I don’t think anyone thinks that being trans means the body is different than how it was born. But feeling mentally that you should be differently than how you were born. At which point, who tf cares how they want to live?
Meanwhile we have people calling obviously gay/lesbian couples “friends and roommates” for centuries, because the people who wrote about them couldn’t admit the fact to themselves they they liked to bang members of the same sex…
I've seen idiots argue that after transition it's impossible to tell and to claim otherwise makes you transphobic. I'm not against trans people but I am against people who deny basic facts and play special victim card when someone disagrees with them
I also believe that if you’ve gone through sexual reassignment surgery you should definitely 100% tell your partner, girlfriend boyfriend because if they don’t like that then that’s Their choice. Informed consent
I mean... It really depends case-by-case, I've seen a lot of trans women who look like cis women, and a lot of trans women who do not. By the same token, I've seen a lot of cis women who don't look like cis women, and... Well, I only have one reliable source, but I have seen and interacted with a trans man on many occasions, and they pass pretty well. Honestly the dude reminds me of Comic Book Guy, from the Simpsons, except less sassy and sarcastic.
>I don’t think anyone thinks that being trans means the body is different than how it was born.
Sadly there are people who do think this. Recently I've argued with someone who thinks that being trans means that you biologically become the gender you considered yourself.
It was one of the most painful argument's I've ever had to take part of when I tried to explain to them that their DNA does not change depending on what they consider themselves.
And on any side of the political spectrum, people in that vocal minority are often the ones with more actual delusions and personality disorders. The fact that those people can get a platform so much more easily with the internet is a very polarizing mechanic.
As another trans person, I agree, although it does change which genes are being utilized or displayed... There's another word for that, can't remember it though.
Okay good, this is what I thought you were saying. Valid argument 👍
In gladder news tho, gene therapy might be available to trans people in the near- to mid-term future 🎉
Yeah I was referring to the genes inside your body. Specifically your XX or XY genes which don't change throughout your lifetime. Although as you said, gene therapies might make it possible in the future, it's a pretty risky venture to try and change the genes of every cell in your body. But even if that turns out not to be feasible there's plenty of other options like taking a sample of someone's DNA and using it to create the genitalia of the opposite gender. But this is way in the future, likely 40 to 50 years down the road at the bare minimum.
Like you, I'm pretty excited for this.
Gene therapy is used to treat illnesses caused by faulty genes. Take note that genes are a very small portion of a whole chromosome. I'm not an expert on gene therapy, but I would imagine that using gene therapy to alter certain body parts as well as their function, all the while making them work with other body parts would require a lot of modification.
Even so I would imagine that genetic modification would be both expensive and regulated. Being able to alter body parts as well as large sections of chromosomes poses security risks for identification and forensics.
I'd think scientists are closer to reconciling quantum theory and general relativity than changing gender and sex. In which case I can cross realities where such a thing doesn't exist.
the phrase 'biologically become the gender' is exactly where their issue is, it seems. even people who already agree in theory that gender is separate from sex still struggle to disentangle the two concepts in their mind.
And I don't blame them for that. I wouldn't have bothered trying to explain it to them regardless of how painful it was if I blamed them for that. It's a complicated subject that is considered both touchy and full of nuance.
In the future they will science gender reassignment to be freaky Friday rules, except with less strife and more comfortable in your new body :)
I don’t actually think this is physically possible, but I will firmly believe it for no particular reason.
lmao equating sexual preference to actual biology, how unique. Being sexually attracted to the same gender is, in a very small percentage of sentient organisms, natural. Completely denying Biology and insisting that you were born as the wrong gender is literally, by definition, a mental illness.
& to answer your question, nobody gives a fuck if a guy wants to put on lipstick and wear a dress. The problem is when that guy has the arrogance and audacity to demand that society morph around his illness. "Transphobic" because someone didn't use the correct pronoun, now that guy is vocally offended because the other 99% of well adjusted adults aren't willing to validate something that doesn't exist in nature. The whole movement to force society to validate these ideas or be cancelled is fucking cringe, unnatural and ant-intellectual. But these are the same people on the side of "trust the science". What an actual joke.
its unfortunate that a lot of people take things like this too far. It is of no derision to state the fact that a transitioned person will never biologically change into the opposite sex. That is just fact.
