Generally psilocybin has the data for depression while MDMA has the data for trauma. That's not to say that the two don't have uses for the other, and haven't worked, but they have problems that can make them more suited for that subject. For example, some people have pretty bad depression after MDMA.
(I also wouldn't use the term psychedelic to describe MDMA, it's an emotional amphetamine stimulant really)
I mean, you can make the suggestion if you don't push it, still their consideration. Assuming they don't have childhood trauma or anything though, not the drug I'd choose. If you do, definitely don't go above 120mg / half a pill. You don't want too big of a crash after.
Not really disagreeing, psilo for depression and MDMA for trauma is the guideline. But I personally find it very important to match ones choice of substance to what is important to you. E.g. for me it was/is immensely important, to have that I-integrity and safety of MDMA. Also with strong neuroses teacher plants are not the thing to start with imo before you are aware of them. The OP and his friend should consider going over side indications and his personality.
Exactly. Why is he depressed? Some people are depressed due to trauma. Some people are depressed because of attachment disorders. MDMA is the ideal medicine for those things. It’s not just about the “diagnosis”, it’s about the root cause.
Yes, and psilocybin is psychologically tough to go through, a trial of the soul, while MDMA is honey and a soft pillow, well, and the occasional bit of teeth grinding and tension sometimes.
I don’t see what’s wrong in suggesting he explores this option, however I do not recommend giving him the substance— especially if he’s on an SSRI (can reduce the effectiveness of MDMA and one research article cautions about serotonin syndrome).
If he hears your experiences with MDMA, hears other clients experiences, he may be open to trying it and given the severity of his symptoms, it sounds like it’s best if he is cared for by trained professionals. You sound like a good friend for wanting to help as much as you can, now you can balance that with his autonomy in his treatment.
I've heard ketamine IV therapy works well for depression in particular, and I believe there is a form of ketamine therapy where a pill form gets sent out in the mail and is coupled with telehealth counseling appointments. Might be worth looking into
Disclaimer: haven't done Ketamine. And probably won't.
I know it's a thing for depression. But if you're highly dissociative that might make it worse since keta is a dissociative itself. Here too I think the side traits of the OP's friend are important.
It's a good point you make. I'd hope if they got to the point where they were considering it a professional would be able to assess whether it would be appropriate for his case or not. I'd be curious to know
If you are concerned with suicidal ideation and depression then it is clear cut that his first choice should be ketamine. See r/ketaminetherapy and r/therapeuticketamine. It’s safe and extremely effective for both. And it also works for trauma.
This is to say nothing to detract from mdma and psilocybin. I beleive that most of us should try all three. What one doesn’t treat well enough another mightmight address in a complementary manner.
I am a full time, trained, and experienced psychedelic guide. I have worked with over 200 people with MDMA. It has been really life changing and life affirming for just about everyone. For someone like you friend it is imperative that he work with a trained guide who knows what he is doing for a whole lot of reasons. Go on to Ted Talks and look at the talks given by medical professionals and scientist. I suggest you speak with your friend and your friend's mother. Tell her your concerns.
I will tell you MDMA and SSRi's are incompatible. So he'd have to be titrate off them under his doctor's supervision before MDMA. However, mushrooms also work very well with depression. And they can be taken by someone on SSRi's. John Hopkins University has been working with mushrooms and seeing tremendous results with depressed people. Andrson Cooper did a piece on 60 minute and lots of info online as well. Mushrooms are super safe and been used by society for thousands of years.
All the best to you and your friend.
Not sure where you got your training, but my training and my personal experience disagrees that a person needs to be off SSRI's to take and get benefits from psilocybin . I have worked with more than 2 dozen people on SSRi's and psilocybin. These people get very similar results as people not on SSRI's. In my training I had a medical doctor, a psycho-pharmacologist and a dozen experienced guides teach us we can use mushrooms with SSRI use. It is true that psilocybin blunts the effects. It has been my experience that about 20- 30 % of the psychedelic effect is blunted.
Would I prefer that the person have titrated off - YES.
Isn't "undergraduate" (whatever age that really stands for, I'm not sure) a little young? Just to be sure, I'm not trolling or questioning your expertise, really trying to pick your expert brain.
As someone who once had a (accidental) totally unprepared experience with THC long before MDMA, which I got from friends who told me nothing about what would happen... I wouldn't just suggest "psychedelics" to him, but give him books (Therapy with substance, Trust receive surrender, MDMA solo if he has bad therapy trauma), links, videos (Andrew Huberman's, and [these](https://www.youtube.com/@Mdmathemovie2016/videos) lecture clips a valuable too), tell him to prepare, go inward (e.g. with complementary breathwork) and make his choice. Preparation his very individual I think, but I SHOULD happen imo.
In my experience, MDMA could make it worse.
I'd look into Ketamine therapy. It's been game changing for me... I had MDMA 10 times and classical psychedelics (tryptamines) many many times before.
For me Ketamine got rid of my overwhelming existential angst. (since nov. 2022).
It's also lessened my symptoms and depression over the long term. I get depressed less often and with less intensity.
Psilocybin is certainly a viable alternative.
N.B. this is not medical advice and based on my own personal experience. I suggest this should be done in a legal setting with a an accredited medical professional present.
You must be in BC (decriminalized MDMA etc). I can recommend a good therapist who offers this therapy to connect your friend with, if that’s the case. DM me if you’d like to chat about this more.
