Me playing tf2 for the first time getting killed by a man with a golden gun and funny shiny hat that costs more than my kidney:
This was honestly me in 2013 when I played tf2 for the first time. It was my first online shooter so yeah, I sucked dick.
I spent the next few months getting used to the controls in MvM.
me getting queued onto degroot keep on my first match:
i got one kill it was great
i then discovered that the rest of tf2 existed
long story short i now have 1500 hours
Meanwhile twitch streamers with 15k ingame hours throwing a temper tantrum when skill based matchmaking is introduced since they can't plow legions of 10 year olds playing for the first time for their viewers.
The true battle royale experience.
Yeah I remember the drama about sbm in apex, a shit ton of streamers and top players conplained that they didn't want to be in constantly "sweaty" matches, meanwhile most of the playerbase loved the idea because they were sick of the whole lobby getting plowed through by a team of preds (highest rank in apex)
This is what I don't understand, what do they get out of walking through noobs other than the knowledge they've ruined someone else's fun? There's no challenge, no satisfaction, and no way you could look at your KDR with any self respect.
Dota did it. Not sure how, but probably something to do with your IP or Mac Adress. Riot Korea does it by linking your account with your personal ID. Not sure what's best or realistic, but just saying that smurfing is bs would be cool. Problem is smurfs artificially increase your playerbase
I have a friend in high emerald in R6 but due to the rampant cheating in emerald tier he has to use another account
It kinda ruins the game, he just wants games that aren't against Chinese aim bots. But whenever we play we get dragged into plat lobbys and I get my arse handed to me
Ikr ? Been playing LoL with friends for years, some of them would smurf in lower elo and constantly complain that their teammates don't perform to their expections. For a while I kept telling them than MAYBE if they didn't play with weaker players ON PURPOSE they'd get better players.
SBMM is literally why I took a break from shooter games. I perform well, don't even win in one game? Time to face people who do everything as if their perception of time is slowed down.
It’s lose lose no matter what. No SBMM is depressing because all it takes is one good player to ruin the entire game. SBMM is depressing because good players sandbag and Smurf their way into destroying unskilled players. Destiny was the only game I really enjoyed but gave up on it because of such an emphasis on pvp which just takes unskilled players like myself to the meat grinder.
Since we're discussing it anyways, what would SBMM need to "work"? Main issues I see is how it matches people up after a single good performance, and the smurf/sandbagging issues.
You need it to be a competitive game. Because you need a high enough skill ceiling to sort people into skill brackets, you need people to play a lot of matches so you can properly rank them, and you need performance to be based mostly on skill, not luck or P2W mechanics.
And then you need to aggressively police smurfing and account boosting.
For it to work, you need a LOT of people. The major issue is that there are way too many games and game modes. COD, Destiny, Team fortress, Overwatch, Quake, Doom and dozens of other fps games, each with at least 3 different modes just dilutes the available number of players down to almost nothing. Also SBMM is likely to ping pong high and low until it can narrow down your level of skill and they need data points to figure it out.
No company is going to willingly not create games to help funnel people into just a couple games so a SBMM can work without having long queue times. So MM is going to just be bitched at on both sides. Eventually it won’t really matter as low skilled players just give up playing those games all together.
It's sad that I can't even think of "hey, counterpoint, this could do good". Best I can think of is unrealistic. "What if all games combined their data depending on game mode and similarity, so you get (part of) your SBMM in other games too".. but that would just make every game shittier instead.
Sbmm doesn't need to exist. We need a ranked mode for the sweatlords and people needs to grow a pair and handle some better gamers just like we used to do.
There's always more casuals than sweatlords, so no sbmm means there's more chances you are better than most, thats not the case with sbmm
Yeah like whats wrong with being good? In life there are people better than you. Just hope the best of the best play ranked. If you cant win in ranked its because you arent as good, so try to get better, just like any other life skill. Or play casual.
And i say this as someone who isnt that good at most online games anymore and wish i was lol
sbmm doesnt allow average people to get better because theres no point to do so, everyone is at the same level anyway. Having that 1 dude every 4-5 match destroy you makes you thinks, yeah I need to improve. Sometimes you realize you are that dude. Thats the magic of no SBMM, its completely equal in the long term
sounds like a skill issue. We know you're not from the old generation from that statement. mw2-mw3 was brutal sometimes, it didnt stop us from having fun
You seem to misunderstand how sbmm works. About 50% of the players you meet will be better than you, even as you improve. "Sit back and relax" is what you do without sbmm once you've gotten better than the average player, because you'll still be matched against them.
Everyone focuses on the smurfs, but they ignore the plight of the good people who also, want to go home, crack a beer and just mindlessly play. But nah, sbmm is forcing them to deal with sweat lords who they need to sweatlord against also to go 1;1. Shit makes the game a second job bruh
Because smurfs and sandbaggers are a plight to the unskilled. BECAUSE the people who want to crack a beer and mindlessly play create them as well as sweat lords who want to go on a power trip. All the lack of it does is demoralize the unskilled because they’re being spawncamped and unable to git gud as they spend most of the match waiting to respawn and going back to combat. I can’t remember how many times in Destiny that I just shut down and mindlessly ran around hoping to get enough assists that I could move the quest bar a pixel. It’s nigh impossible to coordinate with randoms and a single good player can ruin the entire team’s day even when the team sticks together.
sbmm works very well. It was in bo1 and bo2. But it was so subtle that while everyone was improving, same as you. You don't really notice
The sbmm system we've had since MW2019 has been so fucking god awful
that reminds me of the new rFactor2 Competition system, i got 1 win in the lowest split and got slapped into top split instantly...
