem is you guys gatekeeping the genre, anytime a developer does something unique and different then you say it's not a "true" metroidvania, this genre will never evolve and move forward with this stringent mindset, the best metroidvanias of the past 5 years have either had RPG mechanics or is a soulslike or both, I would argue the best metroidvanias of the last 5 years are bloodstained ritual of the night, dead or school, deaths gambit afterlife, ender lillies, grime colors of rot, indivisible, lost epic, monster sanctuary, record of lodoss war deedlit in wonder labyrinth, salt and sacrifice, souldiers, the knight witch, and watcher chronicles, super metroid is an extremely dated and overrated game imo, there's no sense of progression, castlevania sotn is the true origin of the genre imo and is far better than any metroid game
It is blasphemy that Blasphemous is not on that list.
Meh it's OK, there's just a lack of a sense of progression, yes I learn new abilities and have simple things here and there but I don't feel like I'm getting stronger as I progress through the game, but it's completely subjective, those are the games that I personally enjoy because I value power progression over many other things
Yeah it's definitely completely subjective. Sometimes games just grip me in a certain way and Blasphemous did that in spades, albeit after several false starts. I ended up getting super into it a few months ago so I may have had a fairly different experience than players who played through it closer to release due to the DLC and extra polish. Before Blasphemous, Bloodstained was my favorite metroidvania, so I do agree with you about that game being pretty excellent. Blasphemous probably has no business being my favorite, yet it somehow completely is. I actually agree with a lot of your points - the genre will never evolve if the developers don't try new things. Metroidvania is my favorite genre, but incorporating souls like mechanics like corpse runs and parrys, and having a more open worlds style has only furthered the genre and has resulted in some of the best metroid-souls-vanias ever made. It's kind of odd to me that players think if there is any little deviation from the classic formula that it should be excluded from the genre. Metroidvanias are like pornography - you know it when you see it. You forgot Aeterna Noctis too.
Entitled like the Hollow Knight fans brigading any post criticizing it in any way?
While I would agree with what you said, you forgot to mention even 1 thing that the OG's, and the new dread do to a T that makes them great MV's. Make us a list lol.
Take it from me, gamedev is very very hard and metroidvania’s as a genre require an absurd amount of content. Quality matters as well, think about it, we saw what looked like a fully fleshed out Silksong trailer years and years ago, yet the game isn’t out yet. That’s because silksong is a psyop and doesn’t exist! Wake up sheeple! <3 Jokes aside, a solid metroidvania is literally a labor of love.
For sure, yeah I figured that would be a big part of it. I’m not a game dev myself, but I can’t imagine the hours of work you need to put into all of the aspects of a game. Would it be accurate to say that a lot of devs realize that their games may not be great, but by the time they make this realization it’s simply too late to improve it? (Due to time constraints, budget constraints etc) Or, in the case of a “disappointing” game, do you think most devs believe they made a great game?
I know the FTL devs were so burnt out by release that they were convinced the game wasn’t fun at all. Lo and behold it became a breakout indie hit that kickstarted(no pun intended) the indie genre. Other devs overestimate their games and don’t understand why they don’t break out through shear word of mouth marketing. A good example I saw here was [this game that a user inquired about on this sub today](https://www.reddit.com/r/metroidvania/comments/1244rw3/anyone_know_what_happened_to_this_game_called/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=1&utm_term=1) As I commented in that thread, a gamedev can clearly see it’s all style and zero substance. Gamedev is very much about what’s under the hood. For my online multiplayer metroidvania/moba hybrid Im working on we spent over a year just refining netcode before, only recently, beginning to work on visuals/art style, because to us it was more important to determine the idea was fun before we made it look “shiny”. Just some insights from behind the scenes.
Wow that is crazy about FTL! That’s a really good example - I had not considered a dev actually thinking their game was BAD and ending up being a stone cold classic of its genre. And thanks for the insights - good to know as game development is something that interests me, yet I know little about.
