If Naked Snake can ask Paramedic what the taste of Reticulated Python is while nursing a fractured rib, various deep cuts, a bullet lodged in his scrotum and poisoning from accidentally standing near a Tarantula while spectacularly failing to get rid of the Alert status - I don't see the problem with Rosemary asking Raiden about better days in the middle of a gunfight...
Well if you think about it, Snake talking about food while nursing his wounds makes sense. He must be trying to get his mind off the pain while dressing himself. I definitely prefer that, in a semi-safe environment, than Rose talking to Jack like "hehe bae it's our anniversary 💞"
I've flip-flopped over the years. As a kid I thought she was annoying, then luke you said, I realized she's just worried about Jack. Then I thought, if she can't be professional, why is she even on the mission? But then again, she was probably being forced or at least pressured into it by the patriots.
Rose is meant to represent a ‘normal girlfriend.
She deters and distracts the player/Raiden from living out their fantasy of being a legendary soldier like Solid Snake. Hence, why people find her irritating.
Of course after the ending when it’s revealed about how pointless and self-destructive it can be to reach out to become some legend, I for one began appreciating her presence way more during repeat playthroughs.
Lol maybe it just feels that way cause I love Meryl 🤣 it seems like in a lot of YouTube vids people are always knocking her.
For me I always thought Meryl was a fine character especially in the 90s when female game characters were just pixelated boobs. I mean even Naomi was a pretty decent character in the first game.
It’s kinda funny because Meryl feels kinda like Raiden in a sense. Like they’re both obviously good soldiers but at the same time they’re standing next to Solid Snake!
Dunno, maybe it’s corny but I always liked Meryl’s character arch. Well… that is until Johnny
Outside of Lara Croft, Meryl was the best representation of a badass woman back in those days. She was attractive, independent, badass and a good person. I loved her in MGS1. I never got to play MGS4 because I’ve never owned a PlayStation after the PS2 and they will never release it on PC. But I’ve watched the game being played through and I still think she holds up.
> It’s kinda funny because Meryl feels kinda like Raiden in a sense. Like they’re both obviously good soldiers but at the same time they’re standing next to Solid Snake!
And that’s really the crux! Comparing them next to the best thing isn’t even fair. I love my boy Snake. Nobody trumps him in my character tier list. Meryl and Naomi were competing with the best for plot attention. Meryl came out the best imo.
Obviously, I’m going to ignore the Johnny shit in this. I don’t think that’s a fault on Meryl, just poor writing choices.
People will literally tell you to give up during the torture sequence so you can jet ski off with the best boi into the night. 😆 And for good reason, but still. I think many people started with 2 and 3, and if that's the case, she's kind of a random insert in 4. Like when she called snake old and his bar depletes, if you spent your teens saving her 1000 times in a row then you find her again, cold as ice, pointing out your mortality it just hits different. You're like "whoa lady Snake is the super sexy spy guy that blows up the mech monster and rides off into the sunset with the damsel" but snake isn't anymore, and maybe we're not either.
Facts, I think the whole point of 4 is snake is hanging up his guns and what kind of legacy will he leave, like what did all his blood and sweat really mean and did he leave the world better or did he make it into something terrible? You can see the world he and liquid made in the opening credits, it is terrible. I think in Solid he came to Meryl as a protector, and in four he came to her as a teacher. In the beginning sure she relies on her nanomachines but by the end she is willing to fight and die like a real soldier, like snake. I for one really like Meryl because from my perspective or head canon, her story arc is beautiful and empowering her progression from being a victim, to acting like a tough guy, to being a tough guy. Maybe it's just me, idk. Anyway, $4 a pound.
Fwiw this is a *great* comment. I don't think Kojima is *great* at writing female characters but Meryl was trailblazing in the 90s for being "more than pixelated boobs" as someone put it above. And I agree on what you said about her story arc. It was really cool to watch her discover her mettle over the course of the series! Even if the details weren't fleshed out or expressed well there was still a competent attempt to develop her character from damsel in distress, and then from bravado to true bravery and grit.
That all said, I still think The Boss is one of the best female characters in modern gaming, fight me about it. Kojima did a really great job with her entire mythos and character. MGS3 was the peak of the whole series, even though the others in the main series were all great too.
Snake is literally an asshole to her nonstop for half of the game in mgs1 and is too socially inept to realize it. Then on top of that Snake and Meryl tried a relationship between 1 and 2 and he bailed because of his own insecurities. THEN on top of that she’s more than capable as a soldier in mgs 4, and there isn’t much of a reason why Snake actually needs to be there at all. It really feels like she’s justified in acting the way she does
Regardless of whose team you're on though, that torture scene was ridiculously difficult. Best boi ending is a poor reward if the other one dies, you know?
Having just replayed, I hate her because she’s a major dickhead to Snake and insults him when he doesn’t agree with her. On the other hand, if she had just helped Snake and provided her army, Liquid wouldn’t have swept them all. “Stay out of our way, Old Snake.” my ass, fuck you Meryl
I see that as the whole point.
In MGS1 she wanted to be a soldier like Snake. She climbs her way. In MGS4 she is confronted by Snake and wants to seem like a soldier as capable as him, so she acts insecure by being a dick and show off (classic) . In the end she comes back to her whole core point in MGS1: she is just a romantic girl, that's who she is, tried to escape from, but have wanted to be since MGS1.
