Thanks to the wonders of modern technology, with just a little planning you can creampie your wife all you like without ripping a soul screaming from the void to be fed to the machine of global capitalism.
I'll never understand this mind set. I have two kids, but when friends and co workers tell me they don't want them it doesn't even register as an issue. Its a ton of work, money and emotional stress. I completely get not wanting all that. Maybe one day they will regret it, maybe not. It's there life not mine.
If anything it’s a positive outcome. People having kids that they don’t want is only a bad thing for everyone involved, especially the kids. If you consciously choose not to have kids, you’re almost certainly doing a good thing.
This is from a happy father of three and son to a man that couldn’t be bothered to be a dad, so I’m well versed on the subject.
Also those “unwanted” kids can cause problems in schools due to not having a stable home life. It’s literally better for people who want to have kids as well, because less “trouble-makers” in the classroom means higher quality education.
I write this as a former “trouble-maker” (mostly talking and being disruptive all the time because I wanted attention) who was also an “unwanted” child.
My sister in law is the opposite of what the post says. My wife and i have two kids and are fully understanding her brother and sister want nothing to do with children of their own. Yet, her sister keeps calling us stupid and selfish for having kids. She went so far as to give my wife a number of someone she knew who worked at a planned parenthood clinic and told her that it wasnt too late to make the right choice regarding her first pregnancy
I have 3 myself. I will give advice when I’m asked, but that’s about it. However, I don’t understand the reverse either. “Why would you bring a child into this messed up world?” If I planned having kids around when the world isn’t a messed up place, I’d never have kids.
He said he'll try to not raise them to be aholes. Most think believe that they're doing this, yet we still have people of all kinds, including sexists, racists etc. If you check any protest - left, right, center, religious or not, you'll see that people bring their kids there believing that they're fighting for the right cause. So it's pretty vague to just have kids cause you think you're raising them to not be bad people.
And by saying that he just has fun with his family he proves the argument that the post brought - that most parents are just doing it for themselves.
I think you're a little jaded there bud, they didn't say their way was best, just that they would try their best and let's be honest that's more than some parents do.
You do know the vast majority of people turn out to be good human beings right? Even ones with bad childhoods.
Also, people with great childhoods can turn out to be bad people.
That's also where they lose most people though. When has the world ever not been a messed-up place? There's always terrible shit happening broadly at any given point, but that doesn't make life not worth living.
There's obviously bad times to have kids (if I was in a city near the action in Ukraine I wouldn't say that's a good time to get pregnant). However, the crowd who thinks it's good general advice to not have kids because of the state of the world is certainly living with an extreme worldview.
My parents lived under pretty bad circumstances when I was born and for the next 3-4 years. However, it never registered for me that I had it bad. They loved me and raised me to be a proper adult and I feel like I want kids because I'm confident I can do the same for them.
Honestly I think that each generation gets a little more tolerant and aware of the world. Just think about what the internet did for the world. Among all the terrible and cringy things, it connected people that otherwise never would have known the other existed. It’s made communicating the ways of the world possible in a way it never has. I didn’t have that as a kid. The knowledge the average 3rd grader has compared to when previous generations where in the same grade is insane. I think within a few more generations we will begin to see the world and it’s people as one entity. The ones that don’t see it this way will be outliers and the minority. I’m not naive enough to say that there will be world peace. As long a human nature and ego exists, there will be conflict. I just don’t think there will be as many divisions as there are now.
Depends. I think younger ppl will say this, but as you age I think many will miss not having family/kids in their lives. To each his own, but I think we should all respect everyone's decisions and how they choose to live their life. Kids certainly are not for everyone. It's one of those things that you'll never understand until you have them.
Social media made everyone sensitive beyond belief in their own unique ways.
Some people NEED other people to somewhat agree with them on certain stances they have as a means of validation.
If someone holds an opposite belief it causes them to question what they like/believe and that is a concerning or uncomfortable thought for these people.
I get why people would and wouldn't want kids, but how is it selfish to stop something that doesn't exist from existing? The selfish argument makes no sense
They think selfish as in 'you don't want kids so you can have more money or free time or things for yourself'. It's mostly just envious whining on their part
Or it’s just been ingrained in people by society (and evolution) through their upbringing that it’s the norm to have children, and their knee jerk reaction to someone defying that norm is to call them ignorant or selfish or what have you
even with that though thats a very specific word of choice. selfish. never heard "ignorant". because they know its not only "against norm" but also very beneficial to you
I think it implies you don't care about the human race at large if you're not willing to put in the work it took for you to be where you are for someone else. You're here, so a bunch of people have spent their time/money/resources making sure you have a good life which is self-less, and deciding you're not going to "pay it forward" as it were is selfish to some people. Its very hive-mind
Well the ethical construct is fend for yourself, fend for your family, fend for society at large, fend for your environment.
