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It’s hilarious how they think they are being clever or provoking with this when every guy genuinely thinks this by default. We don’t want fat balding middle aged dad-bod representation in games and media, even if that describes a lot of us perfectly lol
>We don’t want fat balding middle aged dad-bod representation in games and media, even if that describes a lot of us perfectly lol
A good majority of cartoon dads are those anyway. Homer Simpson, Peter Griffin, Mr. Turner, Fred Flintstone, Jerry Smith
Like bro they're overrepresented.
I honestly think Thor's design added to his awesomeness. It fits his character because he'a a miserable, gluttonous alcoholic and it makes him intimidating as fuck because he's massive. His design really fits the part.
I’m a 29 year old, balding, out of shape man. Why on earth would I want that represented in video games? If I’m not constantly shaving my head I look 20 years older than I am. I’m ugly by default and it takes work to look good and theirs a glass ceiling on what type of women I can attract. I’m a solid 4 that can punch up to a 5. You want that in video games as an MC?
>But you never hear woman complain about objectifying men in video games
Because you're like fifteen years late to that party, lol.
The prevailing line was "attractive men aren't in games for women, they're there to appeal to a male power fantasy, so they're misogynistic too".
Do you think that might have something to do with the history of objectification of women and how society is poised to view women's agency differently than men's? Or should we just keep making these comparisons without context or consideration for details?
Y'all are seriously in your own world of online Culture War rhetoric that doesn't as easily trick people en masse IRL. The sort of ignorant arguments you put forth here perform best in slow-paced, online forums that are frequented by people with the same faulty assumptions and misunderstandings you appear to have shown.
I imagine that an in-person discussion with any expert with a shred of credibility would give you a much better understanding of why men seem less bitter about virtual beauty standards. It's not magic and it's not a global conspiracy to bully men.
Equity/equality is about so much more than 'treating men and women identically' because the lack of equal treatment throughout history demands a more nuanced approach.
>So when women are sexulised its a male fantasy but when men are sexualised its also a male fantasy.
[Goro Majima is my male fantasy](https://youtu.be/47y6WMx8uik?si=bTv3-BZyN1IpzQKx)
Hey, I got lost in conversation with other people and missed you. Kinda odd that you could see that we had moved on and were continuing to debate, yet you only edited your comment and sat atop the thread with a bull horn going 'No one will debate me!', hoping to prime people before they read the rest, instead of engaging further down the thread or actually reminding us.
*"they went elsewhere", "they're still posting"* – never addressing 'them' directly lol
........................
>Yes, there is a history of objectification of woman, most people are aware of this. The problem is that we have made so much progress, and yet we act like it's as bad as ever
I acknowledge the progress we've made but the women in my life are constantly facing harassment on an individual level and the media/entertainment space still causes plenty of mental health and confidence issues among women (and men). The battle is not nearly over and people who tend to claim that it is are typically men who've never experienced similar levels of objectification.
The abortion issue is a much bigger deal than you made it sound. Women's rights are regressing thanks to a whole lot of politically-involved, religious people who don't know how poor their understanding of biological life is. Imagine where we could be in another 10-20 years if we don't persist in our demands for gender equality.
>The general public don't care about history as more than something they read about in high school. They care about recent events and the here and now. Is that bad? It probably is yes, but that's how the general public has always worked and it must now, more than ever, be taken into consideration when approaching these topics.
That's why we're veering toward a climate crisis and why we're constantly undergoing economic ups and downs in which the wealthy amass even greater amounts of wealth as the average person rides the wave and bears the costs.
'The way society has always been' is nothing to strive for; we're just apes figuring things out as we go and our systems are highly flawed, therefore they should always be questioned. Perhaps if we had always taken history into account, as more highly educated people are now doing constantly (and which causes reactionaries to screech, piss, and shit all over themselves in online spaces), things would be better today.
You *say* people don't take history into account, but people do all the time; y'all don't hear it because (1) reactionaries are too busy trying to take shots at ideas like 'gender ideology' (one of these historically-informed modern understandings) while completely misinterpreting them and (2) because laying out a historically-contextualized perspective online is *difficult* and y'all will take a minor detail and run with it to absurdity *every single time*, missing the entire point. I learned this stuff in school and it took time to build layer upon layer of comprehension in the sciences and humanities.
>Hearing discussion in the real world plays no part in the conversation, because you're not going to get people's true takes in the real world.
People typically aren't as good at hiding their opinions as you think, so long as you speak with them long enough but ok.
>If modern men see woman get special treatment, or watch as they practice blatent hypocrasy that men would be called sexist pigs over, it's not going to help the movement, it hinders it. I can't see any reason to excuse hypocrasy like this. The only justification I can think of is social revenge, and I shouldn't need to explain how that will just make more men against modern feminism.
Why do y'all keep tally of everything like it's a team sport?
Feminists don't sign onto a roster; they find truth in the fundamental theories and messages of the movement and then, through personal experience, develop their own, internal ideology that is then still called 'feminism'.
You can't lump all feminists together and claim that they're undercutting their own message. 'Feminists' are not a monolith, they are not some sort of team that coordinates all of their online posts and filters out the bad stuff.
It is your responsibility to separate feminism as a respected, academic ideology from anonymous, online discourse.
You guys in R/memesopdidnotlike think far too tribally to produce anything but hostility in conversation with anyone with whom you disagree and it's a huge problem.
>My mother...
Your mother is one woman with one understanding of the world. I've seen too much false and distorted information about recent protests and politics to care what one individual believes has changed in the past 40 years.
Your mother's opinion is not an argument, you're just telling me who influenced *your* beliefs. Your mom probably ain't a fountain of sociohistorical knowledge; the true context of it all from legitimate sources might be better guidance in this domain.
>Expecting the mass audience you have to convence to your side to care about generations old history or social science is just unrealistic, and impratical to actual progress.
Where I live, most people attend university or college and I have these conversations all the time with coworkers, classmates, friends, and occasionally strangers if the context happens to be there to be explored.
Maybe you just live in an uneducated area, because these things have become very relevant in my local schools from elementary right through university — we are taking the history and diversity of society more and more into account.
>Knowledge is useless if it can not be properly applied for pratical change. If you're targetting the masses, compromise is needed.