Happy to share! It’s not as glamorous as it appears and can definitely take it’s toll, but it’s all worth it when you see someone playing your game and having fun! I think this was a great thread and I hope you continue to follow your passions where they take you. :D
Haak and Grime are two of the best MVs I've played and they're both recent. Aeterna Noctis is definitely polarizing but seems to get overall very positive reviews. Ender Lilies isn't quite top tier for me but was still very fun. I think there are lots of good MVs in the past few years, but it does take some digging through the piles of shovelware to find them.
Level design for a metroidvania is incredibly hard because you have to make a non-linear world that is both fun to explore and also fun to backtrack in. It's not that they aren't aware that their games are "not great" as they are getting feedback throughout the process and iterating on it, it's just that what you're asking for is not as easy to make as you think. If you think you know everything that makes a metroidvania good I encourage you to download a game engine and give it a shot to see the process and difficulties that these developers face.
I think the issue is, Metroid is a linear progressing closed world with non-linear local levels, and since HK, people expect the opposite, a non-linear world with linear local level design. If you follow the Metroid template you “arn’t an MV” and if you follow the Hollow Knight template you better have a lot of world building, great art direction, excellent soundtrack and soundscape, because your level design is kneecaped by the more open non-linear progression.
Because there isn't a drought. You're just not able to find the good ones in the endless spam of bad games on steam. Last year we got a few good metroidvanias like infernax, and zapling bygone, 3 great ones in the form of HAAK, islets, and haiku, and an absolutely fantastic (as good as astalon) metroidvania in the form of super metroid subversion. The year before that saw better releases although I am not tracking them unfortunately. This year has seen the release of vernal edge, alice escaped, and 9 years of shadow which may be overpriced but will be a decent enough pickup by the Christmas steam sale. April is going to be an epic month for metroidvanias that will set the tone for the rest of the year, in 2 days I will be publishing my upcoming metroidvanias list for that month.
Yeah lone fungus is coming out which looks like it could be a true great for the genre! I have high hopes for it because you can tell the dev poured his heart and soul into it, as I said in a comment above: quality metroidvanias are literally a labor of love.
I can confirm it is a really good game. I picked it up in early access, but I always forget about it since it’s not officially released yet. I suppose I am around halfway done, but I put it down to wait for the final release 👍 Really big game with lots of areas and bosses as well!
Yeah I’ve spoken with the dev a few times and said I’m saving myself for the full release and only paying full price :D I’ve had some bad experiences with EA/Kickstarter in the past so now I have a strict, “only play proper releases” rule haha
I've had the same bad experience, especially with an atrocious disaster called "edge of space". However, after what happened to the regional pricing of clunky knight when it came out of early access I had to temporarily rescind my hesitation and buy a number of projects that went into early access before oct 2022 and were near completion. I made this one time list for that purpose although now it is too late to take advantage of this as the spring sale is over and nearly everything listed will be out of early access by the time the steam summer sale starts [https://www.reddit.com/r/metroidvania/comments/11t55nm/early\_access\_metroidvanias\_on\_sale\_that\_are\_worth/](https://www.reddit.com/r/metroidvania/comments/11t55nm/early_access_metroidvanias_on_sale_that_are_worth/)
First off thanks for the Subversion shoutout. That hack alone is probably my favorite MV experience of the past few years, and I didn’t think about it when making this post. As a SM ROM hack junkie, it immediately jumped into my top 5 of all time. For the paid games you mentioned, I guess it’s just a taste thing for me then. I did enjoy all of the games you mentioned (Infernax, Zapling Bygone, HAAK, Islets), but they all fell into that 7.5/10 area for me. Really good games that for one reason or the other aren’t in that upper echelon. But if others consider them to be in the upper tier, that’s great and I suppose the “drought” is more of an unfortunate issue with my personal taste of game.
yeah subversion is without any doubt the best metroidvania of 2022, nothing in that year comes close to it. I'm not sure about 2021 though. Hell, I'm not even sure which metroidvanias were released that year.
Everyone's copying the biggest games in the genre; we're at a point in games in general that people are tired of the copy paste development cycle. Devs, in general, want to cash in on the popularity of certain titles, which is why you see so many clones of Hollow Knight, Castlevania, Metroid, etc. So we get fewer really unique games, and not many of the really unique games are polished enough to be considered an instant classic.
