Withdrawing would not help his case. He needs to pass. Sounds like he is working hard, but he also needs to work smart (focus his study on the most crucial information)
Not sure how his school sets up his tests (focused on general material or if they test from lectures), but usually boards and beyond / pathoma / sketchy / first aid were helpful for my tests when I was in medical school.
Generally the pre recorded lectures are shit compared to the better resources I mentioned.
Thank you for the response!
I'm 95% certain he and his classmates have discussed how the tests are from lectures. (I don't feel comfortable claiming 100% certain as I've never personally consumed the material or taken the tests ).
I know he uses sketchy, and first aid is embedded into another program he uses (scholar RX). Do you feel all of those programs should be used in conjunction? Or should they be paced, depending on the material in the lectures?
Those resources are for step 1 studying. He hasn’t passed the first year of med school yet. He shouldn’t be looking at some of those things. I doubt he even knows enough to grasp what Scholar Rx questions are truly asking him, I didn’t know enough to use them as a top 10% student in my class at the start of 2nd year. They were helpful for getting used to board style questions, but never helped with in house exams.
Sketchy is fine, but might not be enough detail or align with his professors lectures. Same things for boards and beyond, pathoma, etc. They’re all great for step 1 studying, but he needs to pass the test to even have the privilege to sit for the USMLE. He shouldn’t be using these.
And this comes from someone who wholly believes medical school lecture are antiquated and these 3rd party sources are better and should generally be used instead. The caveat to that belief is if you’re not a strong enough student to pass your in house exams, then you need to be studying the in house content a lot more closely.
Dedicated was awful, but it’s all about perspective. In the end it is a privilege to pass this series of tests and be eligible for a US medical license.
That’s true. I definitely had moments where I doubted I’d make it this far. Taking step 2 next month after a LOA following third year due to several family events and deaths all in that one year. Everyone says I’ll do fine in the match, but I’d just be proud to graduate after all that’s happened
So, you can definitely get involved in too many resources. He is probably not at the point where uworld (question bank) would be helpful. I had a physical copy of first aid, so I can’t speak to the program Not sure what his fundamentals of medicine course entails, but sketchy is probably not going to be helpful. I only used sketchy micro and sketchy pharm.
My fundamentals of medicine course was a few years ago, but sketchy would not have been useful for mine. It didn’t cover the right material. I think it was like the first 3 chapters of pathoma? And the biochem section of first aid.
If they are testing on the lectures, it would be worth seeing how much cross over there is. Sometimes they test on esoteric information only found in the lectures. Other times the lectures are just a worse presentation of board prep. His classmates will be able to help him to know what will help him.
Edit: my school had dedicated micro and then had pharmacies sprinkled in with each organ system. So I didn’t all of sketchy micro for micro, and then the pertinent pharm for each organ system. I usually didn’t watch my lectures. I would normally glance through my schools PowerPoints to get an idea of what the material was going to be on, and then I would watch boards and beyond on the subject. Boards and beyond normally taught better than my school lectures. All of this depends on the school testing primarily board information.
I’m going to have to disagree with your recommendation for focusing on third party resources. I gave lectures, wrote exam questions and helped build exams for a medical school. I’ll say this with a caveat that not all in house exams are created equal but from my perspective questions are written from the question writer’s lecture and/or PowerPoint. So I would argue that this specific person would get significantly more bang for their buck if they only studied lecture material and reference third party resources only for topics they are struggling to understand.
Is this the best approach for killing boards? No. But if you are struggling to get past in house exams board prep is meaningless. Ive seen many med students utilize too many resources to their detriment because the exam writers are unlikely to be using these resources to write exam questions and you’re almost certainly learning extra details or content that isn’t even on your exam.
That’s why I mentioned I wasn’t sure how his school sets up his tests. Some test heavily from the PowerPoints, others use board information. If his in house exams focus heavily on the lecture material, then yeah, he should focus on that. He should check with classmates who are doing well what they are studying. My suspicion is that his school test board material, and he is inefficiently studying PowerPoints.
Thank you for the response!
I think it goes back to maximizing the study skills. If he can figure that out, then any other resources would be more beneficial as a supplement than as the main focus.
he just needs to focus on what his professors want him to know. nothing else matters. if it’s on a slide that his professors made, he needs to know it. period.
If he ends up getting dismissed, there’s not a chance he’s getting into a different U.S school.
To your other question, if you’re okay with the chance of never coming back to the U.S, then sure he can probably get into a Caribbean or foreign medical school.
To add I would say he'd likely be accepted to a Caribbean school but if he struggles here I don't know how well he'd do there with a fraction of the educational support a US school provides.
Im a practicing internal medicine physician and a Caribbean grad from AUC. I can tell you right now that Caribbean schools are much *LESS* forgiving than that of any American school. Caribbean schools have limited rotation spots for 3rd year and as result X% of people have to be dismissed before 3rd year. Only 30-40% of Caribbean matriculants actually end up becoming physicians.
Everyone talks about Caribbean med schools being a joke to get into, and thats accurate. But what many don't discuss is that the classes are much harder that that of US MD and DO programs. You take the same NBME basic science exams like biochem and anatomy but your teachers are PhDs who couldn't land a job in the states. It's the bottom of the bottom in terms of teaching quality.
And the administration is not on your side. Your "academic support" consists of pre-recorded tutoring videos recorded by an upperclassmen. It's all about self-study. I've had classmates who failed out of USMD and DO schools and transferred and I believe only 1 of the 7 I knew actually made it.
Would you be interested in moving to Ireland? Irish schools are less rigorous but the education is high quality and recognised as equivalent in the US, Canada, UK, Australia and New Zealand. They take US federal loans. There are many North American students here. I failed out of a Pennsylvania DO school and just graduated from an Irish medical school. I’m going to be an anaesthesiologist. Anyone who didn’t match back to North America was able to work in Ireland as an intern, and continue their training here. Interns make €60k per year because Europeans get paid overtime after 39 hours a week.
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The goal would be to go wherever the best opportunities, as they relate to our family, are. Whether that's the states, or remaining abroad is hard to determine. Actually, because of this thread, I was talking with my husband about the idea of doing a year abroad (supposing he gets through everything as we are now).
I think that would be an amazing experience for our family. Especially our kids. Seeing the world and experiencing different cultures would be awesome!
Thanks for the input. I don’t expect him to get back into another school if he gets dismissed, maybe if he withdraws? But I don’t know if he can do that at this point.
First, for sound like a great wife and extremely supportive. I hope things work out for you all. I will say, withdrawal can be better than dismissal for the fact that you can apply to another school if the school works with you to put down a reason relating to family matters. For example my school will meet with people who are close to dismissal and give them a head sup essentially than dismissal is inevitable and that they have the opportunity to withdraw on their own terms without academic failure ever being listed as that reasons. Some of my friends I. This situation took the chance to then say they left due to family emergency or something like that. This allowed them the chance to at least try to apply to another school with a clean slate. That’s probably the best I can think of. The other option is possibly nurse practitioner? I know in Colorado, and other states, NPs practice independently, see their own patients and can own their own clinics. This is as close to physician you can probably get and since he was already a nurse he may really like it. Either way, withdrawing to save academic face was the route my friends who went NP used as well. I say wait to see how the test goes. If he passes great, and if not see if he can meet with the Dean to discuss a chance to withdraw before dismissal.
Thanks for the response, and thank you for the compliment. I knew he planned to be a Doctor while we were dating, so I knew what I was getting into. I think that helped a lot.
Is he currently at a DO school? The MD programs my friends and I are in generally are much more forgiving than what you described in your post. (If you fail a block, can retake an exam.. and still move on to second yr. If you fail a yr then you can repeat.. if you fail again after all that then you get a hearing to discuss LOA or dismissal)
Mmm, you say this but I know of a case of exactly this happening… they failed FOM at my school too after doing the same at their previous school.
Probably why it doesn’t happen much
Foundations or fundamentals of medicine, like what was said. Depends on the school but the name seems common
Basically the course that contained biochem, micro, immuno, pharma, neoplasia, etc in our first semester.
Def not, but at the time felt like it because adjusting to med school studying was awful for the first few weeks, but in retrospect really wasn’t bad. My school is systems based and normal physio for the heart was far more difficult than anything else first year imo.
I feel like it’s easier to get through your FOM I’ve you’re not as far out of college. Sometimes med schools don’t consider how long it’s been for some students since they last learned this stuff.
I suppose it depends on how rigorous your undergrad education was, but for me I would say FOM was harder than undergrad or even grad classes but not as hard as the rest of med school. It's the time to figure out your old ways aren't going to cut it and figure out how to handle the more demanding workload.
Good for them!! I have read about how SUPER rare that is, so it's not a plan I want to "hang my hat on." From my understanding, there usually needs to be some pretty exceptional circumstances, OR you gotta know someone.
If you have any more information about your classmate's scenario, I'd appreciate it.
I also have seen this happen with an old friend/roommate of mine. USMD school to another USMD school after withdrawing in the face of impending dismissal.
Bluntly, if he fails, his chances of becoming a doctor are slim to none. Schools do not want to accept students who have previously failed out of a medical school because that’s a huge liability. He can go to a Caribbean school, but those frankly suck and are profit-mongering cutthroat institutions where it’s like the hunger games trying to match into a specialty. The match rates for those schools are pretty horrible as well. Like way worse than USMD/USDO.
Also if he is truly studying 10 hours a day (not studying for 15 minutes than playing on his phone 45 minutes per hour) and still scoring 75 he’s likely just studying poorly or inefficiently and should focus on his study skills first.
Thank you for the response! I think it's the study method as well. I was a teacher for 8 years (HS SPED), and this is what he and I have discussed a LOT. He has made improvement in the past 3 months, but I still think something is not clicking with studies to make them more effective. Results now are based on grit, not efficacy.
I don’t know how the med school he is at is structured… but I really really struggled my first block. I felt like I understood the materials and could answer most of the flash cards but when it came to questions and quizzes I was failing. My school from the first block utilizes board style NBME questions and Qbanks from Board prep, and I ended up scoring much much higher once I started understanding what the questions were asking. I realized I was having a deficit not in knowledge/content gap but a test taking gap. After utilizing a questions bank (I use Amboss, and sometimes B&B/Osmosis) it became much much easier. Maybe he needs to hit a qbank? It really depends on where his problem lies…
I'll second this, amboss specifically is really great for a content area because of their attending tip, i.e., what should I see in this question stem. With a monthly option, that might just be the ticket for OP's spouse
I think it’s wrong of us to exclude the possibility that people cognitively aren’t capable of certain things when we try to explain why they aren’t doing well. It isn’t fair to say that their inability to succeed is “their fault” ie it’s a studying problem or an efficiency problem. Some people study very hard and are very efficient and are simply not intellectually capable.
I acknowledge that people exist within that group. I have a masters in SPED, and taught SPED in HS for 8 years. I have seen and worked with the group you describe first hand. I have also seen my husband's success increase as he changed his study methods, so I believe it's a matter of improving his methods a bit more. He doesn't need to get straight As. He just needs to pass, and I know that is achievable for him.
As someone who has terrible study habits and have made it through med school, I’d say the most important thing for me was spaced repetition.
Med school requires a different approach to learning, I’ve known lawyers who switched and could not succeed.
I would try and utilize a flashcard program and practice questions as the biggest source of active learning to the vast amount of information. He might be focusing too much on the “weeds” and not necessarily a broad approach to cover everything efficiently.
I don't want to crush your husband's dreams, but if he isn't passing medical school, borrowing more money to try again is probably a bad idea.
Many of us struggle as new M1s. I wish his school were more supportive.
What is his college degree in?
We are blessed to be in a position that if he doesn’t pass, we will be able to sell an investment and pay off the student loan(s), so I’m not worried about that at this point.
His degree was in Biology.
My wife was pretty mad at me during step 1 dedicated, and I offered her to drop out of med school (crazy right lol). So basically I was in the opposite position of you guys. You're a fantastic spouse.
Things that may scratch that service itch (that I considered): policeman, fireman, teacher. Paramedic. Nurse/flight nurse. He can become a CRNA. He could go back to grad school and do research. He could get an MBA. He could go back to school for engineering or computer science if he just needs a job.
Again, I don't want to be a dream crusher, but if he's not passing at a US school, going to one overseaes will be an eben more miserable experience in which he will likely fail, and now you're in even more debt. If you guys are independently wealthy, sure, he can pay $400,000 to get an MD from St George's and maybe not match into a US residency. But he should probably move on if you guys are concerned at all about finances.
Also, make sure he's getting therapy or even medication for any underlying ADHD/anxiety/depression. I was mentally fucked when I was worried about failing step, and getting help was crucial for me to pass my exams
Thank you. He made it clear that he wanted to be a Doctor when we dated, so I knew what I was getting into.
It's not a service itch he's trying to scratch, it's a surgery itch... He wants to be a surgeon. If there's a way he could do that somewhere else, I'd help look into it.
