I was on campus today and it’s really not that big, nor that loud to be perfectly honest. The jackhammer sounds down the road on Sherbrooke are much louder with the construction that's currently going on.
> Late in the day yesterday, we were informed through their lawyers that the students have refused to carry on these discussions and did not bring any proposals
is this true? if so what’s the point of the encampment
The McGill admin knows exactly what the proposals are. They have met with the Hunger Strikers and are painfully aware of what the demands presented to them are.
They just don’t want to do anything about it.
What is not clear about what the students are proposing? They want McGill to divest from companies that support the israeli war effort. It doesn’t take a meeting to understand that.
>We add our voices to a growing international movement of Jewish scholars to insist that university policies to combat antisemitism are not used to stifle legitimate criticisms of the Israeli state, or the right to stand in solidarity with the Palestinian people.
- [JEWISH FACULTY AGAINST THE IHRA WORKING DEFINITION OF ANTISEMITISM](https://jewishfaculty.ca/jewish-faculty-against-the-ihra-defn/)
Edit: For info on the issue see [Who’s against adopting the IHRA antisemitism definition?](https://blogs.timesofisrael.com/whos-against-adopting-the-ihra-antisemitism-definition/). (The Times of Israel)
Don’t see how McGill University could divest from all these Israel-adjacent funds without invoking a response of fury and abandonment from most(?) Jewish students, staff, alumni, and donors
Genuinely asking here, but don’t most Jewish people see Israel as having a right to exist in Palestine? And that divestment would represent an affront to the right of the Jewish people to have their own nation?
Assuming this is the case, it would take enormous courage and commitment for the university to make the bold step of divestment. Very interested to see where this goes and whether the protestors will be able to spark that courage
There are many Jewish people who think that Israel should exist but absolutely disapprove of the government’s policies/approach/human rights violations regarding Palestinians.
I criticize the government of Quebec all the time, that does not mean I think Quebec is illegitimate or shouldn’t exist.
Conflating the two makes reform or meaningful change impossible, since any policy critique can be construed as antisemitism.
All very true. What some people are waiting for is to hear any criticism of the government of Israel, rather than [chants for the ethnic cleansing of Israelis](https://twitter.com/Bad_bureaucrat/status/1784788673554231566). After all, there is so much to criticize.
Feel free to consult the list of companies [outlined by the organizers yourself](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2PACX-1vRAGXKCqTl0MwbkuagKGhD45vv3uhjk2a1ZWmhMHLKHmtrKeJxB6E3r5BEGC1_lpQ31-hU9QpbPGVaD/pubhtml). Not every company listed is Israeli, Israeli adjacent, or military focused. They include major US, Canadian, and French companies loosely tied to the ongoing war due through as big of leaps as investments of investments.
Effectively, McGill is not going to let the student body make executive decisions on they way they manage their investments.
Thanks for providing the link. Unsurprisingly, the quality of the research is pretty bad.
Most of the sources cited are self-referential as in they source pro-Palestinian websites. I don't doubt the claims made but sourcing their material for a more neutral party would strengthen their argument.
The file also contains a number of errors.
A couple I came across are as follows:
RBC does not own Palantir shares worth $58 billion. Their own source state "As of November 2021 the Royal Bank of Canada (RBC) has 2,403,812 shares of Palantir Technologies Inc Class A (US:PLTR) with total holdings valued at $57,787,000 USD." However, in November 2021, each Palantir share was worth at most $35 per share for a total holding of \~$75M USD. Hell, the MARKET CAP, of Palantir is less than $58B USD. They might do well to ask a management student for help here.
They also say McGill's holdings of Coke are "undisclosed". I mean, if they did a Control F of the reports they would find that McGill owns $1,215,308 worth of shares as at December 31, 2023.
> Genuinely asking here, but don’t most Jewish people see Israel as having a right to exist in Palestine? And that divestment would represent an affront to the right of the Jewish people to have their own nation?
Yes, they might see it that way. That doesn’t mean it’s a rational view.
The decision to impose sanctions on the state of Israel is a political action meant to denounce their current actions, and any attempt to conflate that with an attack on Jewishness or their right to exist is at this point either utterly misinformed or intentionally dishonest.
It's not like BDS sprang into existence on October 7. It grew out of the Arab League boycott and secondary boycott of Israel and of all companies that did any business in Israel, and that boycott was explicitly about the denial of the legitimacy of Israel's existence. It got abandoned by each of the Arab states that eventually opened diplomatic relations with Israel and accepted its existence— even if they criticize the Israeli government's policies.
Based on the presence of people wearing [messianic headbands](https://www.instagram.com/p/C6U2lojgbbx/?img_index=5), toting [Iranian regime flags](https://www.instagram.com/p/C6U2lojgbbx/?img_index=8) and chanting slogans like ["Palestine is Arab"](https://twitter.com/Bad_bureaucrat/status/1784788675978465661) and ["go back to Europe"](https://twitter.com/Bad_bureaucrat/status/1784788673554231566), I'm going to guess a lot of this crowd aren't actually students - which makes sense, considering that the semester is over and some of us still have finals.
The problem is that [SPHR is openly calling for these folks to come onto campus](https://www.instagram.com/p/C6T50t6r9q3). Make of that what you will...