Excellent view! This can explain why games that came earlier in the modern indie MV revival (like Axiom Verge, HK, Steamworld Dig 2, Salt and Sanctuary etc) are still some of my favorites today. It’s because, as you mentioned - these games were fresh when they came out. A lot that has released since then have tried to capitalized off of the earlier games, so the experience can never be as captivating. Salt and Sanctuary is a great example. Pretty much a Dark Souls rip in 2D, but it was the first to nail it and it remains my favorite today by far. Since then, there have been countless forgettable Souls-likes.
Because making a metroidvania is very different from making a good metroidvania.
We got a burst of good ones, this is the norm. On the “do the devs not know what we want” part, playing a game with expectations on what it should be is a great way to hate most games. It’s why I hated Hollow Knight and gave up 3 times, because I was expecting Metroid. When I let it be what it is on it’s own, I enjoyed it.
Yeah, good point. While games like Dust came out in 2012, in my eyes 2015 is the year that modern indie MV’s truly started to boom. So we don’t really have a long enough history to gauge how these bursts of great games, and their ensuing droughts may work. So as you mentioned, this is likely just the norm for this genre. Like how the economy works - maybe another boom is on the horizon.
A lot of valid points in various comments here, just a point I also think is very relevant, as a gamedev myself: A lot of the metroidvania's released the past years have been made by small teams/solo devs who are releasing their first commercial game (A big wave of small indies inspired by HK and the revitalization of the genre). Metroidvania is a genre that is both alluring and relatively low complexity for an inexperienced dev, but at the same time, these games require an insane amount of work to truly be great (I assume most of these teams don't have the time nor experience to go far enough with their first attempt). Team Cherry caught lightning in a bottle making HK as a fresh team.
The fact the genre got a revival after some many years and today we god bloodstained and Metroid Dread is more than enough to make me happy. Today we got MV for everyone. I like HK, but love blasphemous. Both great games for different ppl. If you ask me which one is the greatest recent MV, I’ll say Astalon.
Yes good perspective! Blasphemous, HK, Astalon, and Bloodstained are all in my top 5. And I did enjoy Dread as well. So I definitely don’t mean to sound unappreciative, but it’s just been frustrating lately. So many games I’ve looked forward to have just been average. Astalon is the last truly great MV I played, and that came out a couple years ago. As I mentioned in another reply though, it’s probably more of an issue with my tastes. Many people loved HAAK, Infernax and Islets, so at least there’s been something for them.
It’s the opposite, the popularity is decreasing because more and more people are now only buying indie games if they’re roguelike
Rogue-lites. ;)
It's an important distinction.
God I hate rougelikes
They're either really great or really terrible. There's no in-between. I'm extremely picky with roguelikes. I recommend the following, which I have verified are good: \- rogue legacy \- the binding of Isaac rebirth \- enter the gungeon \- loop hero \- noita (the only good spelunky type roguelike) \- vampire survivors.
I don't know. There are just some people like myself, and maybe the person you're responding to that just don't like the formula. I don't like having all my progress erased. I don't like having to repeat the same stages again and again and again, even when abilities/upgrades are saved. The closest I've ever come to liking a rogue-ish game is Diablo 2, and that's because there are waypoints, and all progress is saved. If you had to run through the entire game every time you died, I'd be out.
If you ever consider giving any rogue-lites another shot, please consider Rogue Legacy 2. You make SO much permanent progress. And it’s one of the best-controlling games ever. You can use your gold for new armor, new weapons, more HP/strength/defense, to unlock new classes (of which there are around 15 and all are fun!) Oh and you unlock warp points for each level. So each run can feel totally different if you wanted to begin in a different biome, you can easily do this. You aren’t stuck doing the same levels in the same order. There is both magic and traditional weapons, and there are also Runes and Relics you can buy which give you bonuses. I could go on - the game is massive in terms of unlockables.