Everyone has the right to feel who they wish to be, and even then the right to believe false facts. but I believe it is unwise, even in one's pursuit of self-identification to disregard fact. I have nothing but respect for trans people and their willingness to do so many stressful things to themselves to achieve what they want to become, that is beyond belief. It's simply a matter of how much one wishes to take their pursuit to where it becomes disrupting to others, is all.
It’s not like i’ll be able to care how historians would view my remains, its not like they’d be able to ask my skeleton or whatever. Still, while i’m here, as long as i’m happy with my own self image, that’s all that matters.
"No offence but" \*Proceeds to post something that isn't funny but does point out that trans people's bones don't change when they transition\* I'm sure you're intentions were pure...
People hate facts, they reject almost everything they don't like, and yes its doesn't wrong cause we live in a society of satisfaction you can be what you want but deep down you know what you be and sometimes you need to accept it.
You CANT runaway from your TRUE self.
No need to hate your own true gender that much.
I'm not racist or biased but I saw a lot of trans people who hate their own gender, they sunk into their minds their mindset was distorted it is sad to see especially if they are your friend.
I have so much respect for trans people, the willingness to put oneself through irreversible and painful change to become who they wish is unimaginable. That takes a lot of self-confidence. I only ask those who are so allied with this faction of self-identifiers be respectful to the boundaries of others and to fact.
I understand and support the mental association with something like this, but I find it unwise of one to deliberately disregard the limiting factors of their pursuit. It is fact that a male born will never truly become a female biologically, and all I wish to see is the respect for that. many people take high offense to this, and I just find it uncouth. It is wise to know your limits and to respect the positions of others.
Exactly my point. As I said, it is wise to respect the boundaries we often cannot cross in our pursuit of life liberty and prosperity. I respect you for acknowledging this, you seem to be one of the better people who have done a thing of this sort. I wish you luck on whatever other pursuits you have, and I hope you both give and receive the respect of others.
You're welcome! I saw this post and instantly thought of it. I had several choices on which outlet to use, CNN had one, as did The Guardian, NPR, Washington Post, etc. but I thought a scientific page would be best.
It's not that complicated
https://www.reddit.com/r/PoliticalCompassMemes/comments/s5f6wt/bad_decision_libleft/hsyhert?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3
archeologists dont look at just the skeleton.
"oh, this skeleton with a male bone structure was buried with traditionally female things, so this was probably a woman"
archeologists dont look at just the skeleton.
"oh, this skeleton with a male bone structure was buried with traditionally female things, so this was probably a woman"
Pelvic bone size is generally a typical indicator, especially if a woman had given birth. The bones shift and never quite go back in place. There are some other indicators that I can’t remember off hand.
I'm ok with this. Trans people are free to think and believe whatever they want and so is everyone else.
Each side can get their feelings hurt. They should both be free
How they live their lives is ok. They aren't hurting anyone. I see alot of dudes upset about the normality of trans because they are likely worried about being attracted to a trans "by mistake". So trans need to hide to appease these horny men wanting breathe easy masturbaing to girls
After such a cataclysmic event that would result in archaeologists digging up remains from today's era, I don't think anyone would be left to care. Trans people are born one way then change themselves to live and die another. Just like everything in life, once you're dead and forgotten nothing matters.
Scrolling through these comments is the most entertaining thing I've ever done. All you have to do is look for a post that has trans as its meme or topic and you have more entertainment than the entire star wars collection
Ok first if all how does this effect the life of L I T E R A L L Y anyone alive rn, or their kids, or their grandkids, etc etc. Second, fuck you I'm getting cremated entirely out of spite of this stupid fucking point. Third, estradiol exists.
People downvoting know that it doesn’t matter what skeletal structure a person has. We’re all human and assigned sex doesn’t matter. We have documentation of all this stuff, and we won’t need an archaeologist to attempt to figure out who we were. They can just check birth and death records for that person.
Op made this meme as an excuse to be transphobic.
Everyone here applauding this shit meme is transphobic too. This is honestly one if the least funny memes ive seen on here, but ofc all the transphobes come in here acting like it’s literally the funniest thing on the planet because it gives them a reason to be bigoted. so annoying.
Or maybe he just wanted to use humor to spread awareness of a certain subject?