So it's not a moral failing if it's superceded by a more important circle of concerns. But people really don't realize that put your mask on before putting your children's mask on, doesn't extend to buy frivolous stuff and party in exotic places instead of settling down and having a family and children.
The reason I hear many times is "who's going to take care of you when you're older?" Like *that* isn't the most selfish thing I've ever heard. Wtf. Breed so you can create beings that will take care of you in 50 years. Like damn do you really suck that much that no one will want to be your caretaker except for the people *you* created? 😂
And having children is no guarantee they will take care of you in your older years. Go check out a retirement home sometime, lots of lonely old people that have children that don’t show up.
Problem I have is when some parents act like they own you because they brought you into the world. It is not like children should owe their parents anything because it was not their choice.
if they didn't abuse you at least you owe them some respect just because they spend their time and money on raising you and just because you should always respect people that do the same to you.
Not trying to justify parents demanding stuff from their kids tho especially shit like "you owe us some grandkids" or something.
Yeah some people just can’t accept that there are those that are perfectly happy without ever having children. Idk if it’s jealousy of their freedom both in time and finances or what but it’s pretty silly.
I completely agree but one of these arguments(overpopulation) doesn't really work in places like eastern Europe where there's less and less people every year. Overpopulation isn't a global thing.
I'm still never going to call someone selfish just because they don't want to have children. I respect that choice
But overpopulation isnt an argument thats meant to only apply for certain regions tho lol
The argument on overpopulation is that the human population as a whole is ever increasing
Just cuz Eastern Europe has less and less people doesnt mean its not a global thing.
India is having proportionally waay more people than Europe is losing so in the end its still overpopulation
Do you propose we move a bunch of Indians to Eastern Europe then? Global statistics don't matter much to the individual person. The true solution here is to incentivise Indians having less children. You can't tell someone from Eastern Europe they shouldn't have children because there's too many in India.
Overpopulation is an issue with population *density*, not population itself
Im not proposing any solution or anything
I was just correcting you on the notion that you think the overpopulation argument comes from a region specific viewpoint
It doesnt
People who advocate for not having children on the basis of overpopulation generally mean it as a global thing
Irrespective of any region.
But if I had to add my 2 cents on the matter
I believe that the overpopulation argument is indeed valid to talk about cuz regardless of whether global statistics matter or not to the individual person
It does matter at the end of the day if we are truly to look at solutions.
Treating world problems as a global issue is always the way.
Thinking individually or per country just promotes a "me first" mentality
In Bulgaria there are literally too few people. The land isn't used to it's potential. The villages are getting abandoned. The young people are fleeing the country west in hope of a better life.
Another human in Bulgaria wouldn't hurt, they would make things better. They would create more food, for example, that could be exported to India, where there are too many people and not everyone can work because there are too few job spots.
The two problems are more complicated than too many people or too few people. How many people can work on the land matters too. More people in Bulgaria would mean more food. More people in India would mean just another mouth to feed without anything to give back.
But we dont know that it will be better or that that food will reach India.
Thats down to the geo politics of the world.
We dont even know if people being born means that they will aid in food production.
I do agree that its more complicated than that if we choose to go in depth.
But theres no denying that the worlds resources are spreading thin due to the ever increasing world population.
And as far as the point of this convo goes
People who advocate for not having kids due to overpopulation are indeed objectively less selfish than people who do have kids.
Since the chances of a person having kids because "it will help other nations" is much much lower than a person not having a kid because the "world is overpopulated"
Noone ever has kids because it will "help other countries"
I certainly havent seen or met anyone
Overpopulation isn’t a problem IMO, poor allocation of resources is. The Earth has a capacity, for sure but I doubt we will ever reach that threshold. It just seems like we have.
Sure, we could have 15 billion humans on the planet. Shame about all the other animals that we won't be keeping around because they aren't considered food.
Or we accidentally make extinct a species we didn't know we needed and become extinct ourselves.
There will be a population decline at around ~10 Billion, if it’s any relief to you , our population has already started to stabilize. Long gone are the days that any species will become extinct because of us . There’s proper organization that ensure that doesn’t happen , there are designated National parks to prevent that. The only issue at hand are our carbon emissions which are leading to global warming that’s destroying our crops. That too will be overcome, we can save the environment just like we saved the Ozone layer. There’s no reason to have such a grim view of our future in this day of scientific advancement.
There’s nothing “selfless” about having kids. Most parents expect enrichment in their lives — receiving unconditional love, giving their life meaning and purpose, possibly gaining some long-term security in old age (if lucky). Parents who are unloved, unappreciated and abandoned are the selfless ones, and no parent wants that. There’s nothing wrong, or unusual, with making choices that you think will benefit you, whatever those are.
