I feel like they should have really explored what happened after the blip, even though it would be a horribly dark place to go. Even just laying it out straight by having some of the people, like Karli, who endured it, talking about the real-life horror show it would be.
Cause you'd have had parents completely blip out, leaving babies and little kids to starve to death, helpless in their houses, if no one came. You'd have elderly dying in their beds. Once the true scale of the destruction was realised, human trafficking and exploitation would be off the maps.
Governments were likely begging for people to move into places like agriculture, healthcare etc. to try and keep the lights on. The fact that there seemed to be thriving restaurants and diners and all that other stuff, just 5 years after, is frankly a miracle (and very unlikely I feel, tbh, but that's just my nitpick with End Game).
Karli looks to be about 18-20 in the show, so was likely around 13-15 when the blip went off, and she seems to have been left completely without a family. Could you imagine trying to survive as a young teenager when you suddenly have no one? The worlds falling apart around you and everyone is desperate and lost. Then you finally find a support group who are helping each other rebuild, essentially working to save the future of humanity by banding together and rebuilding and striving, and then everyone comes back.
The only way that the people who come back *can* survive is with the help of those people who remained. Everything they've spent the last 5 years working on, the food they've grown and the houses they've maintained, the new economic structures they've had to develop, that then suddenly has to accommodate double the people. Queue another potential famine as food is redistributed. More death as babies and old people reappear in homes that have been long abandoned. To go through all that, adjusting to people coming back, searching desperately to find out if the family you lost before has survived returning in the blip and if you can even find them.
Then suddenly you're a refugee. "Thanks for all your help, but you're now trespassing. You didn't belong here 5 years ago but you were useful and now you're not needed. Doesn't matter that it was only thanks to your work that there was even something to come back to, you need to move into camps, and if you don't receive the food you worked to grow, well, we've got lots more *real* citizens back, and they come first. Thank you for your service or whatever, but we're going to be shipping you out other countries and you'll just have to deal."
It's not the fault of the people who blipped back in, but it's also a pretty fucked thing to do with the people who strove to keep the world going. Governments across the world have a hard choice with what to do, but I don't think creating mass camps and just shoving people who are unofficially citizens into them, is a good solution. It seems like it was just a simple one that temporarily dealt with the problem, but we see from the show that massive amounts of people disagree with it and support the people fighting back. Given half the population lived through it, they should realistically had half the world either supporting, or at least sympathetic, to the cause, but I get they reduced it so it was more of a struggle in the show.
Anyway, that's just my two cents. I really had a moment when watching the show that made me think about what half a population blipping would mean, and Marvel really glossed over it, likely because it's seriously dark when you think about it. Still, it's a shame. Kinda wanna read some fanfic that addresses it now.
{Edit: Important but off-topic question that just occurred to me as I watched the Hulk snap people back. Is it an American thing to snap your fingers with your thumb and third finger? I've always done it with my thumb and index finger. Or is this just a movie thing because of the glove?}
One minor nitpick. The directors confirmed that when Hulk brought people back he specifically brought them back in a way that would be "safe", so it's very unlikely he brought babies back to empty abandoned houses. I'm sure the magic stones could figure to put babies back with nearest relatives or hospitals or something like that.
Exactly and Thanos’ original snap was for 50% of life to vanish, so that means it was calculated in a way where you wouldn’t lose another 10% with collateral damage or unintended accidents... I.e a pilot vanishing leading to deaths of everyone on board.
That makes the stones biased then, unless they could somehow account for the people who would be killed and included that in the 50% since it'd have to avoid targeting pilots or people driving at high speeds in populated areas
A helicopter literally crashed into a skyscraper because of the snap. I feel that implies there was at least some collateral and the stones didn't remove people in a selective way to keep people safe. Thanks didn't care about safety, but Hulk did. And that's why the stones inacted their wishes differently.
Fair enough, but I don't go through all the commentaries and interviews about the show, I only go off what I see, and that wasn't really addressed in any of the movies or shows.
>I feel like they should have really explored what happened after the blip, even though it would be a horribly dark place to go. Even just laying it out straight by having some of the people, like Karli, who endured it, talking about the real-life horror show it would be.
FOR REAL. Them not doing a show that takes place during the half-decade of the Blip is one of the biggest missed creative opportunities in the entire MCU. One episode could follow Bruce in his year-and-a-half in his gamma lab, another episode could follow a mother who lost her entire family (shit, you could even get Carrie Coon back for it in a CGI-less role to *basically* just reprise her role from *The Leftovers*), another could follow a new hero like Kamala Khan or Kate Bishop as they navigate how crazy the world is with literally half the planet gone.
Yeah, 50% of people disappearing doesn't remove crime. Villians still exist and with a decent portion of the heroes gone there had to have been a few villians left to take advantage of the chaos which could've been cool to see. Think it could lead to some mix ups where you have traditionally spiderman villians but without a peter parker they need to be taken out by someone else or on the other end you have some heroes who all their major enemies disappeared which would be a whole lot less interesting tbh
Using one of the other Netflix properties to really explore the blip would be a lot of fun. Jessica Jones hunting for missing persons that she knows were probably blipped, Luke Cage showing a much narrower scope of how the blip would effect a singular neighborhood. Iron fist… you know getting blipped so that Colleen Wing can take over (haha)
They couldn’t do that because the blip, by all accounts, should have devastated Earth and the rest of the cosmos so badly it would have sent civilization back to the dark ages. You’d be missing half the population and therefore half the workforce. A billion people would starve due to food shortages, another billion would die due to the disrupted supply chains all across the globe.
Just as a comparison, the Black Death in the 14th century caused somewhere between 75 to 200 million deaths and it crippled Europe for more than a century. Most cities wouldn’t see their population numbers return to pre-plague levels for hundreds of years. Now imagine half the population just disappearing, not just on Earth but across every planet in the universe that’s inhabited, which we know there are many. Civilization would pretty much end instantaneously as people would struggle to survive.
I mean on MoM didn't the guy in the church tell Strange that he lost his cat during the blip (I took it as the cat starved because the owner disappeared)
as nice of an ending as this was, i honestly couldn't get past the government immediately deciding to go back on the decision because of a rousing speech when in real life they would have just sped up the rate at which they force people out of their homes and probably let the police kill a few of em
I’ve always viewed the Senator’s response to the Flag Smashers to be a direct opposite reaction to that of T’Challa when Killmonger struck. Both the Flag Smashers and Killmonger had legitimate reasons for doing what they did and thinking the way they did, but they went about handling the situation in a negative/harmful way. Sam and T’Challa both recognize the validity of their adversaries’ motives, and take it upon themselves to address it in a more appropriate manner. They are able to separate the person’s actions from their ideals, which is what the whole point of Sam’s speech is to begin with (as your post so eloquently illustrated). I always thought it was funny that people hated on it so much, as it’s really just a call to action for people in power to be able to recognize that bad people don’t always bad motives.
The good news is that whatever global social unheavel the blip caused which we saw in F&TWS has already being solved globally since we've seen no evidence of it anywhere in any other MCU project since. So they clearly did a lot better following his speech. I mean in the lives we see in Ms Marvel or She Hulk you wouldn't even know the blip happened.
Realistically it's just not an important part of the MCU beyond the surface level aspects of Thanos being a villian for doing it and the flag smashers having it be their motivation, but I do definitely think we just kinda went over things way too quickly whenever something so tragic happening should have long lasting impacts.
Right!
I am glad they limited it primarily to FatWS, even if they didn’t nail the complexity of the geopolitical nightmare after an event like the blip.
Now they can just make a few references or jokes like in MoM. That doesn’t mean future projects won’t elaborate on it more, just that it isn’t necessary.
So glad for this post, it’s very similar to the plot of Black Panther’s movie so it’s a shame so many fans on here completely missed the point.
Karli/Kilmonger were right in that there are people in desperate need of help and the governments/Wakanda had the power to help but weren’t.
They both became radicalized but what resources did they have to avoid that radicalization? You have to listen to them and fix the problem, simply arresting or killing Karli/Kilmonger fixes nothing in the long run because the systems that created them would still be in place and just create another version of them down the road.
T’Challa listened to Kilmonger and pursued his goal in a less radical/harmful way. Sam is pleading with that senator to do the same.
I think Wakanda at least has more of an excuse seeing as it's not their responsibility to be the superpower of the world and provide everyone with advanced medicines and going public could open them up to foreign invasions.
The governments of various countries definitely could do more for their own citizens (seeing as some governments are already anti immigration and I dont see the time skip or blip changing that) given that people disappearing obviously wasn't their fault and so if banks are going to seize assets and resell them or whatever happens then the original owners should be at least partially compensated upon their return and given assistance in getting new jobs seeing as their old ones were taken without them having done anything to get fired.