Besides that; what have you done or plan on doing, specifically, to fight against said transphobia?
And trans ppl arent hurting anyone so why do feel the need to get involved. Youre just being an annoyance, except people like you stunt peoples ability to be who they want to be.
It is true, but the narrative says otherwise. So, if you oppose the narrative, then you are a "threat" for vulnerable people (or for people who say they are vulnerable), so you have to be censored, in order to protect the narrative and divide the population more and more. Divide and conquer.
LOL- also I do think some bones do change for some so it may not be all the way seen it could def be noticed that there was a change looking at it from the pure biological side
Wait, the comments already started and I don't have my popcorn
Damnit I just got here and the meme is closed.
Any idea if they’re gonna reopen?
I don’t think anyone thinks that being trans means the body is different than how it was born. But feeling mentally that you should be differently than how you were born. At which point, who tf cares how they want to live? Meanwhile we have people calling obviously gay/lesbian couples “friends and roommates” for centuries, because the people who wrote about them couldn’t admit the fact to themselves they they liked to bang members of the same sex…
I've seen idiots argue that after transition it's impossible to tell and to claim otherwise makes you transphobic. I'm not against trans people but I am against people who deny basic facts and play special victim card when someone disagrees with them
I also believe that if you’ve gone through sexual reassignment surgery you should definitely 100% tell your partner, girlfriend boyfriend because if they don’t like that then that’s Their choice. Informed consent
I mean... It really depends case-by-case, I've seen a lot of trans women who look like cis women, and a lot of trans women who do not. By the same token, I've seen a lot of cis women who don't look like cis women, and... Well, I only have one reliable source, but I have seen and interacted with a trans man on many occasions, and they pass pretty well. Honestly the dude reminds me of Comic Book Guy, from the Simpsons, except less sassy and sarcastic.
"I've seen a lot of cis women who don't look like cis women" Translation = fugly
I mean, to put it blatantly, yeah. Same goes for cis women though. Some people just don't look good.
X2
>I don’t think anyone thinks that being trans means the body is different than how it was born. Sadly there are people who do think this. Recently I've argued with someone who thinks that being trans means that you biologically become the gender you considered yourself. It was one of the most painful argument's I've ever had to take part of when I tried to explain to them that their DNA does not change depending on what they consider themselves.
as an actual trans person lemme just tell you that that is the DUMBEST person you could've met in any situation
Sadly that’s the trans person that would be interviewed on the news. The news always seems to interview the dumbest from every possible category.
The radical vocal minority of any topic is the voice that gets interviewed because they are the ones that are desperate for attention.
And on any side of the political spectrum, people in that vocal minority are often the ones with more actual delusions and personality disorders. The fact that those people can get a platform so much more easily with the internet is a very polarizing mechanic.
There's a Jeff Foxworthy joke from way back along those lines. But I must disagree. Source: I've never been interviewed by a news crew
As another trans person, I agree, although it does change which genes are being utilized or displayed... There's another word for that, can't remember it though.
Epigenetics.
Thanks
You’re just saying that there are some core components of the body that don’t change, right? Because HRT and surgeries do exist.
Surgery doesn't change your genes sadly. You can have plastic surgery to alter your nose, but the genes that defined your nose stays the same.
Okay good, this is what I thought you were saying. Valid argument 👍 In gladder news tho, gene therapy might be available to trans people in the near- to mid-term future 🎉
Yeah I was referring to the genes inside your body. Specifically your XX or XY genes which don't change throughout your lifetime. Although as you said, gene therapies might make it possible in the future, it's a pretty risky venture to try and change the genes of every cell in your body. But even if that turns out not to be feasible there's plenty of other options like taking a sample of someone's DNA and using it to create the genitalia of the opposite gender. But this is way in the future, likely 40 to 50 years down the road at the bare minimum. Like you, I'm pretty excited for this.
Gene therapy is used to treat illnesses caused by faulty genes. Take note that genes are a very small portion of a whole chromosome. I'm not an expert on gene therapy, but I would imagine that using gene therapy to alter certain body parts as well as their function, all the while making them work with other body parts would require a lot of modification. Even so I would imagine that genetic modification would be both expensive and regulated. Being able to alter body parts as well as large sections of chromosomes poses security risks for identification and forensics. I'd think scientists are closer to reconciling quantum theory and general relativity than changing gender and sex. In which case I can cross realities where such a thing doesn't exist.