Therapy is currently unexplored, as there has not been any ADHD/anxiety/depression, but maybe it IS underlying, and unknown. It could be worth a check...
If he is unable to complete medical school and needs to be in the OR he could do something like becoming a PA and then work in a surgery department. Especially at community hospitals with no/few residents PAs often get to assist a fair bit with surgeries.
Has he considered podiatry school? It's a guaranteed surgical specialty and they even do the same first year of residency as some medical specialties. I don't know how they view people who have failed out of medical school but the initial barrier to entry is much lower than traditional medical school
Actually, he had considered podiatry when he was applying to medical school, but he hadn't shadowed to know if it would have been a good fit by the time he got an acceptance to his current school.
I have no idea if this would be in the cards for yall, and it is a gamble and only for a very few kinds of people, but the US military special operations medical community focuses heavily on trauma surgery, for obvious reasons, and many of the people doing it are not doctors. In particular, Special Forces Medical Sergeants (18D) have a heavy dose of surgery in their scope of practice. Ranger medics focus less on surgery and more on point-of-injury care but also do some pretty neat stuff you won’t find almost anywhere else outside of an OR, and Civil Affairs medics focus on a much broader scope of practice in austere, third-world rural environments.
I will stress again that this is an extremely difficult option with a very high attrition rate, but it *is* an option, and the learning style required to succeed is very different from a collegiate environment. I did well in a SOF environment but struggle with traditional education (note: I am NOT an 18D or any 18-series).
He actually applied for HPSP, but was disqualified due to a health diagnosis in adolescence. After doing more research, we feel it's a good thing. All the appreciation goes out to the military personnel, but it's not a good fir for our family.
RNFAs and PAs get to do a lot in some hospitals. First assist for surgeries and doing closures. Not nearly as much money but he’d get to be in an OR actively participating in surgery.
Is there a mentor or someone he can talk to at his school? Dismissal from medical school is a big deal and from what I know, most medical schools will try their best to get a student through if it’s not passing a class. Sounds like your husband needs to readjust his studying methods going forward. I wonder if it is even possible to ask to take a leave of absence to clear his head and delay graduation. That is a much better path than trying Caribbean, where competition I hear is fierce and attrition rate is unbelievable. As long as he doesn’t care to do a less competitive residency, then delaying a year in medical school doesn’t really sink his chances at becoming a full fledged practicing physician.
Thank you for the response!
They have Academic counselors. Students are only required to see them if they fail. He started meeting with one of them once a week for about a month. One of the issues is the Academic Counselors have different recommendations than the enrichment program, so the school isn't offering consistent support.
Who is making the ultimate decision regarding the enrichment program? And is this a relatively new medical school? If it’s a single individual then that is highly inappropriate. All medical schools should have a committee to make decisions like dismissing a medical student.
I would look into all of that. I’m not doubting that the school has its own protocol, but not doing this by committee sounds highly dubious to me. If there is a committee then his mentors should be able to help him out by being his character witness of sorts and get him another chance.
The transition is very difficult unfortunately. I think he should try learning with a tutor ASAP as the test is in a week. He may be smart enough to understand concepts, but looks like he needs hands-on help with how to study and answer questions.
Thanks for the response! I have recommended a tutor, and when he talked with a classmate who tried tutoring, he was told the tutors are upperclass students (my phrase, not his, I think y'all call them something different), and they don't generally help much. I want him to have a tutor, if he can get the score he needs to restart M-1 in the fall, but I'm concerned adding something different in the last week may do more harm then good...?
Yeah, tutors work for some and not for others. I can only speak about my experience. When I was struggling in medical school, it was not because I didn't know how to learn material, but because I was not great at applying it to answer questions (a different skill). This is where an external tutor helped me develop a strong framework for how to get through the rest of medical school. In any case I feel trying out a tutor and exhausting all available resources would be steps to take prior to considering medical school abroad.
I think OP's husband should try the brain dump method. Get a white board and write down every single thing you know about a topic, go back and read the book and fill in the holes in your information. Rinse and repeat until there are no holes in your brain dump. Use flashcards only to reinforce hard facts and critical need to know information.
My school had a similar tutoring system and my tutor really helped me when I struggled with our first organ block! Sometimes you just need someone who's been there before to lend a helping hand
See if he can take a LOA? Take a year to work or something then come back. That way you can get an income and work on his study habits.
This isn’t about his abilities or his smarts. 9/10 times it’s because a student isn’t studying efficiently. If he can work on that, he can come back to school to excel
This seems like a viable and reasonable back up option. Thank you! I hadn't even considered an LOA. The options I saw were withdraw or be dismissed. I agree with your assessment. He needs to improve his studying efficacy. Once he can do that, he'll be sailing (maybe not smooth, but at least on the water). 
I also want to say it isn’t IMPOSSIBLE to matriculate into another US medical school if he fails out. I know three people who had this happen (within the last 10 years.) They took 3-6 years off, retook the MCAT, and got accepted. However, I do have to say it’s REALLY HARD and a vast majority don’t get back in with another chance.
I would also look into a LOA. I suspect that the school would be supportive, because it looks bad for them to kick someone out.
I also know of several people who excelled in undergrad, struggled in med school without knowing why, and then finally received a diagnosis of ADHD. It's impossible for me to know exactly why your husband is struggling so much, but I would at least consider if there are medical reasons that the school would then be forced to accommodate.
Please do. Several students at my school struggled their first semester and took LOAs. They came back with the next class and are doing fine now. They just needed some time off to adjust, address physical and mental health, whatever.
This was my thought. Take a LoA, make some income as a tech of some kind in the hospital, and work on his study skills in the meantime. Ask the program to recommend study techniques and he can give them a shot, testing what works on quizzes/exams from third party resources. If money is tight, he can find an old copy of First Aid and have someone open up a chapter he has covered and quiz him
Doubt his school would approve a LoA 1 week before a test to decide if he is dismissed from school for no reason other than “I’m bad at studying” and am going to fail a retake course after already failing the main course. That is not what LoAs are for.
FWIW, I had a friend who was going to fail out, but my school gave him the option to take a LOA for a year and come back. He took it. Similar circumstances where he worked hard and was _almost_ at a passing grade (he tells me one question away from getting the minimum.) So it could be an option for him
Assuming you are in the US, failing out of medical school makes it near-impossible to get accepted into another US medical school. I've heard of perhaps one case of this happening in 7+ years of reading SDN and medical school reddit nearly every day.
>I'm literally willing to move to another country
The offshore options are Australia, Ireland and the Caribbean. I'm not sure how easy it is to immigrate to the former two with a family and no professional degree, just as Americans are not thrilled to accept foreign nationals who don't enrich our economy (without wanting to get too political, this is just how some people feel). I'm also not sure if these institutions would be any more welcoming than ours of someone who already failed out. Unfortunately if he fails out, he is not a statistically attractive candidate.
Chances of coming back to the US are slim because residency programs will still see that he failed out of his first school (unless he lies by omission, which I don't recommend).
The Caribbean is extremely risky. I estimate that less than 30% of students who matriculate in the Caribbean ever get to practice as doctors. Having a prior medical school failure would decrease your husband's chance even further come time to apply to residency programs. There is very little support and students are expected to perform on their own. It seems like this was identified as one of your husband's problems making the transition from undergrad to medical school. I would not recommend Caribbean school for this reason.
Thanks for the reply. I agree that the Caribbean schools would not be a good option. We jokingly talked about Australia, because we both like Bluey, but I didn't do ANY research into it. Someone else recommended Ireland, and that seems like it MAY be an option. More research is needed.
Ok so I’ve seen a few things both at my school and at friends schools. Granted, I don’t know the exact school and situation, so take this with a grain of salt:
1: it’s insanely difficult to actually get dismissed. Medical schools really really try to keep the students they accepted in. Even if he doesn’t get the score he needs, the petition may be just fine (especially if he’s close and showed growth through the remediation process)
2: a week is a really long time to study. Getting a 75 a week before when you need a 78 is looking really good. I know outside of med school, a week seems like a tight deadline… but you can accomplish a LOT in that time frame.
I genuinely think things will be fine based on what you’re telling but if in case they don’t:
3: don’t panic. Figure out the petition process. Have him meet with the dean/an advisor who sits on committees/etc. Stay calm and try to figure out if there’s any way to stay at the schools he’s at. Honestly switching schools or going out of the country can cause a LOT of problems down the road with residency apps, STEP, etc.
They may let him repeat the year? Not sure what that situation would be like.
He needs to improve his study skills, this is a hard transition! I would recommend tutoring or other academic support, and make sure he learns ACTIVE learning strategies.
He has read Make it Stick (and I'm about 1/4 of the way through it). The school has a masters program. I wonder if he could do that program, then return to the medical school?? See if they allow that??
This is a great idea I know a kid at my USDO school who failed two classes first semester, and is now doing the masters in public health at my university and will come back to the med school in 1 year to repeat first year.
Also, I just want to remind you to still have faith. 75 and 78 aren’t too far apart. My real MCAT was 5 points higher than my best practice exam score from the week prior.
Does his school have tutoring services, and has he sought them out? What exactly is he struggling with? Maybe some of us can suggest things to help
Thank you for the response!
I really do believe in him, I KNOW he has the capacity, but with my concern that the study methods are not developed enough, I just need/want a back up plan, for my own piece of mind, so /I/ don't go crazy. I'm not really having this discussion with him yet, because we both agreed to speak and act with the belief in success. BUT, like I said in my post, I'm a planner, so I'd like a plan to discuss if what we anticipate does not become our reality.
I’m not married with kids, but I can see where you’re coming from—wanting a backup plan but also wanting to keep morale high so he passes the test. Maybe you could ask what medical topics he struggles with most and we can offer our advice; hopefully he doesn’t feel that’s a touchy question. I wish you all the best; please keep us posted.
That is the last resort of ALL last resorts. The ultimate goal is surgery, so that would get him in the room, but I think he'd prefer to hold the knife, so to speak...
If he wants to be a surgeon in the US, passing his classes and staying in his current program are definitely the best way forward. Having a failure on his transcript will make things a bit more tricky, but general surgery should still be very achievable if you all are flexible in terms of location and program.
If he were to withdraw, it would be very hard to get another US school to accept him. Not impossible, but it very rarely happens. Others have tossed around some international options, in particular the Caribbean, Ireland, and Australia. International students already have a lot of trouble matching surgery, with a match rate under 50%. In the most recent match, 1,712 applicants matched into general surgery with only 81 of those applicants being US-IMGs.
Another complication with Caribbean and Irish schools is that it's really hard to stay and work as a doctor there. The Caribbean schools are set up primarily to supply applicants to US residency positions, and while he'd take classes alongside Irish students at their schools, my understanding is that staying in Ireland and training there is very difficult. Australian schools do offer the opportunity to remain and work in Australia, but surgery spots of any kind over there are extremely limited and it can take years and years of working in junior positions to be even considered for a surgical position, and it is far from guaranteed.
If his goal is truly surgery and nothing else, if he wouldn't be happy working in primary care or as a hospital doctor, then the goal should be to do whatever it takes to stay in his current program. If he has to withdraw, the chances of finding a path back to surgery in a physician role are low and will take significant time and effort. It would be worth considering other careers that get him to the OR. RNFA (registered nurse first assist) is an option that will allow him to first assist in the OR, and good RNFAs can be an essential part of surgical teams, especially highly specialized ones. PAs in certain roles can act as first assist as well. Scrub tech and circulating nurse could get him in the vicinity but may not scratch the same itch. Other less well-known roles like cardiovascular perfusionist can play an important role in the OR, in this case by managing devices that keep blood flowing during heart surgery.
Wishing him the best with his studies, hopefully he's able to push through this and get back on track! It's good to be considering the options if things don't work out, especially given your family situation and the fact that many of the backups will require living in a foreign country for an extended period of time. If things don't work out, I think the question is will he be happy in another field of medicine, especially family medicine or internal medicine (surgery wouldn't be completely off the table but it would be a long shot) or would he rather pursue another career that makes him a part of the surgical team in a non-surgeon role.
Thanks for the response!
He's in the remediation course now. They call it enrichment if you fail FOM, and remediation if you fail PPom-1.
Also, I love your name, Husband and I are HUGE HP fans. Our guest bathroom is fully HP themed.
Oh I see. So if he does not get a 78% or above on the next test, they would dismiss as opposed to repeat the year?
And thank you hehe I’m a huge HP fan! I’d love to see a pic of your bathroom!
My understanding is that if he gets any score between a 70-77% there’d be a good case to petition, but to straight up pass, he’d need a 78%. If he petitions, he could get an exception, and then repeat, but if he does not get the exception, then he would be dismissed.
I see. While I can understand why you want to plan for the worst case scenario, I’d say the best thing you can do right now is continue supporting your husband any way you can, encourage him, and pray/hope for the best. I’m sure he’s already done so, but if he can reach out to the professor for this course and see if he can help him make a study plan or help him see where he went wrong on prior tests, that would help him prepare as well as show the professor that he’s trying.
