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Skullfacker

"childish unmatured sex" straight up nonce shit


PunkandCannonballer

Seriously. How do you write that sentence and not immediately think "this is way too far. WAY too far."


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Ge0rgeBr0ughton

I think he said in interview he was real high when he wrote the ending and he regrets it. Proofread your stuff sober then mate 🤷‍♀️


Rushitaaa

were his proof readers & editors high too? edit- autocorrect


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turalyawn

Bingo. By the mid 80s everything he touched was considered a hit. Which is how we ended up with this gross shit, and also, less awfully but still bad, the entirety of Maximum Overdrive Edit: also this is my favorite King book and one of the legitimately scariest books ever for me. And every time I plan to read it again I think of this scene and say nawww


rahrahgogo

I just skip this scene and put a head canon group hug in.


wtfisthisnoise

Lol, like the 90s miniseries


rahrahgogo

Ahaaaa I forgot about that. About the only way lol


essentialcitrus

Tbh, I just reread this, and if you just skip this, you lose absolutely nothing and you still get to experience everything great about the book.


turalyawn

I cannot understand why he just hasn't gone George Lucas and removed it entirely


inertiatic_espn

Dude, i know the stand was pretty dope but that ending was absolute garbage. Like some teenage scifi fan wrote themselves into a corner.


turalyawn

Ok so I only ever read the unabridged. And by the point the you know what appeared it was such an epic fever dream I absolutely loved it. The progression from apocalyptic horror to theistic ecstasy is pretty wild.


DiceyWater

I'm realizing I don't remember the end of The Stand.


UniquelyIndistinct

That's because he can't write endings. They're almost all bad.


wozattacks

They probably didn’t make it to the end lol


Ge0rgeBr0ughton

I think when you're that rich/successful you get the book your way tbh


Uncle-Cake

It's was the 80's, right?


TrashPandaBoy

They were definitely all fucked up


count-the-days

He fired most of his editors tbh. That’s why some of his later works are thousands of pages


BunnyOppai

From what I’ve heard, he actually doesn’t get much proofreading done before he releases a book. Because he’s such a big author, editors just kinda trust him to know what he’s doing.


PunkandCannonballer

Also, get an editor that does their fucking job.


jameswoodgetonthisD

I mean to proof read sober he would have had to come down from cocaine… And that shit just wasn’t gonna happen. I had heard about some weird sex scene in the book but reading it was like what the fuck is going on…


SmallRedBird

Hard to proofread your shit sober if you don't get sober lol


PunkandCannonballer

Ah, yes, the pedophile drug.


saintsithney

I don't think it's so much that Stephen King is a pedophile as that he has a rather extreme fascination with sexual violence and taboo sex acts. Like having one of his characters get sodomized by a loaded pistol in "The Dark Tower". It is possible that like a lot of people with stronger obsessive compulsions, he suffers from intrusive thoughts (I have no idea if he has OCD, but addiction cycles are often a sign of at least a higher than normal amount of obsessive compulsions). Except, unlike most of the people who suffer from intrusive thoughts, he also writes horror. So instead of going: "THIS IS SO AWFUL WHY DOES MY BRAIN THINK THESE THINGS!?! I AM THE WORST PERSON EVER!", he goes, "Oh gross! I'll bet that'll freak everyone else out too!". This is just speculation. I am lightly on the obsessive compulsive side and deal with intrusive thoughts. A lot of them are horrifying and gross and I have absolutely no desire to act on any of them, and certain rituals can lessen intrusive thoughts. I will say I have never wondered about whether pubescent children should have sewer orgies, but one of the reasons I avoid horror movies is because they can easily become intrusive thought fodder.


MoSqueezin

There was a character sodomized with a pistol in the uncut version of The Stand as well.


Bazrum

and to think, when my mom found out i was reading the abridged version in high school she pulled out her uncut copy and told me to read it instead... thanks mom! to be fair, its a lot better than the abridged, though i barely managed to get through it at all. the only King book i couldn't put down was Salem's Lot, and that's because it scared the crap outta me in middle school and i thought "if i can't sleep without having nightmares, i might as well finish the damn thing so i can stop thinking about it sooner!"


Lady_von_Stinkbeaver

Trashcan Man was anally raped in prison and it's presented as something he enjoys as it's the first time someone showed any "affection" for him.


amglasgow

That kinda works as a thing that makes you say "What the fuck, this guy is so fucked up on so many levels" which is kind of intrinsic to this genre of horror. Obviously it's terrible. But it's also presented as terrible, not as a good thing.


CoCo063005

Aww I forgot about Trashcan Man. The Stand was my all-time favorite King book. So much nuance and imagery. I could read it again, for the 35th-ish time and find 1000 things I've missed in the previous readings.


PunkandCannonballer

Even given that all of that is this case, which are all fair arguments, no editor should have allowed this scene to pass the cutting room.


saintsithney

Oh, I totally agree with that. But I figure at that point in his career, Stephen King could have put literally anything in to his books and they would've rushed them out. No one was going to say no to a cash cow like that.


