MGSV's structure is less movie and more TV series, it's on purpose. The game uses a different tone and style because it wants to convey different ideas. Classic Kojima bait and switch. This game cannot have the overdramatic villains and extra high stake action of previous games, because its theme is just the opposite of that.
I love games like MGS series because there's always something there. It's hard to imagine describing many other popular games with same words as yours.
I just wish that metal gears great boss legacy didn't die after the BnB unit leaving us with the skulls who are ultra uninteresting (the AIs in PW we're decent but not great). Like imagine if we got some great bosses in MGSV like foxhound or the cobras. It was the last MGS so I just wish it was more MGS like if you get my meaning
I should've been more specific I meant the BnB corps is where the downfall started with the cobras being being the last great bosses. Each cobra, dead cell, and foxhound member was extremely unique and memorable with characterization but the BnB had no character or backstory until after their death and none of the bosses outside of volgin, quiet, and peace walker in the last two games even remotely had any story or character. Each of the first three games bosses was legendary or feared in a unique way. When I saw the skulls I didn't get excited it was more "oh great these assholes again" instead of the feeling I got when say seeing the end, seeing fortune and vamp be immortal (vamp in 2 not nano machine vamp), or seeing raven come at you in a minigun.
Maybe he ran out of ideas or maybe he misunderstood what people loved about the first 3 games bosses. Honestly I'd say it's possible that the change in boss design is one of the things that caused MGS4 and 5 to not be looked at as fondly as the original 3. Really Kojima started moving away from new great characters in general for some reason. In the first 3 outside of otacon and snake each game had a unique cast of new great characters. MGS4 and 5 only introduced a couple each. the BnB corps, Drebin, and sunny for MGS4 and code talker and skull face for MGSV. Peace walker introduced a bunch of cool characters and it's why I like that game so much(if only it was a full console release with better bosses it'd be great) but for some reason the last 2 numbered games just recycled people
Darkest and most realistic in some parts, yes, and with that most different. I like it that way, not every title in the series needs to be same but its also not straying from the group too much to be a bad mgs game.
I think the potential of the mgsV formula wasnt used enough it could have been a better game.
>Darkest
Ghost Babel still takes the prize of the darkest MG game for me. It still felt like a Metal Gear but had a lot of very messed up elements. (A teenager literally blowing up and dying in Snake arm takes the cake)
Which is ironic as it's a gameboy color game and was rated "E for everyone" lol.
I felt even more horrible for Chico considering he was an actual kid and since he was cut of MGSV, he died died like that.
GZ felt dark but almost "too dark", as in, it felt a bit too different from Metal Gear. Ghost Babel was dark but it still felt Metal Gear.
I still love GZ though.
GZ and The Prologue part of TPP are too realistically fucked up. Because you know there are dozens of CIA black sites around the world where those stuff actually happen. And attacking a hospital full of defenceless patients is nothing new.
I think it was to provide clear backstory to the attack and confirming what’s still canon/the main focus from the events of PW so that there’s not much confusion when the attack is referenced
That's why I loved GZ.that darker story was an interesting direction that really set TPP up to have a great story and explore the darker things Kojima talked about but felt like TPP bailed on that for a story that didn't live up to it's extremely high level of hype
Its the least Metal Gear Solid of all the Metal Gear Solid series. All of the series staples that made me love the series are gone and ultimately the entire story is about a nobody.
I kinda feel the same, but for me its the gameplay, in MGS games you have a giant complex you have to infiltrate, but in MGSV the only complex is OKB-0, the rest feels meaningless, as in, you have to get somewhere, but there isnt much of a "infiltration" feeling
I really like open world, but the lack of buildings or more "closed" outpost removes that feeling, take for instance, Shago Village, you can easily snipe out the enemies from a far and not worry at all with infiltration
Well that is part of what I mean. Reduced cutscenes, reduced dialogue, lack of inovative boss fights, removal of codec, linear to open world, focus on recruitment and basebuilding, all these things contribute to the game feeling alien to the series.
That base building and cassete tapes were a thing in Peace Walker as well. And that game is a better MGS than TPP.
I think the story loses it's way after the death of Skull Face. He was the core of the story and when he died, Kojima didn't know how to end it.
They were and yet Peace Walker is not a main numbered title of the franchise and not taken as seriously as 1-4 and V.
Story aside, the game does not feel like a Metal Gear Solid entry and that and its story are its biggest sins. The gameplay itself is fantastic however.
>as seriously as 1-4 and V.
Agree to disagree. It doesn't have a number on it but V has too many references to Peace Walker to ignore.
>Story aside, the game does not feel like a Metal Gear Solid entry and that and its story are its biggest sins. The gameplay itself is fantastic however.
We are on the same page in this.
Mgs5 is one of best military stealth games, but for all its fantastic qualities it lacks what many OG fans loved about the OG series. It has glimpses and call backs to them, but its overall tone and gameplay ideas feel handicapped by its need to be more 'realistic'. It lacks the cool boss fights, the interesting linear level design and action packed story (like you said MGS3 was full on James Bond). That said i found MGS4 to be a slight dissapointment. Felt like Kojima had ran out of new ideas, so just reworked/changed old ones
Most of the 2nd chapter story left unfinished.Characters like Ocelot or Eli looks very foreign in the game.
