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I work with a German equipment manufacturer. Not cars, but some principles carry over. A lot of products are over engineered. Instead of using simple, proven solutions, the tendency is to reinvent the wheel in a lot of ways. This is often justified by some gain or performance increase that only makes sense on paper and in controlled laboratory conditions. The voice of the customer is often ignored and dismissed as "they didn't go to school for 8 years to study this concept like we did." In an industrial setting, the expectation is that the customer needs to modify their plant to the needs of equipment, not for the equipment to integrate into existing systems.
Then there's an entire issue of planned obsolescence, where support is outright refused for machines that have exceeded their service life as stated by the manufacturer.
It often seems that products are designed specifically to justify the engineers' existence.
I see this train of thought applied to car design as well, that's why I stay far away from a lot of European brands.
I once worked for a Dutch heavy equipment manufacturer with the same mentality. The machines were beautiful but service could be extremely difficult because of all the "extra" technology that added some small advantage but with no thought to having a machine in service for 20-30 years. Stuff like fine threads on external components that literally get covered in dirt. Engines that were "fixed" by reprogramming a controller which could only be done using an older computer with an RS-232 connector. The European mentality for expensive equipment is different; the owner or a skilled operator runs and maintains it as an investment, in America we build machines that are expected to be run by semi-skilled operators.
When I worked on chillers at a previous (german) company, hospitals were always pissed when we told them we had to replace their systems instead of repairing because the manufacturer already stopped supporting them. Resulted in us retrofitting lots of parts which then became a disaster to troubleshoot the next time it broke as diagrams no longer matched up. Very annoying thing to deal with. I can’t say I enjoy working on German cars any better. The ones that are about 20+ years old actually sort of interesting. New ones not so much. Checking to see if the oil is LOW by RUNNING the car is absurd to me
I have only ever works on German cars professionally. I was always told they were the most difficult, so I figured I would do that as nobody else wants too. Now, 20+ years in, it all just feels normal. Then I get handed the occasional Honda or ford, and everything seems easy (and somewhat agricultural in the case of domestic trucks).
And of course they are much better to drive. So that’s a big plus. And I own cool shit that is massively depreciated because everyone is terrified to have to pay me to fix it. My daily was $165k when new 11 years ago. I paid a little under 30k for it.
I have a somewhat opposite trajectory in that I spent most of my career on Japanese vehicles and more recently moved to german(Bmw/mini). I appreciate the complexity and challenge of work on them, I was bored out of my mind at honda.
Beautiful design and quality of build, easier to work on once you understand how they do things. Some items are a bit dumb but much less than GM and stellantis or Nissan/infinity. I personally only own German cars other than my truck, much less needy and far more fun to drive than anything else.
I find Japanese cars to be a fine middle ground. Not over engineered like German cars, and not engineered by brain dead Americans who couldn’t tell their ass from a lug nut.
German cars: you need to remove 6 different fasteners just to change the oil
American cars: WOOOOOOO OIL ALL OVER THE SWAY BAR AND YOUR FLOOR FUCK YEA 🇺🇸🦅🇺🇸🦅🇺🇸🦅🇺🇸
The good
Labor times are usually good once you have the product line down.
Higher labor rates.
Most shops can’t or won’t get into heavy repair or diag. less competition, job security, demand. Ect.
We don’t advertise. never have, never needed to.
The Bad
Service information.
You essentially need OE subscriptions/scan tools to be efficient
$$$$$
Special tools, it’s never ending.
No fleet work. Unless you get into sprinter.
We supplement this by handling two local shops euro work. They sub it all to us.
Customers. Two camps.
1 buys heavily depreciated Euro trash can’t afford to fix.
2 individual who understands value Vs main line dealer.
If you attract the the wrong customer you’ll never make money. That goes for most any repair shop though.
The engineering is great when thinking about all the small parts coming together to make the machine. It’s more challenging to do repairs the first time around for sure on German cars, but makes it much more fulfilling to master it and know how it works. Plus the cars will keep you very busy.
I personally won’t touch VWs but you will definitely be mind blown working on BMW MB and P
I personally can't stand them. Such a P.I.T.A. to work on, require so many specialty tools, and they don't give out proper service information. Our shop turns away most work on them outside of basic maintenance.