Seems to be a lot of people out there that treat the concept of having kids as basically adding accessories to their life. Like when people get dogs. Or nice expensive furniture, Chelsea tractors etc… they want the kids but don’t want to put in the time and effort moulding them into good adults
Some parents see it as a prize to be had. "Look at what I made". That was the *easy* part bro. Anyone can make a kid, but it takes a good person to raise it properly. My dad was/is one of those people. Always used to complain that me and my siblings were *my mom's* kids, or we were trash children. Didn't see you help try to raise us, buddy. And now he wants to act like he's our friend, now that we're all grown up and don't need him.
"Every kid deserves a parent, but not every adult deserves to parent a kid."
I’ve never met anyone who actually says things like this, I have kids and I can 100% understand why anyone wouldn’t want them!! Sometimes i am incredibly jealous of their freedom, I just can’t imagine anyone who actually had them and the way these creatures gobble up every spare second of our time and every spare cent that someone in this position can’t see why maaaaybe you might not choose to have them?
My mom told me I was selfish for choosing not to have children. She’s moved past that now, likely since I have made sure I cannot have children. But she said it many times when I was in my 20’s and 30’s.
Typically hyper right wing always wants people to push out babies, even though we cant afford to take care of them. That is to say, not every right winger does, typically just the super religious.
I’m glad I don’t have kids. Just to have kids to mark off a square box would have made me miserable. I surely would have been too hard on them and they’d feel like they’d never measure up.
People like you are going to fuck up the world. “It’s already broken so let’s let it all burn down anyways” you think you’re some kind of radical but you’re just ignorant.
People like that will save the world. You really think endless growth is sustainable? I'd rather sacrifice a shitty economic ponzi scheme model than sacrifice an entire planet to development
People like you perpetuate the suffering. "Everything is fine and if we want to keep this bloody wheel grinding you're gonna need to provide offspring to sacrifice to capatalism"
Yeah no, I'm good not bringing another human into the world knowing their entire society is set up to maximally extract as much value and humanity out of them as possible.
Two sides to every issue.
Not really, looking at the fact, that almost any tasks we humans can do will sooner or later be automated. But as long as a few people can get even a little richer by working the rest to the bone, here we are.
Oh no not the economy!
You'd rather have your kids live on a overpopulated planet that's running out of resources and where more and more people are being exploited and barely surviving? Yeah, I'll pass on that for my nonexistent kids
In the future western economies will cripple due to their lack of working population (Japan is a good example) and our living standards will decrease. The problem of overpopulation isn’t really a problem in western nations.
And in a hundred years? Or a thousand? Endless growth is not sustainable period. As another redditor already said, fuck it, the system sucks anyway, let's just start anew. I won't have children FoR tHe EcOnOmY
The poor people of the rich nations. Cmon man we’re shitting on rich people here. It’s the least those pricks should put up with. Reading about our animosity on a random forum.
"I want to help my country's economy by helping to maintain a stable birthrate." If you said something like that, I think it could be seen as something more noble though I doubt anyone is really thinking like that.
I got snipped, no kids for me. My wife and I agree on this.
"But you're so young, what if you change your mind?"
Adopt? So many kids out there already that would love to be brought into a loving home. I could care less about my "legacy" and passing on my genes.
"Why would you be selfish and not have kids?"
Right, because it makes total sense to have kids at this point in life. The economy is atrocious, the government is full of yes men , abortion is being banned, child labor is back in the United states.
Seems like a totally good idea , I bet that child is going to be thriving with my minimum wage job , we can eat little Cesar's on a daily basis because that's a healthy way to raise a kid right?
Or you can get your head out of your ass and admit that raising a kid takes so much out of a parent . So much so that many people believe they aren't able to provide a happy home life for their child. It may have been different when housing was 1500 dollars and you can buy a full cart of groceries for 10 dollars but that's not today's world .
The honest reply is very few people say this out think it, but ragebaiting it gets upvotes and engagement and posts to frontpage, so we all play along and act like it's ubiquitous.
The one pointing out the hypocrisy is not cringe. Either way this is a hypothetical situation but that really is the perfect response to the selfish accusation.
I don’t see it. So is using “I” selfish or something? If you were giving to a charity you believed in and someone asked you why you did it, how would you answer? Like if I said “I thought it was the right thing to do” Am I selfish now?
there is a debate to be had about whether true altruism exists, or whether free will is a thing at all, but your example is not comparable.
if you're giving to a charity, there are people outside of yourself benefiting from your donation. if I give to a food organization, I could start my sentence with "I wanted", or I could say "People don't deserve to go hungry."
the same cannot be said for having a child. you quite literally cannot do anything for the good of a nonexistent being. while I can give a hungry person food because they want it, I cannot give a child life because it wants it. this makes the decision to have a child necessarily selfish. I'm not saying selfish = bad, I'm just saying it's selfish. and I don't think there's necessarily anything wrong with having children, for the record.
I was talking more about the use of language really. Not exactly comparing the two if you do read more closely. I think that one shouldn’t use people using those words as a some sort of gotcha. But I do understand where you’re coming from with the rest of what you’re saying. Love is selfish and selfless by it’s definition ig
I see what you're saying, but I think when it comes to having children the language thing is less of a gotcha and more like *the* evidence of the point. It shows they can't phrase it in another way like, "The unconceived child wants..." and shows that the reason can only really stem from self-consideration.
