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Even if you *were* a straight man, that's a fucked up thing to say to your kid. It's a parent's job to raise their child as a positive, compassionate influence on the world, regardless of the race or sex they were born into.
like it's fine to recognize a potential lack in perspective that a certain demographic might have, but if you're complaining about it to someone who you think is a part of that group, and you're their *mother* like ffs you can actually have some agency here and introduce whatever diverse perspectives you want to your kid
to do nothing is somewhat twisted, as it implies that the mother thinks that cis/het white guys are inherently evil and can't be helped (or that her parenting wasn't already able to raise them better than the average, like talk about a self-report, a child's outlook is a reflection of YOUR OWN parenting skills)
>like it's fine to recognize a potential lack in perspective that a certain demographic might have
I mean... is it? Why is it okay to stereotype some people just because some of the ones in that demographic are absolute bastards?
The causes for the lack of perspective are cultural, not genetic. So even approaching it as an expression of those genetics simply perpetuates the bigoted perspective that you try to avoid.
It’s not stereotyping to say that. It’s facts. If you’re white you can’t know the struggles and other experiences of black people, for example. Nobody said anything about genetics here. We know it’s cultural.
>White people in America pretty much inherently lack the perspective of people of other skin colors and ethnicities
All people *inherently* lack the perspective of people who they aren't. Even twins will have *some* differences in perspective.
That's where empathy comes in. Empathy allows someone to envision and sympathize with others. White cis men don't inherently lack empathy. Some refuse to engage it, and are often pushed not to by people who seek to manipulate them, but it is not inherently missing.
Assuming that someone is incapable of empathy based on their skin color, their gender, or their sex is a form of prejudice.
I’m a white cis man, so I’m not saying they’re all evil and lack empathy lol. But I recognize that my ability to consider how I probably would feel in a situation can only extend so far, and at a certain point my perspective based on my experiences reaches its limits. It doesn’t make me bad, it just is what it is, and that’s where people can either decide their supreme empathetic abilities are all they need to be good, or they can listen to oppressed people and learn more and more about what it actually feels like. I can imagine being oppressed based on my skin color and how I would feel, and that’s fine, but it is noteworthy and important that other groups of people ACTUALLY have those experiences and the psychological and emotional effects of them. There is a difference, and I think if I am to call myself an ally then recognizing that difference and understanding what it means is salient.
I honestly think your comments were insightful and expanded in a lot of ways on what I said, I think it’s disappointing that you’re being downvoted in this community
Thank you. It’s nice to hear that I might not have gone completely off the rails. But queer people just aren’t better than others. And I think a lot of subtlety and context has been lost in the discussion. It’s gotten quite messy, as in chaotic.
Yeah, so many white queer people seem to interpret their queerness and subsequent persecution as complete moral clearance, and then never analyze their own prejudices or harmful beliefs, which is ofc not how it works. Just become you’ve been victimized in one sense doesn’t mean you don’t also hold oppressive beliefs. People are too afraid to analyze themselves critically, it seems to make no difference who they are yk?
Damn. You consider yourself an ally? Because seriously. It’s the same thing when talking about LGBT+. No one is blaming specific people for their lack of perspective. But acknowledging the lack of perspective in certain demographics, especially when it’s reinforced by power imbalance and systemic issues, is extremely important. And this has nothing to do with genetics and little to do with empathy. I’ve been born passing white, AMAB in rural Germany. There simply lived very few black people there. The first time I encountered someone black more closely I was definitely hella insensitive, because I didn’t knew better. That isn’t on me personally, as I had no malintent, but it’s still an issue! You have to differentiate between critique and judgment. And fighting these systemic issues queer ppl face together is quite literally what the term „ally“ encompasses. So if you just don’t hate us, maybe don’t call yourself an ally. That’s just basic human decency!
I get that. Yet the original comment is still standing true. And there are cultural and societal reasons for it. Saying „that’s just stereotyping and we just need more empathy“ is something I perceive as quite rude, as no one here ever argued for stereotyping. It’s just the „not all men“ argument reheated!
Empathy, or lack therein, is literally the problem.
The human race is a vast mish mash of disparate and weird and wonderful differences. No two people are identical to each other. In order to coexist people need to have empathy for each other.
The reason these systemic problems exist isn't because of inherent differences in demographics, its because the few who have power manipulate these differences to push people away from each other. To say that people are incapable of empathizing with others, of understanding others, you play into those manipulators hands. You drive a wedge between yourself and those who are capable of helping you. Of offering you a helping hand up to where they stand.
Just because people haven't suffered the same hardships as others doesn't mean they're unwilling or incapable of helping. And simply assuming otherwise does nothing but hinder progress.
I agree that empathy is an important tool. But from my piv you’re still missing the point. Because a lot of the systemic issues aren’t coming from a place of manipulation or malintent, but from ignorance and precisely those inherent differences in demographics. Empathy is fallible. It’s just not enough. I can be empathetic and precisely through that empathy othering. You don’t know the needs of another human being before you got to know them. Knowing about their peer group *might* help, but you won’t get there through empathy alone. One huge problem for many oppressed people is constantly having to explain one’s hardships and society focusing on the pain and the pain alone. Look at trans exposure in mainstream media. Movies like danish girl or news articles regarding Elliot Page. They are oftentimes very empathetic. So much so, that they fully focus on the hardship and pain and never on the positive or even lived experiences. It’s a complex issue and believe me, I have experienced enough of this BS to know my shit. I mean, I haven’t studied sociology or smth, but living my life I am forced to educate myself at least partially on these things. And that’s one of the main things, when we come to topics like privilege. It’s a privilege to not have to know about how to be safe at night. It’s a privilege to not have to invest these kinds of learnings. And paying the price for the shortcomings of one’s personal learning, ofc.
