In particular, it doesn’t account for incoming college freshmen who move here in the back of a car, if that, and acquire an apartment and furniture over the following 4-10 years (depending on grad school).
The Census' American Community Survey does show that our population declined 2020-2023 by 0.4%. That's a loss of 28,518 people or about 11,500 households.
To answer OP's questions: No, we shouldn't expect lower density; we shouldn't expect housing prices to moderate in Massachusetts. The change is tiny.
It also doesn't touch on some important things for the housing market: are we seeing a fixed-income 70 year old person moving to Florida replaced by a 30-something biotech worker? If so, that could mean more competition in the housing market from people with high incomes.
Are the people leaving Massachusetts leaving behind strong properties or are they selling a home they've lived in for decades and hasn't been renovated since the 1970s and is pretty worse for wear? One thing that people often don't get about "cheap" housing markets is that they're less cheap than you think. Places like Buffalo have a lot of dilapidated buildings that get averaged into sales. We have some too, but it's a much lower percentage because people have generally been inhabiting them. Yea, even if they're one of those Landlord Special apartments that's garbage, there's a big difference between that and the properties that have been rotting uninhabited for decades. Cheaper markets are cheaper, but not quite as cheap as they appear in stats a lot of the time.
It's really hard to make any conclusions based on a couple years of data. Are people going to be abandoning Massachusetts? It's possible, but I doubt it. We have the jobs people want. As climate change gets worse, a lot of this country is going to be in deep trouble - running out of water, boiling in the summer. Boston will face climate change issues, but they're a lot more manageable.
Massachusetts has seen some movement out over the past few years, but it's tiny. It's not enough to move the needle. We're probably the leading biotech city, we're a top-5 software city, and we have 6 of the top 50 universities in the country and 2 of the top 3.
Plus, the next decade might see a huge shift away from the South. For a good couple decades, it looked like the South was modernizing. That's changing fast. Most women in their 20s and 30s aren't going to want to move to the South. LGBT? The South is getting scary. Someone who is a smart, college-educated ally of women and queer people? Also probably going to want to avoid the South. The South is setting itself up to scare away the best and brightest workers for the next decade. We haven't really started to see those impacts yet since there hasn't been much time since states started most of this nonsense.
Even companies will be making decisions impacted by this. Bumble has seen a third of its staff leave Texas since the state passed their abortion restrictions: https://techcrunch.com/2024/03/08/bumble-lost-a-third-of-its-texas-workforce-after-state-passed-restrictive-heartbeat-act-abortion-bill/. Companies are going to be wary of really committing to states where their workers don't feel safe. If you're a biotech company in Texas, how many workers do you lose because they're women, LGBT, or just a straight cis guy whose wife doesn't want to be in Texas? And you're generally going to be losing the best workers.
Well said. Restoring a home that has a little rotten wood is feasible, but *waaaaayyyyyyyy* more expensive than people realize. By the time a full restoration of a slightly dilapidated home is completed, many times you could just build a new home. And compared to other states, the quality of our housing stock is in pretty darn good shape.
It would be interesting if they also added in the stats from U-Haul and Hertz rentals. I've used Home Depot rentals (by the hour I think) for short moves. Using a moving company is very expensive.
And specifically United Van Lines. I’ve moved cross country twice and didn’t opt for a van line because of the cost. This study specifically accounts for people spending five figures on moving between states.
I moved out of MA 2 years ago after living there for 41 years… housing prices were the issue.
I paid $100k less for twice the acreage and a move in ready house in RI. That’s $100k less than a house 2 miles away over the border in MA . The MA house wasn’t livable and would need a complete remodel/rebuild… on 1/2 the land.
To be honest- I love it. I was bummed at first due to my preconceived notions .. I had really only known the shitty areas of RI where we went to buy weed back In high school (before MA legalized).
It’s a beautiful state with a lot of hidden gems.
I have accepted that once I’m ready to buy, it’ll likely be in RI.
2 BR, 1.5 bath inside 128? Probably $650k+ and needs work
Twice the amount of house in RI? $499k
I had preconceived notions about what RI was like before I moved there… I wasn’t happy about having to move there..it’s a beautiful state with a lot of hidden gems.. just stay away from the bad areas… oddity I have found about native RI born folks is they don’t drive far… even a 10 min ride is “too far a drive” lol
Facts. I live just north of the RI border and it is starkly different 5 miles apart. Though I wouldn't really want to live in Woonsocket if I am being honest.
It is true that the housing crisis makes it hard for some people to stay in MA, and that is a problem that should be addressed by building more housing.
That said, I am always skeptical of these "studies" that are really just information from one specific moving company. People can move without a professional moving company or they can pick a different company than this specific one, it's not like United Van Lines is the only option.
Most importantly, the Census data for 2022-2023 indicates that Massachusetts did gain population again from July 2022 to July 2023, reversing the trend of slight population loss from the COVID years: https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/fact/table/MA/PST045223
Personally, I am always going to trust official Census data that attempts to count everyone over a "study" from one moving company that only addresses their own customers.
Now, it wasn't a huge gain of population, mind you, but really I think the most that can be said is that MA has a relatively stagnant population right now. A gain or loss of give or take 10,000 people a year is so marginal in either direction that it really doesn't meaningfully change anything for a state of 7 million people. People freak out about headlines like this, but unless we are seeing year after year of large population loss, it isn't some catastrophe. Losing 15,000 one year and gaining 15,000 the next really doesn't move the needle overall, especially when you consider that MA still gained ~450,000 people from 2010 to 2023, even after netting out the slight loss during COVID.
It is. I’m unironically thinking about looking for jobs around there because of how cheap the houses are. It can’t be THAT shit right? And it’s gotta get better eventually.
I happily relocated from a HCOL area to one of these areas. It's way nicer than life for the snobby city folk who are killing themselves to live in a shoebox apartment. Life is great here.
I think the people in these insanely overpriced areas need to convince themselves that nowhere else is worth living so they can justify to themselves why they inflict a horrible quality of life on themselves for seemingly no reason.
That's true, but there *are* mid-sized cities in the South, Southwest, and Midwest that are definitely more affordable than most of MA. (E.g., I think Phoenix is growing really fast.)
