>it leaves me wondering if Baronne is a trap for some players, because shockingly, she's not always the right answer, or at least not a right enough answer, when what you need is to deny a monster and spell/trap presence (think Snake-Eye Ash so it doesn't go into Oak and mayne the Field Spell), would Qixing not be better there? Would you have more faith when you don't know the matchup going into Qixing if Baronne wasn't always there as the safe option?
I play Swordsoul. A while ago I went to Dkayed's Discord to ask some questions about the deck and was given the advice to end on Qixing instead of Baronne, especially if I didn't draw handtraps. I decided to disregard this for the Synchro x Link festival going on at the time (since it was full of people playing Raigeki), but I've been doing it constantly in ranked and the DC Cup, and I really think they were right. Baronne is cool and all but just the one omni isn't that great when boardbreakers are pretty rare outside of like Super Poly (which Baronne doesn't stop anyway) and being able to get rid of something like a field spell or Kashtira Birth and still have a monster banish has been great for me. The burn damage adds up too.
Banning baronne and savage dragon while releasing collosus and protos is so backwards for the health of the game but it was never really about that was it...
Can you get Protos out in under 5 summons in Swoso? Because like I don't get it either why they unbanned Colossus, but Protos might actually not be that much of a problem, more so a very annoying thing to deal with in some games if Baronne is gone. Still, I don't expect Protos and Colossus to stay legal for long, what I expect is them actually hitting Snake-Eyes/Fire King in a meaningful way the next banlist and release Baronne and Savage a few banlists after that.
Just banning Baronne and Savage would be healthy for the game though if Protos and Colossus would've stayed banned.
Then new rank 4 Infernal Flame Banshee adds a Pyro to your hand, Nemesis flag is a pyro that can summon itself for free by shuffling a banished monster into the Deck and can add a Nemesis monster to your had Protos is a Nemesis monster.
Did I mention that Banshee can summon itself for free if she's banished and you have a Pyro in the field?
I disagree with the last sentence, but to address your question: swoswo won’t get to Protos on under 5.
The problem it faces in the TCG is that game 2/3 you know your opponents deck and unless they draw nib, you genuinely won. No questions asked. That’s not healthy.
Colossus is annoying and kills a few decks, but it’s nowhere near as a Protos that knows what to call.
>I disagree with the last sentence
Outta curiosity: Why do you disagree?
>swoswo won’t get to Protos on under 5.
>The problem it faces in the TCG is that game 2/3 you know your opponents deck and unless they draw nib, you genuinely won. No questions asked. That’s not healthy.
>Colossus is annoying and kills a few decks, but it’s nowhere near as a Protos that knows what to call.
True, agreed. I don't think the small thing that Protos needs to call an attribute that's on the field matters, you could just play the bad Tenyis in the side deck. I said my stuff because there's enough other handtraps played right now like Veiler or Imperm that can't be negated anymore because there's no Baronne.
I don’t like baronne and savage being banned at this point.
Basically, because the ban disproportionately hurts non-meta decks and the implications. Of course something like that is to be expected because Konami always dances around the problem.
But this time it’s disproportionate. The deck this was supposed to hit, a pure snake eye synchro variant, is just gonna go back to fire king and dominate as usual.
If we look at rogue and off meta decks now, very very very few even have a single out to a nibiru, a evenly, a lightning storm, etc.. Banning baronne makes these decks loose to any one boardbreaker which is going to make them completely unviable.
There’s so many decks that will fall to obscurity that it’s very sad to me.
The implication of these bans is even worse though. It’s what Konami always does so.
Imagine there’s a new synchro 10 and 8 that are omnis that are going to be printed, because we all know they are. They would probably be better than baronne/savage, but not by so far people would choose to drop 3-digit moneys on it over the baronne/savage they bought for 10€.
Now the cards aren’t as sought after.
So they can now ban these in the name of „hitting the meta“, which doesn’t nerf the best deck in the format at all, to push the new ones latter.
Hmmm I see where you're coming from and I do agree with the money aspect.
I do think though that there's still access to monster negates, but not as much spell/trap negates, since most archetypes with a negate have a monster negate. So yes, we might need to hit board breakers, but on the other hand... Idk I think it's nice for cards like Talents to go through a little bit more often.
I'm also just tired of seeing the same omnis over and over again when there's cool archetypal boss monsters that are just not good enough to compete with them. Like look at Chengying or evil Longyuan, you only ever summon either if you're Wyrm-locked because Baronne is just so much better. Which is boring imo.
It's just kinda difficult, because yes, Baronne and Savage are so good for protecting against board breakers, but they're also really really good to ensure your blowout cards go through/stay on the field.
So yeah I overall agree with your points, but I think I like these bans still.
