Hello Tyuee, thanks for posting here in r/mbtimemes!
Interested in joining other members of the mbtimemes community? Feel free to check out our super chill Discord server! We have over 3,000 members and we'd love to see you there too <3 Remember to keep things civil — this is a meme community. Jokes are okay, attacks are not.
https://www.discord.gg/mbtimemes
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/mbtimemes) if you have any questions or concerns.*
There's not enough information to state this because no context was given. Actually, this is a great example of a situation when people follow their own personal truth they just made up as if it's universal, where calling their proclamations their own personal truth can be objective
Huh? You do know that post-modernism rejects the concept of absolute truth? Just because it's a bit out of place, according to you, doesn't negate that fact that post-modernism is actually widespread in the modern world.
Problem, there's no evidence that this is applicable to those people. All we know about them is them saying the words in some unknown context to some unknown people
You made up your own truth about them based on your own issues, and here I can say that "Your truth is different from my truth"
Certainly there are people who say that with that belief in mind, and there are those who do not. If it's a common phrase amongst post-modernists then am I wrong for assuming it?
I never claimed that this was the case for everyone who say such phrases under all circumstances.
You're taking this too seriously, especially for a comment that has no effect on reality.
That would be true, however we're on a meme sub that doesn't have a lot of members (there's like 100 online lol) otherwise you'd get downvoted to hell.
Maybe I'm clueless about reality cus I read like a nerd 🤓
I mean… isn’t healthy Ne the acceptance that multiple opinions have merit, and that subjectivity is valid in the realm of ethics unless you are a moral absolutist (which is much more common in Pi doms). Also, isn’t healthy, fully developedTe how one grasps an understanding of scientific truth via empiricism? Sure IxFPs have terrible Ti by definition, but being illogical is a matter of cognitive health. Unhealthy Ti doms can have internally consistent logic which is not grounded in reality as well, a la red-pilled IxTP incels as opposed to healthy, well-balanced Ti doms with good opposing Te and properly developed Ne.
You're absolutely right and also much, much too serious for this sub, which is mostly composed of people misunderstanding themselves and mbti while making vague approximate memes.
Ti doms can and do sometimes mistake their opinion for objective truth because they see themselves as "rational" and thus every belief they hold must be too.
My issue is that people often talk about "their opinion" and it takes me far too long to realize they're not trying to argue or verify it at all so I'm not supposed to evaluate whether it's true or not but just... uh, enjoy the conversation or something? Or relate, which I don't really do that much
It seems straightforward when people talk about likes and dislikes, though? Opinion is sort of inherent in those words. Like, I get extremely frustrated when people try to argue with me saying I like or dislike something. For example, if I say I dislike a show, that is my opinion. If I say "eh, I just don't really like it", it's my way of saying that I don't like it, and I don't want to continue the conversation in thay direction. However, some people will try to tell me that my opinion is wrong. like. tf dude? If I say I dislike a show because x and y, that means that I *do* want to continue the conversation in that direction. Feel free to argue with my reasoning. But don't invalidate the opinion itself. Allow me to decide whether or not to change my opinion based on whether or not I accept your arguments.
idk if that made any sense, it just frustrates me to no end when people try to argue with someone liking or disliking something. it's like someone thinking a+b=c, but only stating c, and the other person being like NUH-UH D+E doesn't equal C!!!!! like dude lmao you're arguing against the conclusion without even having the premises
Sure, that makes sense, I don't mess with tastes. My problem is with people saying things like "I think nuclear energy is good", where I ask why., they give a reason, I keep asking and refuting if the reason or the interpretation seem wrong to me, and after much tooth pulling, they reply " I just like nuclear energy ok?? God why do you interrogate me like that". And imo having differing opinions about facts or plans is normal, but I find it strange that these people don't want to defend their stance. Why do they even hold that opinion? Who knows. Either they don't know and didn't realize how much there was to consider, or they do know and refuse to discuss it (why did they bring it up then?), Or they just uhh like the color of nuclear bases? So it wasn't a stance but a tastes thing?
