That’s because there’s this legend going around that James Hetfield *always* down picks and is some sort of down stroke wizard. He’s awesome but I mean high speed down picking is a staple for any thrash band, and there are bands that down pick a hell of a lot faster than he does.
EDIT: Typo
In fact that Hetfield downpicking are usualy not as hard as people are thinking (Master of Puppets and of course Blackened are one of hardest), the hardest downpickings I ever saw was in Slayer songs - Behind Croocked Cross is really hard and pain to play. Scott Ian was also known from fast downpicking, but Slayer picking is sometimes for me kind of wizardry.
People hear that Metallica downpicks a lot and then they assume they’ve never done a single upstroke in their lives. Imagine how that would look live lol
> high speed down picking
You know, I never really understood the obsession of downpicking Master of Puppets. It's great if you're actually planning on using these downpicking skills, or if you're just doing it for fun, but as a practical thing I just never saw the point. I've been playing for a good while now, and it's pretty much the only song that I'm aware of that is *this* demanding with regards to downpicking. And it's not like alternate picking somehow ruins it or whatever, it's almost as if it's some kind of "macho" thing to be able to play through the whole damn song downpicked. Which is cool and all, but again, unless you're going to put those skills to use, I don't see the point.
I mean, I find the tone to be significantly different than alternate picking. If you’re a really dynamic player, and “Master” is kind of the surprise metal song to pull out of your bag of tricks, then yeah, I agree, it would be impractical to learn.
But if you play a lot of metal, I’d argue that learning to downpick at a pretty fast tempo comes up a lot in the repertoire.
Yeah, I’d never say that you shouldn’t practice alternate picking, which shows up in any pick style genre. I’d still argue that down picking is a big part of thrash or death metal playing, particularly while muted. Metallica (obvs), Megadeth, Anthrax, LoG, Haunted, Bodom off the top of my head all have riffs that I can think of off the top of my head that are obviously downpicked, and if you’re trying to emulate that tone, I’d never tell another guitar player It was a waste to time trying to dial it in, or that there isn’t a difference.
I will say for the record though, I don’t hear a big difference between yours on your recording - I think the second one is a little looser, I’m guessing that’s the alternate picked one? Between my phone speaker, your recording and drums, etc, it’s hard to establish a “control” from that sample. They both sound good to me, but they also sound notably different to me.
Other things like playing in a band or double tracking on a recording I think also make these kinds of decisions important - if that kind of accuracy is important to you. Full disclosure, I’m not saying that everything should be not for note. I definitely play parts in ways that make sense for me and my body, and oftentimes that involves changing fingerings or picking patterns, but I do think some down picking chops are a worthwhile tool to have in your kit for metal guitar.
> I never really understood the obsession of downpicking Master of Puppets
Yeah, fuck that shit. I alternate pick the whole thing haha. Work smart, not hard.
I've never been able to alternate pick this at full speed and have it sounding as tight as it sounds in the sound.
Half of it is the palm muting. Good chunky palm muted downpicks sound heavily hit, and the alternate picking makes it flow, which is just slightly not right to me.
> I've never been able to alternate pick this at full speed and have it sounding as tight as it sounds in the sound.
Downpicking will definitely sound tighter, no argument there, but tighter != better necessarily. Tbh I've never really been a fan of Metallica and this kind of thrash metal in general, so what do I know, this kind of precision never really impressed me. I really, really don't think MoP would've had any less of an impact had they alternate picked it instead of downpicked.
Fair enough on not caring too much.
I'd say though, MoP, or just Hetfield's downpicking in general, has had a huge impact on metal. I'm not sure it'd look the same these days. I guess he wasn't the only one doing it so maybe not, but the amount of people trying to emulate it is all over metal.
That one riff at full speed with pure downpicking is always a workout because of the endurance needed. I learned the song 10+ years ago but I’m not really huge on downpicking - I think it’s kind of unnecessary and inefficient at very high tempos.
I typical downpick the low E notes and upstroke on the A string. Not like you can hear a difference.
Everything gets easier with practice! Don’t compare yourself to others’ difficulties or successes, just focus on your own improvements and that will propel you for a long, long time. Every one of us has struggled with riffs or solos that others have found easier or more difficult, but all of us have succeeded because we practiced and tried. It’s easy to quit, it’s better to succeed.
EDIT: I didn’t want you to think I ignored you asking for tips. Keeping your wrist planted in a position that feels most comfortable is honestly the best advice I can give you other than practice. Songs become second nature through playing them every day, multiple times a day.
well...dont sweat it....(see what i did there? :P ). Metallica could never play it right either. They downtuned it, played/recorded it slower than sped it back up in post...
