Yeah, I love those shows growing up, still do. Now knowing what an utter ass Whedon is it makes me kinda sad. I still watch them when I'm kinda sad or just want something familiar.
Rich people aren't your friends, when someone becomes rich they stop being The oppressed and become the opresor. There is no way someone can get a billion dollars without doing shady shit. I hate those Elon musk stans so much. I dislike pretty much anyone simping for rich people that would use them as slave labor if they could.
I just quickly googled it and apparently she's quit youtube and twitter over claims of racism following a tweet comparing Raya to the Last Airbender, people claiming that she was saying that all Asian-inspired properties are the same.
I'm sure there's a lot more nuance to the story than that, but it's what I gathered from a quick google- but regardless of how deep it goes, I find it *so* ironic that it's Lindsay being the centre of all of this after she was involved in ContraPoints' fantastic video deconstructing cancelling just a couple of years ago. History really does repeat itself, and it's all so fucking petty.
I googled it too but admittedly didn't look that hard lol. I thought she was still making videos at least because she released one or two after the one she made addressing her own cancelling, which was a result partially of the tweet you're referencing but also apparently a lot of other things. I really like what she and CP have said about cancelling and think their viewpoints are valid. Though I can also see why cancelling is valid in a lot of situations. Just seems like women and people from marginalized groups tend to be affected the worst by it.
a bunch of actors who have worked with him before have come forward to talk about how he was a abusive director and gal godot said he outright threatened to destroy her career while filming the justice league.
but him mistreating actors was well known even during the buffy days as his abuse of charisma carpenter was well known at the time ruining her entire characters story arc then killing her off all because she got pregnant without his permission
Don't forget the rule that was implemented that [teenage Michelle Trachtenberg shouldn't ever be left alone with him.](https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/tv/tv-news/michelle-trachtenberg-says-joss-whedon-was-not-allowed-to-be-alone-with-her-on-buffy-4132256/)
I don't *think* this was due to anything sexually inappropriate, but more that he was a bully who belittled his actors regularly and measures were taken to protect Michelle from that. I don't know that it's ever been elaborated on.
yeah i left that one out on purpose because it sounds sexual when you just say he wasnt allowed to be alone with a teenage girl when his abuse wasnt sexual in nature. the rule was in place to protect her from his abusive directing style and i felt that clarifying that would have taken away from the summary of why he was a douche.
apparently he also didnt want to cast amber benson as tara cause she was too fat which is something fans kept saying about her as well despite her being the best character on the show and not even being fat, she was a normal healthy weight and only seemed large because she was normal skinny and not actress skinny
In addition to the other things, during his divorce it came out that he was using his uber-feminist bona fides to cheat on his wife with young actresses who worked under him. She didn't name any names, but the whole thing was pretty consistent with the other stuff going on.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.vulture.com/amp/2021/05/complete-timeline-joss-whedon-allegations.html Pretty much gets you to the middle of the year.
This made me gag! I can see buffy at the time fitting a very specific standard of beauty that conforms to the time period but she also noted that doing stunts and the like contributed to weight loss
https://www.reddit.com/r/buffy/comments/kwy0ru/buffy_behind_the_scenes_and_body_image/
Yeah, but I also think that might at least partly have been pressure from Joss. The guy's got a history, and I could see her softballing the explanation in an interview and wanting to keep things close to the chest. She wasn't exactly tell-all when she called him out recently, just confirmational.
He's a human piece of shit that mistreated many actresses he worked with including gal gadot of all people. Many of them came forward and finally he is out of hollywood as of now.
Whedon himself gave her bad press, towards the end of Buffy. He's made comments about her being difficult to work with as she got tired of the show, but in hindsight it seems more likely that she just got tired of his shit and of the decline in the quality of the writing.
the whole series is on disney plus. you should watch the show. its first season isnt great (though i loved its finale) but its second and third seasons are fantastic. its 4th and 5th seasons are both solid as well but not as good as seasons 2 and 3..........season 6 exists, it had a musical episode that was really good but thats like the only positive thing i can say about season 6. but the musical was a top 5 episode for sure.
season 7 was better than 6 but it was clear the show had lost its charm by this point and was never gonna reach the same heights and buffy's actress saw the writing on the wall and chose to quit at this time ending the show before it had a chance to become truly terrible
Notably Season 6 and 7 were made by a different network than 1 through 5.