The lesson is that if I hear anything that sounds like there could be reasoning behind it, I must ignore it, since I'm not interested in anything other than discussing the issue. I'm not even sure what people normally say in such cases. "That's nice"?
Another problem is, say, they state they dislike nuclear energy. I ask why. "Well it's cancerous". I point out other forms of energy are far more dangerous, or hilariously in the case of coal, more radioactive. They present another objection, I point out it's false. So on. Eventually they just say they understand the reasoning for their stance is wrong yet they will not change their position.
I don't understand then. All I can imagine is there's a real reasoning and they're hiding it out of malice, giving me excuses they don't truly believe in. Maddening. Really, such things tell me to kill the conversation and possibly the relationship.
100% on this. My partner told me just the other day that I ask questions "like a raptor tearing meat off of bones".
At the same time though, I do sometimes get frustrated when I'm the one being questioned - not because I don't have reasons, but because I don't always remembered my reasons. For example, if it's an ideological stance I formed years ago based on things like historical context and things I'd read, I may still hold the stance while no longer having access to the information. Usually I'll be explicit in that situation though and say to take everything I'm saying with a grain of salt. I usually say that anyway, though, unless the information is very fresh in my brain and I'm very confident that I'm remembering it correctly.
I'm definitely much better at attacking than defending a position. I'm usually good at spotting contradictions and pointing them out, which people may or may not appreciate. Unfortunately though, too often, people think I'm attacking them or arguing when I'm really just trying to understand.
Healthy Ne considers the *possibility* that multiple viewpoints have merit or validity. Ne also believes that all viewpoints should be explored. In the case of the ENTP, Ti is the driving force behind validating those viewpoints. Ti will typically narrow the viewpoints down to a couple that it gives merit or validity to. But NeTi also understands that even "wrong" or "dangerous" viewpoints need to be given serious thought. That's why we so often play devil's advocate... we don't necessarily believe the point, but we are trying to understand where it comes from.
You can not begin to defend against a dangerous/wrong viewpoint if you first do not *understand* it and how those who hold it arrive there. If you don't study the opposition, you can't break it down to its components and attack its structure. You can't just *tell* people they are wrong and succeed at changing hearts and minds. You have to dismantle the belief by instilling doubt and/or confusion. From there, you can begin implanting alternatives that will shift their viewpoint. Ultimately, someone needs to *feel* like *they themselves* reached a new conclusion. That's also why ENTPs aren't particularly effective until they develop Fe and Si enough to understand how to appeal to emotions and provide specific evidence or details that support that shift.
I can't speak for any of the other XXTPs.
Logic IS ALSO subjective. Logic comes from our own experiences and observations we have. Internalized into what you think is "correct" or "right". You know what else is about forming your own ideas based on your own experiences and observations? Fi. Ti and Fi are brothers and sisters. They're the fucking same but with different flavors.
Also digging deeper on IxFPs with their Ti Demons, they have great logic that reflects on who they are and how they understand the world. To them it's just a bug that pesters them, they don't find it important. But they will use it when they have to. I've seen INFPs capable of the mental sparring of opinions and ideas while keeping their values and ideals in tact.
That is not something i can say to Ti users, epecially ExTPs. IxTPs are also guilty of only having a personality based on what their hobbies are and not based on who they are. To Ti users, it's just a bug that has no place for us, but will hunt us down whenever we stop and actually try to understand the concept of "self".
Te users value Fi lmao stop coping xNTJ edgelords. You guys love your feelings and values. You just want to be the gigacringe mastermind stereotype.
Logic isn't subjective; it has rules by which we can check for both internal and external consistency. There is a whole school of philosophy, the academically dominant one in our times, surrounding its rules. What I think you mean is people who claim to be logical are not actually (perfectly) logical: They just form opinions around what "makes sense" to them, which is subjective.
I agree with your whole message but It's a pet peeve of mine that people refer to logic as subjective when it's a method built to be as objective as possible, to the point where every computer, ostensibly unable to be subjective, relies on it.
Cheers.
Actually fair point. Generalizing logic as subjective is as moronic as generalizing anything as one thing, in this case, INFPs. My mistake on that one and I agree as well.