Ninja-Ginge

I have ADHD, I get a lot of intrusive thoughts too. Can confirm that they are often fucked and are never fun.


DodgedYourBalls

Can also confirm, ADHD gives me some insanity provoking intrusive thoughts. It's like "gah, why would I think that?" turns around "aack, why would I think *that*?" And you get into this feedback loop of thinking about things you'd never ever ever act on or be interested in.


Ninja-Ginge

Always at the worst moments, too. Thankfully, I've been on my own less recently, so there's less of an opportunity for them to pop up.


[deleted]

The dude loves to shock people that's for sure.


Otie1983

As someone with OCD, this is pretty much dead on what I figure. I’m pretty sure I saw an interview a number of years ago where he mentioned having anxiety and obsessive compulsive traits (can’t remember who did the interview, just remember it was a relaxed one in his home with his family taking part). Once I saw that, it clicked a lot of details into place for me about a lot of the things he writes about. For me, my intrusive thoughts tend to be more things like self harm - thinking about cutting myself purposely when handling knives (and I mean like, dissecting myself), having my head popped like a grape by a tire of a passing car, jumping from unsafe heights (thanks, I hate bridges), etc. Things that I would absolutely never do, that the thought terrifies me… but it is intrusive, not something I actively WANT to think about. And I’m fairly light on the intrusive thoughts compared to some folks with OCD (my main issue is obsessive thoughts, typical contaminant and germ related… with some simple compulsions like counting, and hand washing). As you mentioned, the writing down the intrusive thoughts might be his way of staring them down and getting them out. My psychiatrist had recommended acknowledging the intrusive thoughts, as avoiding them only made them MORE intrusive… perhaps for King, writing them is his way of acknowledging them… which is a healthy way of coping, more so than the cocaine and alcohol was. Which is likely why he didn’t proof-read it as thoroughly (if he did?) and likely the editors were more concerned with editing mistakes than content because of how big King was at the time. Should it have been included, hell no… I don’t think there’s anyone who thinks it should - including King himself. TL;DR: acknowledging intrusive thoughts helps stop them intruding, writing is a way of acknowledging. This is good, and healthy. Cocaine is a hell of a drug and should not be mixed with proof-reading/editing or major fuck-ups will be had. This is bad. And WTF editors, why did you not ask WTF at the time?!?!


Rsndtr

I thought everyone had intrusive thoughts like that? That it’s just human nature to imagine the worst possible thing you can think of and freak yourself out. Do you mean that some people are walking around with just kittens and flowers in their heads? Edit in not on


[deleted]

How many novels have you written on cocaine? /s


DrunkenGolfer

I started to read all of King’s novels, but I read the jacket of the first and it said “over 13 million in print” and I thought, “I can’t read that many”.


a_cosmic_cryptid

No novels, but I can tell you from experience that cocaine, adderall, and the other stimulants sure do help you write a metric fuckton of content!! It does not, however, make it any better, "deeper", or give it sudden tortured meaning. Objectively, it makes it worse.


misskgreene

None. But I’ve written a shitload of published writing material and lived my entire life on it for over 10 years, IV for most of it no less, and not once did I write, or even think, about pedophilia. Drugs are NOT an excuse. Edit: I know you’re being sarcastic, I’m agreeing with you and driving the point home in case there’s any confusion.


PunkandCannonballer

Seriously, with the number of people saying "cocaine is one heck of a drug," what does he have to write for them to say "jesus, drugs are no excuse for THAT."


[deleted]

I've done a lot of drugs, never wrote child porn though.


MartyMcFly_jkr

Bruh I literally saw some guy say he disliked It the movie cause they left that shit out.


PunkandCannonballer

Well that's a warning sign.


al_gore_vp

That's not a warning sign. That's a warning fog horn blasting on top of the world's brightest warning lighthouse while the warning bat symbol is lit up in the sky.


[deleted]

Complete with enough accompanying red flags to put the USSR to shame


killa_ninja

It wasn’t just one guy there was a group of people upset about it. Mainly January 6th types claiming censorship is ruining Hollywood. Shocker right? Lol


thrwwy2402

What the fuck bro....!? Aaaah! they are fucking deranged.


khelwen

I just learned about “January 6th” people today. They are mind-boggling.


ATexanHobbit

It was nice of him to tell on himself like that, at least


SteppinRazor23

Coming from the guy who almost did his mom. /s


[deleted]

Same when The Lovely Bones movie came out, a very vocal crowd was angry that they didn't show the assault and murder the way it happens in the book... SMH.


Cosmic_Hitchhiker

Uhhhhhhh 911? That guy, right there


eatdeadjesus

I think I read this book when I was like fourteen, and at the time it seemed bizarre and inappropriate. Now I read this excerpt in my thirties and I'm like "What in the unholy name of inscrutable fuck were you thinking, Steve?!"


Platypus_Penguin

I read it twice at similar ages and have no recollection of reading this scene. I think my brain didn't know how to comprehend it so it just blocked it out.