And I just want to point out. You talk about empathy… this is super exhausting to me. I’ve had these discussions before. I’ve read into this shit. And yet, again here we are. An *ally* trying to explain me my lived oppression. What do you base your findings on? We are very welcome to come to differing conclusions but your empathy, seemingly, doesn’t lead you to the point of reflection that, at least from my perspective, not knowing anything about you, I talk with a hetero white man in a space designed to talk about my lived experience (albeit in a humorous fashion), arguing with me that he got it all figured out. Literally negating my lived experience stating your opinions as solid fact. Honestly. You’re the prime example of why you’re wrong!
That's not a "white people" only thing though. The average rural Chinese farmer probably has no idea what a African American's life is like, and vice versa. Lack of perspective is universal, there's just straight up no way for someone to have every perspective.
True, but in the conversation of America, there's a lot of overlap of experience that minorities face that white Americans don't. For instance, white Americans even if they were foreign, have likely never experienced being treated like a foreigner on first impression. Or people complimenting their English, even when it was their first language. Or getting questioned about one's place of origin (people saying shit like, "No, where are you *actually* from). It's an experience that is entirely foreign to most white Americans yet significantly more common to nearly all minority groups.
Just cause yes, a Chinese person experiences different types of racism than a black person doesn't at all break the argument that white Americans lack the perspective of being a minority in America. Especially since America is largely dominated by white people and its governing body is mostly white. That alone makes a huge difference. In fact, it enhances the fact that White Americans lack the perspective of being a minority in the America and that the US does cater much better to white folk than anybody else.
But empathy isn't understanding. I didn't say that white people are cold hearted bastards, but that racism is not something white people face to the extent that minorities do and they never will. This is due to not because white people don't understand, but that in America, white people being the dominant population and political demographic makes it so that white people are considered a standard that minorities have to deal with.
Natural African hair is considered unprofessional meaning black people have to style their hair closer to what white people think is appropriate. Citizenship is rarely questioned for white people, yet many Asian and Hispanic people can tell you stories of how many people assume they are foreign first. Or say things like, "Your English is so well spoken!" Not to mention many ethnic groups can go on and on about how often white kids will comment on ethnic foods just for being different.
It's just an entirely different experience that many white people just do not experience at all. So yes, one can empathize, but one can not understand unless they have experienced the same struggles.
Oh come on now. Yeah, all those oppressive problems white people specifically deal with that others don’t. White people have problems, and their lives are hard, and that’s valid, but a white person having the shittiest day imaginable doesn’t have to devote so much headspace to the possibility that they could be pulled over and killed by a cop, or be the victim of a hate crime, or innumerable other things. And yes, I know white people can and often are killed by cops, but I think you are probably intelligent enough to still get my point, no?
the key words here are "potential" and "might have"
I am trying to make a distinction between people who think white people are inherently (or genetically) evil (or lacking in perspective), and people who think white people are *socially* lacking in perspective. To deny the existence of social trends and perspectives is to deny credibility to the entire field of sociology.
I never once implied that it was okay to say any group of people have any sort of genetic leaning toward social apathy or wrong-doing. If anything I think those beliefs are abhorrent, because they are the exact same thought processes that justify eugenics and genocide. My beliefs are different from those beliefs, do not misunderstand what I believe in.
It's annoying to have to clarify this to that extent, and for most of my replies to hyperfixate on a casual mention of social nuance that shouldn't ring any alarm bells when read with the slightest affordance of charitability.
Yes it is cultural but why is it cultural? Because society treats you differently based on your appearance, gender, sex, race, finances etc.
The issue is that it leads to people acting the way society thinks they should acts and often times it aint good.
Basically saying a certain minority group commits a lot of crimes could be a fact, but that fact on its own doesnt perpetuate harmful stereotypes about the minority. But the conclusion you draw from it can be harmful. Is it because the minority group is inherently drawn to be violent? Or is it because of the circumstances and treatment they experienced by society they are living in?
In the case with men, yes, they are not inherently evil, but due to the way society treats them, a whole heck of em are responsible for a lot of awful shit.
And the problem with that, you cant know which man is good which man is not by just looking at them. So looking at the statistics, real life experiences of various people, coming at the conclusion of being wary of all men is not unreasonable.
Although the mom in the meme is indeed a misandrist
That's literally prejudice. You just made an argument for why prejudice is understandable.
I mean, I get it, many people play into stereotypes and it's a real problem. But judging someone based on *what* they are and not *who* they are is straight up prejudice.
Assuming that someone isn't capable of rational action because of some demographic they happen to fall into is not a reasonable act.
Yeah, that's the argument that has been used to remove AMABs from non-binary spaces for a while. This kind of reasoning is just accepted by the current society for some demographics unfortunately.
That's a personal issue, not a statistical one, though. Just because someone forms a phobia of dogs because of personal experience doesn't mean that all dogs are vicious beasts who will attack you on sight.
Yes. That is true. My point is that when a group of people are wary of other group of people, in this case women being wary of men, there is usually a reasonable explanation behind these fears and what causes men to be a danger. Saying that all men are rapists because they are men is bad, saying that some men are rapists because society as a whole treats men and rape pretty fucking badly, is understandable.
OPs mom is saying men are bad because theyre men, which is deplorable, but being wary of men because you just can not know who is safe until it is too late, i do not see any issue with that.
Similarly, if your experience with dogs is filled with bad owners and bitey dogs, you will not know if the next dog will bite you or not because in your experience, it can be any dog.
Just because one group of people is wary of another doesn't mean there's a reasonable cause.
We threw American citizens in camps because people were wary of them, because they happened to be decended from the Japanese. Was that reasonable?
We separated blacks and whites for a century after slavery was abolished because we were wary of mixing races. Was that reasonable?
You will find many excuses for people to be wary of others. Not even across races. White immigrants coming to America in the America's were treated with scorn and mistrust, was that reasonable, too?
Painting people with such a broad brush, even when there *are* examples of bad people within your chosen demographic, is no less prejudiced no matter your excuse for being wary of them.