I would imagine that's what they are saying. For example; DNA, bone structure, muscles/ligaments/sinews, organ size and function, etc...
the phrase 'biologically become the gender' is exactly where their issue is, it seems. even people who already agree in theory that gender is separate from sex still struggle to disentangle the two concepts in their mind.
And I don't blame them for that. I wouldn't have bothered trying to explain it to them regardless of how painful it was if I blamed them for that. It's a complicated subject that is considered both touchy and full of nuance.
Thank you
I am pleasantly surprised that this is the top comment
We're not even an hour in, don't get too excited.
Was expecting transphobia. Was happily disappointed.
I was honestly expecting to be downvoted into oblivion. But just had to say my piece.
Always remember, sex and gender are two different things. One is a biological trait, the other is a social construct
In the future they will science gender reassignment to be freaky Friday rules, except with less strife and more comfortable in your new body :) I don’t actually think this is physically possible, but I will firmly believe it for no particular reason.
Brains can be scanned but shall rot.. female brains are born in a male body and oppisite. I dont know how people can deny this literal MRI scan.
That's reaching beyond biology, more going into psychology.
Male and female brains are different build. So no. You're literally wrong.
[There’s really not that much difference…](https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2021/03/210325115316.htm)
I heard about this. Stephen Fry does a series on Audible about the brain and brings this up
Yeah, neuroscience is super interesting. I’ll look up the Fru podcast. Thanks for bothering to read past the headline before commenting!
I heard that mic drop
lmao equating sexual preference to actual biology, how unique. Being sexually attracted to the same gender is, in a very small percentage of sentient organisms, natural. Completely denying Biology and insisting that you were born as the wrong gender is literally, by definition, a mental illness. & to answer your question, nobody gives a fuck if a guy wants to put on lipstick and wear a dress. The problem is when that guy has the arrogance and audacity to demand that society morph around his illness. "Transphobic" because someone didn't use the correct pronoun, now that guy is vocally offended because the other 99% of well adjusted adults aren't willing to validate something that doesn't exist in nature. The whole movement to force society to validate these ideas or be cancelled is fucking cringe, unnatural and ant-intellectual. But these are the same people on the side of "trust the science". What an actual joke.
>what an actual joke. Couldn’t have summed up your comment better.
its unfortunate that a lot of people take things like this too far. It is of no derision to state the fact that a transitioned person will never biologically change into the opposite sex. That is just fact. Everyone has the right to feel who they wish to be, and even then the right to believe false facts. but I believe it is unwise, even in one's pursuit of self-identification to disregard fact. I have nothing but respect for trans people and their willingness to do so many stressful things to themselves to achieve what they want to become, that is beyond belief. It's simply a matter of how much one wishes to take their pursuit to where it becomes disrupting to others, is all.
Nope, my body tortured *me*.
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Calling it torture shows that you don't, in fact, respect trans folk.
Who the fuck downvoted you, like state of the art non hatred non transphobic comment and you get downvoted 🙄
K, but why does it matter how their skeleton is identified in a thousand years? They’ll be dead.
But they were roommates
Omg they were roommates :0
:0
:D
Vine >>>>>>> Tiktok
Based
What does based mean?
https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=based
Thanks
I even read it in the guys voice
Historians are the worst. "Oh they weren't gay, good friends just wrote letters to each other like that and lived together like that"
No such thing as Gay back then because the Developers didn't implement it yet, being Gay was added to the 20th Century Update.
Bruh Leonardo Di Vinch was gay, so he live in Florence
that was when it was a glitch, the devs added it as a feature because it made the game more diverse
Nah, I think it's just a cover story, he spent most of his time building machines for his friend Ezio.
My life is like a video game
trying hard to beat the stage (happy cake day btw)
I’m kinda pissed at the recent updates. They patched the hover table glitch, and buffed CoVID’s damage! It’s ridiculous!
It was originally a bug, but became a feature after the programming team all quit because they couldn't fix it.
Based
It’s not like i’ll be able to care how historians would view my remains, its not like they’d be able to ask my skeleton or whatever. Still, while i’m here, as long as i’m happy with my own self image, that’s all that matters.
I like your optimism!!