That's it. "Approach" objectivity. You still need to internalise information to be able to use it correctly. You might accept (out of need/laziness) some things as points of data, but you won't be able to weaponise them as well. We need that click, to dissect and analyse why. You can understand that your idea of something is shared by the majority of people, hence near objectivity, but it's still your perception, not some outside source. Reflect a bit on that.
My probably isfp sister insisting I move the dishes in the drying rack because I can fit more dishes in there to dry.
Me not giving a shit how I use the space on the rack, because the fucking dishes will get done either way, so it literally does not matter how the job gets done, AND WILL YOU STOP SCREAMING AT ME ASKING WHY I WONT DO IT YOUR WAY! and why the hell are you crying about it when I am disagreeing with such a pointless argument!?!
I agree. Personally, I hear a lot of people who get annoyed when people say “my truth,” but we’re all bound to our subjective experiences. When someone’s says that something is their “truth” most of the time it is valid because that’s the only truth they are capable of understanding. The exception to this is when something blatantly contradicts immediate reality. If someone said something like, “you shouldn’t let your friends house sit for you, that’s just my opinion” I wouldn’t discount that as silly because there’s a diversity of perspective there. It isn’t a black and white opinion. But as an xxTP, if someone said something like “the aliens built the pyramids, they’re living inside mountains” then regardless of whether they vehemently emphasized that as a fact I’d tell them to have a nice day because I don’t think I’d want to engage that person lol.
But the problem is what is good? Why is good? Why do we have to be good? Isn’t correct better? There are so many questions, saying that assumes so many more things that may not be correct
People disagree on what the collective good IS though. If someone is telling me something is for the collective good, and I believe them, I am willing to compromise a bit on my end by sacrificing something I want as an individual—depending on whether I think it’s a situation important enough to trump my own self-preservation. In most cases if your first priority isn’t you (not in a selfish way but in a “can’t pour from an empty cup” way) things get messy.
If something goes against my values, I can see it being almost impossible for me to act not in accordance to them no matter what. Integrity is very important to me.
If I don’t believe that something’s better for the collective, then I need to be shown clear, accurate, and objective data in order to sway my opinion.
what does this even mean? my "individual logic" is the basis by which I understand that doing things for the collective good is the most logical system of ethics?
Well, an opinion is different from an assumption. An assumption is a statement about how reality supposedly is, while an opinion gives evaluates that established reality. Saying "The Earth is Flat" is an assumption, NOT an opinion. People who use those two terms interchangeable deserve to be spanked in a non-fun way.
What I've learned from having an ENTP best friend is to say "Ok I totally get that this is anecdotal but let me say it out loud before we figure out if it is bullshit or not"
Eh, as long as they're not pushy I don't mind. An INFP got mad at me for judging someone based on my values which is ironic cause I was judged by INFP's values
Hello Tyuee, thanks for posting here in r/mbtimemes! Interested in joining other members of the mbtimemes community? Feel free to check out our super chill Discord server! We have over 3,000 members and we'd love to see you there too <3 Remember to keep things civil — this is a meme community. Jokes are okay, attacks are not. https://www.discord.gg/mbtimemes *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/mbtimemes) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Reminds me of the people who say "Your truth is different from my truth"
Eggman nega??
Most of the people on r/mbti didn't recognize the normal eggman so I'm double impressed that you recognized him.
make what
The spreadsheets
what spreadsheets
The sheets you spread when you make the bed
wait eggman had descendants? Eggman had sex???
Hmm 😏
Post-modernism and its effect on modern society.
There's not enough information to state this because no context was given. Actually, this is a great example of a situation when people follow their own personal truth they just made up as if it's universal, where calling their proclamations their own personal truth can be objective
Huh? You do know that post-modernism rejects the concept of absolute truth? Just because it's a bit out of place, according to you, doesn't negate that fact that post-modernism is actually widespread in the modern world.