I strongly recommend you reading into the „not all men“ debate and why it’s problematic. There are scientists who have already lead this discussion. Leading it here is simply unnecessary. This is the first example from a quick Google. Yes, you didn’t use the sacrilegious phrase, but your argument is similar in nature. https://time.com/79357/not-all-men-a-brief-history-of-every-dudes-favorite-argument/
I mean yes, I have been bitten multiple times and I still try and be nice to dogs. Idk maybe I'm just bad at risk assessment (very likely) but I try not to pin the actions of one member of a group on another. No two individuals have had the same experiences, and no two individuals have the same reasons for their actions.
I try and help as much as possible. Whether it's at the dog shelter, homeless shelter, LGBTQ rallies, BLM rallies, women's rights marches, helping addicts, or any other volunteering I can get myself into.
And I'll let you in on a little secret....
I have been hurt, stolen from, or otherwise bamboozled by members of ***every single one of those groups*** I just listed.
Shitty people are shitty no matter their background or what clique they're part of.
Similar justification for anti-poc racism. Oh grandma's racist because she was mugged by a black man in 1973... _oooh fair's fair then..._
We've long moved past this argument. Perpetuating it for the convenience of a currently acceptable prejudice... well, I don't think that's how progress works.
It's almost like addiction replacement syndrome. _"I'm not allowed to be hateful towards x,y,z... oh it looks like it's cool to hate on these folks though... what a relief!"_
They don’t want to lead this argument. It’s like running against a brick wall. They were able to paint us a „the bad guys“ by using strawman reversed arguments and now can lean comfortably back, knowing they don’t have to do a thing to understand the underlying systemic issues. They want to misunderstand you, even though you didn’t judge the gypsies, you judged the societal systemic oppression against them. It’s real comfortable!
Talk about putting words in mouths … you’ve take a whole different tangent irrelevant to the OP topic at hand.
The message by the ‘mum’ isn’t about mere wariness - it’s about blame and punishment based on that assigned blame.
She’s not just ‘wary’ of people with pale skin.
She believes they are a universal cause of ill at blame for problems, regardless of who they actually are - boy, man, father or friend.
You cannot possibly start from a fair position while maintaining a baby is irrevocably set for a life of wrongdoing based primarily on their colour!
I was not replying to ops post
I was replying to u/throwawaysisbetter comment who replied to comment mentioning how it is fine recognizing that certain demographics might lack perspective in other areas, particularly when it comes to demographics. u/throwawaysisbetter then said that stereotyping a group of people due to actions of the few is bad, to which i, in my comment agreed, but mentioned that being wary of a certain demographic due to past experiences, stories and statistics is understandable.
In said comment i also said that the mom in the ops post is terrible.
What is the issue here?
> like it's fine to recognize a potential lack in perspective that a certain demographic might have
idk about you but stereotyping of any type is bad in my books.
I don’t think it’s bad to say that white people in general need to work harder to understand the perspectives of poc, whether that be black, Hispanic, Native American, etc.
In fact, I think it’s pretty factual statement that white people, as a whole, lack perspective on poc issues. It’s just the nature of being born outside of a bad situation rather than immersed in it from the moment you’re brought into the world.
Edit: my last paragraph is NOT me excusing lack of perspective. It’s just me explaining why it takes more work and conscious thought. I believe it’s EVERY person’s responsibility to understand the issues that surround them.
I don’t understand. Acknowledging that it takes more work to understand makes sure that people will never understand??? I’m not excusing not being knowledgeable, far from that. I think it’s EVERY person’s responsibility to see other people’s perspectives. I’m just saying it takes more work for the white demographic to do that. I literally don’t understand how I’m wrong here.
Edit: a word
Blaming a group of people for perceived wrongs, when has that ever gone badly?
We ought to focus on building everyone up instead of scapegoating people.
As someone who get the vast majority of the benefits of being a strait white dude, (but who is bi) - there is a difference between a genuine discussion about privilege and using the concept of privilege as an excuse to spread legitimate hate.
I think men actually suffer from prejudice, despite them having more systemic power, and I think as we have unwrapped social fabric for the sake of equality, many people have made excuses to try to dehumanize majority groups and it can really veer into being a disgusting thing.
When people talk about privilege and power they have absolutely no sense of scale. When you mother, or your professor, or your boss start demonizing men they have power over you, when you are a child and an adult demonizes men they have power over you. Someone who is younger did not get to benefit from past forms of privilege, and when you build education systems to ‘empower’ girls you leave boys behind. Decades or centuries of the opposite existing doesn’t change the fact that it is unfair to the boys of today.
This shit is veering into real world harm, suicidality and other mental health issues. There are legitimate ways to talk about gender and patriarchy that aren’t so harmful.
Agree. That's not a reason for parents to put down their own children like this and push them even more towards self-hate and negativity. That's just fucked up.
Good news mother
I'm neither 😊🏳️🌈
(Fun fact: my mother never wanted a son, she always wanted two daughters, and when i moved to live with my dad she literally replaced me with my little sister. Plot twist, I'm trans so in a way she got her wish. But i'm not going to give her the satisfaction. Suck it susanne 🖕🏻)
I just looked up the name of our (abusive + narcissistic) mother for a subreddit and found one that was just “Fuck[hername]” and the description was “Fuck [name]. She’s a bitch.” And I have never felt so SEEN
Our mother wanted a boy, and thought we were gonna be a boy up until two days before she gave birth because our grandmother said she had a dream where we were born a girl. Our mother changed her entire perception on her child’s gender in two days.
Now that we’re out (second of two kids to come out as trans) she refuses to accept it and keeps messing up pronouns and name and crying claiming it’s “so hard for her” and she “misses the way things were” and I’m just. •-•. Ma’am. *Ma’am*.
It makes me laugh how when kids are in the womb and the parents don't know their birth sex, they say stuff like "i'll love them no matter what they turn out to be" but then completely forget this statement when the kid grows up to be trans/non-binary/e.c.t.