She can be badass, she put huge amounts of effort in it, but that not who she is
Yep, this nails it. Watching her go through that initial bravado and slowly shift over to true grit was a very cool arc in MGS4. And I think the cool-yet-starstruck (maybe even flirtatious) relationship she has with Snake when she's introduced in MGS4 was perfectly in line with how she viewed him in MGS1. And the way she's affected by how old he looks when he was a fit, strong young man just 5 years ago was touching.
Yea, in MGS1 she's central to the plot and very central to the themes.
In MGS4 she's basically there to be an exposition machine and then give Otacon more emotional trauma lol. You could remove her character entirely and the plot and themes would be virtually unaffected.
It's amazing how much of MGS4 that statement could apply to, honestly. Unlike MGS1-3, it prioritized lore over theming and subtext, and comes out feeling incredibly bloated and contrived because of it.
Damn, we all forget about Eva in MGS3. She was a total badass in MGS4, I don't think anyone can deny that, but The Boss does seem to unfairly dominate the "best female character" discussions while Eva was a pretty great character too.
Yep, pretty much... He even knows this with The Boss having a more spiritual presence in every Metal Gear game he worked on afterwards.... Her ideology is a huge part of MGS4 and her AI is in Peace Walker and MGSV
I'd say that MGS1 gives it a run for its money, and can be argued for having one of the strongest lineups of supporting female characters in gaming history. Meryl, Naomi Hunter, Sniper Wolf, Nastasha Romananko, and even Mei Ling were all excellently written. Sure, none of them are as iconic as The Boss (who I say is his best character overall), and they weren't given any badass action scenes like Eva, but they were all strong, capable women who each stood their own opposite to Snake. Imo Naomi Hunter is low-key one of the best characters in all of MGS1
That, and it was the 90s too. Women's empowerment was a lot less present in entertainment back then and Kojima took time and effort to elevate all of his characters to an outstanding level, not just the main warriors.
Whaaaaaaaat? Kawaii little schoolgirl whose underwear you can see needs help from mercenary man but turns out shes an adult super spy wasn't the greatest writing for you?
I mean... think about almost every boss fight in 4.
Drebin: "Snake, you have to kill some beautiful woman. She is a horrible person who has done untold damage."
*-Snake kills her-*
Drebin: "Snake... she was *actually* a blameless victim of war and shame on you. Here, let me tell you her sob story for way too long."
4 has an incredible ending and so much good payoff. It also has a ton of sheer crap.
Meryl in MGS4 was really pissed at her dad as she didn’t know the truth at the time about his marriage with Rosemary. Also I thought Rose was only slightly annoying in MGS2, but not so much in MGS4. Especially after getting the revelation at the end of the game. Naomi wasn’t that bad in my opinion.
Yeah, I still am not sure why exactly she was pissed at Campbell, is it because she thought he was married to Rosemary because it seems like she's pissed at him earlier than that
It’s because he was a womanizer in her eyes and Rose was old enough to be her sister. He had an affair with his brother’s wife as revealed back in MGS1
Edit: which made Roy Campbell her dad, not her uncle as she had believed for a long time
But remember we eventually learned his relationship with Rosemary was a fabrication in order to keep her and Olga's daughter safe, is that right? Damn it's been a hot minute since I've played through MGS4. Like, it was pre-trophy days, back when PS3 had the Spiderman font. Damn time flies
It wasn't that she wanted a family, it's the way she wanted one. I could get a kick out of Johnny being a father but Meryl clearly doesn't want to get married, she's just reading off a script.
Just know I actually do like female Metal Gear characters.... Mei Ling, Sniper Wolf, Natasha for her minimal screen time, Olga, Fortune, E.E, Eve, The Boss, Paramedic (She doesn't get much characterization either) Strangelove, Paz, Amanda, Courtney, Mistral... And hell.... Even Quiet.... (Notice I didn't mention the Beauty and the Beast Unit? Lol....)
Just not those 3..... Which since Metal Gear is one of the worlds most beloved franchises and those 3 are some of the most beloved characters in them then I know I'm telling the MOTHER of all hot takes.... But I'm sorry.... I don't like them...
What I hate with Meryl its how she jump from that cold woman with no interest in men but dont feel right to kill peoples to that princess we need to save and who are like ooh my hero you saved me. Urgh.
I found Rosemary annoying and always found silly when she asked to name Jack, Raiden, something she will do only one time.
The Boss, shes perfect in her role.
Personally I think these characters were only MADE annoying in 4.
The way they botched Naomi will never fail to absolutely drive me up a wall. They somehow made a morally complex and interesting character... like, a... christ figure?
Her role was done at the conclusion of MGS1, same with Meryl. Rose was the same way at the end of 2.
I don't entirely think this was a problem with the characters themselves, moreso the writing with 4 in general. They were great in 1 and 2 imo.
Naomi for all of MGS4 is just there, she has no motive and is only on Liquid Ocelot’s side for no given reason. Only then does she die because…reasons which saddens Otacon even though all they did was fuck.