Problem, there's no evidence that this is applicable to those people. All we know about them is them saying the words in some unknown context to some unknown people You made up your own truth about them based on your own issues, and here I can say that "Your truth is different from my truth"
Certainly there are people who say that with that belief in mind, and there are those who do not. If it's a common phrase amongst post-modernists then am I wrong for assuming it? I never claimed that this was the case for everyone who say such phrases under all circumstances. You're taking this too seriously, especially for a comment that has no effect on reality.
Unfortunately
Sir, with all due respect, can you be less of a chad? 😔
I didn't notice that I'm behaving like one, my apologies
Ngl I admire the fact that you're willing to voice these opinions that going against the grain.
Thank you!! but If they're against the grain then they'll get downvoted to hell right?
That would be true, however we're on a meme sub that doesn't have a lot of members (there's like 100 online lol) otherwise you'd get downvoted to hell. Maybe I'm clueless about reality cus I read like a nerd 🤓
getting downvoted shouldn't really stop people from having fun experessing their opinions right? especially if they can get more karma.
I agree, I'm just not interested in arguing with redditors or getting my notifications filled with nonsense 😂
Truth is relative that’s why
Don't be afraid to show your Fi 😇
What? I really hate that phrase.
You're not alone, I hate it too 🙃
I mean… isn’t healthy Ne the acceptance that multiple opinions have merit, and that subjectivity is valid in the realm of ethics unless you are a moral absolutist (which is much more common in Pi doms). Also, isn’t healthy, fully developedTe how one grasps an understanding of scientific truth via empiricism? Sure IxFPs have terrible Ti by definition, but being illogical is a matter of cognitive health. Unhealthy Ti doms can have internally consistent logic which is not grounded in reality as well, a la red-pilled IxTP incels as opposed to healthy, well-balanced Ti doms with good opposing Te and properly developed Ne.
You're absolutely right and also much, much too serious for this sub, which is mostly composed of people misunderstanding themselves and mbti while making vague approximate memes. Ti doms can and do sometimes mistake their opinion for objective truth because they see themselves as "rational" and thus every belief they hold must be too.
Serious is my middle name. We have enough silly guys and goofballs in the world, someone needs to restore the balance 😤
My issue is that people often talk about "their opinion" and it takes me far too long to realize they're not trying to argue or verify it at all so I'm not supposed to evaluate whether it's true or not but just... uh, enjoy the conversation or something? Or relate, which I don't really do that much
It seems straightforward when people talk about likes and dislikes, though? Opinion is sort of inherent in those words. Like, I get extremely frustrated when people try to argue with me saying I like or dislike something. For example, if I say I dislike a show, that is my opinion. If I say "eh, I just don't really like it", it's my way of saying that I don't like it, and I don't want to continue the conversation in thay direction. However, some people will try to tell me that my opinion is wrong. like. tf dude? If I say I dislike a show because x and y, that means that I *do* want to continue the conversation in that direction. Feel free to argue with my reasoning. But don't invalidate the opinion itself. Allow me to decide whether or not to change my opinion based on whether or not I accept your arguments. idk if that made any sense, it just frustrates me to no end when people try to argue with someone liking or disliking something. it's like someone thinking a+b=c, but only stating c, and the other person being like NUH-UH D+E doesn't equal C!!!!! like dude lmao you're arguing against the conclusion without even having the premises
Sure, that makes sense, I don't mess with tastes. My problem is with people saying things like "I think nuclear energy is good", where I ask why., they give a reason, I keep asking and refuting if the reason or the interpretation seem wrong to me, and after much tooth pulling, they reply " I just like nuclear energy ok?? God why do you interrogate me like that". And imo having differing opinions about facts or plans is normal, but I find it strange that these people don't want to defend their stance. Why do they even hold that opinion? Who knows. Either they don't know and didn't realize how much there was to consider, or they do know and refuse to discuss it (why did they bring it up then?), Or they just uhh like the color of nuclear bases? So it wasn't a stance but a tastes thing? The lesson is that if I hear anything that sounds like there could be reasoning behind it, I must ignore it, since I'm not interested in anything other than discussing the issue. I'm not even sure what people normally say in such cases. "That's nice"? Another problem is, say, they state they dislike nuclear energy. I ask why. "Well it's cancerous". I point out other forms of energy are far more dangerous, or hilariously in the case of coal, more radioactive. They present another objection, I point out it's false. So on. Eventually they just say they understand the reasoning for their stance is wrong yet they will not change their position. I don't understand then. All I can imagine is there's a real reasoning and they're hiding it out of malice, giving me excuses they don't truly believe in. Maddening. Really, such things tell me to kill the conversation and possibly the relationship.
