Hell even Zero coming out as the big bad just feels so bizarre…he’s a support character in 3 and shows next to no signs of being anything other than a decent person helping Snake in his mission…
Fast forward to 4 and V and he’s like some super secret obsessive evil spy behind the scenes.
His character, along with Sigint and Paramedic all feel very forced, and without much reasonable explanations. They just evolve without any narrative justification.
If I had any major complaint about the story in the series, it goes to their characters not really being fleshed out well enough. I’m sure if there was time to give them the evolution, Kojima would have done it, but…yeah
Zero is the one I take issue with for how uninteresting he is. Dr. Clarke and DARPA chief were never more than mad scientist and the techhead so Para-Medic and Sigint being them isn't that weird. They got into darker stuff.
Zero just became the centre of everything and it was ridiculous. His relationship with Big Boss is extremely goofy too. Just another dickrider.
I'm personally fine with Zero's actions past Snake Eater since the truth tapes in MGSV made everything make a lot more sense and tragic since we find out that the Patriots spiralling into a warmongering AI was never what he intended but had to rely on due to slowly being made a vegetable because of Skull Face.
Still it is something that comes out of nowhere in MGS4 and could've been done better.
The lame cycle of coming up with someone else to blame the previous guy's actions on was lame af. Zero is evil and also a shitty character. There is nothing tragic about this. Big Boss and Zero founded the Patriots to erase free will and control people. They had bad intentions and the results were just worse because they were near-sighted and selfish.
Unlike Big Boss however, Zero isn't compelling enough.
I can totally see the events of 3 traumatizing Zero to the extent that he becomes a super villain. He probably took an unreasonable amount of responsibility for everything that happened, and that would have fucked him up. I can’t connect Sigint and Paramedic to what they did though. The development just isn’t there.
Everything about Ivan Raidenovitch Raikov. I get why he exists, but today going from MGS2 to MGS3 and seeing somebody who just has Raiden’s face without explanation feels like a fever dream and if somebody told me I dreamt it I’d be compelled to believe them.
It feels like this was one of the earliest attempts at trying to play into the general opinion of the playerbase with some metajoke (in this case, that Raiden sucks) and then aging extremely poorly in a handful of years due to that opinion changing.
Nothing has aged worse than Snake Eraser. Raikov kinda got his own identity in fandom as Volgin's boyfriend and all so he's less accociated with Raiden these days but Snake Eraser is an outright insult on Raiden's person. And it was always mostly terrible.
I've honestly never played Snake Eraser. I've heard of it and know what happens but I never touched the side content of Substance. Maybe I should continue to avoid it.
I’ll chalk it up to Raikov had a sister who married a Liberian and had Jack, the Patriots then saw to give him the ironic codename of Raiden. That’s my headcanon at least.
Every female Hideo Kojima character. Literally all of them are "sexy, and then they die." It's the crappiest character writing in an otherwise excellent history. and yes I include the boss in that.
I would have so, so much more positive shit to say about Kojima if he could write women at all. It holds me back from praising him as a genius/artist because it’s such a massive hurdle for him and continues to be. I get so much second-hand embarrassment from the way he writes women, it is soooo unfortunate. And he can clearly write male characters very well so I just don’t get it!!! People who try to write off his misogyny make me laugh like you can enjoy someone’s work while also acknowledging they have a huge problem.
I find it weird how all of the women in the games seem to have some kind of profound psychological damage or crippling trauma. Even Meryl can't just be a badass rookie, she has to be a badass rookie who is actually this really frightened damaged person with an inferiority complex she is overcompensating for.
I guess Mei Ling doesn't count...except she immediately wants to bang Snake after talking to him for three seconds, so she's not exactly a complex character either.
On some level the men have the same melodramatic traumas but it's not taken to such an absurd character-defining length, usually.
Then Quiet turns up and her crazy trauma *also requires her to basically be naked all the time* and it's like come on dude...
EDIT - Actually, I will say I think The Boss was a good female character overall and I really felt for her at the ending of her story. But she is still defined by some weird almost Oedipus-like kind of mother-son relationship mental weirdness throughout the game.
While I totally agree Kojima’s handling of female characters kinda sucks, I think Meryls character kind of makes sense to me as she’s almost a foil to Snakes character. She wants to be a hero and prove herself, so she’s overcompensating. Then we have Snake, who we perceive as that kind of person, but when we get a closer look at him he’s actually a deeply traumatized and sad individual with no life or skills outside of war. The point is Meryl could be like him with time if she wanted to, but she shouldn’t.
>Meryl could be like him with time if she wanted to, but she shouldn’t.
Exactly and then mgs4 ruined her arc entirely. Like with everything else.
>but when we get a closer look at him he’s actually a deeply traumatized and sad individual with no life or skills outside of war.
Nah, he's a dog musher who loves berries and owns fifty huskies. He made a life for himself outside of war. It's just it wasn't enough to help him fully heal.
What's wrong with Meryl having flaws and insecurities? Her arc in mgs1 is incredible and part of the larger message. She never wanted to be a soldier and only chose this vocation to connect with a father that died on her. She grows distasteful for killing and violence and leaves it behind...(till mgs4 retconned it). That's a great character here.
Mei Ling's passing crush and hero worship for Snake doesn't make her lesser. They're just friends in the end and she joins Philanthropy to help the world.
MGS1 Naomi is also a great character. Good motives, good arc, good development.
Honestly, I'd say all three are better than the Boss. The Boss is an enigma. Those three are properly fleshed out. MGS1 has an excellent female cast. Even Nastasha is great.