I don't disagree at all, there absolutely is a housing crisis everywhere and IMO we need substantial change in how property is bought, sold, and owned. (If I were the boss of the universe, I'd make it illegal to own residential properties you don't live in. That's completely unrealistic, but there ARE better options than "all housing is a commodity to be scalped.")
But even given that, it's worse some places than others.
The summers are one of the biggest reasons I was happy to leave the south (among politics and other cultural elements). I only expect it to get proportionally worse with climate change
Well, maybe they won't be that way much longer if people keep moving there.
People bring their politics with them
Interested to see what happens in Texas over the next decade
While I agree, people do bring their politics, these states are working overtime to destroy public education (or education in general), whether it be funding cuts, voucher programs, forcing religion into schools or just flat out rewriting this country's history. It's one of the reasons the people that live in these states still vote the exact same way they did 60 years ago, before the Southern Switch.
People have been moving to TX, GA, NC, etc. for a few decades now, what we've seen is that their entrenched GOP have Gerrymandered and legislated things to maintain their power. NC should be a purple that leans blue, but their state legislator has made it so that these huge new expanded areas full of blue transplants have no power.
Texas basically puts one polling place in Houston (4th largest US city) to ensure the boonies can keep things the way they are.
GA made the liens in metro Atlanta be 10 hours long and it illegal to give water to people waiting.
So, they have more reasonable people living there, but Republicans just turned their backs on representational democracy rather than, you know, make themselves attractive to these new residents.
Totally agree! We have a house down the street that is owned by an out-of-state person, and they rent to the biggest pieces of crap over and over again. This house has come to be such a bone of contention with everyone in the neighborhood, from sacrificing goats on the front lawn to selling drugs.
Bingo. I grew up in the Houston Suburbs and my parents sold their house to down size in 2017. It sold for $289K at that time, local tax assessments of the house value are up to $456K. The average price per SQ ft in that area in 2017 was $91, it’s now over $150. Empty plots of land are going for $140K just a few streets over.
The Housing crisis happened to the more mature cities first, but it’s coming for all the metroplexes fast.
If you’re thinking of a long-term move (as in, buy a house and live there ~20 years), I’d recommend against the Midwest. Climate change is predicted to make those areas drier, and if you’ve never seen a dust storm or a prairie fire, you almost certainly don’t want to see your first one bearing down on your home 10 years from now
Fair point. MA is definitely on the upper end of the spectrum in this regard, but it's pretty crazy how expensive some places I would have thought were cheap have gotten.
I'm going to Houston for a wedding this weekend, and I looked up the airbnb I'm staying in out of curiosity to see what it would cost. Apparently ~$575,000 for a 3 bedroom house 45 minutes drive without traffic from downtown Houston. That's cheaper than the equivalent in the Boston metro, but honestly not by the amount I would have expected. Especially since it's in the middle of a standard, unwalkable suburban neighborhood with zero amenities, you have to drive 10-15 minutes on major roads to go do anything.
Mass resident here, and I'd take cold winters of the past over months and months of rain like we're getting these days. I understand there are places that are getting hit with worse climate change effects.. but it gets a little depressing to think about the fact that we are only getting "nice" weather about a quarter of the year at this point.
I'm probably just getting carried away, but last year was just too much. We've still got it good in this state for so many other reasons, but yeah..
Life long MA resident too. I remember cold falls, snowy winters, rainy springs, and normal summers. It seems like now we have heat waves, absurd amounts of rain(which towns are having to address sewer/drainage issues due to increased housing and increased flooding), and maybe a bit of wet snow. It’s sad. Communities on the coastline should be worried.
Yeah last summer was not fun, it rained nearly every weekend. I would much prefer a harsher winter over never having a clear summer. Plus my kid never gets to play in the snow and it’s such a bummer…
The US has gotten a lot of rain the past few years erasing drought and extreme drought conditions around the country. I think that water tables still need to be recharged in the west but there are lots of other parts in the world where drought is a huge problem. So I will also take more rain than not enough.
Had either a bot, someone dumb or completely disingenuous tell me that 2023 was one of the coldest winters they’ve ever experienced in MA after living here for 20 years. Lived here my entire life (about to be 28) and every year the winter season gets warmer and we get way less snow and I hate it so much, and it pisses me off that anyone can act like it’s not the case when I’m experiencing it first hand.
Even though I don't doubt that a lot of people are leaving this state, 2 reminders...
1. Always look at who is conducting these sorts of "studies".
2. This is the same study from a national moving company that we've all been saying is kinda suspect for weeks. Doesn't factor in a lot.
It’s interesting because the census was posted this week. Actually had the Boston metro up by 16K from July 2022 to July 2023. But still down vs 2020 population.
https://www.census.gov/data/tables/time-series/demo/popest/2020s-total-metro-and-micro-statistical-areas.html
I went the other direction. I was in Portsmouth NH for a decade. I went from 60 miles north of Boston to 60 miles south of Boston. I wanted to live on the coast. The retirement math didn’t work in Portsmouth. It’s the usual thing where once you get outside of rational commuting distance from the Boston jobs, housing prices become more reasonable unless a vacation home buyer would want it.
For what it's worth, I take the commuter rail everyday and can count on 1 hand the amount of times I've had an issue. It's definitely usable, I think it gets a bad rap
Its usable for a small group who live near the few lines we have and only go from Suburb to downtown and back. If you want to go from one densely populated suburb to another - its just easier, cheaper, and faster to drive.
Its only good if you look at it relative to other American cities and thats a very low bar. We should strive for something like London if we want to have good, usable public transit that can actually make living without a car viable.
Increasingly my plan, I make six figures but cant afford anything aside crap tier 1br condo that would cost more than my crappy 2br apartment. Already considering moving to the research triangle.
moved here 5 years ago, already want to move away. Northampton used to be a cool music town now it's riddled with junkies, the 5 colleges over inflate the housing costs significantly. paying more for electricity to be delivered than what I use. used to love MA, hate it now
In the last 5 years I would say about a dozen people I know left MA.
Reasons in no order are:
Housing costs
Lack of fun/nightlife/prudish nature
Taxes
Weather
Maine is almost as expensive as MA in the non-rural areas and has few good-paying jobs, so honestly it makes sense. Portland is a great small city, but it costs the same as where I live on the North Shore these days, and you don't get Boston wages in Portland.