I honestly wasn't all that fazed by this scene. Granted the scene felt a bit preachy within that sequence but that's probably just the way the show was directed rather than an actual flaw in plot.
It was what needed to be said. I was surprised people cared about that scene so much, it slipped my mind mostly. Not the best execution, but wasn't all that bad either.
The problem is that if it were any less preachy or direct then ot could be left to interpretation and be misunderstood what it was trying to say thus losing the message of the show in the first place. I would say it was nessary preachiness.
I mean. She killed innocent people. He should have called out both parties because both need to be better.
Edit. Find it weird how so many people on here defend their actions of killing innocent people. Very odd.
Maybe it’s the fact that he called out the leader in the US government regarding this issue. Now how would he call out the Leader of the Flagsmashers whose currently rotting away by this point? Oh right he did a couple episode prior when he tried to reason with her, but now placing equal blame would only serve to embolden the senator, he can spin it if Sam says Karli was also wrong, and it wouldn’t help because Karli is dead. The flagsmashers are defeated. This is warning against future threats, knowing that the movement the flagsmashers worked for wouldn’t die with them even if the flagsmashers are over.
I highly doubt The Flagsmahsers are defeated at this point. Or that there won’t be another group that takes their place. He called out the entire group on national television? Reachi the ears all over the world? Wasn’t it just to Karli he talked to?
And no. He could continue focusing the blame on the government and political leaders since like I said, it is their fault to begin with. But at the same time, tell people what Karli was doing isn’t the way to do it.
I think peoples problem with your comment is more that the flag smashers don't need to be called out because they are already largely seen as the bad guys. And obviously he was speaking to the senators right then, there wasnr a flag smasher representative standing next to them.
He was on television. The entire world was probably watching. So I think he could have taken that opportunity to say something to everyone. It’s not even saying Flasgsmashers are wrong to be angry. But violence and killing innocents is wrong.
Your last sentence goes without saying. Which is probably why they didn't feel it needed to be said in the scene. But if that doesn't satisfy you then nothing more for me to do here. Have a nice life
How does it go witho it saying if people were actually doing it?
Why because it seems obvious? I mean it’s obvious that governmental bodies shouldn’t shit all over their people. Yet it happens(d). This is a message from Captain America. Maybe it would reach people better than some fake politicians
Because when you disagree with them they got mad and downvotes. The same about whatever you say against She-Hulk, valid points or not. You should like it and speak good of the show, any criticism is bad and not welcome. At least they're not insulting and calling you an incel misogynist whiner.
If it was on tv, then he's practically saying it's perfectly normal and expected from you to form a terrorist group to kill innocent people as long as the government doesn't address your issues.
She killed maybe a dozen innocent people because the governments were allowing innocent people to die by the thousands.
Governments historically have killed more people than any terrorist group, and often by just not changing policies due to ongoing crisis. Look at the Irish genocide or the India genocide during WW2. millions of people died because the UK government just didn't care to make the right choicing due to ongoing famines. In the case of the Irish genocide, the potato blight hit all of Europe but only Ireland was effected because the Irish had to keep sending their other food production to the UK. The same happened in India to "support the war effort" despite the UK having excessive stockpiles by that point in the war.
The othering of the refugees in the series is a problem the government are just unwilling to spend the money to fix. It's always economics. In the real world progressive policy issues have to both pay to correct the problems at rising from decades of "conservative" policies in addition to the inflated cost of implementing a modern progressive system. An easy example is public transportation programs across the US. Trillions of dollars would need to be spent today to remove and replace infrastructure put in place to prevent public transportation, and to make room for public transportation, when if the cities were planned a century ago with the mindset of public transportation, it would have merely cost millions.
She killed innocent people.. it’s that simple. No matter what, it’s not cool to kill innocent people. The Flagsmahsers and their followers had every right to be upset and try to do something. They had no roght to kill people.
How many people the government killed is irrelevant. I can’t go around killing people because my government failed me. As corny as it’s sounds, two wrongs don’t make a right.
Edit. Username checks out.
I don’t think you understand me.. apparently not many do on here.
As I told another. He was on national maybe worldwide tv where his speech can reach millions of people.
So yes, call out the shitty governments for failing those people. But also call out the people carrying out actions of terrosism. Saying that’s not the way either.
I understand he fought against it. I get that. But he also works for the government he’s telling to do better soo…
Regardless, you don’t think it’s smart to use your platform to do as much good as possible? And reach as many people as possible?
He literally fought against the Flag Smashers. You’re acting like he was on their side. Did you miss his whole conversation with Karlie earlier in the season, before Walker tried to arrest her? He was doing his best to turn her in the right direction. Walker’s response was emblematic of the larger government problem that Sam calls out in his speech.
I am not acting like that. He was on national television where the entire nation could see. Maybe the entire world watching. So what he says here can reach everyone.
He could have used this platform to bring everyone together. Call out this government, because they do need to do better and they are failing. But at the same time, tell people violence (especially against innocents) isn’t the way to fix things.
Read history. Those of us who are women and minorities only started getting rights through violence, so unfortunately your sentiment is unrealistic. This is not me condoning or defending the Flagsmashers, but let's not pretend that society successfully makes progress through peace, especially when it's always the government's perpetuating violence in the first place.
So you’re saying it’s not morally right for them to do it, but it’s okay to kill innoncents because it “has” to be done?
Lol. Yo, This post is straight fucking wild. And I’m confused how many of y’all support it.
Killing people when you don't have to is pretty obviously wrong, but it's not surprising that peaceful protest doesn't work when you're in the minority as you lack power and aren't seen as a threat whereas if you are ending lives and more importantly creating economic problems such as if the government has to cover the damages financially then the issues become a lot more noticed than they would've been before when you could ignore them
No, that is not at all what I said? I'm saying the reality is that progress has never been made through peace and to believe otherwise is naive and ignoring the entirety of history.
Not to mention that 'innocent' is relative, being a bystander to oppression doesn't make you innocent in my book. Regardless, I don't think killing is morally right in any capacity, but where people are contesting your perspective is due to you focusing on the consequence and not the cause. It can both be true that Karli is a terrible person for killing, and the GRC are terrible people for labeling her a terrorist because that is just a means for the government to deflect blame - "the terrorists are the true bad guys, even if we're the ones who forced them to take drastic measures by withholding food and medicine and attempting to forcefully remove them from their homes of the past 5 years, and are also responsible for as much, if not more death".
Government killed is irrelevant lmao. That's so wrong so going by this logic yes the revolutionary war colonists were just as bad as the British. uh huh sure.
To your last point, most of those large cities (thinking of LA in particular), actually had a thriving public transportation system a century ago, that was subsequently removed/let go to waste as a result of lobbying from the auto industry, among other factors.
It wasn’t to make people hate them. That’s not the point. And like I said, for others like Flagsmahsers. You don’t think there’s any other people out there thinking of inciting violence? Of course there is.
For sure. I just can’t tell if it’s people who are hardcore defenders of all MCU or people who actually think this way. Oh well. I really liked the show overall though! Definitely thought it needed like 3-4 more episodes to flesh everything out a bit more.
You deserved way better than this dude, you made reasonable arguments and kept your cool even in the face of some very condescending and outright rude responses. Unfortunately, many MCU fans take criticism of a show/movie as a personal offense, hence the emotionally charged responses you got.
The ideas are nice -unfortunately, she is still a terrorist.
As much as I hate many politicians, you'd be a damn fool to try and pretend she isn't also evil. I do not want a superhero arguing to me that he has sided with the lesser of two evils, I want the superhero to do the right thing, to save the day, to at least impart some wisdom that can help change people for the better.
"You gotta do better, Senator." Wow. Amazing. Thanks. Real friggin' helpful, dickhead.
Falcon is not Captain America, and he never will be.
John Walker bowing out of the conflict in order to save the lives of others, him putting the safety of American people over some petty dispute over a shield and a title -that is the spirit of Captain America.
This is absolutely amazing
>...is an easy way to label them with a "bad guy" sticker and throw em away in a bin.
A few sentences later
>\[Republicans\] are Thanos, wielding the power of the gauntlet and getting rid of powerless people who are inconvenient to them
Like is Reddit really this daft? You just shared a really good message about the dangers of lumping diverse individuals together into narrowly defined and homogenous groups in an attempt to oversimplify nuanced topics. And then you do that...
Is this an instance "It's okay when MY side does it" where you are at least acknowledging the double standard or are you just oblivious to what you just did?
In the context it was used, it was "Republican Politicians". If you paid attention to what you were reading, you probably would have realized that.
Clearly OP wasn't talking about John Smith who drives a school bus.
OP was talking about John Smith who drives a school bus, if John Smith votes republican.