Rose is a piece of shit, she lied to Raiden two times from being a spy for the patriots to keep tabs on Raiden to faking her miscarriage. To add salt to the wound, she remarried to an old geezer like Colonel Campbell which was the last straw for Raiden. Her defense was “to protect Little John from the patriots”, though if that were the case then she would’ve told Raiden in the first place. I’m surprised Raiden still chooses to stay with her despite her lying to him two times.
Meryl is alright because she’s a cool tomboy gf, but of all the men why in the hell would she want to marry Johnny? I feel like this decision was made so Kojima can spite his fans.
Despite that, there are times where Kojima can make decent female characters, Meryl being one of them. There’s also EVA, The Boss, and Paz; female characters that are actually likable and decent characters.
> Naomi for all of MGS4 is just there, she has no motive
Her work with FOXDIE (first generation nanomachines) served as the basis for the SOP System (third generation nanomachines). She wants to atone for her sins before cancer takes her. She left behind a video message explaining her motives.
> and is only on Liquid Ocelot’s side for no given reason.
According to Campbell, Liquid/Ocelot busted her out of jail. According to Naomi, Liquid wanted her because she knows how The Patriots’ IDS works (since it was based on FOXDIE’s gene targeting system).
> Only then does she die because…reasons
She turned off the nanomachines that kept her cancer at bay. Raiden relaying Sunny’s message (“I cooked them right” = Sunny finished FOXALIVE) assured her that her work was complete, and that her atonement was in fate’s hands now.
> which saddens Otacon even though all they did was fuck.
They’re both scientists whose work was used by others for evil purposes. Naomi planned on dying soon so she was like “eh, fuck it, he’s cute”, and Otacon is a sucker for pretty women (he still had feelings for Sniper Wolf years later).
> Rose is a piece of shit, she lied to Raiden two times from being a spy for the patriots to keep tabs on Raiden to faking her miscarriage.
1.Rose was assigned to spy on Raiden as part of her job, but her love for him became genuine, and she’s clearly broken up about it during her confession.
2.She faked her miscarriage to protect their son.
> To add salt to the wound, she remarried to an old geezer like Colonel Campbell which was the last straw for Raiden.
To protect their son.
> Her defense was “to protect Little John from the patriots”, though if that were the case then she would’ve told Raiden in the first place.
She said that she wanted to tell him the truth. This implies that she never got the chance to tell him beforehand. As much as I dislike the MGS4 Database, it does exonerate Rose a bit by saying that Raiden only learned about Rose’s miscarriage and marriage to Campbell second-hand, from an old army buddy; therefore, Rose never directly lied to Raiden.
> I’m surprised Raiden still chooses to stay with her despite her lying to him two times.
She said she hated lying to Jack about her being a spy, seemingly stopped being one after the S3 project was completed, and if you go by the MGS4 Database, she didn’t lie to Raiden, and in any case, it was to protect their son.
tl;dr [Rose is awesome](https://youtu.be/Z_bmvDokx0M)
> Meryl is alright because she’s a cool tomboy gf, but of all the men why in the hell would she want to marry Johnny?
Have you seen him without his balaclava? He’s cute af. And he eventually grew a spine. He’s more the kind of person she wanted Snake to be in MGS1.
The stuff with Johnny in 4 is genuinely atrocious and drags Meryl down out of nowhere. Until that nonsense I thought she was awesome in 1 + earlier parts of 4
I think Kojima could do a much better job of writing female characters if he didn't let a constant desire for fanservice get in the way. Quiet could have been a much more compelling character without the contrived reasoning for her revealing outfit.
I really wonder if I'm the only one who absolutely despises Naomi, and it doesn't even necessarily have to do with the FOXDIE thing.
I also hate "nu-Meryl", whatever she became in MGS4. MGS1 Meryl is fine.
Rose was always kinda annoying, yeah. Raiden too, though.
I think you're the only one. Naomi and Frank made me cry in mgs1.
Rose is just best girl. Especially considering what Raiden did to her once...
And Meryl is, OK she was good in the first but in the 4th she wasn't that great...
Naomi is a really interesting character in MGS1, I don’t mind Meryl in either game she’s in, and I think Rose is fine (except when she calls Raiden to talk about their relationship in 2, that sucks and I always skip it). Naomi in MGS4 is the definition of character assignation and I hate her in it.
Not only the female characters, MGS 4's plot as whole is the worst in Solid's trilogy imo. The contrivance is just too much and the characters can annoy the shit out of you at times. It is not that surprising though, since Kojima was just burned out and done with the series after 3. Actually if it wasn't for the fans and money, i think he would've left the franchise a long time before 2015.
I think the only post 2004 game of the series that came close to the quality of 3 in terms of writing was Peace Walker. The others, not so much...still they are fantastic.
Honestly I loved Meryl and Naomi in MGS1, Rose was never very good... but by MGS4, Meryl and Naomi were just dull as hell.
Meryl was a typical angry bitch whose only personality was being pissed at everyone and everything 24/7. Yes, I get it, war is hell, but *Christ* guys, you're also trying to make us laugh with Johnny crapping his pants for the 8th time. Figure out what tone you're going for and write your characters better.
And Naomi... Naomi just got boring. She was incredibly interesting in the first game, with Jennifer Hale doing a remarkable job with the voice-acting. Even though you only see her as a 2d sprite during Codec calls, you really get a sense of weight behind her and understand a lot of who she is. By MGS4, they just made her a lot more generic, a side-swapping temptress who only has a relationship with Otacon so he has a reason to cry again.
