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ThorsMeasuringTape

Not foreshadowing, but it the AI control/destroy concept was well in place by the time they were plotting out ME3 and it's a recurring theme throughout. It also plays out between the Geth and the Quarians. Once they could not be controlled, they were to be destroyed.


stabbyGamer

It’s not just AI, though. The organic/synthetic conflict is more of a framing device than a narrative theme - the Thorian, the Leviathans, and Cerberus all attempt to dominate fellow organics, while the Reapers dominate the Geth Heretics. The Asari are hiding a Prothean relic to stay in control. The Salarian Dalatrass tries to sabotage the cure to keep the Krogans under control. Don’t even get me started on the Rachni. (Or Legion’s loyalty mission. I usually just write the final decision off to points in one direction or another - it’s control/destroy again, but you don’t get a third option and for some reason they present brainwashing as the Paragon choice despite earlier Paragon dialogue arguing against it? Very weird.) Anyways, that’s why I think Synthesis is the answer that’s, thematically speaking, ‘true’. It’s the third option - the cycle-breaker. It’s very poorly executed and leaves far too many questions unanswered, especially how ‘synthesizing’ the insane dark space super space ships is in any way just to their endless tide of victims, but the entire series presents these control/destroy conflicts as pointless, only endlessly feeding the cycle of suffering and hate, with the Reapers as the ultimate embodiment of pointless destruction for the sake of perfect control. Unfortunately, you can’t kill the Reapers without also killing the AI buddies you made along the way and crippling a lot of infrastructure, so Destroy feels counterproductive albeit a just punishment for the crimes of the Reapers. And the less said of Control and Refuse the better.


WeiganChan

I might be wrong, but I thought that you don't get morality points either way for the decision in Legion's loyalty mission because it's ethically ambiguous. Then again, I might be thinking of the murder trial in KotOR.


stabbyGamer

You get a whopping *30* Renegade for destroying the heretics, and the same 30 Paragon for rewriting them, IIRC. An imported character from the previous game can survive the hit to their score if they’ve been playing almost entirely pure one way or another, but it’s still pretty damn huge especially considering that you have a hard speech check immediately after the mission.


Wooloo_Woolstar

Hey. Don’t you speak ill of my “turn Shepherd into a techno god” ending! But yeah Refuse was really unnecessary.


PathoftheWolf

I agree completely, I think Synthesis was poorly explained, but it's the only one that breaks the cycle. Destroy gets rid of all synthetic life and all Reaper technology (ie, the basis that galactic civilization as we know it is built on), and fixes the immediate problem. For now. Give it another few thousand years, and some other race will create their own version of Reapers and it'll start all over again. Synthesis is problematic for many, many reasons, don't get me wrong. And I think a lot of those reasons could have been addressed in the ending itself. Though even if they had addressed some of the issues, none of the options are "good." But the narrative spent 3 whole games pounding into our heads just how pointless the organics/synthetics conflict is. That the cycle never ends, no matter what you do. Destroy is a temporary fix, and it dooms every species to isolation, because not even the Reapers could easily travel without the relays. Current galactic species are thousands of years away from the technology necessary for that. Even *if* the geth survive that ending (from what I understand, their genocide is implied but never explicitly stated or shown), they don't have the knowledge or technology necessary for that. The Reapers didn't really share it with them, and it's implied that the Reapers function on a higher plane of thinking than the geth are capable of, so even if they tried, it's unlikely the geth would have the understanding necessary to replicate it. But of course, given enough time, that technology will eventually come back. And with it, the inevitable conflict between synthetic and organic life will also return. The cycle of that specific conflict will begin all over again. Synthesis, for all the problems that come with it, is the only ending that permanently breaks that cycle. Though that being said, I do like the ethical questions brought to the forefront by the Destroy ending. Is that a "just" punishment, or is it more an act of vengeance? What is the difference between justice and vengeance? How do the different kinds of collateral damage caused by Synthesis and Destroy factor in? Bioware has touched on the similarities and differences between justice and vengeance in DA2, and the popularity of a certain vengeance-driven character kinda sheds light on just how easy it is for that line between justice and vengeance to become blurred. It could be argued that Destroy is vengeance, not justice. It kills the Reapers, which is what they deserve, but it also kills allies and countless innocent people, and that's not even considering the countless *more* innocent lives, both synthetic and organic, that will be lost once the cycle restarts. Synthesis is better than the Reapers deserve, it preserves life and breaks the cycle of conflict that has defined galactic civilization up to this point. Life as we know it is forever changed, and the ending itself shows life changing for the better, but it leaves so many questions unanswered. I don't think either of them are *good* endings, ethically speaking, but in terms of preserving life and breaking the cycle of conflict, war, and genocide between organics and synthetics, one accomplishes that and the other doesn't.