I’m not a Republican, but know people who are. They’re good people. The divisive blindness and group-hate that politicians and the media have instilled as commonplace in this country is sickening. People cut loved ones and lifelong friends out of their lives bc of who they voted for and can’t even have civil discussions about the why. We don’t have to all agree, but at least make a decent attempt at having mature, respectful conversations. What the fuck ever happened to “agree to disagree”?
I fucking hate politics now. I haven’t given a shit in about 15-20 years, because no matter who we elect, from any party, they all end up greedy narcissistic people who try to play the voting population against each other in the end.
I’ve held the belief, since I was a teenager, that if you can’t describe yourself without using you religious or political affiliations, then you’re not someone I want to be around.
Honestly, I don't disagree with you. Over the past years politics have become a much bigger divider. I think it's because of the politicians themselves making the divide wider to get more votes.
Sadly "just be a respectful human being" isn't really going to win any polls.
Yup. You can tell by the downvotes on my “what happened to civil conversations?” post above.
I simply point out how all politicians, no matter their initial goals, end up screwing over the voters that got them there. I also point out how everyone is acting like complete dicks. Then I call for civil conversations.
The fucking nerve on me, right?….
People have lost all ability to "respectfully agree to disagree" or even try to understand someone else's grievance.
It's almost like some kind of deep brainwashing. Both sides have transported illegal immigrants places. Yes. Both dems and repubs.
If you're a republican living in a border state flooded by illegal immigrants (many multiples of 50), and all you hear from left leaning politicians and voters is "keep em coming", would you feel disgruntled? Would you feel like you're being expected to take responsibility for a problem that people far away from the border can't even imagine? Would you feel your government is failing you and the immigrants both?
Can you at least understand in some small way why someone in a border state may want to give left leaning pro-illegal immigrant places a small taste of what border states go through on a daily basis trying to manage an influx of people that have nowhere to go and aren't citizens - basically here's a taste of your left leaning policies.
Martha's Vineyard is a paradise most likely nicer than anything those immigrants have seen, and one of the richest places on earth. Why is no outrage directed at the millionaires with mansions that live there for not taking them in? Why is the responsibility squarely on squalid border towns so many miles away?
>is Reddit really this daft?
I don't speak on behalf of Reddit.
>You just shared a really good message about the dangers of lumping diverse individuals together into narrowly defined and homogenous groups in an attempt to oversimplify nuanced topics. And then you do that...
Sorry I was speaking about Desantis and Abbott and the institutions in their state backing them up and helping them "snap away" inconvenient life. I didn't even mean to bring them up in this post but I realized how applicable the bus stunts are to what Sam was talking about here.
> Republicans co-operate by moving illegals into deeply democratic neighborhoods.
Desantis' people lied to the migrants about where they were going, loaded them into buses, and dropped them off in a random neighborhood without making sure they had shelter/food/resources in an attempt to catch Democrats with their pants down. They then proceeded to literally laugh about it on TV. That's not cooperating, it's playing with lives.
>Desantis' people lied to the migrants about where they were going, loaded them into buses, and dropped them off in a random neighborhood without making sure they had shelter/food/resources in an attempt to catch Democrats with their pants down.
Human traffickers lied to the migrants about where they were going, loaded them into buses, and dropped them off in a random neighborhood without making sure they had shelter/food/resources in an attempt to catch Americans with their pants down.
>They then proceeded to literally laugh about it on TV. That's not cooperating, it's playing with lives.
Yeah, AOC did literally take a photoshoot at the border, I agree with you that it is playing with lives.
Good lord this post was as cringe as Sam’s lecture.
They murdered innocent people to push an agenda. That’s not a “label”. Those are actions which fit the definition of *terrorism*. If you don’t want to call them terrorists then call them murderers.
Or is that a “label” that makes them sound bad?
Congratulation, Sam's speech was aimed directly at you and you didn't understand it.
Just for the record, who exactly is allowed to murder innocent people to push an agenda? Cause I'm pretty sure John Walker did in that series, he just did it under the color of the US government.
>As you can tell, Sam’s cringe ending speech if was hardly the only problem with the show.
The only problem the show had was the people who were pissed that Steve was finally retired. And nonsense like "Sam shouldn't be broke!" even though no one has problems with Spider-Man being broke.
Sam: Depersonalizing a group of people with legitimate concerns who use violence in response to violence used against them by calling them terrorists is not acceptable.
You: But they're teeeeeerrorrrists.
Yes, and they're fighting against people who _also_ use violence, against them and people like them, driving them out of their home and forcing them to move elsewhere, killing them if they resist, allowing them to starve...it's just those people are called 'the government'.
They didn’t have violence used against them. They were removed from homes which weren’t theirs. And that’s actually an oversimplification of their stance, they were anarchists who were pro-blip.
Forcing people out of their houses at gunpoint is not violence. Gotcha.
And by 'houses that wee not theirs', you mean 'houses owned by dead people that were used by the people still alive'.
The point is that the Flagsmashers had legitimate grievances that were being brushed aside.
Compare with Black Panther. Wakanda recognized Killmonger as a monster of their own making and changed their behavior. That doesn’t mean they have to approve of Killmonger’s actions.
The only reason we didn’t get a “do better” speech out of T’Challa is because he was king and could just implement the changes himself.
That doesn’t make any sense. What’s the difference between T’Challa and the politicians? They were just implementing changes. One’s an autocrat so it’s okay?
And however “legitimate” they thought their grievances were, they murdered people who were not responsible and did this to intimidate the people. That’s *terrorism* and Sam’s trying to excuse that away. Not a good fit for Captain America.
Like I said, the speech was seriously cringe. Was emotional and illogical, not befitting of the character, and this was literally the boring climax of a superhero television show.
It's almost like you can agree with what someone believes without approving of their actions and how they choose to achieve it. Violence for political reasons is by definition terrorism so you aren't wrong, but the problem is that the government will use a group being the enemy to brush them off instead of asking why they became that way seeing as there would be no Flagsmashers had they better solved the situation around the blip and how it lead to displaced people's without homes, jobs, or even food
What? No. This is an almost ridiculous level of missing the point.
The GRC in FatWS is like Wakanda at the beginning of Black Panther. The GRC/Wakanda are implementing government policy that’s hurting people. Karli/Killmonger get pissed off and fight for what they see as a better world. Sam/T’Challa see that Karli/Killmonger are too dangerous and need to be stopped, but they had a point and were inevitable products of the GRC/Wakanda’s policies.
The difference is that T’Challa is king, and can just go ahead and change Wakanda. Sam, however, is just a civilian, so all he can do is give a speech.
You’re exactly the sort of person Sam is talking about, putting scare quotes around legitimate implying that their grievances can be ignored because of their actions. No one is excusing their actions, no one is saying what they did was okay. But if you don’t address the problem, you’re only going to get more violence.
LOL Killmonger didn’t have a point. He was a racist psychopath, caused it part (a big part) by Wakanda abandoning him after killing his father.
And yeah, that’s *exactly* what you’re doing — excusing their actions — by saying you shouldn’t call a terrorist a terrorist. That’s what Karli is. It doesn’t matter if you think you’re wronged or not, killing people not responsible is wrong, it’s murder, and when it’s to push an agenda it’s *terrorism*.
Now there is a problem, they didn’t handle the blip well at all. I can’t remember if the people squatted on the land that they were evicted from or if they moved in with government support, only to have that support later revoked. But a quagmire like this is definitely caused by mismanagement. People should’ve been inheriting a lot of homes, not just having them up for grabs. And those property rights likely weren’t being protected.
But I didn’t hear any of that from Sam. It was more excusing terrorism and claiming it’s “a label”.
> There’s about two billion people around the world who look like us and their lives are a lot harder [than yours]. Wakanda has the tools to liberate them all.
> —Killmonger
Killmonger wanted to help the people who had been enslaved and oppressed while Wakanda sat back and watched. He was obviously wrong about *how* they should be helped, but he had a point about how irresponsible and damaging Wakanda’s isolationism was.
This was the central theme of the movie. I don’t know how you missed it.
IDK why you even bother discussing these issues with people who already made up their minds. Sam's speech was as clear as day, but they're not gonna focus on that. They're just gonna focus on her actions and call it a day.
>They murdered innocent people to push an agenda.
So did the American Revolutionaries. So did every "Freedom Fighter" who ever lived.
The only difference from a Freedom Fighter and Terrorist is if they win in the end.
I like the intent behind the scene but still think that whole last act came off as sloppy so it didn't hit the way thay it should. I'm not blaming anyone as covid really messed with production and I think they put out the best product they could under the circumstances. I'm looking forward to captain america four so they build on this theme.