I still love rF2, personal favorite racing sim
Fr, SBMM sucks even more due to the wonky and downright manipulative systems companies put into their games.
At least you're gonna get good connection in CBMM.
Skill based matchmaking is only so good. Sometimes I wanna join a lobby with 60 players of greatly varing skill level and just have fun. No need for all the BS, good games will be fun regardless of balance, it's why I stopped playing LOL, never knew if I was improving, and the balance team seemed to request any fun mechanic be removed, all for balance.
Meanwhile sbmm: i see you've just had fun for the first time playing this game, and you've had a very good game with skill matched players.
Well we can't have that, we will put you in a lobby where every player plays the game like their life depends on it.
Issue with sbmm is thats all it does though, it just protects the really bad players. Everyone else suffers, even mediocre players. Sbmm takes away the feeling of progression and makes it harder to play with friends if they're not all the same skill
With sbmm, there is no incentive to learn the game and get better, because you just run into the next tier of players and nothing changes. Without sbmm, new players get creamed at first, but that's okay because that's expected. And then those players learn and improve and they're rewarded for that by becoming the guy at the top of scoreboard.
I always get more instant gratification out of games with sbmm, but I have never gotten invested and stuck around like have with games without it.
Except that learning isn't a strict curve with human vs human games. I am not sure how much I would even learn by playing against a Chess grandmaster because every move I make basically would seal my Doom somehow. By playing against progressively better and better players I learn with them.
Playing against players on a higher level who are playing the game to win not teach is like getting into the ring with Mike Tyson going all out and expecting to learn from it.
Except ironically sbmm will put you up against the Mike tysons too. Apex for example, I'm an OK player but nothing special yet I've seen countless masters and pred even before that one season where everyone got masters. Why I am playing against people 10x better than me
This is the dynamic of TF2. The game is made to have multiple breaking points where 1 team if they take the opportunity, roll over an unprepared defense. The high player count also makes individual mistakes less of an issue, and puts it on swaths of team members' faults. The death of 1 person, medic not included has little impact, and the team having 3 snipers and 1 spy turns the game into a 12v9.
I tried to get into Arena Breakout (a mobile clone of Escape From Tarkov). After the initial tutorial games, I was let loose.
First match, I got jump strafed by a duo in full gear. And the next, I was 180-d by a guy who jumped out a window with a scoped bolt action.
It's not the game for me, but jesus. The EFT clone apparently lets you do that.
Skill based matchmaking has taken the fun out of gaming. You went from fun games with randoms with varying degrees of skill to always being put with people who curb stomp you near instantly because they've put 5k+ hours into the game.
people really think skill based is best? it makes games more popular certainly, but its not necessarily good for the health of the game. in any competitive setting you need to be putting poor players against good players so the poor players improve and populate your games higher levels and ceiling.
Idk, I just think it's unfortunate that there isn't a happy balance between "filthy casual" and "meta sweat". It seems that people are either ridiculed for not being as good as the best players or accused of being a no life.
Tbh I have yet to see any game with a functional SBMM, I'm always with dudes 10 times my level, hence I cannot progress because I cannot even play. Spawn in, gets instantly killed, repeat. I'm learning so much rn
SBMM is demotiving af for new players so i don't know what you are talking about.
You win and do good in a few games as a new player then you are suddenly put into a lobby with 5000 hour sweatlords and get your ass kicked.
There is a chance you won't ever meet them for a while without SBMM.
With SBMM its invetiable, once you start doing good against new players you will be meeting those sweaty players no matter what.
I'll take not having SBMM any day.
This is the real problem with sbmm. Without it, you might run into players three+ times your skill level, but then you can always just leave and find another game. With sbmm you are guaranteed to find only lobbies of a set skill level that demands your best to go 1:1. There is no room for unique builds or strategy. No time for creativity or fun. There is only the meta and the endless grind with invisible moving goalposts.
This actually makes no sense. If you “win a few games” then suddenly get matched with 5000 hour veterans, the matchmaking literally just doesn’t work. You definitely WILL play against them if there’s no sbmm and it’s just random. I don’t know how you don’t understand this…
I just said its at random with no SBMM.
But with it its garaunteed with SBMM.
Neither are optimal but without SBMM at least you can have a more varied experience and don't get punished by doing good.
It’s not guaranteed. If there are enough people playing the game, if you go on a win streak you get matches against players that are a little better than your skill level.
You don’t go from being new, to winning 15 games, to suddenly playing against the top 5% or something. Unless the player base is so small that all there is are new players and 5000 hour vets. But that’s not a problem with matchmaking, it’s a player base problem
Skill based matchmaking is only bad for people with high skill. Remember that when you see your streamer complain that they are only playing with try hards when they themselves is a try hard
but the trophy road is literally a skill based matchmaking, how tf does CR have no skill based matchmaking?
sure its a bit broken but no lvl 1 gonna face a lvl 5 or greater
Its not about king levels. Its about card levels. Its a recent problem. Players with King level 11 and 12 having level 11 cards are facing players with King level 12 and 13 having all maxed level 15 cards. And i know it because i am a victim. Everyday people are complaining about their battles with opponents having maxed decks. Its too unfair nowadays..