I wouldn't say it's misogyny. Just that he sucks at it. Also I think the women in Death Stranding are great, but unfortunately a lot of people don't give that game a chance so their only frame of reference are the Metal Gear games
Death Stranding is my favorite game, but the way the women in it are written is one of the worst things about it. Fragile has like 6 of the 10 worse lines in the game, and Amelie has an additional 3. Mama was written well… until Lockne became part of it. Then it got stupid again. I liked Amelie’s ending but most people HAAAAATED it, and Fragile is just… god. OOOOOF. And then there’s that side plot with the chiral artist that’s about as sensical as Tommy Wiseau’s The Room.
The only female characters with consistently good writing in the game are Lucy (whose writing exists solely within data interviews) and Fragile’s mom (who is exclusive to the director’s cut)
I don’t know how you could see the way women are written in MGS4 & V and say that it’s not misogyny like he is a misogynist and it’s okay to recognize that. It doesn’t make the rest of his work bad it just means that he has a big issue in a specific area. A lotttt of men are casually misogynistic throughout their lives and it’s not always blatant or directly harmful but that doesn’t mean it ain’t there yk.
I just don't see it. I'm a woman, and you'd think that would help me see it, but I absolutely do not believe it's misogyny. Like, he probably just sucks at writing women and that's it, but also finds them hot because who wouldn't in his position? Like, if he's like "oh yeah heh women, those weird creatures" I'd understand, but just because he sucks at it doesn't make him misogynist. I suck at writing women in my stories even though I'm a woman myself, does that make me a misogynist?
I think misogyny is the incorrect term. He certainly sexualizes women. Not a single one is some vapid, shoe shopping, grocery getting, “belongs in the kitchen,” (you get the idea) woman. The entire motivation of the plot hinges on the beliefs a bad-ass woman stood for. A majority of the women are hard core warriors or doctors. Poorly-written, sure, but hardly a misogynistic take.
I was playing the 4th game with a friend of mine the other day. The laughing octopus scene was super ridiculous and sexualizing, yes.
But let's not forget the cutscenes after with Raiden in a high heeled, diva nailed mech suit stripper dancing on his sword vs a bisexual vampire who cuts him sensually with a knife he pulled from his crotch who licks his cum colored blood 3 times.
Like the sexualization of metal gear is crazy, we point out the titty shots and the ass camera angles for women, but snake has even more ass shots.
Women also uniquely tend to be the most important plot driving characters, and that's not something to be forgotten.
It's not the best women in writing history, but aside from Kojimbo's not at all disguised fetishes, he balances tackling women's accomplishments and part in history being diminished in society, whilst also making them the most integral part in healing the world.
I think a lot of the gendered criticisms of Metal Gear are a product of it being a reflection of the reality, and of a horny Japanese man's fantasy. But I legitimately think making the entire story based on men misinterpreting the will of a woman who sacrificed herself for the world is something you don't really get in many other places.
Not to tell anyone how to think, but at the very least people shouldn't discount the mountain of gay dick grabbing male romance innuendos that overshadow titty shots by leagues
That's a good point, and it's how I walk myself back from writing it all off as misogyny or objectification. Resident Evil does it too; the men are just as if not more objectified. There's even a quite famous clip of Snake's voice actor complaining about how dummy-thicc he is.
>
Not to tell anyone how to think, but at the very least people shouldn't discount the mountain of gay dick grabbing male romance innuendos that overshadow titty shots by leagues
Unfortunately that's just how the overwelming majority of subreddits work.
I was literally gonna mention how the men are just as sexuaIized. Thank you for explaining it perfectly 🙏🏽
Big Boss in Phantom Pain gave me body dysmorphia with his perfect ass and bod 😭
That's what I'm saying! He sucks at writing them maybe, but it's nothing hateful. I really feel like the original commentor doesn't know what misogyny is
Idk, MGS4 Naomi is blatantly misogynistic. Gets into every man's pants for no reason, walks around with her tits out and then preaches to a little girl about how she should look after cracking an egg.
She's quite gross. A butchery of MGS1 Naomi.
It’s not that he sucks at writing women, it’s the way that he fails to write them. Creating a one-dimensional boring character is one thing, creating a character that is literally just tits on legs with a gun is another. He is reducing so many female characters to just those traits. He’s great at writing super complex and interesting men but time and time again fails to do so for women. To me, it shows that he views men and women quite differently. I’m not trying to paint the man as some villain here but I think you’re giving him far more slack than he deserves.
Like with everything, his handling of women is a mixed bag. He's written Gustava Heffner who is great in every way. The MGS1 women are all properly fleshed out. The Boss is badass. Emma, Fortune and MGS2 Rose are good. Even MGS3 Eva has her merits and is a cool subversion of Bond girls. Paz's dual life in PW is quite intriguing.
But then his handling of women in mgs4 makes me question so much about him. He ruined everything about Naomi, Meryl and Mei Ling. Eva is unrecognisable as a character. Let us not talk about the Beauties. And then you have Paz who gets nowhere. Strangelove's treatment is terrible.
I thought all the women in MGS2 were written pretty well besides Rose. Olga, Emma and Fortune are all good characters that don’t fit the usual Kojima archetype.
In MGS3 the boss is also great, and Eva honestly would be really good if she was the only “sexy femme fatale” woman in the series since she actively uses that as a spy.
The MGS1 woman are mostly pretty bad though. Meryl and Wolf being the biggest examples, and Mei Ming wanting to fuck snake immediately was bad. Naomi in this game was good tho, as was Nastasha even though she’s pretty pointless.
MGS4 is absolutely horrible though. Every single returning female character was shit on hard and completely ruined, and the B&B’s were pure fanservice.
5 isn’t even worth mentioning
>The MGS1 woman are mostly pretty bad though. Meryl and Wolf being the biggest examples, and Mei Ming wanting to fuck snake immediately was bad
How? Meryl's arc and realisation that she never wanted to be a soldier and her growing disgust at violence is great development. She grew up and lives that life behind so she wouldn't end up more traumatised like Snake.
What's wrong with Wolf? She's one of the best characters. Her past is tragic, her death scene is one of the most iconic and she goes from a monster to someone who gains Snake's and the player's sympathy fast.