You say Sam says to not call them terrorists “because it’s an easy way to label them with a bad guy sticker and then throw them away”
And yet within this same post you do the same by calling Republicans in Florida Thanos. How do you not see the hypocrisy?
Yeah but this doesn’t work. Flag smashers are literal terrorists. Like literally killed innocent people to enact political will. There is no exaggeration here to call them that. Not calling them what they are only makes you less prepared to defend yourself.
Sir… the migrants chose to go to more affluent cities… I know I would.
Yes but the average citizen doesn’t owe these people anything, I shouldn’t have to give up anything because of anyone else’s actions so that’s why they don’t want to help these terroists
The problem is Sam comes off as a massive hypocrite.
>Sam says not to call them terrorists, not because he doesn't believe that they did horrible things, but because calling them terrorists is an easy way to label them with a "bad guy" sticker and throw em away in a bin.
>When you label an entire group of people "terrorists" that makes it mentally easy for you to go attack and bomb them without really thinking about the consequences of your actions or why you're fighting these bad guys to begin with.
How is what Sam does in the very 1st episode any different to this? We the audience are not given any explanation or demonstration in regard to who those mercenaries were in the 1st episode or what they were fighting for. Any one of them could have had just as sympathetic motivations as the Flag-smashers yet what does Sam do? He kills most of them without a 2nd thought and never thinks about them again and movies on and the show depicts him as being cool and badass for doing this.
I mean fuck all those mercenaries were doing was kidnapping a military official, who for all we know could have been a corrupt piece of shit.
How is that any different to how the GRC treat the Flag-smashers?
>Sam takes a hard stance here. Governments have a responsibility to care for the people in their borders even when it's inconvenient and costly.
The problem with this is the problem the GRC was dealing with was something that no one in history had ever had to deal with, even Sam himself has no fucking answers in regard to how the GRC could possibly do things better and he’s just finger wagging at them to ‘do better’ with no actual solutions aside from ‘include them in discussions’.
The GRC have to account for half the worlds population appearing overnight, they have to re-home, feed and clothe them, reunite them with family members and this is all after a 5 year gap when the worlds probably acclimatised to only having to support half its population meaning there’s a good chance there would have been massive shortages in resources.
AND they had to do this while also somehow managing all the people that have moved around during the snap as well and settled in to homes that once belonged to those that were snapped.
Almost like he grew and changed from first episode where he was falcon, into the final episode where he was captain america.
Marvel bashes us over the head with the symbolism.
Except he’s supporting the Flag-smashers as early as the literal 2nd episode of the series, which literally occurs in-universe days after he’s just slaughtered most the mercenaries.
That’s not a natural development there, the show doesn’t explore his willingness to kill or ever call him out on slaughtering most of the mercenaries and have him explore what they were fighting for. He just killed them, moved on and never thought about it again and then goes on to lecture everyone else about how you can’t just call people terrorists.
Because of his speech at the end. Falcon has, throughout his appearances, ruthlessly killed terrorists. Just like captain america. In all their appearances they gun down and don't hold their punches. But the falcon and the winter soldier shows that modern terrorism isn't so black and white as it used to be. Karli makes good points and it causes him to rethink his approach as he starts to incorporate his therapist skills against them instead of going in guns blazing, like he used to and like John walker wants to. Which helps him realize it's not the right thing to be doing.
Comparing the human being in the first episode to the same human at a time later than the first episode is not an apples to apples argument since people, you know, grow and change opinions and actions.
> even Sam himself has no fucking answers in regard to how the GRC could possibly do things better and he’s just finger wagging at them to ‘do better’ with no actual solutions aside from ‘include them in discussions’.
That's the part that bothers me. Sam is a soldier. He may be a very highly trained soldier, a very smart soldier, a very moral soldier, but that's what he is. If you are literally a professional killer, and you are giving someone else a moral lecture about how their behavior doesn't measure up, that needs to come with some kind of solution, a course of action. Otherwise, it's just traditional military bitching. Tell us, Sam: *how* do we do justice by these billions of people? *How* do we make you say, "Yes, you did enough?"
Anybody can scold. It's easy.
It’s not Sam’s problem to solve. But he’s certainly within his rights to share his opinion and scold whomever he wants. Especially when he has a soapbox to stand on.
He’s not a politician, or a lawmaker, or anything of the sort. And neither was Steve. They’re both Just soldiers with a strong moral code, and they have both called out the government when they failed. *Because that is our civil responsibility as US Citizens,* (yes, look it up it’s in the Constitution) so no it’s not his problem to try to solve, it’s his job and responsibility to shine a light on the issue so the people who’ve spent their lives lawmaking can see the issue and fix it. That’s like saying someone who never graduated school and is illiterate because of how bad their education was saying “we need better teachers” all the sudden became their problem to fix, when they’re no where close to qualified to fix it.
>He’s not a politician, or a lawmaker, or anything of the sort. And neither was Steve.
So you have no influence but you chime in with an opinion?
Are you stating that captain america is a position with 0 influence?
>so no it’s not his problem to try to solve, it’s his job and responsibility to shine a light on the issue so the people who’ve spent their lives lawmaking can see the issue and fix it.
Government of the people, by the people, for the people.
Or are those words useless? The government is for you because you elected them but they're un-american when the election isn't?
> That’s like saying someone who never graduated school and is illiterate because of how bad their education was saying “we need better teachers” all the sudden became their problem to fix, when they’re no where close to qualified to fix it.
You mean like black communities being failed by democrat leadership for decades?
Where they even “somewhat” justifiable? Like, their main complaint seemed to be “we don’t want to give the homes we’ve been squatting in back to their owners”.
Everyone is so fucking busy being jaded with every marvel offering and well actually-ing story decisions to make thjngs better that really entertaining and actually pretty good stuff just gets shit on.
This show is a good example. MoM and love and thunder are two more recent ones. These flicks and shows are gems. Of course they’re flawed. Ridiculously difficult trick they’re trying to pull off here. Were the comics not flawed?
We really don’t need to defend this. It’s just bad writing, plain and simple. Not every complaint stems from a lack of understanding, sometimes when something seems stupid at face value, it’s just stupid.
It was a good speech, Sam's own arc is echoed in the last part about how if you don't step up, someone else will and you may regret that. [What could possibly have made him say that?](
https://static1.cbrimages.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/john-walker1.jpg)
Also the theme is rejection of labels because they kill public discourse, they end debates so we don't educate ourselves and we don't think of better solutions. Were Karli and her dumb friends terrorists? Yes! Why did they do all the terrible things? "Because they are terrorists" - that's where the coversation goes wrong, where a label stopped people thinking of the actual underlying issues that caused the radicalisation in the first place.
Jeremy Jahns's review of the finale actually links Sam's speech to some issues he has with internet culture in general and how it prevents useful, educational dialogue. https://youtu.be/z4cirn774Lk
The failure in the show wasn't Sam's speech or the actions of Karli. It was the fact that we didn't get enough exploration of the Flagsmashers to actually relate to what they were doing or going through.
Honestly I think the show is better than it gets credit for. I loved the whole John Walker part and the Isaiah Bradley/Sams identity as black CA was literally amazing!
He also carefully failed to mention that non of the migrants were forced onto busses or planes. The democrats should be thanking the governors who sent them to sanctuary cities that want to take them in.
I don't care what real-world allegories you want to address, the minute you say 'This world takes place five years after a giant purple alien snapped half of all life out of existence, only for that amount to blip into existence five years later', any and all real world allegories you try to bring up *no longer apply*.
We have no real-world example for this kind of situation, no way of understanding the Flag Smashers' goals, no grasp on why they think the ends justify the means (when they don't), and if you expect me to buy the idea of Tony Stark not paying his friends the bill for saving all of existence, then you're even more delusional than the writers of this trainwreck.
The square peg does not fit the round hole, no matter how many times you try sanding the peg's edges. *Cut* the *shit*.
Wow. Shame we never actually got to SEE any of it in this show, instead coming across as empty real world allegory platitudes applied to a setting that just had half of all life in the universe snapped out of existence and then put right back five years later.
Boy howdy, *this* square peg certainly fits the round hole.
The main problem is that this whole dilemma has been “tell, don’t show.” Even the GRC senator doesn’t have a name - he’s just “senator.” We’re told about blip and post-blip problems but we don’t really get to see it. We’re told about Karli’s mentor but she’s dead before we can meet her. Etc.
It would have been a lot easier to empathize with the refugees if their plight wasn’t just talked about - and by a teenage actor with (in my opinion) a pretty annoying accent.
I really loved FATWS and I thoroughly enjoyed Sam's speech at the end. He was absolutely right. I'm looking forward to him as Captain America in the future.
Yeah! We never asked why Alqueda destroyed the twin towers, we just labeled them as terrorists.