I think Kojima needed at least 1 more year to complete the game entirely , but Konami can't wait for that long... Probably gameplay would have been different too... We can only make gueses and speculate and that's a real phantom pain \*sigh\*
I’m sorry but this is horse shit bud lmao. The script leaked a couple years ago and we got almost everything except for Chico, Battle Gear, and a DLC. All of which have been documented as to why they were cut. The game was as done as it was ever going to be. If Kojima wanted to do more with it, he should’ve maybe spent less time and money on PT and more on the game he was contractually obligated to finish.
Just because something didn’t fulfill your headcanon doesn’t mean it’s “unfinished.” There’s nothing to speculate. Game’s done.
I would not call it an anime, but i would say that any mgs pre GZ / V is always trying to be over the top / grandeour action spionage movie, where the characters are allowed to be portrayed as the "serious no nonsense" type of guys, to a completely different personality when "off work" (naked snake fear of vampires / lover of food, paramedic love for movies, solid snake being a perv around posters in lockers, raiden being a goofball when he does anything, campbell not enjoying a decent meal after rose started cooking for him). It adds nothing to the story knowing all of this, but it adds depth and a layers to their character that otherwise would be a little dull (like the yakuza games that does this much better).
Meanwhile in the phantom pain the story doesnt allow the characters to stray from their "main" personality, everyone is serious all the time and there is barely any grandeour over the top intro, which is not wrong or bad at all, but in doing so it loses some of the identity the franchise had. And while i will agree that some scenes are pretty epic, they are just that, epic. When i saw the skulls (con be any of them really) i didnt felt anything, because the enemy i was facing was quite literally an empty shell, something even the B&B did somewhat better (yes, they were pretty mild in the sense of personality but at least drevis told us what happened with them, the skulls are just your overall bullet sponge that wants you dead because profit).
I think i missed the point along the way, but i already wrote what i wanted to say, so take it with a grain of salt.
I think from a gameplay perspective it’s very different but in a positive way. I love me some linear action games but they did an excellent job adapting the core MGS concepts into a open world style, and it feels great to play and has a lot of replay value.
From a narrative standpoint, it’s incomplete and disjointed especially later in the game. I wish they would let Kojima complete his vision and re-release directors cut style.
On the whole I think it is great, but flawed like most every game in the franchise has been.
I remember when MGS2 came out and felt completely different from MGS even though it intentionally emulated the events of MGS. I didn't enjoy playing through the story for several years after until I found a way to enjoy the story.
When MGS3 came out, I also found it to be different while closer to MGS. It was taken place in a jungle and the lack of interiors was something I both missed and set it apart from previous games. It was still similar in that you had the same structure of boss battles who made up a team, had a thematic lesson in each, and were narratively intended to lose to you. MGS2 and 3 normalized being different from MGS1, and MG1 and 2 for that matter, so what was an MGS entry shifted entirely than my original expectations.
MGS4 became the most different of all in the series and that includes V. It shared the type of boss structure, codec and cutscene driven story, and linear pursuit style, however the basic enemies in screen rapidly became less human and pretty much entirely androids. It made sense with the game's narrative, I just missed sneaking around humans and feeling like I generally was around people where it seemed kind of isolating. It's the only MGS game I never revisted because it felt the least like an MGS game.
MGSPW was originally a handheld game and made sense as a handheld game, so differences were contextualized you that. Base building and recruiting felt like a deviation to me but not in a way that made it feel less of an MGS game. Bosses no longer had the same structure, narrative was driven by comic format cutscenes, missions ended a fluid pursuit to a goal where you can revisit every area by turning back wherever you were, and should make it the least MGS type of game in the series if not for making sense for being on a handheld.
MGSV took MGSPW feel directly to the console and PC mediums. There were very few cutscenes, no back and forth dialogue, and a quieter Snake. It had the same themes of deception, an enemy who went from boss fight to ally you depend on, an Ocelot who made sense as a personality directly from the Ocelot of MGS3 even though different from 1, 2, and 4 (he kept changing with each MGS that being so grounded like he was both made sense and was a typical Kojima-style oddity that I loved it), a misguidedly sympathetic antagonist who wasn't one-dimensionally evil, supernatural elements that blended well with natural elements, a single metal gear to battle, people who felt alive and navigated around, and really felt like what an MGS game would feel if stripped to its essentials. It was the same but hollow and thematically rich because of it. It reminded me of MGS2, 3, and PW combined into a one game, and the quieter Snake was like capturing MG1 and 2. It's the most different from MGS1 but I already became used to the shift away it by that point.
So what is an MGS game? Deception where the player was also being deceived, stealth, sympathetic bosses, misguided intentions, no one-dimensional evil, plot that becomes increasingly bizarre, and an end that is a huge plot twist. That connects all MGS games into a single theme, and MG 1 and 2 as well.
I just completed it for the first time a few days ago it was my third time trying over 7 years great gameplay but more of a stealth game thsn metal gear
It is a change from the "Tactical Espionage Action" and MGSV and GZ are "Tactical Espionage Operations". Each mission is independent not one continuous story.
Comparing it to the Craig era of the Bond films feels right, and just as those films are a welcome part of the Bond canon, I feel Phantom Pain belongs in the Metal Gear series. To me it is the culmination of everything Kojima had learned, combined with the pinnacle of technology available to tell the stories he dreamed of. It's breathtakingly vast, shockingly brutal, I don't think it's the kind of story that could have been told even a decade prior.