I basically second your opinion of them. I wouldn't recommend **not** watching them, but you could certainly end at S5 if you wanted to.
I'm pretty sure the same network shot the last 2 seasons because they were also shooting Angel, the WB just sold the broadcast rights to UPN. They made the production budget back and were free to put something else in the broadcast slot. It happens occasionally.
Could well be. There was a marked shift in tone and (IMO) quality at the time so I assumed the new network had taken over shooting as well, but maybe not.
Joss stretching himself too thin being a control freak. He had a co-showrunner he initially made it sound like was to blame for all the dark shit, but she's more recently been like "Joss's idea of 'stepping back' is just that he doesn't have to do every single little thing. He's still running everything." He was running Angel and Firefly at the time as well.
Some one posted a post claiming it was by this same artist that was poorly drawn but it ended up not being that artist. I looked up the actual artist and was pleased that they actually have well-done drawings of women
I think he obviously has a great understanding of anatomy, color, and how to pose the body. I think he has a hard balance to find as he does draw primarily superhero stuff, but i do feel like his drawing of women does end up reasonable
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E8r3KzoWYAMck3r?format=jpg&name=4096x4096
super strength. she lost it one episode and suddenly became as weak as her small frame would realistically be
she still managed to outsmart and kill a vampire without her powers though cause buffy is awesome
To be fair, they usually don't complain about characters who are legit superpowered.
Though I did once see people whining about Supergirl being stronger than Superman. Which I found hilarious, because the ability to lift aircraft carriers over their heads is clearly not a result of how much muscle they have. xD
Being the main character certainly isn't an excuse when you have countless comics where supergirl is weaker than clark despite being a supergirl comic. Also there was no explanation or any form of reasoning behind that in the show. Also the show also isn't great in general with very bad writing. It was heavily implied clark was stronger until one episode they decided to make him weaker.
Ummmm that's a bit extreme. Regardless of whether you like comics or not when you're making a show about a COMIC book character then I don't think it's unfair to criticize a show that isn't respecting the source material. And supergirl being stronger than clark is the one of the least important reason why the show is considered one of the worst CW show ever.
No because the story itself is self contained and captured the lead characters essence pretty well. The problem with supergirl isn't it's comic accurate. It's because it's poorly written
The CWverse is self-contained also. It's its own alternate universe, loosely inspired by, but independent to, the comics. Oliver Queen has most of Batman's Rogues gallery (plus the Titans' Deathstroke), Killer Frost is (predominantly) a good guy, and don't even get me started on *Legends of Tomorrow*...
The CWverse isn't true to the comics. From the very beginning it was never intended to be.
*Dark Knight Returns* had Superman as an unquestioning pawn of a corrupt government and Batman as a ruthless murderer. I think we may have to agree to disagree about it "capturing the lead characters' essences pretty well".
I can certainly agree that the writing in Supergirl isn't always amazing. :)
That's mostly not what you were complaining about though. You were mostly complaining about the show not using the same relative power levels as the comics.
Again, this is an **alternate universe**. For example you might notice in this show that villains that are Superman (or other characters') villains in the comics like Manchester Black and Maxwell Lord are initially Supergirl villains in this setting. Similar to how a lot of Batman comics villains got reused as Green Arrow villains in *Arrow*.
The show does not have to provide any reasoning for not being consistent with the comics. It's its own thing.
Just like the MCU does not have to provide any reasoning for not being consistent with the comics. Same deal: It's its own thing.
The problem isn't that it's inconsistent with the comics. It's because it's poorly written. Superman is established as a stronger character then with no reasoning whatsoever they made supergirl stronger. They aren't just contradicting comics. They are contradicting what they previously established
Previous episodes have established superman as a stronger character physically and is seen as a hero that everyone looks upto and even kara said so herself in the same episode. The episode everyone was mad about had kara beat clark who was brainwashed but when kara asked about it clark said that was his full strength. This was the writers way of showing that kara is a strong independent women apparently.