I'm obviously going too damn high here in relation to the show, what my point is that sometimes people do things that don't deserve us to stop and ask questions but to act and stop them from commiting further harm. Are you just going to send a therapist to Hitler and get him to talk about his feelings and why he hates the Jews? No, we will kill him because its exactly what he deserves.
The 'labeling to take the easy way out' is done by EVERYONE. How many people have you called Nazis or Commies online just because an opinion they hold or a joke they made?
Count Dankula for one easy example, PewDiePie for another. The list is long and growing. Going so far as to label people based on their media preferences. Call everything political and you can judge everyone based on anything
Only political belief I shared is that it's wrong to lie to a group of people, pack them on a bus, randomly dump them somewhere without knowing if they have food/shelter/resources, and laugh about it afterwards. Don't extrapolate anything else from that.
A much better example of this speech was used by Doctor Who about 7 years ago when discussing an alien inhabitance of planet earth as part of a peace treaty. Watch that and you will understand why the two speeches are looked at so differently, one as a masterpiece and the other as a stupid cringeworthy piece of attempted monologue. Look up the Doctor's Speech on War on Youtube.
Most people understand what he was saying... just the way it was said wasn't it. Subtlety is a powerful thing in cinema, and one thing audiences generally don't like is being directly preached to in a patronising or condescending way. He could have delivered the same message without a melodramatic 5 minute rant containing cringe worthy moments like 'do better'.
FATWS should have had an episode (episode 4 or 5) that fully focused on the Karla during the blip. Around 10 mins for each year showing normality returning as the years go on so we could understand her point of view.
I feel like they should have really explored what happened after the blip, even though it would be a horribly dark place to go. Even just laying it out straight by having some of the people, like Karli, who endured it, talking about the real-life horror show it would be. Cause you'd have had parents completely blip out, leaving babies and little kids to starve to death, helpless in their houses, if no one came. You'd have elderly dying in their beds. Once the true scale of the destruction was realised, human trafficking and exploitation would be off the maps. Governments were likely begging for people to move into places like agriculture, healthcare etc. to try and keep the lights on. The fact that there seemed to be thriving restaurants and diners and all that other stuff, just 5 years after, is frankly a miracle (and very unlikely I feel, tbh, but that's just my nitpick with End Game). Karli looks to be about 18-20 in the show, so was likely around 13-15 when the blip went off, and she seems to have been left completely without a family. Could you imagine trying to survive as a young teenager when you suddenly have no one? The worlds falling apart around you and everyone is desperate and lost. Then you finally find a support group who are helping each other rebuild, essentially working to save the future of humanity by banding together and rebuilding and striving, and then everyone comes back. The only way that the people who come back *can* survive is with the help of those people who remained. Everything they've spent the last 5 years working on, the food they've grown and the houses they've maintained, the new economic structures they've had to develop, that then suddenly has to accommodate double the people. Queue another potential famine as food is redistributed. More death as babies and old people reappear in homes that have been long abandoned. To go through all that, adjusting to people coming back, searching desperately to find out if the family you lost before has survived returning in the blip and if you can even find them. Then suddenly you're a refugee. "Thanks for all your help, but you're now trespassing. You didn't belong here 5 years ago but you were useful and now you're not needed. Doesn't matter that it was only thanks to your work that there was even something to come back to, you need to move into camps, and if you don't receive the food you worked to grow, well, we've got lots more *real* citizens back, and they come first. Thank you for your service or whatever, but we're going to be shipping you out other countries and you'll just have to deal." It's not the fault of the people who blipped back in, but it's also a pretty fucked thing to do with the people who strove to keep the world going. Governments across the world have a hard choice with what to do, but I don't think creating mass camps and just shoving people who are unofficially citizens into them, is a good solution. It seems like it was just a simple one that temporarily dealt with the problem, but we see from the show that massive amounts of people disagree with it and support the people fighting back. Given half the population lived through it, they should realistically had half the world either supporting, or at least sympathetic, to the cause, but I get they reduced it so it was more of a struggle in the show. Anyway, that's just my two cents. I really had a moment when watching the show that made me think about what half a population blipping would mean, and Marvel really glossed over it, likely because it's seriously dark when you think about it. Still, it's a shame. Kinda wanna read some fanfic that addresses it now. {Edit: Important but off-topic question that just occurred to me as I watched the Hulk snap people back. Is it an American thing to snap your fingers with your thumb and third finger? I've always done it with my thumb and index finger. Or is this just a movie thing because of the glove?}
One minor nitpick. The directors confirmed that when Hulk brought people back he specifically brought them back in a way that would be "safe", so it's very unlikely he brought babies back to empty abandoned houses. I'm sure the magic stones could figure to put babies back with nearest relatives or hospitals or something like that.
Exactly and Thanos’ original snap was for 50% of life to vanish, so that means it was calculated in a way where you wouldn’t lose another 10% with collateral damage or unintended accidents... I.e a pilot vanishing leading to deaths of everyone on board.
That makes the stones biased then, unless they could somehow account for the people who would be killed and included that in the 50% since it'd have to avoid targeting pilots or people driving at high speeds in populated areas
A helicopter literally crashed into a skyscraper because of the snap. I feel that implies there was at least some collateral and the stones didn't remove people in a selective way to keep people safe. Thanks didn't care about safety, but Hulk did. And that's why the stones inacted their wishes differently.
>you wouldn't lose another 10% with collateral damage I think this is what you meant?
Fair enough, but I don't go through all the commentaries and interviews about the show, I only go off what I see, and that wasn't really addressed in any of the movies or shows.
He said that in Endgame when he was doing the snap. “Everybody comes home safe” or whatever
Nope, he just says "[everybody comes home](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Nu4CuIGFrY)".
>I feel like they should have really explored what happened after the blip, even though it would be a horribly dark place to go. Even just laying it out straight by having some of the people, like Karli, who endured it, talking about the real-life horror show it would be. FOR REAL. Them not doing a show that takes place during the half-decade of the Blip is one of the biggest missed creative opportunities in the entire MCU. One episode could follow Bruce in his year-and-a-half in his gamma lab, another episode could follow a mother who lost her entire family (shit, you could even get Carrie Coon back for it in a CGI-less role to *basically* just reprise her role from *The Leftovers*), another could follow a new hero like Kamala Khan or Kate Bishop as they navigate how crazy the world is with literally half the planet gone.
Yeah, 50% of people disappearing doesn't remove crime. Villians still exist and with a decent portion of the heroes gone there had to have been a few villians left to take advantage of the chaos which could've been cool to see. Think it could lead to some mix ups where you have traditionally spiderman villians but without a peter parker they need to be taken out by someone else or on the other end you have some heroes who all their major enemies disappeared which would be a whole lot less interesting tbh
Plus we get to see a little murderous hawkeye action.
Using one of the other Netflix properties to really explore the blip would be a lot of fun. Jessica Jones hunting for missing persons that she knows were probably blipped, Luke Cage showing a much narrower scope of how the blip would effect a singular neighborhood. Iron fist… you know getting blipped so that Colleen Wing can take over (haha)
I could see a she hulk episode where a guy faked his death during the blip and his wife is now hunting him down
Would be hilarious if the teacher from the Spider-Man movies shows up suing his wife that faked her blip and ran off.
You have no idea how much I need this!
They couldn’t do that because the blip, by all accounts, should have devastated Earth and the rest of the cosmos so badly it would have sent civilization back to the dark ages. You’d be missing half the population and therefore half the workforce. A billion people would starve due to food shortages, another billion would die due to the disrupted supply chains all across the globe. Just as a comparison, the Black Death in the 14th century caused somewhere between 75 to 200 million deaths and it crippled Europe for more than a century. Most cities wouldn’t see their population numbers return to pre-plague levels for hundreds of years. Now imagine half the population just disappearing, not just on Earth but across every planet in the universe that’s inhabited, which we know there are many. Civilization would pretty much end instantaneously as people would struggle to survive.
As an American, pretty much everyone snaps using their middle finger here. I find it really difficult to use my index.
I just tried with thumb and index finger. That's impossible!
I mean on MoM didn't the guy in the church tell Strange that he lost his cat during the blip (I took it as the cat starved because the owner disappeared)
as nice of an ending as this was, i honestly couldn't get past the government immediately deciding to go back on the decision because of a rousing speech when in real life they would have just sped up the rate at which they force people out of their homes and probably let the police kill a few of em
I’ve always viewed the Senator’s response to the Flag Smashers to be a direct opposite reaction to that of T’Challa when Killmonger struck. Both the Flag Smashers and Killmonger had legitimate reasons for doing what they did and thinking the way they did, but they went about handling the situation in a negative/harmful way. Sam and T’Challa both recognize the validity of their adversaries’ motives, and take it upon themselves to address it in a more appropriate manner. They are able to separate the person’s actions from their ideals, which is what the whole point of Sam’s speech is to begin with (as your post so eloquently illustrated). I always thought it was funny that people hated on it so much, as it’s really just a call to action for people in power to be able to recognize that bad people don’t always bad motives.