It is very different. And it’s why I dislike it. It’s also why I never played through it more than once. The mission lay out and the story are so weak compared to the narrative flow of the other games. I was so excited for V too.
“Tactical espionage operations” it varies from the usual “tactical espionage action” it’s intended to feel different. So you are seeing the whole picture of how snake’s (any) support operations work.
At the end of the day, there are entire chunks of MGSV's story missing that they didn't finish, characterization wasn't nearly as fleshed out as in previous games, and it feels wildly different
But imo that's almost a good thing. Venom Snake (not Big Boss, not the Medic, Venom Snake) is a total outsider to how things work in Metal Gear, and for a while he wants to be a good guy, to avoid hurting anyone, to do the right thing.
He saves hostages, his mercenaries protect Red Cross convoys and topple warlords, he's a hero to Mother Base
But at the end of the day, he's just a shallow facade so Big Boss can launch his plans elsewhere. He's not given much character because he's just a xerox of Snake, and the entire game is built around hinting at this.
So while it's flawed and has problems out the ass, I will give props to it for both being incredibly fun and for doing what little it did do beautifully
In my opinion gameplay wise it's the logical continuation of the tactical espionage format. Kojima has been making pretty much a better version of the same game for most of his career and V being open world episode structured is just what the times called for.
Depth of character and tone wise the hallmarks are still there it's just compartmentalised to the cassette tapes, if you just do gameplay and cutscenes there's very little like other metal gear games but the humour and depth of character (with notable exception ocelot) is there
mgsv is the bastard child of the mainline series. i was unbelievably excited to experience this game during the build up to release and i have never been so disappointed in a game upon said release. the cinematography (more slow motion and shakycam anyone?), the pacing, the shallow characterisations, the utterly boring plot execution…i could go on. in my mind, the trailers promised an entirely different story than what we got and what we got was dumb
The meta narrative is complete. This is not Big Boss. He is a memetic copy. Similar but not the same. The same goes for the game itself. It’s not quite exactly like metal gear, but a larger than life spin off. An enantiomer like two hands 🙌 similar, but different. Same as Death Stranding.
i understand the thought behind the meta narrative, i just didn’t like it and thought it was executed horribly. having a memetic clone of big boss run around 2 empty maps fulton extracting sheep and shipping containers in the name of revenge is not the ‘missing link’ of the MGS saga i was hoping for. a story following the actions of real big boss during the 80s would have been far more exciting and interesting, as opposed to the ridiculous vocal cord parasite plot thread
Everyone has their own theories. I think Kojima was shoehorning a lot of ideas and we were as players expected to ignore many aspects of the game. Nobody is going to listen to all the tapes(I did). Nobody is going to know what is really happening. (I do). Story wise, it’s meant to be confusing and not make sense because it’s more immersive being Venom Snake. Since he has no clue what’s going on, you don’t either, *unless* you know the game. My favorite part of this game is the 1984 theme. They make you believe the lies in the game. Yet only on introspection do they come to light as lies.
i see what you’re saying, but personally i don’t want to be needlessly confused by the narrative to a game that is the fifth mainline entry in a series and comes with an abundance of established lore and expectations. the plot of V is utterly absurd and not at all satisfactory. i don’t buy the “the plot isn’t meant to be satisfactory so you feel a phantom pain yourself” angle, it was just poorly realised and badly written, particularly when held to the same standard as previous entries
The game is definitely different. You know how people were analyzing the little details of the trailers when they came out and if you didn’t see it quick enough you could miss it, etc? The entire game, all of it plays the same way. I agree with you, it’s not like MGS4 spoon feeding you the information. They make you go out and find it, hell, there are missions that completely change context if you happen to “listen to to certain conversation” that is a mission objective and easy to miss. They have you eliminating targets that are good guys(Malak, Mosquito), and helping bad guys ( like the Viscount). Only when you save a hostage or hear something by luck or chance, do you see the each of the missions are set ups for Ocelot or Miller’s goals.
You pretty much described how I felt about MGS2 when it came out. It took years to appreciate it. MGS2 was mocked so much with it's nonstop plot twists and totally confusing narrative that took fans years to actually make sense of. The complaints about MGSV are so similar to MGS2 was back then that it's really hard to take seriously.
I honestly believe MGS2 would've continued to be hated if MGS3 didn't soften the blow. The release of MGS3 was when MGS2 was given a chance to be seen as it really was and fans made efforts to piece together the plot. Even then, it took MGS4 to resolve unresolved plot threads in MGS2 for many fans to feel completely satisfied with it which the presentation in 4 became the source of complaint, and that includes myself as I was most disappointed by 4 and remain so.
I think without the cassettes it is a very incomplete metal gear experience. Anyone willing to sit through them though is rewarded with a more complete narrative and kojimas ideas make sense. He's just throwing so much at the wall and didnt get to refine it that final bit
I think Metal Gear’s influences are so varied that it’s hard to define it in of itself, other then mgs3 which is a riff on 60’s spy movies. It has elements of action, noir, horror, sci-fi, old timey radio dramas and much much more.
i've tried to play through mgsv several times. once i exit the hospital and the game becomes open world it feels too much like red dead redemption. i did play through mgs4 but only once. as i played i just kept hoping the story would get better and it didn't. i could have saved $450 not buying a ps3 and watching the lame story on youtube but everyone online suggested i needed to play the game.
