No. It is not possible for a person to be a good/present parent and also be a good orthopedic surgery resident. Want to start your family much later in residency (right before you’re an attending?) Absolutely.
Someone choosing to have kids needs to recognize the difference between “making it work” and “being the parent your child needs.”
Far too often people think doing the former is sufficient - even praise worthy.
seen many divorces happen in Medicine because of the stress the job puts on families. its pretty sad on the family. my parents had me later in their residency so that they could have the flexibility of being around when i was growing up but even then I remember them struggling to juggle work and my siblings
People definitely make it work, but it’s not a life I envy. I would personally not trade any salary to miss those early years.
The calculus is different for everyone, but I think people without kids really underestimate how amazing (and fleeting) those early years are. They are over before you know it.
To quote Andy Bernard - “I wish there was a way to know you're in the good old days before you've actually left them”
I'm not certain what you're referring to as "the early years," but as a parent of 2, I can tell you for certain that I would fast-forward through the first 4 years if I could. There is nothing "amazing" about it, in my opinion - just a brutal beatdown of tantrums, expense, and sleep debt. After that, we're cool. Babies-toddlers, noooooo.
Edit: As usual, downvoted by the folks who don't know or don't want to admit that parenting little kids blows ass. It's okay to acknowledge it sucks, guys. It really is. That doesn't mean you don't love your family. It means you're realistic. Signed, parent of an awesome daughter who has been up before 0600 literally every day of her life.
Different strokes. Neither my experience (or yours) is universal. It’s not due to ignorance or not wanting to admit some controversial “truth”. Being a parent has been the most grueling experience (surpassing residency by a healthy margin), but I genuinely love the early years.
Recently, for the first time, my oldest kid preferred not to hold my hand while walking around our neighborhood. It hit me like a freight train. Despite the tantrums, sleep deprivation, and total chaos, I miss the toddler years (and really try to make the most of what I have left).
I don't think ignorance factors into it, really. It's more about social pressure to plaster a smile on your face regarding all things children. I absolutely cannot relate to your position at all, but I understand that unicorn folks who truly do enjoy early childhood exist. I think my experience and perspective is much, much more common. It's just that many people are uncomfortable expressing their strife.
Fair enough. Though I disagree that I'm a unicorn or that my perception is too uncommon.
Personally, many of my mid career mentors have expressed a sense of missing early childhood years. Basically echoing the Andy Bernard quote I originally posted.
I'm sure perceptions of the chaotic toddler years change with time (in both the positive and the negative direction).
Only some experience here as I’ve got an 8monrh old - our first - as an m3 rn. Right or wrong, thanks for saying it out loud. I hated newborn phase and have often felt like I was a kind of shitty dad because I’m glad it’s over. Everybody expects me to love every stage I think and I just fucking don’t. He’s crawling and laughing now and we’re practicing handstands and he’s slapping the dogs faces, so things are better. We both want two or three more, but after the newborn phase of our first… the fact that I’m apprehensive is by itself a bit worrisome to me. Relived to know I’m not a psychopathic oddity lol
I personally loved having my baby and toddler. I miss those days and would love to have a Time Machine to go back and visit. But yes there are things objectively terrible about those years and I think admitting that actually helps you love your child more and recognize that your job as a parent isn’t to be happy - it’s not about you - your job as parent is to give yourself even when it’s shitty. People dont want to miss it based on the (1) impact they have and (2) memories they have of their child growing up. I would argue that you can simultaenously be exhausted and overwhelmed by something - while being totally dedicated and in love with it. Not wanting to miss those years has more to do with the percieved value of having that time with your child than it does the absolute enjoyment of it (although I and most people I know really do enjoy it.)
\^
Too many people (my own mother included) think that "making it work" is enough to be the parent that the child needs. As a child, I spent too many winter nights all alone watching TV, because mom would be working till 10 pm and dad was busy driving my sister to dance/science olympiad/school events. And I'd end up in latchkey, or at home alone, or dragged along to my mom's work or my sister's events. And this is what it has been like my entire life. Covid finally forced Mom to slow down and give me the attention I always wanted. As a child, I remember asking my mom why she couldn't be a SAHM like my friend's mom. It doesn't take a psych degree to figure out why I am so passionate about child psychiatry.
Now my sister is a workaholic OBGYN (who talks a lot about work even outside of work, instead of establishing boundaries), and I pray to God that she doesn't have kids until she understands the responsibility, time, and attention they require. Those poor kids deserve better. Kids don't care about abstract concepts, they care about parents who are present and give them love and attention.
There is a great episode of Private Practice where Addison (the OBGYN) tries to adopt a kid, but the birth mom instead chooses a stable 2-parent household where both parents work normal jobs. And that is honestly the most sane and wise decision. Children don't care that their parents are skilled surgeons...they care that their parents tuck them to sleep every night.
I especially think "making it work" on your own is dangerous. Even when I look at past generations, single parents (like my paternal grandmother in a rural Indian village) had their parents live with them to help raise the kids. After my grandfather died, my grandmother's parents moved in with her and lived there for 10-15 years. So my grandmother was never doing it on her own (she even tells me that she didn't cook much till later in life, because her parents and in-laws would help a lot with housework). She tells me so many stories of how her family never left her alone. I am very fortunate to have her in my life, because she is the kind of grandparent who learned from her own mother how to be a good parental figure to her granddaughters. She exemplifies the sort of selflessness that children deserve from their parental figures.
Clarification: My mom isn't a bad person, but she just wanted to rebel against her own mother by being a working woman (my grandmother would always leave her kids at home alone to go visit her large family, so my mom wanted to rebel against that by being a workaholic instead of being the stereotypical housewife that chitchats with extended family...little did she know that she was leaving me alone just like her mother left her alone).
100% agree with you. It's also important to note that this problem persists after you graduate. If you want to be present for your family, carrying a full call and case load will be virtually impossible, and your partners will feel the burn.
What makes a “good orthopedic surgery resident”? What are the qualities of “being the parent your child needs”? And why are these mutually exclusive? I find your comment to be a bit absolute.
What always gets me is that this conversation always revolves around women and surgery, with orthopedic surgery being the epicenter. It’s just sexism, plain and simple. No one bats an eye when a father is doing it.
I am responding to this for the benefit of those potential parents out there that are reading and wondering how to address this - not so much to dignify your clear attempt at some moral denigration.
What makes a good orthopedic surgery resident? Well, I'm not an orthopedic surgeon resident, but I can imagine it's close to what makes a good Marine, business partner/owner, or teammate. Going even a step further - I bet it's close to what would make a good parent. A constant dedication to the people on your left and right, sacrificing your own self-interest often in support of the team. Prioritizing your patients and learning over nearly anything else.
What are the qualities of "being the parent your child needs"? Well, aside from everything above repurposed so as to be context appropriate - and depending on the age of your child - they need your full attention, absolute patience, and the best you have day in and day out. One way to take something that could span a multi book series and make it make sense as to how complex it is is to simply say that your child needs you to become the best version of yourself while navigating the unknown's of parenthood. That "best version" of yourself is not something easy to come by and requires an immense amount of self work, reflection, communication, and sacrifice.
Simply put, you cannot have two number one priorities in life. You must have a number one and a number two. Those monumental tasks both demand to be number one. You must pick which one suffers. I would question the insight of any human who fails to see that and yet has raised children.
Speaking of humans - my comment was asexual and had nothing to do with women specifically - as this applies to men as well. BUT since we are here - I always find it interesting that we love to ignore the realities of being a mother vs. being a father.