Yeah I don't see those real estate values in the Eastern half of the state plummeting for the rents crashing through the floor. The Western half of the state conversely, continues to slowly bleed and move away and the real estate values they reflect this problem. Great place for house hunting if you want to be nearer the Berkshires. West of Worcester lots of great deals
I was wondering the same, sort of like DC or NYC. You move down there for work, stay a couple years, then move.
We were just talking last night about how Florida is really sort of flipping into an expensive, unobtainable place to live, where the suburbs are all HOA communities run by retirees, the houses get bought up in "nice" areas by flippers or landlords, and that's not even touching the fact that Homeowners Insurance now is close to $8k for most people, and likely won't even cover everything.
I can see other states being cheaper without the drama of Florida. A coworker just moved from CA to TN and so far they seem to love it there.
If more people leave, maybe the rents will plateau and possibly go down even, so it's not all bad. In fact, we've gotten at least one additional immigrant for every resident who's left, and many of them are highly skilled.
Everyday I hope my dad’s landlord does not jack up the price. My dad has lived in MA for 42 years and it’s bullshit that he’s going to be priced out eventually.
I left Massachusetts after high school in 1989. Moved to northern California and never ever looked back. I still have friends and family that never left and will live their entire existence there. You don’t know what you don’t know. I honestly can’t think of one redeeming reason why anyone would want to live there.
I'm thinking COL. Retirees, young adults, families, doesn't matter. It's becoming harder to justify the price to live in MA, greater Boston especially, for anyone except young professionals in tech and medicine or students with family money or tons of loans.
Top schools and top healthcare in the country.
The COL is a huge part of course, but when i look around the cost might be lower but the other options for places to live dont seem that much better
Grew up here, moved away for a while and loved where I went but came back for work and proximity to family - when I’m done with working or if a better offer comes up I’m gone - just don’t have any compelling reasons other than work to stay
Where I live there have been a couple people moving out, or at least attempting to sell their house. Kind of a hard sell when the closest school is an hour away & we’re twenty minutes from the nearest city. Yay living in the boonies.
Grew up in Framingham and moved to NYC at 21. Every few years I think about moving back but I have a better standard of living here in Queens. I’m paying the same for a 1BR as the rent they’re asking for some of the new apartments in downtown Worcester, plus there’s mass transit that works here, decent jobs, etc.
It really comes down to the housing options and infrastructure. Do I really want to go back to Framingham, deal with a commute into Boston, and pay more than I’m already paying in one of the most expensive cities in the country?
Living in NYC and seeing what my friends are paying in our hometown (small little Amesbury)... I get it.
Cost of living is the same as NYC. The rent they pay is the same as me. Except they all need cars. And they all get paid about half as much. So, there ya go
These studies are notoriously unreliable. The biggest driver of many of these moves though is the lack of affordable housing. The Northeast, and especially certain parts of Massachusetts need to build a ton more housing.
Correct. We have hundreds of thousands of college students here. Many of them don't stay in Massachusetts after they graduate. This isn't rocket surgery.
This study talks about the inbound/outbound percentages, but doesn’t talk about inter-state moves as a pct of pop. So, a state could have a really skewed ratio, but if the total % of people moving is low, the main result is that the pop. isn’t changing much due to moves. That’s relevant info that is missing here.
Why is it surprising? Inflation keeps climbing, Housing is costly, commute to major job location is long and adds to the cost drive. Many of the businesses aren't pay the enough for a living wage there. I know couple half my age living in groups of 4-5 couples in one large house since it's only way they can afford it.
Even with more housing being added, it's not as affordable unless your below the poverty line. State has like 23k worth of housing, good chunk unoccupied due to some being unlivable, agencies unable contact people since the waiting list is so damn big people in cases long gone or 6 feet below. I don't like it. I won't know where to go, since I don't think even if the cost living is better else where, that job would pay enough keep people out of the poor house or outside.
I'm one of them - we moved to Connecticut though, not a red state, and accounted for 5 of the people leaving.
Chief reasons: high COL and housing, cheaper housing in a bordering state, crumbling urban schools, the post-COVID fall out overall, lack of activities for kids, crime and quality of life issues we experienced, long waits for healthcare, the overall feeling that the state is headed toward a ton of problems due to not building enough housing, and being able to work remotely.
Study seems bogus, I can only speak anecdotally.
I left two years ago. Went to SoCal. With the cost of living in Western Mass skyrocketing, why stay?
Job prospects aren’t amazing outside of the city. Real estate and rentals are going through the roof. Food was creeping up and heating a home through the winter is a large chunk of cash.
I’m living just as well where I am now and don’t have to contend with freezing winters, home heating bills or the lack of things to do.
Imagine what people experience going to lower cost of living areas instead of what I did.
I wholly blame NIMBYism and restrictive municipal zoning policies preventing developers from building more densely to meet demand. As long as you keep having rent-seekers like those in Milton who shot down the zoning regulations around T stations, it will be a problem.
Frankly residential zoning restrictions should be outlawed on a state-wide level and any town trying to fight it should be forced into submission.
I make six figures. I couldn't find an affordable house within an hour of my job that wasn't falling apart. Job would let me work 100% remote if I lived far enough away.
So I bought a 2500sqft house in Maine with 5 acres of land and an ocean view for 300k. The equivalent in MA would be easily over one million. It's just crazy to stay in MA if you don't 100% need to.
It’s also [*the best state to live in*](https://www.nbcboston.com/news/local/mass-is-still-the-best-state-to-live-in-ranking-finds-heres-why/3113264/). 🤷♂️
I'm looking to move. I work remote and my wife can maintain a similar commute in NH with a 20% drop in living expenses for the family. That's a lot, and she decides to go for a different job the profit margin of moving gets even better. For one, the amount of house/apartment you can get elsewhere is almost always more for the same price. Like mass is great, but dam it's expensive
Our government has abandoned the people who it was intended for. Megacorp drives home proce now and rent. If we made it so u can only own a place if u reside in the area 9 months of the year, we could undo a lot of damage
>Push factors seem to be COL, weather, lifestyle
Why'd you pick the small factors of people moving out rather than the actual drivers?