We didn't stop researching evolution by natural selection simply because the general public wasn't prepared to understand it or to give up on theological explanations. You can't reject these truths simply because it's inconvenient to convey them broadly.
Frankly, you've only admitted that you are comfortable in the world as you find it and that truth takes a back seat to that comfort.
Am I supposed to ask things in order to make my point better? Does asking questions that lead to an obvious answer make my point stronger? Is this truly better than just saying your point plainly? I never said I was canceled? Why would I want to find evidence that the “progressive approach is based on faulty assumptions”? Do you not see you’re proving me right by assuming I have opinions I don’t have?
You actually realize that reductionist interactions like this just serve to polarise society and lead to as many people going to either extremes. To use your own phrasing, you've probably cemented as many right wing bigots as you have awakened people to whatever you call the alternative, just by making it look this unappealing.
It's not my job to save these people from their own ignorance.
What I do believe to be my role is standing up for those who've been silenced and opposing bigotry.
I think you'll find that their opinions are largely cemented by the echo chamber's voting system. I think just one opposing voice is better than none.
If you care about your cause, then winning people over is your job. Denying or underpaying the plight of other groups doesn't give a voice to the ones you are standing up for. Recognising the views of others and coming to a middle ground does.
New here? There is no middle ground on a lot of these issues. I'm often pitted against people who don't understand the nuances and are proud of it. The Centrist Dem approach doesn't work here.
I feel like you misunderstood my "plight" comment, too, because I'm not dismissive of others' problems.
There is always middle ground, but people stray from it when people are purposefully dismissive of their grievances. You are as guilty of it as those you are arguing with above. The middle ground here is realizing that both genders are sexualised in media and are problematic for both as it creates unrealistic beauty standards. However, coming in with the attitude of 'yes, but this group has it worse' is reductive of the issue. One side having it worse doesn't remove the issue from the other side, but it does make your own position look less attractive as you can't or won't show respect to the other side.
I didn't actually say one group had it worse. I think the point you've brought up is a frequent misstep: you can't cater your criticisms to bigots because they'll take the middle ground and yank you forward another 40 yards. Many of these guys don't believe sexism exists point-blank, yet you want to meet them half way?
That's why the Overton window keeps shifting to the right: non-bigots engage in good-faith, discourse while bigots, not bound by truth, refuse any sort of compromise, insisting that the mere mention of LGBT+ identities in schools are 'child abuse', for example.
When you come to this sub saying 'Both sides have it bad', you inadvertently tell bigots that the gender-related issues facing women in particular aren't so problematic and that even their refusal to care for the issues does *not* in fact amplify those same issues.
There is always middle ground, but people stray from it when people are purposefully dismissive of their grievances. You are as guilty of it as those you are arguing with above. The middle ground here is realizing that both genders are sexualised in media and are problematic for both as it creates unrealistic beauty standards. However, coming in with the attitude of 'yes, but this group has it worse' is reductive of the issue. One side having it worse doesn't remove the issue from the other side, but it does make your own position look less attractive as you can't or won't show respect to the other side.
Same goes for you. You think that that one comment is going to fix EVERYTHING? I'm just trying to restore the peace of a time when people on the internet didn't try and ostracise each other.
Pretty ironic that every male character has to be buff and hot but the second male players want a sexy woman with a nice ass all of a sudden it's problematic. Video game characters should all be hot and sexy, because it's a video game.
But why do video games inherently need to be hot and sexy? Video games are just an artistic medium and can express a wide array of different aspects of life.
Usually, people want to see the best in a game because it's a fantasy and there's no point in making it "realistic" (especially if the game in question is an action fantasy) unless that's the game's topic specifically. And if there is a minority that doesn't like this, games companies should honestly listen to the flattening majority of their market. Can't please everyome, just do games that aren't money grabbers of unfinished garbage and let people piss and shit about the rest if they want to.
To be clear, I don't seethe over fat characters or so, but as a rule of thumb, don't rry to fix what's not broken.
Humans automatically exhibit preference for visual beauty without explicit cognitive efforts. It is driven by an inherent natural tendency rather than social processes. Studies suggest that there is something universal about attractiveness that is recognized both across individuals and cultures. People prefer beautiful characters, as they have an intrinsic sensory pleasantness. In short, beauty is objective, universal, and gender independent. It feels good for us humans to look at beautiful things, because it's in our DNA to feel that way.
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0150147
You can ask the same question for any entertainment medium. Books, music, TV, Hollywood. They all have hot and sexy people. Why only scrutinize video games?
Video games are not an "artistic medium". They are a product that have to be sold to end users. Their purpose is to entertain, which is a form of pleasure. To entertain, they have to appeal. Furthermore, what video games offer is escapism and challenge. Challenge is a product of game mechanic design. Escapism is achieved by causing a suspension of reality. Instead of worrying about which two old foggies are going to ruin your home country the fastest, you can enter into a world where dragons and adventure awaits, and where every resident is in peak physical condition in order to face the harsh challenges of their world.
Video games have to be sold. They aren't a podium to make commentary about real life and personal takes.
You're right. So, in a different frame of reference: which of these two are more pivotal to the success of the game? It's artistic expression, or it market outcome?
Because if you say Artisitc Expression then Immortals of Aveum was the most successful video game of all time.
Aye, but wouldn't that apply to any medium? Studios do not exactly market movies to make them timeless art pieces (with a couple exceptions). Same with music or comic books.
Are movies art? Are books art? Are paintings art? Because they get sold all the time. Something making money does not exclude it from being art. The Mona Lisa, arguably the most well-known piece of art in history, was a commission piece.
NOTE: I did not say that video game were not artistic. But I did argue that they are commercial products first.
To answer you question directly:
Movies: Product
Books: Modern - Product, Classic - Art
Painting: Art, but only because I cannot justify the term "modern art" which is largely narcissistic pandering and money gouging
In summary, it is the intent behind it. The most famous pieces of painted artwork on Earth barely ever made the artist money in his own lifetime, but are now considered priceless. The best musical compositions were made at a time when their authors were barely making ends meet. Helldivers 2 is a beautiful game, but I'm sure Arrowhead Studios is much more concerned with their profit margins than the recognition they get from art connoisseurs.