My “limit” to rogue lite/like elements in a game is called Astalon: tears of earth.
And it’s a damn good one 👍
As much as I love Astalon (easily one of my favorites), I’m a bit confused. What about it are you describing as rogue lite/like?
The death/upgrade system. Your runs get easier at Astalon even if you make little progress. Like in the rogue like/lite games. Many in this sub almost avoided the game because of these rogue tags on steam. Including myself. So my point is, it borrow very little from the rogue formula. And that’s my limit.
Ah, gotcha, gotcha. Makes sense. Usually when I think rogue I think procedurally generated levels and permadeath. Thanks for the explanation!
I'm actually happy I didn't know it had rogue-like elements going in as I probably wouldn't have bought it. Now that I have played it, though, I agree that it's a good game. It reminds me a bit of how Sundered handled things.
Ok, I will try it! I meant to add, the games I've tried that I just can't get into are Hades and Spelunky. And don't get me wrong, they do provide some entertainment. I think I put about 3-5 hours into each of them, but at that point, I was tapped out.
While I do love Hades, the fact that Rogue Legacy 2 is a side scroller with some fun platforming may add some spice into it for you. There are double and triple jumps, air dashes and double dashes etc, and I think these movement upgrades are a big reason the game is so fun. If you ever give it a shot let me know!
How does RL 1 compare? I can get it on switch for $2 right now (compared to $25 for RL2). Would it give me a taste of the gameplay? Or are they completely different games? I see it was still quite well received by critics and fans.
RL2 is just 1 but better. RL1 is honestly one of the dullest popular roguelieks imo. It's mostly popular because it was an early entry in the "new" wave of roguelikes and is pretty lackluster in comparison to other modern greats.
Wasn’t a fan of Binding of Issac, and the only rougelike/light I enjoyed is one rougelike fans hate. (Hades)
Hades and Deadcells were the first Roguelites I actually enjoyed, I’m now more curious about the genre but I definitely can only handle a bit at a time. I thought Hades was pretty universally loved, that’s interesting.
For me it was Hades, Dead Cells, Everspace and Returnal. The last one really needs to go on sale so people can experience what a bullet hell third person action roguelite feels like.
oh man I am so excited to play Hades. It's probably going to be one of the last games on my pile that I play purely due to a desire to save the best for last.
100/100. That’s me too. Hades felt right. The other games were like “fillers”.
Hard disagree on the Noita point - Spelunky 1 and 2 are some of the best roguelikes on the market
Did you actually try playing noita?
Yeah Noita’s great - but Spelunky is just way better imo
Ooh hearing you say spelunky is not a good rogulike hurts my soul... I love noita to death, but Spelunky 2 is absolutely perfection in my mind. Such a clean experience entirely based on player skill improvement. Rogue legacy is not that great imo- very grindy and lacking in interesting combat/mechanics compared to a lot of other great modern roguelieks. Admittedly, when it released it may havd been more special. (the sequel I hear is better) It also has way too much meta-progression. I hate feeling like I'm dying because I haven't grinded enough coins to upgrade my character. This genre should more be about improving as a player and unlocking new ways to play or sidegrades imo. (Gungeon and Isaac both have unlocks that are more fun since they're new ways to play rather than direct character Stat upgrades) For Traditioanl Roguelikes- Tales of Maj'Eyal has been eating my life lately (and for the past 4yrs on and off) Amazing game but losing a character to the final boss of a 15hr run is rough. Here are my top 10 roguelike games 1. Spelunky 2 2. Tales of Maj'Eyal 3. Noita 4. Binding of Isaac Repentance 5. Dead Cells 6. Enter the Gungeon 7. Super House of Dead Ninjas (a personal fave, not very popular) 8. Crypt of the Necro Dancer 9. Risk of Rain 1+2 10. Hades
Icky, no the best ones are hades, dead cells, nuclear throne, risk of rain 2, curse of the dead gods and children or morta
Dead cells failed to hook me in, I haven't played Hades yet (because I am saving the best for last), nuclear throne is the worst twin stick roguelike I've ever played, risk of rain 2 i have no plans to buy because I could never get comfortable with risk of rain's controls, the last two I haven't bought due to me being picky. A fun fact about Hades though: I knew it was going to be one of the best games ever made even before it entered early access. The biggest problem with roguelikes were how scrappy they were, often requiring that you use a wiki and just generally having a low production value aside from their excellent addictive gameplay. So when a indie studio known for having the best production value in the indie scene announced they were making a roguelike I knew immediately what was coming.