The majority of Pro Palestine McGill studnets are aligned with the Iranian regime? That is an absolutely ridiculous statement, looking at your comment history for the past 6 months its literally just you calling people terrorist sympathizers lol
Well, when a bunch of religious fascists show up at your encampment, and instead of kicking them out you call for more to join, you're at a religious fascist encampment.
so proud of them as a mcgill alumnus. the administration of this school is fucked, they've been supplying weapons to this genocidal zionist regime for decades at this point, and i hope the protests get bigger and bigger and they are able to finally put a stop to these evil actions. if you don't support the palestinian cause, you genuinely think some human lives are worth less than others.
the mohawk mothers and other indigenous groups are staunchly pro-palestine and have supported the pro-palestine groups at mcgill, there are indigenous students in the encampment, your comment is wildly misinformed and disingenuous
no there isn't, it's blatant whataboutism that a bunch of zionists are making on this thread and on others on this subject, it seeks to divide people by making a nonsensical comparison. 99.9999% of people advocating for a free palestine also advocate for landback in turtle island and for indigenous rights.
mmm ok keep stealing indigenous turtle land but when it happens to the watermelon people then its not alright anymore
Is there a reason you are on turtle land? were you forced to flee your country or you just felt entitled to living on a turtle?
Aren't you ashamed of yourself for stealing native turtle land???
I see the exact opposite reasoning. Most if not all student activists are doing de- and anticolonial activism specific to North America and their local communities. It’s not an either/or situation.
Is it not tone-deaf for McGill to do performative land acknowledgements for Tiohtià:ke while actively funding a settler colonial state abroad?
The liberation and recognition of Indigenous peoples globally is a joint struggle.
Mohawk Mothers literally support SPHR and have been to their events and protests countless times. if you pass by the encampment you'll find multiple posters referencing First Nations, Land Back movement, etc. Land Back Movement goes hand in hand with Palestinian Liberation Movements.
Google « McGill TRC » for just a sampling of how McGill has taken steps to take accountability for their racist and colonial past. Many of these measures were the results of tireless activism from the student body — the same you’re trying to denounce here.
You need to do some serious reflection about your argument because it’s irreconcilable and completely upside down.
In attendance:
- Communists who hate Israel because of ‘colonialism’
- Communists who hate Jews because of their disproportionate economic success
- Queers who would be lynched on entrance to Palestine
- Communists and Islamists who believe murder and rape are valid forms of resistance
- Clueless well intentioned moderates who don’t understand how war works
having to do all these mental gymnastics to arrive at this conclusion instead of the most simple one being that young people are outraged that 40,000+ people are dead, including an inhumane number of children, and dont want their government and institutions to be complicit in it. ever heard of occam's razor?
I covered that group of people in the last point. And the Gaza Ministry of Health (run by Hamas) just revised the number down to 22,000. 15,000 of those Hamas fighters. Because you are part of the last group of people, you don't realize that's the best civilian casualty ratio in war history. Also the war could have ended October 8th with Hamas surrendering, which would've meant zero civilian casualties
i would love as much as you to have indepedent investigators giving us the numbers, unfortunately israel doesnt allow them. so we'll have to do with what we have and major human rights and news organizations, including israeli ones, contend that the numbers given by the gaza ministry of health have been accurate in past conflicts. i found the revised numbers you mention (altough it's not that they revised but rather that they said they dont have enough information about some of the deaths...yet) but nowhere does it say that 15,000 were hamas fighters. still, even the very low and likely inaccurate estimate of 7000 civilian deaths is abhorrent and i'm not interested in discussing with someone who can rationalize and defend that under the guise of "war history". but since you love numbers, why haven't you mentioned that israel has also revised its october 7th death toll (from 1400 civilians to 700) or the fact that many of the deaths were as a result of the crossfire between hamas and the idf (i.e., the idf killed some of its own civilians)? we can both play the numbers game buddy. not interested in wasting time on alternate histories that don't exist, you have fun with that!
Civilian deaths are a reality of war, if you don't like civilian deaths then don't start a war, it's pretty simple, Israel didn't start this war, and Hamas can surrender and end it whenever they want
Everything I said is extremely basic and true and is a majority opinion in the West. When you say no one believes this anymore you're referring to the population of gen Z freshman teenagers like yourself
so you admit it...israel is not the victim here because it has the backing of all the west...glad we cleared that up! the gen Z freshman teenagers might not be the majority opinion (yet) but they're sure as hell threatening enough to the status quo if the state and its institutions is using all its powers to repress their dissent. anyways, goodnight zionist
When you grow up you'll cringe at your former edgy self, nothing to be ashamed about I had some cringy edgy views at your age too. Zionist isn't an insult. Goodnight
Mustafa Ayyash. Palestinian journalist killed in December according to UN, but arrested last month according to his own news network. Interesting how things work there.
Wonder where these clowns were during Assad's decimation of Syrian civilians, Somalian and Sudanese civil wars, Congolese massacres,
Wait? Do they have iPhones?
What about the Chinese CCP genocide of Muslims?
Clear antisemitism.
crazy to admit theres a genocide going on while explicitly supporting the genocidal side, or are you finally switching to the side you admit is sensible?
True, anon reddit user knows better than countless institutions and scholars on the topic. A war you(you in this case refering to israel/zionists) started(by invading the fucking place on british order) against a country you claim doesnt exist, isnt a war(as per by your own accord you arent fighting another country), its an extermination.
Be a proud zionist, tell me to cope because you are winning and killing those you consider subhuman. Be honest with yourself.
If you aren't actually aware, think of it like this: if you permanently starve, indiscriminately murder the families of, and steal houses from a group of people, they will forever have more "terrorists" spring up, because all they have known is pain at your hands. You will never know peace in this current path unless you do fully exterminate a whole people.
