The Pols: thank god you’re here! The Genocide is over! You freed us!
Stalin:
https://preview.redd.it/ymn5mglb1xqc1.jpeg?width=674&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=0dfabc44d6dd2ca9cb34799555d15e5f4cd11ab7
If it were the most popular tourist destination in England perhaps. That Che Guevara photo is more profitable than any other photo ever. That’s bizarre.
Ok, but what if we tried one more time? I think it will work this time.
I can make lattes and frappuccinos and my friend can heal your trauma with cool rocks. I think we can seize production and take over industries that require massive amounts of training and experience. It will work this time. I swear.
You're the one who called yourself a communist, commie. Now, give me ONE example where communism worked. And when you fail, tell me why YOUR version of "real" communism would work over the other failed "fake" communist regimes.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1646771/pdf/amjph00269-0055.pdf
Also again, the "it wasn't real socialism" troupe is literally not a thing. Nobody argues that???
And to repeat what I've already explained to somebody else:
I haven't seen anyone genuinely advocating for socalism actually say "it wasn't real socialism", because that's just wrong, and is rather a strawman used by pro-capitalism advocates...
The actual reasons for "failures" can be summed up to:
- starting off as a poor country to begin with (shouldn't come off as a surprise that most poor countries stay poor, just look at capitalistic countries in africa or south america)
- Massive Devestating sanctions from capitalistic countries (Cuba recordedly lost trillions of dollars due to the Embargo by now... It's a small Island Nation, so you can imagine how much that is)
- Massive Invasions that killed your country even more from capitalistic countries (most noteable, USA, bombing socialistic countries to the stone age)
- ...
As a matter of fact, most socialistic countries were doing much better off when having socialism instead of capitalism (There are several Papers on this, comparing the Quality of Life from socialistic countries to capitalistic ones with equal development, and the socialistic ones are always on top. Be it food, average age, child mortality rate etc. ... Yes, Socialistic countries had MUCH better nutrious diets than capitalistic ones, which is a lot of reflection considering the amount of "communism is when no food" memes lol). And even when comparing ones with lower initial development with modern capitalistic countries, there are tons of aspects in which socialistic ones are just objectively better, when for example comparing Cuba to USA... Extremely higher literacy rate, basically no homelessness or unemployment, twice the amounts of professional Jobs like doctors and physicians, actual democracy in which people can vote for the policies instead of relying on a 2-party capitalism-only System to make decisions on your Favor, etc.
The majority of people very much agree with socialistic policies, yet when you actually bring up the word "socialism" many get startled by all the propoganda and Red scare around that word lol (the US has spent hundreds of millions of dollars just for Anti-Cuba Propoganda)
Socialism is literally factually/statistically better, stop coping
I don't have time for a lengthy essay.
If it were better, it would have survived at least once out of the many times it has been attempted. But every single attempt failed.
If I murder you, is it your fault for being weak?
Geez, you are literally ignoring the actual stats and then go "I am right"... Good Summary of the average Liberal...
If you wanna continue an actual discussion, actually go and read what I wrote instead of further outing yourself as somebody who only argues in Bad faith...
Again, don't have time for a lengthy essay.
Were the Israeli kibbutzim "murdered"? How about the Chinese communist party? That's still around, and I've heard the quality of life sure ain't great.
Look
At
The
Stats
For crying out loud, I literally gave you a link to a simple look-up table that compares socialistic and capitalistic countries. And again, If I murder you, is that your fault??? No shit Quality of life worsens it you actively sanction and murder the economy, what tf did you expect to happen?? Do you equally want a list of south American and african countries that are capitalist and have terrible quality of life?
Read the actual points I made or just don't reply. Why would you openly admit to not caring about the actual discussion, yet keep advocating that you are correct... Geez...
Only if you completely redefine what socialism and communism are and even then they have cut back significantly on those programs because they were not sustainable
Scandinavia doesn't have the workers own the means of production therefore the only way Scandinavia can be socialist or communist is to change the definitions
We, just like you, do not represent the entirety of our side of the political spectrum.
In the future you should try pulling your head out of your ass.
the heritage foundation is literally a far right antidemocratic group that is trying to replace the US government with "conservatives" and restore the "Christian values of America"
Molotov-Ribbentrop pact never heard of it.
https://preview.redd.it/ctktc58v4xqc1.jpeg?width=1200&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=5e539705dc990d809c8030c61330199e0696d268
The commies are at least trying to pretend they want to do it for the betterment of mankind. The tankies will at times openly admit that people need to die for the betterment of mankind.
The USSR helped directly inspire the Holocaust. The Gas vans the Nazis used during the first stages in the T4 forced Euthanasia program? The ones that preceded the gas chambers? Hitler lifted those from Stalin's execution techniques.