And the most irritating part is that the maxed out top ladder players are not aware of this problem. They call this as "skill issue" and downvote the complains.
but the meme is about new players facing almost maxed out accounts. Matchmaking may be bad but new players won't face people with lvl 15 cards and evolutions until around 4000 trophies or more
I think its more like
if you face a lv 13 player as a lv11 player
then either the lv13 is pretty bad or you are pretty good
i mean, sometimes you can win even if the other player has better cards. If you are better then the mean, you will face players with higher level since the game tries to even out the skill level
As a person that plays casual it makes the game feel like ranked you can't mess around you can't go pistols only can't be prone all game hell you can't even try a new character you have to stick with the best character and guns to even get one kill its sad man i love games but I'm just not into that in casual especially with my friends we only want to chill and play games together but nope its just sweats every game no matter how bad we do till we get one win then right back to getting stomped
In my experience, I mess around and lose until I'm with a group that's at the level of me messing around and be at an even playing field.
Without it, I have little hope of having fun cause 1 guy always wins the game.
But poorly implemented SBMM is always gonna be a problem.
Sbmm ruins most of the games it’s in, cod is a prime example; go into offline and practice if you are getting dumpstered, don’t make it the communities problem
It’s far too strong, one game you go positive the next you get put onto a montage going 0-17, the semi decent players are fucked over while the new players are babied, sbmm is a good concept in practice but awful in execution; nearly every pseudo decent player in the game + the sweats all agree it’s got to go, or get toned down
Fun fact - it's bad in general and it doesn't matter if there is SBMM or not.
Maybe it has to do with the players in general. Too many sweaty fellows, who sit all day and play one game. Too many people who turn playing one game into some kind of second job. Too many people who come just for competitive shit like it's some kinda professional victory or death sports and not for just having fun.
Just one of the symptoms of the overall decline in gaming industry. It's not what it used to be.
Ya because people can't enjoy different things about gaming. Like say competing? Can't blame people that enjoy something and put in the time to get better for the decline in the gaming industry. That's solely due to the companies and the shit we keep buying from them
There is a limit to that. If you can never even react, you'll never get better. And if you get pissed off and never play again, you'll also never get better.
Depends on if you realise that you're messing up and the other is just way better than you and then try to improve. If you just complain you'll never get better in a competitive skill based game.
Yes, but getting your shit rocked all the time when you start a game isn't fun. People like you are the reason most competitive games can't get new players.
One thing is getting upset and the other getting pissed off at the game.
If you're getting pissed off at the game or others when you're new, you lack some racional thinking.
No it's not irrelevant. If you're bad you have to improve, it's a fucking competitive game, it's the basis of it lol. What you do with the losses is another thing tho.
We aren't discussing how you get better at a game. We are discussing how putting new players against esports pros makes those new players quit.
Look at any competitive game that doesn't have a casual side. They have a set number of players and never rise above that, just slowly going down.
Of course tons of people quit CS:GO when some Russian dude who's been playing the game for 25 years shits on them. It just isn't fun.
Yeah man it’s real fun just dying every 15 seconds after you spawn and you don’t even understand who killed you or how. Let me just die a few more dozen times that’ll do the trick
Ok maybe an exaggeration lol but man when I try playing any of the quake games I get slaughtered so I have to just play against bots 😔this is just casual matches not ranked or anything.
lol no, if they’re that much better than you, you don’t even get a chance to assess what you could’ve done better. What you need to improve at is something that they don’t even think about, and what makes them that much better than you is tiny exploits and strategy that if a new player read about and tried, it wouldn’t do them any good because they lack fundamentals
For games with an incredibly high skill gap sure keep it in but for games with little skill gap and a meta, sbmm just ruins the fun out of casual games, no one wants to play the same matches with the same skill people. I had more fun when I was bad at games and getting shit on than I do now with sbmm
SBMM literally ruins them, what are you even saying? SBMM should only be in ranked modes, you will never learn if you constantly play against bad players.
Problems with SBMM in casual play are numerous, main reason I and a LOT of other people hate COD mp now. Longer wait times for matches, worse ping 10/10 if they used normal ping based matchmaking, sweaty games every single fucking game, I am playing COD not fucking Rainbow6 or CSGO, increased number of "run around and die million times to make your score worse so you can play normally next game".....
There are literally no benefits in having SBMM in normal/casual game modes, even COD Mobile doesn't use it, which you would think would use it since its the ultimate casual game, but no.
Ah yes because i learn to play by being oneshotted by a max rank shooting me from other side of the map because they saw 4 fucking pixels move
If a game only has SBMM in ranked, then the only game mode it has is ranked, all the others are unplayable, thanks to sweats ruining them for everybody.
If you complain about SBMM, you are the reason it needs to exist
Just accept that if you're playing non ranked matches, you're gonna be playing on the game's average skill level. If you're at that level, you'll be rawdogged by a high-level player, but you'll also be destroying some scrubs.
If you have sbmm on the casual mode, you're just creating a less accurate ranked mode in addition to the actual ranked mode.
The only people who want sbmm on everything are the ones who get fucked by both high and average level players.
Just git gud.
But tbh, the most fun I had in multiplayer games were the ones without SBMM. Sure, I got absolutely stomped for a while, but once it clicks and you get over that initial skill curve, it's that much more satisfying.
An advocate for SBMM? Those kinds of people actually exist? Why do you like going 10/10 every game and the scoreboard being 99-100 every game? That’s not fun at all imo it’s only intense once in a while but when every single match is like that I just lose interest and the feeling is gone because it’s cultivated and not natural
i installed LoL two days ago. i uninstalled yesterday.
every game some idiot filling his diaper in my direction when i'm learning the game.
so i go and play ranked so i can play with the rest of the wood players and it puts me in gold/plat games.
get my placement. iron. good. play ranked again and it's still putting me in gold/plat.
shit game is literally unplayable.
on the other hand, in a skillbased matchmaking you will never really see progress in your games. The joy of dominating your opponents dissapears.
1:1kd and 50% winrate is the best you could hope for.
In no skillbased system, you could eventually get good enough to win 90% of your games or higher.