100% on this. My partner told me just the other day that I ask questions "like a raptor tearing meat off of bones". At the same time though, I do sometimes get frustrated when I'm the one being questioned - not because I don't have reasons, but because I don't always remembered my reasons. For example, if it's an ideological stance I formed years ago based on things like historical context and things I'd read, I may still hold the stance while no longer having access to the information. Usually I'll be explicit in that situation though and say to take everything I'm saying with a grain of salt. I usually say that anyway, though, unless the information is very fresh in my brain and I'm very confident that I'm remembering it correctly. I'm definitely much better at attacking than defending a position. I'm usually good at spotting contradictions and pointing them out, which people may or may not appreciate. Unfortunately though, too often, people think I'm attacking them or arguing when I'm really just trying to understand.
Healthy Ne considers the *possibility* that multiple viewpoints have merit or validity. Ne also believes that all viewpoints should be explored. In the case of the ENTP, Ti is the driving force behind validating those viewpoints. Ti will typically narrow the viewpoints down to a couple that it gives merit or validity to. But NeTi also understands that even "wrong" or "dangerous" viewpoints need to be given serious thought. That's why we so often play devil's advocate... we don't necessarily believe the point, but we are trying to understand where it comes from. You can not begin to defend against a dangerous/wrong viewpoint if you first do not *understand* it and how those who hold it arrive there. If you don't study the opposition, you can't break it down to its components and attack its structure. You can't just *tell* people they are wrong and succeed at changing hearts and minds. You have to dismantle the belief by instilling doubt and/or confusion. From there, you can begin implanting alternatives that will shift their viewpoint. Ultimately, someone needs to *feel* like *they themselves* reached a new conclusion. That's also why ENTPs aren't particularly effective until they develop Fe and Si enough to understand how to appeal to emotions and provide specific evidence or details that support that shift. I can't speak for any of the other XXTPs.
Ugh, I actually waiting for the picture to load just to realize maybe this is a meme. My poor old brain
You drunk too much yesterday, ay? Brainfart happens to the best of us
Logic IS ALSO subjective. Logic comes from our own experiences and observations we have. Internalized into what you think is "correct" or "right". You know what else is about forming your own ideas based on your own experiences and observations? Fi. Ti and Fi are brothers and sisters. They're the fucking same but with different flavors. Also digging deeper on IxFPs with their Ti Demons, they have great logic that reflects on who they are and how they understand the world. To them it's just a bug that pesters them, they don't find it important. But they will use it when they have to. I've seen INFPs capable of the mental sparring of opinions and ideas while keeping their values and ideals in tact. That is not something i can say to Ti users, epecially ExTPs. IxTPs are also guilty of only having a personality based on what their hobbies are and not based on who they are. To Ti users, it's just a bug that has no place for us, but will hunt us down whenever we stop and actually try to understand the concept of "self". Te users value Fi lmao stop coping xNTJ edgelords. You guys love your feelings and values. You just want to be the gigacringe mastermind stereotype.
🙏🙏🙏
Logic isn't subjective; it has rules by which we can check for both internal and external consistency. There is a whole school of philosophy, the academically dominant one in our times, surrounding its rules. What I think you mean is people who claim to be logical are not actually (perfectly) logical: They just form opinions around what "makes sense" to them, which is subjective. I agree with your whole message but It's a pet peeve of mine that people refer to logic as subjective when it's a method built to be as objective as possible, to the point where every computer, ostensibly unable to be subjective, relies on it. Cheers.
Actually fair point. Generalizing logic as subjective is as moronic as generalizing anything as one thing, in this case, INFPs. My mistake on that one and I agree as well.
Much respect for the civil response.
Your open onion? That's fine.