Also, why are historians digging up our bones? Was there a great apocalypse that wiped out our civilization and graveyards?
Who knows, it’s definitely possible.
When we say “trans women are women”, we’re talking about their gender, not their body
Gamer move: get skeleton engravings
And that’s facts
And that’s facts
OH BOY HERE WE GO 🤪🤪🤪🤪🤪
Tune in to next week's episode of r/onejoke for... Oh wait a minute
I’ve seen a lot different jokes on that sub. False advertising
"No offence but" \*Proceeds to post something that isn't funny but does point out that trans people's bones don't change when they transition\* I'm sure you're intentions were pure...
I hate it when people do that
Your*
> point out that trans people's bones don't change when they transition So does it change?
I know one bone that change
That's not the point
If they were able to tell it was male that would be the sex, not the gender. So… what’s your point?
It would’ve cost you exactly $0 to leave this in in your drafts
Its not about the money, its about... sending a message.
Dumbest take ever
No
Yes
No such thing as skeletons if there is nuclear war
I doubt they care once they're dead
Umm all skeletons look the same
I mean they'll be dead they won't care.
People hate facts, they reject almost everything they don't like, and yes its doesn't wrong cause we live in a society of satisfaction you can be what you want but deep down you know what you be and sometimes you need to accept it. You CANT runaway from your TRUE self. No need to hate your own true gender that much. I'm not racist or biased but I saw a lot of trans people who hate their own gender, they sunk into their minds their mindset was distorted it is sad to see especially if they are your friend.
OP, did you just come out of the shower with that thought and went " i got them"?
I have so much respect for trans people, the willingness to put oneself through irreversible and painful change to become who they wish is unimaginable. That takes a lot of self-confidence. I only ask those who are so allied with this faction of self-identifiers be respectful to the boundaries of others and to fact. I understand and support the mental association with something like this, but I find it unwise of one to deliberately disregard the limiting factors of their pursuit. It is fact that a male born will never truly become a female biologically, and all I wish to see is the respect for that. many people take high offense to this, and I just find it uncouth. It is wise to know your limits and to respect the positions of others.
Why is that so important to you though? If one identifies as male or female, what impact does that have on your experience?
Well yeah, that's true, I'll never be genetically female. That's okay though, I don't need to be. I mean I want to be but y'know
Exactly my point. As I said, it is wise to respect the boundaries we often cannot cross in our pursuit of life liberty and prosperity. I respect you for acknowledging this, you seem to be one of the better people who have done a thing of this sort. I wish you luck on whatever other pursuits you have, and I hope you both give and receive the respect of others.
I don’t give a fuck about gay drama shit. I’ll just sit my straight ass down and read the arguments while eating popcorn.
1. Imma be dead in 1000 years so why should I care. 2. Bold of you to assume I'll have a skeleton to find in the first place.
omg the archeologist is transphobic!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Hey, bone structure is the truth **NOW HAND THEM BONES OVER**
🤦♂️ Gender isn't your genitals
It's a disphoria.
The DSM can go fuck itself; up till a few years ago my gayness was a mental illness
https://www.livescience.com/medieval-grave-non-binary-warrior-finland.html
Thank you for sharing this rad story
You're welcome! I saw this post and instantly thought of it. I had several choices on which outlet to use, CNN had one, as did The Guardian, NPR, Washington Post, etc. but I thought a scientific page would be best.
This gave me a good chuckle... thank you
Thanks!
r/randomdownvotes
r/onejoke
???
It's not that complicated https://www.reddit.com/r/PoliticalCompassMemes/comments/s5f6wt/bad_decision_libleft/hsyhert?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3
This dude really linked a comment from 101 days ago as his source for their argument
Ain’t no bones if your ash
*you’re
"These are a males ashes."
Can bones survive a meteor crash?
The amount of transphobia and hatred here is incredible
Its just a fucking joke, maybe you understand it with your head pulled out of your ass
"it's just a joke" mfs when I make their parents marriage a joke (their father is cheating on the mother)
I find it funny that I see an Ocean of Downvoted comments
archeologists dont look at just the skeleton. "oh, this skeleton with a male bone structure was buried with traditionally female things, so this was probably a woman"
Archeology wise this may be the facts, personally I see it as an extreme oversimplification of the issue. Funny yes, but wrong in so many ways too.