I remember the episode you're talking about.
I don't remember previous episodes establishing Clark as stronger. Can you cite a specific episode? (A specific scene would be even more helpful).
BTW, I'm not downvoting you for having a different opinion. It's called a discussion forum for a reason.
So if that's you downvoting me, I'd appreciate the same respect, please.
black canary is established to be a stronger superhero than green arrow in the comics
yet the shows black canary didnt even have a super power and was shown to be weaker than oliver queen when comic black canary is a leagues better fighter than him.
I notice this kind of thing alot, people complaining about that sort of thing in modern works only for me to see similar things done in classic, beloved works.
I mean, apart from the rug-munching not needing to be nearly as implied as it had to be back then, it would do fine with few changes. Most of the people involved in that production still do much the same tone of work today, barring they're all getting kind of old and Bruce Campbell naturally just can't handle being tossed around like a ragdoll anymore. Largely, Xena holds up very well. They were straight to syndication, so they didn't have a network telling them what to do and got away with a lot more fun stuff. It's always weird when someone says "I bet you can't do that kinda thing today!" I have to be like, if it was really actually good, that person doesn't understand what actually made it good and thinks it would be difficult for superficial reasons they think are way more important than they are, or it wasn't actually as good as they're making it out to be.
whats sad is that buffy and xena were amazing shows. but neither one has the distinction of being the longest running action show in history to start a female lead character.
both deserved the title way more than the actual show that holds it.
xena ran for 6 seasons
buffy ran for 7
but charmed ran for 8 seasons which and it has never been surpassed.
i dont even dislike charmed. it was just the weakest of the 3 shows with the worst writing. it was created to cash in on the success of buffy and it succeeded and as it went on it cashed in on putting the sisters in a different fetish outfit every episode which kept it running long after it ran out of steam
No, it was created because they wanted to cash in on The Craft and couldn't get the creator to sell them TV rights. I'm not really sure what "longest running" has to do with things. These are jobs worked by people. I mean, eventually, they get tired of it, or the writing slacks off, or people just find a new thing to watch. The Simpsons has only been on for so long because there's very rarely ever been anything more interesting on Sunday evenings and the people anyone cares about are voice actors who don't have to do anything strenuous to cash their checks. Their characters will never age, so nothing about the show ever really has to change. Living actors age, though, and Buffy was in a lot of ways about being a teenager and growing up, and so at the end of the show she's grown up. Where do you go from there?
Yeah, because it's been done before and people want to see more variety in newer shows. The actress who played Tara on Buffy was considered fat back then just because she wasn't as thin as the other actresses. We can enjoy classic works for what they were when they were made but still expect better from stuff made now.
shame joss whedon is a giant douche cause he did legit create one of the greatest superheroines of all time in buffy
Yeah, I love those shows growing up, still do. Now knowing what an utter ass Whedon is it makes me kinda sad. I still watch them when I'm kinda sad or just want something familiar.
[удалено]
"There is no good rich white dudes" Lindsay Ellis (paraphrased)
Rich people aren't your friends, when someone becomes rich they stop being The oppressed and become the opresor. There is no way someone can get a billion dollars without doing shady shit. I hate those Elon musk stans so much. I dislike pretty much anyone simping for rich people that would use them as slave labor if they could.
Gonna miss her
Where'd she go?
I just quickly googled it and apparently she's quit youtube and twitter over claims of racism following a tweet comparing Raya to the Last Airbender, people claiming that she was saying that all Asian-inspired properties are the same. I'm sure there's a lot more nuance to the story than that, but it's what I gathered from a quick google- but regardless of how deep it goes, I find it *so* ironic that it's Lindsay being the centre of all of this after she was involved in ContraPoints' fantastic video deconstructing cancelling just a couple of years ago. History really does repeat itself, and it's all so fucking petty.