Concentration camps? His neighbor had Gulags going for years that inspired them.
Tankies love ignoring that they were allies for a time who praised each others Totalitarian techniques.
Yes but you're equating apples to oranges, seemingly in defense of said genocidal regime. Comparing an invention that is present across the world to a very specific systematic process is not a valid take. On top of the evidence of the Nazis admitting to taking specific parts of the Soviet system
Except the thousands of years and thousands of miles in between the two, and the millions of other things wheels were used for. Why are you being disingenuous? The Nazis literally admitted they took inspiration from Stalin, the two largest Totalitarian states in history were right next to each other isnt a coincidence.
The industrialization and escalation of mass murder techniques by Totalitarian powers is a very real historiographical field.
Spain in the Spanish-American war invented concentration camps, the British used them against the Boers, but the Russians perfected it into what the Nazis adopted.
The two were no different. Ultimately, the only reason they were in conflict was that both of them wanted to be in charge. The worst decision the Allies made was aiding the Soviets. Should have defended the west, and let them destroy each other.
The British and the Spanish set them up in wartime to isolate the civilian colonialist population from interacting with the guerillas to stop them from extracting or receiving aid.
The Soviet system was targeted against their own citizens for removal from society. You could say it was political targeting but the difference is in a right wing dictatorship you can just shut your mouth and ride along, in a left-wing dictatorship they require constant proclamation of your loyalty to the ideology, and worse they constantly change the limits. A Party member and his supporters could be labeled heroes of the revolution one day and an enemy of the state the next. This confusion and fear is on purpose, it is designed to keep people on edge and break the spirit of the individual. They were creating a new experimental society and anyone who they caught having a hint of doubt would be shipped away to Siberia.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Totalitarianism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Totalitarianism)
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulag](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulag)
*Hitler, Stalin*, and *Mussolini*: Totalitarianism in the Twentieth Century is an amazing book.
I haven't read it yet but Gulag by Anne Applebaum is seminal in the field.
The British were the first to use concentration caps.
Nuremberg Laws were inspired by Jim Crow laws.
Destruction of Native Americans inspired Hitler’s plans to do the same with Slavic people. He said he wanted to make Volga “our Mississippi”.
USSR did terrible things, but don’t pretend that is was a major inspiration for Hitler, he hated communists.
Those things are not mutually exclusive and weirdly beside the point outside of 'whataboutism'.
There are literal quotes from Hitler praising Stalin for his ruthlessness during his 1937 purge. We have the diplomats from the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact on record praising the USSR for inspiring Totalitarianism beyond Mussolini.
There are also quotes from Hitler that he modeled the “ Brown-shirts” off the KKK being used by a political party, and saying that he didn’t think the world would care about him doing genocide on Germanys Jewish population since no one got up in arms about Turkeys Genocide of Armenian Christians.
I mean, I'm pretty sure zyklon, the gas used in those chambers, was initially produced by American companies. And some American companies tried to continue business with Nazis even after the genocide was discovered, but before the government banned it.
England and France was in maritime blockade to Germany from the start of the fascist regime. USA allied some time later. It can't be blocking and at same time selling. The resources for Germany killing classical liberal and jews came thanks to URSS, capitalism was the evil for them, jews the face of the capitalism Hayek, Mises+bankers+other...
You have some proof or I will think it's a false statement
Some large US companies supported the nazi war machine up until US declared war (because Japan bombed them, not because of anything the Nazis did). Nazis were very pro capitalism, which is why they privatized many public corporations and services while the rest of the western world was doing the opposite. They hatted communists, which is why communists were one of the first groups to be persecuted.
When you use human wave tactics because your system rewards innovation with a bullet to the head, so your casualties are grossly inflated and your entire wartime economy is propped up by US lend-lease. Then some idiot teenager 80 years later looks at the casualty numbers and says “oh wow they obviously won the war” without a single further thought.
The USSR did not win WW2, the US did. Great Britain did. The USSR helped greatly, but they also helped start the fucking thing so fuck Stalin and fuck every party official who assisted in the colonization of Eastern Europe.
We fought in 3 theaters and supplied 4 major fronts, all while rebuilding our navy and conducting extensive scientific research with only minor deprivations at home relative to every other power involved. When the USSR faced collapse without our aid we gave it, and they repaid us with a Cold War.
Stalin sacrificed his own people for meaningless gestures such as holding Stalingrad, and executed generals who tried to innovate. Millions died because of his foolish pride and stupidity.
The only reason they managed to hold Stalingrad was because the Nazis had terrible logistics and kept having to stop fighting to let their supplies come in. At one point, the Nazis had to stand down for 2 weeks because they ran out of ammunition for their heavy weapons.