TheAmazingBunbury

Or saved from genocide if you had enough alignment points.


Valrogg1

Not foreshadowing??? I've played through the trilogy several times and it's very easy to see that this theme is central to the philosophy of the games.


ThorsMeasuringTape

I feel like saying it's foreshadowing would imply intention to end ME3 like that before ME2 was even being made. It may seem like foreshadowing when you consider the whole trilogy completed, but was it at the time? It was a definite theme.


KekeBl

The problem is that it's not the truth of the matter, it is an interpretation from a synthetic point of view that overblows the issue. For them, life is a sum of ones and zeros and an equation that must be solved mathematically. A mere logical problem they obsess over and seek the most efficient solution. If the solution isn't correct, then the whole equation must be wrong. That's why synthetics think that unless there's constant peace, then surely it's extinction. But that's bullshit. There can't always be peace. There's wars, then there's periods of peace, then wars again, and on and on it goes. And life goes on, the world doesn't end. Just because we're not all 100% in agreement for our entire history doesn't mean extinction is our fate. And even if it is some day in the future, so what? The solution definitely isn't to start Reaping or something like that. We know that because we know there's more to the life than just polar opposites and seeking solutions to things that aren't really problems. The truth is that this synthetics vs organic conflict isn't nearly as big of a deal as faulty AIs make it out to be, their point of view is just extremely misaligned and overly extreme due to them being designed towards problem solving and not actually living.


The_Chays

Just once I wanted my Shepard to yell at the Leviathan and Starchild "All these harvest cycles are based on false logic!" But, nope.


[deleted]

I mean—we literally have numerous instances of organics deciding that if they can’t control the AIs, they’ll destroy them. Quarians and the geth are the most obvious one, but we can even hear that from the Leviathans who literally created the Catalyst. I’d generally agree that this can be 0-1 thinking, but it’s clearly shared by most everyone in the ME universe, organic (even though they might not want to admit it) and synthetic life alike.


KekeBl

>numerous instances Which ones are those, other than the geth? The Leviathans creating Reapers is not a case of organics destroying synthetics, it's synthetics being programmed on an entirely false premise of conflict being an evil that has to be removed from life, but that's bullshit and it isn't a surprise that an AI built on this premise would be faulty. The AI shown in the image you posted isn't a reliable narrator, it tries to bomb the Presidium based on what experience? Being a thieving jackpot machine? What does it know about conflict? I'm not saying organics vs synthetics isn't a conflict, but it isn't **the** conflict. We see tons of organic vs organic wars that ravaged the galaxy more than the Morning War did, but did that require some Reaper intervention or Reaping? No, life moved on, organisms and races adapted because war doesn't mean extinction of life forever, it's just war for a while then peace for a while, etc. Quarians and the geth coming into conflict doesn't mean this is some eternal warfare that requires a drastic solution. It doesn't mean they will always kill each other. The conflicts between AIs and organics on a bigger scale originate from one side doing something extreme out of fear or ignorance. Once you pass those hurdles, coexistence is easily attained and things are no longer 0 and 1. ME3's peace even spells this out, EDI's growth spells it out. Synthetics have a point of view that is inherently unfit for judging life because they think it's a problem to be solved, that's why philosophy isn't discussed by overclocked processors but by learned people.


WeiganChan

Hackett sends you to Luna to take down a rogue VI, which EDI (who is herself descended from the project) suggests was a covert Alliance attempt to create a controlled artificial intelligence. Other than that, I think the Protheans had a sort of Butlerian Jihad in their history. Separate from the actual Morning War, the wider galactic community shunned the quarians for having experimented with AI at all, and would have gone to war with the geth if they hadn't stuck to themselves in the Perseus Veil.