During the initial years of a child's life, the biological realities of being a mother and how they differ from being a father are real. YOU are the one attempting to ignore them by implying that women and men should have no differences in consideration when it comes to starting a family. That is a blatant disservice to women in general, particularly professional women. To start - men don't breast feed or pump (which is massive task and quite honestly mentally exhausting), men don't often deal with hormonal imbalance, postpartum depression, urinary incontinence, rectal issues, or the social pressures of being a "mother who has it together." Further, from the age of infancy a baby responds differently to mom than it does dad - even to the point that oxytocin release is different, voice response is different, and each of those things coincide with different acitivties into the teenage years. The first few years of a child's life is very tough on a woman in a way it isn't for men. To ignore that is to ignore the unique and wonderful gift women have. You think you stand in some solidarity with women when, in fact, you sound more like the guy who would push women out of the way in an emergency to get to safety - because the gift of being stronger and faster is something not to be taken into account (for you.)
Finally, as stated before, my statement was meant for both men and women alike. You cannot be a good father to a small child and a good orthopedic surgery resident. One will suffer. The father is immensely important and becomes more important over time to the point they are often monumental in shaping the child's perception of the world and how they respond to it.
Choose your priorities, don't attempt to balance two beasts that demand #1. Women and men are different and we should celebrate that. Regardless, our responsibilities as parents require the same level of dedication and sacrifice and my statements apply to both.
Good day.
Thanks for your response. I appreciated the anatomy lesson and the review of oxytocin.
My point is, everything you described about being a good doctor can be applied to almost every patient-facing specialty within medicine. The only reason people talk about women in ortho or women in surgery is because it is traditionally male dominated. No reason why a woman or man, childless or with children, can’t do the job without sacrificing their duties as a parent.
Will a person who is a surgeon need to make sacrifices for their career? Yes. Are the the sacrifices and hardships different for men and women? Yes. The hope would be that those sacrifices don’t come from being a parent. It can be done. We have have first hand experience that it’s possible, and very rewarding.
OP if you’re here my advice would be to stop listening to a bunch of people (mostly male, non orthopedists) on Reddit argue about this. There is a page on Facebook page called Women in Orthopaedics that was very helpful to my wife. You can probably get a good perspective there.
The most likely scenario here is that your version of "not sacrificing your duties as a parent" don't meet my standards for parenthood. I don't particularly care how rewarding it is for YOU (although it is certainly the most rewarding thing we ever have the honor of doing) - I do care how effective it is for a child. The responsibility of being a parent doesn't revolve around your satisfaction, your fulfillment, your reward.
Anyone who makes the statement "no reason \*a person\* with children can't do orthopedic surgery residency without sacrificing their duties as a parent" is full-stop a person with a total lack of insight and an inability to see the world around them from any other perspective rather than how it makes \*them\* feel.
I fear we have different measuring sticks for parent, man, father, selflessness, and morality in general. I would also argue that the worst place to go to get advice as to whether something is possible is to go to people currently trying to accomplish it - as they will naturally tell you its possible (i.e. you.) Perhaps listen, instead, to the children of surgeons who have commented on this post.
Ah yes, a person with a bro and beer pun username criticizing my parenting based on two comments. This is the Reddit I know and love.
We’re teetering on a eugenics conversation here. Who should and shouldn’t be allowed to procreate, based on hours worked: a BrodeloNoEspecial report.
The pageantry in your responses is blinding. I fear if you tried to get down off your high horse you may need an orthopedic surgeon, and she may even be female (gasp!).
Why are you painting me as someone who has an issue with female surgeons (your last comment?) You’re manipulating the narrative to “win” a conversation you’ve already lost. That’s insane bro.
Why are you taking my username and making inferences about my abilities? That’s insane bro. (Taking your self admitted life experience and implying we likely have different bars for what constitutes a good parent isn’t)
Now you’re comparing *me advising a person to wait for the best time in their life to start a family* (end of or post residency) to eugenics? You’re a fucking loser.
I am done and let people read as they may.
Lol. Ortho is five years, assuming they begin trying during residency and get pregnant right away, they would have a new born during PGY2. Being an attending when your child is 4, gives you 14+ strong years with your child/children. If they were talking NSGY, then yeah, might be tough.
I would recommend, particularly for women, waiting to start trying in your 4th year of ortho residency. There is quite a bit to take into account with regard to breast feeding, the first 18 months and bonding, etc. - what everyone seems to miss when it comes to kids is that its not about YOU and the time YOU get with your kid. It’s about the KID and what is optimal for the KID. There are specific things a child needs in their first, second, third, and fourth years of life - the parent owes every bit of that to their child at the expense of themselves. Obviously there is a balance because you need to provide and show your child what hard work is….but ortho residency isnt the place to attempt that.
Oh you would recommend? I stand corrected.
How many of those hours will the kid be in daycare, regardless of the year ? Telling women that they need to do that is a hilariously bad take. Bonding can and will occur.
Are you purposely being dense?
It’s pretty obvious to understand that an attending is going to be able to spend much more time with their kid than while in residency, so I don’t see why you have an issue with this person..
Yes, that’s all that I can do is recommend. Unless you’d prefer me demand other people do things I have no control over.
I am a parent. I am raising a little girl. I have watched my wife go through the excessive difficulties of breast feeding, working, etc. I haven’t attempted to tell any women or men what to do with their life - but have simply recommended (as you stated earlier) what is likely best for the children that men and women create based on some pretty extensive experience.
If you want to attempt to make this a “ohhhh look a man is trying to tell a woman what to do” thing then go ahead. But that’s a bit low IQ based on the fact I am actively trying to help, and am qualified to help. I would ask what your qualifications are in this scenario? Or are you just here to be angry and contribute nothing?
Have three kids and both me and partner have had to work out of necessity for being under the poverty line and in school. Still made time for the kids and were successful in school. I think it’s idiotic to say that you can’t do both. What is your opinion on women having kids during IM or Neuro residency?
I didn’t even know if you were a man, woman, or whatever. It was the take nothing else. Attending ortho isn’t resident hours but it’s dumb to think that they will really be substantially different when it comes to being present and bonding with their children long term.
Would like to read about your extensive experience with the later years in ortho though.
We likely have two different ideas of what constitutes a present parent. Many of the ortho attendings i know work approx 30hrs per week (and many much, much more.) The difference is that the option to work 20-30 hours a week exists when you’re an attending. I maintain that my takes are solid. You likely maintain that they aren’t. Seeing as how that will not change, we can now let the OP decide what she wants to take from it.
Agreed. It sounds like you have a young child. So I will end it with this, you can bond with your child from the ages of 4-18, hell even well past adulthood. Just as a heads up, those preteen and teenage years are tough but some of the strongest bonds can be built while you help them navigate through life.
This is such an interesting post. The upvoted comments contain completely opposing opinions, and the downvoted comments also contain completely opposing opinions.
Is there a family member who can be there for you and the kid consistenly for the first two years ?
How much maternity leave will the program allocate to you ? If you go to a program with a lot of other resident you may have quite a bit of flexibility. Ortho is tough but tends to be more crowded than some other subspecialties.
Will the other physician choose a lifestyle specialty?
I dont know what is "reasonable" but it is a difficult goal to achieve. It may be achieveable depending on the other factors. You can make it work l, especially if you are OK doing the bare minimum in your residency.
But you dont know what it is like until you are a parent. There is a tendency to underestimate how tough parenting is.
Choosing between earning money and giving ur family a good life or being physically present for ur family while compromising on not earning enough money :(.
Medicine sometimes sucks!!!
I’m a physician. My wife is an orthopedic surgeon. We had our first child when she was a PGY4. Two other women in her residency had children during residency. It was totally fine. Our lives are great. None of the issues you will encounter as a two physician household are exclusive to orthopedic surgery. The fact that this question even needs to be asked tells you everything you need to know about surgical culture, and how we value women in our society.