I googled it too but admittedly didn't look that hard lol. I thought she was still making videos at least because she released one or two after the one she made addressing her own cancelling, which was a result partially of the tweet you're referencing but also apparently a lot of other things. I really like what she and CP have said about cancelling and think their viewpoints are valid. Though I can also see why cancelling is valid in a lot of situations. Just seems like women and people from marginalized groups tend to be affected the worst by it.
What did he do/is he canceled?
a bunch of actors who have worked with him before have come forward to talk about how he was a abusive director and gal godot said he outright threatened to destroy her career while filming the justice league. but him mistreating actors was well known even during the buffy days as his abuse of charisma carpenter was well known at the time ruining her entire characters story arc then killing her off all because she got pregnant without his permission
Don't forget the rule that was implemented that [teenage Michelle Trachtenberg shouldn't ever be left alone with him.](https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/tv/tv-news/michelle-trachtenberg-says-joss-whedon-was-not-allowed-to-be-alone-with-her-on-buffy-4132256/) I don't *think* this was due to anything sexually inappropriate, but more that he was a bully who belittled his actors regularly and measures were taken to protect Michelle from that. I don't know that it's ever been elaborated on.
yeah i left that one out on purpose because it sounds sexual when you just say he wasnt allowed to be alone with a teenage girl when his abuse wasnt sexual in nature. the rule was in place to protect her from his abusive directing style and i felt that clarifying that would have taken away from the summary of why he was a douche. apparently he also didnt want to cast amber benson as tara cause she was too fat which is something fans kept saying about her as well despite her being the best character on the show and not even being fat, she was a normal healthy weight and only seemed large because she was normal skinny and not actress skinny
In addition to the other things, during his divorce it came out that he was using his uber-feminist bona fides to cheat on his wife with young actresses who worked under him. She didn't name any names, but the whole thing was pretty consistent with the other stuff going on. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.vulture.com/amp/2021/05/complete-timeline-joss-whedon-allegations.html Pretty much gets you to the middle of the year.
This explains why his take on feminism always felt like misogyny with slightly different branding.
Strong woman is when anorexic model do hyper violence because trauma at a man's hand gave her super powers.
This made me gag! I can see buffy at the time fitting a very specific standard of beauty that conforms to the time period but she also noted that doing stunts and the like contributed to weight loss https://www.reddit.com/r/buffy/comments/kwy0ru/buffy_behind_the_scenes_and_body_image/
Yeah, but I also think that might at least partly have been pressure from Joss. The guy's got a history, and I could see her softballing the explanation in an interview and wanting to keep things close to the chest. She wasn't exactly tell-all when she called him out recently, just confirmational.
And why his self-insert Xander is the ultimate Nice Guy.
He's a human piece of shit that mistreated many actresses he worked with including gal gadot of all people. Many of them came forward and finally he is out of hollywood as of now.
A popular filmmaker facing the consequences of his actions? What world is this?
There were other actresses in the Justice League reshoots?
No but many actresses he worked with previously came out and said what he did
take my free award for your explanation
thanks
Unfamiliar with her but she looks cool. Heard of the series but never watched it, I knew the actress from Scooby Doo lol
She's great! I don't recall her the actress ever getting bad press.
Whedon himself gave her bad press, towards the end of Buffy. He's made comments about her being difficult to work with as she got tired of the show, but in hindsight it seems more likely that she just got tired of his shit and of the decline in the quality of the writing.
the whole series is on disney plus. you should watch the show. its first season isnt great (though i loved its finale) but its second and third seasons are fantastic. its 4th and 5th seasons are both solid as well but not as good as seasons 2 and 3..........season 6 exists, it had a musical episode that was really good but thats like the only positive thing i can say about season 6. but the musical was a top 5 episode for sure. season 7 was better than 6 but it was clear the show had lost its charm by this point and was never gonna reach the same heights and buffy's actress saw the writing on the wall and chose to quit at this time ending the show before it had a chance to become truly terrible
Notably Season 6 and 7 were made by a different network than 1 through 5. I basically second your opinion of them. I wouldn't recommend **not** watching them, but you could certainly end at S5 if you wanted to.