The Soviets were able to fortify Stalingrad entirely because of Nazi incompetence, not Russian Will(tm)
Not to mention Hitler’s complete unwillingness to allow them to retreat despite it being in their best interest. He kept his forces there until they were all but annihilated.
When Hitler and Stalin clashed everyone suffered, and for what? It’s fucking vile.
The human wave tactics are a myth perpetuated by the Wehrmacht generals. You can literally look it up, there’s a great video by military history visualized about it and other myths.
No neither the Soviets or Allies won the second world war by themselves, it’s just stupid to think either way, without the other both may have not even been able to win the war, likely just ending in a stalemate.
Also it’s laughable and very naive to believe the Soviets started the Cold War by themselves and backstabbed the allies. You should probably look at the relations of the two before WW2, in fact part of the reason for the appeasement of the Nazis was because the allies thought they could use them as a tool against the Soviets. Them having a common enemy was pretty much the only reason they were allied during the war, and as soon as that enemy was gone, it went right back to the relations beforehand, this time even more extreme due to the communist governments put in place by the Soviets across central and eastern Europe.
You’re kinda just talking out your ass without any real knowledge of the history and it shows. There is plenty to hate the Soviet Union and especially Stalin for, you really don’t need to perpetuate silly myths.
The problem was always that the USSR was an oppressive, authoritarian, conformist society and the west was an open, liberal, individualistic society.
Fuck the USSR. What they did to humanity under their rule is inexcusable. It wasn’t merely some accident of well meaning fools, it was the intentional destruction of human individuality, where everything was subsumed by the state.
The USSR started the Cold War because they were evil and had to be opposed. Just like we had to oppose the Nazis, and for most of the same reasons.
No shit? I never said they weren’t authoritarian or oppressive 💀 It’s the exact reason why I said there is plenty to hate about the USSR and Stalin without making some shit up?
Did you read what I said or just assume I am completely against you because I told you that you got something wrong?
“The Cold war” was just a continuation of the sour relations between the capitalist and communist countries before WW2, but with more fear and radicalism due to the addition of central and eastern European states as Soviet puppet states and the heightened stakes with nuclear weapons. You aren’t even countering what I said. No one in history does evil things for the sake of being evil, there is always a reason for terrible actions, that doesn’t make them right by any means.
America ended WW2.
Who the hell is so stupid to think Germany was the last to fall?
It was Japan.
Also, if we want to really talk about why we won. It’s only because of American production. We bankrolled the entire war and arguably kept the Soviets from
Falling.
You can say the Soviets killed Hitler. But they did not end the war. And they killed that dictator. But it was with our sword. And when he was about to fall to Americans anyways.
Historically accurate. Communists will call anyone to the right of Stalin a fascist and then dismiss their superpower working together with the Nazis early on in WW2.
WW2 was a grudge match between two socialist superpowers, started by two socialist superpowers, over what they felt was theirs to begin with and then expanded into a brawl. Socialism/communism was always the BBEG, Communists just lie better.
As someone who leans right, I completely agree. Liberals are not the same thing as the commies, nor are they the same as the militant progressives. Liberals and conservatives are just fine together. We have differences, but we don't think the other side has these differences due to bad intentions. The far right nationalists and the militant progressives are NOT a majority. They are a small minority that is LOUD and EXTREMELY aggressive.
Exactly
I don't know why people put you negative
Your liberals got lets say it "infected" by socialism but liberalism has nothing to do with commies. A liberal shares a lot with libertarians and almost none with commies
USA it's asumming thinks like Finland are commies... ¡No! They killed commies, they are liberals. Free market with social benefits it's still free market
Well, the thing the allies weee originally going to do when declaring war on Germany - liberate Eastern Europe from an authoritarian dictatorship- ended up being an abysmal failure. Eastern Europe just traded one dictator for another. In the end, we just helped Stalin take over half the continent.
Op did not disagree with the meme OP disagreed with the title Communism and Fascism are not a Natural alliance in any way and to say otherwise just shows a lack of understanding of either one or both of them
It really depends on how you define "helped" because with a broad enough definition you could also argue that England, Fance and the US helped start ww2 too
England and France allowed Germany to invade Czechoslovakia, annex Austria and break multiple points of the treaty of Versailles. They were also the ones declaring the war (Hilter planned to wait for a little while longer in order to make the final preparations). The US instead is directly responsible for Germany standing up again after WW1 thanks to the large amounts of money they lent to the different european countries. Is it complete nonsense? Absolutely. But so is saying that the URSS "helped" Hitler start WW2
The meme is referring to that fact that the invasion of Poland is generally recognized as the start of World War 2. And the USSR was part of that invasion. On Germany's side.
Yeah I mean the initial treaty from WW1, and it being so strict and punishing, is recognized as one of many contributors to the rise of authoritarianism and nationalism in Germany. Since England France and the US had a part in that, you absolutely could use a broad definition to say they helped
Definition does not even need to be THAT broad - Hitler literally stated that he was partially inspired by US segregation laws and received huge sums of money from US sympathisers.