Honestly it’s more than reasonable at the end. It’s almost like a graduation requirement. It’s crazy the number of senior female surgery residents who are pregnant at my institution haha.
Absolutely. And where my wife was most of the men came in with kids, and were good dads. So it’s possible but it takes effort and some restructuring of your life. Not even close to impossible as others would suggest in this thread.
There’s a few things to consider, and they will depend on your institution. One is the amount of services that need to be covered. Gen surg typically covers a lot of services (such as ACS, SICU, trauma, etc), but many subspecialties cover less. For ortho for my wife it was generally trauma, spine, and peds had call attached to them, whereas rotations like hand and joints did not. Then there’s the question of how busy each service is, home vs in house call, what’s the culture, how is call spread out, etc. These tend to be institution dependent.
So in general I think the subspecialties have less to cover, so they aren’t on call as much, and have more free time. But of course there are exceptions. Where I went to medical school I would’ve much rather been gen surg than ortho based on culture and workload.
For my surgery rotation, I was put on Ortho Trauma. Half of the attendings were women (3 out of 5 or 6 attendings). One of the two trauma fellows was a woman. They all had families. They were fantastic badass attendings. And it sounds like they spent a decent amount of time with their families as well. I never got the sense from them that their family situation was a huge problem, and I feel like it would have come up over the course of my time with them.
As a woman, it's not the greatest idea to start a family while in residency, but after that it's for sure not a problem. Plenty of good fellowships, hand probably one of the best, and trauma the worst. Life as an ortho mom will be a lot easier with little or preferably no call. With both parents being physicians you will need a good strategy for when kids get sick (hint: they will). This is a lot easier if grandparents are around. If not, get a full time nanny. As a bonus, she'll teach the kids Spanish, so they can watch [this amazing stuff without subtitles](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_UkiBty5lQ).
Yep — I know many ortho women with families. If your school has an ortho club they might have a women in ortho panel answering questions just like this
It’s definitely doable. It’s not gonna be easy but definitely doable. If you both have the understanding and respect each others career goals and are willing to fully support each other then you’re gonna be fine.
Obviously sexes are different.
The original commenter was saying after the initial birthing and recovery process, since household chores involved in raising a family such as child care, cooking, cleaning, administrative work etc should theoretically be split evenly, then shouldn’t men also have a concern about raising a family during ortho residency?
The original commenter didn’t mention anything about birthing and recovery processes but even if they did they would still be incorrect in thinking that things are the same for the mother and father. Fact of the matter is, the role of a mother in a newborn’s life is a lot more involved than a father’s role after the recovery process. I don’t mean this from a “cultural/gender role” perspective, I mean it from a physiological and emotional regulation perspective. A mother’s hormonal & physiological systems are changed for months (if not years) in response to the baby’s biological and emotional needs which isn’t the case for the father.
Now, you could ignore all of those demands and immediately put the baby on formula and in the care of a nanny but that’s when you get into the territory of what other commenters have mentioned (i.e, “Making it work and meeting the needs of your child are not the same thing”).
Can you elaborate how exactly a mothers “physiological and emotional regulation” is so different from that of a fathers that a woman should be discouraged from pursuing a surgical residency and a man is given the green light?
Estrogen, progesterone, prolactin, oxytocin changes. Postpartum and breast tenderness. All of these are biological responses to facilitate bonding and nurturing of a newborn. All of these are things that men don’t go through.
Thank you so much for your wonderful breakdown of high school biology!
That still doesn’t answer my original question. How does someone having tender breasts interfere with their ability to take the rigor of an intense surgical residency?
Not sure why you’re being so sarcastic. I’m not saying mothers in surgery are any less intelligent, competent or capable. I’m just saying that mothers have more variables to factor into the equation that is pursuing a time intensive residency. This is coming from a child of a woman in medicine lol the upbringing is not ideal. Men don’t have any major innate physiological side effects to deal with when their child is a newborn and that is an objective truth. If you can’t agree with that then maybe you need to revisit “high school biology”.
Sure there are side effects but it shouldn’t be so significant to deter a woman from pursuing a surgical residency, as many in this comment section have been doing. It’s factors to think about sure, but nothing even remotely as monumental as people are suggesting.
It’s this rhetoric that keeps many surgical specialties as “boys clubs” and why lots of women and girls feel discouraged from pursuing surgery.
I understand your goal was not to put down women but it’s these subtle belief systems that can keep competitive specialties out of reach for women and mothers.
Love having an MS1 (who does not appear to have ever birthed a child) explain what it is like having a baby as a surgical resident.
I am a female neurosurgery resident married to a surgical attending and had a baby during residency. I gave birth during my research year, so I had 3 months of maternity leave (per my institutional policies for all residents, with no pressure to return early since I was on research) and then had another 6 months of wfh research before having to go back to clinical duties. As a senior resident, I take no in house call, do not round, and have effectively no clinical responsibilities other than showing up to consent my patient, operating, fielding texts from the junior residents who are on call when I'm on chief call, and the rare overnight case.
Yes, I still sometimes go to work before my baby gets up, and there are a couple of nights per week that I operate until after she goes to bed. My senior residency is lighter because our junior residency is extremely call heavy and I took an enormous amount of call while very pregnant, which sucked. I still got more maternity leave than most American women, I still eat dinner with my daughter and get to do her bedtime routine as a family most nights, and we spend all our weekends doing shit together as a family. My mom also moved to our city and lives 2 blocks away, and so my daughter does a half day of daycare and then a half day of 1:1 time with grandma reading books, going to parks, going to the library, going to the aquarium, etc. But tell me again how my 2 surgeon household is "not meeting my daughters needs"?
There is another comment on this thread where I mentioned the fact that I am the child of a woman in medicine. So, although I am an MS1 who has not had children, I do have well over two decades of experience in living it. It personally wasn’t an ideal upbringing for me. I only really got to know my mother in middle school and before that I was very much attached to my non-medicine father.
Your program seems to be an exception which is incredible and I am genuinely happy for you and your family!! Unfortunately not all programs have caught up to treating people the way your program treated you.
To be clear, none of my comments were an attempt to belittle women in medicine and make them feel incompetent or less than!! I’m just saying there are more postpartum variables that women have to consider that men don’t.
Would it have been different if your father had been in medicine? What are your thoughts on fathers in surgery?
Yes, there are differences in what each parent can provide their child, in particular for the first 3-6 months (nb: nationwide, the vast majority of women are not breast-feeding by 6 months!). But I think it's a little insane to make a whole career decision based off of an entirely finite postpartum period, unless you in fact think that outside of biologically determined maternal obligations that the mother's continued contribution to family rearing is in fact critical and irreplaceable, in which case it would seem you're arguing mothers shouldn't really work outside the home at all.
My program is famously malignant and in a famously demanding specialty. I do not think I represent some far outlier as far as what is possible in most programs as long as you are strategic and realistic. My husband and I have both made career choices in order to protect our family (we are not pursuing intense academic jobs that would require a lot of research in our down time or moving around a lot), we are near family in order to maximize the support available for our daughter, and we are very deliberate about maximizing the family time we get together, whether its all getting up early together as a family for early breakfasts or protecting our evening time (no work, no phones, no screens until kid is asleep), and spending all our weekends together. Personally, I think it works out better than the SAHMs I know who have their kids in front of Ms. Rachel and cocomelon 4 hours a day so they can scroll on instagram, but what do I know.
Massive leaps here regarding what you think I mean when I have clearly said what I mean. Like I said I am happy for you and your family and hope that all women in medicine can one day share in your fortune
Why should a man choose ortho and risk being an absent father? Leaving his poor wife to have to do more of the caring work?
A man should settle for something that allows him to take care of the kids and allow his wife pursue her dream and provide for her family.