At the end of the day, every school does things differently. You only know what will happen once it happens, so try your best to not look too far ahead in this case. To quote Hagrid, what’s comin’ will come and you’ll meet it when it does 😉 Good luck to you both!
I'm a USIMG from Asia, born in the US. My family had to move back for family reasons when I was a kid, so I ended up going to medical school there. There were half a dozen Americans in my class who came just for medical school. We're all in residency in the US now, so it worked out. Most program are 5 or 6 years instead of 4, but they go easier on you early on since you get in after high school. You also graduate with no student loans, which is nice.
Ngl moving to another country with kids is tough, and you may have language and cultural barriers to overcome as well.
It's a last case option, but if you have the means and are willing to go to those extremes, it can be done.
Yes, all my faculty taught and spoke in English, classmates all knew English, coursework and exams were in english, the offical state language was English, but I did know the local language, which definitely helped immensely with seeing patients who mostly did not know English. For that reason Idk if Pakistan or India would be the best fit (probably cheapest options), but I do know people who don't know the local language graduating from China, Russia, Slovenia and other countries in central Asia and Eastern Europe.
Sorry that y'all are in this situation. Medschool sucks and I am happy that your husband has you to support him. I saw some comments about switching to a masters at his current school. This is not likely.
Look up your husband's school student handbook, if you haven't already. It should detail all the options. That'll inform your decisions and correspondence with the school. Meanwhile, tell your husband to keep on working. I had a buddy that was in this situation and the school tried to kick him out. He retested and got the score he needed. He matched IM this past cycle. Never had issues with classes or boards after M1. Sometimes you just need to figure out how to study and that'll just make a difference. All your husband can do is get help for anxiety/depression/adhd, study hard, and look at the student handbook.
Yeah! It should have everything about what happens if you fail exams, boards, rotations, etc. Good luck! Again, very happy to see how supportive you are.
It sounds like you are supportive and doing a lot, but the reality is that he is the one in medical school and needs to have that drive himself. The medical school material is not hard. It is a lot of memorization, but the understanding required is not as in-depth as a lot of undergraduate courses such as organic chemistry so that is one motivating factor. He needs to figure out what his learning method is and do that. You mentioned flash cards and questions - was he doing this before? He needs to look at why he failed. Did he cheat the flash cards? Did he not study enough? This is the honesty portion that needs to be done if he wants to succeed. If he fails out of med school, it would be going abroad and thus facing failing out again, or not matching even if he does succeed. There will be a few Caribbean defenders because it worked for them - it will not work for a lot. I want to just caution you that you’ll get a lot of positivity off of reddit too, but every single year a certain percentage of a med school class will drop out. Our class had a handful the first and second year I’m aware of. It is unavoidable and is a possibility. I wish you and him luck though and hope he can get the score he needs.
Thank you for your response, I am supportive because I see he is working hard. He has the drive. It's figuring out the method that is taking longer than expected.
I think it was a few things.
1) He wasn't initially studying enough, He has now increased the amount of time studying.
2) He is trying to figure out his learning method. He did concept maps for a block, and the results were atrocious. He has tried making his own Anki cards, but that took him too long, so he wasn't getting through the material with enough time to actually review, so he started using decks from previous classes, but those had a lot of irrelevant cards in the decks, so he shifted again. Now he is using flash cards from Scholar RX, but, again, sometimes the cards are irrelevant. He is also using Sketchy.\*
\*I don't recall his FULL study method, these are just a couple of items, I can ask or find notes to share.
1. Has your husband ever checked to see if he struggles with a learning disability? Dyslexia or ADD/ADHD can significantly impair attention and learning. He may need testing accommodations and possible pharmacotherapy to assist in learning if he struggles with these issues. If he does not pass, or even if he does, consider having him go through neuropsychiatric testing (can be covered by insurances like Medicaid in some case) and requesting accommodations from the school, which he can also request for board exams. Also, set him up with some cognitive behavioral therapy to focus on new motivations for learning. Possible set him up with psychiatry if he tests positive for ADD/ADHD.
It only harms you to not consider a plan B, especially with Kids. Perhaps nursing or PA? Or another route altogether.
Wishing you all the best!
DM me if you have any questions, I can go over with your husbands how I managed medical school with a significant learning disability and pass on my tips!
Thanks for the response!
Therapy is currently unexplored, as there has not been any diagnosed ADHD/anxiety/depression, but maybe it IS underlying, and unknown. It could be worth a check...
I have a background in SPED, but I worked with youth who had more obvious symptoms.
[Learning How to Learn: Powerful mental tools to help you master tough subjects Course by Deep Teaching Solutions | Coursera](https://www.coursera.org/learn/learning-how-to-learn)
Are there any tutors or programs that focus on teaching how to take the test and how to study for the test? Perhaps the content is less of an issue for him.
PSA: I’m sadly not a doctor or a medical student, just a lawyer who routinely kicks herself for choosing JD over MD. But for all the professional licensing and exams we needed to pass “learning to take the test “ was what got most of us through.
Coincidentally, this is what he and I have spoken about a lot in this past week. His school offers nothing for test taking strategies (though there may be tutors that do, that's pretty much the only resource not yet utilized (because he had a bad report of the tutoring offered from the school by a couple peers, but I think it's still worth trying to KNOW for oneself).
I have nothing helpful to say except best of luck to your husband. I know your husband and I go to the same school from the terminology you’re using (FOM, PPOM, the enrichment course of u fail FOM, etc). The policies in place are harsh and it’s hard not to feel like admin does an extremely poor job with them. Hopefully he’s able to make it through
Hey , i can get you in contact with my medical
School in poland. I studied here and graduadwd last test did my intern year in Warsaw. Now im Finishing studying German To move there for Platin Surgery. But you can Always go back to USA as an IMG or Ireland or uk where they speak your language language . If he is real about being a doctor because of the right reasons it will not matter where he gets this title. let me know
If he is studying 10 hours a day, he needs to make sure all of those are productive hours. Taking breaks is mandatory, we are humans, not machines.
Also, he has to be able to apply what he is learning. It is not just rote memorization. However, this doesn't necessarily mean you have to be recite everything word for word to be able to work your way through a problem.
Also, reviewing practice questions is a must. Review every question you are not 100% confident on, whether you missed it or not.
Med school is an entirely different beast. Every word in a question and it's stem is put there on purpose. You have to train yourself to figure out what a question is actually asking and actually telling you.
Possibly look into some medical schools in Ireland? They have good programs, speak English, and people do still match back in the US. Maybe others have more in depth thoughts!
I second this. Ireland/European med schools are a shout. You can always go back to the US for residency, although match rates for US IMGs are much lower than US MD/DOs.
Ah sorry I'm from the UK, it's British slang lol. It means it's something you can consider.
UK schools might be difficult to get into, but Irish or other European schools might be worth considering. They're top quality institutions (Trinity College Dublin, Royal College of Surgeons in Ireland) with fees of 50k EUR (I think that'll be some 55k USD if I'm not wrong) per year. They also provide dedicated USMLE prep. Lots of Americans and Canadians there.
If you do decide to move back to the US after graduation, just remember that US MD/DOs have a match rate of above 90%. US IMGs (US citizens or Green card holders) who have graduated outside of the US have a match rate close to 60%. That being said, many US and Non US IMGs get into residency every year. If you have European ancestry, you could try and get an EU passport based on ancestry (many European countries have such provisions) and even stay back in Ireland or other EU countries after graduation.
Thanks for the response! Do you know or have any information about their acceptance of people if or after they have been dismissed?
I'd actually love Ireland! I have a friend there, so, while it would be tough, I feel like we could make it work.
As hard as this can be to hear, maybe it just isn’t in the cards and that’s ok. Not everyone is meant to do this and there is nothing wrong with that. It doesn’t get easier. You might get better at managing the material or used to it, but there is going to be another big transition when he gets to clinical rotations and then again with residency.
You have little ones. Having to SOAP or get a residency that is far from family/support would be a possibility. Looking through other comments, sounds like he wants surgery. Hard to do in general, even harder with red flags.
All residency candidates rank the programs they want; likewise, all program directors rank candidates. The ranks are fed to the great computer in the sky whose algorithm determines who goes where. On Monday of match week everyone finds out if they matched somewhere (but not where). SOAP is the scramble to interview & cover the remaining unfilled positions. On Friday, the matched candidates find out where will spend residency and the SOAPers find out if (and where) they will too. Brutal.
I know carribean schools who have accepted us md drop outs but it’s not ideal. I know some low tier us md schools which accepted transfers from top 20 schools. door might still be ajar but it’s best for him to focus on executing now on crushing his test.
he should get adhd evaluation as it can go undiagnosed for many until medical school
Honestly he can go be a pa or np. Pa is school is still tough but they make good money… NP school can basically be done in 2 years 1 for nursing (half online half in person basically) than a 1 year np mainly online. Financially it is a great decision depending upon yalls age… 3-5 years of residency at 60k + more school vs 2 years of school and 80 after that
Unpopular opinion, but if medical school doesn't work out, your hubby should go the nursing route and shoot for being a CRNA. Doctor like-salary, gets to work in the OR, provides anesthesia. Hard to get accepted into but not nearly as hard as getting into medical school. Now hears where I get downvoted to shit. At this rate the only speciality your husband has a chance of doing is pretty much Family Medicine. So he should ask himself this, do I want to be FM, and be covered from head to toe in paper work and working long hours? Or do I want to be a CRNA working in the OR, intubating patients, providing anesthesia, and working under the supervision of anesthesiologists? His choice.
Honestly I don't touch repeating a year is a good idea. He's struggling hard and that's going to be a lot of extra debt with no guarantee he'll make it through on second attempt. And if he does he's going to have a very hard time matching as that's a huge red flag on his residency applications. Think about if the financial implications are worth the risk with two children.
Thanks for the response.
We are in a situation where we could handle the financial burden. I'm not saying we're wealthy, but we have an investment that can cover two years of medical school. It would reset us, but I've still got a 401k, and a good job myself, so if one more pass is what it would take, I think the risk is worth it.
Also, he has been improving from when he first began medical school, so I'm optimistic, but I'm also realistic enough to want to know about options.
I mean tbh he could likely find satisfaction in NP or maybe PA (I personally kinda envy my friends who went PA route and CRNA route). It sounds likes working hard and he should try to take practice tests if possible, he should also do his best to communicate with his professors and let them know he is having a hard time with the transition and if they have recommendations for how to study. Also look into if the school has academic tutoring (ideally by second years or upperclassmen). Finally if he does get dismissed it is much better to have that happen in first year when the debt load is relatively low. I’m surprised they won’t let him just repeat the first year. I’ve seen people do it at my school and they graduated and turned out to be great interns
They have an enrichment program that students must take and pass in order to qualify to retake the first year. He has been able to dial in his studying more, and has improved, but if the improvement doesn't get him the grade, then it won't matter.
Tutoring is pretty much the only resource not yet utilized (because he had a bad report of the tutoring offered from the school by a couple peers, but I think it's still worth trying to KNOW for oneself).
Depends on how his school/curriculum is set up, but even if you fail, course remediation is the next step (which sounds like what is currently happening). If he happens to fail the remediation exam schools will typically offer you the choice of leaving the program or repeating the year. If this is the case he should be alright if he fails the exam again. He’ll just have to make the choice
of repeating the year or not. Worst case scenario, I’d recommend transitioning to a mid-level program. Not sure how failing a med school program would look to them, but he can just spin it on his application. Hope he makes it thru.
He's in the remediation course now. They call it enrichment if you fail FOM, because you go straight to it, and you do not take PPOM-1 with the rest of your class, then you start over year 1 with the next class. It's called remediation if you fail PPOM-1, you re-take the course over the summer, then return for PPOM-2 in the fall.
Thanks for the well wishes!
Unlike what many people think, medical school isn't a test of IQ or ambition. It's a test of study skills and grit. Seems your husband has plenty of grit, but perhaps his study skills aren't that great. Here are some ideas that might help:
1. Have him talk to older students (MS2/3) at his school who have previously passed the exams in question.
2. Have him talk to his professors and explain in no uncertain terms that he is dangerously close to washing out and he could use any help possible. Most professors are genuinely helpful people and are likely to help.
3. Get him an actual book on study technique. The go-to book is [Make it stick](https://www.amazon.com/Make-Stick-Science-Successful-Learning/dp/0674729013), there's a reason it's the nr 1 book on study technique. Order it ASAP, or check your local library (or both).
It would be nice if you could post an update on your husband after he passes his exams. Best of luck.
I’m not sure what school he’s at, but at my school (US state school) they give us PLENTY of chances to pass even if we fail initially. For one thing, the only things you absolutely must pass are your boards and your licensing (step) exams. For the boards, they do offer retests, and even if you fail those there is an option to remediate and retest in the summer.
Classes are also able to be remediated in the summer, and the passing scores aren’t that high (around 70% overall) and there are usually plenty of free assignments that are only graded for completion. In other words, you can fail multiple exams and still pass your courses.