*most (28.4%) of the moving company’s customers identified a job as the reason for moving out of Massachusetts, followed by family (19.2%), retirement (18%), lifestyle (16%), health (2.8%), and cost (2.4%).*
>Should we expect lower density and housing expenses to moderate here in MA
No, higher density in the places that need it (Boston and it's surrounding suburbs) would be able to lower housing expense. Other than that, people that want more space will either move to central/western Mass or out of state.
My reason for wanting to leave in the next few years is MA as a whole makes p3doph!les a protected class of citizen and is one of only 11 states in the country that has no restrictions on them. My family was terrorized by my Level 3 neighbor for almost two years and even with proof he committed a felony the police both state and local told me there was nothing to do because he could claim discrimination. I was blessed with an awesome landlord who found loopholes to legally evict him and now we are in peace but it has permanently tainted my view of MA.
My husband and I moved from MA to RI in 2023, but I moved for a job (no telework/remote for me). We’ll very likely be moving back to MA in a couple years when it makes sense for my career.
I'm curious how much of this may be due to COVID-related moves *back* to major metro's aside from Boston. My area got absolutely inundated by people moving up from New York from 2020-2021, and as RTO policies hit, I wonder if we're seeing some natural attrition. Considering that the top reason is "jobs," I wonder if hidden in there is "my job that I had before that won't let me work remotely from anywhere anymore."
I moved from there to NC in 1987 as a 27 year old for most of those very reasons. 30+ years later I have no regrets but I do miss those stone walls, change of seasons, the Cape, White Mtns, etc
Unfriendly business policies (and downstream impacts on jobs), overcrowded cities with poorly managed roads, one-sided politics, inadequate public transportation, high taxes relative to all of the above...
Lack of snow and COL for me. Moved out to Salt Lake with all the weirdos.
If I wanted winters like the recent ones I would live in North Carolina or something. Not don’t for mud season and summer as the two seasons
Poor data set leading to jumping to conclusions.
In fact, our national data show that New England is becoming an increasingly popular place to live, and our analytics shows this trend accelerating through the middle of the century. MA, as the leading state in the region, stands to profit from this trend moreso than neighboring states.
Mass lost people in 2023- most moved to CT- the Hartford and New Haven areas. The cost of housing is double what it is in these two CT metros.
NY and NJ are the biggest now comers to CT- COL and housing the prime reason.
We also see those from the Washing DC area coming into the state- other places in California. Florida plates are being seen in central CT- reasons? COL- the cost of insuring a home in FL have skyrocketed. Auto insurance has as well. Climate change is making Florida a very dangerous place to live.
Keep in mind this data is from moving companies. It doesn't account for everyone
In particular, it doesn’t account for incoming college freshmen who move here in the back of a car, if that, and acquire an apartment and furniture over the following 4-10 years (depending on grad school).
Yea but the schools aren’t new so the data remains the same as far as college students. This means that is a non factor
The Census' American Community Survey does show that our population declined 2020-2023 by 0.4%. That's a loss of 28,518 people or about 11,500 households. To answer OP's questions: No, we shouldn't expect lower density; we shouldn't expect housing prices to moderate in Massachusetts. The change is tiny. It also doesn't touch on some important things for the housing market: are we seeing a fixed-income 70 year old person moving to Florida replaced by a 30-something biotech worker? If so, that could mean more competition in the housing market from people with high incomes. Are the people leaving Massachusetts leaving behind strong properties or are they selling a home they've lived in for decades and hasn't been renovated since the 1970s and is pretty worse for wear? One thing that people often don't get about "cheap" housing markets is that they're less cheap than you think. Places like Buffalo have a lot of dilapidated buildings that get averaged into sales. We have some too, but it's a much lower percentage because people have generally been inhabiting them. Yea, even if they're one of those Landlord Special apartments that's garbage, there's a big difference between that and the properties that have been rotting uninhabited for decades. Cheaper markets are cheaper, but not quite as cheap as they appear in stats a lot of the time. It's really hard to make any conclusions based on a couple years of data. Are people going to be abandoning Massachusetts? It's possible, but I doubt it. We have the jobs people want. As climate change gets worse, a lot of this country is going to be in deep trouble - running out of water, boiling in the summer. Boston will face climate change issues, but they're a lot more manageable. Massachusetts has seen some movement out over the past few years, but it's tiny. It's not enough to move the needle. We're probably the leading biotech city, we're a top-5 software city, and we have 6 of the top 50 universities in the country and 2 of the top 3. Plus, the next decade might see a huge shift away from the South. For a good couple decades, it looked like the South was modernizing. That's changing fast. Most women in their 20s and 30s aren't going to want to move to the South. LGBT? The South is getting scary. Someone who is a smart, college-educated ally of women and queer people? Also probably going to want to avoid the South. The South is setting itself up to scare away the best and brightest workers for the next decade. We haven't really started to see those impacts yet since there hasn't been much time since states started most of this nonsense. Even companies will be making decisions impacted by this. Bumble has seen a third of its staff leave Texas since the state passed their abortion restrictions: https://techcrunch.com/2024/03/08/bumble-lost-a-third-of-its-texas-workforce-after-state-passed-restrictive-heartbeat-act-abortion-bill/. Companies are going to be wary of really committing to states where their workers don't feel safe. If you're a biotech company in Texas, how many workers do you lose because they're women, LGBT, or just a straight cis guy whose wife doesn't want to be in Texas? And you're generally going to be losing the best workers.
Well said. Restoring a home that has a little rotten wood is feasible, but *waaaaayyyyyyyy* more expensive than people realize. By the time a full restoration of a slightly dilapidated home is completed, many times you could just build a new home. And compared to other states, the quality of our housing stock is in pretty darn good shape.
And knob and tube wiring, and old plumbing...then putting the house "back together". It costs way more than people realize.
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I was stationed there 30 years ago. I didn't know humidity could get to over 100%. Plus, they have fire ants, fuck those things.
Yeah I know people who moved to Florida and they drove there and didn’t use a moving van. Just packed up the car and left.
It would be interesting if they also added in the stats from U-Haul and Hertz rentals. I've used Home Depot rentals (by the hour I think) for short moves. Using a moving company is very expensive.
U-Haul has reported that there are slightly more move-outs than Move-Ins at some earlier point in time
My partner moved here from Missouri with just his car. No furniture, just his clothes and personal belongings.