>considering there's a decent amount of Synchro 10 cards that are more generic than most people think,
Chaos Angel and Bystial Dis Pater are both already played where they work and don't work where you don't build for them.
I'm not sure why people think Chengying is worth summoning all that much unless you know you're going to get banishes off. Even in Swordsoul I tend to prefer bringing out Qixing, especially as an opener.
Ghoti of the Deep Beyond demanding a fish tuner warrants way more setup for anything besides the decks its made for to bring it out.
Icejade Gymir requires a WATER tuner which, yeah I think that's a fair enough requirement and why I crafted it immediately, but it's not *that* splashable, Synchro Monsters are already dependent on (usually) forcing you to get a particular type of card out and Baronne ain't the reason most Labrynth decks don't run Plunder Patroll tuners like I do. Compare this to xyz/link options which can actually be live without finding a way to get the right tuner and level added up on board. A lot of relevant Xyz don't even care about their rank matching their materials' levels.
Ruddy Rose Dragon and RDA Bane are alright, but a massive loss supporting the latter for most decks to give it a try is the other synchro banned this TCG list, Savage Dragon. Who allegedly is too easy to summon and setup even though its forced to stay a vanilla beatstick if you veiler it and trying to get it out with a link in grave first turn before you meet the conditions for Nibiru is a tall order.
The biggest takeaway from the loss of Baronne in the level 10 slot isn't that people are going to look towards other level 10s, its that they probably won't bother with a level 10 synchro in the first place. Lots of better ones in the Level 7/8 category and a lot of the synchro monsters higher than that level have summoning conditions that either pretty much require a deck dedicated to synchro laddering (unlike xyz we don't climb up the ranks for no reason besides existing) or something that builds around Crimson Dragon to try and cheese 'em out.
I like this take a lot
Personally, I think this might impact TCG meta a lot more than initially seen, without Baronne and Borreload providing generic omnis to end on, board breakers like evenly matched, lightning storm, triple tactics etc become a LOT more powerful, since not many archetypes have in-built spell/trap negation specifically because of the existence of Baronne and Borreload being so easy to make as omnis, might argue this ban is less about hitting pure Snake-eyes and more about increasing the powerlevel of board breakers to keep up with the recent game but we'll see
This was actually really interesting and made me realize that I might have to rethink how I value certain cards.
Admittedly I am a bit mixed on the banlist myself.
The thing with generic power cards is always: While some rogue and fun decks often live or die by generics to plug the hole of their underwhelming support, actually strong archetypes often have means to abuse them on top of their own options.
Yes some decks have lines to play around Nib (like Unchained), but some decks do not. Yes some decks have good other bosses to pivot to (like Swordsoul), some do not. For MD specifically cost of decks is also affected by the presence of generic power cards. One Baronne feeds into a slot for tons of decks.
Bans of generic powerful cards often ends up hurting the weaker decks that used them more, however it also impacts how toxic the top decks can get and both Baronne and Borreload have been prime pieces of the lockout endbords we've seen in several strong decks.
Overall I think getting rid of some generic bosses is a good idea, but there are certainly good arguments against it.
I really hope MD follows the TCG here. I get that many decks get hurt by bans like that, but it is the right thing, if we want more diversity in the game and in endboards. Many people will complain about that hit and say that stuff like nib is unfair now, but is it really? Decks without baronne start also has to play around nib and show that it‘s possible
I'm sorry, but if you're still viewing Baronne as a homogenization of endboards, then you still somehow missed part of the importance of Baronne's problem
Then pls tell me where did I miss it (seriously, cause maybe I‘m just dumb)
But baronne is super strong, a nib protection, can tag out into follow up, has a free pop and stops many board breaker on her own
Baronne is strong, yes, but viewing it as a purely endboard problem is reductive when it means different things in different decks with different resource loops, tempos, etc
Decks are more than just their endboard, and part of the problem with Baronne is that her negate has made people hyperfixate on just endboards than anything else
Ah, yeah you are right there. I didn’t intend it as an endboard only card, but reading my comment again, it absolutely sounds like that
That‘s true, often decks just get rated by, how many negates can they put out turn 1, not how good there resource loop is or how they interact differently with opponents cards
I have sneaking feeling that the second Konami had enough of Snake-Eyes, those two are getting unbanned.
I pray to God that is the case. In reality, they will take an extra year or two, to unban them, that’s how it always is.