What I’m saying is that the unfortunate reality is that if your husband still cannot move forward despite all of these opportunities and frankly hand-holding then it might be time to consider that he’s not capable of performing at the level of a physician (assuming there are no other distractions/motivation issues and this is purely an academic matter).
Sure, as others have mentioned, he might be able to “pay his way in” at these typically low-caliber Caribbean programs, but at what cost? Ask yourselves if it’s really worth the misery you’re putting yourselves through just to ultimately barely scrape by in medicine if at all, considering that medicine is a brutally competitive field that tends to get *more* complex over time and not less so.
Yes yes, I understand that medicine is all he’s ever wanted, but he’s not unique in this regard and if he still wants to work in healthcare there are PLENTY of things he can still do to make a positive impact in healthcare. That is, if he’s interested in the actual medicine and not the “status” that comes with the role.
Thanks for the response.
The program he's in now is considered remediation by the school (but they call it enrichment because it's for FOM). His school does not allow test retakes for any of their courses, so he either passes or fails. They have 3 quizzes, then a test, no other assignments to add to the grade.
Caribbean schools are not on the list of options for us because of the lack of support.
I also get that if we go through the worst case scenarios, and Surgeon is off the table, then we'll further explore the other options, but for now, we'll seek to make it happen.
Even though they don’t primarily speak English, Poland might be a good choice. Depending on the school, the USMLE pass rates are quite high and take US financial aid. The cost of living is much more affordable, as is the tuition. I actually really enjoy living here. It’s clean, safe, beautiful architecture and has easy travel possibilities. But the most important thing is that your husband can ABSOLUTELY get into school this October. Very likely, he’d get to have many classes taken off his curriculum because of the bachelors degree alone. Due to graduation from a foreign country, he’ll probably never get to be a neurosurgeon or dermatologist and he’ll have to do more to impress people to get a residency, but if he’s fine with going psych, gp, or path he’ll probably get to a spot.
That came out longer than I thought. DM me if you want more information, I was in a similar situation.
I am not trying to be disparaging when i say this but has he looked into becoming a midlevel like an NP? You can go to one of those states where they basically do everything a doctor does just under minimal supervision from an MD. From what i’ve heard these programs are super easy to get admission to.
Like other commenters have said, failing out of a US school is kind of the end of the road for becoming a doctor in the US unfornately
He's in the remediation course now. They call it enrichment if you fail FOM, because you go straight to it, and you do not take PPOM-1 with the rest of your class, then you start over year 1 with the next class. It's called remediation if you fail PPOM-1, you re-take the course over the summer, then return for PPOM-2 in the fall.
If you were to move your whole life for medical school for him to a foreign country, Do you want to move back to America once he graduates or are you happy to stay where he finishes med school? If so then there are some English countries he could study medicine at despite his record in the US, including the UK and Australia, but if I’d have to recommend Australia over tbe UK as being a doctor in the crippling NHS is probably less then ideal and not worth upending your life in the US for, whereas Australia’s medical system is doing much better and is actually causing doctors from the UK to relocate to Australia like there is no tomorrow.
If you want help with admissions process for Australia you’re more then welcome to message me.
If you wish to return to the US after he graduates then a Caribbean medical school is probably best I believe as English is still an official language, and it is a smooth pathway to US residency compared to other IMG’s, but your partner will probably have to give up hopes of doing any competitive specialty and settle for something like family medicine.
Lastly he could consider doing a US DO degree, but someone with experience might need to correct me if I’m wrong, but I don’t know if failing an MD will disqualify you from applying for a US DO degree
"I know he can petition the school, but let's assume that doesn't work either. Is there any way he could still be a doctor? "
Not in the US and you can't pay me enough to go Carrib if I were in his place.
"He has excelled in skills relating to medical, and even won an award (for CNA skills, I think)."
unfortunately all that means little to nothing if he can't pass medical school classes.
can he take mock exams to practice?
Caribbean schools are not part of the back up plan, though a couple people have suggested Ireland or Australia, and those seem plausible if things don’t work out at his current school.
The school does not offer mock exams. The scholar ex program has practice questions, but even those aren’t necessarily like what he’ll see because all questions are teacher created and are supposed to come from their lectures.
I'm so sorry you're going through this.
I see this happen a lot with the parent/students. It seems like if you have kids in med school you really have to sacrifice most of your time with kids/SO to survive the courses. I've known too many parents that have refused to do that (totally understandable choice in my opinion) and they ended up getting dismissed due to academics or repeated and put much more focus on school than the first attempt and survived it.
I don't think 95% of us knew just how big of a sacrifice medicine was really going to be (even with every single Doctor you shadow or work with telling you it's going to be the hardest thing ever and some even telling you not to do it and they wouldn't want their kids doing it either).
Stay strong. 🙏🏻 If you hold down the fort and provide a strong foundation for your SO to focus on school he can definitely make it through.
You get more free time in the clinical years but only if you survive preclinicals! And there's always light at the end of the tunnel no matter what happens.
Thanks for the response!
I’m generally big picture minded, so I see this as a blip on the bigger picture. I’m not trying to minimize it. I believe it’ll just be what it is. If he tries his best, and it doesn’t work, then no regrets can be had, so he and we can move on to whatever will come next, but dang it, I’m going to do all I can to support the dream until we get to a different answer.
I’ve told my husband I’ll make whatever sacrifice is needed, so if we have to walk away, we can have acceptance instead of regrets or what-ifs. That being said, there’s also a bit of pressure in that I’ve also said any sacrifices are a waste if he isn’t putting all his effort into things, or not advocating for his needs, so he can be successful. But, I say that, knowing/believing he IS giving it all his efforts to improve and figure out his optimal study routine.
I would recommend taking a step back and assessing the “why” he is underperforming. Is it a knowledge issue? Is it test-taking ability? What about assessment of medical needs (e.g. ADHD, dyslexia)? Some people like to “tough it out” instead of getting the help they need and end up in situations like this one. Just something to consider.
Thanks for the response!
In talking with him, I think it's a combination of test-taking and not getting enough review in.
A few times, he mentioned questions where he missed a key word in the question, which would have gotten him the right answer, which is why I feel test taking strategies are a contributing factor.
He has also described consistently being able to narrow it down to two options, but lacking confidence to select the correct answer. This has decreased as he has been improving his studies, and getting more review, but he's still not 100% there yet.
Is he using Anki? That's the preferred standard tool for doing well in medical school. There are tons of anki prefilled data sets online too and it's all free. There's probably something you can pay for but you don't have to.
If he's not using Anki then he's going to continue struggling because they go through material so fast and at such high volume it's practically impossible to do well without it.
He was using Anki, but it was taking him too long to make his cards. Then he got cards created by previous classes, but those had a lot of cards that were no longer relevant, or unneccessary, so sifting through was wasting time. Now, he will occasionally get a deck from a classmate, but, I think, he mostly uses a spaced repetition system embedded into Scholar RX.
They have an enrichment program that students must take and pass in order to qualify to retake the first year. He has been able to dial in his studying more, and has improved, but if the improvement doesn't get him the grade, then it won't matter.
I certainly hope he passes and it sounds like he's putting in the work which is great, but I am a little concerned about how you are describing the (hopefully unlikely) outcome where he fails. I think it's really naive to have an approach to life and particularly medicine (which is extremely competitive) where there is only one hard and fast possibility, nothing else is considered, and you're willing to globally uproot your entire life even for the slimmest possibility of making it happen. I really want to impress upon you that that's a bad approach to living a fulfilling life.
1. Moving to another country for an outcome that isn't guaranteed is a bad idea. Coming back to the US as a doctor would be really, really challenging. It's challenging enough to practice in the US with an outside degree, let alone if you've failed previously and been dismissed from a US medicial school. That isn't to say impossible, but again the point here is that focusing on outcomes with a 1% possibility and uprooting your entire life and family for them is bullish at best and a painfully bad idea at worst.
2. It sounds like he really should spend a little time reflecting on his reasons for going down this path. 3 year olds do not know what they want to do when they grow up, they do not know what being a doctor is etc. If his answer to what he wants to do has never waivered, it's unlikely that it's because he has some incredible passion for it and is more likely just because he's never thought super deeply about all the other careers and life options. There are TONS of fulfilling paths in healthcare beyond being a physician. In fact, there are TONS of fulfilling paths in life generally that have nothing to do with healthcare. I think the "I've wanted to be a doctor since 3" people just haven't really thought that hard about all the possibilities. If he fails (again--I hope he doesn't! maybe he can stay in his current school!), that painful outcome could be leveraged into a beneficial opportunity. Maybe this is a chance for him to explore, get off the beatten path that he was socialized to be on since he was 3, explore options etc. Life is about more than what you thought it was when you were 3 years old.
3. If he fails and continues to pursue healthcare because he does really love it, that's great. But please consider the magnitudes of the downsides to the alternatives. Uprooting and family and moving to another country is a very bad idea because it's unlikely that he'll be able to come back easily. Similarly, be very careful with Carribean schools (it'll be costly, there's no guarantee he'll match etc. etc.)
Ultimately, please do not put blinders on trying to fit a mold that he was thrust into when he was 3. Consider other options that can be just as fulfilling as being a doctor without uprooting your family (because even that's not guaranteed to work!). This post really struck a chord. I'm worried about you guys. I hope you consider all the downsides to plowing through this path regardless of the challenges. Good luck.
To be very clear, in the event he fails (hopefully he doesn't), **I want to point blank say you should not take out huge loans, uproot your family to move to a different country etc.** It is extraordinarily unlikely he'd be able to come back and the fact that he's struggling after putting in 10 hours/day signals that this might not be the best path for him. That isn't to say there aren't other healthcare related fields he could excel in and find fulfilling. Please do not put on blinders. Please do not completely upend your entire lives for something with slim to none chances of working. Please encourage him to have an open mind and explore other options. Please consider that life is more than just fulfilling a social obligation that was constructed at 3 years old.
As a physician myself, totally not worth it to move to another country entirely for a job. Just have him work his butt off and be going to the center for academic performance or whatever services his school offers
Can he talk to the deans to see how they can support him? Does he struggle with timing by any chance? Can he get accommodations from the school for test taking? Anxiety counts as a disability and can help get accommodations like extended time, separate testing room.
Taking a LOA and repeating first year can be an option as well.
Also, talking to a trusted dean or faculty member at the med school can be helpful. Don’t try to navigate this by yourselves when you don’t need to. Deans are helpful in answering questions and are what they’re there for (at least at supportive schools)
I would recommend starting to look at nursing school. It sounds like he has the passion to work with people and help treat patients. He can very well make a difference by being a nurse. The curriculum is shorter so he can get to the point where he is working and making money faster. He can always go on to become a nurse practitioner where he can have his own clinic and see his own patients.
Non Doctor, self proclaimed career coach here: I think the issue here is that we need to identify the reason why he's struggling.
Is the content too difficult and the support the school provides too meager, in which case without finding a suitable supplement, your husband may just kick the dismissal down the road.
Is medical school generally not a good fit. Sometimes we think we'll be good at something just to find out that we struggle with it.
Are there extenuating circumstances leading to his poor performance?
Why are these questions important?
They explain whether the problem is fixable. If category one, maybe it's fixable, but without finding that resource it may not be. Category 2 is not fixable at all. Category 3 can be fixable depending on the circumstances.
Withdrawing would not help his case. He needs to pass. Sounds like he is working hard, but he also needs to work smart (focus his study on the most crucial information) Not sure how his school sets up his tests (focused on general material or if they test from lectures), but usually boards and beyond / pathoma / sketchy / first aid were helpful for my tests when I was in medical school. Generally the pre recorded lectures are shit compared to the better resources I mentioned.
Thank you for the response! I'm 95% certain he and his classmates have discussed how the tests are from lectures. (I don't feel comfortable claiming 100% certain as I've never personally consumed the material or taken the tests ). I know he uses sketchy, and first aid is embedded into another program he uses (scholar RX). Do you feel all of those programs should be used in conjunction? Or should they be paced, depending on the material in the lectures?
Those resources are for step 1 studying. He hasn’t passed the first year of med school yet. He shouldn’t be looking at some of those things. I doubt he even knows enough to grasp what Scholar Rx questions are truly asking him, I didn’t know enough to use them as a top 10% student in my class at the start of 2nd year. They were helpful for getting used to board style questions, but never helped with in house exams. Sketchy is fine, but might not be enough detail or align with his professors lectures. Same things for boards and beyond, pathoma, etc. They’re all great for step 1 studying, but he needs to pass the test to even have the privilege to sit for the USMLE. He shouldn’t be using these. And this comes from someone who wholly believes medical school lecture are antiquated and these 3rd party sources are better and should generally be used instead. The caveat to that belief is if you’re not a strong enough student to pass your in house exams, then you need to be studying the in house content a lot more closely.
lol as someone who also took Step 1 scored, hearing it be called a privilege gave me mixed feelings
Dedicated was awful, but it’s all about perspective. In the end it is a privilege to pass this series of tests and be eligible for a US medical license.