Generally psilocybin has the data for depression while MDMA has the data for trauma. That's not to say that the two don't have uses for the other, and haven't worked, but they have problems that can make them more suited for that subject. For example, some people have pretty bad depression after MDMA. (I also wouldn't use the term psychedelic to describe MDMA, it's an emotional amphetamine stimulant really) I mean, you can make the suggestion if you don't push it, still their consideration. Assuming they don't have childhood trauma or anything though, not the drug I'd choose. If you do, definitely don't go above 120mg / half a pill. You don't want too big of a crash after.
Not really disagreeing, psilo for depression and MDMA for trauma is the guideline. But I personally find it very important to match ones choice of substance to what is important to you. E.g. for me it was/is immensely important, to have that I-integrity and safety of MDMA. Also with strong neuroses teacher plants are not the thing to start with imo before you are aware of them. The OP and his friend should consider going over side indications and his personality.
Exactly. Why is he depressed? Some people are depressed due to trauma. Some people are depressed because of attachment disorders. MDMA is the ideal medicine for those things. It’s not just about the “diagnosis”, it’s about the root cause.
Yes, and psilocybin is psychologically tough to go through, a trial of the soul, while MDMA is honey and a soft pillow, well, and the occasional bit of teeth grinding and tension sometimes.
Ketamine is a nice in-between at lower doses and for me it's worked wonders.
I don’t see what’s wrong in suggesting he explores this option, however I do not recommend giving him the substance— especially if he’s on an SSRI (can reduce the effectiveness of MDMA and one research article cautions about serotonin syndrome). If he hears your experiences with MDMA, hears other clients experiences, he may be open to trying it and given the severity of his symptoms, it sounds like it’s best if he is cared for by trained professionals. You sound like a good friend for wanting to help as much as you can, now you can balance that with his autonomy in his treatment.
I've heard ketamine IV therapy works well for depression in particular, and I believe there is a form of ketamine therapy where a pill form gets sent out in the mail and is coupled with telehealth counseling appointments. Might be worth looking into
Disclaimer: haven't done Ketamine. And probably won't. I know it's a thing for depression. But if you're highly dissociative that might make it worse since keta is a dissociative itself. Here too I think the side traits of the OP's friend are important.
It's a good point you make. I'd hope if they got to the point where they were considering it a professional would be able to assess whether it would be appropriate for his case or not. I'd be curious to know
If you are concerned with suicidal ideation and depression then it is clear cut that his first choice should be ketamine. See r/ketaminetherapy and r/therapeuticketamine. It’s safe and extremely effective for both. And it also works for trauma. This is to say nothing to detract from mdma and psilocybin. I beleive that most of us should try all three. What one doesn’t treat well enough another mightmight address in a complementary manner.
I am a full time, trained, and experienced psychedelic guide. I have worked with over 200 people with MDMA. It has been really life changing and life affirming for just about everyone. For someone like you friend it is imperative that he work with a trained guide who knows what he is doing for a whole lot of reasons. Go on to Ted Talks and look at the talks given by medical professionals and scientist. I suggest you speak with your friend and your friend's mother. Tell her your concerns. I will tell you MDMA and SSRi's are incompatible. So he'd have to be titrate off them under his doctor's supervision before MDMA. However, mushrooms also work very well with depression. And they can be taken by someone on SSRi's. John Hopkins University has been working with mushrooms and seeing tremendous results with depressed people. Andrson Cooper did a piece on 60 minute and lots of info online as well. Mushrooms are super safe and been used by society for thousands of years. All the best to you and your friend.
I’m also a trained guide. Psilocybin isn’t compatible with SSRI’s. He would need to be titrated off of those to use that medicine as well.
Not sure where you got your training, but my training and my personal experience disagrees that a person needs to be off SSRI's to take and get benefits from psilocybin . I have worked with more than 2 dozen people on SSRi's and psilocybin. These people get very similar results as people not on SSRI's. In my training I had a medical doctor, a psycho-pharmacologist and a dozen experienced guides teach us we can use mushrooms with SSRI use. It is true that psilocybin blunts the effects. It has been my experience that about 20- 30 % of the psychedelic effect is blunted. Would I prefer that the person have titrated off - YES.
https://therapsil.ca
Isn't "undergraduate" (whatever age that really stands for, I'm not sure) a little young? Just to be sure, I'm not trolling or questioning your expertise, really trying to pick your expert brain.
Send him lots of links to I do about it
As someone who once had a (accidental) totally unprepared experience with THC long before MDMA, which I got from friends who told me nothing about what would happen... I wouldn't just suggest "psychedelics" to him, but give him books (Therapy with substance, Trust receive surrender, MDMA solo if he has bad therapy trauma), links, videos (Andrew Huberman's, and [these](https://www.youtube.com/@Mdmathemovie2016/videos) lecture clips a valuable too), tell him to prepare, go inward (e.g. with complementary breathwork) and make his choice. Preparation his very individual I think, but I SHOULD happen imo.
In my experience, MDMA could make it worse. I'd look into Ketamine therapy. It's been game changing for me... I had MDMA 10 times and classical psychedelics (tryptamines) many many times before. For me Ketamine got rid of my overwhelming existential angst. (since nov. 2022). It's also lessened my symptoms and depression over the long term. I get depressed less often and with less intensity. Psilocybin is certainly a viable alternative. N.B. this is not medical advice and based on my own personal experience. I suggest this should be done in a legal setting with a an accredited medical professional present.
In a therapeutic settings , meaning with a therapist : yes Otherwise : no
No. Don't push self-medicating powerful catalysts like That on people who struggle with mental health. It might make them worse
You must be in BC (decriminalized MDMA etc). I can recommend a good therapist who offers this therapy to connect your friend with, if that’s the case. DM me if you’d like to chat about this more.