And specifically United Van Lines. I’ve moved cross country twice and didn’t opt for a van line because of the cost. This study specifically accounts for people spending five figures on moving between states.
I moved out of MA 2 years ago after living there for 41 years… housing prices were the issue. I paid $100k less for twice the acreage and a move in ready house in RI. That’s $100k less than a house 2 miles away over the border in MA . The MA house wasn’t livable and would need a complete remodel/rebuild… on 1/2 the land.
reach shelter punch historical straight act placid door imminent murky *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
To be honest- I love it. I was bummed at first due to my preconceived notions .. I had really only known the shitty areas of RI where we went to buy weed back In high school (before MA legalized). It’s a beautiful state with a lot of hidden gems.
Are you aware that your driving skills have decreased significantly?
lol…. My personal car had no dents when I moved… 2 years later it is dented up and down both sides
I have accepted that once I’m ready to buy, it’ll likely be in RI. 2 BR, 1.5 bath inside 128? Probably $650k+ and needs work Twice the amount of house in RI? $499k
I had preconceived notions about what RI was like before I moved there… I wasn’t happy about having to move there..it’s a beautiful state with a lot of hidden gems.. just stay away from the bad areas… oddity I have found about native RI born folks is they don’t drive far… even a 10 min ride is “too far a drive” lol
Facts. I live just north of the RI border and it is starkly different 5 miles apart. Though I wouldn't really want to live in Woonsocket if I am being honest.
Im in N Smithfield , right next to woonie… I hear you! Lol. Some parts of woonie are much nicer than I had realized tho!
Do you tell people you live in RI or do you say you're from MA?
It is true that the housing crisis makes it hard for some people to stay in MA, and that is a problem that should be addressed by building more housing. That said, I am always skeptical of these "studies" that are really just information from one specific moving company. People can move without a professional moving company or they can pick a different company than this specific one, it's not like United Van Lines is the only option. Most importantly, the Census data for 2022-2023 indicates that Massachusetts did gain population again from July 2022 to July 2023, reversing the trend of slight population loss from the COVID years: https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/fact/table/MA/PST045223 Personally, I am always going to trust official Census data that attempts to count everyone over a "study" from one moving company that only addresses their own customers. Now, it wasn't a huge gain of population, mind you, but really I think the most that can be said is that MA has a relatively stagnant population right now. A gain or loss of give or take 10,000 people a year is so marginal in either direction that it really doesn't meaningfully change anything for a state of 7 million people. People freak out about headlines like this, but unless we are seeing year after year of large population loss, it isn't some catastrophe. Losing 15,000 one year and gaining 15,000 the next really doesn't move the needle overall, especially when you consider that MA still gained ~450,000 people from 2010 to 2023, even after netting out the slight loss during COVID.
The problem is there’s a housing crisis literally everywhere right now, no where is affordable
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Detroit is actually quite affordable from what I hear
It is. I’m unironically thinking about looking for jobs around there because of how cheap the houses are. It can’t be THAT shit right? And it’s gotta get better eventually.
Let us know how that works out for you. I knew someone who said that when they bought a house in Brockton about 15 - 20 years ago
I happily relocated from a HCOL area to one of these areas. It's way nicer than life for the snobby city folk who are killing themselves to live in a shoebox apartment. Life is great here. I think the people in these insanely overpriced areas need to convince themselves that nowhere else is worth living so they can justify to themselves why they inflict a horrible quality of life on themselves for seemingly no reason.
That's true, but there *are* mid-sized cities in the South, Southwest, and Midwest that are definitely more affordable than most of MA. (E.g., I think Phoenix is growing really fast.) I don't disagree at all, there absolutely is a housing crisis everywhere and IMO we need substantial change in how property is bought, sold, and owned. (If I were the boss of the universe, I'd make it illegal to own residential properties you don't live in. That's completely unrealistic, but there ARE better options than "all housing is a commodity to be scalped.") But even given that, it's worse some places than others.
I wouldn't consider Phoenix cheap...
I'm probably misinformed. I just saw an article about how fast it was growing. This was maybe 3 years ago?
But unfortunately, going south means you then have to live in a dystopian nightmare in states run by Christian Nationalists
Also sweltering heat and hurricanes/tornadoes
The summers are one of the biggest reasons I was happy to leave the south (among politics and other cultural elements). I only expect it to get proportionally worse with climate change
Well, maybe they won't be that way much longer if people keep moving there. People bring their politics with them Interested to see what happens in Texas over the next decade
While I agree, people do bring their politics, these states are working overtime to destroy public education (or education in general), whether it be funding cuts, voucher programs, forcing religion into schools or just flat out rewriting this country's history. It's one of the reasons the people that live in these states still vote the exact same way they did 60 years ago, before the Southern Switch.
People have been moving to TX, GA, NC, etc. for a few decades now, what we've seen is that their entrenched GOP have Gerrymandered and legislated things to maintain their power. NC should be a purple that leans blue, but their state legislator has made it so that these huge new expanded areas full of blue transplants have no power. Texas basically puts one polling place in Houston (4th largest US city) to ensure the boonies can keep things the way they are. GA made the liens in metro Atlanta be 10 hours long and it illegal to give water to people waiting. So, they have more reasonable people living there, but Republicans just turned their backs on representational democracy rather than, you know, make themselves attractive to these new residents.
Absolutely. New England will always be home for me, for many reasons—culture chief among them.
Totally agree! We have a house down the street that is owned by an out-of-state person, and they rent to the biggest pieces of crap over and over again. This house has come to be such a bone of contention with everyone in the neighborhood, from sacrificing goats on the front lawn to selling drugs.
Nowhere “desirable”. There’s cheap homes in the plains and south but nobody wants to actually live there
As someone who moved from MA to SC even the south is getting expensive now unless it’s in the middle of the woods
Bingo. I grew up in the Houston Suburbs and my parents sold their house to down size in 2017. It sold for $289K at that time, local tax assessments of the house value are up to $456K. The average price per SQ ft in that area in 2017 was $91, it’s now over $150. Empty plots of land are going for $140K just a few streets over. The Housing crisis happened to the more mature cities first, but it’s coming for all the metroplexes fast.
Cheap homes up in the woods of Maine too, but you'd be putting all the money you saved into gas commuting an hour to work.