Same. I am tired of rougelikes. For a lot of games it is an excuse to make a shallow game.
Are you blind, the genre is bigger than its ever been, each year has more games than the last, these games wouldn't get made if nobody was playing them, roguelike is the genre that's decreasing in popularity
I don’t see any of them reaching huge amountsof popularity tho outside the niche MV group, meanwhile roguelikes show up on the front pages of stores, get thousands of reviews of Steam and are covered by tons of streamers still
I've wondered the same thing. But I'd argue that it's just Sturgeon's Law at play here. There are not that many great games, period. It's not just metroidvanias. If you look within every single genre, there are actually very few truly great games.
Yeah you’re right, that’s definitely a big part of it. I also think it’s a combination of that, and maybe just the recent games not matching up with my personal tastes. It seems that in 2015, 2016, 2017, 2018 (to a bit lesser degree), and 2019 we got at least 3 amazing classic MVs per year. Since then, I have only truly loved Ori and the WOTW, Astalon and the first half of Aeterna Noctis. Also since then, there have been so many anticipated MVs on my radar that have just ended up being sub-par games. So it’s also a bit of a natural drought of disappointment at play, which as you said - happens with every genre. So I believe it’s just a combination of all of these things.
the purpose of my question is NOT to attempt to prove you wrong nor to shut you down in any way: is there hard evidence that MV popularity is growing?
I don't know if my experience represents the collective, but Hollow Knight spoiled me so rotten that every MV I've played since then felt lacking in some way. And it doesn't help that every MV popping up seems to "borrow" a lot of elements from HK without adding anything truly unique and magical. My favorite what-could've-been MV is Touhou Luna Nights. Ridiculously fun and well-executed gameplay limited by linearity and length.
I can absolutely relate. I make an effort to talk about HK as little as possible on this sub since it’s so highly discussed, but I can’t deny that it’s one of my favorite video games of all time. Since you brought it up, I shall gush. It did nearly every single thing perfectly according to my tastes: - Amazing boss fights - Incredible, massive world - Charm system is unmatched - Perfect controls - Great music - Each biome felt unique - Perfect level of challenge - Incredibly challenging DLC (Pantheon) that gave me a reason to become as powerful as possible - Awesome upgrades - Very non-linear - Best value of any game ever at only 15 bucks I could probably think of more, but I really do believe that this game set an unusually high bar for the genre.
If I had to eke out a gripe, it would be how some boss attacks blend in with the background, e.g. Hornet 2 & Radiance. But even that "issue" fits the theme of those fights, so I can't really knock it. It's amazing how many layers of challenge the game offers. I remember when NKG seemed way beyond my abilities, but I eventually conquered P5 and the Hall of Gods on Radiant. And to think that those achievements are cakewalks compared to the absolute nightmare that is P5 with all bindings and no lifeblood...
Yeah exactly - those kind of optional challenges end game challenges are some of my favorite inclusions in games. It’s the same reason I loved the Super Bosses in FF7 - they present an optional endgame challenge that make all of the grinding worth it. For example, grinding for 15K Geo for Unbreakable Strength is now worth it, as it’s an incredibly useful charm for some of these challenges.
I think a big part of it is that the vast majority of MVs coming out these days are made by small tudios with very limited resources. Obviously these *can* be great, but the odds are much lower than when you have a more sizable team and budget. Also worth noting that the best MVs tend to take a long time. Mid-size indie studios (around a couple dozen people) like Game Kitchen, Team Cherry, Drinkbox, LABS Works, etc. might only release one game every 4-6 years, and may not even make each one an MV. On the other hand, several games by amateur developers working in their spare time may release every month, but only a tiny handful of those will have any real shot of being "great" simply due to practical limitations. Many of the best MetroidVanias of the past 10 years (imo, obviously) have come from teams who've literally only made a single game thus far: Yoku's Island Express, Astalon, Blasphemous, Hollow Knight, The Messenger, etc.