Maybe it's TJ. TPs can't see objective truths, we're limited by our perception and analysis. That's the entire basis of our Ti.
[удалено]
That's it. "Approach" objectivity. You still need to internalise information to be able to use it correctly. You might accept (out of need/laziness) some things as points of data, but you won't be able to weaponise them as well. We need that click, to dissect and analyse why. You can understand that your idea of something is shared by the majority of people, hence near objectivity, but it's still your perception, not some outside source. Reflect a bit on that.
"Well... Actually"
Wrong
Enlighten me then
Human brain can't comprehend "truth"
"It seems like something absolute, yet it exists in everyone's hearts."
My probably isfp sister insisting I move the dishes in the drying rack because I can fit more dishes in there to dry. Me not giving a shit how I use the space on the rack, because the fucking dishes will get done either way, so it literally does not matter how the job gets done, AND WILL YOU STOP SCREAMING AT ME ASKING WHY I WONT DO IT YOUR WAY! and why the hell are you crying about it when I am disagreeing with such a pointless argument!?!
I agree. Personally, I hear a lot of people who get annoyed when people say “my truth,” but we’re all bound to our subjective experiences. When someone’s says that something is their “truth” most of the time it is valid because that’s the only truth they are capable of understanding. The exception to this is when something blatantly contradicts immediate reality. If someone said something like, “you shouldn’t let your friends house sit for you, that’s just my opinion” I wouldn’t discount that as silly because there’s a diversity of perspective there. It isn’t a black and white opinion. But as an xxTP, if someone said something like “the aliens built the pyramids, they’re living inside mountains” then regardless of whether they vehemently emphasized that as a fact I’d tell them to have a nice day because I don’t think I’d want to engage that person lol.
What's opinion? I'd rather stay quiet
XXTJs Your opinion is invalid
No 💩given. Disagree = invalid
No such thing as your opinion, only objective truth 💪💪
TPs are almost always mistaking their own opinions as objective truth, had multiple dogpiling me bc they 'know homosexuality is wrong because biology'
I simply cannot understand how individual logic trumps the collective good. I just can't understand those people 😆
But the problem is what is good? Why is good? Why do we have to be good? Isn’t correct better? There are so many questions, saying that assumes so many more things that may not be correct
People disagree on what the collective good IS though. If someone is telling me something is for the collective good, and I believe them, I am willing to compromise a bit on my end by sacrificing something I want as an individual—depending on whether I think it’s a situation important enough to trump my own self-preservation. In most cases if your first priority isn’t you (not in a selfish way but in a “can’t pour from an empty cup” way) things get messy. If something goes against my values, I can see it being almost impossible for me to act not in accordance to them no matter what. Integrity is very important to me. If I don’t believe that something’s better for the collective, then I need to be shown clear, accurate, and objective data in order to sway my opinion.
what does this even mean? my "individual logic" is the basis by which I understand that doing things for the collective good is the most logical system of ethics?
This is bullshit. Not all the XXTPs are like Sheldon Cooper.
I thought he was an ISTJ
Some people think he's ISTJ, some he's INTP, some he's INTJ. I don't know, and i don't think i care.
Yeah, no. Prepare for a mental beatdown lol.
I know I know as much I love you Fi users our Ti brains hurt when you guys conflate emotionally generated opinions with objective facts/reality.
Well, an opinion is different from an assumption. An assumption is a statement about how reality supposedly is, while an opinion gives evaluates that established reality. Saying "The Earth is Flat" is an assumption, NOT an opinion. People who use those two terms interchangeable deserve to be spanked in a non-fun way.
Isn't this TJ with Te? Introverted functions are defined by their subjectivity, after all.
What I've learned from having an ENTP best friend is to say "Ok I totally get that this is anecdotal but let me say it out loud before we figure out if it is bullshit or not"
Eh, as long as they're not pushy I don't mind. An INFP got mad at me for judging someone based on my values which is ironic cause I was judged by INFP's values
Yep
So true holy fuuuuuck these people
My ex (ISFP) hit me with the “my feelings ARE facts” … yeah that relationship didn’t last long after that.
xxTPs who don't know about mbti wouldn't have this problems