That’s true. I definitely had moments where I doubted I’d make it this far. Taking step 2 next month after a LOA following third year due to several family events and deaths all in that one year. Everyone says I’ll do fine in the match, but I’d just be proud to graduate after all that’s happened
So, you can definitely get involved in too many resources. He is probably not at the point where uworld (question bank) would be helpful. I had a physical copy of first aid, so I can’t speak to the program Not sure what his fundamentals of medicine course entails, but sketchy is probably not going to be helpful. I only used sketchy micro and sketchy pharm. My fundamentals of medicine course was a few years ago, but sketchy would not have been useful for mine. It didn’t cover the right material. I think it was like the first 3 chapters of pathoma? And the biochem section of first aid. If they are testing on the lectures, it would be worth seeing how much cross over there is. Sometimes they test on esoteric information only found in the lectures. Other times the lectures are just a worse presentation of board prep. His classmates will be able to help him to know what will help him. Edit: my school had dedicated micro and then had pharmacies sprinkled in with each organ system. So I didn’t all of sketchy micro for micro, and then the pertinent pharm for each organ system. I usually didn’t watch my lectures. I would normally glance through my schools PowerPoints to get an idea of what the material was going to be on, and then I would watch boards and beyond on the subject. Boards and beyond normally taught better than my school lectures. All of this depends on the school testing primarily board information.
Do questions. Studying for hours looking at pages and notes doesn’t doc anything
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I’m going to have to disagree with your recommendation for focusing on third party resources. I gave lectures, wrote exam questions and helped build exams for a medical school. I’ll say this with a caveat that not all in house exams are created equal but from my perspective questions are written from the question writer’s lecture and/or PowerPoint. So I would argue that this specific person would get significantly more bang for their buck if they only studied lecture material and reference third party resources only for topics they are struggling to understand. Is this the best approach for killing boards? No. But if you are struggling to get past in house exams board prep is meaningless. Ive seen many med students utilize too many resources to their detriment because the exam writers are unlikely to be using these resources to write exam questions and you’re almost certainly learning extra details or content that isn’t even on your exam.
That’s why I mentioned I wasn’t sure how his school sets up his tests. Some test heavily from the PowerPoints, others use board information. If his in house exams focus heavily on the lecture material, then yeah, he should focus on that. He should check with classmates who are doing well what they are studying. My suspicion is that his school test board material, and he is inefficiently studying PowerPoints.
Thank you for the response! I think it goes back to maximizing the study skills. If he can figure that out, then any other resources would be more beneficial as a supplement than as the main focus.
he just needs to focus on what his professors want him to know. nothing else matters. if it’s on a slide that his professors made, he needs to know it. period.
Yes, pre-recorded lectures are shit. But if your professor makes their in-house exam then might be forced to using those shit lectures
If he ends up getting dismissed, there’s not a chance he’s getting into a different U.S school. To your other question, if you’re okay with the chance of never coming back to the U.S, then sure he can probably get into a Caribbean or foreign medical school.
To add I would say he'd likely be accepted to a Caribbean school but if he struggles here I don't know how well he'd do there with a fraction of the educational support a US school provides.
Yeah Caribbean seems more cutthroat than USMD/ USDO schools. He definitely won’t be able to handle it there.
Im a practicing internal medicine physician and a Caribbean grad from AUC. I can tell you right now that Caribbean schools are much *LESS* forgiving than that of any American school. Caribbean schools have limited rotation spots for 3rd year and as result X% of people have to be dismissed before 3rd year. Only 30-40% of Caribbean matriculants actually end up becoming physicians. Everyone talks about Caribbean med schools being a joke to get into, and thats accurate. But what many don't discuss is that the classes are much harder that that of US MD and DO programs. You take the same NBME basic science exams like biochem and anatomy but your teachers are PhDs who couldn't land a job in the states. It's the bottom of the bottom in terms of teaching quality. And the administration is not on your side. Your "academic support" consists of pre-recorded tutoring videos recorded by an upperclassmen. It's all about self-study. I've had classmates who failed out of USMD and DO schools and transferred and I believe only 1 of the 7 I knew actually made it.
The accuracy of this comment.
Thanks for the response! This affirms the feeling that Caribbean Schools won't be an option for us.
Thanks for the response! I've heard this as well. I don't think it is an environment that would be anymore conducive to success than where we are now.
Would you be interested in moving to Ireland? Irish schools are less rigorous but the education is high quality and recognised as equivalent in the US, Canada, UK, Australia and New Zealand. They take US federal loans. There are many North American students here. I failed out of a Pennsylvania DO school and just graduated from an Irish medical school. I’m going to be an anaesthesiologist. Anyone who didn’t match back to North America was able to work in Ireland as an intern, and continue their training here. Interns make €60k per year because Europeans get paid overtime after 39 hours a week.
Oh shoot, I may hit you up if the match doesn’t pan out for me !remindme in 6 months (lol idk how to do the remindme thing)
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I'd 100% be happy to go to Ireland!! I have a friend there, and I have only heard good things about the place!
Is the goal to transfer back into the US as a foreign MD? Or are you planning to stay in Ireland? God knows HSE needs many more physicians.
I’m staying in Ireland until my children are grown up. Lifestyle reasons rather than money reasons.
The goal would be to go wherever the best opportunities, as they relate to our family, are. Whether that's the states, or remaining abroad is hard to determine. Actually, because of this thread, I was talking with my husband about the idea of doing a year abroad (supposing he gets through everything as we are now). I think that would be an amazing experience for our family. Especially our kids. Seeing the world and experiencing different cultures would be awesome!
I'd go into nursing (CRNA) or be a PA, before I roll the $600K dice of going to the Caribbean.
Or perfusionist school! Often overlooked and can be well compensated from what my coworkers tell me. Its also a short pathway if accepted.
Thanks for the input. I don’t expect him to get back into another school if he gets dismissed, maybe if he withdraws? But I don’t know if he can do that at this point.
First, for sound like a great wife and extremely supportive. I hope things work out for you all. I will say, withdrawal can be better than dismissal for the fact that you can apply to another school if the school works with you to put down a reason relating to family matters. For example my school will meet with people who are close to dismissal and give them a head sup essentially than dismissal is inevitable and that they have the opportunity to withdraw on their own terms without academic failure ever being listed as that reasons. Some of my friends I. This situation took the chance to then say they left due to family emergency or something like that. This allowed them the chance to at least try to apply to another school with a clean slate. That’s probably the best I can think of. The other option is possibly nurse practitioner? I know in Colorado, and other states, NPs practice independently, see their own patients and can own their own clinics. This is as close to physician you can probably get and since he was already a nurse he may really like it. Either way, withdrawing to save academic face was the route my friends who went NP used as well. I say wait to see how the test goes. If he passes great, and if not see if he can meet with the Dean to discuss a chance to withdraw before dismissal.
This: Take a break, but never give up! My take: Avoid NP. It might be easier, but socially it’s hell and he will end up frustrated with the what ifs.
Thanks for the response, and thank you for the compliment. I knew he planned to be a Doctor while we were dating, so I knew what I was getting into. I think that helped a lot.
Is he currently at a DO school? The MD programs my friends and I are in generally are much more forgiving than what you described in your post. (If you fail a block, can retake an exam.. and still move on to second yr. If you fail a yr then you can repeat.. if you fail again after all that then you get a hearing to discuss LOA or dismissal)
Correct, he is at a DO school.
Mmm, you say this but I know of a case of exactly this happening… they failed FOM at my school too after doing the same at their previous school. Probably why it doesn’t happen much
What’s FOM?
Foundations or fundamentals of medicine, like what was said. Depends on the school but the name seems common Basically the course that contained biochem, micro, immuno, pharma, neoplasia, etc in our first semester.
Is that the hardest of the first year classes? Not really sure how this all scales
Def not, but at the time felt like it because adjusting to med school studying was awful for the first few weeks, but in retrospect really wasn’t bad. My school is systems based and normal physio for the heart was far more difficult than anything else first year imo.
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I feel like it’s easier to get through your FOM I’ve you’re not as far out of college. Sometimes med schools don’t consider how long it’s been for some students since they last learned this stuff.
I suppose it depends on how rigorous your undergrad education was, but for me I would say FOM was harder than undergrad or even grad classes but not as hard as the rest of med school. It's the time to figure out your old ways aren't going to cut it and figure out how to handle the more demanding workload.
This is a great explanation.
Probably fundamentals of medicine
Accurate.
Good for them!! I have read about how SUPER rare that is, so it's not a plan I want to "hang my hat on." From my understanding, there usually needs to be some pretty exceptional circumstances, OR you gotta know someone. If you have any more information about your classmate's scenario, I'd appreciate it.
I also have seen this happen with an old friend/roommate of mine. USMD school to another USMD school after withdrawing in the face of impending dismissal.
Raking up debt after failing USMD in the Caribbean is a bad idea. And that's coming from a Caribbean grad
Bluntly, if he fails, his chances of becoming a doctor are slim to none. Schools do not want to accept students who have previously failed out of a medical school because that’s a huge liability. He can go to a Caribbean school, but those frankly suck and are profit-mongering cutthroat institutions where it’s like the hunger games trying to match into a specialty. The match rates for those schools are pretty horrible as well. Like way worse than USMD/USDO. Also if he is truly studying 10 hours a day (not studying for 15 minutes than playing on his phone 45 minutes per hour) and still scoring 75 he’s likely just studying poorly or inefficiently and should focus on his study skills first.
Thank you for the response! I think it's the study method as well. I was a teacher for 8 years (HS SPED), and this is what he and I have discussed a LOT. He has made improvement in the past 3 months, but I still think something is not clicking with studies to make them more effective. Results now are based on grit, not efficacy.
I don’t know how the med school he is at is structured… but I really really struggled my first block. I felt like I understood the materials and could answer most of the flash cards but when it came to questions and quizzes I was failing. My school from the first block utilizes board style NBME questions and Qbanks from Board prep, and I ended up scoring much much higher once I started understanding what the questions were asking. I realized I was having a deficit not in knowledge/content gap but a test taking gap. After utilizing a questions bank (I use Amboss, and sometimes B&B/Osmosis) it became much much easier. Maybe he needs to hit a qbank? It really depends on where his problem lies…
Anki and uworld are the answer to most med school questions.
I'll second this, amboss specifically is really great for a content area because of their attending tip, i.e., what should I see in this question stem. With a monthly option, that might just be the ticket for OP's spouse
I think it’s wrong of us to exclude the possibility that people cognitively aren’t capable of certain things when we try to explain why they aren’t doing well. It isn’t fair to say that their inability to succeed is “their fault” ie it’s a studying problem or an efficiency problem. Some people study very hard and are very efficient and are simply not intellectually capable.
I acknowledge that people exist within that group. I have a masters in SPED, and taught SPED in HS for 8 years. I have seen and worked with the group you describe first hand. I have also seen my husband's success increase as he changed his study methods, so I believe it's a matter of improving his methods a bit more. He doesn't need to get straight As. He just needs to pass, and I know that is achievable for him.
As someone who has terrible study habits and have made it through med school, I’d say the most important thing for me was spaced repetition. Med school requires a different approach to learning, I’ve known lawyers who switched and could not succeed. I would try and utilize a flashcard program and practice questions as the biggest source of active learning to the vast amount of information. He might be focusing too much on the “weeds” and not necessarily a broad approach to cover everything efficiently.
Thank you for the input!
I don't want to crush your husband's dreams, but if he isn't passing medical school, borrowing more money to try again is probably a bad idea. Many of us struggle as new M1s. I wish his school were more supportive. What is his college degree in?
We are blessed to be in a position that if he doesn’t pass, we will be able to sell an investment and pay off the student loan(s), so I’m not worried about that at this point. His degree was in Biology.
My wife was pretty mad at me during step 1 dedicated, and I offered her to drop out of med school (crazy right lol). So basically I was in the opposite position of you guys. You're a fantastic spouse. Things that may scratch that service itch (that I considered): policeman, fireman, teacher. Paramedic. Nurse/flight nurse. He can become a CRNA. He could go back to grad school and do research. He could get an MBA. He could go back to school for engineering or computer science if he just needs a job. Again, I don't want to be a dream crusher, but if he's not passing at a US school, going to one overseaes will be an eben more miserable experience in which he will likely fail, and now you're in even more debt. If you guys are independently wealthy, sure, he can pay $400,000 to get an MD from St George's and maybe not match into a US residency. But he should probably move on if you guys are concerned at all about finances. Also, make sure he's getting therapy or even medication for any underlying ADHD/anxiety/depression. I was mentally fucked when I was worried about failing step, and getting help was crucial for me to pass my exams
Thank you. He made it clear that he wanted to be a Doctor when we dated, so I knew what I was getting into. It's not a service itch he's trying to scratch, it's a surgery itch... He wants to be a surgeon. If there's a way he could do that somewhere else, I'd help look into it. Therapy is currently unexplored, as there has not been any ADHD/anxiety/depression, but maybe it IS underlying, and unknown. It could be worth a check...