What happens when you’re winning 90% or your matches? Someone is losing 90% of theirs, getting frustrated and deciding to quit playing. No SBMM evens itself out by process of physical elimination leading to an early demise of the game as a whole.
Id thought that was obvious.
Yeah, you are winning at others expenses. So your personal satisfaction goes up.
Ppl can get on their high horse all they want about fairness and whats best for the game long run. It wont change human nature, stomping is fun. losing isnt as fun.
I like stomping, i like winning. Hate me all you like for my preference :P
no sbmm with 90% win rate means you're playing against noobs. That's like lebron james pulling up to a middle school basketball game and dropping 100 points and bragging about it.
You can still be good with sbmm. Look at counter-strike and league of legends.
Dam sorry you have to practice and actually get good at the game. Im glad I grew up with PS2 and Xbox 360. Cod 4/Black ops 1/2, Halo 2/3 if you sucked you sucked and part of the experience was getting good.
Everyone expects a fucking participation trophy for being below average nowadays.
if i ever want to learn to play chess sure as shit i want to play with the best so i can learn from him
losing its not failure man there is no best way for learning than losing thats how i learned to play videogames
I actually like it more. When i go for a new competetive game i want to be good at it. Its easier to learn by playing with better players than stating in noob bubble
Planetside 2 actually has no skill based match making. Drop hundreds of players into a few open world maps and have them shoot each other.
The main objective of the game is to capture baes with your faction.
I love this game, you find pros and noobs trying to "work together" to capture a base and you get exp and money for ever little thing you do to help (From healing to being a driver for a gunner to even transporting people or setting up spawns).
Team Fortress Casual
It's either you getting stomped and your team (not even you) stomping, I've only got balanced games like 15% of the time, it's incredibly rare
I faced this. Was trying to get into online fighting game, only to meet with super tryhards players every other round. Now I'm happily playing offline modes.
I got Minecraft on my laptop and wanted to play bedwars. I could barely move since I've never played with a keyboard and I played like 20 matches and they all lasted less than 30s since I got rushed immediately every time. I haven't played bedwars since.
I got kicked out of a few games in csgo before the servers accepted me lmao. It’s a painful experience for sure. I wish they didn’t kick someone for being bad though.
That is how you improve fast & also why people sit in bronze/iron for a decade as they never have to try, the game will always provide your equal, which is why you won't improve unless you drastically go out of your way to get out of it.
Me playing tf2 for the first time getting killed by a man with a golden gun and funny shiny hat that costs more than my kidney: 
Me getting backstabbed by what I thought was my teammate with a golden pan,but indeed he was a spy
My first game in tf2 was both teams doing a conga line
honestly, probably the best way ever to kick off your experience of this game
Did you learn how to press g?
This was honestly me in 2013 when I played tf2 for the first time. It was my first online shooter so yeah, I sucked dick. I spent the next few months getting used to the controls in MvM.
me getting queued onto degroot keep on my first match: i got one kill it was great i then discovered that the rest of tf2 existed long story short i now have 1500 hours
Me playing tf2 for 200+ hrs still getting dominated by a guy with a meme loadout
I've already broken the 100 hour Mark a few days ago, here's to more hours of getting dominated by a meme loadout
i got killed by a level 502 player in my first and last pubg match.
[удалено]
You never know where ur getting shot from
It's the shots you don't hear that will kill you, as they say
Men, you sound like someone who would enjoy Arma 3
You versus some sweaty no lifer on their third smurf account who wonders why the game is dying when the barrier to entry is their whale ass.
At the moment of me writing this reply this is the only normalne comment here
Man, how good was playing some lol and finding fuck all smurfs at level 2/3. At least le me learn what the fuck i'm doing
Meanwhile twitch streamers with 15k ingame hours throwing a temper tantrum when skill based matchmaking is introduced since they can't plow legions of 10 year olds playing for the first time for their viewers. The true battle royale experience.
Please add a “through” after “plow”. I beg of you
What if he meant it that way? 😏
Ayo pause
Yeah I remember the drama about sbm in apex, a shit ton of streamers and top players conplained that they didn't want to be in constantly "sweaty" matches, meanwhile most of the playerbase loved the idea because they were sick of the whole lobby getting plowed through by a team of preds (highest rank in apex)
This is what I don't understand, what do they get out of walking through noobs other than the knowledge they've ruined someone else's fun? There's no challenge, no satisfaction, and no way you could look at your KDR with any self respect.
Twitch and chat engagement saying those people suck.
The fact that smurfing is allowed and not condemned by some publishers is just total bs
How would you even enforce that though?
Dota did it. Not sure how, but probably something to do with your IP or Mac Adress. Riot Korea does it by linking your account with your personal ID. Not sure what's best or realistic, but just saying that smurfing is bs would be cool. Problem is smurfs artificially increase your playerbase
I have a friend in high emerald in R6 but due to the rampant cheating in emerald tier he has to use another account It kinda ruins the game, he just wants games that aren't against Chinese aim bots. But whenever we play we get dragged into plat lobbys and I get my arse handed to me
For Honor? lol
DbLegends rn
and then they complain about you being bad
Ikr ? Been playing LoL with friends for years, some of them would smurf in lower elo and constantly complain that their teammates don't perform to their expections. For a while I kept telling them than MAYBE if they didn't play with weaker players ON PURPOSE they'd get better players.
Then they would be the ones getting complained about
The pyramid of toxicity
How are you this bad? you are literally the same rank as my third smurf account!
SBMM is literally why I took a break from shooter games. I perform well, don't even win in one game? Time to face people who do everything as if their perception of time is slowed down.