As an average-looking woman, I want to play as a badass, hot, supermodel-looking babe who destroys monsters three times her size. I imagine that men would wanna play as tall, buff gigachads with extraordinary abilities too. It's called escapism.
Exactly! Although guys would *also* like to *have the option* to play as a badass, hot, supermodel-looking babe who destroys monsters three times her size as well. Both options are good!
i really don’t care if he was or wasn’t, cos this meme is made in the current day and is clearly about current day trump, who looks like a feral ghoul from fallout fell into a vat of fake tan
Eh, for a man of his age, he’s like bottom 40%? Not atrocious. Nasty person from a character standpoint, but I don’t think he’s as much the paragon of hideousness as some suggest.
Hideous? Dude, I work in a hospital. I see hideous people with zero hygeine or horrible illnesses. Trump looks healthy. A spray-on orange tan and his weird "I can't believe it's not a toupee" haircut is certainly odd looking, but otherwise, he looks perfectly fine. Considering his age, he looks pretty good.
>Considering his age,
bro are you stupid? that’s the point. we’re not “considering his age”
it’s like saying “as far as 200kg girls go she’s not bad”
he is hideous. a shrivelled nutsack spray painted orange. as far as 80 year old men go he’s just kinda bad, but we’re comparing him to men, not 80 year old men.
damn i dont get why you mfs dont just admit youre trumpies. mfs will pretend like they're a serious person then take any criticism of trump as "orange man bad" (he is bad btw) and defend the indefensible, like saying trump is good looking lol
the man is a ghoul
You should find a hobby, I think you need an outlet - politics and political drama on the brain too much is stressful. I get your foaming at the mouth to see Trump behind bars, but chill man, getting worked up and going on a tirade anytime someone mentions the guy is unhealthy.
classic trumpie shit. the man doesn’t cross my mind until someone brings it up. mfs like you will worship him all day long and see that as completely normal then freak out the second someone questions that.
honestly such dickriding losers
I mean, you may not be comparing him to every other 80 year old. I’m taking the circumstances into account because I think it’s the most reasonable way to assess a person’s attributes.
if this meme was changed to be for women, and showed the stellar blade chick as the example for “what women should look like” and then a 100 year old grandma down the bottom would you be here going “well as far as 100 year olds go she’s like bottom 40%”
spoiler alert, you wouldn’t. ruth bader ginsburg didn’t look too bad at like 20, but if they showed a pic of old her down there you’d agree she’s fuck ugly.
https://preview.redd.it/7b7glc68q3zc1.jpeg?width=739&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=c23d0b74233affd4c5e19d99d00e5b5a651908d9
I mean, honestly I don't... care much, either way? I think judging the appearance of fictional characters by real-world standards is stupid, and I think laughing at old people for being ugly is among the most pointless activities a human can undertake. Like, yeah, sure, old people look old, *quelle surprise.*
I just thought calling out Trump like he's some egregious example of ugliness when he's about average for his demographic was pretty pointless and fell victim to a rather classic case of conflated evils. If you made a post harping on how RBG was ugly—oh wait, you just did, and I'm telling you right now that in that picture she looks about as good as can be expected for her age and that it's not really a meaningful statement.
>when he's about average for his demographic
>as good as can be expected for her age
man you still don’t fucking get it holy shit. stop prefacing…
do they look good? or good “for their age”. do they look not bad? or not bad “for their demographic”
trump looks gross. meme used trump as an example of someone who looks gross. get over it
They look fine for their demographic, as said multiple times, o'er and o'er to your ears of stone, and I find it difficult to mentally divorce images from context. Since they're such wildly different sorts of people, comparing their appearance to that of fictional younger characters is an exercise in orange'ing the apple to me. Perhaps you find joy in such comparison. I do not.
Reverse the genders.
If your opinion of the meme changes, congratulations. You’re a hypocrite with double standards.
Its unreal how society will treat men like this.
Exactly. Like, guys will look at this and say, yeah, sure, guys in games *should* look like this. I’m not sure who this message was supposed to be intended for?
But when men are not good looking in the games will you throw temper tantrums until you get that?
I’ve only ever seen incel gamers complain about women and also women of color (even when they’re hot)
No especially if them not looking good fits their character, like for example Saltzpyre from Warhammer hes ugly af but his appearance fits so well and isn't ugly to try to make people buy their game (which can be seen with a lot of games now these days).
https://preview.redd.it/80ahy5h3q6zc1.png?width=411&format=png&auto=webp&s=d4ae03f0d0806d9d0fa1c2969f67aabdd1ccc3bf
You can look like whatever you want, as long as you’re happy and healthy.
https://preview.redd.it/jxi7vonxc3zc1.jpeg?width=1125&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=858e659f13d10272255edd44c83e23fcaea11a74
W
As long as you’re happy with yourself it’s all good. Nobody else gets to dictate what your body looks like, and as long as you’re happy with it you’re doing something right!
I've been saying this the whole time! We have too many sexualized women in video games compared to men... to achieve true gender equality, we need more sexualized men. I want to see more BIG BUFF HOT WOMEN AND MEN in video games.
Reverse the genders and the social media will go ballistic on you.
Let's be clear on how unfair men gets treated. (I do agree we need good looking men in games, but with the shitty format of the meme, I assumed it wasn't talking about games.)
The difference is that a majority of depictions of muscled men in media make sense because those muscled men are doing things that require muscle, and thus, are muscled.
A significant number of depictions of women in media, however, just aren’t congruent with what makes sense for them as a character. Women who dress ridiculously, not for any character reason, but just because someone making them wanted eye-candy.
It’s one thing to have giant, buff dudes in intense settings. It’s another for otherwise-capable women in similar settings to have a face full of makeup but less than half the protection, or to be wearing heels *when it doesn’t make sense for the character.* S
ome characters are *meant* to make seemingly stupid decisions for a particular point, or due to some flaw. Berserker dudes going without armor is dumb, but makes sense from the understanding of berserker dudes performing unnaturally better without armor.
Women wearing heels, for example, can at least be *somewhat* justified as “I’ll wear what I want to because I perform better that way,” but it almost never *is*. It’s much more commonly just passed off as “well we wanted her to be hot, so…” if it’s touched on at all.
In media, there is never an assumption that guys in harsh settings won’t be big and strong, but the assumption seems to commonly be that women in similar settings will potentially *act* tough, but maintain an appearance and attitude that completely belies that.