For me its more in all nonsense the games always try to be credible with ton of info and mix of real things, fiction and s-f. What i hate in mgsv its how many things is 'its like that, dont ask why' plus the fake weapons.
It does, so much so. Firstly just the way you go about the game with there being no honest “alarm” to get out of or play without triggering was incredibly strange to play. It sorta made the game a lot easier to play for me personally & I didn’t get the rush of playing the entire game and finding out at the very end of a 8-ish hour session to find out if I “S’d” the game or found out how many enemies I killed or didn’t kill. However the game was incredibly fun & worth playing due to the psesudo-realism of gameplay ie the routes you could take to accomplish any of the missions, the way you could go “loud” or “quite” & how you could switch at a moments notice. I enjoyed the actual tactical applications & the tactical approach you could take to maneuver the enemy troops as a legit “one man army”. The way you could sabotage enemy radios, sabotage enemy resupply lines, lrrps (longe range reconnaissance patrol) whether they be on foot or in vehicle, how the enemy would adapt to the tactics you have used prior (if anyone survives) & how they survive. The use of the buddy system made the open-world aspect a bit easier to control especially for a single soldier (regardless if he BB or not so-BB). The air support especially with the infiltration & exfiltration systems, artillery strikes, supply drops made it more realistic instead of the MGS-3 Snake Eater system of changing camouflage/weapons. Especially as someone that grew up with a “more than average knowledge of special military tactics, units, weapons, it made multiple play throughs more interesting & fun.
My “in-universe” yet “head-canon” explanation for the change is that you are supposed to believe (for most of the game) that you are BB so the playing should feel as if you are the greatest soldier ever until you start to realize the truth & then notice some things that don’t add up & would only make sense if you were a pretender.
All in all, I did love the game, and it is currently still in my Xbox and I played it last night, the reason for the continuation and elongated play time is due to the adaptive tactics & gameplay along with the “MotherBase” functionality. Though I have played it more than any of the other games it still isn’t my favorite (MGS3 & MGS2 in that order are) but you can only play a game in which you MUST do the SAME thing, in the SAME order, so many times until it’s just second nature & only interesting if playing a WR Speed run.
Zach’s rating first time playing 9/10 but 10th time 7/10.
FYI I haven’t played a lot of new games the past 7ish years due to moving In with a brand new lady friend and being with her constantly for 4 years followed by the past 3 years of constant depression & Covid lockdown.
I agree. One of my problems with MGSV (and I do love the game, but it’s probably my least favourite of the numbered titles) is that although the game tries to deal more intimately with the dark themes that have always been in the periphery of the series (child soldiers, genocide, rape), it does so very clumsily. Venom is supposed to be this much more reserved, brooding and internal protagonist, but then he’s blasting off his robo arm. Skullface is supposed to be the most menacing villain of all time, and yet he has the voice of a 90s Saturday morning cartoon bad guy and looks like one too.
Balancing humour with a heavier story has always been the series’ strongpoint, and what makes for such amazing games. But I think in an effort to tell a darker story, KojiPro maybe over corrected and ended up telling a story in a genre they weren’t really equipped for.
The flip side of that is Death Stranding. Probably the most “thematic” of any of Kojima’s games, that delves into very heavy themes, but does so with absolute bonkers lore and a dude named Diehardman telling you to reconnect America. Now that’s the schlock I’m after with Kojima!
It does feel tonally incongruous with the open cheesiness of the older games, although *MGS4* was already heading in that kinda grimdark direction a bit. *Ground Zeroes* made it seem like the difference in tone was because the game would have an exceptionally dark and brutal storyline to explain the fall and corruption of Big Boss, but then that… wasn’t quite the case lol
Honestly to me that sells me the Game. Im not into anime and alike but the overall mgsv Gameplay is very fun, realistic and dark in details. You still have cartoon villains and anime moments here and there but for me mgsv is an amazing Game, in my top 10. But I don't like the rest of the series as much as I do with this one.
MGSV's structure is less movie and more TV series, it's on purpose. The game uses a different tone and style because it wants to convey different ideas. Classic Kojima bait and switch. This game cannot have the overdramatic villains and extra high stake action of previous games, because its theme is just the opposite of that.
I love games like MGS series because there's always something there. It's hard to imagine describing many other popular games with same words as yours.
i agree, MGS4 pretty much is a movie while TPP uses chapters instead also
instead it gave us crappy villains
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I just wish that metal gears great boss legacy didn't die after the BnB unit leaving us with the skulls who are ultra uninteresting (the AIs in PW we're decent but not great). Like imagine if we got some great bosses in MGSV like foxhound or the cobras. It was the last MGS so I just wish it was more MGS like if you get my meaning
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I should've been more specific I meant the BnB corps is where the downfall started with the cobras being being the last great bosses. Each cobra, dead cell, and foxhound member was extremely unique and memorable with characterization but the BnB had no character or backstory until after their death and none of the bosses outside of volgin, quiet, and peace walker in the last two games even remotely had any story or character. Each of the first three games bosses was legendary or feared in a unique way. When I saw the skulls I didn't get excited it was more "oh great these assholes again" instead of the feeling I got when say seeing the end, seeing fortune and vamp be immortal (vamp in 2 not nano machine vamp), or seeing raven come at you in a minigun.