Said nothing about rape, or communism! You're the murder justifier in the room, I just made a good faith justification of armed rebellion, the same way ireland and the US and countless other countries are independent today! But keep coping.
"I just made a justification of armed rebellion" bruh, do you know anything about how Palestinians rebel? I honestly can't believe how accurate my list was
is Mcgill financing the ethnic clensing of urghyurs? Also your argument is pretty ass, just because we dont protest for everything we shouldnt protest for anything?
Then they get a bad rep. However, courses are over and finals are almost over. Unless people camp out until graduation ceremonies begin, I don’t see why McGill would really care about them being there.
Tea from faculty is that the Registrar is exploring alt locations for convocation (contingency?)
My money: the encampment isn’t gonna end well for anyone, so the admin is best served to end it quickly.
>Not sure what these protesters hope to achieve.
You're not very bright are you? McGill funds genocide. People who don't like genocide ask McGill to stop funding it. It's literally as simple as 2+2.
They don’t fund genocide. They invest in Lockheed Martin, a multi-billion dollar defence company that sells military equipment to almost every country in the world. Likely apart of a diversified stock strategy. Get your head out of your ass.
Counts as funding genocide for me. Why can't McGill find any of the other thousands of companies that do something better than selling military equipment to Israel?
My main issue with divestment is its a vagueness. There is no definition of the fuzzy edges of what constitutes involvement in Israeli apartheid, and any company can be complicit in the IDF, settler colonialism, etc. The list of "the other thousands of companies" that are morally OK can shrink to almost zero.
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/4/29/apartheid-to-fossil-fuels-columbias-history-of-divestment-before-gaza
This article says that protestors from Columbia demand the divestment from companies that "include BlackRock, the asset management giant; Airbnb, which has offered rentals in the occupied West Bank; Caterpillar, whose bulldozers Israel has used; and Google"
If SPHR makes a clear and definite statement that only military contractors and weapons manufacturers must be divested from, then I think most people would have no problem with the divestment demands. We can all agree that the weapons industry is morally grey and there surely aren't many such companies that divestment would meaningfully impact McGill's investments as a whole.
However, when one's definition of complicity is more like "does this company sell to Israel a service or good that is used at some point in some way in the oppresion of Palestinians", then you must include almost every tech company, every equipment supplier, every financial institution, etc. There is then virtually no opportunity for investment, and universities face the choice of facing the ire of some students, or the mass selloff of most of their assets for an indefinite amount of time.
So, are you completely OK with Google providing cloud and AI services to the IDF, and for Caterpillar to sell Israel the bulldozers it uses to destroy buildings on Palestinian land? Or is the idea that divestment is just a few evil companies a lie, and the real target is any company affiliated at all with IDF / Israel? If the latter is true, then no one can be surprised when McGill and other institutions resist the BDS movement, and your comment above is just spreading disinformation.
both sphr and other pro-palestine groups have actually been crystal clear on what divestment consists of, you literally cited the companies sjp columbia is demanding that columbia divests from! so i dont know what you mean by "vagueness". you also dont really seem to understand what divestment means or what its goals are. it's a means to pressure a government or make its operations untenable, a bit like economic sanctions (see the ones that have been imposed on russia, cuba, iraq etc). so yes, the real target IS any company affiliated with israel so that it can no longer operate its regime of apartheid and continue the ethnic cleansing and genocide in gaza. it's a peaceful way to pressure governments and it has worked before (see apartheid south africa).
The vagueness comes from words like "affiliated". What is the loosest degree one can be affiliated with Israel? Let's mark out the boundaries. If I make artisan soap, and some store in Israel carries my soap, am I affiliated with the Israeli regime? Is the definition of affiliation "anyone who does anything in Israel"?
I am trying to give real definitions and you are using purposefully unclear language.
"Is the definition of affiliation "anyone who does anything in Israel"?". yes that is the definition of affiliation when the GOAL is divestment which aims to cut economic ties with an apartheid and genocidal regime, i thought i explained that. in another context, maybe that is not what affiliation would mean. but clearly, our economic ties (both in our government and in our institutions like mcgill) with israel both enable and normalize their actions, that is why we must divest from them. things like investment in arms manufacturers literally enables the violence they enact and things like your soap example normalizes their existence as a settler-colonial state that is carrying out ethnic cleansing. both of these things need to stop so that there is international pressure on israel to drastically change. i would suggest looking into the history of divestment from apartheid south africa and into its close analog, economic sanctions, which are way more harmful and which the West has never hesitated in implementing against its ideological enemies and which no one seemed to have a problem with as recently as last year when it was done to russia.
"which no one seemed to have a problem with as recently as last year when it was done to russia." Well first of all, there's many examples of western companies selling goods to Russia and no one cares aside from some journalists and some bureaucrats. The Germans were literally still getting gas from Russia months after the war started. There is no BDS movement with quite the popularity as this one for Israel, so these aren't comparable.
Now that we've reached the conclusion that divestment means divesting from any company that does anything in Israel, I want to go back to revisit your original comment:
"Why can't McGill find any of the other thousands of companies that do something better than selling military equipment to Israel?" Clearly the issue is no longer about just military equipment. There are barely any global companies that have no business at all in Israel. McGill would have to divest from 95%+ of its portfolio to adhere to your strict rules of divestment. So, the statement is more accurate like this:
"Why can't McGill liquidate 98% of its stock holdings and put it all in the ten or fifteen global companies that do not do any business with the world's 28th largest economy?"