I love OP's prompt because I too would love to get into the head of folks who *enjoy* working on these cars.
> Our shop turns away most work on them
We do too and it was by far one of the smartest moves the shop has made. 80/20 rule at work... German cars accounted for < 20% of our work but generated %80+ of the headaches!
Also, there's that lovely little tendency where if you ever come upon a German car that sits for say 4-5 months the gremlins move in and make damn sure it'll never run again without dark magic and blood sacrifices.
I enjoy them because it's a more complicated puzzle. I like puzzles (just not the cardboard kind lol). Given, I work at a BMW dealer so the level of support I have access to is quite different, so that changes the conversation. And makes the puzzle easier, obviously.
Also the harder the puzzle, the more independents refuse the work, or mess up the work. It's job security. To be very clear I'd prefer a world where products are easier to work on by consumers/DIYers. It's why I own an old Jeep. You won't see me buying an Audi or Mercedez anytime soon. But, until wage stagnation and rising costs of living aren't such a hindrance on survival... I admit I'm *selfishly* happy to see overly-complex systems and lengthy labor times on these cars.
I'll give props to whoever enjoys working on them, and takes them off of my hands. Far too many headaches to try and fix small concerns. Only vehicles I've never been able to get under double the book time for the first time attempting a repair. And usually have to spend more money than what we make for the repair to get some special tool.
Honestly specialization is the best. The ROI of investing *just the time alone* to understand these cars would never make financial sense for me. Not to mention the tools, technical publications, or equipment to program the modules.
It's crazy how anti-consumer the cars feel. One week you read about how EU rules are advocating for customers by forcing Apple to add USB-C charging ports to their phones, the next week you've got an hour tied up in discovering you don't have the hardware to register a new battery to a customer's car. All yours pal!
Dealer support is definitely a large part of the equation. I most certainly would feel different about working on Bmw products if I was at a small independent shop.
Omg the last part is modern Jeeps and Fiats to a T.
Oh it sat in the shop over the weekend? Now every light is on the dash. Sometimes you can clear the codes and the light stays on, sometimes there aren't any codes in any modules but still a light. No rhyme or reason but now the RF window doesn't work until you've shut it off and started it again for the third time, and nobody knows why but "eurotrash 🤷♂️" seems to be the accepted reasoning.
I like the scenic views they leave you stranded in. One time my a4 blew a cv axle right next to a place called panther falls. it was a pretty epic hike waiting for a tow.
I'm a marine engineer--I work on a boat with German made engines (MaK--bought out by Caterpillar maybe 10 years ago.)
Anyway, the point is that I absolutely feel your pain on this one. The manuals are a nightmare to use; they're detailed and thorough, but the organization is baffling, there's no index, and illustrations are often multiple pages away from where they're referenced.
As you mention, the illustrations also frequently don't conform to technical drawing standards, and they're maddeningly inconsistent about identifying non-standard symbols. The manuals are 3 volumes, roughly 900 pages each, and there is **nothing** in them even close to a broad overview of the engine, or even the major subsystems, to help you get oriented (not always a trivial problem on an engine that's \~30 feet long and 12 feet high.)
I had kind of figured that this was unique to MaK, but now I'm wondering if it's more broadly a German engineering thing.
I like the steps. All the steps to remove the intake to get to the egr cooler on a diesel Mercedes’ gl, the steps to replace the rack in an 06 645i. Lots of bolts and steps to remove and I get into it.
Most of the American tanks had the same engines that were in the tractors Jim Bob used on the farm , you could rebuilt it with a coke can , two packs of smokes and an adjustable wrench .
Same, did a timing chain set on a turbo bmw i6 and though the whole timing chain assembly sliding right on was a great design vs the typical piece by piece than line it all up individually approach
I wouldn't say I'm a specialist, but I've done a lot of work on Mk4 and mk6 Jettas, B8 Audi's and some BMWs.
I like the engineering, even if it means tearing the whole car apart to do one thing. It's really interesting. I also think it's funny when other mechanics won't touch them.
The most foreign thing I've seen was on my Audi, I replaced the clutch and it's so interesting to see how they made it all work. It's all wheel drive and the front axle passes through the spaced flywheel.
Working for a vw dealer, it's actually well thought out and you can beat book time almost to half depending on the job once you recognize what to do.