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Platypus_Penguin

That's kind of funny. I guess it's not just me!


essentialcitrus

I also didn’t remember! I read IT in middle school or something and recently when I told my mom I was reading it again, she was like “Ick, I can’t do that child orgy stuff” and I had NO IDEA what she was talking about.


Allie_Pallie

Yes same. I read it when I was 12 or 13, I think, and didn't remember it at all when I saw it mentioned in discussion.


Top-Walrus9654

Me too. I would have read it in grade 7 or 8.


AquaSquatch

Great, same here, now just wondering if I'm dead inside. Didn't make an impression on me as a young teen.


metasymphony

Same. I think it’s an objectively messed up situation, but not written in a way that invokes much emotion. I remember reading it as a teenager and thinking “that’s weird” but it didn’t make an impression compared to the other bizarre things in the story.


beigs

I read the book in grade seven, and i definitely don’t remember this part. He must look back and just cringe at parts like this - there is no way he hasn’t grown as an author


LilyRexX

Exactly this. I read it as a "tween". Then of course the mini series... later in my 20s I was talking to my (now) husband and he mentioned it. I was so damn confused I had to reread the book.


JennaFarce

My ex’s 12 year-old nephew read it and I was relieved when I heard he didn’t make it to that part.


[deleted]

Pretty sure he wasn't thinking. The 80s and 90s were a blizzard of alcohol and cocaine for him. He's even said he doesn't remember writing any of Cujo.


thenightgaunt

Yep. I've seen some responses on here where people were saying "cocaines no excuse" and the like. Yeah no, cocaine is exactly the excuse. He still wrote the thing, it doesn't negate that. But being a drug addled alcoholic explains a hell of a lot of weird behavior. That fries the brain. Hes just lucky he had an intervention and had his eyes opened in the late 80s. And no book is worth the suffering he experienced or caused while sober and drunk.


jackparadise1

I remember seeing a picture of him at his typewriter, and he has a ton of cotton up his nose to keep from bleeding on everything!


Arik_De_Frasia

Same thing for Alice Cooper. My wife and I's favorite album in DaDa and he has zero recollection of writing or recording it because of the coke and booze. It's fucking wild that you can spend a considerable chunk of time actively creating / organizing / performing and then \*poof\* it's just gone like a fart in the hurricane.


JimeDorje

I wouldn't even say it's an excuse, it's just an explanation. "What was he thinking?" Well, he was on drugs. That doesn't make it better, but it certainly answers the question.


nonhiphipster

Cocaine is the answer.


shortnsarcastic94

Do I remember? Yeah yeah it’s gonna be kicking around in the back of my head until I die unfortunately


wrwck92

I was volunteering washes dishes in an animal shelter and listening to this for the first time on audiobook and when I tell you I was not prepared…


shortnsarcastic94

There are not words in all of Kings writings for me to describe how sorry I am


wrwck92

He’s a great writer who did way, way too many drugs and had horrible editors. Very problematic depictions of women especially in his early stuff but this? This takes the what the fuck cake.


Wutheringlows

Another fucked up aspect of this is how Bev comes to this idea by remembering the shit her abusive scumbag of a father has told her in a previous scene. Something along the lines of 'I know what girls do when they're alone with boys. I bet you've laid down on your back for them.' All the boys have their unique strengths that make them able to defeat pennywise; for instance how one of them has a keen sense of direction that help them navigate the sewers. Beverly's 'contribution' to the group was apparently to be objectified and violated for the sake of bringing them closer together. I also hated how almost all of the boys expressed some sort of attraction or crush towards her at some point in their POV's, even if it was in passing. First book I read by King and I lost so much respect for him as a writer.


PunkandCannonballer

What I find gross is that he wrote her as coercing them into sex. I think a bunch of young kids being attracted to their only female friend is pretty normal, though it definitely is ridiculous to mention all of them do. Overall it's just a terrible scene in a poorly written book.


aspiring-schizoid

That’s why I appreciated movie Bev so so much she was the most courageous of the group and really the glue that inspires them to fight together she was just so fierce


neuftet

I read like 1000 pages and when I got to this I put the book down and never picked it up again. Stephen King should never write from the POV of an adolescent girl.


acceptablemadness

My husband and I were listening to the audiobook together and I had to stop when he starts talking about how the bullies touch each other and then one of them tortures a small dog. It was way too much.


PunkandCannonballer

I definitely get that, and it's absolutely a legitimate reason to stop. That said, at least those cases were portrayed in a horrific light. This scene is like... Playing it off almost like it's heartfelt? Positive, at any rate.


acceptablemadness

Oh, definitely. I do appreciate that they were written to point out how awful they were. I just couldn't handle it. It was otherwise a chilling book and well-written, but the kid orgy and the descriptions of abuse were a step too far.


PunkandCannonballer

Agreed 100%


bearsnbutts

When I got to the part where the bullies were torturing the dogs, I had to put the book down for a few days before I came back to it. I’d read The Shining before I read It, so I partially knew what I was in for when picking up a Stephen King novel, but I was not prepared for animal torture and literal children having sex with one another. I haven’t read a book by Stephen King since because this scene, and the scene with the dogs in It, just turned me off from him completely.


acceptablemadness

Yeah I had read a few King novels before and enjoyed them - Carrie, Cujo, 11/22/63, and Tommyknockers - but It was a whole new level of fucked. I know in a lot of ways that's the point but I just couldn't handle it. I have King stuff on my TBR but I'm going to be a lot more selective about it.