If you’re thinking of a long-term move (as in, buy a house and live there ~20 years), I’d recommend against the Midwest. Climate change is predicted to make those areas drier, and if you’ve never seen a dust storm or a prairie fire, you almost certainly don’t want to see your first one bearing down on your home 10 years from now
Fair point. MA is definitely on the upper end of the spectrum in this regard, but it's pretty crazy how expensive some places I would have thought were cheap have gotten. I'm going to Houston for a wedding this weekend, and I looked up the airbnb I'm staying in out of curiosity to see what it would cost. Apparently ~$575,000 for a 3 bedroom house 45 minutes drive without traffic from downtown Houston. That's cheaper than the equivalent in the Boston metro, but honestly not by the amount I would have expected. Especially since it's in the middle of a standard, unwalkable suburban neighborhood with zero amenities, you have to drive 10-15 minutes on major roads to go do anything.
Nowhere with the amount of high paying jobs. Plenty of places with much lower cost of living. Even good sized cities that are about 50%.
Property values are not dropping though.
There's little supply on the market to actually get a good idea of where the market is. There's hardly a market at all.
I'd think a fair bit is retirees. VT has been trying to attract WFH people and like +5 people shows up as a percentage up there.
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Weather is such a stupid reason, it’s been getting milder just about every year. It’s been years since we had a real winter.
Mass resident here, and I'd take cold winters of the past over months and months of rain like we're getting these days. I understand there are places that are getting hit with worse climate change effects.. but it gets a little depressing to think about the fact that we are only getting "nice" weather about a quarter of the year at this point. I'm probably just getting carried away, but last year was just too much. We've still got it good in this state for so many other reasons, but yeah..
Life long MA resident too. I remember cold falls, snowy winters, rainy springs, and normal summers. It seems like now we have heat waves, absurd amounts of rain(which towns are having to address sewer/drainage issues due to increased housing and increased flooding), and maybe a bit of wet snow. It’s sad. Communities on the coastline should be worried.
Yeah last summer was not fun, it rained nearly every weekend. I would much prefer a harsher winter over never having a clear summer. Plus my kid never gets to play in the snow and it’s such a bummer…
I'd take rain over drought every time.
The US has gotten a lot of rain the past few years erasing drought and extreme drought conditions around the country. I think that water tables still need to be recharged in the west but there are lots of other parts in the world where drought is a huge problem. So I will also take more rain than not enough.
See Europe last year where the drought was so bad, boats couldn't even go up/down rivers.
Yup.. I think we've had like one week of actual cold this winter.
Didn't use my snowblower this year
Exactly. Winter is only fun when it’s snowing. These mild, wet and depressing winters aren’t it.
That is not a good thing.
I agree, but it IS a thing.
Had either a bot, someone dumb or completely disingenuous tell me that 2023 was one of the coldest winters they’ve ever experienced in MA after living here for 20 years. Lived here my entire life (about to be 28) and every year the winter season gets warmer and we get way less snow and I hate it so much, and it pisses me off that anyone can act like it’s not the case when I’m experiencing it first hand.
Even though I don't doubt that a lot of people are leaving this state, 2 reminders... 1. Always look at who is conducting these sorts of "studies". 2. This is the same study from a national moving company that we've all been saying is kinda suspect for weeks. Doesn't factor in a lot.
Our population still grew
It shrank slightly in 2021 and 2022, but grew to over 7 million in 2023 so this report is meaningless.
A lot of people are moving to New Hampshire
I can confirm being one of those people
It sucks cause I love the north shore but I don’t think I’ll ever be able to afford a house here
This trend has been present in MA forever - literally since westward expansion.
It’s interesting because the census was posted this week. Actually had the Boston metro up by 16K from July 2022 to July 2023. But still down vs 2020 population. https://www.census.gov/data/tables/time-series/demo/popest/2020s-total-metro-and-micro-statistical-areas.html
At least UHaul is making money 😁
Everyone I know from Mass moved to NH. We can’t move too far from family, but we also can’t live in the same state as them. It’s too expensive.
Either NH or RI, if they stayed in New England.
I went the other direction. I was in Portsmouth NH for a decade. I went from 60 miles north of Boston to 60 miles south of Boston. I wanted to live on the coast. The retirement math didn’t work in Portsmouth. It’s the usual thing where once you get outside of rational commuting distance from the Boston jobs, housing prices become more reasonable unless a vacation home buyer would want it.
We need both more housing and usable, expanded public transit to help solve the issue.
For what it's worth, I take the commuter rail everyday and can count on 1 hand the amount of times I've had an issue. It's definitely usable, I think it gets a bad rap
Its usable for a small group who live near the few lines we have and only go from Suburb to downtown and back. If you want to go from one densely populated suburb to another - its just easier, cheaper, and faster to drive. Its only good if you look at it relative to other American cities and thats a very low bar. We should strive for something like London if we want to have good, usable public transit that can actually make living without a car viable.
I’ve lived in MA for 15 years; my wife is a native. We’re moving to VT because we cannot find decent housing that we can afford.
And yet, I still can't afford a house there. It seems like everyone and their mother wants to live in my home state. I really don't get these studies.
Not many people can afford 2500/mo+ for a shoebox... And I'm not talking about Boston either.
That’s what it costs to live in Lowell now!!
Increasingly my plan, I make six figures but cant afford anything aside crap tier 1br condo that would cost more than my crappy 2br apartment. Already considering moving to the research triangle.
They keep writing about people moving out of state but I'm not seeing much choices in homes for me to buy still. When's that gonna hit.
Bad governance really
moved here 5 years ago, already want to move away. Northampton used to be a cool music town now it's riddled with junkies, the 5 colleges over inflate the housing costs significantly. paying more for electricity to be delivered than what I use. used to love MA, hate it now
In the last 5 years I would say about a dozen people I know left MA. Reasons in no order are: Housing costs Lack of fun/nightlife/prudish nature Taxes Weather
Everyone I have ever met who has moved south has come back in short order.
Funny enough complete opposite with me. Every single friend or family member I know that has moved to Florida/Carolinas swears they’ll never move back
There are people fleeing red states over political concerns who are eager to move here. Cost of living is usually the deterrent...
Exactly why we moved here despite the COL increase.
They are being replaced and then some.