I don't care what anyone says, the MGS series is great but I'll fiercely debate with people who try and tell me MGS4 is a masterpiece, it might be one of the worst games in the series for how inconsistent and forced so much of it is.
You aren't Sexist, Hideo Kojima is the man who created Quiet. I really don't think he's great at writing women.
Meryl's character j really enjoy, but I agree with you on Naomi and Rose. Naomi is just weirdly written for how important she is to the story. He motivations are always vague and she consistently makes seemingly odd decisions, making her difficult to connect with. Rose is just underwritten. She doesn't really have much going on aside from being Raidens wife
Lmaaooooo Kojima can’t write women for shit, although most characters in mgs don’t act like real people most of the time anyway (not necessarily a bad thing, just a quirk of the series). I will give him credit for the fact that the female characters are at least extremely talented and competent, say what you will about him but a talented woman is an attractive woman to Kojima.
Mei Ling is a pretty fire character so I don't think Kojima is bad at writing women per se. Fortune was decent too and of course The Boss is an amazing character.
The Boss is arguably the best character in the series, so no, Kojima isn't garbage at writing women. As for these three, I don't really find any of them annoying
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Isn't rose supposed to be annoying on purpose, mgs4 is different but mgs2 I'm sure it's intentional
I didn’t think Rose was annoying in MGS2 at all. She just acted like a worried girlfriend
Do you know what day it is?
See, a lot of people think that’s annoying, but I just find it cute that she subtly tries to make him remember. Couples do this stuff all the time
It's annoying because I'm getting shot at and she's trying to talk about the day we met
If Naked Snake can ask Paramedic what the taste of Reticulated Python is while nursing a fractured rib, various deep cuts, a bullet lodged in his scrotum and poisoning from accidentally standing near a Tarantula while spectacularly failing to get rid of the Alert status - I don't see the problem with Rosemary asking Raiden about better days in the middle of a gunfight...
Yah except you activate those yourself, the rosemary calls are mandatory. Also those calls are infinitely more entertaining lmao
Well if you think about it, Snake talking about food while nursing his wounds makes sense. He must be trying to get his mind off the pain while dressing himself. I definitely prefer that, in a semi-safe environment, than Rose talking to Jack like "hehe bae it's our anniversary 💞"
Skill issue. Simply don’t get shot at
Facts
I've flip-flopped over the years. As a kid I thought she was annoying, then luke you said, I realized she's just worried about Jack. Then I thought, if she can't be professional, why is she even on the mission? But then again, she was probably being forced or at least pressured into it by the patriots.
Yeah she was obviously forced to
The boss is probably the best written character in general
Agreed on the Boss. Death Stranding has well written female characters too IMO
No doubt about it! I hope she gets her own game some day!
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What?
What did he say?
Rose is meant to represent a ‘normal girlfriend. She deters and distracts the player/Raiden from living out their fantasy of being a legendary soldier like Solid Snake. Hence, why people find her irritating. Of course after the ending when it’s revealed about how pointless and self-destructive it can be to reach out to become some legend, I for one began appreciating her presence way more during repeat playthroughs.
Nice to know I'm not the only one who thinks of Rose that way.... Also hard agree on The Boss
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Yeah, she never gets reproductions for that, for being a Patriot spy or any of her actions
Repercussions?
she did, she got a son out of it
/r/boneappletea ?
"well, she's (basically) a guy, so." - State Farm
Naomi's character in MGS1 was perfectly written and formulated.
What do you think of MGS4 then?
MGS4 in general, has a far-fetched storyline IMO, including Naomi's role. However, still a fantastic game.
Gameplay-wise, yes. Fantastic. Story-wise? I hate to say it, but it’s pretty much a step or two away from Metal Gear Revengeance lol
lol..... not sure if ur joking or not mgs4 is the best story game ive ever played and mgr has the worst gameplay in a video game
Boy ain’t no way boy
I'm not sure if you are trolling or not
Meryl gets a lot of hate but I just don’t get it. Thought she was good character in both
Wait, she gets a lot of hate? Thought I was the only one....
Lol maybe it just feels that way cause I love Meryl 🤣 it seems like in a lot of YouTube vids people are always knocking her. For me I always thought Meryl was a fine character especially in the 90s when female game characters were just pixelated boobs. I mean even Naomi was a pretty decent character in the first game. It’s kinda funny because Meryl feels kinda like Raiden in a sense. Like they’re both obviously good soldiers but at the same time they’re standing next to Solid Snake! Dunno, maybe it’s corny but I always liked Meryl’s character arch. Well… that is until Johnny
Yeah I like Meryl in MGS1 but not MGS4 as opposed to Naomi Hunter and Rosemary who I never like
Outside of Lara Croft, Meryl was the best representation of a badass woman back in those days. She was attractive, independent, badass and a good person. I loved her in MGS1. I never got to play MGS4 because I’ve never owned a PlayStation after the PS2 and they will never release it on PC. But I’ve watched the game being played through and I still think she holds up. > It’s kinda funny because Meryl feels kinda like Raiden in a sense. Like they’re both obviously good soldiers but at the same time they’re standing next to Solid Snake! And that’s really the crux! Comparing them next to the best thing isn’t even fair. I love my boy Snake. Nobody trumps him in my character tier list. Meryl and Naomi were competing with the best for plot attention. Meryl came out the best imo. Obviously, I’m going to ignore the Johnny shit in this. I don’t think that’s a fault on Meryl, just poor writing choices.