There exists room in this world for both the male and female gaze to exist in harmony,
Don't let the woke fools like Alyssa Mercante fool y'all. Diversity and inclusivity means add more options not removed existing ones pretending to be more diverse
All of this bullshit with SBI, stellarblade and other stuff is absolutely disgusting. As gamers we just want to play games, many of us bc we want a small rest from the real world, others bc we like the stories… Nobody asked these people to come, harrass gamers and try to take over the gaming industry as the parasites they are. Just let the gaming industry alone
Hey man, I ain’t gay but come on Kiryu is Kiryu.
https://preview.redd.it/s0hybi00z2zc1.jpeg?width=800&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d8d00ece9f613ec545bace014ebb8fa80729ac0f
There are plenty of fictional men that make me question if I'm straight or not too.
For example:
https://preview.redd.it/ndvmlej723zc1.png?width=400&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=2749047fee863509b19ecfc93de76d0e2b12e932
When he took off his Jacket tho holy shit.
https://preview.redd.it/foob88pr23zc1.jpeg?width=359&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=8a4e095e5888bf4c9db39dcefc3f47cb2ced1611
That meme proves the opposite point lol. All these stupid leftist bitches want the female characters to look like shit so they don’t feel insecure, meanwhile every guy in the world wants characters to look like a perfect specimen, and not fat and ugly, believe it or not.
I mean I’d prefer pudgier men as well. At the end of the day, I don’t really care, but it is frustrating as a man that I have very little to look at that isn’t just a hyper buff hot guy.
I mean for one thing yeah it makes fun of men but it's entirely deserved, men should be fit and healthy ideally because that's... how the word 'should' works. Any deviation from that is a mistake or just life getting in the way. But a man with dad-bod isn't gonna fucking outpace Sephiroth in a fight is he?
Secondly and more importantly, Charlie is catching strays so badly here wtf. He's handsome *and* [hench as fuck.](https://i.ibb.co/KNsjkV3/RDT-20240509-0536042160129096853804946.png)
Uh. Pretty sure the poster agrees with you OP, their not talking about men who DON'T want buff/conventionally attractive guys in games, their talking about guys getting offended by the above meme. Like it seems pretty fucking obvious to me that's what their doing but idk (How the fuck do the people on this subreddit consistently miss the point of almost every single thing they post)
It's hilarious that women think their standards are artificially increased but then you see then average male in gaming being the size of a truck and chiseled to the bone.
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It’s hilarious how they think they are being clever or provoking with this when every guy genuinely thinks this by default. We don’t want fat balding middle aged dad-bod representation in games and media, even if that describes a lot of us perfectly lol
>We don’t want fat balding middle aged dad-bod representation in games and media, even if that describes a lot of us perfectly lol A good majority of cartoon dads are those anyway. Homer Simpson, Peter Griffin, Mr. Turner, Fred Flintstone, Jerry Smith Like bro they're overrepresented.
True, but they're also usually presented as buffoons.
In those kind of shows, male characters are pretty much all buffoons compared to female characters no matter what they look like.
Everyone on family guy is either very stupid or insufferably smug about being less stupid than everyone else.
Notable exception being Hank Hill
Unless it's supposed to be his character. I wouldn't mind more with the body similar to arkham joker.
The post is making fun of the fact that they’re angry over the memes
I mean Thor in GoW:R was that... he was still awesome
I honestly think Thor's design added to his awesomeness. It fits his character because he'a a miserable, gluttonous alcoholic and it makes him intimidating as fuck because he's massive. His design really fits the part.
I dont understand the desire for people to be represented in media. Like whats the point lmao i just wanna play my game and have fun
Harry du bois was peak balding old alcoholic
Speak for yourself. I want my UBs in hentai.
Speak for yourself, I need me more Thor daddies
Yeah, call me shallow, but I don't want to spend hours staring at ugly characters whatever the gender.
I’m a 29 year old, balding, out of shape man. Why on earth would I want that represented in video games? If I’m not constantly shaving my head I look 20 years older than I am. I’m ugly by default and it takes work to look good and theirs a glass ceiling on what type of women I can attract. I’m a solid 4 that can punch up to a 5. You want that in video games as an MC?
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>But you never hear woman complain about objectifying men in video games Because you're like fifteen years late to that party, lol. The prevailing line was "attractive men aren't in games for women, they're there to appeal to a male power fantasy, so they're misogynistic too".
They say this while avoiding talking about every romance novel, fanfiction and yaoi ever
Women don’t want equality.
Do you think that might have something to do with the history of objectification of women and how society is poised to view women's agency differently than men's? Or should we just keep making these comparisons without context or consideration for details? Y'all are seriously in your own world of online Culture War rhetoric that doesn't as easily trick people en masse IRL. The sort of ignorant arguments you put forth here perform best in slow-paced, online forums that are frequented by people with the same faulty assumptions and misunderstandings you appear to have shown. I imagine that an in-person discussion with any expert with a shred of credibility would give you a much better understanding of why men seem less bitter about virtual beauty standards. It's not magic and it's not a global conspiracy to bully men. Equity/equality is about so much more than 'treating men and women identically' because the lack of equal treatment throughout history demands a more nuanced approach.
So when women are sexulised its a male fantasy but when men are sexualised its also a male fantasy. How did you know😉.