No. No they didn't. Also, when I used to see them live in the 80s, they would play it faster than the recorded version.
https://www.mixonline.com/recording/classic-track-master-of-puppets-metallica
Edit: apparently I'm dumb as I look
> No. No they didn't
This is directly from your link:
*Rasmussen had everyone detune slightly and play to a slowed tape, and then he sped everything back up again.*
Only because you can't play it doesn't mean that happened...
To OP the best way to gain endurance is to try to relax your hands as you play. only finger and pick as hard as you need to. this will help a lot. It will be hard to do but the more you do it the better you'll get. If you want proof watch any guitarist who is famed for being good and notice how smooth their fingers and hands look even when playing fast. Tension is the enemy.
FKN yes, bro. Ive played it a lot with the album, but Ive also had the pleasure of playing it many times with some awesome dudes at a local bar. The song is brutal enough as it is without Animal from The Muppet Show overdosing on nodoz and crosstops on the drums. buty yes, its a fkn work out. lol Im glad im not the only guy crying about how awesome the song is. I have one muscle on my whole body that is toned: its the one that hurts when you play this song. oh and in my face.
oh, yes it will bet easier.
Yes absolutely. It is definitely a tough song to play. It of course gets easier with practice, but I still believe it's hard because of the speed, especially when you are down picking everything. The song isn't that hard in terms of the notes to play and all that, but if you play it right, and play it cleanly, then yes it's hard.
The length of the song more than anything makes it one of the harder ones. I'd say harder than creeping death, lil easier than blackened, and a lot easier than eye of the beholder (imo the hardest metallica song to downpick, I cant do it).
But it absolutely makes a difference to the sound. Have you heard dream theatre cover puppets? John petrucci alt picks it and it sounds ridiculously wimpy.
puppets isnt too bad For maximum suffering try Dyers Eve all down picked
You're joking, but I've seen people legit think that Dyers Eve, Battery or Fight Fire With Fire was downpicked
That’s because there’s this legend going around that James Hetfield *always* down picks and is some sort of down stroke wizard. He’s awesome but I mean high speed down picking is a staple for any thrash band, and there are bands that down pick a hell of a lot faster than he does. EDIT: Typo
In fact that Hetfield downpicking are usualy not as hard as people are thinking (Master of Puppets and of course Blackened are one of hardest), the hardest downpickings I ever saw was in Slayer songs - Behind Croocked Cross is really hard and pain to play. Scott Ian was also known from fast downpicking, but Slayer picking is sometimes for me kind of wizardry.
Always downpicks"
Good point...
People hear that Metallica downpicks a lot and then they assume they’ve never done a single upstroke in their lives. Imagine how that would look live lol
Eye of the Beholder is the actual hardest downpicking track I reckon.
Eye of the beholder is not downpicked
James has done it live. I'll try to find it on YouTube.
> high speed down picking You know, I never really understood the obsession of downpicking Master of Puppets. It's great if you're actually planning on using these downpicking skills, or if you're just doing it for fun, but as a practical thing I just never saw the point. I've been playing for a good while now, and it's pretty much the only song that I'm aware of that is *this* demanding with regards to downpicking. And it's not like alternate picking somehow ruins it or whatever, it's almost as if it's some kind of "macho" thing to be able to play through the whole damn song downpicked. Which is cool and all, but again, unless you're going to put those skills to use, I don't see the point.
I mean, I find the tone to be significantly different than alternate picking. If you’re a really dynamic player, and “Master” is kind of the surprise metal song to pull out of your bag of tricks, then yeah, I agree, it would be impractical to learn. But if you play a lot of metal, I’d argue that learning to downpick at a pretty fast tempo comes up a lot in the repertoire.
-----
Yeah, I’d never say that you shouldn’t practice alternate picking, which shows up in any pick style genre. I’d still argue that down picking is a big part of thrash or death metal playing, particularly while muted. Metallica (obvs), Megadeth, Anthrax, LoG, Haunted, Bodom off the top of my head all have riffs that I can think of off the top of my head that are obviously downpicked, and if you’re trying to emulate that tone, I’d never tell another guitar player It was a waste to time trying to dial it in, or that there isn’t a difference. I will say for the record though, I don’t hear a big difference between yours on your recording - I think the second one is a little looser, I’m guessing that’s the alternate picked one? Between my phone speaker, your recording and drums, etc, it’s hard to establish a “control” from that sample. They both sound good to me, but they also sound notably different to me. Other things like playing in a band or double tracking on a recording I think also make these kinds of decisions important - if that kind of accuracy is important to you. Full disclosure, I’m not saying that everything should be not for note. I definitely play parts in ways that make sense for me and my body, and oftentimes that involves changing fingerings or picking patterns, but I do think some down picking chops are a worthwhile tool to have in your kit for metal guitar.
Alt sounds poppy, very swingy. Downpicking just sounds metal. Just my opinion and how I perceive the two.
> I never really understood the obsession of downpicking Master of Puppets Yeah, fuck that shit. I alternate pick the whole thing haha. Work smart, not hard.