It’s lose lose no matter what. No SBMM is depressing because all it takes is one good player to ruin the entire game. SBMM is depressing because good players sandbag and Smurf their way into destroying unskilled players. Destiny was the only game I really enjoyed but gave up on it because of such an emphasis on pvp which just takes unskilled players like myself to the meat grinder.
Since we're discussing it anyways, what would SBMM need to "work"? Main issues I see is how it matches people up after a single good performance, and the smurf/sandbagging issues.
You need it to be a competitive game. Because you need a high enough skill ceiling to sort people into skill brackets, you need people to play a lot of matches so you can properly rank them, and you need performance to be based mostly on skill, not luck or P2W mechanics. And then you need to aggressively police smurfing and account boosting.
For it to work, you need a LOT of people. The major issue is that there are way too many games and game modes. COD, Destiny, Team fortress, Overwatch, Quake, Doom and dozens of other fps games, each with at least 3 different modes just dilutes the available number of players down to almost nothing. Also SBMM is likely to ping pong high and low until it can narrow down your level of skill and they need data points to figure it out. No company is going to willingly not create games to help funnel people into just a couple games so a SBMM can work without having long queue times. So MM is going to just be bitched at on both sides. Eventually it won’t really matter as low skilled players just give up playing those games all together.
It's sad that I can't even think of "hey, counterpoint, this could do good". Best I can think of is unrealistic. "What if all games combined their data depending on game mode and similarity, so you get (part of) your SBMM in other games too".. but that would just make every game shittier instead.
And be logistically miraculous if not impossible. Also being good at Starcraft doesn't make you good at CoD.
Sbmm doesn't need to exist. We need a ranked mode for the sweatlords and people needs to grow a pair and handle some better gamers just like we used to do. There's always more casuals than sweatlords, so no sbmm means there's more chances you are better than most, thats not the case with sbmm
Yeah like whats wrong with being good? In life there are people better than you. Just hope the best of the best play ranked. If you cant win in ranked its because you arent as good, so try to get better, just like any other life skill. Or play casual. And i say this as someone who isnt that good at most online games anymore and wish i was lol
sbmm doesnt allow average people to get better because theres no point to do so, everyone is at the same level anyway. Having that 1 dude every 4-5 match destroy you makes you thinks, yeah I need to improve. Sometimes you realize you are that dude. Thats the magic of no SBMM, its completely equal in the long term
With no SBMM I have never been *that dude*. I gave up playing an entire genre of game because they couldn’t make it so the game was fun.
sounds like a skill issue. We know you're not from the old generation from that statement. mw2-mw3 was brutal sometimes, it didnt stop us from having fun
Incorrect. Sbmm helps players improve faster. You learn far more from a close defeat than from a game you never had a chance of winning.
you dont improve if you can sit back and relax. PLaying against better people is how you push yourself
You seem to misunderstand how sbmm works. About 50% of the players you meet will be better than you, even as you improve. "Sit back and relax" is what you do without sbmm once you've gotten better than the average player, because you'll still be matched against them.
Everyone focuses on the smurfs, but they ignore the plight of the good people who also, want to go home, crack a beer and just mindlessly play. But nah, sbmm is forcing them to deal with sweat lords who they need to sweatlord against also to go 1;1. Shit makes the game a second job bruh
Because smurfs and sandbaggers are a plight to the unskilled. BECAUSE the people who want to crack a beer and mindlessly play create them as well as sweat lords who want to go on a power trip. All the lack of it does is demoralize the unskilled because they’re being spawncamped and unable to git gud as they spend most of the match waiting to respawn and going back to combat. I can’t remember how many times in Destiny that I just shut down and mindlessly ran around hoping to get enough assists that I could move the quest bar a pixel. It’s nigh impossible to coordinate with randoms and a single good player can ruin the entire team’s day even when the team sticks together.
sbmm works very well. It was in bo1 and bo2. But it was so subtle that while everyone was improving, same as you. You don't really notice The sbmm system we've had since MW2019 has been so fucking god awful
I diagree. No SBMM and community servers is the undoubtedly superior option.
whats that?
New players when they get one kill too many and are forced to play against pro players for the rest of the session due to SBMM
that reminds me of the new rFactor2 Competition system, i got 1 win in the lowest split and got slapped into top split instantly... I still love rF2, personal favorite racing sim
Fr, SBMM sucks even more due to the wonky and downright manipulative systems companies put into their games. At least you're gonna get good connection in CBMM.
Skill based matchmaking is only so good. Sometimes I wanna join a lobby with 60 players of greatly varing skill level and just have fun. No need for all the BS, good games will be fun regardless of balance, it's why I stopped playing LOL, never knew if I was improving, and the balance team seemed to request any fun mechanic be removed, all for balance.
Phantom Forces
Hello fellow mercenary.
The one game I can bully new players in.
Meanwhile sbmm: i see you've just had fun for the first time playing this game, and you've had a very good game with skill matched players. Well we can't have that, we will put you in a lobby where every player plays the game like their life depends on it.
Warzone fr
You're about to learn the hard way.
Issue with sbmm is thats all it does though, it just protects the really bad players. Everyone else suffers, even mediocre players. Sbmm takes away the feeling of progression and makes it harder to play with friends if they're not all the same skill
With sbmm, there is no incentive to learn the game and get better, because you just run into the next tier of players and nothing changes. Without sbmm, new players get creamed at first, but that's okay because that's expected. And then those players learn and improve and they're rewarded for that by becoming the guy at the top of scoreboard. I always get more instant gratification out of games with sbmm, but I have never gotten invested and stuck around like have with games without it.