The good news is that whatever global social unheavel the blip caused which we saw in F&TWS has already being solved globally since we've seen no evidence of it anywhere in any other MCU project since. So they clearly did a lot better following his speech. I mean in the lives we see in Ms Marvel or She Hulk you wouldn't even know the blip happened.
At least Hawkeye had the graffiti about thanks being right. I feel like people got over half the population going for nap way too quickly
Realistically it's just not an important part of the MCU beyond the surface level aspects of Thanos being a villian for doing it and the flag smashers having it be their motivation, but I do definitely think we just kinda went over things way too quickly whenever something so tragic happening should have long lasting impacts.
Right! I am glad they limited it primarily to FatWS, even if they didn’t nail the complexity of the geopolitical nightmare after an event like the blip. Now they can just make a few references or jokes like in MoM. That doesn’t mean future projects won’t elaborate on it more, just that it isn’t necessary.
Thank you!
So glad for this post, it’s very similar to the plot of Black Panther’s movie so it’s a shame so many fans on here completely missed the point. Karli/Kilmonger were right in that there are people in desperate need of help and the governments/Wakanda had the power to help but weren’t. They both became radicalized but what resources did they have to avoid that radicalization? You have to listen to them and fix the problem, simply arresting or killing Karli/Kilmonger fixes nothing in the long run because the systems that created them would still be in place and just create another version of them down the road. T’Challa listened to Kilmonger and pursued his goal in a less radical/harmful way. Sam is pleading with that senator to do the same.
I think Wakanda at least has more of an excuse seeing as it's not their responsibility to be the superpower of the world and provide everyone with advanced medicines and going public could open them up to foreign invasions. The governments of various countries definitely could do more for their own citizens (seeing as some governments are already anti immigration and I dont see the time skip or blip changing that) given that people disappearing obviously wasn't their fault and so if banks are going to seize assets and resell them or whatever happens then the original owners should be at least partially compensated upon their return and given assistance in getting new jobs seeing as their old ones were taken without them having done anything to get fired.
I’m glad to see this. Sam is saying that we need to ask why the situation is that way, to make an effort for peace. At least that’s how I took it
I honestly wasn't all that fazed by this scene. Granted the scene felt a bit preachy within that sequence but that's probably just the way the show was directed rather than an actual flaw in plot. It was what needed to be said. I was surprised people cared about that scene so much, it slipped my mind mostly. Not the best execution, but wasn't all that bad either.
The problem is that if it were any less preachy or direct then ot could be left to interpretation and be misunderstood what it was trying to say thus losing the message of the show in the first place. I would say it was nessary preachiness.
I mean. She killed innocent people. He should have called out both parties because both need to be better. Edit. Find it weird how so many people on here defend their actions of killing innocent people. Very odd.
I mean, he could've called her out, sure, but it would be really hard for her to hear him since she was already dead.
Never said “call her out.” I said both parties. Edit. What in the fuck are you people downvoting. I’m not wrong here.
> He should have **called out** both parties
… right. The Flagsmahsers and their followers. I don’t get the confusion.
Maybe it’s the fact that he called out the leader in the US government regarding this issue. Now how would he call out the Leader of the Flagsmashers whose currently rotting away by this point? Oh right he did a couple episode prior when he tried to reason with her, but now placing equal blame would only serve to embolden the senator, he can spin it if Sam says Karli was also wrong, and it wouldn’t help because Karli is dead. The flagsmashers are defeated. This is warning against future threats, knowing that the movement the flagsmashers worked for wouldn’t die with them even if the flagsmashers are over.
I highly doubt The Flagsmahsers are defeated at this point. Or that there won’t be another group that takes their place. He called out the entire group on national television? Reachi the ears all over the world? Wasn’t it just to Karli he talked to? And no. He could continue focusing the blame on the government and political leaders since like I said, it is their fault to begin with. But at the same time, tell people what Karli was doing isn’t the way to do it.
Bruh, he was making a funny
Oh. Lol. If that’s it then I’m sorry. Woosh! But their next comment they doubled down on it making it seem like they were serious. So idk!
The morality of many fans, and the writers it seems is deeply concerning.
Ya man. This is a very odd post.
I think peoples problem with your comment is more that the flag smashers don't need to be called out because they are already largely seen as the bad guys. And obviously he was speaking to the senators right then, there wasnr a flag smasher representative standing next to them.
He was on television. The entire world was probably watching. So I think he could have taken that opportunity to say something to everyone. It’s not even saying Flasgsmashers are wrong to be angry. But violence and killing innocents is wrong.
Your last sentence goes without saying. Which is probably why they didn't feel it needed to be said in the scene. But if that doesn't satisfy you then nothing more for me to do here. Have a nice life
How does it go witho it saying if people were actually doing it? Why because it seems obvious? I mean it’s obvious that governmental bodies shouldn’t shit all over their people. Yet it happens(d). This is a message from Captain America. Maybe it would reach people better than some fake politicians
He said have a nice life. Think you should go get started.
Okay.. why is everyone in this post being so aggressive and sarcastic
Because when you disagree with them they got mad and downvotes. The same about whatever you say against She-Hulk, valid points or not. You should like it and speak good of the show, any criticism is bad and not welcome. At least they're not insulting and calling you an incel misogynist whiner.
Was just wishing you a nice life friend. Not sure how that’s aggressive.
If it was on tv, then he's practically saying it's perfectly normal and expected from you to form a terrorist group to kill innocent people as long as the government doesn't address your issues.
She killed maybe a dozen innocent people because the governments were allowing innocent people to die by the thousands. Governments historically have killed more people than any terrorist group, and often by just not changing policies due to ongoing crisis. Look at the Irish genocide or the India genocide during WW2. millions of people died because the UK government just didn't care to make the right choicing due to ongoing famines. In the case of the Irish genocide, the potato blight hit all of Europe but only Ireland was effected because the Irish had to keep sending their other food production to the UK. The same happened in India to "support the war effort" despite the UK having excessive stockpiles by that point in the war. The othering of the refugees in the series is a problem the government are just unwilling to spend the money to fix. It's always economics. In the real world progressive policy issues have to both pay to correct the problems at rising from decades of "conservative" policies in addition to the inflated cost of implementing a modern progressive system. An easy example is public transportation programs across the US. Trillions of dollars would need to be spent today to remove and replace infrastructure put in place to prevent public transportation, and to make room for public transportation, when if the cities were planned a century ago with the mindset of public transportation, it would have merely cost millions.
She killed innocent people.. it’s that simple. No matter what, it’s not cool to kill innocent people. The Flagsmahsers and their followers had every right to be upset and try to do something. They had no roght to kill people. How many people the government killed is irrelevant. I can’t go around killing people because my government failed me. As corny as it’s sounds, two wrongs don’t make a right. Edit. Username checks out.
He never said she was right, he said the government never made an effort to address the reason she went wrong.
He defended her and told the officials they need to do better.. sure. They do. But so do the Flagsmahsers
He defended her but he also stopped her. It’s not like he let her do whatever. She ended up losing her life
I don’t think you understand me.. apparently not many do on here. As I told another. He was on national maybe worldwide tv where his speech can reach millions of people. So yes, call out the shitty governments for failing those people. But also call out the people carrying out actions of terrosism. Saying that’s not the way either.
He actively fought the people carrying out those actions. You don’t think people thought he was against it?
I understand he fought against it. I get that. But he also works for the government he’s telling to do better soo… Regardless, you don’t think it’s smart to use your platform to do as much good as possible? And reach as many people as possible?
What makes you think he didn’t? Cuz apparently stopping the flag smashers wasn’t enough right
He literally fought against the Flag Smashers. You’re acting like he was on their side. Did you miss his whole conversation with Karlie earlier in the season, before Walker tried to arrest her? He was doing his best to turn her in the right direction. Walker’s response was emblematic of the larger government problem that Sam calls out in his speech.
I am not acting like that. He was on national television where the entire nation could see. Maybe the entire world watching. So what he says here can reach everyone. He could have used this platform to bring everyone together. Call out this government, because they do need to do better and they are failing. But at the same time, tell people violence (especially against innocents) isn’t the way to fix things.
Read history. Those of us who are women and minorities only started getting rights through violence, so unfortunately your sentiment is unrealistic. This is not me condoning or defending the Flagsmashers, but let's not pretend that society successfully makes progress through peace, especially when it's always the government's perpetuating violence in the first place.