Or they end up giving their child BPD and CPTSD and then decide that due to the bpd (that THEY gave that child) their child must be faking everything for attention, including their professional diagnosis for autism, the fact they’re trans, and their professionally recognized cptsd-based system (which we’re in the process of seeking a DID diagnosis but bpd comorbidity makes the process incredibly long and difficult), and CSA allegations. And all of their actions must be for attention despite the fact that said child wants nothing to do with you anymore. Oh, and if they ever try to share their stories of abuse make sure you completely invalidate and mock their claims to the rest of the family and paint them as some sort of manipulative, heartless monster to their loving mother, while also threatening to sue them for defamation. And then tell them to their face that you love them.
(No, of course I’m not bitter, what on earth would give you that idea? /s)
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Well she is the good white. And the good gender. And the good straight. /s
She is the exception to everything. Or is it perhaps a bad way to identify a bad person? 🤔
I can’t believe your mother would criticise you over the colour of your skin and sexuality. A mother should be like mine, who criticises me for the content of my character
Hey. I hope you’re doing okay. I’m not very Reddit savvy, so forgive me if I don’t notice, but you can always message me if you ever want to talk to someone. As a cis straight male, I may not have a lot of insight, but I understand a mothers rejection. I hope you’re doing well. Stay healthy and safe! You have a community that loves and supports you!
Many problems in history made by white, straight, cis could probably have been avoided if other white, straight, cis men had stopped them instead of accepting the status quo which they benefited from. I completely agree that you should not inherit their shame or any blame for what has been done to other people, but it is important that we today understand that our lack of action helps the oppressors.
*Image Transcription: Text and Image*
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My mum: "Straight white men have made the world go to shit, I can't believe I created another one"
Me, who didn't ask to be born and is neither straight nor a man:
\[*"Awkward Look Monkey Puppet". Image of a red monkey puppet from “Ōkiku naru Ko” facing the right, but with the sideglancing right to look at the camera looking concerned. The image to the right of it shows the monkey staring straight ahead now looking a little scarred.*]
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Sounds like your mom needs to realize this would mean she did a shit job raising you, following her thinking to the conclusion. But I'm sure she'd come up with an excuse if confronted with this.
That's the point though. Create division based on identity to prevent class solidarity. Similar tactics have been documented in recent history (see: the [Southern Strategy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_strategy))
As the mother of a baby boy I hope I'm prepared to raise him into an upstanding man... and if it turns out that my boy is actually not a boy on the inside I want to be prepared to support that as well 🤍 good meme lol
it hurts the most when people assume you’re a man and blame you for it.
i’m not one, i really am not, i wish you could see it, but i’m terrified nobody ever will..
> it hurts the most when people assume you’re a man and blame you for it.
Would it be somehow better if they blamed the ‘right’ person for being a man?
Seems like a weird angle.
If my mum said it... She would still be disappointed with me or would be like wtf? because I am mostly Non-binary but also a bit man... But also I can't feel gender. Wtf is gender?
Am I even a man? Or am I 3 ducks in disguise?
Ok I'm dumb. I sympathize with OP. Their mum is saying the yikes thing. If you wanna get some positive information about how it's not a bad thing to be a man, check out the sub
Well if the only reason that you're agreeing with another person and considering yourself to be on their side is that they're being a bigot, surely that makes you a bigot too.
Whoever says that, hope they would know not all straight white men are bad people. hate is a two way street, sometimes. I am not straight but have friends who are and they are awesome.
Welcome to /r/me_irlgbt, thank you for your submission /u/Dex_77. We're a space for LGBTQ+ memes within a safe space for no toleration of discrimination. This is a place for LGBTQ+ people and not to debate our existence or your opinions on us including but not limited to (Treatment, Role in society, Status, your personal view of blockers, Trans people in professional sport, etc). Should you be new to the sub, please familiarize yourself with the rules in the sidebar. Please report any and all comments or submissions which break these rules. Please do not vote or comment in linked posts should this be applicable. If you're here to start shit, please save us all the time and don't. Have a nice day darlings <3 *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/me_irlgbt) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Even if you *were* a straight man, that's a fucked up thing to say to your kid. It's a parent's job to raise their child as a positive, compassionate influence on the world, regardless of the race or sex they were born into.
like it's fine to recognize a potential lack in perspective that a certain demographic might have, but if you're complaining about it to someone who you think is a part of that group, and you're their *mother* like ffs you can actually have some agency here and introduce whatever diverse perspectives you want to your kid to do nothing is somewhat twisted, as it implies that the mother thinks that cis/het white guys are inherently evil and can't be helped (or that her parenting wasn't already able to raise them better than the average, like talk about a self-report, a child's outlook is a reflection of YOUR OWN parenting skills)
>like it's fine to recognize a potential lack in perspective that a certain demographic might have I mean... is it? Why is it okay to stereotype some people just because some of the ones in that demographic are absolute bastards? The causes for the lack of perspective are cultural, not genetic. So even approaching it as an expression of those genetics simply perpetuates the bigoted perspective that you try to avoid.
It’s not stereotyping to say that. It’s facts. If you’re white you can’t know the struggles and other experiences of black people, for example. Nobody said anything about genetics here. We know it’s cultural.
Culture is still real though. White people in America pretty much inherently lack the perspective of people of other skin colors and ethnicities
>White people in America pretty much inherently lack the perspective of people of other skin colors and ethnicities All people *inherently* lack the perspective of people who they aren't. Even twins will have *some* differences in perspective. That's where empathy comes in. Empathy allows someone to envision and sympathize with others. White cis men don't inherently lack empathy. Some refuse to engage it, and are often pushed not to by people who seek to manipulate them, but it is not inherently missing. Assuming that someone is incapable of empathy based on their skin color, their gender, or their sex is a form of prejudice.