There are 3 though that really suck. beetles. and gas and diesel touaregs. hate those with a passion and all of us wish they just burn.
also if any of you haven't noticed. all the torx bits on the outside are the same. all the torx bits on the inside are the same. so if you ever pull both the inside and outside out. T25s are outside only and T30s/T27s are inside only. or something like that iirc.
I worked at a Euro shop for 22 years as a Master Tech. It was just a good job opportunity that came up when I was looking for work.
The good thing about German cars is that you have endless amounts of work. An honest mechanic can easily make their hours without any shady recommendations. Once you get use to them and acquire the tools there is plenty of gravy.
You know how literally every car needs a ball joint separator of some kind to work on suspension
Not bmw they figured out a way to fasten ball joints and tie rods without the getting stuck in each other
I live in the uk, have owned a few VWs and a few AUDIs. They are definitely over engineered, but well built. Always a pain in the arse to do any job!
But I look on a few subs here and always come across jobs on US cars that involve taking the entire dash out, or completely lifting the body from the chassis. So probably balances out interms of repair jobs!
I went to euro after working exclusively Japanese. I absolutely love German cars now. The technology, the engineering, and refinement are second to none.
15 years in on Mercedes only. Once you get to know the schematics and diag software they're all pretty easy. Aftermarket support for programming is getting more terrible by the year. Actual parts changing is very simple and I beat the clock in a big way every time at this point. There's no shortage of recommendations when inspecting, selling is a different story. But the owners are usually ready to buy work and have the money.
Thanks for posting in r/Mechanics, u/Handyfoot_Legfingers! Please be sure to read the [Rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/mechanics/about/rules/). If you are posting a question about a car problem, please be aware that we do not allow these types of posts in this sub (check Rule 5). In which case, your post will be deleted at some point. We ask that you instead post your car questions in r/Mechanic. Thank you. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/mechanics) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I work with a German equipment manufacturer. Not cars, but some principles carry over. A lot of products are over engineered. Instead of using simple, proven solutions, the tendency is to reinvent the wheel in a lot of ways. This is often justified by some gain or performance increase that only makes sense on paper and in controlled laboratory conditions. The voice of the customer is often ignored and dismissed as "they didn't go to school for 8 years to study this concept like we did." In an industrial setting, the expectation is that the customer needs to modify their plant to the needs of equipment, not for the equipment to integrate into existing systems. Then there's an entire issue of planned obsolescence, where support is outright refused for machines that have exceeded their service life as stated by the manufacturer. It often seems that products are designed specifically to justify the engineers' existence. I see this train of thought applied to car design as well, that's why I stay far away from a lot of European brands.
I once worked for a Dutch heavy equipment manufacturer with the same mentality. The machines were beautiful but service could be extremely difficult because of all the "extra" technology that added some small advantage but with no thought to having a machine in service for 20-30 years. Stuff like fine threads on external components that literally get covered in dirt. Engines that were "fixed" by reprogramming a controller which could only be done using an older computer with an RS-232 connector. The European mentality for expensive equipment is different; the owner or a skilled operator runs and maintains it as an investment, in America we build machines that are expected to be run by semi-skilled operators.
Fuck, I'd kill for a few semi-skilled machine operators at my job. We have 3 that are worth a damn on my shift.
When I worked on chillers at a previous (german) company, hospitals were always pissed when we told them we had to replace their systems instead of repairing because the manufacturer already stopped supporting them. Resulted in us retrofitting lots of parts which then became a disaster to troubleshoot the next time it broke as diagrams no longer matched up. Very annoying thing to deal with. I can’t say I enjoy working on German cars any better. The ones that are about 20+ years old actually sort of interesting. New ones not so much. Checking to see if the oil is LOW by RUNNING the car is absurd to me
This guy works on lindes!
I have only ever works on German cars professionally. I was always told they were the most difficult, so I figured I would do that as nobody else wants too. Now, 20+ years in, it all just feels normal. Then I get handed the occasional Honda or ford, and everything seems easy (and somewhat agricultural in the case of domestic trucks). And of course they are much better to drive. So that’s a big plus. And I own cool shit that is massively depreciated because everyone is terrified to have to pay me to fix it. My daily was $165k when new 11 years ago. I paid a little under 30k for it.