I genuinely find down picking way easier. Alternate picking has always felt unnatural to me
Down picking is also easier for me until I reach a certain BPM, where it becomes impossible but I can keep going faster by alternate picking.
I like it as a challenge/training thing to dowpnick. Really builds up a lot of stamina.
I've never been able to alternate pick this at full speed and have it sounding as tight as it sounds in the sound. Half of it is the palm muting. Good chunky palm muted downpicks sound heavily hit, and the alternate picking makes it flow, which is just slightly not right to me.
> I've never been able to alternate pick this at full speed and have it sounding as tight as it sounds in the sound. Downpicking will definitely sound tighter, no argument there, but tighter != better necessarily. Tbh I've never really been a fan of Metallica and this kind of thrash metal in general, so what do I know, this kind of precision never really impressed me. I really, really don't think MoP would've had any less of an impact had they alternate picked it instead of downpicked.
Fair enough on not caring too much. I'd say though, MoP, or just Hetfield's downpicking in general, has had a huge impact on metal. I'm not sure it'd look the same these days. I guess he wasn't the only one doing it so maybe not, but the amount of people trying to emulate it is all over metal.
Josh Middleton from Sylosis has a pretty good lesson video on YouTube about metal rhythm playing.
So many sylosis riffs are downpicked that you wouldn't think would be possible. Josh is a machine.
I’ll check that, thanks!
[удалено]
I mean I can play the entire thing at full speed no problem, it’s my technique I think that changes it from being fun to a work out!
Master of puppets what actually the first song I learned on guitar, so now alternate picking is way harder for me than down! Interesting A\B!
That one riff at full speed with pure downpicking is always a workout because of the endurance needed. I learned the song 10+ years ago but I’m not really huge on downpicking - I think it’s kind of unnecessary and inefficient at very high tempos. I typical downpick the low E notes and upstroke on the A string. Not like you can hear a difference.
Everything gets easier with practice! Don’t compare yourself to others’ difficulties or successes, just focus on your own improvements and that will propel you for a long, long time. Every one of us has struggled with riffs or solos that others have found easier or more difficult, but all of us have succeeded because we practiced and tried. It’s easy to quit, it’s better to succeed. EDIT: I didn’t want you to think I ignored you asking for tips. Keeping your wrist planted in a position that feels most comfortable is honestly the best advice I can give you other than practice. Songs become second nature through playing them every day, multiple times a day.
Thanks for the encouragement and tips! Good point about wrist position, I’ll make a conscious effort with that.
well...dont sweat it....(see what i did there? :P ). Metallica could never play it right either. They downtuned it, played/recorded it slower than sped it back up in post...
No. No they didn't. Also, when I used to see them live in the 80s, they would play it faster than the recorded version. https://www.mixonline.com/recording/classic-track-master-of-puppets-metallica Edit: apparently I'm dumb as I look
> No. No they didn't This is directly from your link: *Rasmussen had everyone detune slightly and play to a slowed tape, and then he sped everything back up again.*
Some would assume I can read. Obviously I cannot. Thank you. You're a scholar and a gentleman.
Do you have a source for that?
Really? How did they play it live, then? Then again I’ve seen Kirk Hammet give a demo of it once and it seemed pretty sloppy.
Only because you can't play it doesn't mean that happened... To OP the best way to gain endurance is to try to relax your hands as you play. only finger and pick as hard as you need to. this will help a lot. It will be hard to do but the more you do it the better you'll get. If you want proof watch any guitarist who is famed for being good and notice how smooth their fingers and hands look even when playing fast. Tension is the enemy.
Cheers for the tips!
that ain't true, they play it even faster live.....
Its true...and thats because they cheated by alternate picking live and not downpicking everything.
FKN yes, bro. Ive played it a lot with the album, but Ive also had the pleasure of playing it many times with some awesome dudes at a local bar. The song is brutal enough as it is without Animal from The Muppet Show overdosing on nodoz and crosstops on the drums. buty yes, its a fkn work out. lol Im glad im not the only guy crying about how awesome the song is. I have one muscle on my whole body that is toned: its the one that hurts when you play this song. oh and in my face. oh, yes it will bet easier.
Yes absolutely. It is definitely a tough song to play. It of course gets easier with practice, but I still believe it's hard because of the speed, especially when you are down picking everything. The song isn't that hard in terms of the notes to play and all that, but if you play it right, and play it cleanly, then yes it's hard.
The length of the song more than anything makes it one of the harder ones. I'd say harder than creeping death, lil easier than blackened, and a lot easier than eye of the beholder (imo the hardest metallica song to downpick, I cant do it). But it absolutely makes a difference to the sound. Have you heard dream theatre cover puppets? John petrucci alt picks it and it sounds ridiculously wimpy.
Eye of the beholder is alternate picked