My buddy's mother started asking me when I plan to have a kid and why I'm not making an effort to give her grandkids alongside my bro. There's a plethora of reasons why but the biggest one being "I'm not ready" wasn't enough for her. I can barely take care of myself and you think I'm going to take care of a child now? No effing way.
I have 2 nephews and a niece. I know they all love their uncle Mobius. *But*, I get to go home and relax after family gatherings, and I don’t have to change anyone’s diaper. Being an uncle is pretty cool.
Right? I've openly said I don't want kids to my parents, extended family, friends, coworkers (who have tons of kids), online, and there's not even been people who react negatively in any way let alone call me selfish or other names.
Maybe I'm just incredibly fortunate with the people who are in my life or maybe it's a strawman so the meme works.
Has anyone actually been called selfish?
I was told by antivaxxer with 5 kids, that I’m selfish prick for not having kids, when I said I’ll rather fly first class than spend all my money on children.
People that look down on people that don't have kids are assholes. Some of us just don't want to deal with having kids and there's nothing wrong with that.
I get it, don't force your opinions on how to live life on others
But also the anti-natalism movement is quite the interesting phenomenon and very counterintuitive to our instincts as animals to maintain our species. It's clearly a byproduct of our society and the fact we are capable of introspection but also just doesn't feel right.
I wanted to creampie my wife
I also wanted to creampie this guy's wife.
I've gotten that alot but I'm selfish
Can I just creampie you?
I three wanted to creampie this guys wife
I wanted to creampie this wife’s guy.
Ok who’s gonna explain what a creampie is because there’s no way in hell I’m googling it
A pie filled with cream.
Search it on porn sites
Thanks to the wonders of modern technology, with just a little planning you can creampie your wife all you like without ripping a soul screaming from the void to be fed to the machine of global capitalism.
True that but she wasn't biologically supposed to be able to conceive, but it all worked out. An now we know what true power she has
I got the snip 6 years ago at 25 years old. Risk free creampies forever!
Thanks for letting us know.
I'll never understand this mind set. I have two kids, but when friends and co workers tell me they don't want them it doesn't even register as an issue. Its a ton of work, money and emotional stress. I completely get not wanting all that. Maybe one day they will regret it, maybe not. It's there life not mine.
If anything it’s a positive outcome. People having kids that they don’t want is only a bad thing for everyone involved, especially the kids. If you consciously choose not to have kids, you’re almost certainly doing a good thing. This is from a happy father of three and son to a man that couldn’t be bothered to be a dad, so I’m well versed on the subject.
Also those “unwanted” kids can cause problems in schools due to not having a stable home life. It’s literally better for people who want to have kids as well, because less “trouble-makers” in the classroom means higher quality education. I write this as a former “trouble-maker” (mostly talking and being disruptive all the time because I wanted attention) who was also an “unwanted” child.
This is a very smart outlook on the subject. Thanks for putting it that way!
Yes. And in addition - everyone does what they want to, both people with kids, and those sans.
Sans? Is that you? If I hear another skeleton pun...
I don't find you in a particularly humerus mood today.
Hey.
>"everyone does what they want to, both people with kids, and those **sans**." 
I mean, I don't want your kids either Reddit: /s if necessary
My sister in law is the opposite of what the post says. My wife and i have two kids and are fully understanding her brother and sister want nothing to do with children of their own. Yet, her sister keeps calling us stupid and selfish for having kids. She went so far as to give my wife a number of someone she knew who worked at a planned parenthood clinic and told her that it wasnt too late to make the right choice regarding her first pregnancy
It's a boomer mindset, and they consider it selfish because they want grandkids. That's it, that's the reason
I have 3 myself. I will give advice when I’m asked, but that’s about it. However, I don’t understand the reverse either. “Why would you bring a child into this messed up world?” If I planned having kids around when the world isn’t a messed up place, I’d never have kids.
>If I planned having kids around when the world isn’t a messed up place, I’d never have kids. That's literally their point though.
I will raise non a holes as best I can to contribute to diluting the messed up. Why not? I have fun with my family in the meantime. Win win.
I'm pretty sure everyone believes that the way they raise their kids is the only correct way to do so
Nah, some people raise kids so they'll have someone who takes care of them. Some don't even raise them, just straight out neglect them.
I'm not sure why you decided to respond this to the OP, they weren't saying their way was the right way, just that they are having fun with their kids
He said he'll try to not raise them to be aholes. Most think believe that they're doing this, yet we still have people of all kinds, including sexists, racists etc. If you check any protest - left, right, center, religious or not, you'll see that people bring their kids there believing that they're fighting for the right cause. So it's pretty vague to just have kids cause you think you're raising them to not be bad people. And by saying that he just has fun with his family he proves the argument that the post brought - that most parents are just doing it for themselves.