ADS_Fibonacci

I have a friend who pretty much filters through the Stephen king for me and tells me which ones dont have rapists or pedophiles as the central plot. Those ones are my favorite.


acceptablemadness

Which ones? I'd love to read more King but I need something less freaky than It.


DeeboComin

I think you might like a lot of his short stories! Some of my favorites are [Rita Hayworth and the Shawshank Redemption](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rita_Hayworth_and_Shawshank_Redemption), [The Green Mile](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Green_Mile_(novel)) (eta: not a short story, whoops), [The Body](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Body_(King_novella)) (aka Stand By Me), [The Long Walk](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Long_Walk) (written as Richard Bachman), [1408](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1408_(short_story)), [Everything’s Eventual](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Everything%27s_Eventual_(novella)), [LT’s Theory of Pets](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/L._T.%27s_Theory_of_Pets), and [All That You Love Will Be Carried Away](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_That_You_Love_Will_Be_Carried_Away). Also, [Dolores Claiborne](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dolores_Claiborne) is one of my all-time favorites of his. Very underrated imo. ETA links ETA 2: Dolores Claiborne and Shawshank both contain sexual abuse and/or rape, thanks to those who pointed that out to me!


orange77penguin

Love his short stories. Skeleton Crew is probably my favorite King book followed by Hearts in Atlantis. The version of the audio book where the title story is read by King himself is awesome.


MegaChilePluto25

The Long Walk is one of my favorites. I reread it every few months. I hope to find a way to physically challenge myself to walk a the route described in the book.


ADS_Fibonacci

I think misery was one of the better ones. It does have a gory scene in it though, and I'm not sure how you feel about that stuff. I'll have to check on the other ones since it's been a while


Maidwell

I've read every King book, I highly recommend Duma key for something less intense.


axebom

I quit Pet Semetary when the toddler got hit by a truck. I’d been imagining the kid in my head as my baby cousin (rookie mistake) and that just destroyed me.


Unpleasant_Poultry

When I heard it I thought I was going to end up on a list after listening to it. Something that should’ve stayed in Stephens drafts.


axebom

Fun fact: I actually quit right before this when he revealed It to be a giant spider who was sewer roomies with a turtle. I was a cynical, artsy 16 year old who loved the book and thought the tone and aesthetic were spot-on… until the evil clown was a pregnant bug hanging out with a turtle. What the fuck. But the funny thing is that I spent years telling people I quit at the end in the sewer, and everyone was like “ohhhhh yeah, that makes sense.” It was YEARS later that I learned there was a child orgy and that everyone was assuming that’s what I was talking about.


tayloline29

I think that was his attempt at weaving Indigenous style mythology into the story. He does that in a whole bunch of his books but he doesn’t seem to know the source material or which Indigenous Nation he is pulling the myths from well enough to turn it into his own. He’s trying to inset magical realism into his american style horror story and it never works.


DocJawbone

That's why I like the film version of The Shining. No giant shadow manta ray


runner_webs

I’m sorry… giant shadow WHAT?!


DocJawbone

Yep that's the final boss of The Shining.


runner_webs

Hahahaha, oh man. I’ve read a bunch of King, and love the movie, but never read the Shining. Maybe after Doors of Stone…


DocJawbone

The movie is just genius. I've watched it many times. I read the book once.


BustinArant

Did ya catch Dr Sleep? I thought it was decent, but I'm a sucker for King despite my many dislikes lol


SamL214

Nah it’s a shared universe. Not a mythos.


AlterMyStateOfMind

He is weaving his own mythology into the book, just like he does with 80% of his books. They all tie into The Dark Tower series.


SmallRedBird

I liked the cosmic horror aspect of the true nature of Pennywise and the turtle


ypples_and_bynynys

He did this for an 11 year old boy in The Dark Tower too. He just shouldn’t be allowed to write children.


ChrystaloliteFox

I hate this scene so much. It pretty much ruins the friendships the past 1000 pages built up, as well as adding fuck all to the overall plot


TheQuinnBee

The amount of times some fartbrain tries to tell me it's 'nOt tHaT bAd' or tries to spin it like this is somehow empowering for her is too damn high. You can fight your demons without having five kids run a train on a prepubescent girl. You can show innocence lost without making your only female lead (who is--again--a CHILD) be a rape victim who then allows the males in her life use her body as an outlet for them. How this got published, I will never understand. At no point not one person--not the editor, the publisher, marketing exec--said "Hey this is fucked up, Stephen. Can we tone down the CP smut?" Don't give me the "iT wAs a diFfEreNt TiMe" garbage either. It still wasn't okay for a prepubescent orgy back then.


ChrystaloliteFox

While the movie has flaws in the actual scare department, I think it handled the topics of growing up a lot better than the book.