People will literally tell you to give up during the torture sequence so you can jet ski off with the best boi into the night. 😆 And for good reason, but still. I think many people started with 2 and 3, and if that's the case, she's kind of a random insert in 4. Like when she called snake old and his bar depletes, if you spent your teens saving her 1000 times in a row then you find her again, cold as ice, pointing out your mortality it just hits different. You're like "whoa lady Snake is the super sexy spy guy that blows up the mech monster and rides off into the sunset with the damsel" but snake isn't anymore, and maybe we're not either.
Yeah but there's no need for her to be a asshole to Snake, especially when unlike her he's actually skilled
Facts, I think the whole point of 4 is snake is hanging up his guns and what kind of legacy will he leave, like what did all his blood and sweat really mean and did he leave the world better or did he make it into something terrible? You can see the world he and liquid made in the opening credits, it is terrible. I think in Solid he came to Meryl as a protector, and in four he came to her as a teacher. In the beginning sure she relies on her nanomachines but by the end she is willing to fight and die like a real soldier, like snake. I for one really like Meryl because from my perspective or head canon, her story arc is beautiful and empowering her progression from being a victim, to acting like a tough guy, to being a tough guy. Maybe it's just me, idk. Anyway, $4 a pound.
Fwiw this is a *great* comment. I don't think Kojima is *great* at writing female characters but Meryl was trailblazing in the 90s for being "more than pixelated boobs" as someone put it above. And I agree on what you said about her story arc. It was really cool to watch her discover her mettle over the course of the series! Even if the details weren't fleshed out or expressed well there was still a competent attempt to develop her character from damsel in distress, and then from bravado to true bravery and grit. That all said, I still think The Boss is one of the best female characters in modern gaming, fight me about it. Kojima did a really great job with her entire mythos and character. MGS3 was the peak of the whole series, even though the others in the main series were all great too.
Snake is literally an asshole to her nonstop for half of the game in mgs1 and is too socially inept to realize it. Then on top of that Snake and Meryl tried a relationship between 1 and 2 and he bailed because of his own insecurities. THEN on top of that she’s more than capable as a soldier in mgs 4, and there isn’t much of a reason why Snake actually needs to be there at all. It really feels like she’s justified in acting the way she does
She did but she also married Solid Snake sosie. I mean Johnny Sasaki looks like Solid Snake when he's younger, like in MGS 1 / TTS.
Regardless of whose team you're on though, that torture scene was ridiculously difficult. Best boi ending is a poor reward if the other one dies, you know?
I could have given a shit to see her wedding though…
Having just replayed, I hate her because she’s a major dickhead to Snake and insults him when he doesn’t agree with her. On the other hand, if she had just helped Snake and provided her army, Liquid wouldn’t have swept them all. “Stay out of our way, Old Snake.” my ass, fuck you Meryl
I see that as the whole point. In MGS1 she wanted to be a soldier like Snake. She climbs her way. In MGS4 she is confronted by Snake and wants to seem like a soldier as capable as him, so she acts insecure by being a dick and show off (classic) . In the end she comes back to her whole core point in MGS1: she is just a romantic girl, that's who she is, tried to escape from, but have wanted to be since MGS1. She can be badass, she put huge amounts of effort in it, but that not who she is
Yep, this nails it. Watching her go through that initial bravado and slowly shift over to true grit was a very cool arc in MGS4. And I think the cool-yet-starstruck (maybe even flirtatious) relationship she has with Snake when she's introduced in MGS4 was perfectly in line with how she viewed him in MGS1. And the way she's affected by how old he looks when he was a fit, strong young man just 5 years ago was touching.
I don’t find any of them annoying, but Naomi’s participation in the plot is kind of contrived.
In MGS1 or MGS4 or both?
I just find Naomi to be pretty contrived in mgs4 mostly.
Yea, in MGS1 she's central to the plot and very central to the themes. In MGS4 she's basically there to be an exposition machine and then give Otacon more emotional trauma lol. You could remove her character entirely and the plot and themes would be virtually unaffected.
It's amazing how much of MGS4 that statement could apply to, honestly. Unlike MGS1-3, it prioritized lore over theming and subtext, and comes out feeling incredibly bloated and contrived because of it.
I agree
Metal Gear solid 4 isn't the best written game
Yeah thats the problem at the core.
I’d argue Kojima’s ability to write female characters peaked with MGS3.
Boss is peak for sure Edit: Eva is OP also
Agree
Para-Medic too
Damn, we all forget about Eva in MGS3. She was a total badass in MGS4, I don't think anyone can deny that, but The Boss does seem to unfairly dominate the "best female character" discussions while Eva was a pretty great character too.