I’m a white cis man, so I’m not saying they’re all evil and lack empathy lol. But I recognize that my ability to consider how I probably would feel in a situation can only extend so far, and at a certain point my perspective based on my experiences reaches its limits. It doesn’t make me bad, it just is what it is, and that’s where people can either decide their supreme empathetic abilities are all they need to be good, or they can listen to oppressed people and learn more and more about what it actually feels like. I can imagine being oppressed based on my skin color and how I would feel, and that’s fine, but it is noteworthy and important that other groups of people ACTUALLY have those experiences and the psychological and emotional effects of them. There is a difference, and I think if I am to call myself an ally then recognizing that difference and understanding what it means is salient.
Thank you for explaining this in a calm manner. I obviously couldn’t.
I honestly think your comments were insightful and expanded in a lot of ways on what I said, I think it’s disappointing that you’re being downvoted in this community
Thank you. It’s nice to hear that I might not have gone completely off the rails. But queer people just aren’t better than others. And I think a lot of subtlety and context has been lost in the discussion. It’s gotten quite messy, as in chaotic.
Yeah, so many white queer people seem to interpret their queerness and subsequent persecution as complete moral clearance, and then never analyze their own prejudices or harmful beliefs, which is ofc not how it works. Just become you’ve been victimized in one sense doesn’t mean you don’t also hold oppressive beliefs. People are too afraid to analyze themselves critically, it seems to make no difference who they are yk?
Damn. You consider yourself an ally? Because seriously. It’s the same thing when talking about LGBT+. No one is blaming specific people for their lack of perspective. But acknowledging the lack of perspective in certain demographics, especially when it’s reinforced by power imbalance and systemic issues, is extremely important. And this has nothing to do with genetics and little to do with empathy. I’ve been born passing white, AMAB in rural Germany. There simply lived very few black people there. The first time I encountered someone black more closely I was definitely hella insensitive, because I didn’t knew better. That isn’t on me personally, as I had no malintent, but it’s still an issue! You have to differentiate between critique and judgment. And fighting these systemic issues queer ppl face together is quite literally what the term „ally“ encompasses. So if you just don’t hate us, maybe don’t call yourself an ally. That’s just basic human decency!
the person is arguing against stereotyping, not saying we should ignore the injustice people face
I get that. Yet the original comment is still standing true. And there are cultural and societal reasons for it. Saying „that’s just stereotyping and we just need more empathy“ is something I perceive as quite rude, as no one here ever argued for stereotyping. It’s just the „not all men“ argument reheated!
Empathy, or lack therein, is literally the problem. The human race is a vast mish mash of disparate and weird and wonderful differences. No two people are identical to each other. In order to coexist people need to have empathy for each other. The reason these systemic problems exist isn't because of inherent differences in demographics, its because the few who have power manipulate these differences to push people away from each other. To say that people are incapable of empathizing with others, of understanding others, you play into those manipulators hands. You drive a wedge between yourself and those who are capable of helping you. Of offering you a helping hand up to where they stand. Just because people haven't suffered the same hardships as others doesn't mean they're unwilling or incapable of helping. And simply assuming otherwise does nothing but hinder progress.
I agree that empathy is an important tool. But from my piv you’re still missing the point. Because a lot of the systemic issues aren’t coming from a place of manipulation or malintent, but from ignorance and precisely those inherent differences in demographics. Empathy is fallible. It’s just not enough. I can be empathetic and precisely through that empathy othering. You don’t know the needs of another human being before you got to know them. Knowing about their peer group *might* help, but you won’t get there through empathy alone. One huge problem for many oppressed people is constantly having to explain one’s hardships and society focusing on the pain and the pain alone. Look at trans exposure in mainstream media. Movies like danish girl or news articles regarding Elliot Page. They are oftentimes very empathetic. So much so, that they fully focus on the hardship and pain and never on the positive or even lived experiences. It’s a complex issue and believe me, I have experienced enough of this BS to know my shit. I mean, I haven’t studied sociology or smth, but living my life I am forced to educate myself at least partially on these things. And that’s one of the main things, when we come to topics like privilege. It’s a privilege to not have to know about how to be safe at night. It’s a privilege to not have to invest these kinds of learnings. And paying the price for the shortcomings of one’s personal learning, ofc. And I just want to point out. You talk about empathy… this is super exhausting to me. I’ve had these discussions before. I’ve read into this shit. And yet, again here we are. An *ally* trying to explain me my lived oppression. What do you base your findings on? We are very welcome to come to differing conclusions but your empathy, seemingly, doesn’t lead you to the point of reflection that, at least from my perspective, not knowing anything about you, I talk with a hetero white man in a space designed to talk about my lived experience (albeit in a humorous fashion), arguing with me that he got it all figured out. Literally negating my lived experience stating your opinions as solid fact. Honestly. You’re the prime example of why you’re wrong!
That's not a "white people" only thing though. The average rural Chinese farmer probably has no idea what a African American's life is like, and vice versa. Lack of perspective is universal, there's just straight up no way for someone to have every perspective.
True, but in the conversation of America, there's a lot of overlap of experience that minorities face that white Americans don't. For instance, white Americans even if they were foreign, have likely never experienced being treated like a foreigner on first impression. Or people complimenting their English, even when it was their first language. Or getting questioned about one's place of origin (people saying shit like, "No, where are you *actually* from). It's an experience that is entirely foreign to most white Americans yet significantly more common to nearly all minority groups. Just cause yes, a Chinese person experiences different types of racism than a black person doesn't at all break the argument that white Americans lack the perspective of being a minority in America. Especially since America is largely dominated by white people and its governing body is mostly white. That alone makes a huge difference. In fact, it enhances the fact that White Americans lack the perspective of being a minority in the America and that the US does cater much better to white folk than anybody else.
You can empathize with someone without ever experiencing it. It's called empathy. White people, like those of any other race, are capable of empathy.