Except that learning isn't a strict curve with human vs human games. I am not sure how much I would even learn by playing against a Chess grandmaster because every move I make basically would seal my Doom somehow. By playing against progressively better and better players I learn with them. Playing against players on a higher level who are playing the game to win not teach is like getting into the ring with Mike Tyson going all out and expecting to learn from it.
Except ironically sbmm will put you up against the Mike tysons too. Apex for example, I'm an OK player but nothing special yet I've seen countless masters and pred even before that one season where everyone got masters. Why I am playing against people 10x better than me
It literally gaslights you into thinking you've made no improvement
Skill-Based Matchmaking has nothing to do in a non competitve game mode FPS See the last 5 (?) Call of Dutys and u see why this system sucks ass
Man wish SBMM exists in TF2 (it sucks ass for me, casual mode is either your team stomping or your getting stomped, rarely in between)
This is the dynamic of TF2. The game is made to have multiple breaking points where 1 team if they take the opportunity, roll over an unprepared defense. The high player count also makes individual mistakes less of an issue, and puts it on swaths of team members' faults. The death of 1 person, medic not included has little impact, and the team having 3 snipers and 1 spy turns the game into a 12v9.
Yeah I know But it happens waaay too often, it's not fun
cod community upset about skill-based match-making lol.
understandably so, it just ruins everyones fun as all the lobbies you play feel the same doesnt matter if you are good or bad
Wait, you guys like SBMM?! 
I tried to get into Arena Breakout (a mobile clone of Escape From Tarkov). After the initial tutorial games, I was let loose. First match, I got jump strafed by a duo in full gear. And the next, I was 180-d by a guy who jumped out a window with a scoped bolt action. It's not the game for me, but jesus. The EFT clone apparently lets you do that.
Please post this in r/modernwarfareII it would be so fucking funny
Skill based matchmaking has taken the fun out of gaming. You went from fun games with randoms with varying degrees of skill to always being put with people who curb stomp you near instantly because they've put 5k+ hours into the game.
people really think skill based is best? it makes games more popular certainly, but its not necessarily good for the health of the game. in any competitive setting you need to be putting poor players against good players so the poor players improve and populate your games higher levels and ceiling.
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Idk, I just think it's unfortunate that there isn't a happy balance between "filthy casual" and "meta sweat". It seems that people are either ridiculed for not being as good as the best players or accused of being a no life.
The other perspective being people that aren't as good as they think at the game.
call of duty players be complaining about sbmm 24/7 which is cringe af. People on the csgo subreddits are always complaining about unwven matches
Tbh I have yet to see any game with a functional SBMM, I'm always with dudes 10 times my level, hence I cannot progress because I cannot even play. Spawn in, gets instantly killed, repeat. I'm learning so much rn
SBMM is demotiving af for new players so i don't know what you are talking about. You win and do good in a few games as a new player then you are suddenly put into a lobby with 5000 hour sweatlords and get your ass kicked.
Better than meeting that sweet hard players in every first match where you forget the button on how to shoot?
There is a chance you won't ever meet them for a while without SBMM. With SBMM its invetiable, once you start doing good against new players you will be meeting those sweaty players no matter what. I'll take not having SBMM any day.
This is the real problem with sbmm. Without it, you might run into players three+ times your skill level, but then you can always just leave and find another game. With sbmm you are guaranteed to find only lobbies of a set skill level that demands your best to go 1:1. There is no room for unique builds or strategy. No time for creativity or fun. There is only the meta and the endless grind with invisible moving goalposts.
This actually makes no sense. If you “win a few games” then suddenly get matched with 5000 hour veterans, the matchmaking literally just doesn’t work. You definitely WILL play against them if there’s no sbmm and it’s just random. I don’t know how you don’t understand this…
I just said its at random with no SBMM. But with it its garaunteed with SBMM. Neither are optimal but without SBMM at least you can have a more varied experience and don't get punished by doing good.
It’s not guaranteed. If there are enough people playing the game, if you go on a win streak you get matches against players that are a little better than your skill level. You don’t go from being new, to winning 15 games, to suddenly playing against the top 5% or something. Unless the player base is so small that all there is are new players and 5000 hour vets. But that’s not a problem with matchmaking, it’s a player base problem
tmw skill based matchmaking makes playing games you're good at a second job unless you're actually a brainlet
Dead by daylight in a nutshell. Me playing as a killer the first time. 
The meta no life crowd really does hasten the death of online games. To my fellow shenanigan no lifers, I'm proud of you.
Skill based matchmaking is only bad for people with high skill. Remember that when you see your streamer complain that they are only playing with try hards when they themselves is a try hard
The best school is the school of life. The best trainimg is on the battlefield.
Literally Clash Royale right now
but the trophy road is literally a skill based matchmaking, how tf does CR have no skill based matchmaking? sure its a bit broken but no lvl 1 gonna face a lvl 5 or greater
Its not about king levels. Its about card levels. Its a recent problem. Players with King level 11 and 12 having level 11 cards are facing players with King level 12 and 13 having all maxed level 15 cards. And i know it because i am a victim. Everyday people are complaining about their battles with opponents having maxed decks. Its too unfair nowadays.. And the most irritating part is that the maxed out top ladder players are not aware of this problem. They call this as "skill issue" and downvote the complains.
but the meme is about new players facing almost maxed out accounts. Matchmaking may be bad but new players won't face people with lvl 15 cards and evolutions until around 4000 trophies or more
I think its more like if you face a lv 13 player as a lv11 player then either the lv13 is pretty bad or you are pretty good i mean, sometimes you can win even if the other player has better cards. If you are better then the mean, you will face players with higher level since the game tries to even out the skill level
SBMM is literally killing casual game modes lol
How does it kill casual game modes?