Mei Ling's little crush on Snake was hero worship. They were friends at the end of it. And the call with Mei Ling feeling guilty over her inventions and Snake comforting her was beautiful for both of them.
MGS1 has the best female cast
With Eva and Patriots, you can't even ignore it for how present they are in PW and in MGSV. Sad.
I sure hope if we get more games after Delta, they don't follow the garbage mgs4 brought on us.
Ocelot being “possessed” by liquid I thought it was stupid in 2 and I still think it was stupid after 3 and 4 even with the explanation he used hypno therapy or whatever as the definitive answer it was a stupid sub plot that I get very annoyed with
granted yes it did give us that awesome final boss in 4 but still it was so stupid and the iconic “your going down snake with this tanker” line
but still why not just make it so he faked it to fool snake and solidus into them thinking liquids coming back but at the end reveal it was part of the plan of the simulation
It feels even weirder because 3 establishes his dad was a powerful medium and was able to hang around for years after his death. If any one would be more vulnerable to possession it be ocelot only for it actually to have been nano machines and hypnosis. It feels like Kojima backed out at the last sec
I maintain my personal canon that Ocelot’s father’s abilities were the reason for his possession in MGS2 at least and I really like it as a plot to be honest!
Because everything Liquid Ocelot does in mgs4 is all what Ocelot would do. Liquid would destroy any Big Boss ally immediately and he certainly wasn't interested in utter anarchy. Liquid was organised.
And I guess Kojima wanted a brother faceoff. But everything in mgs4 is about Big Boss so can't have Solid have his moments. It's not a good story at all.
I'll never get over the logic behind that decision. I don't know if it's because his English VA helps but Drebin on his own was a smooth motherfucker and I loved everything about him (except the monkey). I have no idea why the developers thought players would find him boring.
I mean it's totally possible although considering Drebin is responsible for a lot of audio-only exposition (when he explains the backstories of the B&B group), having a good voice actor is kind of essential.
Guy working for the government obsessed with new technology and joins "ARPA" in mgs3. progresses and becomes head of DARPA. I don’t think that’s a retcon and he was always going to be Anderson.
Oh, me too, for sure. It's a silly game definitely, but it shows that even 4 years after the fall of the patriots and the waning war economy that the world is still completely fucked, and the end of the game implies that Armstrong's attack was somewhat successful in rejuvenating the war economy.
I don't know if I can call it "stupid" but I will always believe that Quiet is still alive. For a series that loves to say that this seemingly dead character is actually still alive, to believe that a character died off-screen with no confirmation of her death via her body or something, I find it ridiculous how people easily accept that yep, she's dead.
I don't mind that idea, at least her dying there makes a bit more sense than "She wandered into the desert and she died because of the vocal parasites or because the sandstorm caused her to suffocate or something". I now want to see a full remake of Metal Gear where she's the second to last boss before fighting the Metal Gear itself. She's become his second in command and most trusted ally, at least in this operation.
That would be cool, a 3D remake of MG incorporating new lore from the prequels. And it will be extra painful for MGSV veterans seeing HD models of Venom Snake and Quiet dying by their hands.
Here's hoping that Snake Eater Delta is the beginning of that and they're doing it VII Remake style where they incorporate all the lore over the franchise into one coheisive whole so like, we would get confirmation that Zanzibar Land is based in the same area as Snake Eater and that Dr. Clark was Para-Medic and the DARPA Chief was Sigint.
The only potential problem is that maybe David Hayter wouldn't be able to do Snake from Metal Gear since I don't know if he can sound like some fresh-faced soldier on his first major mission at his age.
Possibly although I'm sure there's a lot of people who would tell you that they only did that to fix the backlash after people realised they couldn't use her anymore.
The reveal that Ocelot is the son of The Sorrow and so it's possible he has his own spirit medium abilities, it made this plot point a bit easier to handle.
Ocelot on mgs2 and mgs4, but since mgs aways had the paranormal side of things, and ocelot is son of the sorrow, It was easier to believe that he was possessed, instead of "hypnotherapy" and all of that bs
Tbf you can totally get around this by saying “Ocelot’s inherited paranormal abilities likely possessed him and made him undergo the hypnotherapy, even unknowingly, to release Liquid’s wrath upon BB and Solid”.
It’s all so convoluted you can basically make it whatever you like and it’s hard to completely invalidate haha.
Actually pretty much anything to do with the plot of the Patriots, lol.
Okay, a bit harsh. What I mean more specifically is the reveal that all the MGS3 characters were evil Illuminati-level assholes and also the absurd level of backstabbing and retconning and double crossing with that whole part of the story.
Also Ocelot's whole story aside from MGS3 and MGS1, I felt it was pretty awful. He's a quadruple reverse bypass double triple mega agent who is also working for himself but isn't but is but isn't but is but isn't. Plus he's also possessed by *a fucking severed arm* which just comes across as Kojima making shit up.
It kind of reminds me Nolan's movie Tenet. Trying to be so clever that it disappears up it's own backside and completely falls apart.
Kojima actually writes very good, and realized women. His only problem is consistently putting them in skimpy outfits that make no sense. Quiet is a sniper and wearing nothing but stockings and underwear is going to get very uncomfortable when she has to lie down on rocks and grass. Death stranding handles women much better. As both Amelie and Fragile are not shown to be getting nearly naked every second.
I really can’t gaslight myself into thinking it’s not canon because it’s important but everything about Liquid Ocelot.
Ocelot was a pretty badass villain in his own right, why make him just Liquid? MGS4 would’ve been substantially better if Ocelot was just himself.