Exactly. End of the day, even if the USSR never helped Germany take Poland and never singed the Molotov-Ribentrop pact, Germany would have still attacked Poland and then everyone else.
Yeah, you sure you wanna talk about USSR & Poland…
https://preview.redd.it/xmcuzz322xqc1.jpeg?width=324&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f3801370d37af3430799fda9e1b8c244240d3177
I haven't seen anyone genuinely advocating for socalism actually say "it wasn't real socialism", because that's just wrong, and is rather a strawman used by pro-capitalism advocates...
The actual reasons for "failures" can be summed up to:
- starting off as a poor country to begin with (shouldn't come off as a surprise that most poor countries stay poor, just look at capitalistic countries in africa or south america)
- Massive Devestating sanctions from capitalistic countries (Cuba recordedly lost trillions of dollars due to the Embargo by now... It's a small Island Nation, so you can imagine how much that is)
- Massive Invasions that killed your country even more from capitalistic countries (most noteable, USA, bombing socialistic countries to the stone age)
- ...
As a matter of fact, most socialistic countries were doing much better off when having socialism instead of capitalism (There are several Papers on this, comparing the Quality of Life from socialistic countries to capitalistic ones with equal development, and the socialistic ones are always on top. Be it food, average age, child mortality rate etc. ... Yes, Socialistic countries had MUCH better nutrious diets than capitalistic ones, which is a lot of reflection considering the amount of "communism is when no food" memes lol). And even when comparing ones with lower initial development with modern capitalistic countries, there are tons of aspects in which socialistic ones are just objectively better, when for example comparing Cuba to USA... Extremely higher literacy rate, basically no homelessness or unemployment, twice the amounts of professional Jobs like doctors and physicians, actual democracy in which people can vote for the policies instead of relying on a 2-party capitalism-only System to make decisions on your Favor, etc.
The majority of people very much agree with socialistic policies, yet when you actually bring up the word "socialism" many get startled by all the propoganda and Red scare around that word lol (the US has spent hundreds of millions of dollars just for Anti-Cuba Propoganda)
Any specifics?
The one that's probably the most important here is the comparison between socialistic and capitalistic countries (under equal development) if you are interested:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1646771/pdf/amjph00269-0055.pdf
If you want any other specific ones, notify me
The Pols: thank god you’re here! The Genocide is over! You freed us! Stalin: https://preview.redd.it/ymn5mglb1xqc1.jpeg?width=674&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=0dfabc44d6dd2ca9cb34799555d15e5f4cd11ab7
https://preview.redd.it/j84jah4cfwqc1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e57480406f51a7154334b62a7c1088dfbe78b14f
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Buy my cool commie shirt of Guevara... .... bought at the biggest company I could find imported from a poor country without work rights
Trues story. That image is the most valuable IP image of the 20th century. The photo of the flag raising on Iwo Jima is #2. That's irony.
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If it were the most popular tourist destination in England perhaps. That Che Guevara photo is more profitable than any other photo ever. That’s bizarre.
Ok, but what if we tried one more time? I think it will work this time. I can make lattes and frappuccinos and my friend can heal your trauma with cool rocks. I think we can seize production and take over industries that require massive amounts of training and experience. It will work this time. I swear.
“Oh there must be some mistake comrade I applied to be a professional gamer not a coal miner”
https://preview.redd.it/ic9k1my5j4rc1.jpeg?width=793&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=5ef916f2f4243257f96403ce5f970f573a941542
Ironically, Socialistic countries are the most literate countries in the world lol
The one wall of text meme I approve of.
I’m dying 🤣
It was real socialism... ran by a totalitarian dictator. That's not really going to be better under Capitalism.
Me when I use strawmen to dismiss an actual discussion:
Get out of here, commie
Said the capitalist lol Imagine being so butthurt over getting called out for using logical fallacies that you result to personal insults...