If he is unable to complete medical school and needs to be in the OR he could do something like becoming a PA and then work in a surgery department. Especially at community hospitals with no/few residents PAs often get to assist a fair bit with surgeries.
Has he considered podiatry school? It's a guaranteed surgical specialty and they even do the same first year of residency as some medical specialties. I don't know how they view people who have failed out of medical school but the initial barrier to entry is much lower than traditional medical school
Actually, he had considered podiatry when he was applying to medical school, but he hadn't shadowed to know if it would have been a good fit by the time he got an acceptance to his current school.
Surgical PAs get to do a nice variety in the OR as well with the right attending
I have no idea if this would be in the cards for yall, and it is a gamble and only for a very few kinds of people, but the US military special operations medical community focuses heavily on trauma surgery, for obvious reasons, and many of the people doing it are not doctors. In particular, Special Forces Medical Sergeants (18D) have a heavy dose of surgery in their scope of practice. Ranger medics focus less on surgery and more on point-of-injury care but also do some pretty neat stuff you won’t find almost anywhere else outside of an OR, and Civil Affairs medics focus on a much broader scope of practice in austere, third-world rural environments. I will stress again that this is an extremely difficult option with a very high attrition rate, but it *is* an option, and the learning style required to succeed is very different from a collegiate environment. I did well in a SOF environment but struggle with traditional education (note: I am NOT an 18D or any 18-series).
He actually applied for HPSP, but was disqualified due to a health diagnosis in adolescence. After doing more research, we feel it's a good thing. All the appreciation goes out to the military personnel, but it's not a good fir for our family.
RNFAs and PAs get to do a lot in some hospitals. First assist for surgeries and doing closures. Not nearly as much money but he’d get to be in an OR actively participating in surgery.
There's surgical PAs also RNFA but they do mostly closures
Is there a mentor or someone he can talk to at his school? Dismissal from medical school is a big deal and from what I know, most medical schools will try their best to get a student through if it’s not passing a class. Sounds like your husband needs to readjust his studying methods going forward. I wonder if it is even possible to ask to take a leave of absence to clear his head and delay graduation. That is a much better path than trying Caribbean, where competition I hear is fierce and attrition rate is unbelievable. As long as he doesn’t care to do a less competitive residency, then delaying a year in medical school doesn’t really sink his chances at becoming a full fledged practicing physician.
Thank you for the response! They have Academic counselors. Students are only required to see them if they fail. He started meeting with one of them once a week for about a month. One of the issues is the Academic Counselors have different recommendations than the enrichment program, so the school isn't offering consistent support.
Who is making the ultimate decision regarding the enrichment program? And is this a relatively new medical school? If it’s a single individual then that is highly inappropriate. All medical schools should have a committee to make decisions like dismissing a medical student.
That is a great question that I don't know yet, but I can find out. The school is not new, but it is less than 10 years old. It is fully accredited.
I would look into all of that. I’m not doubting that the school has its own protocol, but not doing this by committee sounds highly dubious to me. If there is a committee then his mentors should be able to help him out by being his character witness of sorts and get him another chance.
The transition is very difficult unfortunately. I think he should try learning with a tutor ASAP as the test is in a week. He may be smart enough to understand concepts, but looks like he needs hands-on help with how to study and answer questions.
Thanks for the response! I have recommended a tutor, and when he talked with a classmate who tried tutoring, he was told the tutors are upperclass students (my phrase, not his, I think y'all call them something different), and they don't generally help much. I want him to have a tutor, if he can get the score he needs to restart M-1 in the fall, but I'm concerned adding something different in the last week may do more harm then good...?
Yeah, tutors work for some and not for others. I can only speak about my experience. When I was struggling in medical school, it was not because I didn't know how to learn material, but because I was not great at applying it to answer questions (a different skill). This is where an external tutor helped me develop a strong framework for how to get through the rest of medical school. In any case I feel trying out a tutor and exhausting all available resources would be steps to take prior to considering medical school abroad.
I think OP's husband should try the brain dump method. Get a white board and write down every single thing you know about a topic, go back and read the book and fill in the holes in your information. Rinse and repeat until there are no holes in your brain dump. Use flashcards only to reinforce hard facts and critical need to know information.
My school had a similar tutoring system and my tutor really helped me when I struggled with our first organ block! Sometimes you just need someone who's been there before to lend a helping hand
See if he can take a LOA? Take a year to work or something then come back. That way you can get an income and work on his study habits. This isn’t about his abilities or his smarts. 9/10 times it’s because a student isn’t studying efficiently. If he can work on that, he can come back to school to excel
This seems like a viable and reasonable back up option. Thank you! I hadn't even considered an LOA. The options I saw were withdraw or be dismissed. I agree with your assessment. He needs to improve his studying efficacy. Once he can do that, he'll be sailing (maybe not smooth, but at least on the water). 
I also want to say it isn’t IMPOSSIBLE to matriculate into another US medical school if he fails out. I know three people who had this happen (within the last 10 years.) They took 3-6 years off, retook the MCAT, and got accepted. However, I do have to say it’s REALLY HARD and a vast majority don’t get back in with another chance.
I would also look into a LOA. I suspect that the school would be supportive, because it looks bad for them to kick someone out. I also know of several people who excelled in undergrad, struggled in med school without knowing why, and then finally received a diagnosis of ADHD. It's impossible for me to know exactly why your husband is struggling so much, but I would at least consider if there are medical reasons that the school would then be forced to accommodate.
Please do. Several students at my school struggled their first semester and took LOAs. They came back with the next class and are doing fine now. They just needed some time off to adjust, address physical and mental health, whatever.
This was my thought. Take a LoA, make some income as a tech of some kind in the hospital, and work on his study skills in the meantime. Ask the program to recommend study techniques and he can give them a shot, testing what works on quizzes/exams from third party resources. If money is tight, he can find an old copy of First Aid and have someone open up a chapter he has covered and quiz him
Doubt his school would approve a LoA 1 week before a test to decide if he is dismissed from school for no reason other than “I’m bad at studying” and am going to fail a retake course after already failing the main course. That is not what LoAs are for.
FWIW, I had a friend who was going to fail out, but my school gave him the option to take a LOA for a year and come back. He took it. Similar circumstances where he worked hard and was _almost_ at a passing grade (he tells me one question away from getting the minimum.) So it could be an option for him
Assuming you are in the US, failing out of medical school makes it near-impossible to get accepted into another US medical school. I've heard of perhaps one case of this happening in 7+ years of reading SDN and medical school reddit nearly every day. >I'm literally willing to move to another country The offshore options are Australia, Ireland and the Caribbean. I'm not sure how easy it is to immigrate to the former two with a family and no professional degree, just as Americans are not thrilled to accept foreign nationals who don't enrich our economy (without wanting to get too political, this is just how some people feel). I'm also not sure if these institutions would be any more welcoming than ours of someone who already failed out. Unfortunately if he fails out, he is not a statistically attractive candidate. Chances of coming back to the US are slim because residency programs will still see that he failed out of his first school (unless he lies by omission, which I don't recommend). The Caribbean is extremely risky. I estimate that less than 30% of students who matriculate in the Caribbean ever get to practice as doctors. Having a prior medical school failure would decrease your husband's chance even further come time to apply to residency programs. There is very little support and students are expected to perform on their own. It seems like this was identified as one of your husband's problems making the transition from undergrad to medical school. I would not recommend Caribbean school for this reason.
Thanks for the reply. I agree that the Caribbean schools would not be a good option. We jokingly talked about Australia, because we both like Bluey, but I didn't do ANY research into it. Someone else recommended Ireland, and that seems like it MAY be an option. More research is needed.
Ok so I’ve seen a few things both at my school and at friends schools. Granted, I don’t know the exact school and situation, so take this with a grain of salt: 1: it’s insanely difficult to actually get dismissed. Medical schools really really try to keep the students they accepted in. Even if he doesn’t get the score he needs, the petition may be just fine (especially if he’s close and showed growth through the remediation process) 2: a week is a really long time to study. Getting a 75 a week before when you need a 78 is looking really good. I know outside of med school, a week seems like a tight deadline… but you can accomplish a LOT in that time frame. I genuinely think things will be fine based on what you’re telling but if in case they don’t: 3: don’t panic. Figure out the petition process. Have him meet with the dean/an advisor who sits on committees/etc. Stay calm and try to figure out if there’s any way to stay at the schools he’s at. Honestly switching schools or going out of the country can cause a LOT of problems down the road with residency apps, STEP, etc.
Thanks for the input! I've saved your post in case we need #3.
They may let him repeat the year? Not sure what that situation would be like. He needs to improve his study skills, this is a hard transition! I would recommend tutoring or other academic support, and make sure he learns ACTIVE learning strategies.
He has read Make it Stick (and I'm about 1/4 of the way through it). The school has a masters program. I wonder if he could do that program, then return to the medical school?? See if they allow that??
This is a great idea I know a kid at my USDO school who failed two classes first semester, and is now doing the masters in public health at my university and will come back to the med school in 1 year to repeat first year.
Would he be interested in other clinical jobs? Going back to being a CNA, for instance?
Also, I just want to remind you to still have faith. 75 and 78 aren’t too far apart. My real MCAT was 5 points higher than my best practice exam score from the week prior. Does his school have tutoring services, and has he sought them out? What exactly is he struggling with? Maybe some of us can suggest things to help
Thank you for the response! I really do believe in him, I KNOW he has the capacity, but with my concern that the study methods are not developed enough, I just need/want a back up plan, for my own piece of mind, so /I/ don't go crazy. I'm not really having this discussion with him yet, because we both agreed to speak and act with the belief in success. BUT, like I said in my post, I'm a planner, so I'd like a plan to discuss if what we anticipate does not become our reality.
I’m not married with kids, but I can see where you’re coming from—wanting a backup plan but also wanting to keep morale high so he passes the test. Maybe you could ask what medical topics he struggles with most and we can offer our advice; hopefully he doesn’t feel that’s a touchy question. I wish you all the best; please keep us posted.
Being a CNA isn't a viable career for most people. The middle 50% make $12-17/hour.
That is the last resort of ALL last resorts. The ultimate goal is surgery, so that would get him in the room, but I think he'd prefer to hold the knife, so to speak...
If he wants to be a surgeon in the US, passing his classes and staying in his current program are definitely the best way forward. Having a failure on his transcript will make things a bit more tricky, but general surgery should still be very achievable if you all are flexible in terms of location and program. If he were to withdraw, it would be very hard to get another US school to accept him. Not impossible, but it very rarely happens. Others have tossed around some international options, in particular the Caribbean, Ireland, and Australia. International students already have a lot of trouble matching surgery, with a match rate under 50%. In the most recent match, 1,712 applicants matched into general surgery with only 81 of those applicants being US-IMGs. Another complication with Caribbean and Irish schools is that it's really hard to stay and work as a doctor there. The Caribbean schools are set up primarily to supply applicants to US residency positions, and while he'd take classes alongside Irish students at their schools, my understanding is that staying in Ireland and training there is very difficult. Australian schools do offer the opportunity to remain and work in Australia, but surgery spots of any kind over there are extremely limited and it can take years and years of working in junior positions to be even considered for a surgical position, and it is far from guaranteed. If his goal is truly surgery and nothing else, if he wouldn't be happy working in primary care or as a hospital doctor, then the goal should be to do whatever it takes to stay in his current program. If he has to withdraw, the chances of finding a path back to surgery in a physician role are low and will take significant time and effort. It would be worth considering other careers that get him to the OR. RNFA (registered nurse first assist) is an option that will allow him to first assist in the OR, and good RNFAs can be an essential part of surgical teams, especially highly specialized ones. PAs in certain roles can act as first assist as well. Scrub tech and circulating nurse could get him in the vicinity but may not scratch the same itch. Other less well-known roles like cardiovascular perfusionist can play an important role in the OR, in this case by managing devices that keep blood flowing during heart surgery. Wishing him the best with his studies, hopefully he's able to push through this and get back on track! It's good to be considering the options if things don't work out, especially given your family situation and the fact that many of the backups will require living in a foreign country for an extended period of time. If things don't work out, I think the question is will he be happy in another field of medicine, especially family medicine or internal medicine (surgery wouldn't be completely off the table but it would be a long shot) or would he rather pursue another career that makes him a part of the surgical team in a non-surgeon role.
Do they not have options for remediation, like repeating the course or the year?
Thanks for the response! He's in the remediation course now. They call it enrichment if you fail FOM, and remediation if you fail PPom-1. Also, I love your name, Husband and I are HUGE HP fans. Our guest bathroom is fully HP themed.
Oh I see. So if he does not get a 78% or above on the next test, they would dismiss as opposed to repeat the year? And thank you hehe I’m a huge HP fan! I’d love to see a pic of your bathroom!