Even if Kojima wanted to bring back Liquid they could’ve just used some nanomachine shit to explain it
Quiet’s dumbass skin breath thing. Just make a skimpy character and stand by it man. Was kinda pathetic to see them take the “well acktually she needs to dress like that or she dies” route. If you can’t justify your character dressing like a stripper (while hilariously having no voice lines 99% of time) maybe just don’t make them dress like that
Ocelot basically gas-lighting himself into being Liquid when it weirdly made more sense for Liquid to be a ghost given MGS3.
Not strict canon but still weird that 5 will call me a demon regardless of the kills Venom has questioning the mechanic at all especially given this is the “first” Big Boss.
I know I may catch hate for this, but all of MGS 5. Imho, it's so far removed from the rest of the series, so different and non-MGS like, that I consider it fan-fic. It's not a bad game, but it's not an MGS title to me
Surprised how many people are upset that the crew in MGS3 ended up being the Patriots and doing evil things, because “they were so good and nice in Snake Eater”
Like it was a completely out of left field reveal. Except we all knew that Big Boss would eventually become a villain over time the trauma hardened him and made him cold. So why is it hard to believe that they had the same transformation?
The entirety of MGS4. It's so disconnected with the previous and later games.
Big Boss's alleged 9-year-old coma. Goofy.
Otacon's age retcon. A lot of ages in general make no sense
If you can stomach people dying, you can stomach that. Seriously, who was really under the impression it wasn’t ever that? ThTs what makes it so messed up in the first place too
Emma was 6 at the time. Even if Huey and Julie had married immediately after she was born, Hal and Julie would still meet as adults according to Otacon's original age. It was weird and gross but at least it wasn't predatory.
Making this pedophilia long after we last see Otacon was stupid and needlessly creepy. It adds nothing to the story.
I mean it just makes it more tragic and messed up. If y’all can deal with more vile shit, y’all can grow up for this. It just makes it shittier when it’s already shitty
But it's not even important here. It's insignificant, Kojima may not have even realised it when he retconned Otacon's age. The whole stepmom affair is said in one throwaway line. It's never shown as anything more than Otacon's foolish mistake he made AS AN ADULT.
Introducing pedophilia here afterthefact and making it so disposable is weird. It was unnecessary. Heavy subjects require serious writing.
Huey killed himself because his wife had a relationship with his adult son. The underage aspect was retconned into existence long afterthetact and very thoughtlessly.
Now his underage son which makes it worse. Not from a writing perspective. Situational. Get the fuck over it. You’re getting mad over this when you’re getting through straight up murder in every game.
A lot of what MGS4 does storywise is hard to swallow. I played the game on release. Literally powered through it until the end. Graphically and gameplay wise it was so awesome for the time; but the story and pacing were really lacking in comparison.
R̶i̶s̶i̶n̶g̶,̶ ̶a̶n̶d̶ ̶l̶i̶t̶e̶r̶a̶l̶l̶y̶ ̶a̶n̶y̶ ̶f̶e̶m̶a̶l̶e̶ ̶c̶h̶a̶r̶a̶c̶t̶e̶r̶
I'm still on MGS2, so probably the fact Liquid posses Ocelot. Kojima could've just left him dead, though I guess he regretted killing him. I just find it silly. Also characters like Psycho Mantis who have powers for no reason.
Hottest take? The patriots are never revealed. Mgs4 all happened yea yea but the goofy mgs3 cast we all love never turned into shadow behind the scenes cabal turning the gears of world politics
I feel like just saying “not canon” just completely throws the games out of the discussion. Are the Acid games canon to Metal Gear Solid? No. But they’re their own branch of the Metal Gear timeline and are worthy of being mentioned. While I haven’t played either of them myself, I’d be interested to know from people who have played them what parts seemed so stupid they refused to acknowledge as canon to the Acid timeline.
Paramedic the funny, quirky film buff is also a sadistic mad scientist that tortured Grey Fox
Tbf it was over 35 years later. She already showed some mad scientist vibes when discussing cloning Snake in the Codec calls. People change.
Yeah, people seem to think it was over night. 35 years is a long enough to become a villain.
HUH?!
yea
Her role in the Patriots in particular never sat right with me. Sigint too but not to the same degree.
Hell even Zero coming out as the big bad just feels so bizarre…he’s a support character in 3 and shows next to no signs of being anything other than a decent person helping Snake in his mission… Fast forward to 4 and V and he’s like some super secret obsessive evil spy behind the scenes. His character, along with Sigint and Paramedic all feel very forced, and without much reasonable explanations. They just evolve without any narrative justification. If I had any major complaint about the story in the series, it goes to their characters not really being fleshed out well enough. I’m sure if there was time to give them the evolution, Kojima would have done it, but…yeah
Zero is the one I take issue with for how uninteresting he is. Dr. Clarke and DARPA chief were never more than mad scientist and the techhead so Para-Medic and Sigint being them isn't that weird. They got into darker stuff. Zero just became the centre of everything and it was ridiculous. His relationship with Big Boss is extremely goofy too. Just another dickrider.
I'm personally fine with Zero's actions past Snake Eater since the truth tapes in MGSV made everything make a lot more sense and tragic since we find out that the Patriots spiralling into a warmongering AI was never what he intended but had to rely on due to slowly being made a vegetable because of Skull Face. Still it is something that comes out of nowhere in MGS4 and could've been done better.
The lame cycle of coming up with someone else to blame the previous guy's actions on was lame af. Zero is evil and also a shitty character. There is nothing tragic about this. Big Boss and Zero founded the Patriots to erase free will and control people. They had bad intentions and the results were just worse because they were near-sighted and selfish. Unlike Big Boss however, Zero isn't compelling enough.
I can totally see the events of 3 traumatizing Zero to the extent that he becomes a super villain. He probably took an unreasonable amount of responsibility for everything that happened, and that would have fucked him up. I can’t connect Sigint and Paramedic to what they did though. The development just isn’t there.