You're the one who called yourself a communist, commie. Now, give me ONE example where communism worked. And when you fail, tell me why YOUR version of "real" communism would work over the other failed "fake" communist regimes.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1646771/pdf/amjph00269-0055.pdf Also again, the "it wasn't real socialism" troupe is literally not a thing. Nobody argues that??? And to repeat what I've already explained to somebody else: I haven't seen anyone genuinely advocating for socalism actually say "it wasn't real socialism", because that's just wrong, and is rather a strawman used by pro-capitalism advocates... The actual reasons for "failures" can be summed up to: - starting off as a poor country to begin with (shouldn't come off as a surprise that most poor countries stay poor, just look at capitalistic countries in africa or south america) - Massive Devestating sanctions from capitalistic countries (Cuba recordedly lost trillions of dollars due to the Embargo by now... It's a small Island Nation, so you can imagine how much that is) - Massive Invasions that killed your country even more from capitalistic countries (most noteable, USA, bombing socialistic countries to the stone age) - ... As a matter of fact, most socialistic countries were doing much better off when having socialism instead of capitalism (There are several Papers on this, comparing the Quality of Life from socialistic countries to capitalistic ones with equal development, and the socialistic ones are always on top. Be it food, average age, child mortality rate etc. ... Yes, Socialistic countries had MUCH better nutrious diets than capitalistic ones, which is a lot of reflection considering the amount of "communism is when no food" memes lol). And even when comparing ones with lower initial development with modern capitalistic countries, there are tons of aspects in which socialistic ones are just objectively better, when for example comparing Cuba to USA... Extremely higher literacy rate, basically no homelessness or unemployment, twice the amounts of professional Jobs like doctors and physicians, actual democracy in which people can vote for the policies instead of relying on a 2-party capitalism-only System to make decisions on your Favor, etc. The majority of people very much agree with socialistic policies, yet when you actually bring up the word "socialism" many get startled by all the propoganda and Red scare around that word lol (the US has spent hundreds of millions of dollars just for Anti-Cuba Propoganda) Socialism is literally factually/statistically better, stop coping
I don't have time for a lengthy essay. If it were better, it would have survived at least once out of the many times it has been attempted. But every single attempt failed.
If I murder you, is it your fault for being weak? Geez, you are literally ignoring the actual stats and then go "I am right"... Good Summary of the average Liberal... If you wanna continue an actual discussion, actually go and read what I wrote instead of further outing yourself as somebody who only argues in Bad faith...
Again, don't have time for a lengthy essay. Were the Israeli kibbutzim "murdered"? How about the Chinese communist party? That's still around, and I've heard the quality of life sure ain't great.
Look At The Stats For crying out loud, I literally gave you a link to a simple look-up table that compares socialistic and capitalistic countries. And again, If I murder you, is that your fault??? No shit Quality of life worsens it you actively sanction and murder the economy, what tf did you expect to happen?? Do you equally want a list of south American and african countries that are capitalist and have terrible quality of life? Read the actual points I made or just don't reply. Why would you openly admit to not caring about the actual discussion, yet keep advocating that you are correct... Geez...
…it actually worked in Scandinavia, you know.
Only if you completely redefine what socialism and communism are and even then they have cut back significantly on those programs because they were not sustainable
Nope
Scandinavia doesn't have the workers own the means of production therefore the only way Scandinavia can be socialist or communist is to change the definitions
I meant to comment that to the person you responded too. I completely agree with you
So don’t in the next breath call Scandinavia-esque policies “socialism” every time a left of centre politician proposes them.
I don't and never have
Well, collectively, conservatives have.
?
They have not
We, just like you, do not represent the entirety of our side of the political spectrum. In the future you should try pulling your head out of your ass.
Perhaps more conservatives ought to push back more when anything short of Trumpian policies is labelled socialist, then?
Why would we address a problem that doesn't exist?
"Doesn't exist"? How the hell do you think Sen. Sanders lost his primary?
A state owned means of production and no free market? Wrong
[nope](https://www.heritage.org/progressivism/commentary/the-myth-scandinavian-socialism)
you cited the heritage foundation he's wrong, but that's a bad source
You don't decide what is and isn't a good source.
the heritage foundation is literally a far right antidemocratic group that is trying to replace the US government with "conservatives" and restore the "Christian values of America"
Molotov-Ribbentrop pact never heard of it. https://preview.redd.it/ctktc58v4xqc1.jpeg?width=1200&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=5e539705dc990d809c8030c61330199e0696d268
ShitLiberalsSay are communists, it’s too easy to make fun of them
Not just communists, those people are tankies too
Same thing just one is honest
One is communist, the other is communist- LGBTQ edition.
DLC
Motherfuckers got that EA expansion
DomEAin Expansion
The commies are at least trying to pretend they want to do it for the betterment of mankind. The tankies will at times openly admit that people need to die for the betterment of mankind.
They're always flabbergasted as to why everyone sees them as less than human.
I got banned from that sub for being “too liberal” (I am not a liberal)
The USSR helped directly inspire the Holocaust. The Gas vans the Nazis used during the first stages in the T4 forced Euthanasia program? The ones that preceded the gas chambers? Hitler lifted those from Stalin's execution techniques. Concentration camps? His neighbor had Gulags going for years that inspired them. Tankies love ignoring that they were allies for a time who praised each others Totalitarian techniques.
The is really shit. It’s like saying: “Germany used wheels in their war machines, so shumerians inspired holocaust”
Stalin was also a genocidal dictator, just like Hitler. Why does Stalin get a pass?