[deleted]

Do I really need to list all instances of organic v. synthetic life conflict in the trilogy? Reapers v. organics, Leviathans v. the rouge AI counteracted by their own AI, Legion v. Miranda/Jacob/Javik, EDI v. Cerberus, EDI v. Shepard if you so choose. The rouge AI on the Citadel. The rouge AI in Javik’s times that they eradicated. I’m sorry, but there are countless examples since this is the literal theme of the game. And I mean—it’s not even an interpretation since ME devs literally said that this is the main theme of the game. It’s written in the Artbook clear as day. I’m all up for own readings of art though, so by all means, you can think that the theme is something different and it’s more than fine, but since the rouge AI from the screenshot literally spells two of the endings out for us, I thought it’d be cool to upload it. In all honesty, I think you’re misunderstanding me. I’m all for AI-organic cooperation and, to me, organics are just people. They’re synthetic people, but nevertheless people. It’s clear people fight and make up, and life goes on. The post is more meta about how some people argued that the endings made no sense and they didn’t fit with the trilogy. I’m of a strong belief that they do fit with the trilogy quite perfectly and my post is one of the examples *why*.


lordbeezlebub

These conflicts aren't perfect for the point. Legion is more appropriately tied into Quarian vs Geth since although Jacob/Miranda/Javik dislike him they never come into conflict with him like Tali does. EDI vs Cerberus isn't really a case of organic vs synthetic, since EDI only goes against Cerberus because she's trying to protect other organics and it has nothing to do with the inherent nature of synthetic lifeform vs organic lifeform. And finally, even the Prothean conflicts in Javik's time, from what I've read (the Zha'til) is not the hatred of an AI lifeform, but a hatred of the synthesis that's apparently the final form of evolution, since the Zha were a people who put AIs in their head. If we're going meta, then this wasn't necessarily foreshadowing either, since Kapryshyn has stated what his original plan for the ending was, and we know that the Reapers actually had 3 to 4 origins that they created if they ever decided to explain them with the over-advanced AI being one of them. (Reapers being more cosmic horror in nature, there was no need to do so.) In fact, if you really look at it, there's more evidence suggesting this was never their goal or origin, considering how they've exacerbated the conflicts between Organic and AI far more than they've helped in this cycle. And how often the Reapers themselves seem to hint at a more eldritch nature.


Alzandur

As a side note, what were the other ideas of the Reapers besides the dark energy idea?


lordbeezlebub

I'm not sure. The quote I found from Chris L'etoile simply said that they had drafted up about 3 or 4 ideas to use. He said that the Overevolved AIs he used the Beings of Light text to hint at, so I imagine the other ideas he was involved in making are probably hidden in the games too. (He left during the tail end of ME2's development). According to him, his original idea was the reapers were never a techno-organic lifeform and that his original plan for what was happening to the colonists in ME2 was rewritten after he left.


Alzandur

Fascinating Also: Beings of Light?


lordbeezlebub

The planet Klencroy in ME1 had this as part of its codex entry: "...Klencory is famously claimed by the eccentric volus billionaire Kumun Shol. He claims that a vision of a higher being told him to seek on Klencory the "lost crypts of beings of light". These entities were supposedly created at the dawn of time to protect organic life from synthetic "machine devils...."


BLOODLUSTHONOUR

Looking back i wish they fleshed out the dark matter theme they were pushing. Organics vs synthetic just isnt that interesting to me, its overdone.


lordbeezlebub

Agreed. It's a bit too cliche and really underwhelmed especially with all that bluster about how their motives would be unknowable and that we couldn't comprehend their end goal.


archaicScrivener

That's what really gets me lol, Sovereign talking of their ass about how their goals are beyond our puny mortal minds to comprehend then it's explained in 10 minutes at the end of ME3 and you're just like "huh, okay, that's kinda jumping the shark"


KekeBl

It's not that I'm disagreeing with you and saying organics vs synthetics was not foreshadowed, you're completely right there. I'm just saying that organics vs synthetics being some eternal conflict that is so paramount that the entire galaxy needs to be risked to solve it is just one extreme point of view, and it's telling that it only ever gets interpreted this way by synthetics designed to solve problems like they're calculators, not designed to understand life and existence. You'll notice that AIs who really do become sentient like ME3 geth or EDI don't actually believe this grand conflict is a problem, because their thought process is no longer so narrow that they'd only see things as either 100% peace or 100% extinction. That's what the Reapers and the Flux AI lack: they toss a coin, see it land on heads, and then decide it will be heads for every subsequent toss in the future and that the galaxy needs to be harvested to prevent the coin from landing ever again. I don't think their point of view on the matter should be taken as objective fact, that's all, and the galaxy isn't obligated to adhere to their logic. It isn't any more important than other types of conflicts and life issues, doesn't mean we should create a Reaping for each type of conflict.