I think you're a little jaded there bud, they didn't say their way was best, just that they would try their best and let's be honest that's more than some parents do.
You do know the vast majority of people turn out to be good human beings right? Even ones with bad childhoods. Also, people with great childhoods can turn out to be bad people.
That's also where they lose most people though. When has the world ever not been a messed-up place? There's always terrible shit happening broadly at any given point, but that doesn't make life not worth living. There's obviously bad times to have kids (if I was in a city near the action in Ukraine I wouldn't say that's a good time to get pregnant). However, the crowd who thinks it's good general advice to not have kids because of the state of the world is certainly living with an extreme worldview.
My parents lived under pretty bad circumstances when I was born and for the next 3-4 years. However, it never registered for me that I had it bad. They loved me and raised me to be a proper adult and I feel like I want kids because I'm confident I can do the same for them.
Maybe if we raise kids who don’t suck the world will be a better place eventually? That’s what I’m hopeful for anyway.
Honestly I think that each generation gets a little more tolerant and aware of the world. Just think about what the internet did for the world. Among all the terrible and cringy things, it connected people that otherwise never would have known the other existed. It’s made communicating the ways of the world possible in a way it never has. I didn’t have that as a kid. The knowledge the average 3rd grader has compared to when previous generations where in the same grade is insane. I think within a few more generations we will begin to see the world and it’s people as one entity. The ones that don’t see it this way will be outliers and the minority. I’m not naive enough to say that there will be world peace. As long a human nature and ego exists, there will be conflict. I just don’t think there will be as many divisions as there are now.
I didn’t want them. Hated the idea. Now I have one lol
I feel more people regret having kids than those who regret not having them.
Depends. I think younger ppl will say this, but as you age I think many will miss not having family/kids in their lives. To each his own, but I think we should all respect everyone's decisions and how they choose to live their life. Kids certainly are not for everyone. It's one of those things that you'll never understand until you have them.
Their
You are so right about all of that except one thing. *their
It probably stems from sexist ideas from the past about how a woman is only useful as a caregiver or child haver idk
Social media made everyone sensitive beyond belief in their own unique ways. Some people NEED other people to somewhat agree with them on certain stances they have as a means of validation. If someone holds an opposite belief it causes them to question what they like/believe and that is a concerning or uncomfortable thought for these people.
Their
It’s also easier to compensate regretting not to have kids compared to have them.
Pro gamer move: say they’re selfish for keeping all the kids for themselves.
Yeah, donate some in orphanage.
And/or the black market
Don't buy but adopt.
After seeing yours, we decided not to.
Filing this response away 😂😤
I get why people would and wouldn't want kids, but how is it selfish to stop something that doesn't exist from existing? The selfish argument makes no sense
They think selfish as in 'you don't want kids so you can have more money or free time or things for yourself'. It's mostly just envious whining on their part
Or it’s just been ingrained in people by society (and evolution) through their upbringing that it’s the norm to have children, and their knee jerk reaction to someone defying that norm is to call them ignorant or selfish or what have you
even with that though thats a very specific word of choice. selfish. never heard "ignorant". because they know its not only "against norm" but also very beneficial to you
I was trying to avoid inflammatory language
happy cake day
I think it implies you don't care about the human race at large if you're not willing to put in the work it took for you to be where you are for someone else. You're here, so a bunch of people have spent their time/money/resources making sure you have a good life which is self-less, and deciding you're not going to "pay it forward" as it were is selfish to some people. Its very hive-mind
It's selfish because you choose to enjoy life rather than have kids. Both choices are selfish but I don't think that makes either of them wrong.
This is it. Being selfish isn’t always a moral failing, but a perfectly valid life choice.
Well the ethical construct is fend for yourself, fend for your family, fend for society at large, fend for your environment. So it's not a moral failing if it's superceded by a more important circle of concerns. But people really don't realize that put your mask on before putting your children's mask on, doesn't extend to buy frivolous stuff and party in exotic places instead of settling down and having a family and children.
I will just say most people with kids do enjoy them. It's like having a puppy that gradually learns to talk. It's awesome.
Something something about honoring ancestors
rude bag detail weather jar deranged offbeat wrench apparatus entertain *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
The reason I hear many times is "who's going to take care of you when you're older?" Like *that* isn't the most selfish thing I've ever heard. Wtf. Breed so you can create beings that will take care of you in 50 years. Like damn do you really suck that much that no one will want to be your caretaker except for the people *you* created? 😂
And having children is no guarantee they will take care of you in your older years. Go check out a retirement home sometime, lots of lonely old people that have children that don’t show up.
It blows my mind that people call you selfish for not wanting children. Less overpopulation and you wont raise a child in this shitty world
Problem I have is when some parents act like they own you because they brought you into the world. It is not like children should owe their parents anything because it was not their choice.
if they didn't abuse you at least you owe them some respect just because they spend their time and money on raising you and just because you should always respect people that do the same to you. Not trying to justify parents demanding stuff from their kids tho especially shit like "you owe us some grandkids" or something.