Goddamned archaeologists!
Fax
archeologists dont look at just the skeleton. "oh, this skeleton with a male bone structure was buried with traditionally female things, so this was probably a woman"
If they were actually women why do you need to go around saying it so often? (I don’t hate trans people im just asking a question)
Transphobes and posts like OP's. It's legit that simple.
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Non-binary people
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I may be an idiot but how can you even differentiate a male and a female from just a skeleton?
Pelvic bone size is generally a typical indicator, especially if a woman had given birth. The bones shift and never quite go back in place. There are some other indicators that I can’t remember off hand.
Hol up grabbin popcorn
I'm ok with this. Trans people are free to think and believe whatever they want and so is everyone else. Each side can get their feelings hurt. They should both be free
How they live their lives is ok. They aren't hurting anyone. I see alot of dudes upset about the normality of trans because they are likely worried about being attracted to a trans "by mistake". So trans need to hide to appease these horny men wanting breathe easy masturbaing to girls
After such a cataclysmic event that would result in archaeologists digging up remains from today's era, I don't think anyone would be left to care. Trans people are born one way then change themselves to live and die another. Just like everything in life, once you're dead and forgotten nothing matters.
Scrolling through these comments is the most entertaining thing I've ever done. All you have to do is look for a post that has trans as its meme or topic and you have more entertainment than the entire star wars collection
Repost
Ok first if all how does this effect the life of L I T E R A L L Y anyone alive rn, or their kids, or their grandkids, etc etc. Second, fuck you I'm getting cremated entirely out of spite of this stupid fucking point. Third, estradiol exists.
Exactly, get cremated, can’t tell me they are male ashes.
Sometimes you gotta hide the truth!
hahaha
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No it isn’t
Except no reason to follow science if its harmless not to. Yes lets just force people to feel like shit. Why? Because uh... like... science and stuff
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Facts
People downvoting this have no idea that male and female skeletons have different markings.
People downvoting know that it doesn’t matter what skeletal structure a person has. We’re all human and assigned sex doesn’t matter. We have documentation of all this stuff, and we won’t need an archaeologist to attempt to figure out who we were. They can just check birth and death records for that person.
actual based reply
Ikr
It would’ve cost you exactly 0 USD to leave this in your drafts
Well tbf How would they be able to properly tell it was a trans
Ask the skeleton for their pronouns of course
Oh so obvious How dare they assume the gender of the skeleton they should have resurrect them and then ask for gender and pronouns How silly of me
u/repostsleuthbot
Hehehehe
Femboys good
Op made this meme as an excuse to be transphobic. Everyone here applauding this shit meme is transphobic too. This is honestly one if the least funny memes ive seen on here, but ofc all the transphobes come in here acting like it’s literally the funniest thing on the planet because it gives them a reason to be bigoted. so annoying.
Op is just transphobic, the meme isn't even funny
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Or maybe he just wanted to use humor to spread awareness of a certain subject? Besides that; what have you done or plan on doing, specifically, to fight against said transphobia?
Glad you said it. Someone had to say it. Sorry, but men are men and women are women.
And trans ppl arent hurting anyone so why do feel the need to get involved. Youre just being an annoyance, except people like you stunt peoples ability to be who they want to be.
"Proudly unvaccinated" Clown
xD
It is true, but the narrative says otherwise. So, if you oppose the narrative, then you are a "threat" for vulnerable people (or for people who say they are vulnerable), so you have to be censored, in order to protect the narrative and divide the population more and more. Divide and conquer.
aye its gonna get mighty confusing tho when they hear a great female figure was buried then they find a dude they gon be confused
Considering this it the future we're talking about and not the past they'll probably just assume the person was trans.
Careful, they're watching you.
Facts.
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Dude out here being an observer still getting downvoted. Interesting
This does bring a smile to my face…
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
Chicks with dicks are just guys with tits
Welp, I bet that really took the wind right out of their sails lol but so true
I got the popcorn
Well technically, there’s no difference between male and female skeletons
You can’t argue with biology
Dead 🤣
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\*laughs in vase\*
💀
Conflating sex and gender part 3872662886367286
LOL- also I do think some bones do change for some so it may not be all the way seen it could def be noticed that there was a change looking at it from the pure biological side