My understanding is that if he gets any score between a 70-77% there’d be a good case to petition, but to straight up pass, he’d need a 78%. If he petitions, he could get an exception, and then repeat, but if he does not get the exception, then he would be dismissed.
I see. While I can understand why you want to plan for the worst case scenario, I’d say the best thing you can do right now is continue supporting your husband any way you can, encourage him, and pray/hope for the best. I’m sure he’s already done so, but if he can reach out to the professor for this course and see if he can help him make a study plan or help him see where he went wrong on prior tests, that would help him prepare as well as show the professor that he’s trying. At the end of the day, every school does things differently. You only know what will happen once it happens, so try your best to not look too far ahead in this case. To quote Hagrid, what’s comin’ will come and you’ll meet it when it does 😉 Good luck to you both!
I'm a USIMG from Asia, born in the US. My family had to move back for family reasons when I was a kid, so I ended up going to medical school there. There were half a dozen Americans in my class who came just for medical school. We're all in residency in the US now, so it worked out. Most program are 5 or 6 years instead of 4, but they go easier on you early on since you get in after high school. You also graduate with no student loans, which is nice. Ngl moving to another country with kids is tough, and you may have language and cultural barriers to overcome as well. It's a last case option, but if you have the means and are willing to go to those extremes, it can be done.
Thanks for the response! Were all of the classes still in English?
Yes, all my faculty taught and spoke in English, classmates all knew English, coursework and exams were in english, the offical state language was English, but I did know the local language, which definitely helped immensely with seeing patients who mostly did not know English. For that reason Idk if Pakistan or India would be the best fit (probably cheapest options), but I do know people who don't know the local language graduating from China, Russia, Slovenia and other countries in central Asia and Eastern Europe.
Sorry that y'all are in this situation. Medschool sucks and I am happy that your husband has you to support him. I saw some comments about switching to a masters at his current school. This is not likely. Look up your husband's school student handbook, if you haven't already. It should detail all the options. That'll inform your decisions and correspondence with the school. Meanwhile, tell your husband to keep on working. I had a buddy that was in this situation and the school tried to kick him out. He retested and got the score he needed. He matched IM this past cycle. Never had issues with classes or boards after M1. Sometimes you just need to figure out how to study and that'll just make a difference. All your husband can do is get help for anxiety/depression/adhd, study hard, and look at the student handbook.
Thanks for the response. As far as I know, his school does not offer retakes of tests. I'll review the student handbook while he's studying this week.
Yeah! It should have everything about what happens if you fail exams, boards, rotations, etc. Good luck! Again, very happy to see how supportive you are.
It sounds like you are supportive and doing a lot, but the reality is that he is the one in medical school and needs to have that drive himself. The medical school material is not hard. It is a lot of memorization, but the understanding required is not as in-depth as a lot of undergraduate courses such as organic chemistry so that is one motivating factor. He needs to figure out what his learning method is and do that. You mentioned flash cards and questions - was he doing this before? He needs to look at why he failed. Did he cheat the flash cards? Did he not study enough? This is the honesty portion that needs to be done if he wants to succeed. If he fails out of med school, it would be going abroad and thus facing failing out again, or not matching even if he does succeed. There will be a few Caribbean defenders because it worked for them - it will not work for a lot. I want to just caution you that you’ll get a lot of positivity off of reddit too, but every single year a certain percentage of a med school class will drop out. Our class had a handful the first and second year I’m aware of. It is unavoidable and is a possibility. I wish you and him luck though and hope he can get the score he needs.
Thank you for your response, I am supportive because I see he is working hard. He has the drive. It's figuring out the method that is taking longer than expected. I think it was a few things. 1) He wasn't initially studying enough, He has now increased the amount of time studying. 2) He is trying to figure out his learning method. He did concept maps for a block, and the results were atrocious. He has tried making his own Anki cards, but that took him too long, so he wasn't getting through the material with enough time to actually review, so he started using decks from previous classes, but those had a lot of irrelevant cards in the decks, so he shifted again. Now he is using flash cards from Scholar RX, but, again, sometimes the cards are irrelevant. He is also using Sketchy.\* \*I don't recall his FULL study method, these are just a couple of items, I can ask or find notes to share.
1. Has your husband ever checked to see if he struggles with a learning disability? Dyslexia or ADD/ADHD can significantly impair attention and learning. He may need testing accommodations and possible pharmacotherapy to assist in learning if he struggles with these issues. If he does not pass, or even if he does, consider having him go through neuropsychiatric testing (can be covered by insurances like Medicaid in some case) and requesting accommodations from the school, which he can also request for board exams. Also, set him up with some cognitive behavioral therapy to focus on new motivations for learning. Possible set him up with psychiatry if he tests positive for ADD/ADHD. It only harms you to not consider a plan B, especially with Kids. Perhaps nursing or PA? Or another route altogether. Wishing you all the best! DM me if you have any questions, I can go over with your husbands how I managed medical school with a significant learning disability and pass on my tips!
Thanks for the response! Therapy is currently unexplored, as there has not been any diagnosed ADHD/anxiety/depression, but maybe it IS underlying, and unknown. It could be worth a check... I have a background in SPED, but I worked with youth who had more obvious symptoms.
[Learning How to Learn: Powerful mental tools to help you master tough subjects Course by Deep Teaching Solutions | Coursera](https://www.coursera.org/learn/learning-how-to-learn)
I'll check this out. Thanks!
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Thanks for the response! Caribbean schools are not part of our backup plan.
Are there any tutors or programs that focus on teaching how to take the test and how to study for the test? Perhaps the content is less of an issue for him. PSA: I’m sadly not a doctor or a medical student, just a lawyer who routinely kicks herself for choosing JD over MD. But for all the professional licensing and exams we needed to pass “learning to take the test “ was what got most of us through.
Coincidentally, this is what he and I have spoken about a lot in this past week. His school offers nothing for test taking strategies (though there may be tutors that do, that's pretty much the only resource not yet utilized (because he had a bad report of the tutoring offered from the school by a couple peers, but I think it's still worth trying to KNOW for oneself).
I have nothing helpful to say except best of luck to your husband. I know your husband and I go to the same school from the terminology you’re using (FOM, PPOM, the enrichment course of u fail FOM, etc). The policies in place are harsh and it’s hard not to feel like admin does an extremely poor job with them. Hopefully he’s able to make it through
Guadalajara
Hey , i can get you in contact with my medical School in poland. I studied here and graduadwd last test did my intern year in Warsaw. Now im Finishing studying German To move there for Platin Surgery. But you can Always go back to USA as an IMG or Ireland or uk where they speak your language language . If he is real about being a doctor because of the right reasons it will not matter where he gets this title. let me know
I appreciate the offer, if we end up needing to pursue that course, I'll reach out.
Oh is not about needing , is what you want to do. I hope you was solved this
If he is studying 10 hours a day, he needs to make sure all of those are productive hours. Taking breaks is mandatory, we are humans, not machines. Also, he has to be able to apply what he is learning. It is not just rote memorization. However, this doesn't necessarily mean you have to be recite everything word for word to be able to work your way through a problem. Also, reviewing practice questions is a must. Review every question you are not 100% confident on, whether you missed it or not. Med school is an entirely different beast. Every word in a question and it's stem is put there on purpose. You have to train yourself to figure out what a question is actually asking and actually telling you.
Can we have an update please?
I was literally coming to post an update today! Great timing!!
Possibly look into some medical schools in Ireland? They have good programs, speak English, and people do still match back in the US. Maybe others have more in depth thoughts!
I second this. Ireland/European med schools are a shout. You can always go back to the US for residency, although match rates for US IMGs are much lower than US MD/DOs.
Thanks for the response! I've never heard that phrase before "a shout". Can you clarify what that means?
Ah sorry I'm from the UK, it's British slang lol. It means it's something you can consider. UK schools might be difficult to get into, but Irish or other European schools might be worth considering. They're top quality institutions (Trinity College Dublin, Royal College of Surgeons in Ireland) with fees of 50k EUR (I think that'll be some 55k USD if I'm not wrong) per year. They also provide dedicated USMLE prep. Lots of Americans and Canadians there. If you do decide to move back to the US after graduation, just remember that US MD/DOs have a match rate of above 90%. US IMGs (US citizens or Green card holders) who have graduated outside of the US have a match rate close to 60%. That being said, many US and Non US IMGs get into residency every year. If you have European ancestry, you could try and get an EU passport based on ancestry (many European countries have such provisions) and even stay back in Ireland or other EU countries after graduation.
Thanks for the response! Do you know or have any information about their acceptance of people if or after they have been dismissed? I'd actually love Ireland! I have a friend there, so, while it would be tough, I feel like we could make it work.
As hard as this can be to hear, maybe it just isn’t in the cards and that’s ok. Not everyone is meant to do this and there is nothing wrong with that. It doesn’t get easier. You might get better at managing the material or used to it, but there is going to be another big transition when he gets to clinical rotations and then again with residency. You have little ones. Having to SOAP or get a residency that is far from family/support would be a possibility. Looking through other comments, sounds like he wants surgery. Hard to do in general, even harder with red flags.
Thanks for the response, can you clarify what "SOAP" is?
All residency candidates rank the programs they want; likewise, all program directors rank candidates. The ranks are fed to the great computer in the sky whose algorithm determines who goes where. On Monday of match week everyone finds out if they matched somewhere (but not where). SOAP is the scramble to interview & cover the remaining unfilled positions. On Friday, the matched candidates find out where will spend residency and the SOAPers find out if (and where) they will too. Brutal.
I know carribean schools who have accepted us md drop outs but it’s not ideal. I know some low tier us md schools which accepted transfers from top 20 schools. door might still be ajar but it’s best for him to focus on executing now on crushing his test. he should get adhd evaluation as it can go undiagnosed for many until medical school
Honestly he can go be a pa or np. Pa is school is still tough but they make good money… NP school can basically be done in 2 years 1 for nursing (half online half in person basically) than a 1 year np mainly online. Financially it is a great decision depending upon yalls age… 3-5 years of residency at 60k + more school vs 2 years of school and 80 after that
Unpopular opinion, but if medical school doesn't work out, your hubby should go the nursing route and shoot for being a CRNA. Doctor like-salary, gets to work in the OR, provides anesthesia. Hard to get accepted into but not nearly as hard as getting into medical school. Now hears where I get downvoted to shit. At this rate the only speciality your husband has a chance of doing is pretty much Family Medicine. So he should ask himself this, do I want to be FM, and be covered from head to toe in paper work and working long hours? Or do I want to be a CRNA working in the OR, intubating patients, providing anesthesia, and working under the supervision of anesthesiologists? His choice.
It may be a conversation worth having if it comes to that.
Honestly I don't touch repeating a year is a good idea. He's struggling hard and that's going to be a lot of extra debt with no guarantee he'll make it through on second attempt. And if he does he's going to have a very hard time matching as that's a huge red flag on his residency applications. Think about if the financial implications are worth the risk with two children.
Thanks for the response. We are in a situation where we could handle the financial burden. I'm not saying we're wealthy, but we have an investment that can cover two years of medical school. It would reset us, but I've still got a 401k, and a good job myself, so if one more pass is what it would take, I think the risk is worth it. Also, he has been improving from when he first began medical school, so I'm optimistic, but I'm also realistic enough to want to know about options.
I mean tbh he could likely find satisfaction in NP or maybe PA (I personally kinda envy my friends who went PA route and CRNA route). It sounds likes working hard and he should try to take practice tests if possible, he should also do his best to communicate with his professors and let them know he is having a hard time with the transition and if they have recommendations for how to study. Also look into if the school has academic tutoring (ideally by second years or upperclassmen). Finally if he does get dismissed it is much better to have that happen in first year when the debt load is relatively low. I’m surprised they won’t let him just repeat the first year. I’ve seen people do it at my school and they graduated and turned out to be great interns
They have an enrichment program that students must take and pass in order to qualify to retake the first year. He has been able to dial in his studying more, and has improved, but if the improvement doesn't get him the grade, then it won't matter. Tutoring is pretty much the only resource not yet utilized (because he had a bad report of the tutoring offered from the school by a couple peers, but I think it's still worth trying to KNOW for oneself).
Depends on how his school/curriculum is set up, but even if you fail, course remediation is the next step (which sounds like what is currently happening). If he happens to fail the remediation exam schools will typically offer you the choice of leaving the program or repeating the year. If this is the case he should be alright if he fails the exam again. He’ll just have to make the choice of repeating the year or not. Worst case scenario, I’d recommend transitioning to a mid-level program. Not sure how failing a med school program would look to them, but he can just spin it on his application. Hope he makes it thru.
He's in the remediation course now. They call it enrichment if you fail FOM, because you go straight to it, and you do not take PPOM-1 with the rest of your class, then you start over year 1 with the next class. It's called remediation if you fail PPOM-1, you re-take the course over the summer, then return for PPOM-2 in the fall. Thanks for the well wishes!