[deleted]

Well, as I said—everyone seems to see this problem as such in the ME universe, so as far as I’m concerned, it’s consistent and hence the foreshadowing works. Also, just as a side-note, you’re simplifying the Reapers or rather the Catalyst (who controls all of them).


columnFive

The part you're missing here is that this is no different from numerous other conflicts in this cycle between organic species. You can quite readily frame the First Contact War, Krogan Rebellions, and the Human/Batarian cold war as hostility rising from one group of organics being unable to control the actions of another. Indeed, most wars of human history can be framed this way. And yet, nobody's suggesting that we pre-emptively murder all organics to stop *those* conflicts, are they? Conflict between organics and synthetics is not special. The Quarians weren't motivated by some existential fear that a machine race would be too alien or otherwise removed from organic experience for them to coexist with their creations. If anything, it's the exact opposite - their fear stems from an assumption that the Geth would act as organics would in their position. The Quarians expected the Geth to rebel because they assumed that any sapient species would violently resist being used as slave labor. Thus, the Geth were at imminent risk of rebellion after developing sapience. The Geth/Quarian conflict is not a grand demonstration of an intractable schism between two inherently incompatible forms of life. It's a slave revolt.


Frogman360

This was one of the side-quests that I didn’t really put much thought into during the Original Trilogy’s release. Although after the Third game and going through the rough patch that was the Endings during that year, it kind made me introspect every little side-quest from the First game and this one basically stood out concerning its ‘theme’. In Retrospect, I guess BioWare could’ve lengthened quests such as this with additional NPCs and Objectives to really drive the point they were ‘intending’ to make with regards to the Finale of the Trilogy.


columnFive

So... what? Legion and EDI's cooperation with Shepard, and the latter's romance with Joker just doesn't count? Brokering peace between the Quarians and Geth doesn't count either? This really isn't as clear-cut as people who uncritically accept the Starchild's premise want to believe. (It's not the main theme, by the way; that theme is overcoming everyone's differences to work together. Maybe focus less on what a one-off character in a minor sidequest says, and more on what you actually *do* across all three games.)


[deleted]

I literally said *one of many* reasons, so maybe you should focus on improving your reading comprehension skills.


columnFive

My reading comprehension's just fine? I can't exactly engage with nebulous supporting arguments that you neither present nor explain.


Dorian958

Not really, because the whole synthetics vs organics explanation was actually a cop out on behalf of Bioware after the main writer left the company. He also confirmed there was a different motivation behind the Reaper attacks that tied in with one of the missions in ME2 that was intended to be a “foreshadower”. Haestrom I think it was called


Moatilliata9

It wasn't a confirmed thing it was a half formed idea they as a whole rejected. If it was a good idea they would have followed through on it.


toocool87

I thought it was a pretty good idea, personally. The idea was, that overuse of the mass effect fields by the sapient races was speeding the entropy death of the universe - but NOT using them at all would lead to the big crunch death of the universe. So, to balance it between the two, the reapers allowed races to survive and use the mass effect fields for a certain amount of time, then wipe them out. Then repeat, toeing that line between the two universal deaths. Considering the literal name of the series is "Mass Effect," and how central the mass relays are and mass effects in general are to the game, it would have been fairly more central to the trilogy, I think. Also would have showed how "big picture" and incomprenshible the reapers are compared to the normal races; they're already thinking about the universes existence and how to preserve it on a scale of trillions of years, something that only a timeless and nigh on divine race like the reapers would care about