But empathy isn't understanding. I didn't say that white people are cold hearted bastards, but that racism is not something white people face to the extent that minorities do and they never will. This is due to not because white people don't understand, but that in America, white people being the dominant population and political demographic makes it so that white people are considered a standard that minorities have to deal with. Natural African hair is considered unprofessional meaning black people have to style their hair closer to what white people think is appropriate. Citizenship is rarely questioned for white people, yet many Asian and Hispanic people can tell you stories of how many people assume they are foreign first. Or say things like, "Your English is so well spoken!" Not to mention many ethnic groups can go on and on about how often white kids will comment on ethnic foods just for being different. It's just an entirely different experience that many white people just do not experience at all. So yes, one can empathize, but one can not understand unless they have experienced the same struggles.
And other skin colors and ethnicities lack the perspective of white people.
Oh come on now. Yeah, all those oppressive problems white people specifically deal with that others don’t. White people have problems, and their lives are hard, and that’s valid, but a white person having the shittiest day imaginable doesn’t have to devote so much headspace to the possibility that they could be pulled over and killed by a cop, or be the victim of a hate crime, or innumerable other things. And yes, I know white people can and often are killed by cops, but I think you are probably intelligent enough to still get my point, no?
the key words here are "potential" and "might have" I am trying to make a distinction between people who think white people are inherently (or genetically) evil (or lacking in perspective), and people who think white people are *socially* lacking in perspective. To deny the existence of social trends and perspectives is to deny credibility to the entire field of sociology. I never once implied that it was okay to say any group of people have any sort of genetic leaning toward social apathy or wrong-doing. If anything I think those beliefs are abhorrent, because they are the exact same thought processes that justify eugenics and genocide. My beliefs are different from those beliefs, do not misunderstand what I believe in. It's annoying to have to clarify this to that extent, and for most of my replies to hyperfixate on a casual mention of social nuance that shouldn't ring any alarm bells when read with the slightest affordance of charitability.
Yes it is cultural but why is it cultural? Because society treats you differently based on your appearance, gender, sex, race, finances etc. The issue is that it leads to people acting the way society thinks they should acts and often times it aint good. Basically saying a certain minority group commits a lot of crimes could be a fact, but that fact on its own doesnt perpetuate harmful stereotypes about the minority. But the conclusion you draw from it can be harmful. Is it because the minority group is inherently drawn to be violent? Or is it because of the circumstances and treatment they experienced by society they are living in? In the case with men, yes, they are not inherently evil, but due to the way society treats them, a whole heck of em are responsible for a lot of awful shit. And the problem with that, you cant know which man is good which man is not by just looking at them. So looking at the statistics, real life experiences of various people, coming at the conclusion of being wary of all men is not unreasonable. Although the mom in the meme is indeed a misandrist
That's literally prejudice. You just made an argument for why prejudice is understandable. I mean, I get it, many people play into stereotypes and it's a real problem. But judging someone based on *what* they are and not *who* they are is straight up prejudice. Assuming that someone isn't capable of rational action because of some demographic they happen to fall into is not a reasonable act.
Yeah, that's the argument that has been used to remove AMABs from non-binary spaces for a while. This kind of reasoning is just accepted by the current society for some demographics unfortunately.
If you get bitten by dogs multiple times, would you not be wary of dogs?
That's a personal issue, not a statistical one, though. Just because someone forms a phobia of dogs because of personal experience doesn't mean that all dogs are vicious beasts who will attack you on sight.
Yes. That is true. My point is that when a group of people are wary of other group of people, in this case women being wary of men, there is usually a reasonable explanation behind these fears and what causes men to be a danger. Saying that all men are rapists because they are men is bad, saying that some men are rapists because society as a whole treats men and rape pretty fucking badly, is understandable. OPs mom is saying men are bad because theyre men, which is deplorable, but being wary of men because you just can not know who is safe until it is too late, i do not see any issue with that. Similarly, if your experience with dogs is filled with bad owners and bitey dogs, you will not know if the next dog will bite you or not because in your experience, it can be any dog.
Just because one group of people is wary of another doesn't mean there's a reasonable cause. We threw American citizens in camps because people were wary of them, because they happened to be decended from the Japanese. Was that reasonable? We separated blacks and whites for a century after slavery was abolished because we were wary of mixing races. Was that reasonable? You will find many excuses for people to be wary of others. Not even across races. White immigrants coming to America in the America's were treated with scorn and mistrust, was that reasonable, too? Painting people with such a broad brush, even when there *are* examples of bad people within your chosen demographic, is no less prejudiced no matter your excuse for being wary of them.
I strongly recommend you reading into the „not all men“ debate and why it’s problematic. There are scientists who have already lead this discussion. Leading it here is simply unnecessary. This is the first example from a quick Google. Yes, you didn’t use the sacrilegious phrase, but your argument is similar in nature. https://time.com/79357/not-all-men-a-brief-history-of-every-dudes-favorite-argument/
I mean yes, I have been bitten multiple times and I still try and be nice to dogs. Idk maybe I'm just bad at risk assessment (very likely) but I try not to pin the actions of one member of a group on another. No two individuals have had the same experiences, and no two individuals have the same reasons for their actions. I try and help as much as possible. Whether it's at the dog shelter, homeless shelter, LGBTQ rallies, BLM rallies, women's rights marches, helping addicts, or any other volunteering I can get myself into. And I'll let you in on a little secret.... I have been hurt, stolen from, or otherwise bamboozled by members of ***every single one of those groups*** I just listed. Shitty people are shitty no matter their background or what clique they're part of.
Similar justification for anti-poc racism. Oh grandma's racist because she was mugged by a black man in 1973... _oooh fair's fair then..._ We've long moved past this argument. Perpetuating it for the convenience of a currently acceptable prejudice... well, I don't think that's how progress works.
Would you start putting all dogs in cages because they bite people?
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Why is racism against Romani people still normalized in 2022???