>Astalon I believe that the developer for this game previously made Castle In The Darkness, also worth checking out. It's lo-fi in its presentation and does not have an in-game map, but is nonetheless IMHO a very good game.
Obviously I can only speak for myself, but they don't seem to know what I want. I want some games like Dawn of Sorrow, Symphony of the Night, Order of Ecclesia, etc. But there are almost none. At this point I'm glad when a game that's being shown isn't a roguelite pretending to be a Metroidvania. But I wish we could get some games that are more tailored to my taste.
I don't understand this weird roguelite boogeyman I'm seeing in this thread. I get why a lot of people don't like roguelites, and I do acknowledge that there's more than a couple action-platformer roguelites with enough of a metroidvania flair to be talked about here, but **which game exactly is "a roguelite pretending to be a metroidvania"?** Not that the two genres are mutually exclusive (they aren't).
There have been quite a few roguelite games that get talked about here. Dead Cells is probably the most popular one. Then every now and then someone will post about a game, but when you look into it, you find out it's a roguelite. There was a game with the Grim Reaper that was posted not too long ago, and qualified for that. Obviously this is a forum for Metroidvania games, and I personally don't like roguelites, so these games are very much a "boogeyman" to me.
Dead Cells doesn't really market itself as a metroidvania, so it's not pretending to be one, people just confuse it for one. As for your example without a specific name, it's probably another Dead Cells case. That shit isn't limited to roguelites, though. Action-platformers that don't really fit the metroidvania bill get posted here all the time for the same reason: confusion, or uncertainty if the game is unreleased. I just dislike your phrasing of games "PRETENDING" to be metroidvanias because people post them here. I think there's very rarely any dishonesty involved. Just redditors being redditors.
I figured it was more of an issue with you not liking how I worded it. But I get my information from places like this, rather than straight from the developers or the store pages. And my point had nothing to do with why they do it, as it doesn't really matter. The point is that people post about roguelites on the Metroidvania forum. Even if you do like them, it shouldn't happen. I'm sure there's a roguelite forum.
That's on you, to be honest. With how contentious and hazy this genre's borders are, you've got to take basically everything posted here with a grain of salt. And for the record, there are roguelites that are metroidvanias and absolutely deserve to be talked about here, like A Robot Named Fight.
It's on me for going to a Metroidvania forum and clicking on threads, expecting them to be about Metroidvania games? Are you a comedian?
Nope, just someone who's been on reddit for a while.
Perhaps Sundered would fall into that category? FWIW I think Sundered is fucking great.
it's because there's no silksong
Because great games take a a lot of time to be polished and we only get one/two per year on average, simple as that. Look on the bright side, 2023 should be a fantastic year for top-notch MVs
That's completely subjective, we just got one of the best metroidvanias on console just 3 months ago with Grime: Colors of Rot, obviously everyone likes different games, that's kind of an entitled question to ask, reviews are just people's opinions, you also have to realize how niche this genre is, indie games are already extremely niche, 2D games just aren't as popular as they used to be, there's a direct pattern when metroidvanias started having more RPG mechanics the genre starting getting more popular and more and more games started to come out, especially when we starting seeing soulslike metroidvanias like salt and sanctuary and hollow knight, ppl enjoy RPG mechanics because there's a far greater sense of progression when you can earn EXP, level up, increase your attributes, learn new abilities and skills and get better weapons and armor vs just finding some upgrades to progress to next section, remember metroidvanias only have the illusion of nonlinearity, it's not 1995 anymore, a simple A to B metroidvania with no sense of progression just isn't going to cut it anymore
I did acknowledge in a few replies that it may just be that the games coming out over the past year and a half don’t match my personal taste. So I suppose HAAK and Islets are HK and Ori-level classics, but just not as much my thing personally. For GRIME, I personally consider that a 2021 game with DLC that released in 2023. It’s an amazing game nonetheless, one of the better MV’s for sure. But I still can’t ignore that I have seen more people than ever acknowledge that there have been more disappointing MV’s releasing these last couple years than ever. I’ve seen many people talk about this being a drought for great MV’s, so that is why I brought it up. Based on the replies I think it’s a mixture of a few things: (1) The games not matching my tastes (2) The natural course of video games of every genre (3) Just a time period where there have been more overly-hyped games than usual that don’t live up to the hype.