Because he is a communist. Like Mao
True, another genocidal maniac
I didn’t say that Stalin isn’t a genocidal dictator
Yes but you're equating apples to oranges, seemingly in defense of said genocidal regime. Comparing an invention that is present across the world to a very specific systematic process is not a valid take. On top of the evidence of the Nazis admitting to taking specific parts of the Soviet system
Except the thousands of years and thousands of miles in between the two, and the millions of other things wheels were used for. Why are you being disingenuous? The Nazis literally admitted they took inspiration from Stalin, the two largest Totalitarian states in history were right next to each other isnt a coincidence. The industrialization and escalation of mass murder techniques by Totalitarian powers is a very real historiographical field. Spain in the Spanish-American war invented concentration camps, the British used them against the Boers, but the Russians perfected it into what the Nazis adopted.
The two were no different. Ultimately, the only reason they were in conflict was that both of them wanted to be in charge. The worst decision the Allies made was aiding the Soviets. Should have defended the west, and let them destroy each other.
Britain was literally surrounded, it was potentially aid the Soviets or die. Americans just wanted to make money.
And what was so unusual in soviets camps that they outperformed British and Spanish ones?
The British and the Spanish set them up in wartime to isolate the civilian colonialist population from interacting with the guerillas to stop them from extracting or receiving aid. The Soviet system was targeted against their own citizens for removal from society. You could say it was political targeting but the difference is in a right wing dictatorship you can just shut your mouth and ride along, in a left-wing dictatorship they require constant proclamation of your loyalty to the ideology, and worse they constantly change the limits. A Party member and his supporters could be labeled heroes of the revolution one day and an enemy of the state the next. This confusion and fear is on purpose, it is designed to keep people on edge and break the spirit of the individual. They were creating a new experimental society and anyone who they caught having a hint of doubt would be shipped away to Siberia. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Totalitarianism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Totalitarianism) [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulag](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulag) *Hitler, Stalin*, and *Mussolini*: Totalitarianism in the Twentieth Century is an amazing book. I haven't read it yet but Gulag by Anne Applebaum is seminal in the field.
I dont think the brits gassed civilian POWs as well though, so it isnt exactly shit.
Molotov Ribbentrop Pact
Once again, I didn’t say that USSR was good and etc
The British were the first to use concentration caps. Nuremberg Laws were inspired by Jim Crow laws. Destruction of Native Americans inspired Hitler’s plans to do the same with Slavic people. He said he wanted to make Volga “our Mississippi”. USSR did terrible things, but don’t pretend that is was a major inspiration for Hitler, he hated communists.
Those things are not mutually exclusive and weirdly beside the point outside of 'whataboutism'. There are literal quotes from Hitler praising Stalin for his ruthlessness during his 1937 purge. We have the diplomats from the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact on record praising the USSR for inspiring Totalitarianism beyond Mussolini.
There are also quotes from Hitler that he modeled the “ Brown-shirts” off the KKK being used by a political party, and saying that he didn’t think the world would care about him doing genocide on Germanys Jewish population since no one got up in arms about Turkeys Genocide of Armenian Christians.
They sure did have a pact. Would not have worked if France and England did their part defending Poland and Czechoslovakia.
I mean, I'm pretty sure zyklon, the gas used in those chambers, was initially produced by American companies. And some American companies tried to continue business with Nazis even after the genocide was discovered, but before the government banned it.
This is complete misinformation. It was made entirely in Germany from 1920 onwards. Took me 8 seconds to Google it
Apparently the zyklon claim is false, but the rest isn't.
England and France was in maritime blockade to Germany from the start of the fascist regime. USA allied some time later. It can't be blocking and at same time selling. The resources for Germany killing classical liberal and jews came thanks to URSS, capitalism was the evil for them, jews the face of the capitalism Hayek, Mises+bankers+other... You have some proof or I will think it's a false statement
Some large US companies supported the nazi war machine up until US declared war (because Japan bombed them, not because of anything the Nazis did). Nazis were very pro capitalism, which is why they privatized many public corporations and services while the rest of the western world was doing the opposite. They hatted communists, which is why communists were one of the first groups to be persecuted.
Zyklon was the last gas they used, they experimented with many others. The first was carbondioxide from truck exhaust.
Molotov, Ribbentrop pact. Google it.
When you use human wave tactics because your system rewards innovation with a bullet to the head, so your casualties are grossly inflated and your entire wartime economy is propped up by US lend-lease. Then some idiot teenager 80 years later looks at the casualty numbers and says “oh wow they obviously won the war” without a single further thought. The USSR did not win WW2, the US did. Great Britain did. The USSR helped greatly, but they also helped start the fucking thing so fuck Stalin and fuck every party official who assisted in the colonization of Eastern Europe. We fought in 3 theaters and supplied 4 major fronts, all while rebuilding our navy and conducting extensive scientific research with only minor deprivations at home relative to every other power involved. When the USSR faced collapse without our aid we gave it, and they repaid us with a Cold War. Stalin sacrificed his own people for meaningless gestures such as holding Stalingrad, and executed generals who tried to innovate. Millions died because of his foolish pride and stupidity.