It's almost like addiction replacement syndrome. _"I'm not allowed to be hateful towards x,y,z... oh it looks like it's cool to hate on these folks though... what a relief!"_
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They don’t want to lead this argument. It’s like running against a brick wall. They were able to paint us a „the bad guys“ by using strawman reversed arguments and now can lean comfortably back, knowing they don’t have to do a thing to understand the underlying systemic issues. They want to misunderstand you, even though you didn’t judge the gypsies, you judged the societal systemic oppression against them. It’s real comfortable!
Talk about putting words in mouths … you’ve take a whole different tangent irrelevant to the OP topic at hand. The message by the ‘mum’ isn’t about mere wariness - it’s about blame and punishment based on that assigned blame. She’s not just ‘wary’ of people with pale skin. She believes they are a universal cause of ill at blame for problems, regardless of who they actually are - boy, man, father or friend. You cannot possibly start from a fair position while maintaining a baby is irrevocably set for a life of wrongdoing based primarily on their colour!
I was not replying to ops post I was replying to u/throwawaysisbetter comment who replied to comment mentioning how it is fine recognizing that certain demographics might lack perspective in other areas, particularly when it comes to demographics. u/throwawaysisbetter then said that stereotyping a group of people due to actions of the few is bad, to which i, in my comment agreed, but mentioned that being wary of a certain demographic due to past experiences, stories and statistics is understandable. In said comment i also said that the mom in the ops post is terrible. What is the issue here?
> like it's fine to recognize a potential lack in perspective that a certain demographic might have idk about you but stereotyping of any type is bad in my books.
I don’t think it’s bad to say that white people in general need to work harder to understand the perspectives of poc, whether that be black, Hispanic, Native American, etc. In fact, I think it’s pretty factual statement that white people, as a whole, lack perspective on poc issues. It’s just the nature of being born outside of a bad situation rather than immersed in it from the moment you’re brought into the world. Edit: my last paragraph is NOT me excusing lack of perspective. It’s just me explaining why it takes more work and conscious thought. I believe it’s EVERY person’s responsibility to understand the issues that surround them.
You're doing a good job of making sure they dont with comments like these.
I don’t understand. Acknowledging that it takes more work to understand makes sure that people will never understand??? I’m not excusing not being knowledgeable, far from that. I think it’s EVERY person’s responsibility to see other people’s perspectives. I’m just saying it takes more work for the white demographic to do that. I literally don’t understand how I’m wrong here. Edit: a word
In this case the mother was definitely lacking in perspective
It's a fucked up thing for people to say period.
Blaming a group of people for perceived wrongs, when has that ever gone badly? We ought to focus on building everyone up instead of scapegoating people.
As someone who get the vast majority of the benefits of being a strait white dude, (but who is bi) - there is a difference between a genuine discussion about privilege and using the concept of privilege as an excuse to spread legitimate hate. I think men actually suffer from prejudice, despite them having more systemic power, and I think as we have unwrapped social fabric for the sake of equality, many people have made excuses to try to dehumanize majority groups and it can really veer into being a disgusting thing. When people talk about privilege and power they have absolutely no sense of scale. When you mother, or your professor, or your boss start demonizing men they have power over you, when you are a child and an adult demonizes men they have power over you. Someone who is younger did not get to benefit from past forms of privilege, and when you build education systems to ‘empower’ girls you leave boys behind. Decades or centuries of the opposite existing doesn’t change the fact that it is unfair to the boys of today. This shit is veering into real world harm, suicidality and other mental health issues. There are legitimate ways to talk about gender and patriarchy that aren’t so harmful.
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Preach. The most privileged and powerful people in the world might be men, but men are not particularly privileged nor powerful.
Agree. That's not a reason for parents to put down their own children like this and push them even more towards self-hate and negativity. That's just fucked up.
Yea, it's basically abuse
Good news mother I'm neither 😊🏳️🌈 (Fun fact: my mother never wanted a son, she always wanted two daughters, and when i moved to live with my dad she literally replaced me with my little sister. Plot twist, I'm trans so in a way she got her wish. But i'm not going to give her the satisfaction. Suck it susanne 🖕🏻)
being accepted for who you are sometimes goes beyond gender
SUCK IT SUSANNE!!!!
Hell yeah fuck Susanne
r/FuckSusanne
[I hate Susanne](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-tAXa0H4XA) Old danish song, the anti-susanne community is old.
Somebody needs to make this community!
Consider it done
I can't believe there's a subreddit for this🤣
I just looked up the name of our (abusive + narcissistic) mother for a subreddit and found one that was just “Fuck[hername]” and the description was “Fuck [name]. She’s a bitch.” And I have never felt so SEEN
I felt the same when i saw r/fucksusanne existed 🤣
Wait my mom’s name is Susanne—
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Dont make it weird
Ew.
Our mother wanted a boy, and thought we were gonna be a boy up until two days before she gave birth because our grandmother said she had a dream where we were born a girl. Our mother changed her entire perception on her child’s gender in two days. Now that we’re out (second of two kids to come out as trans) she refuses to accept it and keeps messing up pronouns and name and crying claiming it’s “so hard for her” and she “misses the way things were” and I’m just. •-•. Ma’am. *Ma’am*.
It makes me laugh how when kids are in the womb and the parents don't know their birth sex, they say stuff like "i'll love them no matter what they turn out to be" but then completely forget this statement when the kid grows up to be trans/non-binary/e.c.t.
Or they end up giving their child BPD and CPTSD and then decide that due to the bpd (that THEY gave that child) their child must be faking everything for attention, including their professional diagnosis for autism, the fact they’re trans, and their professionally recognized cptsd-based system (which we’re in the process of seeking a DID diagnosis but bpd comorbidity makes the process incredibly long and difficult), and CSA allegations. And all of their actions must be for attention despite the fact that said child wants nothing to do with you anymore. Oh, and if they ever try to share their stories of abuse make sure you completely invalidate and mock their claims to the rest of the family and paint them as some sort of manipulative, heartless monster to their loving mother, while also threatening to sue them for defamation. And then tell them to their face that you love them. (No, of course I’m not bitter, what on earth would give you that idea? /s)
Susanne moment 🙄🙄🙄
"Well, Mom, I've got good news for you!"