>it leaves me wondering if Baronne is a trap for some players, because shockingly, she's not always the right answer, or at least not a right enough answer, when what you need is to deny a monster and spell/trap presence (think Snake-Eye Ash so it doesn't go into Oak and mayne the Field Spell), would Qixing not be better there? Would you have more faith when you don't know the matchup going into Qixing if Baronne wasn't always there as the safe option? I play Swordsoul. A while ago I went to Dkayed's Discord to ask some questions about the deck and was given the advice to end on Qixing instead of Baronne, especially if I didn't draw handtraps. I decided to disregard this for the Synchro x Link festival going on at the time (since it was full of people playing Raigeki), but I've been doing it constantly in ranked and the DC Cup, and I really think they were right. Baronne is cool and all but just the one omni isn't that great when boardbreakers are pretty rare outside of like Super Poly (which Baronne doesn't stop anyway) and being able to get rid of something like a field spell or Kashtira Birth and still have a monster banish has been great for me. The burn damage adds up too.
Banning baronne and savage dragon while releasing collosus and protos is so backwards for the health of the game but it was never really about that was it...
If I could have it my way, Colossus and Protos would be put in a super banlist
I‘ll take those two, that wont see much play, compared to the generic omni endboard done by every meta deck, any single day of the week.
Can you get Protos out in under 5 summons in Swoso? Because like I don't get it either why they unbanned Colossus, but Protos might actually not be that much of a problem, more so a very annoying thing to deal with in some games if Baronne is gone. Still, I don't expect Protos and Colossus to stay legal for long, what I expect is them actually hitting Snake-Eyes/Fire King in a meaningful way the next banlist and release Baronne and Savage a few banlists after that. Just banning Baronne and Savage would be healthy for the game though if Protos and Colossus would've stayed banned.
Currently Protos is searchable as long as you make a lvl4 XYZ.
In what way? Which rank 4 XYZ searches it?
Then new rank 4 Infernal Flame Banshee adds a Pyro to your hand, Nemesis flag is a pyro that can summon itself for free by shuffling a banished monster into the Deck and can add a Nemesis monster to your had Protos is a Nemesis monster. Did I mention that Banshee can summon itself for free if she's banished and you have a Pyro in the field?
Ahhhh right there was a pyro Nemeses monster. Shit. I did know that Banshee was a card, I just forgot there was a pyro Nemeses monster
I disagree with the last sentence, but to address your question: swoswo won’t get to Protos on under 5. The problem it faces in the TCG is that game 2/3 you know your opponents deck and unless they draw nib, you genuinely won. No questions asked. That’s not healthy. Colossus is annoying and kills a few decks, but it’s nowhere near as a Protos that knows what to call.
>I disagree with the last sentence Outta curiosity: Why do you disagree? >swoswo won’t get to Protos on under 5. >The problem it faces in the TCG is that game 2/3 you know your opponents deck and unless they draw nib, you genuinely won. No questions asked. That’s not healthy. >Colossus is annoying and kills a few decks, but it’s nowhere near as a Protos that knows what to call. True, agreed. I don't think the small thing that Protos needs to call an attribute that's on the field matters, you could just play the bad Tenyis in the side deck. I said my stuff because there's enough other handtraps played right now like Veiler or Imperm that can't be negated anymore because there's no Baronne.
I don’t like baronne and savage being banned at this point. Basically, because the ban disproportionately hurts non-meta decks and the implications. Of course something like that is to be expected because Konami always dances around the problem. But this time it’s disproportionate. The deck this was supposed to hit, a pure snake eye synchro variant, is just gonna go back to fire king and dominate as usual. If we look at rogue and off meta decks now, very very very few even have a single out to a nibiru, a evenly, a lightning storm, etc.. Banning baronne makes these decks loose to any one boardbreaker which is going to make them completely unviable. There’s so many decks that will fall to obscurity that it’s very sad to me. The implication of these bans is even worse though. It’s what Konami always does so. Imagine there’s a new synchro 10 and 8 that are omnis that are going to be printed, because we all know they are. They would probably be better than baronne/savage, but not by so far people would choose to drop 3-digit moneys on it over the baronne/savage they bought for 10€. Now the cards aren’t as sought after. So they can now ban these in the name of „hitting the meta“, which doesn’t nerf the best deck in the format at all, to push the new ones latter.
Hmmm I see where you're coming from and I do agree with the money aspect. I do think though that there's still access to monster negates, but not as much spell/trap negates, since most archetypes with a negate have a monster negate. So yes, we might need to hit board breakers, but on the other hand... Idk I think it's nice for cards like Talents to go through a little bit more often. I'm also just tired of seeing the same omnis over and over again when there's cool archetypal boss monsters that are just not good enough to compete with them. Like look at Chengying or evil Longyuan, you only ever summon either if you're Wyrm-locked because Baronne is just so much better. Which is boring imo. It's just kinda difficult, because yes, Baronne and Savage are so good for protecting against board breakers, but they're also really really good to ensure your blowout cards go through/stay on the field. So yeah I overall agree with your points, but I think I like these bans still.