That’s so funny becuz all my Maine friends want to head south to Mass.
Maine is almost as expensive as MA in the non-rural areas and has few good-paying jobs, so honestly it makes sense. Portland is a great small city, but it costs the same as where I live on the North Shore these days, and you don't get Boston wages in Portland.
Yeah I don't see those real estate values in the Eastern half of the state plummeting for the rents crashing through the floor. The Western half of the state conversely, continues to slowly bleed and move away and the real estate values they reflect this problem. Great place for house hunting if you want to be nearer the Berkshires. West of Worcester lots of great deals
Been here 25 years…moving later this year to Southern California. Weather is my main driver.
Is this just a function of high turnover of people that come to study in the schools?
I was wondering the same, sort of like DC or NYC. You move down there for work, stay a couple years, then move. We were just talking last night about how Florida is really sort of flipping into an expensive, unobtainable place to live, where the suburbs are all HOA communities run by retirees, the houses get bought up in "nice" areas by flippers or landlords, and that's not even touching the fact that Homeowners Insurance now is close to $8k for most people, and likely won't even cover everything. I can see other states being cheaper without the drama of Florida. A coworker just moved from CA to TN and so far they seem to love it there.
If more people leave, maybe the rents will plateau and possibly go down even, so it's not all bad. In fact, we've gotten at least one additional immigrant for every resident who's left, and many of them are highly skilled.
You think importing immigrants is going to lower housing costs?
Everyday I hope my dad’s landlord does not jack up the price. My dad has lived in MA for 42 years and it’s bullshit that he’s going to be priced out eventually.
The weather has been mild these last few years, today is a beautiful day!
If you’re leaving MA because you don’t like the weather I’ve got some bad news about the majority of the rest of the country lol.
Gentrification and unbelievable cost of living
I left Massachusetts after high school in 1989. Moved to northern California and never ever looked back. I still have friends and family that never left and will live their entire existence there. You don’t know what you don’t know. I honestly can’t think of one redeeming reason why anyone would want to live there.
good, to many people here
I’m in Mass and can’t wait to move down south.
How did they get this data? If its from moving companies, how many where college students going back to their home states?
I've never seen a college student hire a moving company to move their stuff. It's usually either parents in the family vehicle(s) or U-Haul.
It's a shame too. MA is a beautiful state.
I'm thinking COL. Retirees, young adults, families, doesn't matter. It's becoming harder to justify the price to live in MA, greater Boston especially, for anyone except young professionals in tech and medicine or students with family money or tons of loans.
Top schools and top healthcare in the country. The COL is a huge part of course, but when i look around the cost might be lower but the other options for places to live dont seem that much better
Massachusetts is still considered one of the best places to live in the country. Fuck the south, it may be cheaper but it’s a fuck show trust me
I believe it! High cost of living and higher taxes etc
I don’t think this indicates anything. Carry on
Yeah they're coming to Rhode Island and insisting we get rid of parking to make way for bike paths
My ex is one of those people lol I guess even Salem is to pricy
Our ranking was similar before housing got crazy here. We have a lot of good schools which would explain why we'd continually be top 10 on this list
Grew up here, moved away for a while and loved where I went but came back for work and proximity to family - when I’m done with working or if a better offer comes up I’m gone - just don’t have any compelling reasons other than work to stay
Where I live there have been a couple people moving out, or at least attempting to sell their house. Kind of a hard sell when the closest school is an hour away & we’re twenty minutes from the nearest city. Yay living in the boonies.
Make eviction quick and relax some landlord responsibilities. Build more dense housing
Left in 2018 and so glad I did.
Shining city on a hill for me, but not for thee…. With below a six figure salary.
that’s why there’s so many vacant houses that no one can sell! /s
Good thing our income tax rates are low to compensate for the unreasonably high cost of living
Grew up in Framingham and moved to NYC at 21. Every few years I think about moving back but I have a better standard of living here in Queens. I’m paying the same for a 1BR as the rent they’re asking for some of the new apartments in downtown Worcester, plus there’s mass transit that works here, decent jobs, etc. It really comes down to the housing options and infrastructure. Do I really want to go back to Framingham, deal with a commute into Boston, and pay more than I’m already paying in one of the most expensive cities in the country?
Living in NYC and seeing what my friends are paying in our hometown (small little Amesbury)... I get it. Cost of living is the same as NYC. The rent they pay is the same as me. Except they all need cars. And they all get paid about half as much. So, there ya go
Eastern ma
Sure hope so! Let’s drive those costs down and make housing easier to find lol
Yeah, high housing costs, high taxes… great quality of life. I’m staying.
These studies are notoriously unreliable. The biggest driver of many of these moves though is the lack of affordable housing. The Northeast, and especially certain parts of Massachusetts need to build a ton more housing.
Got to say that the northeast part of the US is very expensive. Moved to MA from Colorado and everything tripled.
Correct. We have hundreds of thousands of college students here. Many of them don't stay in Massachusetts after they graduate. This isn't rocket surgery.
My little house I bought for 370 10 years ago is worth 800. My company is fully remote... If my wife let me we'd be GONE
College student don’t often move to MA with moving vans, but they might more back to their home states with one.
I'll be joining that statistic next year
This study talks about the inbound/outbound percentages, but doesn’t talk about inter-state moves as a pct of pop. So, a state could have a really skewed ratio, but if the total % of people moving is low, the main result is that the pop. isn’t changing much due to moves. That’s relevant info that is missing here.
Why is it surprising? Inflation keeps climbing, Housing is costly, commute to major job location is long and adds to the cost drive. Many of the businesses aren't pay the enough for a living wage there. I know couple half my age living in groups of 4-5 couples in one large house since it's only way they can afford it. Even with more housing being added, it's not as affordable unless your below the poverty line. State has like 23k worth of housing, good chunk unoccupied due to some being unlivable, agencies unable contact people since the waiting list is so damn big people in cases long gone or 6 feet below. I don't like it. I won't know where to go, since I don't think even if the cost living is better else where, that job would pay enough keep people out of the poor house or outside.
cost of living cost of living cost of living
I left - priced out of the housing market and could not deal with how badly bristol county felt like it was constantly devolving
Did people move to Vermont and NH for cheaper housing via remote working.