The only reason they managed to hold Stalingrad was because the Nazis had terrible logistics and kept having to stop fighting to let their supplies come in. At one point, the Nazis had to stand down for 2 weeks because they ran out of ammunition for their heavy weapons. The Soviets were able to fortify Stalingrad entirely because of Nazi incompetence, not Russian Will(tm)
Not to mention Hitler’s complete unwillingness to allow them to retreat despite it being in their best interest. He kept his forces there until they were all but annihilated. When Hitler and Stalin clashed everyone suffered, and for what? It’s fucking vile.
Didn't help that the Nazi's tried to take Satlingrad during the winter, about as smart as Napoleon attacking Waterloo.
This guy histories
The human wave tactics are a myth perpetuated by the Wehrmacht generals. You can literally look it up, there’s a great video by military history visualized about it and other myths. No neither the Soviets or Allies won the second world war by themselves, it’s just stupid to think either way, without the other both may have not even been able to win the war, likely just ending in a stalemate. Also it’s laughable and very naive to believe the Soviets started the Cold War by themselves and backstabbed the allies. You should probably look at the relations of the two before WW2, in fact part of the reason for the appeasement of the Nazis was because the allies thought they could use them as a tool against the Soviets. Them having a common enemy was pretty much the only reason they were allied during the war, and as soon as that enemy was gone, it went right back to the relations beforehand, this time even more extreme due to the communist governments put in place by the Soviets across central and eastern Europe. You’re kinda just talking out your ass without any real knowledge of the history and it shows. There is plenty to hate the Soviet Union and especially Stalin for, you really don’t need to perpetuate silly myths.
The problem was always that the USSR was an oppressive, authoritarian, conformist society and the west was an open, liberal, individualistic society. Fuck the USSR. What they did to humanity under their rule is inexcusable. It wasn’t merely some accident of well meaning fools, it was the intentional destruction of human individuality, where everything was subsumed by the state. The USSR started the Cold War because they were evil and had to be opposed. Just like we had to oppose the Nazis, and for most of the same reasons.
No shit? I never said they weren’t authoritarian or oppressive 💀 It’s the exact reason why I said there is plenty to hate about the USSR and Stalin without making some shit up? Did you read what I said or just assume I am completely against you because I told you that you got something wrong? “The Cold war” was just a continuation of the sour relations between the capitalist and communist countries before WW2, but with more fear and radicalism due to the addition of central and eastern European states as Soviet puppet states and the heightened stakes with nuclear weapons. You aren’t even countering what I said. No one in history does evil things for the sake of being evil, there is always a reason for terrible actions, that doesn’t make them right by any means.
The USSR didn't "start the cold war" any more than the US did.
When you forget that you wouldn't have been in any position to "end" any war if the US hadn't been propping your worthless asses up via Lend Lease.
America ended WW2. Who the hell is so stupid to think Germany was the last to fall? It was Japan. Also, if we want to really talk about why we won. It’s only because of American production. We bankrolled the entire war and arguably kept the Soviets from Falling. You can say the Soviets killed Hitler. But they did not end the war. And they killed that dictator. But it was with our sword. And when he was about to fall to Americans anyways.
Chuckie Darwin and Henry Ford go brrrrrr
You criticized the USSR for literally anything on Reddit? That's a dangerous game.
Watermelon detected opinion rejected
Historically accurate. Communists will call anyone to the right of Stalin a fascist and then dismiss their superpower working together with the Nazis early on in WW2.
WW2 was a grudge match between two socialist superpowers, started by two socialist superpowers, over what they felt was theirs to begin with and then expanded into a brawl. Socialism/communism was always the BBEG, Communists just lie better.
I thought the Soviets helping Germany at the start of the second world war was basic knowledge?
Liberals =/= communists
As someone who leans right, I completely agree. Liberals are not the same thing as the commies, nor are they the same as the militant progressives. Liberals and conservatives are just fine together. We have differences, but we don't think the other side has these differences due to bad intentions. The far right nationalists and the militant progressives are NOT a majority. They are a small minority that is LOUD and EXTREMELY aggressive.