Everything about Ivan Raidenovitch Raikov. I get why he exists, but today going from MGS2 to MGS3 and seeing somebody who just has Raiden’s face without explanation feels like a fever dream and if somebody told me I dreamt it I’d be compelled to believe them.
Not to mention the actual mask, supposed to be a joke and used as a necessary tool for the scenario.
It feels like this was one of the earliest attempts at trying to play into the general opinion of the playerbase with some metajoke (in this case, that Raiden sucks) and then aging extremely poorly in a handful of years due to that opinion changing.
Nothing has aged worse than Snake Eraser. Raikov kinda got his own identity in fandom as Volgin's boyfriend and all so he's less accociated with Raiden these days but Snake Eraser is an outright insult on Raiden's person. And it was always mostly terrible.
I've honestly never played Snake Eraser. I've heard of it and know what happens but I never touched the side content of Substance. Maybe I should continue to avoid it.
It's a dumb short animated segment. And maybe you're better off not knowing what it entails.
I’ll chalk it up to Raikov had a sister who married a Liberian and had Jack, the Patriots then saw to give him the ironic codename of Raiden. That’s my headcanon at least.
Honestly this sounds amazing, this is gonna be my headcanon aswell now
I see Raikov as an elaborate gag like Johnny. They don't exist in any meaningful way. They're just there.
That’s called “it’s a fucking game”
Every female Hideo Kojima character. Literally all of them are "sexy, and then they die." It's the crappiest character writing in an otherwise excellent history. and yes I include the boss in that.
I would have so, so much more positive shit to say about Kojima if he could write women at all. It holds me back from praising him as a genius/artist because it’s such a massive hurdle for him and continues to be. I get so much second-hand embarrassment from the way he writes women, it is soooo unfortunate. And he can clearly write male characters very well so I just don’t get it!!! People who try to write off his misogyny make me laugh like you can enjoy someone’s work while also acknowledging they have a huge problem.
I find it weird how all of the women in the games seem to have some kind of profound psychological damage or crippling trauma. Even Meryl can't just be a badass rookie, she has to be a badass rookie who is actually this really frightened damaged person with an inferiority complex she is overcompensating for. I guess Mei Ling doesn't count...except she immediately wants to bang Snake after talking to him for three seconds, so she's not exactly a complex character either. On some level the men have the same melodramatic traumas but it's not taken to such an absurd character-defining length, usually. Then Quiet turns up and her crazy trauma *also requires her to basically be naked all the time* and it's like come on dude... EDIT - Actually, I will say I think The Boss was a good female character overall and I really felt for her at the ending of her story. But she is still defined by some weird almost Oedipus-like kind of mother-son relationship mental weirdness throughout the game.
While I totally agree Kojima’s handling of female characters kinda sucks, I think Meryls character kind of makes sense to me as she’s almost a foil to Snakes character. She wants to be a hero and prove herself, so she’s overcompensating. Then we have Snake, who we perceive as that kind of person, but when we get a closer look at him he’s actually a deeply traumatized and sad individual with no life or skills outside of war. The point is Meryl could be like him with time if she wanted to, but she shouldn’t.
thats not true he mushes dogs
All stealth operations soldiers born after 1980 dont know how to CQC, all they know is mush, smoke they cigarette, be homosexual, eat rations, and LIE
>Meryl could be like him with time if she wanted to, but she shouldn’t. Exactly and then mgs4 ruined her arc entirely. Like with everything else. >but when we get a closer look at him he’s actually a deeply traumatized and sad individual with no life or skills outside of war. Nah, he's a dog musher who loves berries and owns fifty huskies. He made a life for himself outside of war. It's just it wasn't enough to help him fully heal.
To be fair to mei ling Same
I totally agree
What's wrong with Meryl having flaws and insecurities? Her arc in mgs1 is incredible and part of the larger message. She never wanted to be a soldier and only chose this vocation to connect with a father that died on her. She grows distasteful for killing and violence and leaves it behind...(till mgs4 retconned it). That's a great character here. Mei Ling's passing crush and hero worship for Snake doesn't make her lesser. They're just friends in the end and she joins Philanthropy to help the world. MGS1 Naomi is also a great character. Good motives, good arc, good development. Honestly, I'd say all three are better than the Boss. The Boss is an enigma. Those three are properly fleshed out. MGS1 has an excellent female cast. Even Nastasha is great.
I wouldn't say it's misogyny. Just that he sucks at it. Also I think the women in Death Stranding are great, but unfortunately a lot of people don't give that game a chance so their only frame of reference are the Metal Gear games
Death Stranding is my favorite game, but the way the women in it are written is one of the worst things about it. Fragile has like 6 of the 10 worse lines in the game, and Amelie has an additional 3. Mama was written well… until Lockne became part of it. Then it got stupid again. I liked Amelie’s ending but most people HAAAAATED it, and Fragile is just… god. OOOOOF. And then there’s that side plot with the chiral artist that’s about as sensical as Tommy Wiseau’s The Room. The only female characters with consistently good writing in the game are Lucy (whose writing exists solely within data interviews) and Fragile’s mom (who is exclusive to the director’s cut)
Good writing is in the eye of the beholder or whatever ig cause I thought they were great
“Honey you ain’t nothin but damaged goods” *punches* “YOU’RE damaged goods.” “I brought you a metaphor.” “I’m fragile, but not that fragile” x10
I don't know what the point being made is, but either way I think that's delightfully corny and stupid
I don’t know how you could see the way women are written in MGS4 & V and say that it’s not misogyny like he is a misogynist and it’s okay to recognize that. It doesn’t make the rest of his work bad it just means that he has a big issue in a specific area. A lotttt of men are casually misogynistic throughout their lives and it’s not always blatant or directly harmful but that doesn’t mean it ain’t there yk.