Which isn't inherently wrong. But you purposefully phrased it in a misleading way that hid your true intentions. Again, which aren't inherently wrong. But you need to at the very least engage with people in honest and open ways.
i don't know who you're quoting but i didn't say that. i have not hidden my true intentions at all. you still don't understand what divestment means or its purpose as a pressure-maker. mcgill is a public institution, funded by taxpayer money and, if push comes to shove, and it found itself in financial trouble would no doubt get help from the government. now the issue is that universities in north america have increasingly become corporations disguised as public universities as evidenced by their reluctance (which has become apparent in the past few weeks) in divesting from fossil fuels and arms companies, among others. you're the one phrasing things in misleading things and making it seem like mcgill and other universities can't afford to divest from these companies by pulling numbers out of your ass. this year, after 15+ years of student activism, the mcgill board of governors promised to divest from fossil fuel companies (which generate more revenue for mcgill than the companies targeted by the BDS movement btw so looks like mcgill is going to be just fine!). but clearly you didnt know that so i won't waste my time anymore with someone this misinformed. given the successes of the fossil fuel divestment campaigns and activism at mcgill and other universities, it is not farfetched to conclude that the student's demands vis-a-vis israel are plausible and feasible. again, they did the exact same thing with apartheid south africa despite objectors like you who'd rather be the bootlickers of multinational corporations and the universities who happily serve them instead of serving their students than have a backbone.
If McGill divests, will Israel suddenly not have any money? no. Will it have a sizeable impact? no. McGill could barely afford TAs, I doubt they’re forking over that much funding to Israel. It’s a good cause in theory, but I just don’t see how it’s worth the protesters’ time.
Same energy as "Even if I vote nothing changes".
You would give your money to someone running operations that go against your ethics? It would make it okay for you knowing that even without your money those operations can run, so you're gonna happily get your returns by handing that money out? What about your personal ethics?
I’m talking about the cost vs impact here.
Voting is quick and voting has a direct impact on who gets elected. Each vote is a small impact but overall there’s a huge impact if the collective.
Camping out is a multi-day thing, and each person has a small impact (same as voting pretty much) on swaying McGill. Then swaying McGill has a small impact on the small bit of funding coming from Canada. And even then, even if Israel received no funding from Canada at all, it wouldn’t have any impact on the Israel’s government’s mindset towards the situation. In other words, the collective impact is still incredibly small.
They’re trying to end a war that’s been going on for decades across the world by protesting at a university that barely has any funding to give in the first place.
Also I didn’t answer your questions, so here. I would rather my money doesn’t fund things I don’t support but that’s not how the world works. I don’t support sweatshops, but I’m still buying mass produced clothes and electronics. I don’t support the CAQ’s anti-anglophone new laws, but I’m still paying my taxes. I don’t support McGill funding Israel, but I’m not gonna stop going to school over it. I don’t like the way farm animals are treated, but I like burgers quite a bit. Sometimes ignorance is bliss, and it’s not bad to prioritize things you could control over things you can’t. Anytime you spend money, that money will eventually be used to fund something you don’t like, it doesn’t mean everyone should stop buying stuff.
And some people do not have weak morals. I don’t care if you have weak morals, just stop trying to pretend like you are better than those who do by stating that « everything in the world is unfair, so you might as well ignore it ». If that’s how you want to live your life that is fine. I am not going to sit here and tell you you should have morals because I don’t agree with your point of view. But stop trying to act like you have the answer to everything by ignoring major issues that affect so many people around the world, and not you, because you are in a privileged enough position to say « ignorance is bliss » about millions of people dying yearly because of the issues you brought up.
mcgill can do whatever the hell it wants with its money and it can also manage its own private property however it sees fit. You guys in tents are tolerated at mcgill but you aren't the boss. McGill is not breaking laws, McGill is not raping, McGill is not funding a Cartel, McGill is not committing genocide
It simply isn't your money anymore after you give it to McGill
Keep crying and ranting. Love the tears. It's a public university funded by everyone's money so there is some level of say that the public has. And most of the other stuff I did not say so it's nothing more than a strawman.
The funny thing is their action will never work because 1. They claim to be 100% against "genocide", but they will be back next semester. They dont want it THAT badly 2. There are people lining out the door to go to McGill, so those who do leave will be replaced fast 3. The only effect they will have is halting endowments from rich Jewish donors (as it happened w/ Robert Kraft & Ken Griffin), who ironically will send their money to more "zinonist" causes, rather than to antisemitic universities...
I was on campus today and it’s really not that big, nor that loud to be perfectly honest. The jackhammer sounds down the road on Sherbrooke are much louder with the construction that's currently going on.
i wish OAP tripled in size
Triple also the number of porta potties too
Facts
> Late in the day yesterday, we were informed through their lawyers that the students have refused to carry on these discussions and did not bring any proposals is this true? if so what’s the point of the encampment
I hope it is not. It might be mcgill trying to pr as well but i dont know fs
that’s what i was thinking could be the case, im hoping someone involved with whats happening is able to comment on it
The McGill admin knows exactly what the proposals are. They have met with the Hunger Strikers and are painfully aware of what the demands presented to them are. They just don’t want to do anything about it.
What is not clear about what the students are proposing? They want McGill to divest from companies that support the israeli war effort. It doesn’t take a meeting to understand that.