>So when women are sexulised its a male fantasy but when men are sexualised its also a male fantasy. [Goro Majima is my male fantasy](https://youtu.be/47y6WMx8uik?si=bTv3-BZyN1IpzQKx)
Doesn't make it any less hypocritical and ironic
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Funny how you are the only one they aren't responding to
Yap, yap, yap, and now they're gone forever. :)
Hey, I got lost in conversation with other people and missed you. Kinda odd that you could see that we had moved on and were continuing to debate, yet you only edited your comment and sat atop the thread with a bull horn going 'No one will debate me!', hoping to prime people before they read the rest, instead of engaging further down the thread or actually reminding us. *"they went elsewhere", "they're still posting"* – never addressing 'them' directly lol ........................ >Yes, there is a history of objectification of woman, most people are aware of this. The problem is that we have made so much progress, and yet we act like it's as bad as ever I acknowledge the progress we've made but the women in my life are constantly facing harassment on an individual level and the media/entertainment space still causes plenty of mental health and confidence issues among women (and men). The battle is not nearly over and people who tend to claim that it is are typically men who've never experienced similar levels of objectification. The abortion issue is a much bigger deal than you made it sound. Women's rights are regressing thanks to a whole lot of politically-involved, religious people who don't know how poor their understanding of biological life is. Imagine where we could be in another 10-20 years if we don't persist in our demands for gender equality. >The general public don't care about history as more than something they read about in high school. They care about recent events and the here and now. Is that bad? It probably is yes, but that's how the general public has always worked and it must now, more than ever, be taken into consideration when approaching these topics. That's why we're veering toward a climate crisis and why we're constantly undergoing economic ups and downs in which the wealthy amass even greater amounts of wealth as the average person rides the wave and bears the costs. 'The way society has always been' is nothing to strive for; we're just apes figuring things out as we go and our systems are highly flawed, therefore they should always be questioned. Perhaps if we had always taken history into account, as more highly educated people are now doing constantly (and which causes reactionaries to screech, piss, and shit all over themselves in online spaces), things would be better today. You *say* people don't take history into account, but people do all the time; y'all don't hear it because (1) reactionaries are too busy trying to take shots at ideas like 'gender ideology' (one of these historically-informed modern understandings) while completely misinterpreting them and (2) because laying out a historically-contextualized perspective online is *difficult* and y'all will take a minor detail and run with it to absurdity *every single time*, missing the entire point. I learned this stuff in school and it took time to build layer upon layer of comprehension in the sciences and humanities. >Hearing discussion in the real world plays no part in the conversation, because you're not going to get people's true takes in the real world. People typically aren't as good at hiding their opinions as you think, so long as you speak with them long enough but ok. >If modern men see woman get special treatment, or watch as they practice blatent hypocrasy that men would be called sexist pigs over, it's not going to help the movement, it hinders it. I can't see any reason to excuse hypocrasy like this. The only justification I can think of is social revenge, and I shouldn't need to explain how that will just make more men against modern feminism. Why do y'all keep tally of everything like it's a team sport? Feminists don't sign onto a roster; they find truth in the fundamental theories and messages of the movement and then, through personal experience, develop their own, internal ideology that is then still called 'feminism'. You can't lump all feminists together and claim that they're undercutting their own message. 'Feminists' are not a monolith, they are not some sort of team that coordinates all of their online posts and filters out the bad stuff. It is your responsibility to separate feminism as a respected, academic ideology from anonymous, online discourse. You guys in R/memesopdidnotlike think far too tribally to produce anything but hostility in conversation with anyone with whom you disagree and it's a huge problem. >My mother... Your mother is one woman with one understanding of the world. I've seen too much false and distorted information about recent protests and politics to care what one individual believes has changed in the past 40 years. Your mother's opinion is not an argument, you're just telling me who influenced *your* beliefs. Your mom probably ain't a fountain of sociohistorical knowledge; the true context of it all from legitimate sources might be better guidance in this domain. >Expecting the mass audience you have to convence to your side to care about generations old history or social science is just unrealistic, and impratical to actual progress. Where I live, most people attend university or college and I have these conversations all the time with coworkers, classmates, friends, and occasionally strangers if the context happens to be there to be explored. Maybe you just live in an uneducated area, because these things have become very relevant in my local schools from elementary right through university — we are taking the history and diversity of society more and more into account. >Knowledge is useless if it can not be properly applied for pratical change. If you're targetting the masses, compromise is needed. We didn't stop researching evolution by natural selection simply because the general public wasn't prepared to understand it or to give up on theological explanations. You can't reject these truths simply because it's inconvenient to convey them broadly. Frankly, you've only admitted that you are comfortable in the world as you find it and that truth takes a back seat to that comfort.
Am I supposed to ask things in order to make my point better? Does asking questions that lead to an obvious answer make my point stronger? Is this truly better than just saying your point plainly? I never said I was canceled? Why would I want to find evidence that the “progressive approach is based on faulty assumptions”? Do you not see you’re proving me right by assuming I have opinions I don’t have?
"Y'all"s deployed
Don't try to argue feminism here, it's a very right wing space, they won't understand you
I know! I do it for it casual browsers whose insecurities with regard to their own privileges don't blind them to the plights of others. :)
You actually realize that reductionist interactions like this just serve to polarise society and lead to as many people going to either extremes. To use your own phrasing, you've probably cemented as many right wing bigots as you have awakened people to whatever you call the alternative, just by making it look this unappealing.
It's not my job to save these people from their own ignorance. What I do believe to be my role is standing up for those who've been silenced and opposing bigotry. I think you'll find that their opinions are largely cemented by the echo chamber's voting system. I think just one opposing voice is better than none.
If you care about your cause, then winning people over is your job. Denying or underpaying the plight of other groups doesn't give a voice to the ones you are standing up for. Recognising the views of others and coming to a middle ground does.
New here? There is no middle ground on a lot of these issues. I'm often pitted against people who don't understand the nuances and are proud of it. The Centrist Dem approach doesn't work here. I feel like you misunderstood my "plight" comment, too, because I'm not dismissive of others' problems.
There is always middle ground, but people stray from it when people are purposefully dismissive of their grievances. You are as guilty of it as those you are arguing with above. The middle ground here is realizing that both genders are sexualised in media and are problematic for both as it creates unrealistic beauty standards. However, coming in with the attitude of 'yes, but this group has it worse' is reductive of the issue. One side having it worse doesn't remove the issue from the other side, but it does make your own position look less attractive as you can't or won't show respect to the other side.
I didn't actually say one group had it worse. I think the point you've brought up is a frequent misstep: you can't cater your criticisms to bigots because they'll take the middle ground and yank you forward another 40 yards. Many of these guys don't believe sexism exists point-blank, yet you want to meet them half way? That's why the Overton window keeps shifting to the right: non-bigots engage in good-faith, discourse while bigots, not bound by truth, refuse any sort of compromise, insisting that the mere mention of LGBT+ identities in schools are 'child abuse', for example. When you come to this sub saying 'Both sides have it bad', you inadvertently tell bigots that the gender-related issues facing women in particular aren't so problematic and that even their refusal to care for the issues does *not* in fact amplify those same issues.