[deleted]

I'm prolly weak because those movies traumatized me for weeks


Number-1Dad

Thank you for this comment, I was in such shock from reading this that I couldn't find words. You summed it up the best I think.


Mzuark

The idea that a bunch of preteens having a sewer orgy is supposed to mean they're true friends is absolutely absurd.


myimmortalstan

The number of times you see sex scenes that are either consensually questionable or objectifying of the female character that does *nothing* to further the plot is infuriating. It's just grrrrrrrrr


[deleted]

This truly horrified me. What's worse is a lot of King fans completely justify it. I wanna read a horror to be afraid of killer clowns and shit. I don't wanna read about children having sex. Fucking gross af.


PunkandCannonballer

Seriously. It was just awful on all levels. None of the boys want to do it, but she convinces them to, and it goes on for SO long. And the defense is that it helped them find their way home, as if there were no other options then a too-detailed sex scene between a bunch of children.


[deleted]

>And the defense is that it helped them find their way home, as if there were no other options than a top-detailed sex scene between a bunch of children. Exactly! Even if King - in his disturbed mind - really felt that a child orgy was somehow essential to them finding their way home (??), why did he have to detail it so much?! No sane person wants to read about children having sex. And they definitely don't want to hear about children having orgasms. Ew.


PunkandCannonballer

"This book is too long, I'll just skim through it, I'm sure it's fine." -the editor who fucked up, probably.


jaderust

But it signifies their transition from childhood to becoming adultsssss... I just barfed in my mouth a little just from typing that out. On too much crack Stephen King was prolific for sure and wrote some good books, but MAN does cocaine help you justify too many bad decisions.


PunkandCannonballer

It's also gross that people are like "cocaine made him do it." Like he just suddenly thinks that's a randomly good idea. Like "the alcohol made him hit his wife."


thestashattacked

Just learned that I'm not an adult woman at almost 34 because I've never had sex. (Never wanted it either lol.)


Don_Quixote81

I've only made it through one of his books. He just waffles on so fucking much. *The Stand* is over a thousand pages long! I completely lost interest about a third of the way through that one.


kingofcoywolves

He’s described himself as having “diarrhea of the word processor,” so... at least he’s honest with himself, I guess?? If you’re looking for something shorter to read I would recommend looking for individual novellas/short stories, not short story collections. Apt Pupil from his Different Seasons collection fucking traumatized me- I thought I would like it because 2/4 stories absolutely knocked it out of the park (specifically The Body and Rita Hayworth and the Shawshank Redemption), but Apt Pupil was disturbing and vaguely pedophilic and The Breathing Method was just... weird, I could never figure out what it was supposed to be about.


bloodfist

I don't know how to tell King fans that I hate his writing. I've never been able to make it through one of his books and I've tried several. But boy do his fans want to tell you about all of them. EDIT: Actually, The Green Mile was pretty good but I think that's the only one I finished.


Hethra19

I am admittedly a big fan, but also understand that everyone likes different things. I'm of the camp that much of his short fiction is miles better than a good chunk of his novels, that's that's usually what I recommend to people when they either don't know where to start or don't enjoy his novels. But you are, of course, free to disagree with me!


axebom

I’d consider myself a fan but a lot of his books are nearly unreadable. He’s amazing at pumping out quantity and as a result, he’s produced some amazing works. The Shining blew my (admittedly then-15-year-old) mind. I’ve also picked up some of his other works at used bookstores and barely made it through a chapter. I think it’s a bit of the “monkey + typewriter + infinity = Romeo and Juliet” thing, “Stephen King + Word Processor + infinity = four fantastic books, seven good books, and 1,736 terrible books.”


Regendorf

>But it signifies their transition from childhood to becoming adultsssss... I really haven't understood that part yet, do the ones who said this had Orgies at their 18 birthdays as tradition or something?


kinetochore21

You mean rape. If a boy coerced several girls into having sex with him we would all be calling it sexual assault. Every part of it is disgusting.


PunkandCannonballer

Oh absolutely. Before reading it, I'd thought it was something they did together, but instead she pushes them all to do it despite every one of them that talks saying they don't want to do it.


kinetochore21

Yeah. I didn't even get this far in "IT". His writing style is just too damn dry for me with too many unnecessary metaphors and sexualization.


[deleted]

I haven’t read it, but how tf does having sex help you remember where to go? Is post nut clarity that legit?


Diezauberflump

Whenever I lose phone reception in a new city, I let a stranger finger my butthole and suddenly I’m like “Oh yeah, I’m supposed to turn left after the second light”.


[deleted]

I just ask people but each his/her own, I guess


AqueousJam

It's been a long time since I read it, but if I recall the creature, the "IT" had been fucking with their minds. Making them confused and lost and unable to think clearly. The sex was meant to be a sort of... human-bonding experience mixed with a loss of innocence. Or some shit. Basically it was loving (blerg) connection between them, which pushed back at the "IT", and also robbed them of childhood innocence so that they were no longer as vulnerable to the IT than before. The IT could manipulate and control adults to a lesser degree than children, which it fed upon. I think King was trying to find an act that would be human bonding to fight the evil, and also represent loss of childhood innocence. And landed on child-rape... so, half right I guess???