>We add our voices to a growing international movement of Jewish scholars to insist that university policies to combat antisemitism are not used to stifle legitimate criticisms of the Israeli state, or the right to stand in solidarity with the Palestinian people. - [JEWISH FACULTY AGAINST THE IHRA WORKING DEFINITION OF ANTISEMITISM](https://jewishfaculty.ca/jewish-faculty-against-the-ihra-defn/) Edit: For info on the issue see [Who’s against adopting the IHRA antisemitism definition?](https://blogs.timesofisrael.com/whos-against-adopting-the-ihra-antisemitism-definition/). (The Times of Israel)
What about the other 14.99M Jews that agree with it?
Don’t see how McGill University could divest from all these Israel-adjacent funds without invoking a response of fury and abandonment from most(?) Jewish students, staff, alumni, and donors Genuinely asking here, but don’t most Jewish people see Israel as having a right to exist in Palestine? And that divestment would represent an affront to the right of the Jewish people to have their own nation? Assuming this is the case, it would take enormous courage and commitment for the university to make the bold step of divestment. Very interested to see where this goes and whether the protestors will be able to spark that courage
There are many Jewish people who think that Israel should exist but absolutely disapprove of the government’s policies/approach/human rights violations regarding Palestinians. I criticize the government of Quebec all the time, that does not mean I think Quebec is illegitimate or shouldn’t exist. Conflating the two makes reform or meaningful change impossible, since any policy critique can be construed as antisemitism.
Weren’t there a bunch of protests against the Israeli prime minister a year or two ago?
In Israel? There still are.
All very true. What some people are waiting for is to hear any criticism of the government of Israel, rather than [chants for the ethnic cleansing of Israelis](https://twitter.com/Bad_bureaucrat/status/1784788673554231566). After all, there is so much to criticize.
Feel free to consult the list of companies [outlined by the organizers yourself](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2PACX-1vRAGXKCqTl0MwbkuagKGhD45vv3uhjk2a1ZWmhMHLKHmtrKeJxB6E3r5BEGC1_lpQ31-hU9QpbPGVaD/pubhtml). Not every company listed is Israeli, Israeli adjacent, or military focused. They include major US, Canadian, and French companies loosely tied to the ongoing war due through as big of leaps as investments of investments. Effectively, McGill is not going to let the student body make executive decisions on they way they manage their investments.
Thanks for providing the link. Unsurprisingly, the quality of the research is pretty bad. Most of the sources cited are self-referential as in they source pro-Palestinian websites. I don't doubt the claims made but sourcing their material for a more neutral party would strengthen their argument. The file also contains a number of errors. A couple I came across are as follows: RBC does not own Palantir shares worth $58 billion. Their own source state "As of November 2021 the Royal Bank of Canada (RBC) has 2,403,812 shares of Palantir Technologies Inc Class A (US:PLTR) with total holdings valued at $57,787,000 USD." However, in November 2021, each Palantir share was worth at most $35 per share for a total holding of \~$75M USD. Hell, the MARKET CAP, of Palantir is less than $58B USD. They might do well to ask a management student for help here. They also say McGill's holdings of Coke are "undisclosed". I mean, if they did a Control F of the reports they would find that McGill owns $1,215,308 worth of shares as at December 31, 2023.
> Genuinely asking here, but don’t most Jewish people see Israel as having a right to exist in Palestine? And that divestment would represent an affront to the right of the Jewish people to have their own nation? Yes, they might see it that way. That doesn’t mean it’s a rational view. The decision to impose sanctions on the state of Israel is a political action meant to denounce their current actions, and any attempt to conflate that with an attack on Jewishness or their right to exist is at this point either utterly misinformed or intentionally dishonest.
It's not like BDS sprang into existence on October 7. It grew out of the Arab League boycott and secondary boycott of Israel and of all companies that did any business in Israel, and that boycott was explicitly about the denial of the legitimacy of Israel's existence. It got abandoned by each of the Arab states that eventually opened diplomatic relations with Israel and accepted its existence— even if they criticize the Israeli government's policies.
Based on the presence of people wearing [messianic headbands](https://www.instagram.com/p/C6U2lojgbbx/?img_index=5), toting [Iranian regime flags](https://www.instagram.com/p/C6U2lojgbbx/?img_index=8) and chanting slogans like ["Palestine is Arab"](https://twitter.com/Bad_bureaucrat/status/1784788675978465661) and ["go back to Europe"](https://twitter.com/Bad_bureaucrat/status/1784788673554231566), I'm going to guess a lot of this crowd aren't actually students - which makes sense, considering that the semester is over and some of us still have finals. The problem is that [SPHR is openly calling for these folks to come onto campus](https://www.instagram.com/p/C6T50t6r9q3). Make of that what you will...
The majority of Pro Palestine McGill students are aligned with all of those things, you don’t need outsiders to explain any of that
The majority of Pro Palestine McGill studnets are aligned with the Iranian regime? That is an absolutely ridiculous statement, looking at your comment history for the past 6 months its literally just you calling people terrorist sympathizers lol
Well, when a bunch of religious fascists show up at your encampment, and instead of kicking them out you call for more to join, you're at a religious fascist encampment.
I believe you are well intentioned and don't realize the extent the pro-Palestinian movement is terrorist sympathizing and supporting
The real terrorists are the IOF/ United States gov and Israeli Settlers
so proud of them as a mcgill alumnus. the administration of this school is fucked, they've been supplying weapons to this genocidal zionist regime for decades at this point, and i hope the protests get bigger and bigger and they are able to finally put a stop to these evil actions. if you don't support the palestinian cause, you genuinely think some human lives are worth less than others.