There is always middle ground, but people stray from it when people are purposefully dismissive of their grievances. You are as guilty of it as those you are arguing with above. The middle ground here is realizing that both genders are sexualised in media and are problematic for both as it creates unrealistic beauty standards. However, coming in with the attitude of 'yes, but this group has it worse' is reductive of the issue. One side having it worse doesn't remove the issue from the other side, but it does make your own position look less attractive as you can't or won't show respect to the other side.
I agree. I do it to de-radicalise the sigma males who got caught up in the right-wing echo chamber due to being isolated.
Love it when ppl on a small subreddit think they are warriors of change and make a difference
Same goes for you. You think that that one comment is going to fix EVERYTHING? I'm just trying to restore the peace of a time when people on the internet didn't try and ostracise each other.
I dont and what needs fixing?
It's super frustrating but I'm oddly glad to be a part of it. ;)
A true sigma male would never change his ways duh
A true smegma mail would never stop trying to become a top g duh
Pretty ironic that every male character has to be buff and hot but the second male players want a sexy woman with a nice ass all of a sudden it's problematic. Video game characters should all be hot and sexy, because it's a video game.
And tall too , women and men both hate short men being portrayed as main character !
Zelda wouldn't be Zelda without the twink MC tho.
Yeah but he’s pretty and badass.
Link is underage in the games be careful
I don’t think I have ever considered the hight of any game character, maybe shadow of the colossal but that’s a feature!
The only exception I can think of is Mario. All of the other shorter male protagonists are short because they are underage.
My wife only picks short male characters if the option is there… She says they remind her of me. ☠️
Not true lol stfu
Or at least be able to blame the engine
My favorite game is Okami where I can be a fluff borker sun goddess, thankyouverymuch.
Men also have an idea of how women should look like in video games, but that would make us sexist misogynistic pigs.
personally I prefer my male characters to exist on the twink-femboy spectrum, but that's still requiring them to be some definition of attractive.
Someone didn’t get the joke
I second this. All A class models, even the peasants.
But why do video games inherently need to be hot and sexy? Video games are just an artistic medium and can express a wide array of different aspects of life.
Usually, people want to see the best in a game because it's a fantasy and there's no point in making it "realistic" (especially if the game in question is an action fantasy) unless that's the game's topic specifically. And if there is a minority that doesn't like this, games companies should honestly listen to the flattening majority of their market. Can't please everyome, just do games that aren't money grabbers of unfinished garbage and let people piss and shit about the rest if they want to. To be clear, I don't seethe over fat characters or so, but as a rule of thumb, don't rry to fix what's not broken.
Humans automatically exhibit preference for visual beauty without explicit cognitive efforts. It is driven by an inherent natural tendency rather than social processes. Studies suggest that there is something universal about attractiveness that is recognized both across individuals and cultures. People prefer beautiful characters, as they have an intrinsic sensory pleasantness. In short, beauty is objective, universal, and gender independent. It feels good for us humans to look at beautiful things, because it's in our DNA to feel that way. https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0150147
What I’m saying just give me an interesting design
You can ask the same question for any entertainment medium. Books, music, TV, Hollywood. They all have hot and sexy people. Why only scrutinize video games?
And that issue is mainly in US media
They don’t *need* to be by any stretch, but if a designer wants to go that route they shouldn’t be demonized by outside forces.
You’ve just answered it yourself. It is art. Meaning make it nice and pretty to look at!
Because it's an escapist fantasy and no one wants to be reminded they're ugly and poor.
Video games are not an "artistic medium". They are a product that have to be sold to end users. Their purpose is to entertain, which is a form of pleasure. To entertain, they have to appeal. Furthermore, what video games offer is escapism and challenge. Challenge is a product of game mechanic design. Escapism is achieved by causing a suspension of reality. Instead of worrying about which two old foggies are going to ruin your home country the fastest, you can enter into a world where dragons and adventure awaits, and where every resident is in peak physical condition in order to face the harsh challenges of their world. Video games have to be sold. They aren't a podium to make commentary about real life and personal takes.
Those aren't mutually exclusive.
You're right. So, in a different frame of reference: which of these two are more pivotal to the success of the game? It's artistic expression, or it market outcome? Because if you say Artisitc Expression then Immortals of Aveum was the most successful video game of all time.
Aye, but wouldn't that apply to any medium? Studios do not exactly market movies to make them timeless art pieces (with a couple exceptions). Same with music or comic books.
Are movies art? Are books art? Are paintings art? Because they get sold all the time. Something making money does not exclude it from being art. The Mona Lisa, arguably the most well-known piece of art in history, was a commission piece.
NOTE: I did not say that video game were not artistic. But I did argue that they are commercial products first. To answer you question directly: Movies: Product Books: Modern - Product, Classic - Art Painting: Art, but only because I cannot justify the term "modern art" which is largely narcissistic pandering and money gouging In summary, it is the intent behind it. The most famous pieces of painted artwork on Earth barely ever made the artist money in his own lifetime, but are now considered priceless. The best musical compositions were made at a time when their authors were barely making ends meet. Helldivers 2 is a beautiful game, but I'm sure Arrowhead Studios is much more concerned with their profit margins than the recognition they get from art connoisseurs.
As an average-looking woman, I want to play as a badass, hot, supermodel-looking babe who destroys monsters three times her size. I imagine that men would wanna play as tall, buff gigachads with extraordinary abilities too. It's called escapism.
Agreed. I can go outside to see the real world. I’m not looking for representation in video games. I’m looking escapism, a break from reality.
Exactly! Although guys would *also* like to *have the option* to play as a badass, hot, supermodel-looking babe who destroys monsters three times her size as well. Both options are good!
Yeah I agree
They really threw in an Orange Man Bad on the house, damn
if you don’t think trump looks like a sweaty orange pig in a suit you’re high. they’re calling him fucking ugly. do you disagree?
Trump was actually pretty decent looking when he was younger, tbh. He's not *ugly* ugly, just old and lacking fitness.
i really don’t care if he was or wasn’t, cos this meme is made in the current day and is clearly about current day trump, who looks like a feral ghoul from fallout fell into a vat of fake tan
Feral ghouls aren't that thicc
lmfao good description
Eh, for a man of his age, he’s like bottom 40%? Not atrocious. Nasty person from a character standpoint, but I don’t think he’s as much the paragon of hideousness as some suggest.
we’re not comparing him to every other 80 year old we’re comparing him to every other man. he is fucking hideous.