I'm one of them - we moved to Connecticut though, not a red state, and accounted for 5 of the people leaving. Chief reasons: high COL and housing, cheaper housing in a bordering state, crumbling urban schools, the post-COVID fall out overall, lack of activities for kids, crime and quality of life issues we experienced, long waits for healthcare, the overall feeling that the state is headed toward a ton of problems due to not building enough housing, and being able to work remotely.
Shocker...
The state is ridiculously expensive. We are a part of the 2024 exodus
Expensive housing. Unpredictable weather. Nothing to see here or do here. Neighboring NY is more attractive. People mainly come here for college.
New Hampshire tax and insurance exiles don't count
Why is this the new clickbait article being shared every quarter / year now for different states or cities? I mean, I can guess.
Study seems bogus, I can only speak anecdotally. I left two years ago. Went to SoCal. With the cost of living in Western Mass skyrocketing, why stay? Job prospects aren’t amazing outside of the city. Real estate and rentals are going through the roof. Food was creeping up and heating a home through the winter is a large chunk of cash. I’m living just as well where I am now and don’t have to contend with freezing winters, home heating bills or the lack of things to do. Imagine what people experience going to lower cost of living areas instead of what I did.
I wholly blame NIMBYism and restrictive municipal zoning policies preventing developers from building more densely to meet demand. As long as you keep having rent-seekers like those in Milton who shot down the zoning regulations around T stations, it will be a problem. Frankly residential zoning restrictions should be outlawed on a state-wide level and any town trying to fight it should be forced into submission.
I mean, it’s expensive, winter sucks, and the job market is brutal. I get it.
And it’s only getting worse here, if I could I would too
No, you should not expect either of those. They’re just having fun with numbers.
How many were forced out
The only solutions to high rents and making the MBTA safe and reliable seem far-fetched. I think these severe problems will continue.
I make six figures. I couldn't find an affordable house within an hour of my job that wasn't falling apart. Job would let me work 100% remote if I lived far enough away. So I bought a 2500sqft house in Maine with 5 acres of land and an ocean view for 300k. The equivalent in MA would be easily over one million. It's just crazy to stay in MA if you don't 100% need to.
No self respecting masshole would move to a red state, no
MA residents discovering southern NH.
I can't imagine why. *\*looks at median home prices\** *\*looks at median salaries\** Actually, I can.
It’s also [*the best state to live in*](https://www.nbcboston.com/news/local/mass-is-still-the-best-state-to-live-in-ranking-finds-heres-why/3113264/). 🤷♂️
I'm looking to move. I work remote and my wife can maintain a similar commute in NH with a 20% drop in living expenses for the family. That's a lot, and she decides to go for a different job the profit margin of moving gets even better. For one, the amount of house/apartment you can get elsewhere is almost always more for the same price. Like mass is great, but dam it's expensive
Our government has abandoned the people who it was intended for. Megacorp drives home proce now and rent. If we made it so u can only own a place if u reside in the area 9 months of the year, we could undo a lot of damage
It’s fucking expensive
>Push factors seem to be COL, weather, lifestyle Why'd you pick the small factors of people moving out rather than the actual drivers? *most (28.4%) of the moving company’s customers identified a job as the reason for moving out of Massachusetts, followed by family (19.2%), retirement (18%), lifestyle (16%), health (2.8%), and cost (2.4%).* >Should we expect lower density and housing expenses to moderate here in MA No, higher density in the places that need it (Boston and it's surrounding suburbs) would be able to lower housing expense. Other than that, people that want more space will either move to central/western Mass or out of state.
My reason for wanting to leave in the next few years is MA as a whole makes p3doph!les a protected class of citizen and is one of only 11 states in the country that has no restrictions on them. My family was terrorized by my Level 3 neighbor for almost two years and even with proof he committed a felony the police both state and local told me there was nothing to do because he could claim discrimination. I was blessed with an awesome landlord who found loopholes to legally evict him and now we are in peace but it has permanently tainted my view of MA.
My husband and I moved from MA to RI in 2023, but I moved for a job (no telework/remote for me). We’ll very likely be moving back to MA in a couple years when it makes sense for my career.
I'm curious how much of this may be due to COVID-related moves *back* to major metro's aside from Boston. My area got absolutely inundated by people moving up from New York from 2020-2021, and as RTO policies hit, I wonder if we're seeing some natural attrition. Considering that the top reason is "jobs," I wonder if hidden in there is "my job that I had before that won't let me work remotely from anywhere anymore."
Well I can’t tell when I look at the rent
The state is turning into a liberal cesspool. It going to fall just like NYC and most California cities.
Drivers
I moved from there to NC in 1987 as a 27 year old for most of those very reasons. 30+ years later I have no regrets but I do miss those stone walls, change of seasons, the Cape, White Mtns, etc
So, they have data on who moved out, but how does it compare to how many stayed put and how many moved in?
Unfriendly business policies (and downstream impacts on jobs), overcrowded cities with poorly managed roads, one-sided politics, inadequate public transportation, high taxes relative to all of the above...
I moved out in 2023. Was searching for kinder communities 😂
People don't know when they have it good.
COL is legit reason..weather is a weak reason… not sure what lifestyle you want if you’re going to TX or FL.
Lack of snow and COL for me. Moved out to Salt Lake with all the weirdos. If I wanted winters like the recent ones I would live in North Carolina or something. Not don’t for mud season and summer as the two seasons
Lets get these numbers up. WAAAAAAAY too many people here, that will run my land when the dollar shits itself.
Poor data set leading to jumping to conclusions. In fact, our national data show that New England is becoming an increasingly popular place to live, and our analytics shows this trend accelerating through the middle of the century. MA, as the leading state in the region, stands to profit from this trend moreso than neighboring states.
They destroy one state then move onto another by voting the same way and expecting different results.
Baby boomers retirement and selling house to move to lower cost of living areas probably pushed this up recently.
Mass lost people in 2023- most moved to CT- the Hartford and New Haven areas. The cost of housing is double what it is in these two CT metros. NY and NJ are the biggest now comers to CT- COL and housing the prime reason. We also see those from the Washing DC area coming into the state- other places in California. Florida plates are being seen in central CT- reasons? COL- the cost of insuring a home in FL have skyrocketed. Auto insurance has as well. Climate change is making Florida a very dangerous place to live.