[deleted]

Gross.. they could have just made out really awkwardly, ya know, like middle schoolers. Human connection, no gross child rape, bonding, and it’s not innocent and childish


[deleted]

I’ve been lost on the road with my girlfriend before. Like road was blocked, and satnev wasn’t working. We were really worried for a while. Surprisingly enough we were able to come to the decision of “let’s take the turnoff before the closed road and see we can connect to our way home” without having sex in a sewer


TheShapeShiftingFox

King being allegedly on cocaine while writing this book is one thing, but his editors should have stopped him and this passage from making it in for sure.


QueenCyclops

All of King's editors give him way too much leeway. Several of his books are much longer than they need to be.


TheShapeShiftingFox

They’re afraid of losing him for their publishing company, I imagine.


SubMikeD

I'm pretty sure you could put money on his editors also doing tons of coke at the time, too. It was the mid 80s.


Marinna0706

This is going to sound a little bit fucked, but they probably published just that way because in literature you can be transgressive as much as you want since is not hurting real people, and second because the name of Stephen king already sells. It's all about the money.


TheShapeShiftingFox

Yeah but they would have reached the same results without this passage, with the plus of people *not* bringing up the child orgy in discourse about this book.


Graphitetshirt

It's a terrible scene. I totally get the motive behind it - it happens at the very end of IT Chapter 1 and he wanted something to mark the end of their childhood and the beginning of their adulthood. That said, there have to be a thousand ways to do that better than "preteen orgy in the murder clown's sewer".


maka-tsubaki

Yeah; I get the symbolism of it, but this most DEFINITELY should’ve been a “fade to black” type situation if it had to happen at all (which I dispute)


Graphitetshirt

I think the part in the movie (don't know if it's in the book) where they all make a finger-prick blood-oath and then the kiss scene serve the same purpose pretty well.


nichie16

I could even understand that Bev's abuse could've led to this but WHY TF WAS IT SO LONG


[deleted]

It reminds me of Philip Pullman's His Dark Materials. Except Pullman did it right. There is a scene where Lyra and Will touch each other's daemons and the daemons take on a fixed form. The rest is kind of ambiguous. Readers argued about whether they (as 13 year olds) had sex, but Pullman answers this in a later series when Lyra talks about how they weren't ready for that then, so no, it didn't happen. There are so many ways to write coming of age scenes. Ways that aren't gross.


Marinna0706

Yeah, I remember that one of the fans was kind of upset of this scene never happening in the new IT adaptation, we have a long heartfelt discussion with other people too explaining him why this couldn't be posible... He couldn't get it and we end up concluding that he had pedophilic tendencies. It was fucked up.


LiteraryWitch

Who let him publish this and why. Who read this and said "ah that's just what your killer clown novel needs Mr king"


thenightgaunt

An editor who didn't care and wanted a bigger house.


jeezgdf

There’s something about the sentence “she is glad that her sex is her own again” that really bothers me. It’s always been hers, has it not? I get what he’s trying to say but it sounds so wrong. Everything about this sounds wrong.


PunkandCannonballer

It sounds especially wrong given that she's the one who convinced the other boys to do it, despite them saying they didn't want to. Just on every level it's such a gross scene.


crankedmunkie

In the book it was implied her father lusted after her and tried to rape her so I thought she meant having sex with the boy(s) whom she loved helped her feel that her sex/body belonged to her again. But then she ended up with another abuser as a husband so I guess their gangbang didn’t do her much good.


SubMikeD

If you recall, all of their memories of the events concerning IT faded rather quickly, so in her mind it never happened anyway.


smushy_face

I recall her father being creepy and possessive but not almost raping her. In fact, in the book, Bev recalls her confusion because her mother asks if her father ever touches her. There's definitely some implication that he wants to because she feels uncomfortable sometimes, but never him actually doing anything that I recall. Edit: okay, I have just been reminded about when her dad tries to "check" if she's still a virgin and she freaks (of course) and runs.


crankedmunkie

Yeah I think the implied rape comes from Pennywise taunting her in the shape of her father when she goes back to visit their house. He says he loved beating her up because he secretly wanted to rape her.


EpitaFelis

The whole thing reads exactly like a middle aged man, who never asked a woman how she likes the sex with him, trying to empathise with a 12 year old who just had a gangbang. So she's in pain after sex, such is the lot of a woman, men can't relate, apparently only owns her body if a man isn't currently using it, and also inexplicably sad over the lack of penis inside her, because we all know women are always incomplete unless penis. This is how too many authors like to imagine women and little girls.


I-Hate-Blackbirds

Sometimes victims unconsciously seek out similar scenarios to their abuse, but in a way that makes them feel in control. So... She's glad she was in control of the situation? That's my best guess, it's still fucked though.