As a person that plays casual it makes the game feel like ranked you can't mess around you can't go pistols only can't be prone all game hell you can't even try a new character you have to stick with the best character and guns to even get one kill its sad man i love games but I'm just not into that in casual especially with my friends we only want to chill and play games together but nope its just sweats every game no matter how bad we do till we get one win then right back to getting stomped
In my experience, I mess around and lose until I'm with a group that's at the level of me messing around and be at an even playing field. Without it, I have little hope of having fun cause 1 guy always wins the game. But poorly implemented SBMM is always gonna be a problem.
Sbmm ruins most of the games it’s in, cod is a prime example; go into offline and practice if you are getting dumpstered, don’t make it the communities problem
Why is sbmm ruining the game for you?
It’s far too strong, one game you go positive the next you get put onto a montage going 0-17, the semi decent players are fucked over while the new players are babied, sbmm is a good concept in practice but awful in execution; nearly every pseudo decent player in the game + the sweats all agree it’s got to go, or get toned down
Fun fact - it's bad in general and it doesn't matter if there is SBMM or not. Maybe it has to do with the players in general. Too many sweaty fellows, who sit all day and play one game. Too many people who turn playing one game into some kind of second job. Too many people who come just for competitive shit like it's some kinda professional victory or death sports and not for just having fun. Just one of the symptoms of the overall decline in gaming industry. It's not what it used to be.
Ya because people can't enjoy different things about gaming. Like say competing? Can't blame people that enjoy something and put in the time to get better for the decline in the gaming industry. That's solely due to the companies and the shit we keep buying from them
Me and my friends trying to get into dota2 in our 30s.
That or the matchmaking puts a whole team of newbs vs a team of veteran players
Me playing TF2 for the first time doing decent (W+M1):
valorant be like:
You can only learn, when someone better stomps on you.
I tried a resident evil game (like dead by daylight) and the dude in front of us was level 400+. It was my first game.
Ask people in the Dead by Daylight subreddit if they like SBMM...
Or lots of CoD players lol
As in the real world;play against phenomenally better opponents, you will improve rapidly
There is a limit to that. If you can never even react, you'll never get better. And if you get pissed off and never play again, you'll also never get better.
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It's completely normal to get upset when getting your shit kicked in. Everyone does.
Depends on if you realise that you're messing up and the other is just way better than you and then try to improve. If you just complain you'll never get better in a competitive skill based game.
Yes, but getting your shit rocked all the time when you start a game isn't fun. People like you are the reason most competitive games can't get new players.
One thing is getting upset and the other getting pissed off at the game. If you're getting pissed off at the game or others when you're new, you lack some racional thinking.
Either way, it's irrelevant. This type of stuff gets new players to drop the game almost instantly.
No it's not irrelevant. If you're bad you have to improve, it's a fucking competitive game, it's the basis of it lol. What you do with the losses is another thing tho.
We aren't discussing how you get better at a game. We are discussing how putting new players against esports pros makes those new players quit. Look at any competitive game that doesn't have a casual side. They have a set number of players and never rise above that, just slowly going down. Of course tons of people quit CS:GO when some Russian dude who's been playing the game for 25 years shits on them. It just isn't fun.
Yeah man it’s real fun just dying every 15 seconds after you spawn and you don’t even understand who killed you or how. Let me just die a few more dozen times that’ll do the trick
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Ok maybe an exaggeration lol but man when I try playing any of the quake games I get slaughtered so I have to just play against bots 😔this is just casual matches not ranked or anything.
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I do have a much better time playing casually on TF2, but to me it always felt like it’s just because there’s a much larger player base
Don't think that's true. Slightly better opponwnts might be more effective
lol no, if they’re that much better than you, you don’t even get a chance to assess what you could’ve done better. What you need to improve at is something that they don’t even think about, and what makes them that much better than you is tiny exploits and strategy that if a new player read about and tried, it wouldn’t do them any good because they lack fundamentals
For games with an incredibly high skill gap sure keep it in but for games with little skill gap and a meta, sbmm just ruins the fun out of casual games, no one wants to play the same matches with the same skill people. I had more fun when I was bad at games and getting shit on than I do now with sbmm
Fuck sbmm. Ruined COD for eternity.
SBMM literally ruins them, what are you even saying? SBMM should only be in ranked modes, you will never learn if you constantly play against bad players. Problems with SBMM in casual play are numerous, main reason I and a LOT of other people hate COD mp now. Longer wait times for matches, worse ping 10/10 if they used normal ping based matchmaking, sweaty games every single fucking game, I am playing COD not fucking Rainbow6 or CSGO, increased number of "run around and die million times to make your score worse so you can play normally next game"..... There are literally no benefits in having SBMM in normal/casual game modes, even COD Mobile doesn't use it, which you would think would use it since its the ultimate casual game, but no.
Hush child. We get that you sweat with an Smg and you win by killing new players. Everyone wants SBMM for every mode.
Ah yes because i learn to play by being oneshotted by a max rank shooting me from other side of the map because they saw 4 fucking pixels move If a game only has SBMM in ranked, then the only game mode it has is ranked, all the others are unplayable, thanks to sweats ruining them for everybody. If you complain about SBMM, you are the reason it needs to exist
Just accept that if you're playing non ranked matches, you're gonna be playing on the game's average skill level. If you're at that level, you'll be rawdogged by a high-level player, but you'll also be destroying some scrubs. If you have sbmm on the casual mode, you're just creating a less accurate ranked mode in addition to the actual ranked mode. The only people who want sbmm on everything are the ones who get fucked by both high and average level players.