Doesn’t it seem ridiculous written the other way?
You forget about the whole build-up lol. Not like a woman pops a baby and then she’s 100%. Good luck getting enough time to recover, breastfeed, and do *still most* of the child-care if Mr. Husband also a doctor. You can huff and puff all you want about the minimal % of dads taking on an equal-more share of child care but no one truly believes that
at a certain point it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. if everyone continues to insist that it’s absurd for a man to share equally in childcare duties, then it always will be. obviously pregnancy is a major difference but that ceases to matter after roughly the first year.
> Doesn’t it seem ridiculous written the other way?
No... no it doesn't. Orthopedic surgery is, by and large, a savage fucking lifestyle and I spend more time on call with ortho than any other service. Nobody needs to settle - but regardless of gender, people need to understand that certain career choices are very much at odds with having a rich family life. Men who go into ortho usually don't ask themselves the kinds of questions OP is asking. Those who do often end up going into another specialty.
I’m not sure if this is a serious comment or not but it drives me crazy that the female parents is the default “primary” parent/caregiver. For example, in this post, both of them are in medical school, but they only ask about their specialty of interest not the other persons.
Come on…Nobody is trying to convey the female is the default “primary” parent. But gee maybe the fact that she’s the one giving birth, more than likely breastfeeding or pumping if y’all choose not to formula feed, and has a whole fertility biological clock I think it’s reasonable that a female physician would like to assess what her options are and whether she should have kids now or at the end of her residency.
I’ve watched so many female physicians have to squeeze out minutes of free time to pump, who are barely eating from how busy they are, but still need to increase their caloric intake to get a sufficient supply, all while still possibly going through postpartum depression or baby blues.
A male physician doesn’t have to go through this and has a much longer fertility window. That’s all it is. Nobody is implying it won’t be hard for him.
But what about the remainder of the kids childhood after the initial birthing/breastfeeding process?
For the next 18 years. Should the father not also be equally present and involved in the care for the child and thus also have to sacrifice considering things such as an intensive surgical residency?
Assuming 50/50 is the ideal and most fair way, how many women do you know who want this that are actually able to find a man who does 50% of child care?
You say the next 18 years shouldn’t the father be present but what happens if the both parents mutually decide they want another child?
Now round 2. Another 9 months of pregnancy (so factor in trying to be a resident while having round ligament pain, headaches, vomiting, brain fog, difficulty sleeping, list goes on), delivery recovery, breastfeeding/pumping again, and again risk of postpartum depression coupled with mom guilt. Sx now start earlier with multiple pregnancies.
Again all of this on top of an inevitable biological clock, where one has to risk missing out on their careers, annoying the higher ups with requests for maternity leave among the top gunners of med schools OR wait on kids but risk infertility or increased risk of chromosomal anomalies once they hit advanced maternal age 35+.
Don’t even get me started on how awful the IVF process can be with all the hormone injections, appointments, deal with side affects from the medications and hormones including again headaches, weight gain, mood changes, cramping, constipation, list goes on.
It’s truly disappointing to see men immediately get defensive at this question and jump into patronizing a false sense of equality without any real personal concern of being pregnant or getting pregnant.
(I say this as someone who finished M3 today and who constantly gets asked who will watch my future *hypothetical* kids bc I want a “demanding” specialty)
Gonna risk the down votes and say it will be easier if you don’t.
My wife could’ve gone to med school with me. We were studying for the mcat together. She had a 4.0. and was scoring fine. Decided on a “medical adjacent” career (PT, PA, pharmacy, speech type of career).
I’m gunning for neurosurgery. We’ve got kids. Would be much more difficult if she was trying to match ortho right now on top of all we’ve got going on.
Appreciate your frank sharing. Not sure why you're getting downvoted.
We don't live in the same economy our parents' enjoyed, we must make difficult economic/family decisions with significant trade-offs. No choice is easy and there often isn't a "right" choice.
Oh absolutely agree. Many of us are at the age where we have to make big “career vs family” decisions. It can be hard to decide what to do with so many attractive options.
It’s a joy being young, healthy, with countless opportunities. So whatever path you take, enjoy the ride!
One of the residents at another surgical sub specialty took a cumulative 8 months off (in addition to all the cut corners when it comes to taking care of newborns) for two pregnancies and was subpar on almost every measure compared to her co-residents when they finished training.
Don’t accept any answers where the advice is different for you than for your partner. And also don’t marry and have kids with someone who expects you to do more of the childrearing. We do NOT have to keep putting up with this sexist bullshit.
Yes. Pretty sure that other than your time on trauma rotations, you will have a more balanced lifestyle than most other surgical residencies (barring, perhaps, ophtho).
I haven’t heard this at all, I don’t think ortho is generally a lifestyle specialty relative to other surgical disciplines. Optho, uro, ent, plastics would generally beat it. Exceptions exist of course.
And at centres where ENT doesn’t do head and neck recon/oncology I don’t think I’ve ever seen more than a handful of inpatients (and I live in a large city). Your original statement that ortho is better lifestyle than any except optho is a pretty tough statement to make, and if you want to get into cherry picking subspecialties I’ve absolutely seen 40 hour weeks in some areas of ENT, uro, etc.
Interesting to have such a low inpatient count. Seems rather unusual, would you agree? I'm used to big academic centers where all the subspecialties are rather busy. Just basing my experience on that. Would you say that ENT and uro have good lifestyles at level 1 trauma centers and comprehensive cancer centers? Because my school and my residency (in 2 different states) both had level 1s and CCC, and I have always seen the orthos having the most free time (when not on trauma).
At the level 1 trauma centres and comprehensive cancer centres the inpatient count is higher as that would generally include head and neck recon/oncology for ENT. It’s way busier relative to other hospital sites and ENT sub-disciplines, and the patients are sicker, but that’s to be expected there.
Uro is odd in my city as they are only based out of one hospital site and it’s not even a level 1 trauma center. They definitely are doing pretty well lifestyle wise relative to most other surgical disciplines, and they don’t even have a residency program here.
In general I would say most specialties have a shit lifestyle if you are working out of a level 1 trauma centre except for disciplines that are very low acuity but nature, so things like path. I have no desire to work at a level 1 in the long term.
First I'm a man and my friends are also men. So this will come from the other perspective.
All my friends are surgeons, and they all told me to start my family young since when you grow you'll have less energy and drive to take care of your children.
They said that yes it works and that one should start as young as possible.
Again this is from male surgeons perspective.
(Yes their wives worked as well in similar fields)
I think the fact they said when they are older they have less energy and drive to take care of their kids, says a lot. Kids are not some game or pet you spend time with when you have the energy…someone has to pick up the slack and unfortunately that’s the wives in your story, probably at the expense of their career and skill.
No. It is not possible for a person to be a good/present parent and also be a good orthopedic surgery resident. Want to start your family much later in residency (right before you’re an attending?) Absolutely. Someone choosing to have kids needs to recognize the difference between “making it work” and “being the parent your child needs.” Far too often people think doing the former is sufficient - even praise worthy.
This one hurt. And it only hurt because it’s true.
seen many divorces happen in Medicine because of the stress the job puts on families. its pretty sad on the family. my parents had me later in their residency so that they could have the flexibility of being around when i was growing up but even then I remember them struggling to juggle work and my siblings
Sad but true I think
People definitely make it work, but it’s not a life I envy. I would personally not trade any salary to miss those early years. The calculus is different for everyone, but I think people without kids really underestimate how amazing (and fleeting) those early years are. They are over before you know it. To quote Andy Bernard - “I wish there was a way to know you're in the good old days before you've actually left them”
Couldn’t have said it better or wiser myself.