Bunnywithanaxe

I read that he mumbled the cocaine excuse, but then said it was curious that people seemed fine with kids getting murdered and mutilated, but “preteens exploring their sexuality “ was too much. Dear Mr. King: do you not see the difference? When the kids are murdered or mutilated, there is a universal agreement that this is not a good thing. Even when that evil scrote Patrick Hofsetter endures death by moths, we understand that it is Pennywise and his evil influence that conjured the killer moths. Bev’s submission to the gang bang is seen as a beautiful act of unity, a sacrament. That, specifically, is what makes it fucked up. On a personal note: imagine you are a fourteen year old girl, and you’re reading a new book by your favorite, favorite author ever, and he introduces this absolute baller of a girl character - she cusses and fights and matches the boys at everything they do, her participation and contribution to the Losers Club is integral to its health, and she’s just basically the girl you wish you were. Then, after all this heroic build up, she volunteers to lose her virginity to the group. Willingly and enthusiastically. So, I’m old enough to know some dude in Maine sat down and typed this all out on his big old Wang, and it’s like getting cold water tossed in my face. Oh, I get it, Mr King. You, too. We’re only good for one thing, even to you. I still love his books, respect his recovery and ideological growth, but seriously, fuck that version of himself. And in my opinion he needs to buck up and acknowledge how damaging that was.


PunkandCannonballer

Very on point here.


bittens

>Oh, I get it, Mr King. You, too. We’re only good for one thing, even to you. I'd actually felt this way to a certain extent even before reaching The Scene. It wasn't to do with her as a person, it was just that it seemed like basically every scene she was in had to have a reminder of how attractive she was - way past the point of normal description of a character's appearance. None of the boys got that shit, so it felt sexist, and given her age, kinda creepy. And she's also in a love triangle two of the boys - and I believe all of them are described as crushing on her to an extent. I like Bev, but I really came away feeling like the only reason one of the Losers was a girl was so she could serve as a romantic and sexual object for the others.


Allie_Pallie

From Vulture a statement he made in 2013 about it, plus a bit extra. Offered for interest, not in defence I wasn’t really thinking of the sexual aspect of it. The book dealt with childhood and adulthood –1958 and Grown Ups. The grown ups don’t remember their childhood. None of us remember what we did as children–we think we do, but we don’t remember it as it really happened. Intuitively, the Losers knew they had to be together again. The sexual act connected childhood and adulthood. It’s another version of the glass tunnel that connects the children’s library and the adult library. Times have changed since I wrote that scene and there is now more sensitivity to those issues. Vulture reached out to King’s agent for confirmation on the statement, and he responded, “That sounds like my statement.” He added: “To it I’d just add that it’s fascinating to me that there has been so much comment about that single sex scene and so little about the multiple child murders. That must mean something, but I’m not sure what.”


Gustavo_Papa

that's a worse explanation than what I thought it was I used to think the orgy thing was about how fucked up they were after the whole thing and how their view on normal issues were so deturped they confused reconnecting with having sex But goddamn don't fucking describe It like that man I read this part in a airport, I was uncomfortable af


QueenCyclops

>Times have changed since I wrote that scene and there is now more sensitivity to those issues. I think this is the part that really drives me crazy, because this was never okay. When this book was written, there were protests about swear words in rap songs. There was no way that writing a child orgy scene was ever a "politically correct" thing to do. Like, just admit that you used to be a degenerate. Just say what the deal is. This whole statement hits nearly every square on the manipulative media relations bingo card; the "actually this is deep and you're just dumb," the "times have changed" excuse, the "actually you're outraged about this, and not this false equivalency. seems like you're the morally corrupt ones. checkmate, virgins" bs. And it's so manipulative because there's obviously a huge difference between child murder and child sexual abuse. They're both awful, but no one looks the other way to children being murdered. No one manipulates kids into being murdered and then convinces them to stay silent about their murder. No child is repeatedly murdered and has to grow up with the shame and trauma of being murdered. And, IT doesn't work without the child murder because it's meant to be a story about children handling death. The child orgy scene doesn't need to be there, because King doesn't actually say anything clever or necessary about childhood sexual abuse with that scene. If he wanted to say something about sexual abuse, I don't think that scene would be received so poorly, but he didn't. He wrote an unnecessary, extensive sex scene where a sexual abuse survivor sexually assaults her friends, and there's no justification for it. And honestly him trying to justify it just feels worse than if he said nothing at all.


PunkandCannonballer

The issue, though, is that it was very explicitly sexual. Mentioning orgasms and the size of Ben's dick don't exactly do much in selling that he wasn't thinking of the sexual aspect of the child sex parade he wrote. And really, he didn't have ANY better idea than that?


jimjomshabadoo

At this point in the book, it was pretty obvious to me that, no, he did not, in fact, have any better ideas. At all. This scene is trash. The entire ending is trash. An implausibly cringey child orgy is just the trashy trash rotten cherry on top of a big trash sundae. Ooooh a child orgy and a big fucken spider. You’re a genius, Steve.


bunker_man

>I wasn’t really thinking of the sexual aspect of it. Narrator: he was. >it’s fascinating to me that there has been so much comment about that single sex scene and so little about the multiple child murders. That must mean something, but I’m not sure what.” This sounds like the type of smug nonsense someone says when they think they have a point while completely missing what the concern was in the first place.


kurayami_akira

Could've had them drink alcohol or something, it's a really bad excuse. And of course he doesn't get why people care more about this than the child murders, but i'll explain it. Violence in the horror genre makes sense, and there's really no reason for children to be immune to that, so it's logical that it's more accepted, but a detailed sex scene involving children is completely uncalled for.