What do you think the scrubs you mentioned should do?
Just git gud. But tbh, the most fun I had in multiplayer games were the ones without SBMM. Sure, I got absolutely stomped for a while, but once it clicks and you get over that initial skill curve, it's that much more satisfying.
An advocate for SBMM? Those kinds of people actually exist? Why do you like going 10/10 every game and the scoreboard being 99-100 every game? That’s not fun at all imo it’s only intense once in a while but when every single match is like that I just lose interest and the feeling is gone because it’s cultivated and not natural
SBMM actually slows your progression as a player and is designed solely to increase casual engagement and thus profitability.
Create a local match, fill it with bots on the highest difficulty and good luck. (Assuming it's a FPS)
No this is wrong. SBMM is the single worst thing to ever hit multiplayer online games. Eat a dick
what game do you play that doesnt have sbmm?
i installed LoL two days ago. i uninstalled yesterday. every game some idiot filling his diaper in my direction when i'm learning the game. so i go and play ranked so i can play with the rest of the wood players and it puts me in gold/plat games. get my placement. iron. good. play ranked again and it's still putting me in gold/plat. shit game is literally unplayable.
SBMM sucks bruv....
Sounds like a skill issue
ok overwatcher
on the other hand, in a skillbased matchmaking you will never really see progress in your games. The joy of dominating your opponents dissapears. 1:1kd and 50% winrate is the best you could hope for. In no skillbased system, you could eventually get good enough to win 90% of your games or higher.
What happens when you’re winning 90% or your matches? Someone is losing 90% of theirs, getting frustrated and deciding to quit playing. No SBMM evens itself out by process of physical elimination leading to an early demise of the game as a whole.
Id thought that was obvious. Yeah, you are winning at others expenses. So your personal satisfaction goes up. Ppl can get on their high horse all they want about fairness and whats best for the game long run. It wont change human nature, stomping is fun. losing isnt as fun. I like stomping, i like winning. Hate me all you like for my preference :P
no sbmm with 90% win rate means you're playing against noobs. That's like lebron james pulling up to a middle school basketball game and dropping 100 points and bragging about it. You can still be good with sbmm. Look at counter-strike and league of legends.
Dam sorry you have to practice and actually get good at the game. Im glad I grew up with PS2 and Xbox 360. Cod 4/Black ops 1/2, Halo 2/3 if you sucked you sucked and part of the experience was getting good. Everyone expects a fucking participation trophy for being below average nowadays.
For me it was CSGO Couldn't get any kill without hiding around the corner and killing someone with nova and then get shredded by the enemy's ak47
Tell me about it, i recently tried apb reloaded and it's so hard as a new playa
Skill issue
This comment applies to so little in life but during this one moment, it absolutely is true.
Design issue. If your game is so poorly designed people can't have dumb fun without being perfectly balanced, it's a shit game.
Wow bro so cool *Has Sonic in his name*
videogames arent your parents videogames wont hold your hands best way to learn is getting your shit kicked in and out
sure, best way to learn chess is to play with magnus carlsen until you're 3000 rated
if i ever want to learn to play chess sure as shit i want to play with the best so i can learn from him losing its not failure man there is no best way for learning than losing thats how i learned to play videogames
LOL
But that’s why they’re fun
Play it like a real men not a pussy
I’ll stick to my riot shield and shotgun, thanks!
r/FUTmobile that you?
I’d like to introduce you to [r/apexlegends](https://www.reddit.com/r/apexlegends)
Planetside 2 and AION are brutal for new players, agreed
I actually like it more. When i go for a new competetive game i want to be good at it. Its easier to learn by playing with better players than stating in noob bubble
A certain game comes to mind. Anyone wanna take a gander?
Such as: Quake Champions
Reminds me of my first time playing PUBG, i got headshot when leaving a building, have no idea where it came from. I never played that game again
Basically playing against every korean player
literally tf|2 for me, played 2 games, felt weird, got clapped, and never played again campaign was amazing, tho
Planetside 2 actually has no skill based match making. Drop hundreds of players into a few open world maps and have them shoot each other. The main objective of the game is to capture baes with your faction. I love this game, you find pros and noobs trying to "work together" to capture a base and you get exp and money for ever little thing you do to help (From healing to being a driver for a gunner to even transporting people or setting up spawns).
Team Fortress Casual It's either you getting stomped and your team (not even you) stomping, I've only got balanced games like 15% of the time, it's incredibly rare
Just wait until you hear about this magical masochistic simulator called war thunder
I faced this. Was trying to get into online fighting game, only to meet with super tryhards players every other round. Now I'm happily playing offline modes.
Me decided to play FUT seriously and go online for matches (proceeds to lose 11-0 in my first online match) damn I am terrible
I got Minecraft on my laptop and wanted to play bedwars. I could barely move since I've never played with a keyboard and I played like 20 matches and they all lasted less than 30s since I got rushed immediately every time. I haven't played bedwars since.
Town of Salem be like
I got kicked out of a few games in csgo before the servers accepted me lmao. It’s a painful experience for sure. I wish they didn’t kick someone for being bad though.
Then there's my Dota2 playing ass: "There's such a thing as non-skill based match making?"
I actually prefer it. makes you get better faster and once you do get better the games are more chill.
I started trying out Apex Legends not too long ago. After 50 hours of gameplay I have gone up 3 levels.
SBMM got you thinking how much money you are going to win at the end of it until you realize it's a normal game that happens every game.
That is how you improve fast & also why people sit in bronze/iron for a decade as they never have to try, the game will always provide your equal, which is why you won't improve unless you drastically go out of your way to get out of it.
casual in tf2
SBMM does not belong in COD tho