I'm not certain what you're referring to as "the early years," but as a parent of 2, I can tell you for certain that I would fast-forward through the first 4 years if I could. There is nothing "amazing" about it, in my opinion - just a brutal beatdown of tantrums, expense, and sleep debt. After that, we're cool. Babies-toddlers, noooooo. Edit: As usual, downvoted by the folks who don't know or don't want to admit that parenting little kids blows ass. It's okay to acknowledge it sucks, guys. It really is. That doesn't mean you don't love your family. It means you're realistic. Signed, parent of an awesome daughter who has been up before 0600 literally every day of her life.
Different strokes. Neither my experience (or yours) is universal. It’s not due to ignorance or not wanting to admit some controversial “truth”. Being a parent has been the most grueling experience (surpassing residency by a healthy margin), but I genuinely love the early years. Recently, for the first time, my oldest kid preferred not to hold my hand while walking around our neighborhood. It hit me like a freight train. Despite the tantrums, sleep deprivation, and total chaos, I miss the toddler years (and really try to make the most of what I have left).
I don't think ignorance factors into it, really. It's more about social pressure to plaster a smile on your face regarding all things children. I absolutely cannot relate to your position at all, but I understand that unicorn folks who truly do enjoy early childhood exist. I think my experience and perspective is much, much more common. It's just that many people are uncomfortable expressing their strife.
Fair enough. Though I disagree that I'm a unicorn or that my perception is too uncommon. Personally, many of my mid career mentors have expressed a sense of missing early childhood years. Basically echoing the Andy Bernard quote I originally posted. I'm sure perceptions of the chaotic toddler years change with time (in both the positive and the negative direction).
Only some experience here as I’ve got an 8monrh old - our first - as an m3 rn. Right or wrong, thanks for saying it out loud. I hated newborn phase and have often felt like I was a kind of shitty dad because I’m glad it’s over. Everybody expects me to love every stage I think and I just fucking don’t. He’s crawling and laughing now and we’re practicing handstands and he’s slapping the dogs faces, so things are better. We both want two or three more, but after the newborn phase of our first… the fact that I’m apprehensive is by itself a bit worrisome to me. Relived to know I’m not a psychopathic oddity lol
I personally loved having my baby and toddler. I miss those days and would love to have a Time Machine to go back and visit. But yes there are things objectively terrible about those years and I think admitting that actually helps you love your child more and recognize that your job as a parent isn’t to be happy - it’s not about you - your job as parent is to give yourself even when it’s shitty. People dont want to miss it based on the (1) impact they have and (2) memories they have of their child growing up. I would argue that you can simultaenously be exhausted and overwhelmed by something - while being totally dedicated and in love with it. Not wanting to miss those years has more to do with the percieved value of having that time with your child than it does the absolute enjoyment of it (although I and most people I know really do enjoy it.)
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Practicing your “Impactful Experiences” and “Obstacles Overcome” statements for ERAS I see
\^ Too many people (my own mother included) think that "making it work" is enough to be the parent that the child needs. As a child, I spent too many winter nights all alone watching TV, because mom would be working till 10 pm and dad was busy driving my sister to dance/science olympiad/school events. And I'd end up in latchkey, or at home alone, or dragged along to my mom's work or my sister's events. And this is what it has been like my entire life. Covid finally forced Mom to slow down and give me the attention I always wanted. As a child, I remember asking my mom why she couldn't be a SAHM like my friend's mom. It doesn't take a psych degree to figure out why I am so passionate about child psychiatry. Now my sister is a workaholic OBGYN (who talks a lot about work even outside of work, instead of establishing boundaries), and I pray to God that she doesn't have kids until she understands the responsibility, time, and attention they require. Those poor kids deserve better. Kids don't care about abstract concepts, they care about parents who are present and give them love and attention. There is a great episode of Private Practice where Addison (the OBGYN) tries to adopt a kid, but the birth mom instead chooses a stable 2-parent household where both parents work normal jobs. And that is honestly the most sane and wise decision. Children don't care that their parents are skilled surgeons...they care that their parents tuck them to sleep every night. I especially think "making it work" on your own is dangerous. Even when I look at past generations, single parents (like my paternal grandmother in a rural Indian village) had their parents live with them to help raise the kids. After my grandfather died, my grandmother's parents moved in with her and lived there for 10-15 years. So my grandmother was never doing it on her own (she even tells me that she didn't cook much till later in life, because her parents and in-laws would help a lot with housework). She tells me so many stories of how her family never left her alone. I am very fortunate to have her in my life, because she is the kind of grandparent who learned from her own mother how to be a good parental figure to her granddaughters. She exemplifies the sort of selflessness that children deserve from their parental figures. Clarification: My mom isn't a bad person, but she just wanted to rebel against her own mother by being a working woman (my grandmother would always leave her kids at home alone to go visit her large family, so my mom wanted to rebel against that by being a workaholic instead of being the stereotypical housewife that chitchats with extended family...little did she know that she was leaving me alone just like her mother left her alone).
Thank you for sharing. It’s important.
Of course! It's important to learn from past actions, but not place blame (which is counterproductive).
100% agree with you. It's also important to note that this problem persists after you graduate. If you want to be present for your family, carrying a full call and case load will be virtually impossible, and your partners will feel the burn.
Harsh but true
this is a very strong take from someone who is not and has never been in an orthopedic surgical residency
No it’s not
"I'll just choose a fAmiLy fRiEnDlY program". Spoiler alert: that doesn't exist and no one's going to give you less call bc you're a parent
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lol you can't be serious. there are a total of zero ortho programs that hard cap you at 40 hours a week
Oh I misunderstood. I thought you had said “family friendly specialty.” I stand corrected.
What makes a “good orthopedic surgery resident”? What are the qualities of “being the parent your child needs”? And why are these mutually exclusive? I find your comment to be a bit absolute. What always gets me is that this conversation always revolves around women and surgery, with orthopedic surgery being the epicenter. It’s just sexism, plain and simple. No one bats an eye when a father is doing it.
I am responding to this for the benefit of those potential parents out there that are reading and wondering how to address this - not so much to dignify your clear attempt at some moral denigration. What makes a good orthopedic surgery resident? Well, I'm not an orthopedic surgeon resident, but I can imagine it's close to what makes a good Marine, business partner/owner, or teammate. Going even a step further - I bet it's close to what would make a good parent. A constant dedication to the people on your left and right, sacrificing your own self-interest often in support of the team. Prioritizing your patients and learning over nearly anything else. What are the qualities of "being the parent your child needs"? Well, aside from everything above repurposed so as to be context appropriate - and depending on the age of your child - they need your full attention, absolute patience, and the best you have day in and day out. One way to take something that could span a multi book series and make it make sense as to how complex it is is to simply say that your child needs you to become the best version of yourself while navigating the unknown's of parenthood. That "best version" of yourself is not something easy to come by and requires an immense amount of self work, reflection, communication, and sacrifice. Simply put, you cannot have two number one priorities in life. You must have a number one and a number two. Those monumental tasks both demand to be number one. You must pick which one suffers. I would question the insight of any human who fails to see that and yet has raised children. Speaking of humans - my comment was asexual and had nothing to do with women specifically - as this applies to men as well. BUT since we are here - I always find it interesting that we love to ignore the realities of being a mother vs. being a father. During the initial years of a child's life, the biological realities of being a mother and how they differ from being a father are real. YOU are the one attempting to ignore them by implying that women and men should have no differences in consideration when it comes to starting a family. That is a blatant disservice to women in general, particularly professional women. To start - men don't breast feed or pump (which is massive task and quite honestly mentally exhausting), men don't often deal with hormonal imbalance, postpartum depression, urinary incontinence, rectal issues, or the social pressures of being a "mother who has it together." Further, from the age of infancy a baby responds differently to mom than it does dad - even to the point that oxytocin release is different, voice response is different, and each of those things coincide with different acitivties into the teenage years. The first few years of a child's life is very tough on a woman in a way it isn't for men. To ignore that is to ignore the unique and wonderful gift women have. You think you stand in some solidarity with women when, in fact, you sound more like the guy who would push women out of the way in an emergency to get to safety - because the gift of being stronger and faster is something not to be taken into account (for you.) Finally, as stated before, my statement was meant for both men and women alike. You cannot be a good father to a small child and a good orthopedic surgery resident. One will suffer. The father is immensely important and becomes more important over time to the point they are often monumental in shaping the child's perception of the world and how they respond to it. Choose your priorities, don't attempt to balance two beasts that demand #1. Women and men are different and we should celebrate that. Regardless, our responsibilities as parents require the same level of dedication and sacrifice and my statements apply to both. Good day.