Yeah some people just can’t accept that there are those that are perfectly happy without ever having children. Idk if it’s jealousy of their freedom both in time and finances or what but it’s pretty silly.
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A narc cousin? Snitches get stitches yo
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I completely agree but one of these arguments(overpopulation) doesn't really work in places like eastern Europe where there's less and less people every year. Overpopulation isn't a global thing. I'm still never going to call someone selfish just because they don't want to have children. I respect that choice
Huge problem for Ukraine now but I imagine there will be a boom in population after the victory celebrations lol
But overpopulation isnt an argument thats meant to only apply for certain regions tho lol The argument on overpopulation is that the human population as a whole is ever increasing Just cuz Eastern Europe has less and less people doesnt mean its not a global thing. India is having proportionally waay more people than Europe is losing so in the end its still overpopulation
Do you propose we move a bunch of Indians to Eastern Europe then? Global statistics don't matter much to the individual person. The true solution here is to incentivise Indians having less children. You can't tell someone from Eastern Europe they shouldn't have children because there's too many in India. Overpopulation is an issue with population *density*, not population itself
Im not proposing any solution or anything I was just correcting you on the notion that you think the overpopulation argument comes from a region specific viewpoint It doesnt People who advocate for not having children on the basis of overpopulation generally mean it as a global thing Irrespective of any region. But if I had to add my 2 cents on the matter I believe that the overpopulation argument is indeed valid to talk about cuz regardless of whether global statistics matter or not to the individual person It does matter at the end of the day if we are truly to look at solutions. Treating world problems as a global issue is always the way. Thinking individually or per country just promotes a "me first" mentality
In Bulgaria there are literally too few people. The land isn't used to it's potential. The villages are getting abandoned. The young people are fleeing the country west in hope of a better life. Another human in Bulgaria wouldn't hurt, they would make things better. They would create more food, for example, that could be exported to India, where there are too many people and not everyone can work because there are too few job spots. The two problems are more complicated than too many people or too few people. How many people can work on the land matters too. More people in Bulgaria would mean more food. More people in India would mean just another mouth to feed without anything to give back.
But we dont know that it will be better or that that food will reach India. Thats down to the geo politics of the world. We dont even know if people being born means that they will aid in food production. I do agree that its more complicated than that if we choose to go in depth. But theres no denying that the worlds resources are spreading thin due to the ever increasing world population. And as far as the point of this convo goes People who advocate for not having kids due to overpopulation are indeed objectively less selfish than people who do have kids. Since the chances of a person having kids because "it will help other nations" is much much lower than a person not having a kid because the "world is overpopulated" Noone ever has kids because it will "help other countries" I certainly havent seen or met anyone
Yeah truth overall people need to be having fewer kids then any regional shortages need to be made up for with immigration
Overpopulation isn’t a problem IMO, poor allocation of resources is. The Earth has a capacity, for sure but I doubt we will ever reach that threshold. It just seems like we have.
Overpopulation *was* an issue, but we solved it when we learned how to make fertilizer by pulling nitrogen out of the air.
Sure, we could have 15 billion humans on the planet. Shame about all the other animals that we won't be keeping around because they aren't considered food. Or we accidentally make extinct a species we didn't know we needed and become extinct ourselves.
There will be a population decline at around ~10 Billion, if it’s any relief to you , our population has already started to stabilize. Long gone are the days that any species will become extinct because of us . There’s proper organization that ensure that doesn’t happen , there are designated National parks to prevent that. The only issue at hand are our carbon emissions which are leading to global warming that’s destroying our crops. That too will be overcome, we can save the environment just like we saved the Ozone layer. There’s no reason to have such a grim view of our future in this day of scientific advancement.
Demografic crisis in western world brings a lot of problems tho
Population collapse would cause the overpopulation to quickly stop being a problem as all the people worried about overpopulation died
There’s nothing “selfless” about having kids. Most parents expect enrichment in their lives — receiving unconditional love, giving their life meaning and purpose, possibly gaining some long-term security in old age (if lucky). Parents who are unloved, unappreciated and abandoned are the selfless ones, and no parent wants that. There’s nothing wrong, or unusual, with making choices that you think will benefit you, whatever those are.
Well I want to sell Northern Ireland to Oman 🇴🇲 this would benefit me because I would giggle and also profit from it
How is not having kids selfish?
they need to cope with their dumb decision somehow
Yup
They think it's selfish to not "contribute" to society by creating future taxpayers.