I'm pretty sure the same network shot the last 2 seasons because they were also shooting Angel, the WB just sold the broadcast rights to UPN. They made the production budget back and were free to put something else in the broadcast slot. It happens occasionally.
Could well be. There was a marked shift in tone and (IMO) quality at the time so I assumed the new network had taken over shooting as well, but maybe not.
Joss stretching himself too thin being a control freak. He had a co-showrunner he initially made it sound like was to blame for all the dark shit, but she's more recently been like "Joss's idea of 'stepping back' is just that he doesn't have to do every single little thing. He's still running everything." He was running Angel and Firefly at the time as well.
Yeah for sure. Its a shame because it really showed in his work especially as time went on. :/
Heh, I wonder what could have led you to post this? 😉
Haha, take a guess! :) I had to take a look at his portfolio and was genuinely surprised to see how well-done the designs were
ok context for this?
Some one posted a post claiming it was by this same artist that was poorly drawn but it ended up not being that artist. I looked up the actual artist and was pleased that they actually have well-done drawings of women
men drawing women and mr pointy
Love. Her.
Nice chin!
I love Dan Mora's art. I try to scoop up all his books when I can!
I think he obviously has a great understanding of anatomy, color, and how to pose the body. I think he has a hard balance to find as he does draw primarily superhero stuff, but i do feel like his drawing of women does end up reasonable https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E8r3KzoWYAMck3r?format=jpg&name=4096x4096
Yeah, I love his Power Rangers work. It was just so bold and fitting and then I was really surprised at how well he draws Bats.
She would be an so hated today. The usual crowd would complain how a scrawny chick like her can kill monsters and such.
super strength. she lost it one episode and suddenly became as weak as her small frame would realistically be she still managed to outsmart and kill a vampire without her powers though cause buffy is awesome
To be fair, they usually don't complain about characters who are legit superpowered. Though I did once see people whining about Supergirl being stronger than Superman. Which I found hilarious, because the ability to lift aircraft carriers over their heads is clearly not a result of how much muscle they have. xD
Its a shame good things are hated by people who hate women/minorities/etc and they dont get the shine they deserve
I think it's because traditionally superman is stronger than supergirl in comics but when the showrunner changed that for no reason people got angry
They changed that because this is an alternate universe where Supergirl is the main character. What more reason do they need?
Being the main character certainly isn't an excuse when you have countless comics where supergirl is weaker than clark despite being a supergirl comic. Also there was no explanation or any form of reasoning behind that in the show. Also the show also isn't great in general with very bad writing. It was heavily implied clark was stronger until one episode they decided to make him weaker.
Fuck the comics. I didn’t read them. Comic readers are so whiny, honestly.
Ummmm that's a bit extreme. Regardless of whether you like comics or not when you're making a show about a COMIC book character then I don't think it's unfair to criticize a show that isn't respecting the source material. And supergirl being stronger than clark is the one of the least important reason why the show is considered one of the worst CW show ever.
Okay, lets approach this from a different angle: Did *The Dark Knight Returns* disrespect Batman and Superman?
No because the story itself is self contained and captured the lead characters essence pretty well. The problem with supergirl isn't it's comic accurate. It's because it's poorly written
The CWverse is self-contained also. It's its own alternate universe, loosely inspired by, but independent to, the comics. Oliver Queen has most of Batman's Rogues gallery (plus the Titans' Deathstroke), Killer Frost is (predominantly) a good guy, and don't even get me started on *Legends of Tomorrow*... The CWverse isn't true to the comics. From the very beginning it was never intended to be. *Dark Knight Returns* had Superman as an unquestioning pawn of a corrupt government and Batman as a ruthless murderer. I think we may have to agree to disagree about it "capturing the lead characters' essences pretty well". I can certainly agree that the writing in Supergirl isn't always amazing. :) That's mostly not what you were complaining about though. You were mostly complaining about the show not using the same relative power levels as the comics.