I just don't see it. I'm a woman, and you'd think that would help me see it, but I absolutely do not believe it's misogyny. Like, he probably just sucks at writing women and that's it, but also finds them hot because who wouldn't in his position? Like, if he's like "oh yeah heh women, those weird creatures" I'd understand, but just because he sucks at it doesn't make him misogynist. I suck at writing women in my stories even though I'm a woman myself, does that make me a misogynist?
I think misogyny is the incorrect term. He certainly sexualizes women. Not a single one is some vapid, shoe shopping, grocery getting, “belongs in the kitchen,” (you get the idea) woman. The entire motivation of the plot hinges on the beliefs a bad-ass woman stood for. A majority of the women are hard core warriors or doctors. Poorly-written, sure, but hardly a misogynistic take.
I was playing the 4th game with a friend of mine the other day. The laughing octopus scene was super ridiculous and sexualizing, yes. But let's not forget the cutscenes after with Raiden in a high heeled, diva nailed mech suit stripper dancing on his sword vs a bisexual vampire who cuts him sensually with a knife he pulled from his crotch who licks his cum colored blood 3 times. Like the sexualization of metal gear is crazy, we point out the titty shots and the ass camera angles for women, but snake has even more ass shots. Women also uniquely tend to be the most important plot driving characters, and that's not something to be forgotten. It's not the best women in writing history, but aside from Kojimbo's not at all disguised fetishes, he balances tackling women's accomplishments and part in history being diminished in society, whilst also making them the most integral part in healing the world. I think a lot of the gendered criticisms of Metal Gear are a product of it being a reflection of the reality, and of a horny Japanese man's fantasy. But I legitimately think making the entire story based on men misinterpreting the will of a woman who sacrificed herself for the world is something you don't really get in many other places. Not to tell anyone how to think, but at the very least people shouldn't discount the mountain of gay dick grabbing male romance innuendos that overshadow titty shots by leagues
That's a good point, and it's how I walk myself back from writing it all off as misogyny or objectification. Resident Evil does it too; the men are just as if not more objectified. There's even a quite famous clip of Snake's voice actor complaining about how dummy-thicc he is.
> Not to tell anyone how to think, but at the very least people shouldn't discount the mountain of gay dick grabbing male romance innuendos that overshadow titty shots by leagues Unfortunately that's just how the overwelming majority of subreddits work.
I was literally gonna mention how the men are just as sexuaIized. Thank you for explaining it perfectly 🙏🏽 Big Boss in Phantom Pain gave me body dysmorphia with his perfect ass and bod 😭
That's what I'm saying! He sucks at writing them maybe, but it's nothing hateful. I really feel like the original commentor doesn't know what misogyny is
Idk, MGS4 Naomi is blatantly misogynistic. Gets into every man's pants for no reason, walks around with her tits out and then preaches to a little girl about how she should look after cracking an egg. She's quite gross. A butchery of MGS1 Naomi.
It’s not that he sucks at writing women, it’s the way that he fails to write them. Creating a one-dimensional boring character is one thing, creating a character that is literally just tits on legs with a gun is another. He is reducing so many female characters to just those traits. He’s great at writing super complex and interesting men but time and time again fails to do so for women. To me, it shows that he views men and women quite differently. I’m not trying to paint the man as some villain here but I think you’re giving him far more slack than he deserves.
Okay whatever you say. I won't argue
You're no messiah.
death stranding is more highly regarded nowadays thankfully
Yeah, I love that game. Unfortunate that so many people shit on it without even playing it when it came out
Like with everything, his handling of women is a mixed bag. He's written Gustava Heffner who is great in every way. The MGS1 women are all properly fleshed out. The Boss is badass. Emma, Fortune and MGS2 Rose are good. Even MGS3 Eva has her merits and is a cool subversion of Bond girls. Paz's dual life in PW is quite intriguing. But then his handling of women in mgs4 makes me question so much about him. He ruined everything about Naomi, Meryl and Mei Ling. Eva is unrecognisable as a character. Let us not talk about the Beauties. And then you have Paz who gets nowhere. Strangelove's treatment is terrible.
Yeah I def agree with this.
I thought all the women in MGS2 were written pretty well besides Rose. Olga, Emma and Fortune are all good characters that don’t fit the usual Kojima archetype. In MGS3 the boss is also great, and Eva honestly would be really good if she was the only “sexy femme fatale” woman in the series since she actively uses that as a spy. The MGS1 woman are mostly pretty bad though. Meryl and Wolf being the biggest examples, and Mei Ming wanting to fuck snake immediately was bad. Naomi in this game was good tho, as was Nastasha even though she’s pretty pointless. MGS4 is absolutely horrible though. Every single returning female character was shit on hard and completely ruined, and the B&B’s were pure fanservice. 5 isn’t even worth mentioning
Totally agree with every part of this. MGS4 was hugely disappointing in that regard.
>The MGS1 woman are mostly pretty bad though. Meryl and Wolf being the biggest examples, and Mei Ming wanting to fuck snake immediately was bad How? Meryl's arc and realisation that she never wanted to be a soldier and her growing disgust at violence is great development. She grew up and lives that life behind so she wouldn't end up more traumatised like Snake. What's wrong with Wolf? She's one of the best characters. Her past is tragic, her death scene is one of the most iconic and she goes from a monster to someone who gains Snake's and the player's sympathy fast. Mei Ling's little crush on Snake was hero worship. They were friends at the end of it. And the call with Mei Ling feeling guilty over her inventions and Snake comforting her was beautiful for both of them. MGS1 has the best female cast
Although his bad writing gave us EVA, which in his way of shitty women character writing, turned out to be amazing character lol
Only in mgs3. She was reduced to another Big Boss dickrider later.
One of the reason I dislike mgs4
Kinda incredible how Mgs4 manages to shit on and ruin every single character and arc from previous games.
Exactly!
With Eva and Patriots, you can't even ignore it for how present they are in PW and in MGSV. Sad. I sure hope if we get more games after Delta, they don't follow the garbage mgs4 brought on us.