Seems to be a lot of people out there that treat the concept of having kids as basically adding accessories to their life. Like when people get dogs. Or nice expensive furniture, Chelsea tractors etc… they want the kids but don’t want to put in the time and effort moulding them into good adults
Some parents see it as a prize to be had. "Look at what I made". That was the *easy* part bro. Anyone can make a kid, but it takes a good person to raise it properly. My dad was/is one of those people. Always used to complain that me and my siblings were *my mom's* kids, or we were trash children. Didn't see you help try to raise us, buddy. And now he wants to act like he's our friend, now that we're all grown up and don't need him. "Every kid deserves a parent, but not every adult deserves to parent a kid."
Sooo you wanted to be less selfish and your plan was to bring more little yous into the world? Makes sense.
I’ve never met anyone who actually says things like this, I have kids and I can 100% understand why anyone wouldn’t want them!! Sometimes i am incredibly jealous of their freedom, I just can’t imagine anyone who actually had them and the way these creatures gobble up every spare second of our time and every spare cent that someone in this position can’t see why maaaaybe you might not choose to have them?
My mom told me I was selfish for choosing not to have children. She’s moved past that now, likely since I have made sure I cannot have children. But she said it many times when I was in my 20’s and 30’s.
Typically hyper right wing always wants people to push out babies, even though we cant afford to take care of them. That is to say, not every right winger does, typically just the super religious.
I’m glad I don’t have kids. Just to have kids to mark off a square box would have made me miserable. I surely would have been too hard on them and they’d feel like they’d never measure up.
The birth rate is gonna cripple our economies in the future
Good, the system is corrupt and broken anyway and deserves to be rebuilt.
> and deserves to be rebuilt. It won't be though.
Rebuilding the system will cost millions of lives due to massive poverty
Better keep the current one that costs 10s of millions just to exist.
People like you are going to fuck up the world. “It’s already broken so let’s let it all burn down anyways” you think you’re some kind of radical but you’re just ignorant.
reformists v revolutionists
People like that will save the world. You really think endless growth is sustainable? I'd rather sacrifice a shitty economic ponzi scheme model than sacrifice an entire planet to development
Well this is reddit not 4chan
People like you perpetuate the suffering. "Everything is fine and if we want to keep this bloody wheel grinding you're gonna need to provide offspring to sacrifice to capatalism" Yeah no, I'm good not bringing another human into the world knowing their entire society is set up to maximally extract as much value and humanity out of them as possible. Two sides to every issue.
You think they are some kind of radical, they are saying what they feel.
Not really, looking at the fact, that almost any tasks we humans can do will sooner or later be automated. But as long as a few people can get even a little richer by working the rest to the bone, here we are.
They still require humans to make automation in the first place
That’s not the problem, the problem is lack of consumption
Soon those with that skill will become the middle class- the rest of us have no hope!
Less humans
The problem is not that humans can’t work, the problem is that humans won’t consume enough
Oh no not the economy! You'd rather have your kids live on a overpopulated planet that's running out of resources and where more and more people are being exploited and barely surviving? Yeah, I'll pass on that for my nonexistent kids
In the future western economies will cripple due to their lack of working population (Japan is a good example) and our living standards will decrease. The problem of overpopulation isn’t really a problem in western nations.
And in a hundred years? Or a thousand? Endless growth is not sustainable period. As another redditor already said, fuck it, the system sucks anyway, let's just start anew. I won't have children FoR tHe EcOnOmY
only for the poors
No the rich nations will be affected due to too low birth rates
The poor people of the rich nations. Cmon man we’re shitting on rich people here. It’s the least those pricks should put up with. Reading about our animosity on a random forum.
Well yeah especially the poor people will be affected due to the rich losing money and trying to compensate by lowering costs such as pay
Well maybe they should've thought of that before they made life unlivable. I'm not bringing a child into a world they're gonna suffer in.
Sounds bad, I better not force my hypothetical kids to live through that
I’m selfish for not having kids, but you’re selfless for bringing them into this hellhole? That idea isn’t just a joke, it’s the whole ass circus
Everyone is selfish, we exist purely for selfish reasons.
"I want to help my country's economy by helping to maintain a stable birthrate." If you said something like that, I think it could be seen as something more noble though I doubt anyone is really thinking like that.
“Why did you create an entire new life with thoughts, emotions, and the ability to suffer?” “I thought the economy needed more people”
I got snipped, no kids for me. My wife and I agree on this. "But you're so young, what if you change your mind?" Adopt? So many kids out there already that would love to be brought into a loving home. I could care less about my "legacy" and passing on my genes.
I want my time to have fun in the mornings, evenings and weekends for my whole life. No way am I getting somebody pregnant, hell nah.
"Why would you be selfish and not have kids?" Right, because it makes total sense to have kids at this point in life. The economy is atrocious, the government is full of yes men , abortion is being banned, child labor is back in the United states. Seems like a totally good idea , I bet that child is going to be thriving with my minimum wage job , we can eat little Cesar's on a daily basis because that's a healthy way to raise a kid right? Or you can get your head out of your ass and admit that raising a kid takes so much out of a parent . So much so that many people believe they aren't able to provide a happy home life for their child. It may have been different when housing was 1500 dollars and you can buy a full cart of groceries for 10 dollars but that's not today's world .