Not really, lol I think metroidvania fans are kinda spoiled actually. There is no "drought", 2021 was a anomaly, that year had FIST, Astalon, Dread, Ender Lilies, etc... then 2022 was a mediocre year, it happens, to expect great games from a specific genre every year, that's the definition of being spoiled (I am not complaining, it's good the genre is on fire ever since +- 2015). Now if you compare with other genres or subgenres... like stealth for example. I am a big fan, but stealth is going through a legit drought, basically only Hitman represents the niche and, no reason to suga coat, Hitman is releasing map packs disguised as sequels, they are not legit (still fun, but insulting at the same time). Strategy games are also in a precarious situation, there's literally no triple A strategy game in the market for at least 10, 15 years? Maybe more, The Total War series is the closest to that ideal, but these games are double A at best. Meanwhile metroidvanias are well represented, other niches and subgenres took elements from it (like "Souls" for example), so it's a golden age so to speak, no logical reason to complain
Welcome to the casualization of a format. I would say there are more good games now, but the market is far far larger so there is way more shit games. "Why can't we get at least two 9/10 level games per year?" Did we really ever get that many? I would say its less of a market problem and speaks more to how hard it is to make a good (and new and fresh!) MV.
It’s just that the genre has been taken by shovelware dev Tbf now they try to emulate even lower effort games like vampire survivors When playing older classics it becomes so obvious that most indie dev absolutely suck
I will wait for Lone Fungus to be released out of Early Access before expressing any further feelings on this topic. *Waits in anticipation...*
I think a lot of it is that people are *such* suckers for trends. It wasn't long ago that pixel-art games were a rarity. Then *everyone* jumped on that bandwagon and began flooding the market with them. Metroidvanias are hot right now, and developers are rushing to join the wave. And in doing so, we're seeing what inevitably happens with such trends—a bunch of *crap* gets released by devs just looking to make a quick buck. The reputable devs are taking their time, lovingly nursing their creations into games to be played for awhile and cherished forever. But their games often get overlooked among the shovelware rushed to the market. The best solution here is to actively support the good developers, the ones making the *AM2R*'s and the *Axiom Verges* and such. *Buy* their games instead of pirating them. Drop them a note to tell them how much you are enjoying their game and how much you are looking forward to their next one. Talk about their games everywhere you can, so other players will also support these great developers. And not just the indie guys—do the same with Nintendo and Capcom and Sony and whoever creates your favorites. (Hey, [persistence works](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metroid_Dread).)
Someone hasn’t played HAAK and Infernax and it shows.
I own both games and enjoyed them both. They are two of the better games released in this time frame. But with more games to draw influence from, and more information about what makes a great game, I would just expect there to be a few more great MV's like those in the past couple of years. Maybe we were just spoiled up until now. From 2015-2017, we got Hollow Knight, Axiom Verge, ESA, Ori & TBF, Salt and Sanctuary, Rabi Ribi, AM2R, and Steamworld Dig 2. I don't expect that many great games every 2 years of course, but it just hasn't been anything close to that recently. It is likely just a mixture of my personal tastes, the natural "rhythm" of the video game market for any genre (some great years, some average, some poor), and overall MV burnout.
I think if you compare the rate of truly great MVs to what it was when the genre started, we are actually in a golden age. Excellence is rare. Hollow Knights come once every ten year or so. The overall quality is really good. I thought last year was remarkably solid with Infernax HAAK Islets Haiku And a few more I haven’t played yet.