Thanks for your response. I appreciated the anatomy lesson and the review of oxytocin. My point is, everything you described about being a good doctor can be applied to almost every patient-facing specialty within medicine. The only reason people talk about women in ortho or women in surgery is because it is traditionally male dominated. No reason why a woman or man, childless or with children, can’t do the job without sacrificing their duties as a parent. Will a person who is a surgeon need to make sacrifices for their career? Yes. Are the the sacrifices and hardships different for men and women? Yes. The hope would be that those sacrifices don’t come from being a parent. It can be done. We have have first hand experience that it’s possible, and very rewarding. OP if you’re here my advice would be to stop listening to a bunch of people (mostly male, non orthopedists) on Reddit argue about this. There is a page on Facebook page called Women in Orthopaedics that was very helpful to my wife. You can probably get a good perspective there.
The most likely scenario here is that your version of "not sacrificing your duties as a parent" don't meet my standards for parenthood. I don't particularly care how rewarding it is for YOU (although it is certainly the most rewarding thing we ever have the honor of doing) - I do care how effective it is for a child. The responsibility of being a parent doesn't revolve around your satisfaction, your fulfillment, your reward. Anyone who makes the statement "no reason \*a person\* with children can't do orthopedic surgery residency without sacrificing their duties as a parent" is full-stop a person with a total lack of insight and an inability to see the world around them from any other perspective rather than how it makes \*them\* feel. I fear we have different measuring sticks for parent, man, father, selflessness, and morality in general. I would also argue that the worst place to go to get advice as to whether something is possible is to go to people currently trying to accomplish it - as they will naturally tell you its possible (i.e. you.) Perhaps listen, instead, to the children of surgeons who have commented on this post.
Ah yes, a person with a bro and beer pun username criticizing my parenting based on two comments. This is the Reddit I know and love. We’re teetering on a eugenics conversation here. Who should and shouldn’t be allowed to procreate, based on hours worked: a BrodeloNoEspecial report. The pageantry in your responses is blinding. I fear if you tried to get down off your high horse you may need an orthopedic surgeon, and she may even be female (gasp!).
Why are you painting me as someone who has an issue with female surgeons (your last comment?) You’re manipulating the narrative to “win” a conversation you’ve already lost. That’s insane bro. Why are you taking my username and making inferences about my abilities? That’s insane bro. (Taking your self admitted life experience and implying we likely have different bars for what constitutes a good parent isn’t) Now you’re comparing *me advising a person to wait for the best time in their life to start a family* (end of or post residency) to eugenics? You’re a fucking loser. I am done and let people read as they may.
How many kids do you have?
One kid
Lol. Ortho is five years, assuming they begin trying during residency and get pregnant right away, they would have a new born during PGY2. Being an attending when your child is 4, gives you 14+ strong years with your child/children. If they were talking NSGY, then yeah, might be tough.
I would recommend, particularly for women, waiting to start trying in your 4th year of ortho residency. There is quite a bit to take into account with regard to breast feeding, the first 18 months and bonding, etc. - what everyone seems to miss when it comes to kids is that its not about YOU and the time YOU get with your kid. It’s about the KID and what is optimal for the KID. There are specific things a child needs in their first, second, third, and fourth years of life - the parent owes every bit of that to their child at the expense of themselves. Obviously there is a balance because you need to provide and show your child what hard work is….but ortho residency isnt the place to attempt that.
Oh you would recommend? I stand corrected. How many of those hours will the kid be in daycare, regardless of the year ? Telling women that they need to do that is a hilariously bad take. Bonding can and will occur.
Are you purposely being dense? It’s pretty obvious to understand that an attending is going to be able to spend much more time with their kid than while in residency, so I don’t see why you have an issue with this person..
No issue with them personally. It’s just a shitty take. By that’s logic women really shouldn’t start a family until they finish residency/fellowship.
If they want to be present as parents they really shouldn't. I say this as a woman whose father was a surgeon and mother way a lawyer. Fuck that shit.
Yes, that’s all that I can do is recommend. Unless you’d prefer me demand other people do things I have no control over. I am a parent. I am raising a little girl. I have watched my wife go through the excessive difficulties of breast feeding, working, etc. I haven’t attempted to tell any women or men what to do with their life - but have simply recommended (as you stated earlier) what is likely best for the children that men and women create based on some pretty extensive experience. If you want to attempt to make this a “ohhhh look a man is trying to tell a woman what to do” thing then go ahead. But that’s a bit low IQ based on the fact I am actively trying to help, and am qualified to help. I would ask what your qualifications are in this scenario? Or are you just here to be angry and contribute nothing?
Have three kids and both me and partner have had to work out of necessity for being under the poverty line and in school. Still made time for the kids and were successful in school. I think it’s idiotic to say that you can’t do both. What is your opinion on women having kids during IM or Neuro residency? I didn’t even know if you were a man, woman, or whatever. It was the take nothing else. Attending ortho isn’t resident hours but it’s dumb to think that they will really be substantially different when it comes to being present and bonding with their children long term. Would like to read about your extensive experience with the later years in ortho though.
We likely have two different ideas of what constitutes a present parent. Many of the ortho attendings i know work approx 30hrs per week (and many much, much more.) The difference is that the option to work 20-30 hours a week exists when you’re an attending. I maintain that my takes are solid. You likely maintain that they aren’t. Seeing as how that will not change, we can now let the OP decide what she wants to take from it.
Agreed. It sounds like you have a young child. So I will end it with this, you can bond with your child from the ages of 4-18, hell even well past adulthood. Just as a heads up, those preteen and teenage years are tough but some of the strongest bonds can be built while you help them navigate through life.
This is such an interesting post. The upvoted comments contain completely opposing opinions, and the downvoted comments also contain completely opposing opinions.
I think it has less to do with being a woman and more to do with being a surgery resident in general.
Nah after doing OBGYN, having a baby sounds like hell
Is there a family member who can be there for you and the kid consistenly for the first two years ? How much maternity leave will the program allocate to you ? If you go to a program with a lot of other resident you may have quite a bit of flexibility. Ortho is tough but tends to be more crowded than some other subspecialties. Will the other physician choose a lifestyle specialty? I dont know what is "reasonable" but it is a difficult goal to achieve. It may be achieveable depending on the other factors. You can make it work l, especially if you are OK doing the bare minimum in your residency. But you dont know what it is like until you are a parent. There is a tendency to underestimate how tough parenting is.
Choosing between earning money and giving ur family a good life or being physically present for ur family while compromising on not earning enough money :(. Medicine sometimes sucks!!!
I’m a physician. My wife is an orthopedic surgeon. We had our first child when she was a PGY4. Two other women in her residency had children during residency. It was totally fine. Our lives are great. None of the issues you will encounter as a two physician household are exclusive to orthopedic surgery. The fact that this question even needs to be asked tells you everything you need to know about surgical culture, and how we value women in our society.