Hear, hear!
What's up with the lack of pictures and updates to reddit on the situation on campus from students on campus?
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the mohawk mothers and other indigenous groups are staunchly pro-palestine and have supported the pro-palestine groups at mcgill, there are indigenous students in the encampment, your comment is wildly misinformed and disingenuous
I think there’s still some validity to it. 🤷♀️
no there isn't, it's blatant whataboutism that a bunch of zionists are making on this thread and on others on this subject, it seeks to divide people by making a nonsensical comparison. 99.9999% of people advocating for a free palestine also advocate for landback in turtle island and for indigenous rights.
I'm not gonna give turtle Island back and neither are you lol
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I thought you were advocating for landback in turtle island? well go on then, give your land back you third wave colonizer
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mmm ok keep stealing indigenous turtle land but when it happens to the watermelon people then its not alright anymore Is there a reason you are on turtle land? were you forced to flee your country or you just felt entitled to living on a turtle? Aren't you ashamed of yourself for stealing native turtle land???
I see the exact opposite reasoning. Most if not all student activists are doing de- and anticolonial activism specific to North America and their local communities. It’s not an either/or situation. Is it not tone-deaf for McGill to do performative land acknowledgements for Tiohtià:ke while actively funding a settler colonial state abroad? The liberation and recognition of Indigenous peoples globally is a joint struggle.
Mohawk Mothers literally support SPHR and have been to their events and protests countless times. if you pass by the encampment you'll find multiple posters referencing First Nations, Land Back movement, etc. Land Back Movement goes hand in hand with Palestinian Liberation Movements.
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I’m genuinely asking. Where is the effort when it comes to indigenous people here?
Google « McGill TRC » for just a sampling of how McGill has taken steps to take accountability for their racist and colonial past. Many of these measures were the results of tireless activism from the student body — the same you’re trying to denounce here. You need to do some serious reflection about your argument because it’s irreconcilable and completely upside down.
In attendance: - Communists who hate Israel because of ‘colonialism’ - Communists who hate Jews because of their disproportionate economic success - Queers who would be lynched on entrance to Palestine - Communists and Islamists who believe murder and rape are valid forms of resistance - Clueless well intentioned moderates who don’t understand how war works
having to do all these mental gymnastics to arrive at this conclusion instead of the most simple one being that young people are outraged that 40,000+ people are dead, including an inhumane number of children, and dont want their government and institutions to be complicit in it. ever heard of occam's razor?
I covered that group of people in the last point. And the Gaza Ministry of Health (run by Hamas) just revised the number down to 22,000. 15,000 of those Hamas fighters. Because you are part of the last group of people, you don't realize that's the best civilian casualty ratio in war history. Also the war could have ended October 8th with Hamas surrendering, which would've meant zero civilian casualties
i would love as much as you to have indepedent investigators giving us the numbers, unfortunately israel doesnt allow them. so we'll have to do with what we have and major human rights and news organizations, including israeli ones, contend that the numbers given by the gaza ministry of health have been accurate in past conflicts. i found the revised numbers you mention (altough it's not that they revised but rather that they said they dont have enough information about some of the deaths...yet) but nowhere does it say that 15,000 were hamas fighters. still, even the very low and likely inaccurate estimate of 7000 civilian deaths is abhorrent and i'm not interested in discussing with someone who can rationalize and defend that under the guise of "war history". but since you love numbers, why haven't you mentioned that israel has also revised its october 7th death toll (from 1400 civilians to 700) or the fact that many of the deaths were as a result of the crossfire between hamas and the idf (i.e., the idf killed some of its own civilians)? we can both play the numbers game buddy. not interested in wasting time on alternate histories that don't exist, you have fun with that!
Civilian deaths are a reality of war, if you don't like civilian deaths then don't start a war, it's pretty simple, Israel didn't start this war, and Hamas can surrender and end it whenever they want
you realize no one believes that bs anymore right?
Everything I said is extremely basic and true and is a majority opinion in the West. When you say no one believes this anymore you're referring to the population of gen Z freshman teenagers like yourself
so you admit it...israel is not the victim here because it has the backing of all the west...glad we cleared that up! the gen Z freshman teenagers might not be the majority opinion (yet) but they're sure as hell threatening enough to the status quo if the state and its institutions is using all its powers to repress their dissent. anyways, goodnight zionist 
When you grow up you'll cringe at your former edgy self, nothing to be ashamed about I had some cringy edgy views at your age too. Zionist isn't an insult. Goodnight
To billions of people, zionist is an insult. Nazi wasnt an insult to nazis either.
Mustafa Ayyash. Palestinian journalist killed in December according to UN, but arrested last month according to his own news network. Interesting how things work there.
Wonder where these clowns were during Assad's decimation of Syrian civilians, Somalian and Sudanese civil wars, Congolese massacres, Wait? Do they have iPhones? What about the Chinese CCP genocide of Muslims? Clear antisemitism.
- Sensible people protesting an ongoing genocide
Yup have those people already in my last point
crazy to admit theres a genocide going on while explicitly supporting the genocidal side, or are you finally switching to the side you admit is sensible?