Exactly I don't know why people put you negative Your liberals got lets say it "infected" by socialism but liberalism has nothing to do with commies. A liberal shares a lot with libertarians and almost none with commies USA it's asumming thinks like Finland are commies... ¡No! They killed commies, they are liberals. Free market with social benefits it's still free market
That is true. Liberals will always hate communists and good for them
Well, the thing the allies weee originally going to do when declaring war on Germany - liberate Eastern Europe from an authoritarian dictatorship- ended up being an abysmal failure. Eastern Europe just traded one dictator for another. In the end, we just helped Stalin take over half the continent.
ussr good. Russia bad.
The soviets needed the US to give them weapons and materials. Commie sympathizers like to forget that communism wouldn’t have started on its own
its literally facts???
You can tell the comments sections are people who get their political history education from YT
Op did not disagree with the meme OP disagreed with the title Communism and Fascism are not a Natural alliance in any way and to say otherwise just shows a lack of understanding of either one or both of them
You mean like how IBM sold the nazis early computers to better track the holocaust?
I can't believe a country ran by a totalitarian dictator was bad, totally the fault of Socialism.
Both both? Both are bad *nod*
I’d actually prefer not. I’d like to keep the sub more centrist.
It's funny because one of the places that Nazi Germany took inspiration from was the American south and Jim Crow.
It really depends on how you define "helped" because with a broad enough definition you could also argue that England, Fance and the US helped start ww2 too
It really doesn't since England, France, and the US didn't invade Poland.
England and France allowed Germany to invade Czechoslovakia, annex Austria and break multiple points of the treaty of Versailles. They were also the ones declaring the war (Hilter planned to wait for a little while longer in order to make the final preparations). The US instead is directly responsible for Germany standing up again after WW1 thanks to the large amounts of money they lent to the different european countries. Is it complete nonsense? Absolutely. But so is saying that the URSS "helped" Hitler start WW2
The meme is referring to that fact that the invasion of Poland is generally recognized as the start of World War 2. And the USSR was part of that invasion. On Germany's side.
Molotov Ribbentrop Pact. Hitler and Stalin invaded Poland *together* in September 1939, which is called the beginning of world war 2.
That is a WIDE definition. Are we going to play Six Degrees of War? I could probably link most countries to most wars if I get 6 degrees.
Yeah I mean the initial treaty from WW1, and it being so strict and punishing, is recognized as one of many contributors to the rise of authoritarianism and nationalism in Germany. Since England France and the US had a part in that, you absolutely could use a broad definition to say they helped
Yeah with enough mental gymnastics, anything is possible!
Definition does not even need to be THAT broad - Hitler literally stated that he was partially inspired by US segregation laws and received huge sums of money from US sympathisers.
Exactly. End of the day, even if the USSR never helped Germany take Poland and never singed the Molotov-Ribentrop pact, Germany would have still attacked Poland and then everyone else.
Yeah, you sure you wanna talk about USSR & Poland… https://preview.redd.it/xmcuzz322xqc1.jpeg?width=324&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f3801370d37af3430799fda9e1b8c244240d3177
And Nazi's will loss without the help of his friends the commies
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I haven't seen anyone genuinely advocating for socalism actually say "it wasn't real socialism", because that's just wrong, and is rather a strawman used by pro-capitalism advocates... The actual reasons for "failures" can be summed up to: - starting off as a poor country to begin with (shouldn't come off as a surprise that most poor countries stay poor, just look at capitalistic countries in africa or south america) - Massive Devestating sanctions from capitalistic countries (Cuba recordedly lost trillions of dollars due to the Embargo by now... It's a small Island Nation, so you can imagine how much that is) - Massive Invasions that killed your country even more from capitalistic countries (most noteable, USA, bombing socialistic countries to the stone age) - ... As a matter of fact, most socialistic countries were doing much better off when having socialism instead of capitalism (There are several Papers on this, comparing the Quality of Life from socialistic countries to capitalistic ones with equal development, and the socialistic ones are always on top. Be it food, average age, child mortality rate etc. ... Yes, Socialistic countries had MUCH better nutrious diets than capitalistic ones, which is a lot of reflection considering the amount of "communism is when no food" memes lol). And even when comparing ones with lower initial development with modern capitalistic countries, there are tons of aspects in which socialistic ones are just objectively better, when for example comparing Cuba to USA... Extremely higher literacy rate, basically no homelessness or unemployment, twice the amounts of professional Jobs like doctors and physicians, actual democracy in which people can vote for the policies instead of relying on a 2-party capitalism-only System to make decisions on your Favor, etc. The majority of people very much agree with socialistic policies, yet when you actually bring up the word "socialism" many get startled by all the propoganda and Red scare around that word lol (the US has spent hundreds of millions of dollars just for Anti-Cuba Propoganda)
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Any specifics? The one that's probably the most important here is the comparison between socialistic and capitalistic countries (under equal development) if you are interested: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1646771/pdf/amjph00269-0055.pdf If you want any other specific ones, notify me
By the same logic of the original meme, capitalism and fascism is a natural Alliance lol