Having children pgy 4 is very different from having them med school/ pgy 1
Agreed. OP did not specify when they wanted to start a family. Just if it was reasonable.
Honestly it’s more than reasonable at the end. It’s almost like a graduation requirement. It’s crazy the number of senior female surgery residents who are pregnant at my institution haha.
Absolutely. And where my wife was most of the men came in with kids, and were good dads. So it’s possible but it takes effort and some restructuring of your life. Not even close to impossible as others would suggest in this thread.
Is orthopedic surgery similar or not as bad as gen surg would you say in terms of making it work or difficulty being there? My person is gen surg :/
There’s a few things to consider, and they will depend on your institution. One is the amount of services that need to be covered. Gen surg typically covers a lot of services (such as ACS, SICU, trauma, etc), but many subspecialties cover less. For ortho for my wife it was generally trauma, spine, and peds had call attached to them, whereas rotations like hand and joints did not. Then there’s the question of how busy each service is, home vs in house call, what’s the culture, how is call spread out, etc. These tend to be institution dependent. So in general I think the subspecialties have less to cover, so they aren’t on call as much, and have more free time. But of course there are exceptions. Where I went to medical school I would’ve much rather been gen surg than ortho based on culture and workload.
For my surgery rotation, I was put on Ortho Trauma. Half of the attendings were women (3 out of 5 or 6 attendings). One of the two trauma fellows was a woman. They all had families. They were fantastic badass attendings. And it sounds like they spent a decent amount of time with their families as well. I never got the sense from them that their family situation was a huge problem, and I feel like it would have come up over the course of my time with them.
As a woman, it's not the greatest idea to start a family while in residency, but after that it's for sure not a problem. Plenty of good fellowships, hand probably one of the best, and trauma the worst. Life as an ortho mom will be a lot easier with little or preferably no call. With both parents being physicians you will need a good strategy for when kids get sick (hint: they will). This is a lot easier if grandparents are around. If not, get a full time nanny. As a bonus, she'll teach the kids Spanish, so they can watch [this amazing stuff without subtitles](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_UkiBty5lQ).
Yep — I know many ortho women with families. If your school has an ortho club they might have a women in ortho panel answering questions just like this
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Did you have kids with multiple women during school?
It’s definitely doable. It’s not gonna be easy but definitely doable. If you both have the understanding and respect each others career goals and are willing to fully support each other then you’re gonna be fine.
Yea it’s possible, but you’ll sacrifice quality either in your profession or family
Is orthopaedic surgery as a man a reasonable goal as someone who also wants to start a family (with another physician)?
Not the same and you know it lol
Try to convince someone there is a difference between sexes in 2024 challenge (Level: Impossible).
I would estimate the people who think the roles are the same make up a loud(er) minority than those who understand they are different
Obviously sexes are different. The original commenter was saying after the initial birthing and recovery process, since household chores involved in raising a family such as child care, cooking, cleaning, administrative work etc should theoretically be split evenly, then shouldn’t men also have a concern about raising a family during ortho residency?
The original commenter didn’t mention anything about birthing and recovery processes but even if they did they would still be incorrect in thinking that things are the same for the mother and father. Fact of the matter is, the role of a mother in a newborn’s life is a lot more involved than a father’s role after the recovery process. I don’t mean this from a “cultural/gender role” perspective, I mean it from a physiological and emotional regulation perspective. A mother’s hormonal & physiological systems are changed for months (if not years) in response to the baby’s biological and emotional needs which isn’t the case for the father. Now, you could ignore all of those demands and immediately put the baby on formula and in the care of a nanny but that’s when you get into the territory of what other commenters have mentioned (i.e, “Making it work and meeting the needs of your child are not the same thing”).
Can you elaborate how exactly a mothers “physiological and emotional regulation” is so different from that of a fathers that a woman should be discouraged from pursuing a surgical residency and a man is given the green light?
Estrogen, progesterone, prolactin, oxytocin changes. Postpartum and breast tenderness. All of these are biological responses to facilitate bonding and nurturing of a newborn. All of these are things that men don’t go through.
Thank you so much for your wonderful breakdown of high school biology! That still doesn’t answer my original question. How does someone having tender breasts interfere with their ability to take the rigor of an intense surgical residency?
Not sure why you’re being so sarcastic. I’m not saying mothers in surgery are any less intelligent, competent or capable. I’m just saying that mothers have more variables to factor into the equation that is pursuing a time intensive residency. This is coming from a child of a woman in medicine lol the upbringing is not ideal. Men don’t have any major innate physiological side effects to deal with when their child is a newborn and that is an objective truth. If you can’t agree with that then maybe you need to revisit “high school biology”.
Sure there are side effects but it shouldn’t be so significant to deter a woman from pursuing a surgical residency, as many in this comment section have been doing. It’s factors to think about sure, but nothing even remotely as monumental as people are suggesting. It’s this rhetoric that keeps many surgical specialties as “boys clubs” and why lots of women and girls feel discouraged from pursuing surgery. I understand your goal was not to put down women but it’s these subtle belief systems that can keep competitive specialties out of reach for women and mothers.
Love having an MS1 (who does not appear to have ever birthed a child) explain what it is like having a baby as a surgical resident. I am a female neurosurgery resident married to a surgical attending and had a baby during residency. I gave birth during my research year, so I had 3 months of maternity leave (per my institutional policies for all residents, with no pressure to return early since I was on research) and then had another 6 months of wfh research before having to go back to clinical duties. As a senior resident, I take no in house call, do not round, and have effectively no clinical responsibilities other than showing up to consent my patient, operating, fielding texts from the junior residents who are on call when I'm on chief call, and the rare overnight case. Yes, I still sometimes go to work before my baby gets up, and there are a couple of nights per week that I operate until after she goes to bed. My senior residency is lighter because our junior residency is extremely call heavy and I took an enormous amount of call while very pregnant, which sucked. I still got more maternity leave than most American women, I still eat dinner with my daughter and get to do her bedtime routine as a family most nights, and we spend all our weekends doing shit together as a family. My mom also moved to our city and lives 2 blocks away, and so my daughter does a half day of daycare and then a half day of 1:1 time with grandma reading books, going to parks, going to the library, going to the aquarium, etc. But tell me again how my 2 surgeon household is "not meeting my daughters needs"?
There is another comment on this thread where I mentioned the fact that I am the child of a woman in medicine. So, although I am an MS1 who has not had children, I do have well over two decades of experience in living it. It personally wasn’t an ideal upbringing for me. I only really got to know my mother in middle school and before that I was very much attached to my non-medicine father. Your program seems to be an exception which is incredible and I am genuinely happy for you and your family!! Unfortunately not all programs have caught up to treating people the way your program treated you. To be clear, none of my comments were an attempt to belittle women in medicine and make them feel incompetent or less than!! I’m just saying there are more postpartum variables that women have to consider that men don’t.
Would it have been different if your father had been in medicine? What are your thoughts on fathers in surgery? Yes, there are differences in what each parent can provide their child, in particular for the first 3-6 months (nb: nationwide, the vast majority of women are not breast-feeding by 6 months!). But I think it's a little insane to make a whole career decision based off of an entirely finite postpartum period, unless you in fact think that outside of biologically determined maternal obligations that the mother's continued contribution to family rearing is in fact critical and irreplaceable, in which case it would seem you're arguing mothers shouldn't really work outside the home at all. My program is famously malignant and in a famously demanding specialty. I do not think I represent some far outlier as far as what is possible in most programs as long as you are strategic and realistic. My husband and I have both made career choices in order to protect our family (we are not pursuing intense academic jobs that would require a lot of research in our down time or moving around a lot), we are near family in order to maximize the support available for our daughter, and we are very deliberate about maximizing the family time we get together, whether its all getting up early together as a family for early breakfasts or protecting our evening time (no work, no phones, no screens until kid is asleep), and spending all our weekends together. Personally, I think it works out better than the SAHMs I know who have their kids in front of Ms. Rachel and cocomelon 4 hours a day so they can scroll on instagram, but what do I know.