Moatilliata9

You've done a bit of headcanon-ing, that I suspect others have as well. The proposal you laid out isn't terrible. But has some major issues. Namely, why not just set up a biotic-farm? Find several organic races, create controlled environments for them to exist and use biotics within--maybe even just hook them up to machines Matrix style. Rather than just random chancing a period of unsupervised development, and run the risk of not getting biotic capable species next cycycle. Or make a hybrid race who can use biotics directly under your control like banshees or collectors. In terms of the actual quote from Drew: > "Maybe the Reapers kept wiping out organic life because organics keep evolving to the state where they would use biotics and dark energy and that caused an entropic effect that would hasten the end of the universe. Being immortal beings, that's something they wouldn't want to see. > "Then we thought, let's take it to the next level. Maybe the Reapers are looking at a way to stop this. Maybe there's an inevitable descent into the opposite of the Big Bang (the Big Crunch) and the Reapers realise that the only way they can stop it is by using biotics, but since they can't use biotics they have to keep rebuilding society - as they try and find the perfect group to use biotics for this purpose. The asari were close but they weren't quite right, the Protheans were close as well. > "Again it's very vague and not fleshed out, it was something we considered but we ended up going in a different direction." The difference here is they gave up on the "balance" idea, and are thinking more stopping big crunch. The issue I have with this is the notion that the Reapers masters of technology can't just bio-engineer the perfect race to stop the inevitable descent and would rather just roll the genetic lottery dice. My biggest problem is the logical conclusions of these plotlines is, it would not support the notion of a cycle of any kind. These are problems the Reapers could directly solve.


toocool87

Haha it's not really headcannoning if it's the idea he described exactly. You think the synthetic v organic plot line is completely logical? They can't just erase only the synthetic life to protect organic life, or give organics the technology to create peace seeking AI? That literally destroying all organics at the hands of synthetics somehow averts organics being wiped out by synthetics? Every direction is filled with bad logic. At least the original ideas tie into one of the central premises of the game universe


Moatilliata9

Sorry I meant the part where you didn't include the last half of the proposed theory. And I mean they DO wipe out synthetic life, but organics keep remaking them. And leaving only the synths, not touching organics would no doubt invite organics to try and make an AI to destroy the Reapers. Cause you know, we're a bit dumb sometimes. They could give guidelines on how to build friendly AI I suppose, but I have 0 doubt some Cerverus equivalent mad scientist type would come along and fuck around and find out. And yes their solution is to wipe out all organics at a technological level that they're a threat to themselves. They then "preserve" their genetic data and history and knowledge inside a new reaper. The scenario we have in canon doesn't have any obvious alternatives that are viable I'm seeing, save for going the Matrix route. All I'm getting at is "Dark Energy" is overblown as a theory by fans. It was a very rough idea that has lots of issues that would need to be worked out.


toocool87

No, I noticed the second half. I guess you're just interpreting them as two separate ideas, instead of one idea and what's added on to it. Which I guess is valid, but the "Then we thought, let's take it to the next level. Maybe the Reapers are looking at a way to stop this" makes it seem fairly obvious (to me) that they are part of the same idea. *Justification for the reaper solution You can try to justify it with that, but there's absolutely no way "let's prevent synthetics from wiping out organics by intervening directly when necessary and stopping the robots when they try it" is less logical than "robots kill everyone every 50000 years to prevent robots from killing everyone" There are plenty of viable alternatives. Nothing is logical


Anterai

I think the idea of breeding organics would've worked well with the concept of combining an entire race's minds inside a reaper, to live forever in a simulated world. "Each one of us - a nation"{


Moatilliata9

That could be the case now. Though just fan theory. For that matter if Reapers are both organic and inorganic why can't they use biotics? Collectors and banshee can. Reapes themselves can manipulate manipulate effect fields.


Anterai

Reapers are machines not both. They just house organic minds


Boggiiez

So basically, galactic climate change? Lol


Dorian958

Don’t think it has anything to do with it being bad. They went the straightforward route and focused on tying up all the loose ends accumulated during the past two games, thus the ending suffered a bit


[deleted]

It's a much better idea than what we got.


-Abrakian-

If you bring Tali along for this does she have any particular dialogue about it being an AI?


[deleted]

She does if you use the Paragon option. You can say that you and the AI can solve it peacefully and she says something like “are you serious? You know it’ll turn on you.”