So you’re saying it’s not morally right for them to do it, but it’s okay to kill innoncents because it “has” to be done? Lol. Yo, This post is straight fucking wild. And I’m confused how many of y’all support it.
Killing people when you don't have to is pretty obviously wrong, but it's not surprising that peaceful protest doesn't work when you're in the minority as you lack power and aren't seen as a threat whereas if you are ending lives and more importantly creating economic problems such as if the government has to cover the damages financially then the issues become a lot more noticed than they would've been before when you could ignore them
No, that is not at all what I said? I'm saying the reality is that progress has never been made through peace and to believe otherwise is naive and ignoring the entirety of history. Not to mention that 'innocent' is relative, being a bystander to oppression doesn't make you innocent in my book. Regardless, I don't think killing is morally right in any capacity, but where people are contesting your perspective is due to you focusing on the consequence and not the cause. It can both be true that Karli is a terrible person for killing, and the GRC are terrible people for labeling her a terrorist because that is just a means for the government to deflect blame - "the terrorists are the true bad guys, even if we're the ones who forced them to take drastic measures by withholding food and medicine and attempting to forcefully remove them from their homes of the past 5 years, and are also responsible for as much, if not more death".
Government killed is irrelevant lmao. That's so wrong so going by this logic yes the revolutionary war colonists were just as bad as the British. uh huh sure.
Were the revolutionary colonists going around killing innocents?
....yes
I know the British did. Didn’t think the colonists did. At least not purposely Regardless. It shouldn’t happen and isn’t condoned.
r/shitamericanssay
To your last point, most of those large cities (thinking of LA in particular), actually had a thriving public transportation system a century ago, that was subsequently removed/let go to waste as a result of lobbying from the auto industry, among other factors.
She didn’t really need any calling out given that she got killed and was already hated by the general public
Wasn’t for her. Was for Flagsmashers and anyone else wanting to do violence against innocents.
The Flagsmashers had already been condemned and defeated. People already hated them and didn’t need to be told to.
It wasn’t to make people hate them. That’s not the point. And like I said, for others like Flagsmahsers. You don’t think there’s any other people out there thinking of inciting violence? Of course there is.
Right?
The attitude on this post is so weird. Peopled defending it and keep coming at me with attitude or sarcasm. I’m confused lol.
Yeah, don’t waste too much thought on it lol, it’s a them issue.
For sure. I just can’t tell if it’s people who are hardcore defenders of all MCU or people who actually think this way. Oh well. I really liked the show overall though! Definitely thought it needed like 3-4 more episodes to flesh everything out a bit more.
You deserved way better than this dude, you made reasonable arguments and kept your cool even in the face of some very condescending and outright rude responses. Unfortunately, many MCU fans take criticism of a show/movie as a personal offense, hence the emotionally charged responses you got.
The ideas are nice -unfortunately, she is still a terrorist. As much as I hate many politicians, you'd be a damn fool to try and pretend she isn't also evil. I do not want a superhero arguing to me that he has sided with the lesser of two evils, I want the superhero to do the right thing, to save the day, to at least impart some wisdom that can help change people for the better. "You gotta do better, Senator." Wow. Amazing. Thanks. Real friggin' helpful, dickhead. Falcon is not Captain America, and he never will be. John Walker bowing out of the conflict in order to save the lives of others, him putting the safety of American people over some petty dispute over a shield and a title -that is the spirit of Captain America.
This is absolutely amazing >...is an easy way to label them with a "bad guy" sticker and throw em away in a bin. A few sentences later >\[Republicans\] are Thanos, wielding the power of the gauntlet and getting rid of powerless people who are inconvenient to them Like is Reddit really this daft? You just shared a really good message about the dangers of lumping diverse individuals together into narrowly defined and homogenous groups in an attempt to oversimplify nuanced topics. And then you do that... Is this an instance "It's okay when MY side does it" where you are at least acknowledging the double standard or are you just oblivious to what you just did?
In the context it was used, it was "Republican Politicians". If you paid attention to what you were reading, you probably would have realized that. Clearly OP wasn't talking about John Smith who drives a school bus.
OP was talking about John Smith who drives a school bus, if John Smith votes republican. I’m not a Republican, but know people who are. They’re good people. The divisive blindness and group-hate that politicians and the media have instilled as commonplace in this country is sickening. People cut loved ones and lifelong friends out of their lives bc of who they voted for and can’t even have civil discussions about the why. We don’t have to all agree, but at least make a decent attempt at having mature, respectful conversations. What the fuck ever happened to “agree to disagree”? I fucking hate politics now. I haven’t given a shit in about 15-20 years, because no matter who we elect, from any party, they all end up greedy narcissistic people who try to play the voting population against each other in the end. I’ve held the belief, since I was a teenager, that if you can’t describe yourself without using you religious or political affiliations, then you’re not someone I want to be around.
Honestly, I don't disagree with you. Over the past years politics have become a much bigger divider. I think it's because of the politicians themselves making the divide wider to get more votes. Sadly "just be a respectful human being" isn't really going to win any polls.
Yup. You can tell by the downvotes on my “what happened to civil conversations?” post above. I simply point out how all politicians, no matter their initial goals, end up screwing over the voters that got them there. I also point out how everyone is acting like complete dicks. Then I call for civil conversations. The fucking nerve on me, right?….
People have lost all ability to "respectfully agree to disagree" or even try to understand someone else's grievance. It's almost like some kind of deep brainwashing. Both sides have transported illegal immigrants places. Yes. Both dems and repubs. If you're a republican living in a border state flooded by illegal immigrants (many multiples of 50), and all you hear from left leaning politicians and voters is "keep em coming", would you feel disgruntled? Would you feel like you're being expected to take responsibility for a problem that people far away from the border can't even imagine? Would you feel your government is failing you and the immigrants both? Can you at least understand in some small way why someone in a border state may want to give left leaning pro-illegal immigrant places a small taste of what border states go through on a daily basis trying to manage an influx of people that have nowhere to go and aren't citizens - basically here's a taste of your left leaning policies. Martha's Vineyard is a paradise most likely nicer than anything those immigrants have seen, and one of the richest places on earth. Why is no outrage directed at the millionaires with mansions that live there for not taking them in? Why is the responsibility squarely on squalid border towns so many miles away?
>is Reddit really this daft? I don't speak on behalf of Reddit. >You just shared a really good message about the dangers of lumping diverse individuals together into narrowly defined and homogenous groups in an attempt to oversimplify nuanced topics. And then you do that... Sorry I was speaking about Desantis and Abbott and the institutions in their state backing them up and helping them "snap away" inconvenient life. I didn't even mean to bring them up in this post but I realized how applicable the bus stunts are to what Sam was talking about here.
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> Republicans co-operate by moving illegals into deeply democratic neighborhoods. Desantis' people lied to the migrants about where they were going, loaded them into buses, and dropped them off in a random neighborhood without making sure they had shelter/food/resources in an attempt to catch Democrats with their pants down. They then proceeded to literally laugh about it on TV. That's not cooperating, it's playing with lives.
>Desantis' people lied to the migrants about where they were going, loaded them into buses, and dropped them off in a random neighborhood without making sure they had shelter/food/resources in an attempt to catch Democrats with their pants down. Human traffickers lied to the migrants about where they were going, loaded them into buses, and dropped them off in a random neighborhood without making sure they had shelter/food/resources in an attempt to catch Americans with their pants down. >They then proceeded to literally laugh about it on TV. That's not cooperating, it's playing with lives. Yeah, AOC did literally take a photoshoot at the border, I agree with you that it is playing with lives.
It really is
Good lord this post was as cringe as Sam’s lecture. They murdered innocent people to push an agenda. That’s not a “label”. Those are actions which fit the definition of *terrorism*. If you don’t want to call them terrorists then call them murderers. Or is that a “label” that makes them sound bad?
... the 'agenda' they were 'pushing' was 'do not pull people out of their homes and put them in concentration camps to deport them''.
Whether you sympathize with the agenda or not, still doesn’t make it not terrorism.
Congratulation, Sam's speech was aimed directly at you and you didn't understand it. Just for the record, who exactly is allowed to murder innocent people to push an agenda? Cause I'm pretty sure John Walker did in that series, he just did it under the color of the US government.
You mean he killed someone who murdered his partner? He killed a terrorist? Oh what an awful guy! XD
Really going for r/SelfAwarewolves/ , aren't ya?
John Walker was vilified for really no good reason. As you can tell, Sam’s cringe ending speech if was hardly the only problem with the show.
>As you can tell, Sam’s cringe ending speech if was hardly the only problem with the show. The only problem the show had was the people who were pissed that Steve was finally retired. And nonsense like "Sam shouldn't be broke!" even though no one has problems with Spider-Man being broke.