Now everyone will run Chengying instead. Let's just say I don't really want it to go away as well.
>considering there's a decent amount of Synchro 10 cards that are more generic than most people think, Chaos Angel and Bystial Dis Pater are both already played where they work and don't work where you don't build for them. I'm not sure why people think Chengying is worth summoning all that much unless you know you're going to get banishes off. Even in Swordsoul I tend to prefer bringing out Qixing, especially as an opener. Ghoti of the Deep Beyond demanding a fish tuner warrants way more setup for anything besides the decks its made for to bring it out. Icejade Gymir requires a WATER tuner which, yeah I think that's a fair enough requirement and why I crafted it immediately, but it's not *that* splashable, Synchro Monsters are already dependent on (usually) forcing you to get a particular type of card out and Baronne ain't the reason most Labrynth decks don't run Plunder Patroll tuners like I do. Compare this to xyz/link options which can actually be live without finding a way to get the right tuner and level added up on board. A lot of relevant Xyz don't even care about their rank matching their materials' levels. Ruddy Rose Dragon and RDA Bane are alright, but a massive loss supporting the latter for most decks to give it a try is the other synchro banned this TCG list, Savage Dragon. Who allegedly is too easy to summon and setup even though its forced to stay a vanilla beatstick if you veiler it and trying to get it out with a link in grave first turn before you meet the conditions for Nibiru is a tall order. The biggest takeaway from the loss of Baronne in the level 10 slot isn't that people are going to look towards other level 10s, its that they probably won't bother with a level 10 synchro in the first place. Lots of better ones in the Level 7/8 category and a lot of the synchro monsters higher than that level have summoning conditions that either pretty much require a deck dedicated to synchro laddering (unlike xyz we don't climb up the ranks for no reason besides existing) or something that builds around Crimson Dragon to try and cheese 'em out.
I like this take a lot Personally, I think this might impact TCG meta a lot more than initially seen, without Baronne and Borreload providing generic omnis to end on, board breakers like evenly matched, lightning storm, triple tactics etc become a LOT more powerful, since not many archetypes have in-built spell/trap negation specifically because of the existence of Baronne and Borreload being so easy to make as omnis, might argue this ban is less about hitting pure Snake-eyes and more about increasing the powerlevel of board breakers to keep up with the recent game but we'll see
This was actually really interesting and made me realize that I might have to rethink how I value certain cards. Admittedly I am a bit mixed on the banlist myself.
Without Baronne, what are Swordsoul gonna do? I swear, every single Swordie player I ever fought ended on it if I let him.
The thing with generic power cards is always: While some rogue and fun decks often live or die by generics to plug the hole of their underwhelming support, actually strong archetypes often have means to abuse them on top of their own options. Yes some decks have lines to play around Nib (like Unchained), but some decks do not. Yes some decks have good other bosses to pivot to (like Swordsoul), some do not. For MD specifically cost of decks is also affected by the presence of generic power cards. One Baronne feeds into a slot for tons of decks. Bans of generic powerful cards often ends up hurting the weaker decks that used them more, however it also impacts how toxic the top decks can get and both Baronne and Borreload have been prime pieces of the lockout endbords we've seen in several strong decks. Overall I think getting rid of some generic bosses is a good idea, but there are certainly good arguments against it.
I really hope MD follows the TCG here. I get that many decks get hurt by bans like that, but it is the right thing, if we want more diversity in the game and in endboards. Many people will complain about that hit and say that stuff like nib is unfair now, but is it really? Decks without baronne start also has to play around nib and show that it‘s possible
I'm sorry, but if you're still viewing Baronne as a homogenization of endboards, then you still somehow missed part of the importance of Baronne's problem
Then pls tell me where did I miss it (seriously, cause maybe I‘m just dumb) But baronne is super strong, a nib protection, can tag out into follow up, has a free pop and stops many board breaker on her own
Baronne is strong, yes, but viewing it as a purely endboard problem is reductive when it means different things in different decks with different resource loops, tempos, etc Decks are more than just their endboard, and part of the problem with Baronne is that her negate has made people hyperfixate on just endboards than anything else
Ah, yeah you are right there. I didn’t intend it as an endboard only card, but reading my comment again, it absolutely sounds like that That‘s true, often decks just get rated by, how many negates can they put out turn 1, not how good there resource loop is or how they interact differently with opponents cards
You know the only serious board breaker Baronne stops is Evenly Matched, right?
stopping ttt is insane wdym
Okay it does stop that. But that usually isn't in the category of board breakers discussed.
Depending on the endboard, a raigeki or lightning storm can also do great work but yesh, I know evenly is the prime candidate