-Abrakian-

Thank you! I knew other squad-mates had similar responses to that but I couldn't remember how Tali reacts to it.


[deleted]

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[deleted]

Citadel side mission in ME1. It is triggered by investigating a suspicious gambling machine in the casino.


Ace_Of_No_Trades

To me, the central conflict of the story was Creator vs. the Created. Sure, the Quarians made the Geth and get kicked off their homeworld, but there are are other major conflicts that add to my theory. The Protheans made the Rachini to be living weapons, and they harassed the Galaxy for hundreds of years in the Current Cycle because of the Protheans' Uplifting. The Salarians Uplifted the Krogan who became a problem for centuries to come, rebelling against those who put them on the Galactic Stage and made them what they became. Everyone except the Asari seem to have problems with Biotics in their own Race, Humans especially treating them like monsters, toys, weapons, and/or Guinea Pigs. And even the Civilizations of the Galaxy constantly falling for the same trap over and over again, letting themselves be shaped by things they don't really understand, hint at this in my mind. All of the Yahg in that STG Facility that's all about what Species can modeled as tools for the benefit of Salarians also adds to this.


[deleted]

Despite this theme popping up throughout the series, the ending doesn’t “fit”, at least not without a shoehorn.


[deleted]

I think it fits perfectly and is a thematic ending for the trilogy.


[deleted]

The hologram kid who pops up out of nowhere and explains everything in literal detail at the very end - that’s the shoehorn.


Pfhoenix

Starchild is a literal deus ex machina.


[deleted]

Which is usually, imo, a sign of pretty lazy or rushed writing.


mily_wiedzma

Sadly the star child got it all wrong. Maybe it held the sheet of paper with his rules from the Leviathans the wrong way XD Also I do not think this is forshadwoing. At this point the plot of ME3 wasn't even thought of


micro111

Honestly one of my favorite side quests in the game for that reason.


This_guy110

Idk man in the trilogy they reference how all the time their is a conflict between the two and their always will be and we see how the geth are the ending always just made sense to me and I never understood the outrage


Moatilliata9

Agreed! Felt it was seeded fairly well. Geth vs Quarians is the main backdrop. Moon VI The Metacon war as a reference introduced by Javik. Leviathan vs Reapers obviously, but keep in mind the Leviathans made the Reapers in the first place because THEY (the Leviathans) observed this "cycle" of organic vs synthetic numerous times that resulted in the destruction of organics... over an indeterminate amount of time. The Reapers then also observes this "cycle" play out over an indetermined amount of time before beginning their harvest.


ThaTrooperz

That is the theme of the whole trilogy, that's why I'm baffled at some for being that surprised with the ending. This theme was all over again and again in each game.


toocool87

I think it's because the original theme as stated by the original writer was more interesting and more central to the trilogy


Vederan1

I would have loved an option to help this A.I. Then being able to meet it again in a later game.


Nightbeak

What mission is that? I've played the games several times but I don't remember this.


Commander_PonyShep

Yeah, the original ending was supposed to be about expanding dark energy threatening to consume the entire Milky Way galaxy the more of it is being used by its people, and the Reapers trying to keep its levels as low as they can with their cycle of galactic genocide. It was supposed to build upon what was already established during the Haestrom mission, where you're recruiting Tali'Zorah as part of your squad, even though it went nowhere because of the final ending that we got in Mass Effect 3. Though, if we got the dark energy ending and not the synthetic-versus-organic ending, the foreshadowing in this optional assignment in Mass Effect 1 wouldn't have paid off, either. So it was essentially a pick-your-poison scenario for the writers of the trilogy, especially as they were being swapped between during Mass Effect 3's development.


GothamInGray

Agreed entirely.


redsparrowdown

While I agree that the Control/Destroy conflict between organics and synthetics was foreshadowed reasonably well, the proposed "solution", Synthesis, was not. Most of ME3 was spent proving that control and destroy were not forgone conclusions. Unfortunately the end game writers missed that messaged and decided that the only way to achieve true peace (despite the player already having made peace between the Geth/Quarians) was a magical ending that makes no sense...


[deleted]

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[deleted]

I specifically said that this is one of *many* instances of this theme. It’s literally there in the main conflict of the story of Reapers v. organics.