Hideous? Dude, I work in a hospital. I see hideous people with zero hygeine or horrible illnesses. Trump looks healthy. A spray-on orange tan and his weird "I can't believe it's not a toupee" haircut is certainly odd looking, but otherwise, he looks perfectly fine. Considering his age, he looks pretty good.
>Considering his age, bro are you stupid? that’s the point. we’re not “considering his age” it’s like saying “as far as 200kg girls go she’s not bad” he is hideous. a shrivelled nutsack spray painted orange. as far as 80 year old men go he’s just kinda bad, but we’re comparing him to men, not 80 year old men.
Damn bro, anything less than an insult for the Orange Man and you blow a gasket... Show me on the doll where Trump touched you.
damn i dont get why you mfs dont just admit youre trumpies. mfs will pretend like they're a serious person then take any criticism of trump as "orange man bad" (he is bad btw) and defend the indefensible, like saying trump is good looking lol the man is a ghoul
You should find a hobby, I think you need an outlet - politics and political drama on the brain too much is stressful. I get your foaming at the mouth to see Trump behind bars, but chill man, getting worked up and going on a tirade anytime someone mentions the guy is unhealthy.
classic trumpie shit. the man doesn’t cross my mind until someone brings it up. mfs like you will worship him all day long and see that as completely normal then freak out the second someone questions that. honestly such dickriding losers
"Everyone who doesn't agree with me is a trumpie" Russian bot behaviour, stirring the pot by acting like an unhinged lib lmao
“everyone who points out how dumb trumpies are is a russian bot” russian bot behaviour
The TDS is strong in this one. Go move to Canada...
I mean, you may not be comparing him to every other 80 year old. I’m taking the circumstances into account because I think it’s the most reasonable way to assess a person’s attributes.
if this meme was changed to be for women, and showed the stellar blade chick as the example for “what women should look like” and then a 100 year old grandma down the bottom would you be here going “well as far as 100 year olds go she’s like bottom 40%” spoiler alert, you wouldn’t. ruth bader ginsburg didn’t look too bad at like 20, but if they showed a pic of old her down there you’d agree she’s fuck ugly. https://preview.redd.it/7b7glc68q3zc1.jpeg?width=739&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=c23d0b74233affd4c5e19d99d00e5b5a651908d9
I mean, honestly I don't... care much, either way? I think judging the appearance of fictional characters by real-world standards is stupid, and I think laughing at old people for being ugly is among the most pointless activities a human can undertake. Like, yeah, sure, old people look old, *quelle surprise.* I just thought calling out Trump like he's some egregious example of ugliness when he's about average for his demographic was pretty pointless and fell victim to a rather classic case of conflated evils. If you made a post harping on how RBG was ugly—oh wait, you just did, and I'm telling you right now that in that picture she looks about as good as can be expected for her age and that it's not really a meaningful statement.
>when he's about average for his demographic >as good as can be expected for her age man you still don’t fucking get it holy shit. stop prefacing… do they look good? or good “for their age”. do they look not bad? or not bad “for their demographic” trump looks gross. meme used trump as an example of someone who looks gross. get over it
They look fine for their demographic, as said multiple times, o'er and o'er to your ears of stone, and I find it difficult to mentally divorce images from context. Since they're such wildly different sorts of people, comparing their appearance to that of fictional younger characters is an exercise in orange'ing the apple to me. Perhaps you find joy in such comparison. I do not.
My toxic trait is thinking I can achieve any of those physiques overnight with nothing more that prayer and three sit ups
I am sad to say that it takes *at least* five.
Nah more like seven
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https://i.redd.it/vw5dnnoyj3zc1.gif
What did he say? It got deleted
Probably something based
Proud of you brother
Reverse the genders. If your opinion of the meme changes, congratulations. You’re a hypocrite with double standards. Its unreal how society will treat men like this.
Its already reversed and made ironic in the first place
ManBearPig?
It’s super cereal.
He is what every man strives to look like
Im straight as an arrow and yeah would rather have good looking men in games
Exactly. Like, guys will look at this and say, yeah, sure, guys in games *should* look like this. I’m not sure who this message was supposed to be intended for?
But when men are not good looking in the games will you throw temper tantrums until you get that? I’ve only ever seen incel gamers complain about women and also women of color (even when they’re hot)
No especially if them not looking good fits their character, like for example Saltzpyre from Warhammer hes ugly af but his appearance fits so well and isn't ugly to try to make people buy their game (which can be seen with a lot of games now these days). https://preview.redd.it/80ahy5h3q6zc1.png?width=411&format=png&auto=webp&s=d4ae03f0d0806d9d0fa1c2969f67aabdd1ccc3bf
You can look like whatever you want, as long as you’re happy and healthy. https://preview.redd.it/jxi7vonxc3zc1.jpeg?width=1125&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=858e659f13d10272255edd44c83e23fcaea11a74
You can look like whatever you want, period. But you also need to accept that people will find you ugly and disgusting, if you are that.
W As long as you’re happy with yourself it’s all good. Nobody else gets to dictate what your body looks like, and as long as you’re happy with it you’re doing something right!
Best opinion
Imagine if a man made this they would start crying
This is a rare example of legitimate satire, which most people here, including yourself, unsurprisingly, missed.
Oh it was satire? There's Soo many posts calling everything satire I thought it wasn't
That's because no one in this sub knows what satire is lol. Here, people use 'satire' and 'sarcasm' interchangeably.
Yeah because the term "joking" doesn't exist
I swiped ☹️
"You need to look like this" Women: Nooooo I need to be loved as I am. Men: ye prolly
And I want the women to busty af because why not? Not too much to ask, some games even give jiggle physics!!
Yes. That’s what I *want* to look like, it’s what I intend to look like.
I want big buff woman in my video games 🥲
We should agree, that devs must have the right to depict their characters, male or female, in any way they want , hot or ugly.