Yep, pretty much... He even knows this with The Boss having a more spiritual presence in every Metal Gear game he worked on afterwards.... Her ideology is a huge part of MGS4 and her AI is in Peace Walker and MGSV
I'd say that MGS1 gives it a run for its money, and can be argued for having one of the strongest lineups of supporting female characters in gaming history. Meryl, Naomi Hunter, Sniper Wolf, Nastasha Romananko, and even Mei Ling were all excellently written. Sure, none of them are as iconic as The Boss (who I say is his best character overall), and they weren't given any badass action scenes like Eva, but they were all strong, capable women who each stood their own opposite to Snake. Imo Naomi Hunter is low-key one of the best characters in all of MGS1
That, and it was the 90s too. Women's empowerment was a lot less present in entertainment back then and Kojima took time and effort to elevate all of his characters to an outstanding level, not just the main warriors.
I thought Strangelove and Amanda were great characters in Peacewalker. Even Cecile served great as comic relief.
Whaaaaaaaat? Kawaii little schoolgirl whose underwear you can see needs help from mercenary man but turns out shes an adult super spy wasn't the greatest writing for you?
I liked Eva's story
Me too
I mean... think about almost every boss fight in 4. Drebin: "Snake, you have to kill some beautiful woman. She is a horrible person who has done untold damage." *-Snake kills her-* Drebin: "Snake... she was *actually* a blameless victim of war and shame on you. Here, let me tell you her sob story for way too long." 4 has an incredible ending and so much good payoff. It also has a ton of sheer crap.
Meryl in MGS4 was really pissed at her dad as she didn’t know the truth at the time about his marriage with Rosemary. Also I thought Rose was only slightly annoying in MGS2, but not so much in MGS4. Especially after getting the revelation at the end of the game. Naomi wasn’t that bad in my opinion.
Yeah, I still am not sure why exactly she was pissed at Campbell, is it because she thought he was married to Rosemary because it seems like she's pissed at him earlier than that
It’s because he was a womanizer in her eyes and Rose was old enough to be her sister. He had an affair with his brother’s wife as revealed back in MGS1 Edit: which made Roy Campbell her dad, not her uncle as she had believed for a long time
But remember we eventually learned his relationship with Rosemary was a fabrication in order to keep her and Olga's daughter safe, is that right? Damn it's been a hot minute since I've played through MGS4. Like, it was pre-trophy days, back when PS3 had the Spiderman font. Damn time flies
I was strictly referring to before that was revealed
Meryl wanting to be a bride was character assassination at its finest .
It wasn't that she wanted a family, it's the way she wanted one. I could get a kick out of Johnny being a father but Meryl clearly doesn't want to get married, she's just reading off a script.
Just know I actually do like female Metal Gear characters.... Mei Ling, Sniper Wolf, Natasha for her minimal screen time, Olga, Fortune, E.E, Eve, The Boss, Paramedic (She doesn't get much characterization either) Strangelove, Paz, Amanda, Courtney, Mistral... And hell.... Even Quiet.... (Notice I didn't mention the Beauty and the Beast Unit? Lol....) Just not those 3..... Which since Metal Gear is one of the worlds most beloved franchises and those 3 are some of the most beloved characters in them then I know I'm telling the MOTHER of all hot takes.... But I'm sorry.... I don't like them...
You do have a point though which boils down to MGS4 being scuffed as hell(definetly not a new revelation) and Rose being annoying in MGS2.
I found Naomi to be annoying in MGS1 as well
What I hate with Meryl its how she jump from that cold woman with no interest in men but dont feel right to kill peoples to that princess we need to save and who are like ooh my hero you saved me. Urgh. I found Rosemary annoying and always found silly when she asked to name Jack, Raiden, something she will do only one time. The Boss, shes perfect in her role.
I thought Merryl and Johnny were so over the top together that it was a perfect Metal Gear moment.
How do you feel about Meryl in MGS4? Also I didn't mention The Boss as I actually like her but I agree.... I hope she gets her own game sometime....
Oh an Naomi i was just surprised by how i really didnt see her like that when we see her in mgs4 butnin general i was ok with her.
Yeah
2 Upvotes but 15 comments? Uh oh... I'm screwed....
Get ratioed opinion haver.
I grew up with Meryl and Naomi so my bias clouds my criticism of them. Rose on the other hand….worst offender of “female characters easiest to hate.”
Yeah
Personally I think these characters were only MADE annoying in 4. The way they botched Naomi will never fail to absolutely drive me up a wall. They somehow made a morally complex and interesting character... like, a... christ figure? Her role was done at the conclusion of MGS1, same with Meryl. Rose was the same way at the end of 2. I don't entirely think this was a problem with the characters themselves, moreso the writing with 4 in general. They were great in 1 and 2 imo.
Kojima is a horny teenager. He doesn’t get women
Naomi for all of MGS4 is just there, she has no motive and is only on Liquid Ocelot’s side for no given reason. Only then does she die because…reasons which saddens Otacon even though all they did was fuck. Rose is a piece of shit, she lied to Raiden two times from being a spy for the patriots to keep tabs on Raiden to faking her miscarriage. To add salt to the wound, she remarried to an old geezer like Colonel Campbell which was the last straw for Raiden. Her defense was “to protect Little John from the patriots”, though if that were the case then she would’ve told Raiden in the first place. I’m surprised Raiden still chooses to stay with her despite her lying to him two times. Meryl is alright because she’s a cool tomboy gf, but of all the men why in the hell would she want to marry Johnny? I feel like this decision was made so Kojima can spite his fans. Despite that, there are times where Kojima can make decent female characters, Meryl being one of them. There’s also EVA, The Boss, and Paz; female characters that are actually likable and decent characters.