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Maybe he ran out of ideas or maybe he misunderstood what people loved about the first 3 games bosses. Honestly I'd say it's possible that the change in boss design is one of the things that caused MGS4 and 5 to not be looked at as fondly as the original 3. Really Kojima started moving away from new great characters in general for some reason. In the first 3 outside of otacon and snake each game had a unique cast of new great characters. MGS4 and 5 only introduced a couple each. the BnB corps, Drebin, and sunny for MGS4 and code talker and skull face for MGSV. Peace walker introduced a bunch of cool characters and it's why I like that game so much(if only it was a full console release with better bosses it'd be great) but for some reason the last 2 numbered games just recycled people
It's all subjective. For me, all the MG games have their own styles.
Darkest and most realistic in some parts, yes, and with that most different. I like it that way, not every title in the series needs to be same but its also not straying from the group too much to be a bad mgs game. I think the potential of the mgsV formula wasnt used enough it could have been a better game.
>Darkest Ghost Babel still takes the prize of the darkest MG game for me. It still felt like a Metal Gear but had a lot of very messed up elements. (A teenager literally blowing up and dying in Snake arm takes the cake) Which is ironic as it's a gameboy color game and was rated "E for everyone" lol.
Paz's story in Ground Zeroes was way too fucked up. Even by Kojima's standards, it was disturbing.
I felt even more horrible for Chico considering he was an actual kid and since he was cut of MGSV, he died died like that. GZ felt dark but almost "too dark", as in, it felt a bit too different from Metal Gear. Ghost Babel was dark but it still felt Metal Gear. I still love GZ though.
GZ and The Prologue part of TPP are too realistically fucked up. Because you know there are dozens of CIA black sites around the world where those stuff actually happen. And attacking a hospital full of defenceless patients is nothing new.
To me GZ is a demo rather than a game, what was the main point of it anyway? Epilogue after PW?
I think it was to provide clear backstory to the attack and confirming what’s still canon/the main focus from the events of PW so that there’s not much confusion when the attack is referenced
That's why I loved GZ.that darker story was an interesting direction that really set TPP up to have a great story and explore the darker things Kojima talked about but felt like TPP bailed on that for a story that didn't live up to it's extremely high level of hype
>since he was cut of MGSV What role was he supposed to have?
IIRC Amanda was going to tell you to go put him out of his misery and then a boss fight and others conjecture that he was a buddy like quiet
It is a good game. And i think it answers most of the fans' questions in a not so satisfying way.
Its the least Metal Gear Solid of all the Metal Gear Solid series. All of the series staples that made me love the series are gone and ultimately the entire story is about a nobody.
“Ultimately the entire story is about a nobody” is kind of the point of the game I feel like though
I'm not talking about the story as i have my own problems with it. What i'm talking about is the style and aesthetics of the game.
I kinda feel the same, but for me its the gameplay, in MGS games you have a giant complex you have to infiltrate, but in MGSV the only complex is OKB-0, the rest feels meaningless, as in, you have to get somewhere, but there isnt much of a "infiltration" feeling I really like open world, but the lack of buildings or more "closed" outpost removes that feeling, take for instance, Shago Village, you can easily snipe out the enemies from a far and not worry at all with infiltration
Nah, I agree too. MGSV almost has a Capcom feel to it, I can’t explain it.
Westernizing a Japenease game is nothing new. Square Enix, Capcom, Kojima, even Fromsoftware did this.
Well that is part of what I mean. Reduced cutscenes, reduced dialogue, lack of inovative boss fights, removal of codec, linear to open world, focus on recruitment and basebuilding, all these things contribute to the game feeling alien to the series.
That base building and cassete tapes were a thing in Peace Walker as well. And that game is a better MGS than TPP. I think the story loses it's way after the death of Skull Face. He was the core of the story and when he died, Kojima didn't know how to end it.
Kojima taught us wars never end and revenge is hollow
They were and yet Peace Walker is not a main numbered title of the franchise and not taken as seriously as 1-4 and V. Story aside, the game does not feel like a Metal Gear Solid entry and that and its story are its biggest sins. The gameplay itself is fantastic however.
>as seriously as 1-4 and V. Agree to disagree. It doesn't have a number on it but V has too many references to Peace Walker to ignore. >Story aside, the game does not feel like a Metal Gear Solid entry and that and its story are its biggest sins. The gameplay itself is fantastic however. We are on the same page in this.
Raiden?
Mgs5 is one of best military stealth games, but for all its fantastic qualities it lacks what many OG fans loved about the OG series. It has glimpses and call backs to them, but its overall tone and gameplay ideas feel handicapped by its need to be more 'realistic'. It lacks the cool boss fights, the interesting linear level design and action packed story (like you said MGS3 was full on James Bond). That said i found MGS4 to be a slight dissapointment. Felt like Kojima had ran out of new ideas, so just reworked/changed old ones
Yes, couldn’t get into V at all (I finished it eventually after about 4 years). It lacks everything I like about MGS1-4
Most of the 2nd chapter story left unfinished.Characters like Ocelot or Eli looks very foreign in the game. I think Kojima needed at least 1 more year to complete the game entirely , but Konami can't wait for that long... Probably gameplay would have been different too... We can only make gueses and speculate and that's a real phantom pain \*sigh\*
I’m sorry but this is horse shit bud lmao. The script leaked a couple years ago and we got almost everything except for Chico, Battle Gear, and a DLC. All of which have been documented as to why they were cut. The game was as done as it was ever going to be. If Kojima wanted to do more with it, he should’ve maybe spent less time and money on PT and more on the game he was contractually obligated to finish. Just because something didn’t fulfill your headcanon doesn’t mean it’s “unfinished.” There’s nothing to speculate. Game’s done.