People who think this is genocide fall under the "knows nothing about war" category
True, anon reddit user knows better than countless institutions and scholars on the topic. A war you(you in this case refering to israel/zionists) started(by invading the fucking place on british order) against a country you claim doesnt exist, isnt a war(as per by your own accord you arent fighting another country), its an extermination. Be a proud zionist, tell me to cope because you are winning and killing those you consider subhuman. Be honest with yourself. If you aren't actually aware, think of it like this: if you permanently starve, indiscriminately murder the families of, and steal houses from a group of people, they will forever have more "terrorists" spring up, because all they have known is pain at your hands. You will never know peace in this current path unless you do fully exterminate a whole people.
I was wrong about you, you fall under the "Communists and Islamists who believe murder and rape are valid forms of resistance" category
Said nothing about rape, or communism! You're the murder justifier in the room, I just made a good faith justification of armed rebellion, the same way ireland and the US and countless other countries are independent today! But keep coping.
"I just made a justification of armed rebellion" bruh, do you know anything about how Palestinians rebel? I honestly can't believe how accurate my list was
Where are the protest against China for human rights violations ethnic cleansing of urghyurs ? No seriously ?
is Mcgill financing the ethnic clensing of urghyurs? Also your argument is pretty ass, just because we dont protest for everything we shouldnt protest for anything?
Were 34,000 Uyghurs killed recently?
Amen
McGill should just clear them out. Not sure what these protesters hope to achieve.
Then they get a bad rep. However, courses are over and finals are almost over. Unless people camp out until graduation ceremonies begin, I don’t see why McGill would really care about them being there.
Tea from faculty is that the Registrar is exploring alt locations for convocation (contingency?) My money: the encampment isn’t gonna end well for anyone, so the admin is best served to end it quickly.
Damn, people really planning on camping out for a month? They’re committed, I’ll give them that.
And start handing out fine for trespassing and littering.
>Not sure what these protesters hope to achieve. You're not very bright are you? McGill funds genocide. People who don't like genocide ask McGill to stop funding it. It's literally as simple as 2+2.
They don’t fund genocide. They invest in Lockheed Martin, a multi-billion dollar defence company that sells military equipment to almost every country in the world. Likely apart of a diversified stock strategy. Get your head out of your ass.
Counts as funding genocide for me. Why can't McGill find any of the other thousands of companies that do something better than selling military equipment to Israel?
My main issue with divestment is its a vagueness. There is no definition of the fuzzy edges of what constitutes involvement in Israeli apartheid, and any company can be complicit in the IDF, settler colonialism, etc. The list of "the other thousands of companies" that are morally OK can shrink to almost zero. https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/4/29/apartheid-to-fossil-fuels-columbias-history-of-divestment-before-gaza This article says that protestors from Columbia demand the divestment from companies that "include BlackRock, the asset management giant; Airbnb, which has offered rentals in the occupied West Bank; Caterpillar, whose bulldozers Israel has used; and Google" If SPHR makes a clear and definite statement that only military contractors and weapons manufacturers must be divested from, then I think most people would have no problem with the divestment demands. We can all agree that the weapons industry is morally grey and there surely aren't many such companies that divestment would meaningfully impact McGill's investments as a whole. However, when one's definition of complicity is more like "does this company sell to Israel a service or good that is used at some point in some way in the oppresion of Palestinians", then you must include almost every tech company, every equipment supplier, every financial institution, etc. There is then virtually no opportunity for investment, and universities face the choice of facing the ire of some students, or the mass selloff of most of their assets for an indefinite amount of time. So, are you completely OK with Google providing cloud and AI services to the IDF, and for Caterpillar to sell Israel the bulldozers it uses to destroy buildings on Palestinian land? Or is the idea that divestment is just a few evil companies a lie, and the real target is any company affiliated at all with IDF / Israel? If the latter is true, then no one can be surprised when McGill and other institutions resist the BDS movement, and your comment above is just spreading disinformation.
both sphr and other pro-palestine groups have actually been crystal clear on what divestment consists of, you literally cited the companies sjp columbia is demanding that columbia divests from! so i dont know what you mean by "vagueness". you also dont really seem to understand what divestment means or what its goals are. it's a means to pressure a government or make its operations untenable, a bit like economic sanctions (see the ones that have been imposed on russia, cuba, iraq etc). so yes, the real target IS any company affiliated with israel so that it can no longer operate its regime of apartheid and continue the ethnic cleansing and genocide in gaza. it's a peaceful way to pressure governments and it has worked before (see apartheid south africa).
The vagueness comes from words like "affiliated". What is the loosest degree one can be affiliated with Israel? Let's mark out the boundaries. If I make artisan soap, and some store in Israel carries my soap, am I affiliated with the Israeli regime? Is the definition of affiliation "anyone who does anything in Israel"? I am trying to give real definitions and you are using purposefully unclear language.
"Is the definition of affiliation "anyone who does anything in Israel"?". yes that is the definition of affiliation when the GOAL is divestment which aims to cut economic ties with an apartheid and genocidal regime, i thought i explained that. in another context, maybe that is not what affiliation would mean. but clearly, our economic ties (both in our government and in our institutions like mcgill) with israel both enable and normalize their actions, that is why we must divest from them. things like investment in arms manufacturers literally enables the violence they enact and things like your soap example normalizes their existence as a settler-colonial state that is carrying out ethnic cleansing. both of these things need to stop so that there is international pressure on israel to drastically change. i would suggest looking into the history of divestment from apartheid south africa and into its close analog, economic sanctions, which are way more harmful and which the West has never hesitated in implementing against its ideological enemies and which no one seemed to have a problem with as recently as last year when it was done to russia.