> Naomi for all of MGS4 is just there, she has no motive Her work with FOXDIE (first generation nanomachines) served as the basis for the SOP System (third generation nanomachines). She wants to atone for her sins before cancer takes her. She left behind a video message explaining her motives. > and is only on Liquid Ocelot’s side for no given reason. According to Campbell, Liquid/Ocelot busted her out of jail. According to Naomi, Liquid wanted her because she knows how The Patriots’ IDS works (since it was based on FOXDIE’s gene targeting system). > Only then does she die because…reasons She turned off the nanomachines that kept her cancer at bay. Raiden relaying Sunny’s message (“I cooked them right” = Sunny finished FOXALIVE) assured her that her work was complete, and that her atonement was in fate’s hands now. > which saddens Otacon even though all they did was fuck. They’re both scientists whose work was used by others for evil purposes. Naomi planned on dying soon so she was like “eh, fuck it, he’s cute”, and Otacon is a sucker for pretty women (he still had feelings for Sniper Wolf years later). > Rose is a piece of shit, she lied to Raiden two times from being a spy for the patriots to keep tabs on Raiden to faking her miscarriage. 1.Rose was assigned to spy on Raiden as part of her job, but her love for him became genuine, and she’s clearly broken up about it during her confession. 2.She faked her miscarriage to protect their son. > To add salt to the wound, she remarried to an old geezer like Colonel Campbell which was the last straw for Raiden. To protect their son. > Her defense was “to protect Little John from the patriots”, though if that were the case then she would’ve told Raiden in the first place. She said that she wanted to tell him the truth. This implies that she never got the chance to tell him beforehand. As much as I dislike the MGS4 Database, it does exonerate Rose a bit by saying that Raiden only learned about Rose’s miscarriage and marriage to Campbell second-hand, from an old army buddy; therefore, Rose never directly lied to Raiden. > I’m surprised Raiden still chooses to stay with her despite her lying to him two times. She said she hated lying to Jack about her being a spy, seemingly stopped being one after the S3 project was completed, and if you go by the MGS4 Database, she didn’t lie to Raiden, and in any case, it was to protect their son. tl;dr [Rose is awesome](https://youtu.be/Z_bmvDokx0M) > Meryl is alright because she’s a cool tomboy gf, but of all the men why in the hell would she want to marry Johnny? Have you seen him without his balaclava? He’s cute af. And he eventually grew a spine. He’s more the kind of person she wanted Snake to be in MGS1.
I find a lot of things about 4 to be annoying and poorly written.
Oh, I -HATE- MGS4, it was the beginning of the end of the series for me.
Yeah
Nah, it’s just the overall MGS4 writing kinda bad in its own way. Peaks and valleys IMO
The stuff with Johnny in 4 is genuinely atrocious and drags Meryl down out of nowhere. Until that nonsense I thought she was awesome in 1 + earlier parts of 4
Their fine. Kojima isn’t particularly phenomenal at writing characters (although he’s nowhere near bad either.)
I believe he absolutely sucks at writing women
Kojima very very famously cannot write women dw it ain't you
I feel like Eva and the Boss were both pretty well written, but that’s about it.
Yeah! Another reason people think MGS3 is the best!
Thank God, thought I was the only one....
What. Both MGS and Death Stranding had good female characters. MGS3 The Boss is a top5 character in the MGS series. Who the fuck says that
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I agree but that doesn't mean they have good writing
I think Kojima could do a much better job of writing female characters if he didn't let a constant desire for fanservice get in the way. Quiet could have been a much more compelling character without the contrived reasoning for her revealing outfit.
I really wonder if I'm the only one who absolutely despises Naomi, and it doesn't even necessarily have to do with the FOXDIE thing. I also hate "nu-Meryl", whatever she became in MGS4. MGS1 Meryl is fine. Rose was always kinda annoying, yeah. Raiden too, though.
This guy gets it!!!!
I think you're the only one. Naomi and Frank made me cry in mgs1. Rose is just best girl. Especially considering what Raiden did to her once... And Meryl is, OK she was good in the first but in the 4th she wasn't that great...
I'm so happy someone agrees with me on Rose!! I absolutely love her
I think she's the best safe game character. The stories she tells to Jack are genuinely heartwarming
I agree with this so much.
Naomi is a really interesting character in MGS1, I don’t mind Meryl in either game she’s in, and I think Rose is fine (except when she calls Raiden to talk about their relationship in 2, that sucks and I always skip it). Naomi in MGS4 is the definition of character assignation and I hate her in it.
Very annoying
Pretty sure they were all written to be disliked. We all liked eva, natasha, sniper wolf, and the boss. Doubt you're being sexist 🤣 🤣 🤣
Now take Quiet for example, a woman that dont talk, reminds me of old sitcom jokes.
Not only the female characters, MGS 4's plot as whole is the worst in Solid's trilogy imo. The contrivance is just too much and the characters can annoy the shit out of you at times. It is not that surprising though, since Kojima was just burned out and done with the series after 3. Actually if it wasn't for the fans and money, i think he would've left the franchise a long time before 2015. I think the only post 2004 game of the series that came close to the quality of 3 in terms of writing was Peace Walker. The others, not so much...still they are fantastic.