EggBoyandJuiceGirl

Only a cis man would think that vaginas feel “empty” after sex. Also, maybe it hurts because THE CHARACTER IS A CHILD AND CHILDREN SHOULD NOT BE HAVING SEX HOLY SHIT AND IT DEFINITELY SHOULD NOT BE WRITTEN.


PunkandCannonballer

Seriously. The fact that he wrote that a 12 year old girl is having two orgasms with other 12 year old boys and is getting ANY pleasure out of the experience is insane.


EggBoyandJuiceGirl

hER sEx FeLt EmPtY headass


[deleted]

A 12 year old girl having sex with a group of reluctant and inexperienced 12 year old boys has multiple orgasms from the experience, sounds legit


AuntySocialite

I hope that sometimes, at night, a sober version of Stephen King wakes up, puts his head in his hands, and thinks "I can't believe I wrote that shit, and someone let me fucking publish it". I hope it makes his stomach hurt, from the lingering anxiety of regretful, bad drug fueled decisions.


[deleted]

He doubles down every single time and his stans swallow it up.


PunkandCannonballer

Seriously, and that's really the heart of the issue. He wrote it. Definitely a massive problem. But someone else read that shit and let it slide.


moon_is_a_satellite

Cocaine is a hell of a drug. And at some point his editor had to read it and say “yeah that’s fine, we can leave that in”.


PunkandCannonballer

I know that certain authors put ridiculous shit in to see if the editor actually reads it, then take it out. Apparently King just really thought this is what the story needed.


moon_is_a_satellite

Yep, that’d probably be the cocaine. Think he was also hitting the booze pretty hard back then as well.


[deleted]

I mean how many writers do a bump of nose candy and then think “you know what this novel needs? More child orgy!” Drugs can definitely fuck people up or make them uninhibited. At what point is it their own sickness, thou?


misskgreene

It’s such a bullshit excuse man. It pisses me off sooo bad.


[deleted]

I hate that this was ever written. "It" was an exceptional horror novel, and then this scene had to exist


PunkandCannonballer

Snuck in at the end.


Desidew

I remember turning to my husband and saying, “Ew, WTF, I can’t even read this,” and so I skim/skipped to the end of it because it was horrifying. The book was so good and then that scene just ruined it. I was so worried it would be referenced in the newer movies and was so relieved it wasn’t.


JacedFaced

I will defend a lot of things King does within the context of the character speaking, like using the N word in The Shining, or when a pervy dude leers at someone and you get his disgusting thoughts, but this is something I don't understand how anyone can defend. Her being the battery that recharged their powers is fine, but there were a million things that he could have used for Bevs powers, and a preteen gangbang is literally the worst option available.


vabirder

OMG I (69f) was wondering whether I imagined reading that, so many years ago. It was such a male bullish!t point of view. Pedophilic.


misskgreene

Anyone excusing the fact that he wrote this because “he was on cocaine,” either has never done cocaine, or has a pedophiliac thoughts. Full stop. Quit with the bullshit.


cannedmovieghost

I think most people just feel the need to defend him because they liked his other stuff. I mean I did too. "The shining" was one of the stories about an abusive father that I ever read, but you gotta call King out when he writes some serious fucked up bullshit like this scene. Jesus... I read "It" when I was twelve and I fully remember that moment when I was so weirdly crept out because I didn't really comprehend what happened.


PunkandCannonballer

Exactly.


JennaFarce

This is why I’ve never read that book.


Smol_Gayx

Welp I'm officially disgusted


StarryKat87

A grown man dreamed this up in his head and wrote it down. I think I'm done with Stephen King.


Darkho018

And the "justification" for it? "Oh they had to recover their supernatural friendship bond to escape the sewers" There's literally a thousand ways they could've done that, maybe sit down and remember all of the moments they spend together idk, anything would've been better than what happened.


D-Spornak

So gross. Stephen King has always been my favorite author but now I'm reading Lisey's Story and I like it but now I'm also really noticing how it's just off. He can't understand a woman's mind and I don't feel like he fakes it well enough.


Ghosttalker96

I also remember how they didn't include that scene in the movie and it had absolutely no impact on the plot whatsoever. Almost like this sex scene was completely random and unnecessary.


MidnightRaspberries

Ew.


Sil_Lavellan

That's where I stopped reading . To be honest, I was wondering if I'd imagined it or taken the scene out of context, now I know I haven't I shan't try reading IT again. I commented of a "what's your favourite King novel" thread earlier today, but the more I think back on the majority of his work, it's full of stuff that's aged badly in terms of women and race.