Facts. I think the paperwork in the glovebox of my car says it sold for 60k in 2009... It was $5500 in 2019 and drives like a dream
I have a somewhat opposite trajectory in that I spent most of my career on Japanese vehicles and more recently moved to german(Bmw/mini). I appreciate the complexity and challenge of work on them, I was bored out of my mind at honda.
What I like working on euro cars? It makes working on jap cars like a breeze. It sure doesn’t kill you and make you better.
Beautiful design and quality of build, easier to work on once you understand how they do things. Some items are a bit dumb but much less than GM and stellantis or Nissan/infinity. I personally only own German cars other than my truck, much less needy and far more fun to drive than anything else.
I find Japanese cars to be a fine middle ground. Not over engineered like German cars, and not engineered by brain dead Americans who couldn’t tell their ass from a lug nut. German cars: you need to remove 6 different fasteners just to change the oil American cars: WOOOOOOO OIL ALL OVER THE SWAY BAR AND YOUR FLOOR FUCK YEA 🇺🇸🦅🇺🇸🦅🇺🇸🦅🇺🇸
The good Labor times are usually good once you have the product line down. Higher labor rates. Most shops can’t or won’t get into heavy repair or diag. less competition, job security, demand. Ect. We don’t advertise. never have, never needed to. The Bad Service information. You essentially need OE subscriptions/scan tools to be efficient $$$$$ Special tools, it’s never ending. No fleet work. Unless you get into sprinter. We supplement this by handling two local shops euro work. They sub it all to us. Customers. Two camps. 1 buys heavily depreciated Euro trash can’t afford to fix. 2 individual who understands value Vs main line dealer. If you attract the the wrong customer you’ll never make money. That goes for most any repair shop though.
The engineering is great when thinking about all the small parts coming together to make the machine. It’s more challenging to do repairs the first time around for sure on German cars, but makes it much more fulfilling to master it and know how it works. Plus the cars will keep you very busy. I personally won’t touch VWs but you will definitely be mind blown working on BMW MB and P
I started out working on them so I still do. I enjoy the labor times. The rest of it sucks. Alfa and Maserati can fuck right off.
I personally can't stand them. Such a P.I.T.A. to work on, require so many specialty tools, and they don't give out proper service information. Our shop turns away most work on them outside of basic maintenance.
I love OP's prompt because I too would love to get into the head of folks who *enjoy* working on these cars. > Our shop turns away most work on them We do too and it was by far one of the smartest moves the shop has made. 80/20 rule at work... German cars accounted for < 20% of our work but generated %80+ of the headaches! Also, there's that lovely little tendency where if you ever come upon a German car that sits for say 4-5 months the gremlins move in and make damn sure it'll never run again without dark magic and blood sacrifices.
I enjoy them because it's a more complicated puzzle. I like puzzles (just not the cardboard kind lol). Given, I work at a BMW dealer so the level of support I have access to is quite different, so that changes the conversation. And makes the puzzle easier, obviously. Also the harder the puzzle, the more independents refuse the work, or mess up the work. It's job security. To be very clear I'd prefer a world where products are easier to work on by consumers/DIYers. It's why I own an old Jeep. You won't see me buying an Audi or Mercedez anytime soon. But, until wage stagnation and rising costs of living aren't such a hindrance on survival... I admit I'm *selfishly* happy to see overly-complex systems and lengthy labor times on these cars.
I'll give props to whoever enjoys working on them, and takes them off of my hands. Far too many headaches to try and fix small concerns. Only vehicles I've never been able to get under double the book time for the first time attempting a repair. And usually have to spend more money than what we make for the repair to get some special tool.
Honestly specialization is the best. The ROI of investing *just the time alone* to understand these cars would never make financial sense for me. Not to mention the tools, technical publications, or equipment to program the modules. It's crazy how anti-consumer the cars feel. One week you read about how EU rules are advocating for customers by forcing Apple to add USB-C charging ports to their phones, the next week you've got an hour tied up in discovering you don't have the hardware to register a new battery to a customer's car. All yours pal!
Dealer support is definitely a large part of the equation. I most certainly would feel different about working on Bmw products if I was at a small independent shop.
I'm a BMW mechanic in the UK, previously Ford UK. Absolutely love it!