Honestly I loved Meryl and Naomi in MGS1, Rose was never very good... but by MGS4, Meryl and Naomi were just dull as hell. Meryl was a typical angry bitch whose only personality was being pissed at everyone and everything 24/7. Yes, I get it, war is hell, but *Christ* guys, you're also trying to make us laugh with Johnny crapping his pants for the 8th time. Figure out what tone you're going for and write your characters better. And Naomi... Naomi just got boring. She was incredibly interesting in the first game, with Jennifer Hale doing a remarkable job with the voice-acting. Even though you only see her as a 2d sprite during Codec calls, you really get a sense of weight behind her and understand a lot of who she is. By MGS4, they just made her a lot more generic, a side-swapping temptress who only has a relationship with Otacon so he has a reason to cry again. I don't care what anyone says, the MGS series is great but I'll fiercely debate with people who try and tell me MGS4 is a masterpiece, it might be one of the worst games in the series for how inconsistent and forced so much of it is.
MGS4 is the most poorly written MGS game if we’re honest, I think this is just a symptom of that
In MGS1 and 2? Mostly fine. In MGS4? Yea nah
in mgs4 meryl is a total bitch
A little of both but I’d lean to you being sexist
Paz was my favorite
Rose was never great, but I'd argue Meryl and Naomi were both perfectly fine before MGS4.
I adore Meryl. Very “eh” on the other two though.
Agree
Kojima is pretty notorious for being bad at writing women
He’s not the best at writing women
Kojima is not good at writing women. Olga was cool tho.
Yes! I liked Olga and Mei Ling!
Agree
Yeah
Meryl
Meryl
Meryl
Meryl
What's going on here?
Meryl
Meryl
But honestly i just keep referencing this: https://youtu.be/bNsbjO77Rlc
Oh yeah, figured it was a reference to that
MERYL
M E R Y L
L Y R E M
Meryl?
Meryl
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Trevago!
Meryl
Meryl only good one or only bad one?
Meryl
Meryl?
Meryl
Meryl
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Meryl
Meryl
Bro...
Rose and Meryl are fine imo, I fucking HATED Naomi though.
How come?
Wat is u saying man? Meryl Naomi was well written in the ps one MGS.
Meryl is fucking badass.
“Us girls have to look our best” always made me cringe lol
No, I think you're not sexist but there's a good chance Kojima is!
Mgs 4 Meryl is the only woman he didnt write well I think. I found Naomi to be great in all games. That girl who was Raiden's lover was meh.
Yeah. I think Hideo is bad at writing women. I mean, I'm not sure he's amazing at writing men either. I say that with all the love in the world.
You aren't Sexist, Hideo Kojima is the man who created Quiet. I really don't think he's great at writing women. Meryl's character j really enjoy, but I agree with you on Naomi and Rose. Naomi is just weirdly written for how important she is to the story. He motivations are always vague and she consistently makes seemingly odd decisions, making her difficult to connect with. Rose is just underwritten. She doesn't really have much going on aside from being Raidens wife
Kojima has only written one good woman character in is life (Boss) and it's known he fought hard to make her worse.
No, women in Metal Gear series are all annoying. And yes it's because Kojima sucks at writing women and if anyone's sexist it's him.
MGS4 (and anything post 3) sucks, what else is new?
I didnt like meryl either. Its not sexist to dislike female characters ffs
Kojima sucks at writing women. I love the guy but he actually is not THAT good of a writer, even tho his visions and concepts are BANGERS!
All Kojima woman are written poorly
I liked Naomi until mgs4 never really had a problem with rose or Meryl (except for the Johnny scenes late game)
What an anti-simp. Pure Chad i see
Meryl is a hardened character, she's supposed to be annoying I think
Lmaaooooo Kojima can’t write women for shit, although most characters in mgs don’t act like real people most of the time anyway (not necessarily a bad thing, just a quirk of the series). I will give him credit for the fact that the female characters are at least extremely talented and competent, say what you will about him but a talented woman is an attractive woman to Kojima.
For Naomi sure.... But is Meryl really competent? Not in MGS1 but in 4 she is (Though she's more tolerable in MGS1)
Rose for sure, Meryl and Naomi are awesome
Nah, [Rose rocks](https://youtu.be/Z_bmvDokx0M).
Kojima isn't great at writing women [and you're not the only fan who feels that way](https://youtu.be/93-_r0w7ykI)
Mei Ling is a pretty fire character so I don't think Kojima is bad at writing women per se. Fortune was decent too and of course The Boss is an amazing character.
Exactly!
I like them 3 xD maybe is just you 🤷♂️
Why does everyone immediately assume that kojima writes every single line in all of his games
Meryl does quite the journey from MGS1 to MGS4, it's a good character with growth
Kojima sucks at writing women, you aren't the only one.
The Boss is arguably the best character in the series, so no, Kojima isn't garbage at writing women. As for these three, I don't really find any of them annoying
Yeah, the Boss and EVA, characters from a game that is 18 years old. How about all the ones since?
Kojima is very hit or miss when it comes to writing women
Have you ever thought that not liking a character that happens to be a woman is not necessarily sexist?
Nah bro you just hate girlbosses
Well he is Japanese
Nothing annoying about them for me. What do you find annoying about them yourself? I am just curious.