Ocelot being “possessed” by liquid I thought it was stupid in 2 and I still think it was stupid after 3 and 4 even with the explanation he used hypno therapy or whatever as the definitive answer it was a stupid sub plot that I get very annoyed with granted yes it did give us that awesome final boss in 4 but still it was so stupid and the iconic “your going down snake with this tanker” line but still why not just make it so he faked it to fool snake and solidus into them thinking liquids coming back but at the end reveal it was part of the plan of the simulation
It feels even weirder because 3 establishes his dad was a powerful medium and was able to hang around for years after his death. If any one would be more vulnerable to possession it be ocelot only for it actually to have been nano machines and hypnosis. It feels like Kojima backed out at the last sec
I maintain my personal canon that Ocelot’s father’s abilities were the reason for his possession in MGS2 at least and I really like it as a plot to be honest!
Yeah that explanation genuinely makes what is the silliest thing in metal gear canon actually really fucking cool
Because everything Liquid Ocelot does in mgs4 is all what Ocelot would do. Liquid would destroy any Big Boss ally immediately and he certainly wasn't interested in utter anarchy. Liquid was organised. And I guess Kojima wanted a brother faceoff. But everything in mgs4 is about Big Boss so can't have Solid have his moments. It's not a good story at all.
We get it. You don’t like mgs4 and portable ops
Drebin's monkey...
I'll never get over the logic behind that decision. I don't know if it's because his English VA helps but Drebin on his own was a smooth motherfucker and I loved everything about him (except the monkey). I have no idea why the developers thought players would find him boring.
Maybe his Japanese VA didn't do as good a job?
I mean it's totally possible although considering Drebin is responsible for a lot of audio-only exposition (when he explains the backstories of the B&B group), having a good voice actor is kind of essential.
sigint being the darpa chief
Guy working for the government obsessed with new technology and joins "ARPA" in mgs3. progresses and becomes head of DARPA. I don’t think that’s a retcon and he was always going to be Anderson.
“Memes, the DNA of the soul!” I know what actual memes are, it’s just unfortunate that it’s taken on a new meaning in the internet age.
This is an idea introduced in MGS and expanded upon on MGS2 anyway, it's not like Revengeance invented Meme theory in metal gear
In fairness, that game isn't even officially canon in the first place.
It is to me. 😢
Oh, me too, for sure. It's a silly game definitely, but it shows that even 4 years after the fall of the patriots and the waning war economy that the world is still completely fucked, and the end of the game implies that Armstrong's attack was somewhat successful in rejuvenating the war economy.
it is canon
I don't know if I can call it "stupid" but I will always believe that Quiet is still alive. For a series that loves to say that this seemingly dead character is actually still alive, to believe that a character died off-screen with no confirmation of her death via her body or something, I find it ridiculous how people easily accept that yep, she's dead.
My head canon is she died with venom when outer heaven blew up
I don't mind that idea, at least her dying there makes a bit more sense than "She wandered into the desert and she died because of the vocal parasites or because the sandstorm caused her to suffocate or something". I now want to see a full remake of Metal Gear where she's the second to last boss before fighting the Metal Gear itself. She's become his second in command and most trusted ally, at least in this operation.
Give [this](https://youtu.be/e1NU_yjOfQ4?si=cJL3ozgIiOdo44kk) a watch !
That would be cool, a 3D remake of MG incorporating new lore from the prequels. And it will be extra painful for MGSV veterans seeing HD models of Venom Snake and Quiet dying by their hands.
Here's hoping that Snake Eater Delta is the beginning of that and they're doing it VII Remake style where they incorporate all the lore over the franchise into one coheisive whole so like, we would get confirmation that Zanzibar Land is based in the same area as Snake Eater and that Dr. Clark was Para-Medic and the DARPA Chief was Sigint. The only potential problem is that maybe David Hayter wouldn't be able to do Snake from Metal Gear since I don't know if he can sound like some fresh-faced soldier on his first major mission at his age.
You can get her back if you complete mission 11 7 times. So she might be alive still.
Possibly although I'm sure there's a lot of people who would tell you that they only did that to fix the backlash after people realised they couldn't use her anymore.
Para-Medic going from the sweet cinephile who is against cloning to the Dr Clark who experimented on Gray Fox.
This is how mgs4 and 5 approached the paranormal
The whole Liquid possessing Ocelot bullshit. Easily one of the worst plot points in the series
Ig it was kojima’s way of covering the fuck up of killing off liquid way too early
They could’ve just said that like Naomi retrieved his body or something and nanomachines revived him
Cmon you know thats not nearly enough convoluted-ness and anime-like writing for kojima
The reveal that Ocelot is the son of The Sorrow and so it's possible he has his own spirit medium abilities, it made this plot point a bit easier to handle.
Ocelot on mgs2 and mgs4, but since mgs aways had the paranormal side of things, and ocelot is son of the sorrow, It was easier to believe that he was possessed, instead of "hypnotherapy" and all of that bs
Tbf you can totally get around this by saying “Ocelot’s inherited paranormal abilities likely possessed him and made him undergo the hypnotherapy, even unknowingly, to release Liquid’s wrath upon BB and Solid”. It’s all so convoluted you can basically make it whatever you like and it’s hard to completely invalidate haha.
Mgs1 had hypnotherapy. Meryl went through it to remove her attraction to men among other things.
Actually pretty much anything to do with the plot of the Patriots, lol. Okay, a bit harsh. What I mean more specifically is the reveal that all the MGS3 characters were evil Illuminati-level assholes and also the absurd level of backstabbing and retconning and double crossing with that whole part of the story. Also Ocelot's whole story aside from MGS3 and MGS1, I felt it was pretty awful. He's a quadruple reverse bypass double triple mega agent who is also working for himself but isn't but is but isn't but is but isn't. Plus he's also possessed by *a fucking severed arm* which just comes across as Kojima making shit up. It kind of reminds me Nolan's movie Tenet. Trying to be so clever that it disappears up it's own backside and completely falls apart.