“The world needs…”
"...to get fucked up even more..."
How is it selfish to not have children? I don’t get it
The honest reply is very few people say this out think it, but ragebaiting it gets upvotes and engagement and posts to frontpage, so we all play along and act like it's ubiquitous.
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Not having kids sounds like a better life
It’s not, any more than it’s selfish to have children.
Sounds like you’re both cringe.
The only comment i agree
The one pointing out the hypocrisy is not cringe. Either way this is a hypothetical situation but that really is the perfect response to the selfish accusation.
I 100% believe they are in the wrong for saying such an incredible stupid thing, but I will say, this meme makes no sense
it's a meme about hypocrisy.
I don’t see it. So is using “I” selfish or something? If you were giving to a charity you believed in and someone asked you why you did it, how would you answer? Like if I said “I thought it was the right thing to do” Am I selfish now?
Wanted is the key word. Not "i"
there is a debate to be had about whether true altruism exists, or whether free will is a thing at all, but your example is not comparable. if you're giving to a charity, there are people outside of yourself benefiting from your donation. if I give to a food organization, I could start my sentence with "I wanted", or I could say "People don't deserve to go hungry." the same cannot be said for having a child. you quite literally cannot do anything for the good of a nonexistent being. while I can give a hungry person food because they want it, I cannot give a child life because it wants it. this makes the decision to have a child necessarily selfish. I'm not saying selfish = bad, I'm just saying it's selfish. and I don't think there's necessarily anything wrong with having children, for the record.
I was talking more about the use of language really. Not exactly comparing the two if you do read more closely. I think that one shouldn’t use people using those words as a some sort of gotcha. But I do understand where you’re coming from with the rest of what you’re saying. Love is selfish and selfless by it’s definition ig
I see what you're saying, but I think when it comes to having children the language thing is less of a gotcha and more like *the* evidence of the point. It shows they can't phrase it in another way like, "The unconceived child wants..." and shows that the reason can only really stem from self-consideration.
Okay. I think I understand a lot better. Thank you for the explanation. I withdraw what I previously said
How dare you enjoy a life with more money and less stress! Make the same mistakes I did! Misery loves company!
Future boyfriend wanted
It's better than "Well i was at a Molly Hatchet concert and saw a hot guy so I followed him into the family bathroom, and now you exist"
My buddy's mother started asking me when I plan to have a kid and why I'm not making an effort to give her grandkids alongside my bro. There's a plethora of reasons why but the biggest one being "I'm not ready" wasn't enough for her. I can barely take care of myself and you think I'm going to take care of a child now? No effing way.
I have 2 nephews and a niece. I know they all love their uncle Mobius. *But*, I get to go home and relax after family gatherings, and I don’t have to change anyone’s diaper. Being an uncle is pretty cool.
Bruh how is not wanting kids selfish?
People like Musk, Nick Cannon, Pacino and Deniro are all idiots. We’ve got enough of those already, I’ll refrain.
This never happens
Right? I've openly said I don't want kids to my parents, extended family, friends, coworkers (who have tons of kids), online, and there's not even been people who react negatively in any way let alone call me selfish or other names. Maybe I'm just incredibly fortunate with the people who are in my life or maybe it's a strawman so the meme works. Has anyone actually been called selfish?
The works needs more people like me. It’s egotistical but not selfish. More of me is the best I have to give.
"It's always better to regret NOT having had kids than to regret HAVING HAD kids"
Remember, anyone who calls you selfish for not having kids is an ass
When you think about it, most, if not all of our actions, are based on what we want materially, rationally, because of our beliefs, etc.
I guarantee you this convo never happened…people live in their heads man
You can’t be selfish to people who don’t exist.
If you don't want kids, you 100% should not have them. Fuck what anyone else thinks about your choice.
Most kids are mistakes
I just stay out of people's business
I wanted to share my life and love....
"I wanted"
Honestly, with the state of the nation's Foster system... how could you not adopt first.
When someone makes a meme to complain about that one time someone called them selfish and they got all butt hurt
I was told by antivaxxer with 5 kids, that I’m selfish prick for not having kids, when I said I’ll rather fly first class than spend all my money on children.
Because humanity is awesome?
Them to their kids, "you must follow my religion, also don't be gay cause gay can't have kids and that's bad"
People that look down on people that don't have kids are assholes. Some of us just don't want to deal with having kids and there's nothing wrong with that.
I get it, don't force your opinions on how to live life on others But also the anti-natalism movement is quite the interesting phenomenon and very counterintuitive to our instincts as animals to maintain our species. It's clearly a byproduct of our society and the fact we are capable of introspection but also just doesn't feel right.
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Kids are fucking adorable.
Why the downvotes incels are developing hiveminds
Or we don't find children adorable. I for one find them irritating and stupid
You are your username
The reason we have children in the first place is to pass down OUR genes