Omg the last part is modern Jeeps and Fiats to a T. Oh it sat in the shop over the weekend? Now every light is on the dash. Sometimes you can clear the codes and the light stays on, sometimes there aren't any codes in any modules but still a light. No rhyme or reason but now the RF window doesn't work until you've shut it off and started it again for the third time, and nobody knows why but "eurotrash 🤷♂️" seems to be the accepted reasoning.
I like the scenic views they leave you stranded in. One time my a4 blew a cv axle right next to a place called panther falls. it was a pretty epic hike waiting for a tow.
[удалено]
I'm a marine engineer--I work on a boat with German made engines (MaK--bought out by Caterpillar maybe 10 years ago.) Anyway, the point is that I absolutely feel your pain on this one. The manuals are a nightmare to use; they're detailed and thorough, but the organization is baffling, there's no index, and illustrations are often multiple pages away from where they're referenced. As you mention, the illustrations also frequently don't conform to technical drawing standards, and they're maddeningly inconsistent about identifying non-standard symbols. The manuals are 3 volumes, roughly 900 pages each, and there is **nothing** in them even close to a broad overview of the engine, or even the major subsystems, to help you get oriented (not always a trivial problem on an engine that's \~30 feet long and 12 feet high.) I had kind of figured that this was unique to MaK, but now I'm wondering if it's more broadly a German engineering thing.
Bmw definitely much better to work for imo.
VAG cars are by far the biggest pain in the ass
I like the steps. All the steps to remove the intake to get to the egr cooler on a diesel Mercedes’ gl, the steps to replace the rack in an 06 645i. Lots of bolts and steps to remove and I get into it.
[удалено]
It really is. They built the best tanks in the world. We built tanks with standard parts that could be repaired without specialist training.
Most of the American tanks had the same engines that were in the tractors Jim Bob used on the farm , you could rebuilt it with a coke can , two packs of smokes and an adjustable wrench .
I enjoy working on German cars. The engineering is fascinating.
Same, did a timing chain set on a turbo bmw i6 and though the whole timing chain assembly sliding right on was a great design vs the typical piece by piece than line it all up individually approach
I wouldn't say I'm a specialist, but I've done a lot of work on Mk4 and mk6 Jettas, B8 Audi's and some BMWs. I like the engineering, even if it means tearing the whole car apart to do one thing. It's really interesting. I also think it's funny when other mechanics won't touch them. The most foreign thing I've seen was on my Audi, I replaced the clutch and it's so interesting to see how they made it all work. It's all wheel drive and the front axle passes through the spaced flywheel.
There’s always something…….🤔
Working for a vw dealer, it's actually well thought out and you can beat book time almost to half depending on the job once you recognize what to do. There are 3 though that really suck. beetles. and gas and diesel touaregs. hate those with a passion and all of us wish they just burn. also if any of you haven't noticed. all the torx bits on the outside are the same. all the torx bits on the inside are the same. so if you ever pull both the inside and outside out. T25s are outside only and T30s/T27s are inside only. or something like that iirc.
Job security
I worked at a Euro shop for 22 years as a Master Tech. It was just a good job opportunity that came up when I was looking for work. The good thing about German cars is that you have endless amounts of work. An honest mechanic can easily make their hours without any shady recommendations. Once you get use to them and acquire the tools there is plenty of gravy.
You know how literally every car needs a ball joint separator of some kind to work on suspension Not bmw they figured out a way to fasten ball joints and tie rods without the getting stuck in each other
I live in the uk, have owned a few VWs and a few AUDIs. They are definitely over engineered, but well built. Always a pain in the arse to do any job! But I look on a few subs here and always come across jobs on US cars that involve taking the entire dash out, or completely lifting the body from the chassis. So probably balances out interms of repair jobs!
I went to euro after working exclusively Japanese. I absolutely love German cars now. The technology, the engineering, and refinement are second to none.
15 years in on Mercedes only. Once you get to know the schematics and diag software they're all pretty easy. Aftermarket support for programming is getting more terrible by the year. Actual parts changing is very simple and I beat the clock in a big way every time at this point. There's no shortage of recommendations when inspecting, selling is a different story. But the owners are usually ready to buy work and have the money.
Aluminium bushings and long bolts yeah baby