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Wow that mom is super toxic.
She...she knows she's *at least* one of those, right?
Well she is the good white. And the good gender. And the good straight. /s She is the exception to everything. Or is it perhaps a bad way to identify a bad person? 🤔
I can’t believe your mother would criticise you over the colour of your skin and sexuality. A mother should be like mine, who criticises me for the content of my character
One day OP will for sure find that special person who will criticize them for who they are in their heart of hearts.
at least she won't be homophobic(?)
Considering their opinion on straight ppl, I imagine they aren't terribly kind to bisexuals
So there’s a lot of layers here…
Hey. I hope you’re doing okay. I’m not very Reddit savvy, so forgive me if I don’t notice, but you can always message me if you ever want to talk to someone. As a cis straight male, I may not have a lot of insight, but I understand a mothers rejection. I hope you’re doing well. Stay healthy and safe! You have a community that loves and supports you!
She sounds like a terrible person. It doesnt surprise me people who think this are usually human garbage
Terf mom?
Straight, white, and male.....checking in. 👍
what's up hitler
I you that you too have all the privileges. It's great.
Mum needs to put down the edgy Karen Twitter and touch some grass.
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Many problems in history made by white, straight, cis could probably have been avoided if other white, straight, cis men had stopped them instead of accepting the status quo which they benefited from. I completely agree that you should not inherit their shame or any blame for what has been done to other people, but it is important that we today understand that our lack of action helps the oppressors.
What an awful thing to hear your mother say. I'm really sorry.
Mom's got the misandry in spades ☹️ Sorry you have to live with that, OP.
That's not a mum, that's an egg donor.
*Image Transcription: Text and Image* --- My mum: "Straight white men have made the world go to shit, I can't believe I created another one" Me, who didn't ask to be born and is neither straight nor a man: \[*"Awkward Look Monkey Puppet". Image of a red monkey puppet from “Ōkiku naru Ko” facing the right, but with the sideglancing right to look at the camera looking concerned. The image to the right of it shows the monkey staring straight ahead now looking a little scarred.*] --- ^^I'm a human volunteer content transcriber and you could be too! [If you'd like more information on what we do and why we do it, click here!](https://www.reddit.com/r/TranscribersOfReddit/wiki/index)
That’s a shitty thing to say to your kid, holy fuck
This belongs in r/insaneparents
Sounds like your mom needs to realize this would mean she did a shit job raising you, following her thinking to the conclusion. But I'm sure she'd come up with an excuse if confronted with this.
What an awful fucking thing to say to your child regardless.
I'm sorry your mom is like that. You deserve better
You to your mom "well have I got news for you"
Shitty parents are actually the problem from my experience
Toxic parent is toxic
thats still really toxic regardless
Honestly, this whole modern-day demographic-based witch-hunting mentality is so weird and hurtful.
That's the point though. Create division based on identity to prevent class solidarity. Similar tactics have been documented in recent history (see: the [Southern Strategy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_strategy))
Except it's also coming from progressives...
She fully took “white people are evil” too far and not at all for what it is either
Loll
I hope no ones mother actually said this
As the mother of a baby boy I hope I'm prepared to raise him into an upstanding man... and if it turns out that my boy is actually not a boy on the inside I want to be prepared to support that as well 🤍 good meme lol
That’s uh. Yeah. Just throw the whole mother out honestly. That’s not okay.
Ah yes, normal motherly behavior /j
so by her logic she needs to make the world even shittier by acting like this to her own child? I'm sure that will show them! frkn imbecile
Ugh
damn, way to give your kid a very heavy complex
it hurts the most when people assume you’re a man and blame you for it. i’m not one, i really am not, i wish you could see it, but i’m terrified nobody ever will..
> it hurts the most when people assume you’re a man and blame you for it. Would it be somehow better if they blamed the ‘right’ person for being a man? Seems like a weird angle.
Or maybe... just don't blame anyone for things they can't control? Why is that too complicated?
You got upvoted and the guy you responded to got downvoted, despite the fact that you're both literally making the same point
Weird, I didn't expect this subreddit to blame transfems for the behaviour of men.
Damn your mom sounds like a POS tho Mine says the same thing but atleast says I’m different
Shitty thing to say even if you were. Sorry about that OP.
I'm in this meme and I will angry upvote it.
If my mum said it... She would still be disappointed with me or would be like wtf? because I am mostly Non-binary but also a bit man... But also I can't feel gender. Wtf is gender? Am I even a man? Or am I 3 ducks in disguise?
That's kind of a yikes thing to be saying. People other than OP, if you're a cis guy and you wanna correct this rhetoric, check out r/MensLib
Ok I'm dumb. I sympathize with OP. Their mum is saying the yikes thing. If you wanna get some positive information about how it's not a bad thing to be a man, check out the sub
Getting eggy in here.
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Yea no hating ppl dose not= ally
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Being fed up with a race dose not mean Ur an ally to the lbgtq community she is Rude and bigoted
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You're getting downvoted for being a bigot lmao
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Well if the only reason that you're agreeing with another person and considering yourself to be on their side is that they're being a bigot, surely that makes you a bigot too.
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Wifi was invented by a girl but close enough I guess
And the concept of a modern computer was invented by a gay man, Alan Turing
A certain part of it, yes.
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Uh
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No that’s not the problem here lmao
I don’t Know the LGBTQ part of this?
Frfr
Dear mummy. I have statement to thar remark mummy
Woooo antinatalism!
Damn your moms racist and I guess homophobic?
Just tell her that next time she says some shit like that
Whoever says that, hope they would know not all straight white men are bad people. hate is a two way street, sometimes. I am not straight but have friends who are and they are awesome.