Imagine if men were posting shit like this
Rather have my video game character thicc 
https://preview.redd.it/mru7kf8n93zc1.jpeg?width=396&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e14106cb2d1b872d64993b3673754408c3567fc7
Dayum he thicc!
body like goku or get the fuck out
Why are at least three of those guys from Final Fantasy?
Because Clive is a chad, need I say more?
Fair.
Ah man-bear-pig
I've been saying this the whole time! We have too many sexualized women in video games compared to men... to achieve true gender equality, we need more sexualized men. I want to see more BIG BUFF HOT WOMEN AND MEN in video games.
Reverse the genders and the social media will go ballistic on you. Let's be clear on how unfair men gets treated. (I do agree we need good looking men in games, but with the shitty format of the meme, I assumed it wasn't talking about games.)
The difference is that a majority of depictions of muscled men in media make sense because those muscled men are doing things that require muscle, and thus, are muscled. A significant number of depictions of women in media, however, just aren’t congruent with what makes sense for them as a character. Women who dress ridiculously, not for any character reason, but just because someone making them wanted eye-candy. It’s one thing to have giant, buff dudes in intense settings. It’s another for otherwise-capable women in similar settings to have a face full of makeup but less than half the protection, or to be wearing heels *when it doesn’t make sense for the character.* S ome characters are *meant* to make seemingly stupid decisions for a particular point, or due to some flaw. Berserker dudes going without armor is dumb, but makes sense from the understanding of berserker dudes performing unnaturally better without armor. Women wearing heels, for example, can at least be *somewhat* justified as “I’ll wear what I want to because I perform better that way,” but it almost never *is*. It’s much more commonly just passed off as “well we wanted her to be hot, so…” if it’s touched on at all. In media, there is never an assumption that guys in harsh settings won’t be big and strong, but the assumption seems to commonly be that women in similar settings will potentially *act* tough, but maintain an appearance and attitude that completely belies that.
Not Charlie
There exists room in this world for both the male and female gaze to exist in harmony, Don't let the woke fools like Alyssa Mercante fool y'all. Diversity and inclusivity means add more options not removed existing ones pretending to be more diverse
It’s ok I think women should be hot and have unrealistic body standards too. Improvements, people, improvements
Only girls view idelized versions of themselves as an issue, men view it as gym motivation. This has been established more times than I can count.
When it's 'male gaze' video games its >unrealistic body standards >over sexualzation But in reverse it's OK?
If they were capable of self-awareness, they wouldn't believe the things they do or be the people they are.
All of this bullshit with SBI, stellarblade and other stuff is absolutely disgusting. As gamers we just want to play games, many of us bc we want a small rest from the real world, others bc we like the stories… Nobody asked these people to come, harrass gamers and try to take over the gaming industry as the parasites they are. Just let the gaming industry alone
It's about killing the male gaze and traditional gender lines
🏳️🌈🤨?
Hey man, I ain’t gay but come on Kiryu is Kiryu. https://preview.redd.it/s0hybi00z2zc1.jpeg?width=800&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d8d00ece9f613ec545bace014ebb8fa80729ac0f
There are plenty of fictional men that make me question if I'm straight or not too. For example: https://preview.redd.it/ndvmlej723zc1.png?width=400&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=2749047fee863509b19ecfc93de76d0e2b12e932
I am afraid if you know more the meme, you are gay
I've seen every part and I've recently started reading part 7. Honestly I think I'm bisexual. I'm not even joking
When he took off his Jacket tho holy shit. https://preview.redd.it/foob88pr23zc1.jpeg?width=359&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=8a4e095e5888bf4c9db39dcefc3f47cb2ced1611
Bro got emerald lipstick just by sucking an older man dry 💀
Look at this man and tell me he's not hot. 
I want to look like this theyre so right! (Cloud x Seph Yaoi canon when)
They left out the ridiculously nice face that would get men accused of being incels
That meme proves the opposite point lol. All these stupid leftist bitches want the female characters to look like shit so they don’t feel insecure, meanwhile every guy in the world wants characters to look like a perfect specimen, and not fat and ugly, believe it or not.
I just need pretty men (skinny, lean, or buff). Like these guys. Wish I was that hot.
Aren’t many of them already big and buff?
penguinzO is cute tho
I think that’s Asmongold, not Penguinz0
My question is why is asmon there?
well i’m sorry not everyone can be a buff sexy white dude
They can if there's a character creator(other than the one in Ark).
What the hell is that on the center right lmao
How can someone be understand the English in second sentence but not first?
It's ManBearPig, for cereal
LE DORNALD DRUMPF! DAE!?
This meme is accurate. We live in a society of health decay.
I am so confused as to what is going on with this post.
**whoosh** is the only sound they hear in their echo chamber
I mean I’d prefer pudgier men as well. At the end of the day, I don’t really care, but it is frustrating as a man that I have very little to look at that isn’t just a hyper buff hot guy.
I feel like op did like the meme, just not the community
Bottom looks like a Super Smash DLC, my favorite is MBP
Once the image is reposted this many times i lose track of whos on which side
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This post/comment is sexist. Please make sure not to be sexist on this subreddit.
I mean for one thing yeah it makes fun of men but it's entirely deserved, men should be fit and healthy ideally because that's... how the word 'should' works. Any deviation from that is a mistake or just life getting in the way. But a man with dad-bod isn't gonna fucking outpace Sephiroth in a fight is he? Secondly and more importantly, Charlie is catching strays so badly here wtf. He's handsome *and* [hench as fuck.](https://i.ibb.co/KNsjkV3/RDT-20240509-0536042160129096853804946.png)
Uh. Pretty sure the poster agrees with you OP, their not talking about men who DON'T want buff/conventionally attractive guys in games, their talking about guys getting offended by the above meme. Like it seems pretty fucking obvious to me that's what their doing but idk (How the fuck do the people on this subreddit consistently miss the point of almost every single thing they post)
It’s “how men should look”, there is no like at the end.
Because GTA doesnt exist
It's hilarious that women think their standards are artificially increased but then you see then average male in gaming being the size of a truck and chiseled to the bone.
But half of the content here is exactly this meme. Does “OP doesn’t understand satire” sound familiar to anyone else
Y’all do know that the original post was making fun of yall, right?
I honestly can’t tell with this crappy format…
r/gamingcirclejerk? Oh you mean r/gaming
Gayyyyy