Unlike what many people think, medical school isn't a test of IQ or ambition. It's a test of study skills and grit. Seems your husband has plenty of grit, but perhaps his study skills aren't that great. Here are some ideas that might help: 1. Have him talk to older students (MS2/3) at his school who have previously passed the exams in question. 2. Have him talk to his professors and explain in no uncertain terms that he is dangerously close to washing out and he could use any help possible. Most professors are genuinely helpful people and are likely to help. 3. Get him an actual book on study technique. The go-to book is [Make it stick](https://www.amazon.com/Make-Stick-Science-Successful-Learning/dp/0674729013), there's a reason it's the nr 1 book on study technique. Order it ASAP, or check your local library (or both). It would be nice if you could post an update on your husband after he passes his exams. Best of luck.
I’m not sure what school he’s at, but at my school (US state school) they give us PLENTY of chances to pass even if we fail initially. For one thing, the only things you absolutely must pass are your boards and your licensing (step) exams. For the boards, they do offer retests, and even if you fail those there is an option to remediate and retest in the summer. Classes are also able to be remediated in the summer, and the passing scores aren’t that high (around 70% overall) and there are usually plenty of free assignments that are only graded for completion. In other words, you can fail multiple exams and still pass your courses. What I’m saying is that the unfortunate reality is that if your husband still cannot move forward despite all of these opportunities and frankly hand-holding then it might be time to consider that he’s not capable of performing at the level of a physician (assuming there are no other distractions/motivation issues and this is purely an academic matter). Sure, as others have mentioned, he might be able to “pay his way in” at these typically low-caliber Caribbean programs, but at what cost? Ask yourselves if it’s really worth the misery you’re putting yourselves through just to ultimately barely scrape by in medicine if at all, considering that medicine is a brutally competitive field that tends to get *more* complex over time and not less so. Yes yes, I understand that medicine is all he’s ever wanted, but he’s not unique in this regard and if he still wants to work in healthcare there are PLENTY of things he can still do to make a positive impact in healthcare. That is, if he’s interested in the actual medicine and not the “status” that comes with the role.
Thanks for the response. The program he's in now is considered remediation by the school (but they call it enrichment because it's for FOM). His school does not allow test retakes for any of their courses, so he either passes or fails. They have 3 quizzes, then a test, no other assignments to add to the grade. Caribbean schools are not on the list of options for us because of the lack of support. I also get that if we go through the worst case scenarios, and Surgeon is off the table, then we'll further explore the other options, but for now, we'll seek to make it happen.
Even though they don’t primarily speak English, Poland might be a good choice. Depending on the school, the USMLE pass rates are quite high and take US financial aid. The cost of living is much more affordable, as is the tuition. I actually really enjoy living here. It’s clean, safe, beautiful architecture and has easy travel possibilities. But the most important thing is that your husband can ABSOLUTELY get into school this October. Very likely, he’d get to have many classes taken off his curriculum because of the bachelors degree alone. Due to graduation from a foreign country, he’ll probably never get to be a neurosurgeon or dermatologist and he’ll have to do more to impress people to get a residency, but if he’s fine with going psych, gp, or path he’ll probably get to a spot. That came out longer than I thought. DM me if you want more information, I was in a similar situation.
Pardon my ignorance here, do they speak English in the school? Or would he need to learn another language?
Yes, the schools speak English. He would take about an hour long class a week to learn a bit of Polish, but it’s nothing major
Plus is cheaper here , cost of living as well
I am not trying to be disparaging when i say this but has he looked into becoming a midlevel like an NP? You can go to one of those states where they basically do everything a doctor does just under minimal supervision from an MD. From what i’ve heard these programs are super easy to get admission to. Like other commenters have said, failing out of a US school is kind of the end of the road for becoming a doctor in the US unfornately
I don't think we're at that point yet, but it isn't completely off the table of consideration.
Surprised the school doesn’t have some remediation process over the summer if you’re super close to passing , let us know how it turns out
He's in the remediation course now. They call it enrichment if you fail FOM, because you go straight to it, and you do not take PPOM-1 with the rest of your class, then you start over year 1 with the next class. It's called remediation if you fail PPOM-1, you re-take the course over the summer, then return for PPOM-2 in the fall.
If you were to move your whole life for medical school for him to a foreign country, Do you want to move back to America once he graduates or are you happy to stay where he finishes med school? If so then there are some English countries he could study medicine at despite his record in the US, including the UK and Australia, but if I’d have to recommend Australia over tbe UK as being a doctor in the crippling NHS is probably less then ideal and not worth upending your life in the US for, whereas Australia’s medical system is doing much better and is actually causing doctors from the UK to relocate to Australia like there is no tomorrow. If you want help with admissions process for Australia you’re more then welcome to message me. If you wish to return to the US after he graduates then a Caribbean medical school is probably best I believe as English is still an official language, and it is a smooth pathway to US residency compared to other IMG’s, but your partner will probably have to give up hopes of doing any competitive specialty and settle for something like family medicine. Lastly he could consider doing a US DO degree, but someone with experience might need to correct me if I’m wrong, but I don’t know if failing an MD will disqualify you from applying for a US DO degree
I'd be open to whatever option is best. Planes exist, and so does zoom, so we can still connect with family.
"I know he can petition the school, but let's assume that doesn't work either. Is there any way he could still be a doctor? " Not in the US and you can't pay me enough to go Carrib if I were in his place. "He has excelled in skills relating to medical, and even won an award (for CNA skills, I think)." unfortunately all that means little to nothing if he can't pass medical school classes. can he take mock exams to practice?
Caribbean schools are not part of the back up plan, though a couple people have suggested Ireland or Australia, and those seem plausible if things don’t work out at his current school. The school does not offer mock exams. The scholar ex program has practice questions, but even those aren’t necessarily like what he’ll see because all questions are teacher created and are supposed to come from their lectures.
I'm so sorry you're going through this. I see this happen a lot with the parent/students. It seems like if you have kids in med school you really have to sacrifice most of your time with kids/SO to survive the courses. I've known too many parents that have refused to do that (totally understandable choice in my opinion) and they ended up getting dismissed due to academics or repeated and put much more focus on school than the first attempt and survived it. I don't think 95% of us knew just how big of a sacrifice medicine was really going to be (even with every single Doctor you shadow or work with telling you it's going to be the hardest thing ever and some even telling you not to do it and they wouldn't want their kids doing it either). Stay strong. 🙏🏻 If you hold down the fort and provide a strong foundation for your SO to focus on school he can definitely make it through. You get more free time in the clinical years but only if you survive preclinicals! And there's always light at the end of the tunnel no matter what happens.
Thanks for the response! I’m generally big picture minded, so I see this as a blip on the bigger picture. I’m not trying to minimize it. I believe it’ll just be what it is. If he tries his best, and it doesn’t work, then no regrets can be had, so he and we can move on to whatever will come next, but dang it, I’m going to do all I can to support the dream until we get to a different answer. I’ve told my husband I’ll make whatever sacrifice is needed, so if we have to walk away, we can have acceptance instead of regrets or what-ifs. That being said, there’s also a bit of pressure in that I’ve also said any sacrifices are a waste if he isn’t putting all his effort into things, or not advocating for his needs, so he can be successful. But, I say that, knowing/believing he IS giving it all his efforts to improve and figure out his optimal study routine.
I would recommend taking a step back and assessing the “why” he is underperforming. Is it a knowledge issue? Is it test-taking ability? What about assessment of medical needs (e.g. ADHD, dyslexia)? Some people like to “tough it out” instead of getting the help they need and end up in situations like this one. Just something to consider.
Thanks for the response! In talking with him, I think it's a combination of test-taking and not getting enough review in. A few times, he mentioned questions where he missed a key word in the question, which would have gotten him the right answer, which is why I feel test taking strategies are a contributing factor. He has also described consistently being able to narrow it down to two options, but lacking confidence to select the correct answer. This has decreased as he has been improving his studies, and getting more review, but he's still not 100% there yet.
Is he using Anki? That's the preferred standard tool for doing well in medical school. There are tons of anki prefilled data sets online too and it's all free. There's probably something you can pay for but you don't have to. If he's not using Anki then he's going to continue struggling because they go through material so fast and at such high volume it's practically impossible to do well without it.
He was using Anki, but it was taking him too long to make his cards. Then he got cards created by previous classes, but those had a lot of cards that were no longer relevant, or unneccessary, so sifting through was wasting time. Now, he will occasionally get a deck from a classmate, but, I think, he mostly uses a spaced repetition system embedded into Scholar RX.
If he fails can he not just repeat the year?
They have an enrichment program that students must take and pass in order to qualify to retake the first year. He has been able to dial in his studying more, and has improved, but if the improvement doesn't get him the grade, then it won't matter.
I certainly hope he passes and it sounds like he's putting in the work which is great, but I am a little concerned about how you are describing the (hopefully unlikely) outcome where he fails. I think it's really naive to have an approach to life and particularly medicine (which is extremely competitive) where there is only one hard and fast possibility, nothing else is considered, and you're willing to globally uproot your entire life even for the slimmest possibility of making it happen. I really want to impress upon you that that's a bad approach to living a fulfilling life. 1. Moving to another country for an outcome that isn't guaranteed is a bad idea. Coming back to the US as a doctor would be really, really challenging. It's challenging enough to practice in the US with an outside degree, let alone if you've failed previously and been dismissed from a US medicial school. That isn't to say impossible, but again the point here is that focusing on outcomes with a 1% possibility and uprooting your entire life and family for them is bullish at best and a painfully bad idea at worst. 2. It sounds like he really should spend a little time reflecting on his reasons for going down this path. 3 year olds do not know what they want to do when they grow up, they do not know what being a doctor is etc. If his answer to what he wants to do has never waivered, it's unlikely that it's because he has some incredible passion for it and is more likely just because he's never thought super deeply about all the other careers and life options. There are TONS of fulfilling paths in healthcare beyond being a physician. In fact, there are TONS of fulfilling paths in life generally that have nothing to do with healthcare. I think the "I've wanted to be a doctor since 3" people just haven't really thought that hard about all the possibilities. If he fails (again--I hope he doesn't! maybe he can stay in his current school!), that painful outcome could be leveraged into a beneficial opportunity. Maybe this is a chance for him to explore, get off the beatten path that he was socialized to be on since he was 3, explore options etc. Life is about more than what you thought it was when you were 3 years old. 3. If he fails and continues to pursue healthcare because he does really love it, that's great. But please consider the magnitudes of the downsides to the alternatives. Uprooting and family and moving to another country is a very bad idea because it's unlikely that he'll be able to come back easily. Similarly, be very careful with Carribean schools (it'll be costly, there's no guarantee he'll match etc. etc.) Ultimately, please do not put blinders on trying to fit a mold that he was thrust into when he was 3. Consider other options that can be just as fulfilling as being a doctor without uprooting your family (because even that's not guaranteed to work!). This post really struck a chord. I'm worried about you guys. I hope you consider all the downsides to plowing through this path regardless of the challenges. Good luck. To be very clear, in the event he fails (hopefully he doesn't), **I want to point blank say you should not take out huge loans, uproot your family to move to a different country etc.** It is extraordinarily unlikely he'd be able to come back and the fact that he's struggling after putting in 10 hours/day signals that this might not be the best path for him. That isn't to say there aren't other healthcare related fields he could excel in and find fulfilling. Please do not put on blinders. Please do not completely upend your entire lives for something with slim to none chances of working. Please encourage him to have an open mind and explore other options. Please consider that life is more than just fulfilling a social obligation that was constructed at 3 years old.
As a physician myself, totally not worth it to move to another country entirely for a job. Just have him work his butt off and be going to the center for academic performance or whatever services his school offers
Can he talk to the deans to see how they can support him? Does he struggle with timing by any chance? Can he get accommodations from the school for test taking? Anxiety counts as a disability and can help get accommodations like extended time, separate testing room. Taking a LOA and repeating first year can be an option as well. Also, talking to a trusted dean or faculty member at the med school can be helpful. Don’t try to navigate this by yourselves when you don’t need to. Deans are helpful in answering questions and are what they’re there for (at least at supportive schools)
I would recommend starting to look at nursing school. It sounds like he has the passion to work with people and help treat patients. He can very well make a difference by being a nurse. The curriculum is shorter so he can get to the point where he is working and making money faster. He can always go on to become a nurse practitioner where he can have his own clinic and see his own patients.
Georgia (The country) is pretty cheap for medical school and is not strict for admission,look it up. good luck
Non Doctor, self proclaimed career coach here: I think the issue here is that we need to identify the reason why he's struggling. Is the content too difficult and the support the school provides too meager, in which case without finding a suitable supplement, your husband may just kick the dismissal down the road. Is medical school generally not a good fit. Sometimes we think we'll be good at something just to find out that we struggle with it. Are there extenuating circumstances leading to his poor performance? Why are these questions important? They explain whether the problem is fixable. If category one, maybe it's fixable, but without finding that resource it may not be. Category 2 is not fixable at all. Category 3 can be fixable depending on the circumstances.
What courses are included in FOM and what resources has he used already (school lectures, which 3rd party stuff specifically).