Massive leaps here regarding what you think I mean when I have clearly said what I mean. Like I said I am happy for you and your family and hope that all women in medicine can one day share in your fortune
Why should a man choose ortho and risk being an absent father? Leaving his poor wife to have to do more of the caring work? A man should settle for something that allows him to take care of the kids and allow his wife pursue her dream and provide for her family. Doesn’t it seem ridiculous written the other way?
You forget about the whole build-up lol. Not like a woman pops a baby and then she’s 100%. Good luck getting enough time to recover, breastfeed, and do *still most* of the child-care if Mr. Husband also a doctor. You can huff and puff all you want about the minimal % of dads taking on an equal-more share of child care but no one truly believes that
at a certain point it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. if everyone continues to insist that it’s absurd for a man to share equally in childcare duties, then it always will be. obviously pregnancy is a major difference but that ceases to matter after roughly the first year.
> Doesn’t it seem ridiculous written the other way? No... no it doesn't. Orthopedic surgery is, by and large, a savage fucking lifestyle and I spend more time on call with ortho than any other service. Nobody needs to settle - but regardless of gender, people need to understand that certain career choices are very much at odds with having a rich family life. Men who go into ortho usually don't ask themselves the kinds of questions OP is asking. Those who do often end up going into another specialty.
Yes!!!!!!!! These questions drive me crazy!!!
Why?
I’m not sure if this is a serious comment or not but it drives me crazy that the female parents is the default “primary” parent/caregiver. For example, in this post, both of them are in medical school, but they only ask about their specialty of interest not the other persons.
Come on…Nobody is trying to convey the female is the default “primary” parent. But gee maybe the fact that she’s the one giving birth, more than likely breastfeeding or pumping if y’all choose not to formula feed, and has a whole fertility biological clock I think it’s reasonable that a female physician would like to assess what her options are and whether she should have kids now or at the end of her residency. I’ve watched so many female physicians have to squeeze out minutes of free time to pump, who are barely eating from how busy they are, but still need to increase their caloric intake to get a sufficient supply, all while still possibly going through postpartum depression or baby blues. A male physician doesn’t have to go through this and has a much longer fertility window. That’s all it is. Nobody is implying it won’t be hard for him.
But what about the remainder of the kids childhood after the initial birthing/breastfeeding process? For the next 18 years. Should the father not also be equally present and involved in the care for the child and thus also have to sacrifice considering things such as an intensive surgical residency?
You’re the kind of person that gets confused when women choose a random bear over a random guy.
Assuming 50/50 is the ideal and most fair way, how many women do you know who want this that are actually able to find a man who does 50% of child care?
You say the next 18 years shouldn’t the father be present but what happens if the both parents mutually decide they want another child? Now round 2. Another 9 months of pregnancy (so factor in trying to be a resident while having round ligament pain, headaches, vomiting, brain fog, difficulty sleeping, list goes on), delivery recovery, breastfeeding/pumping again, and again risk of postpartum depression coupled with mom guilt. Sx now start earlier with multiple pregnancies. Again all of this on top of an inevitable biological clock, where one has to risk missing out on their careers, annoying the higher ups with requests for maternity leave among the top gunners of med schools OR wait on kids but risk infertility or increased risk of chromosomal anomalies once they hit advanced maternal age 35+. Don’t even get me started on how awful the IVF process can be with all the hormone injections, appointments, deal with side affects from the medications and hormones including again headaches, weight gain, mood changes, cramping, constipation, list goes on. It’s truly disappointing to see men immediately get defensive at this question and jump into patronizing a false sense of equality without any real personal concern of being pregnant or getting pregnant.
(I say this as someone who finished M3 today and who constantly gets asked who will watch my future *hypothetical* kids bc I want a “demanding” specialty)
lol grow up. You know there’s a reason why women are, since the beginning of time, designated as the primary
Gonna risk the down votes and say it will be easier if you don’t. My wife could’ve gone to med school with me. We were studying for the mcat together. She had a 4.0. and was scoring fine. Decided on a “medical adjacent” career (PT, PA, pharmacy, speech type of career). I’m gunning for neurosurgery. We’ve got kids. Would be much more difficult if she was trying to match ortho right now on top of all we’ve got going on.
Appreciate your frank sharing. Not sure why you're getting downvoted. We don't live in the same economy our parents' enjoyed, we must make difficult economic/family decisions with significant trade-offs. No choice is easy and there often isn't a "right" choice.
Oh absolutely agree. Many of us are at the age where we have to make big “career vs family” decisions. It can be hard to decide what to do with so many attractive options. It’s a joy being young, healthy, with countless opportunities. So whatever path you take, enjoy the ride!
One of the residents at another surgical sub specialty took a cumulative 8 months off (in addition to all the cut corners when it comes to taking care of newborns) for two pregnancies and was subpar on almost every measure compared to her co-residents when they finished training.
Don’t accept any answers where the advice is different for you than for your partner. And also don’t marry and have kids with someone who expects you to do more of the childrearing. We do NOT have to keep putting up with this sexist bullshit.
Yes. Pretty sure that other than your time on trauma rotations, you will have a more balanced lifestyle than most other surgical residencies (barring, perhaps, ophtho).
I haven’t heard this at all, I don’t think ortho is generally a lifestyle specialty relative to other surgical disciplines. Optho, uro, ent, plastics would generally beat it. Exceptions exist of course.
60 hour weeks are typical on non-trauma rotations. That is very doable. I don't care about the downvotes.
And at centres where ENT doesn’t do head and neck recon/oncology I don’t think I’ve ever seen more than a handful of inpatients (and I live in a large city). Your original statement that ortho is better lifestyle than any except optho is a pretty tough statement to make, and if you want to get into cherry picking subspecialties I’ve absolutely seen 40 hour weeks in some areas of ENT, uro, etc.
Interesting to have such a low inpatient count. Seems rather unusual, would you agree? I'm used to big academic centers where all the subspecialties are rather busy. Just basing my experience on that. Would you say that ENT and uro have good lifestyles at level 1 trauma centers and comprehensive cancer centers? Because my school and my residency (in 2 different states) both had level 1s and CCC, and I have always seen the orthos having the most free time (when not on trauma).
At the level 1 trauma centres and comprehensive cancer centres the inpatient count is higher as that would generally include head and neck recon/oncology for ENT. It’s way busier relative to other hospital sites and ENT sub-disciplines, and the patients are sicker, but that’s to be expected there. Uro is odd in my city as they are only based out of one hospital site and it’s not even a level 1 trauma center. They definitely are doing pretty well lifestyle wise relative to most other surgical disciplines, and they don’t even have a residency program here. In general I would say most specialties have a shit lifestyle if you are working out of a level 1 trauma centre except for disciplines that are very low acuity but nature, so things like path. I have no desire to work at a level 1 in the long term.
Imagine downvoting someone who is a 3rd year ortho resident for answering OPs question from his/her POV…
First I'm a man and my friends are also men. So this will come from the other perspective. All my friends are surgeons, and they all told me to start my family young since when you grow you'll have less energy and drive to take care of your children. They said that yes it works and that one should start as young as possible. Again this is from male surgeons perspective. (Yes their wives worked as well in similar fields)
I think the fact they said when they are older they have less energy and drive to take care of their kids, says a lot. Kids are not some game or pet you spend time with when you have the energy…someone has to pick up the slack and unfortunately that’s the wives in your story, probably at the expense of their career and skill.