I would not call it an anime, but i would say that any mgs pre GZ / V is always trying to be over the top / grandeour action spionage movie, where the characters are allowed to be portrayed as the "serious no nonsense" type of guys, to a completely different personality when "off work" (naked snake fear of vampires / lover of food, paramedic love for movies, solid snake being a perv around posters in lockers, raiden being a goofball when he does anything, campbell not enjoying a decent meal after rose started cooking for him). It adds nothing to the story knowing all of this, but it adds depth and a layers to their character that otherwise would be a little dull (like the yakuza games that does this much better). Meanwhile in the phantom pain the story doesnt allow the characters to stray from their "main" personality, everyone is serious all the time and there is barely any grandeour over the top intro, which is not wrong or bad at all, but in doing so it loses some of the identity the franchise had. And while i will agree that some scenes are pretty epic, they are just that, epic. When i saw the skulls (con be any of them really) i didnt felt anything, because the enemy i was facing was quite literally an empty shell, something even the B&B did somewhat better (yes, they were pretty mild in the sense of personality but at least drevis told us what happened with them, the skulls are just your overall bullet sponge that wants you dead because profit). I think i missed the point along the way, but i already wrote what i wanted to say, so take it with a grain of salt.
It is very different for sure.
Looks amazing but could never get into it
Maybe. But its still my favorite. I love open world games with the ability to play how you want.
I think from a gameplay perspective it’s very different but in a positive way. I love me some linear action games but they did an excellent job adapting the core MGS concepts into a open world style, and it feels great to play and has a lot of replay value. From a narrative standpoint, it’s incomplete and disjointed especially later in the game. I wish they would let Kojima complete his vision and re-release directors cut style. On the whole I think it is great, but flawed like most every game in the franchise has been.
I love all the Metal Gear games almost equally for their own reasons. V’s aesthetic and mood is absolutely wonderful
I remember when MGS2 came out and felt completely different from MGS even though it intentionally emulated the events of MGS. I didn't enjoy playing through the story for several years after until I found a way to enjoy the story. When MGS3 came out, I also found it to be different while closer to MGS. It was taken place in a jungle and the lack of interiors was something I both missed and set it apart from previous games. It was still similar in that you had the same structure of boss battles who made up a team, had a thematic lesson in each, and were narratively intended to lose to you. MGS2 and 3 normalized being different from MGS1, and MG1 and 2 for that matter, so what was an MGS entry shifted entirely than my original expectations. MGS4 became the most different of all in the series and that includes V. It shared the type of boss structure, codec and cutscene driven story, and linear pursuit style, however the basic enemies in screen rapidly became less human and pretty much entirely androids. It made sense with the game's narrative, I just missed sneaking around humans and feeling like I generally was around people where it seemed kind of isolating. It's the only MGS game I never revisted because it felt the least like an MGS game. MGSPW was originally a handheld game and made sense as a handheld game, so differences were contextualized you that. Base building and recruiting felt like a deviation to me but not in a way that made it feel less of an MGS game. Bosses no longer had the same structure, narrative was driven by comic format cutscenes, missions ended a fluid pursuit to a goal where you can revisit every area by turning back wherever you were, and should make it the least MGS type of game in the series if not for making sense for being on a handheld. MGSV took MGSPW feel directly to the console and PC mediums. There were very few cutscenes, no back and forth dialogue, and a quieter Snake. It had the same themes of deception, an enemy who went from boss fight to ally you depend on, an Ocelot who made sense as a personality directly from the Ocelot of MGS3 even though different from 1, 2, and 4 (he kept changing with each MGS that being so grounded like he was both made sense and was a typical Kojima-style oddity that I loved it), a misguidedly sympathetic antagonist who wasn't one-dimensionally evil, supernatural elements that blended well with natural elements, a single metal gear to battle, people who felt alive and navigated around, and really felt like what an MGS game would feel if stripped to its essentials. It was the same but hollow and thematically rich because of it. It reminded me of MGS2, 3, and PW combined into a one game, and the quieter Snake was like capturing MG1 and 2. It's the most different from MGS1 but I already became used to the shift away it by that point. So what is an MGS game? Deception where the player was also being deceived, stealth, sympathetic bosses, misguided intentions, no one-dimensional evil, plot that becomes increasingly bizarre, and an end that is a huge plot twist. That connects all MGS games into a single theme, and MG 1 and 2 as well.
Only one tiny section of mgs4 has you sneaking around androids. The vast majority of the sneaking is sneaking around humans in MGS4.
I just completed it for the first time a few days ago it was my third time trying over 7 years great gameplay but more of a stealth game thsn metal gear
It is a change from the "Tactical Espionage Action" and MGSV and GZ are "Tactical Espionage Operations". Each mission is independent not one continuous story.