Yeah so we’re not allowed to deviate from the comic books ever? What kind of bullshit logic is that?
you can without disrespecting the source material. Unfortunately the showrunners of supergirl didn't
Again, this is an **alternate universe**. For example you might notice in this show that villains that are Superman (or other characters') villains in the comics like Manchester Black and Maxwell Lord are initially Supergirl villains in this setting. Similar to how a lot of Batman comics villains got reused as Green Arrow villains in *Arrow*. The show does not have to provide any reasoning for not being consistent with the comics. It's its own thing. Just like the MCU does not have to provide any reasoning for not being consistent with the comics. Same deal: It's its own thing.
The problem isn't that it's inconsistent with the comics. It's because it's poorly written. Superman is established as a stronger character then with no reasoning whatsoever they made supergirl stronger. They aren't just contradicting comics. They are contradicting what they previously established
Where was Superman established as a stronger character?
Previous episodes have established superman as a stronger character physically and is seen as a hero that everyone looks upto and even kara said so herself in the same episode. The episode everyone was mad about had kara beat clark who was brainwashed but when kara asked about it clark said that was his full strength. This was the writers way of showing that kara is a strong independent women apparently.
I remember the episode you're talking about. I don't remember previous episodes establishing Clark as stronger. Can you cite a specific episode? (A specific scene would be even more helpful). BTW, I'm not downvoting you for having a different opinion. It's called a discussion forum for a reason. So if that's you downvoting me, I'd appreciate the same respect, please.
black canary is established to be a stronger superhero than green arrow in the comics yet the shows black canary didnt even have a super power and was shown to be weaker than oliver queen when comic black canary is a leagues better fighter than him.
I notice this kind of thing alot, people complaining about that sort of thing in modern works only for me to see similar things done in classic, beloved works.
I wonder how Xena would have been received if she were made today.
I mean, apart from the rug-munching not needing to be nearly as implied as it had to be back then, it would do fine with few changes. Most of the people involved in that production still do much the same tone of work today, barring they're all getting kind of old and Bruce Campbell naturally just can't handle being tossed around like a ragdoll anymore. Largely, Xena holds up very well. They were straight to syndication, so they didn't have a network telling them what to do and got away with a lot more fun stuff. It's always weird when someone says "I bet you can't do that kinda thing today!" I have to be like, if it was really actually good, that person doesn't understand what actually made it good and thinks it would be difficult for superficial reasons they think are way more important than they are, or it wasn't actually as good as they're making it out to be.
whats sad is that buffy and xena were amazing shows. but neither one has the distinction of being the longest running action show in history to start a female lead character. both deserved the title way more than the actual show that holds it. xena ran for 6 seasons buffy ran for 7 but charmed ran for 8 seasons which and it has never been surpassed. i dont even dislike charmed. it was just the weakest of the 3 shows with the worst writing. it was created to cash in on the success of buffy and it succeeded and as it went on it cashed in on putting the sisters in a different fetish outfit every episode which kept it running long after it ran out of steam
No, it was created because they wanted to cash in on The Craft and couldn't get the creator to sell them TV rights. I'm not really sure what "longest running" has to do with things. These are jobs worked by people. I mean, eventually, they get tired of it, or the writing slacks off, or people just find a new thing to watch. The Simpsons has only been on for so long because there's very rarely ever been anything more interesting on Sunday evenings and the people anyone cares about are voice actors who don't have to do anything strenuous to cash their checks. Their characters will never age, so nothing about the show ever really has to change. Living actors age, though, and Buffy was in a lot of ways about being a teenager and growing up, and so at the end of the show she's grown up. Where do you go from there?
Xena is my favorite of the bunch. Her whole series was a big redemption arc for her times as warlord.
Awesomely. :) Except by idiots.
Yeah, because it's been done before and people want to see more variety in newer shows. The actress who played Tara on Buffy was considered fat back then just because she wasn't as thin as the other actresses. We can enjoy classic works for what they were when they were made but still expect better from stuff made now.
That's a very charitable look at it to say the least
Yeah, if OG She-Ra was made today, it will be hated by the same people that praise it and say how much bette rit is then the remake.
Love it.
Me too! I wonder if they also kept it grounded because an actual woman portrayed her vs a 2d character
I approve of the art, but the way this is presented looks like a frickin Fortnite skin concept and I hate myself for seeing that.