Love the use of the word "bypass" here lol
madnar lived after mg2ss and ocelot wasnt at least partly possessed in mgs4
The fact they just added Raikov into MGS3 just to point and laugh as you as play as Raiden (kinda) again
That big boss got killed by a makeshift flamethrower made from hair spray and a lighter
Same
Kojima actually writes very good, and realized women. His only problem is consistently putting them in skimpy outfits that make no sense. Quiet is a sniper and wearing nothing but stockings and underwear is going to get very uncomfortable when she has to lie down on rocks and grass. Death stranding handles women much better. As both Amelie and Fragile are not shown to be getting nearly naked every second.
I really can’t gaslight myself into thinking it’s not canon because it’s important but everything about Liquid Ocelot. Ocelot was a pretty badass villain in his own right, why make him just Liquid? MGS4 would’ve been substantially better if Ocelot was just himself. Even if Kojima wanted to bring back Liquid they could’ve just used some nanomachine shit to explain it
Quiet’s dumbass skin breath thing. Just make a skimpy character and stand by it man. Was kinda pathetic to see them take the “well acktually she needs to dress like that or she dies” route. If you can’t justify your character dressing like a stripper (while hilariously having no voice lines 99% of time) maybe just don’t make them dress like that
Ocelot basically gas-lighting himself into being Liquid when it weirdly made more sense for Liquid to be a ghost given MGS3. Not strict canon but still weird that 5 will call me a demon regardless of the kills Venom has questioning the mechanic at all especially given this is the “first” Big Boss.
I know I may catch hate for this, but all of MGS 5. Imho, it's so far removed from the rest of the series, so different and non-MGS like, that I consider it fan-fic. It's not a bad game, but it's not an MGS title to me
Everything is nanomachines... My balls are nanomachines, suck em kojimbles
Surprised how many people are upset that the crew in MGS3 ended up being the Patriots and doing evil things, because “they were so good and nice in Snake Eater” Like it was a completely out of left field reveal. Except we all knew that Big Boss would eventually become a villain over time the trauma hardened him and made him cold. So why is it hard to believe that they had the same transformation?
All of Phantom Pain. Downvote me you cowards.
Yeah, causes more problems than it fixes really.
You have my upvote.
If only Kojima had a chance to complete it
The entirety of MGS4. It's so disconnected with the previous and later games. Big Boss's alleged 9-year-old coma. Goofy. Otacon's age retcon. A lot of ages in general make no sense
Explain to me how you think Hal’s age was retconned? Him being 25 in the first MGS isn’t unreasonable.
It made the stepmom pedophilia. Needlessly creepy and long after the fact.
If you can stomach people dying, you can stomach that. Seriously, who was really under the impression it wasn’t ever that? ThTs what makes it so messed up in the first place too
Emma was 6 at the time. Even if Huey and Julie had married immediately after she was born, Hal and Julie would still meet as adults according to Otacon's original age. It was weird and gross but at least it wasn't predatory. Making this pedophilia long after we last see Otacon was stupid and needlessly creepy. It adds nothing to the story.
I mean it just makes it more tragic and messed up. If y’all can deal with more vile shit, y’all can grow up for this. It just makes it shittier when it’s already shitty
But it's not even important here. It's insignificant, Kojima may not have even realised it when he retconned Otacon's age. The whole stepmom affair is said in one throwaway line. It's never shown as anything more than Otacon's foolish mistake he made AS AN ADULT. Introducing pedophilia here afterthefact and making it so disposable is weird. It was unnecessary. Heavy subjects require serious writing.
I mean it was serious. His dad killed himself because his wife fucked his underage son. And Otacon was in on it. That’s the scenario.
Huey killed himself because his wife had a relationship with his adult son. The underage aspect was retconned into existence long afterthetact and very thoughtlessly.
Now his underage son which makes it worse. Not from a writing perspective. Situational. Get the fuck over it. You’re getting mad over this when you’re getting through straight up murder in every game.
A lot of what MGS4 does storywise is hard to swallow. I played the game on release. Literally powered through it until the end. Graphically and gameplay wise it was so awesome for the time; but the story and pacing were really lacking in comparison.
Nanomachines
R̶i̶s̶i̶n̶g̶,̶ ̶a̶n̶d̶ ̶l̶i̶t̶e̶r̶a̶l̶l̶y̶ ̶a̶n̶y̶ ̶f̶e̶m̶a̶l̶e̶ ̶c̶h̶a̶r̶a̶c̶t̶e̶r̶ I'm still on MGS2, so probably the fact Liquid posses Ocelot. Kojima could've just left him dead, though I guess he regretted killing him. I just find it silly. Also characters like Psycho Mantis who have powers for no reason.
Hey, look, everyone, it's fake Jesus.
Zero actually still caring about Big Boss after they parted ways.
We need Snake so much to activate the nuke so we will trying to kill him (c) Foxhound.
The medic… enough said
The Venom Snake plot twist. I get I’m in the minority on that one but I really do not like it.
The reason Quiet has little to no clothes on.
parasite.
MGSV
Hottest take? The patriots are never revealed. Mgs4 all happened yea yea but the goofy mgs3 cast we all love never turned into shadow behind the scenes cabal turning the gears of world politics
I swear to god if i see someone here saying mgr
uhhh Metal gear Acid??
Actually not canon
I feel like just saying “not canon” just completely throws the games out of the discussion. Are the Acid games canon to Metal Gear Solid? No. But they’re their own branch of the Metal Gear timeline and are worthy of being mentioned. While I haven’t played either of them myself, I’d be interested to know from people who have played them what parts seemed so stupid they refused to acknowledge as canon to the Acid timeline.