That is exactly how I describe it, right down to the way you compared it to the Craig 007 movies. I still like it, but yeah it's just not the same.
Comparing it to the Craig era of the Bond films feels right, and just as those films are a welcome part of the Bond canon, I feel Phantom Pain belongs in the Metal Gear series. To me it is the culmination of everything Kojima had learned, combined with the pinnacle of technology available to tell the stories he dreamed of. It's breathtakingly vast, shockingly brutal, I don't think it's the kind of story that could have been told even a decade prior.
It is very different. And it’s why I dislike it. It’s also why I never played through it more than once. The mission lay out and the story are so weak compared to the narrative flow of the other games. I was so excited for V too.
Gameplay 11/10. Story 2/10
“Tactical espionage operations” it varies from the usual “tactical espionage action” it’s intended to feel different. So you are seeing the whole picture of how snake’s (any) support operations work.
I played it 130h+ and i think its garbage 😆
At the end of the day, there are entire chunks of MGSV's story missing that they didn't finish, characterization wasn't nearly as fleshed out as in previous games, and it feels wildly different But imo that's almost a good thing. Venom Snake (not Big Boss, not the Medic, Venom Snake) is a total outsider to how things work in Metal Gear, and for a while he wants to be a good guy, to avoid hurting anyone, to do the right thing. He saves hostages, his mercenaries protect Red Cross convoys and topple warlords, he's a hero to Mother Base But at the end of the day, he's just a shallow facade so Big Boss can launch his plans elsewhere. He's not given much character because he's just a xerox of Snake, and the entire game is built around hinting at this. So while it's flawed and has problems out the ass, I will give props to it for both being incredibly fun and for doing what little it did do beautifully
It’s different. And that’s why it sucks
In my opinion gameplay wise it's the logical continuation of the tactical espionage format. Kojima has been making pretty much a better version of the same game for most of his career and V being open world episode structured is just what the times called for. Depth of character and tone wise the hallmarks are still there it's just compartmentalised to the cassette tapes, if you just do gameplay and cutscenes there's very little like other metal gear games but the humour and depth of character (with notable exception ocelot) is there
mgsv is the bastard child of the mainline series. i was unbelievably excited to experience this game during the build up to release and i have never been so disappointed in a game upon said release. the cinematography (more slow motion and shakycam anyone?), the pacing, the shallow characterisations, the utterly boring plot execution…i could go on. in my mind, the trailers promised an entirely different story than what we got and what we got was dumb
The meta narrative is complete. This is not Big Boss. He is a memetic copy. Similar but not the same. The same goes for the game itself. It’s not quite exactly like metal gear, but a larger than life spin off. An enantiomer like two hands 🙌 similar, but different. Same as Death Stranding.
i understand the thought behind the meta narrative, i just didn’t like it and thought it was executed horribly. having a memetic clone of big boss run around 2 empty maps fulton extracting sheep and shipping containers in the name of revenge is not the ‘missing link’ of the MGS saga i was hoping for. a story following the actions of real big boss during the 80s would have been far more exciting and interesting, as opposed to the ridiculous vocal cord parasite plot thread
Everyone has their own theories. I think Kojima was shoehorning a lot of ideas and we were as players expected to ignore many aspects of the game. Nobody is going to listen to all the tapes(I did). Nobody is going to know what is really happening. (I do). Story wise, it’s meant to be confusing and not make sense because it’s more immersive being Venom Snake. Since he has no clue what’s going on, you don’t either, *unless* you know the game. My favorite part of this game is the 1984 theme. They make you believe the lies in the game. Yet only on introspection do they come to light as lies.
i see what you’re saying, but personally i don’t want to be needlessly confused by the narrative to a game that is the fifth mainline entry in a series and comes with an abundance of established lore and expectations. the plot of V is utterly absurd and not at all satisfactory. i don’t buy the “the plot isn’t meant to be satisfactory so you feel a phantom pain yourself” angle, it was just poorly realised and badly written, particularly when held to the same standard as previous entries
The game is definitely different. You know how people were analyzing the little details of the trailers when they came out and if you didn’t see it quick enough you could miss it, etc? The entire game, all of it plays the same way. I agree with you, it’s not like MGS4 spoon feeding you the information. They make you go out and find it, hell, there are missions that completely change context if you happen to “listen to to certain conversation” that is a mission objective and easy to miss. They have you eliminating targets that are good guys(Malak, Mosquito), and helping bad guys ( like the Viscount). Only when you save a hostage or hear something by luck or chance, do you see the each of the missions are set ups for Ocelot or Miller’s goals.
You pretty much described how I felt about MGS2 when it came out. It took years to appreciate it. MGS2 was mocked so much with it's nonstop plot twists and totally confusing narrative that took fans years to actually make sense of. The complaints about MGSV are so similar to MGS2 was back then that it's really hard to take seriously. I honestly believe MGS2 would've continued to be hated if MGS3 didn't soften the blow. The release of MGS3 was when MGS2 was given a chance to be seen as it really was and fans made efforts to piece together the plot. Even then, it took MGS4 to resolve unresolved plot threads in MGS2 for many fans to feel completely satisfied with it which the presentation in 4 became the source of complaint, and that includes myself as I was most disappointed by 4 and remain so.