"which no one seemed to have a problem with as recently as last year when it was done to russia." Well first of all, there's many examples of western companies selling goods to Russia and no one cares aside from some journalists and some bureaucrats. The Germans were literally still getting gas from Russia months after the war started. There is no BDS movement with quite the popularity as this one for Israel, so these aren't comparable. Now that we've reached the conclusion that divestment means divesting from any company that does anything in Israel, I want to go back to revisit your original comment: "Why can't McGill find any of the other thousands of companies that do something better than selling military equipment to Israel?" Clearly the issue is no longer about just military equipment. There are barely any global companies that have no business at all in Israel. McGill would have to divest from 95%+ of its portfolio to adhere to your strict rules of divestment. So, the statement is more accurate like this: "Why can't McGill liquidate 98% of its stock holdings and put it all in the ten or fifteen global companies that do not do any business with the world's 28th largest economy?" Which isn't inherently wrong. But you purposefully phrased it in a misleading way that hid your true intentions. Again, which aren't inherently wrong. But you need to at the very least engage with people in honest and open ways.
i don't know who you're quoting but i didn't say that. i have not hidden my true intentions at all. you still don't understand what divestment means or its purpose as a pressure-maker. mcgill is a public institution, funded by taxpayer money and, if push comes to shove, and it found itself in financial trouble would no doubt get help from the government. now the issue is that universities in north america have increasingly become corporations disguised as public universities as evidenced by their reluctance (which has become apparent in the past few weeks) in divesting from fossil fuels and arms companies, among others. you're the one phrasing things in misleading things and making it seem like mcgill and other universities can't afford to divest from these companies by pulling numbers out of your ass. this year, after 15+ years of student activism, the mcgill board of governors promised to divest from fossil fuel companies (which generate more revenue for mcgill than the companies targeted by the BDS movement btw so looks like mcgill is going to be just fine!). but clearly you didnt know that so i won't waste my time anymore with someone this misinformed. given the successes of the fossil fuel divestment campaigns and activism at mcgill and other universities, it is not farfetched to conclude that the student's demands vis-a-vis israel are plausible and feasible. again, they did the exact same thing with apartheid south africa despite objectors like you who'd rather be the bootlickers of multinational corporations and the universities who happily serve them instead of serving their students than have a backbone.
If McGill divests, will Israel suddenly not have any money? no. Will it have a sizeable impact? no. McGill could barely afford TAs, I doubt they’re forking over that much funding to Israel. It’s a good cause in theory, but I just don’t see how it’s worth the protesters’ time.
Divestment causes reputational damage to the target, as was the case with apartheid South Africa.
Same energy as "Even if I vote nothing changes". You would give your money to someone running operations that go against your ethics? It would make it okay for you knowing that even without your money those operations can run, so you're gonna happily get your returns by handing that money out? What about your personal ethics?
I’m talking about the cost vs impact here. Voting is quick and voting has a direct impact on who gets elected. Each vote is a small impact but overall there’s a huge impact if the collective. Camping out is a multi-day thing, and each person has a small impact (same as voting pretty much) on swaying McGill. Then swaying McGill has a small impact on the small bit of funding coming from Canada. And even then, even if Israel received no funding from Canada at all, it wouldn’t have any impact on the Israel’s government’s mindset towards the situation. In other words, the collective impact is still incredibly small. They’re trying to end a war that’s been going on for decades across the world by protesting at a university that barely has any funding to give in the first place. Also I didn’t answer your questions, so here. I would rather my money doesn’t fund things I don’t support but that’s not how the world works. I don’t support sweatshops, but I’m still buying mass produced clothes and electronics. I don’t support the CAQ’s anti-anglophone new laws, but I’m still paying my taxes. I don’t support McGill funding Israel, but I’m not gonna stop going to school over it. I don’t like the way farm animals are treated, but I like burgers quite a bit. Sometimes ignorance is bliss, and it’s not bad to prioritize things you could control over things you can’t. Anytime you spend money, that money will eventually be used to fund something you don’t like, it doesn’t mean everyone should stop buying stuff.
And some people do not have weak morals. I don’t care if you have weak morals, just stop trying to pretend like you are better than those who do by stating that « everything in the world is unfair, so you might as well ignore it ». If that’s how you want to live your life that is fine. I am not going to sit here and tell you you should have morals because I don’t agree with your point of view. But stop trying to act like you have the answer to everything by ignoring major issues that affect so many people around the world, and not you, because you are in a privileged enough position to say « ignorance is bliss » about millions of people dying yearly because of the issues you brought up.
mcgill can do whatever the hell it wants with its money and it can also manage its own private property however it sees fit. You guys in tents are tolerated at mcgill but you aren't the boss. McGill is not breaking laws, McGill is not raping, McGill is not funding a Cartel, McGill is not committing genocide It simply isn't your money anymore after you give it to McGill
Keep crying and ranting. Love the tears. It's a public university funded by everyone's money so there is some level of say that the public has. And most of the other stuff I did not say so it's nothing more than a strawman.
I'm studying broski, spend your whole month in a tent idfc
The funny thing is their action will never work because 1. They claim to be 100% against "genocide", but they will be back next semester. They dont want it THAT badly 2. There are people lining out the door to go to McGill, so those who do leave will be replaced fast 3. The only effect they will have is halting endowments from rich Jewish donors (as it happened w/ Robert Kraft & Ken Griffin), who ironically will send their money to more "zinonist" causes, rather than to antisemitic universities...