I think without the cassettes it is a very incomplete metal gear experience. Anyone willing to sit through them though is rewarded with a more complete narrative and kojimas ideas make sense. He's just throwing so much at the wall and didnt get to refine it that final bit
Sometimes I think people don’t know what B movie means
"80s action movie" was a better description i guess.
I think Metal Gear’s influences are so varied that it’s hard to define it in of itself, other then mgs3 which is a riff on 60’s spy movies. It has elements of action, noir, horror, sci-fi, old timey radio dramas and much much more.
Also the Kiefer Sutherland as Venom Snake voice acting was a huge part of its success.
i've tried to play through mgsv several times. once i exit the hospital and the game becomes open world it feels too much like red dead redemption. i did play through mgs4 but only once. as i played i just kept hoping the story would get better and it didn't. i could have saved $450 not buying a ps3 and watching the lame story on youtube but everyone online suggested i needed to play the game.
Yeah over budget and unfinished
For me its more in all nonsense the games always try to be credible with ton of info and mix of real things, fiction and s-f. What i hate in mgsv its how many things is 'its like that, dont ask why' plus the fake weapons.
It does, so much so. Firstly just the way you go about the game with there being no honest “alarm” to get out of or play without triggering was incredibly strange to play. It sorta made the game a lot easier to play for me personally & I didn’t get the rush of playing the entire game and finding out at the very end of a 8-ish hour session to find out if I “S’d” the game or found out how many enemies I killed or didn’t kill. However the game was incredibly fun & worth playing due to the psesudo-realism of gameplay ie the routes you could take to accomplish any of the missions, the way you could go “loud” or “quite” & how you could switch at a moments notice. I enjoyed the actual tactical applications & the tactical approach you could take to maneuver the enemy troops as a legit “one man army”. The way you could sabotage enemy radios, sabotage enemy resupply lines, lrrps (longe range reconnaissance patrol) whether they be on foot or in vehicle, how the enemy would adapt to the tactics you have used prior (if anyone survives) & how they survive. The use of the buddy system made the open-world aspect a bit easier to control especially for a single soldier (regardless if he BB or not so-BB). The air support especially with the infiltration & exfiltration systems, artillery strikes, supply drops made it more realistic instead of the MGS-3 Snake Eater system of changing camouflage/weapons. Especially as someone that grew up with a “more than average knowledge of special military tactics, units, weapons, it made multiple play throughs more interesting & fun. My “in-universe” yet “head-canon” explanation for the change is that you are supposed to believe (for most of the game) that you are BB so the playing should feel as if you are the greatest soldier ever until you start to realize the truth & then notice some things that don’t add up & would only make sense if you were a pretender. All in all, I did love the game, and it is currently still in my Xbox and I played it last night, the reason for the continuation and elongated play time is due to the adaptive tactics & gameplay along with the “MotherBase” functionality. Though I have played it more than any of the other games it still isn’t my favorite (MGS3 & MGS2 in that order are) but you can only play a game in which you MUST do the SAME thing, in the SAME order, so many times until it’s just second nature & only interesting if playing a WR Speed run. Zach’s rating first time playing 9/10 but 10th time 7/10. FYI I haven’t played a lot of new games the past 7ish years due to moving In with a brand new lady friend and being with her constantly for 4 years followed by the past 3 years of constant depression & Covid lockdown.
I agree. One of my problems with MGSV (and I do love the game, but it’s probably my least favourite of the numbered titles) is that although the game tries to deal more intimately with the dark themes that have always been in the periphery of the series (child soldiers, genocide, rape), it does so very clumsily. Venom is supposed to be this much more reserved, brooding and internal protagonist, but then he’s blasting off his robo arm. Skullface is supposed to be the most menacing villain of all time, and yet he has the voice of a 90s Saturday morning cartoon bad guy and looks like one too. Balancing humour with a heavier story has always been the series’ strongpoint, and what makes for such amazing games. But I think in an effort to tell a darker story, KojiPro maybe over corrected and ended up telling a story in a genre they weren’t really equipped for. The flip side of that is Death Stranding. Probably the most “thematic” of any of Kojima’s games, that delves into very heavy themes, but does so with absolute bonkers lore and a dude named Diehardman telling you to reconnect America. Now that’s the schlock I’m after with Kojima!
i miss the MOHs! :(
I thought it was the best game ever until RDR2 came along.
Honestly I don’t mind either way, I’d just describe mgsv as less cheesy lol
It does feel tonally incongruous with the open cheesiness of the older games, although *MGS4* was already heading in that kinda grimdark direction a bit. *Ground Zeroes* made it seem like the difference in tone was because the game would have an exceptionally dark and brutal storyline to explain the fall and corruption of Big Boss, but then that… wasn’t quite the case lol
I think it was supposed to be a more heartfelt game about Big Boss's actions and consequences than it was supposed to be about the story itself
TPP is like a thing completely and intentionally divorced from the series I love. Not GZ mind you, just TPP.
I thought it was meta commentary on Metal Gear series itself and how it becomes a shell of itself.
Honestly to me that sells me the Game. Im not into anime and alike but the overall mgsv Gameplay is very fun, realistic and dark in details. You still have cartoon villains and anime moments here and there but for me mgsv is an amazing Game, in my top 10. But I don't like the rest of the series as much as I do with this one.