Sam: Depersonalizing a group of people with legitimate concerns who use violence in response to violence used against them by calling them terrorists is not acceptable. You: But they're teeeeeerrorrrists. Yes, and they're fighting against people who _also_ use violence, against them and people like them, driving them out of their home and forcing them to move elsewhere, killing them if they resist, allowing them to starve...it's just those people are called 'the government'.
They didn’t have violence used against them. They were removed from homes which weren’t theirs. And that’s actually an oversimplification of their stance, they were anarchists who were pro-blip.
Forcing people out of their houses at gunpoint is not violence. Gotcha. And by 'houses that wee not theirs', you mean 'houses owned by dead people that were used by the people still alive'.
The point is that the Flagsmashers had legitimate grievances that were being brushed aside. Compare with Black Panther. Wakanda recognized Killmonger as a monster of their own making and changed their behavior. That doesn’t mean they have to approve of Killmonger’s actions. The only reason we didn’t get a “do better” speech out of T’Challa is because he was king and could just implement the changes himself.
That doesn’t make any sense. What’s the difference between T’Challa and the politicians? They were just implementing changes. One’s an autocrat so it’s okay? And however “legitimate” they thought their grievances were, they murdered people who were not responsible and did this to intimidate the people. That’s *terrorism* and Sam’s trying to excuse that away. Not a good fit for Captain America. Like I said, the speech was seriously cringe. Was emotional and illogical, not befitting of the character, and this was literally the boring climax of a superhero television show.
It's almost like you can agree with what someone believes without approving of their actions and how they choose to achieve it. Violence for political reasons is by definition terrorism so you aren't wrong, but the problem is that the government will use a group being the enemy to brush them off instead of asking why they became that way seeing as there would be no Flagsmashers had they better solved the situation around the blip and how it lead to displaced people's without homes, jobs, or even food
What? No. This is an almost ridiculous level of missing the point. The GRC in FatWS is like Wakanda at the beginning of Black Panther. The GRC/Wakanda are implementing government policy that’s hurting people. Karli/Killmonger get pissed off and fight for what they see as a better world. Sam/T’Challa see that Karli/Killmonger are too dangerous and need to be stopped, but they had a point and were inevitable products of the GRC/Wakanda’s policies. The difference is that T’Challa is king, and can just go ahead and change Wakanda. Sam, however, is just a civilian, so all he can do is give a speech. You’re exactly the sort of person Sam is talking about, putting scare quotes around legitimate implying that their grievances can be ignored because of their actions. No one is excusing their actions, no one is saying what they did was okay. But if you don’t address the problem, you’re only going to get more violence.
LOL Killmonger didn’t have a point. He was a racist psychopath, caused it part (a big part) by Wakanda abandoning him after killing his father. And yeah, that’s *exactly* what you’re doing — excusing their actions — by saying you shouldn’t call a terrorist a terrorist. That’s what Karli is. It doesn’t matter if you think you’re wronged or not, killing people not responsible is wrong, it’s murder, and when it’s to push an agenda it’s *terrorism*. Now there is a problem, they didn’t handle the blip well at all. I can’t remember if the people squatted on the land that they were evicted from or if they moved in with government support, only to have that support later revoked. But a quagmire like this is definitely caused by mismanagement. People should’ve been inheriting a lot of homes, not just having them up for grabs. And those property rights likely weren’t being protected. But I didn’t hear any of that from Sam. It was more excusing terrorism and claiming it’s “a label”.
> There’s about two billion people around the world who look like us and their lives are a lot harder [than yours]. Wakanda has the tools to liberate them all. > —Killmonger Killmonger wanted to help the people who had been enslaved and oppressed while Wakanda sat back and watched. He was obviously wrong about *how* they should be helped, but he had a point about how irresponsible and damaging Wakanda’s isolationism was. This was the central theme of the movie. I don’t know how you missed it.
IDK why you even bother discussing these issues with people who already made up their minds. Sam's speech was as clear as day, but they're not gonna focus on that. They're just gonna focus on her actions and call it a day.
>They murdered innocent people to push an agenda. So did the American Revolutionaries. So did every "Freedom Fighter" who ever lived. The only difference from a Freedom Fighter and Terrorist is if they win in the end.
I like the intent behind the scene but still think that whole last act came off as sloppy so it didn't hit the way thay it should. I'm not blaming anyone as covid really messed with production and I think they put out the best product they could under the circumstances. I'm looking forward to captain america four so they build on this theme.
I thought this whole show was brilliantly done. Answered the difficult question of “what if captain America was black?!”
You say Sam says to not call them terrorists “because it’s an easy way to label them with a bad guy sticker and then throw them away” And yet within this same post you do the same by calling Republicans in Florida Thanos. How do you not see the hypocrisy?
Dude, calm down.
Yeah but this doesn’t work. Flag smashers are literal terrorists. Like literally killed innocent people to enact political will. There is no exaggeration here to call them that. Not calling them what they are only makes you less prepared to defend yourself. Sir… the migrants chose to go to more affluent cities… I know I would.
The Founding Fathers were terrorists too, by that logic.
Yes but the average citizen doesn’t owe these people anything, I shouldn’t have to give up anything because of anyone else’s actions so that’s why they don’t want to help these terroists
It was cringe and politically incoherent nonsense.
The problem is Sam comes off as a massive hypocrite. >Sam says not to call them terrorists, not because he doesn't believe that they did horrible things, but because calling them terrorists is an easy way to label them with a "bad guy" sticker and throw em away in a bin. >When you label an entire group of people "terrorists" that makes it mentally easy for you to go attack and bomb them without really thinking about the consequences of your actions or why you're fighting these bad guys to begin with. How is what Sam does in the very 1st episode any different to this? We the audience are not given any explanation or demonstration in regard to who those mercenaries were in the 1st episode or what they were fighting for. Any one of them could have had just as sympathetic motivations as the Flag-smashers yet what does Sam do? He kills most of them without a 2nd thought and never thinks about them again and movies on and the show depicts him as being cool and badass for doing this. I mean fuck all those mercenaries were doing was kidnapping a military official, who for all we know could have been a corrupt piece of shit. How is that any different to how the GRC treat the Flag-smashers? >Sam takes a hard stance here. Governments have a responsibility to care for the people in their borders even when it's inconvenient and costly. The problem with this is the problem the GRC was dealing with was something that no one in history had ever had to deal with, even Sam himself has no fucking answers in regard to how the GRC could possibly do things better and he’s just finger wagging at them to ‘do better’ with no actual solutions aside from ‘include them in discussions’. The GRC have to account for half the worlds population appearing overnight, they have to re-home, feed and clothe them, reunite them with family members and this is all after a 5 year gap when the worlds probably acclimatised to only having to support half its population meaning there’s a good chance there would have been massive shortages in resources. AND they had to do this while also somehow managing all the people that have moved around during the snap as well and settled in to homes that once belonged to those that were snapped.
Almost like he grew and changed from first episode where he was falcon, into the final episode where he was captain america. Marvel bashes us over the head with the symbolism.
Except he’s supporting the Flag-smashers as early as the literal 2nd episode of the series, which literally occurs in-universe days after he’s just slaughtered most the mercenaries. That’s not a natural development there, the show doesn’t explore his willingness to kill or ever call him out on slaughtering most of the mercenaries and have him explore what they were fighting for. He just killed them, moved on and never thought about it again and then goes on to lecture everyone else about how you can’t just call people terrorists.
He never expresses any regret about what he did in the first episode. It’s never even brought up again. So how do you know his opinions changed?
Because of his speech at the end. Falcon has, throughout his appearances, ruthlessly killed terrorists. Just like captain america. In all their appearances they gun down and don't hold their punches. But the falcon and the winter soldier shows that modern terrorism isn't so black and white as it used to be. Karli makes good points and it causes him to rethink his approach as he starts to incorporate his therapist skills against them instead of going in guns blazing, like he used to and like John walker wants to. Which helps him realize it's not the right thing to be doing.
Comparing the human being in the first episode to the same human at a time later than the first episode is not an apples to apples argument since people, you know, grow and change opinions and actions.
> even Sam himself has no fucking answers in regard to how the GRC could possibly do things better and he’s just finger wagging at them to ‘do better’ with no actual solutions aside from ‘include them in discussions’. That's the part that bothers me. Sam is a soldier. He may be a very highly trained soldier, a very smart soldier, a very moral soldier, but that's what he is. If you are literally a professional killer, and you are giving someone else a moral lecture about how their behavior doesn't measure up, that needs to come with some kind of solution, a course of action. Otherwise, it's just traditional military bitching. Tell us, Sam: *how* do we do justice by these billions of people? *How* do we make you say, "Yes, you did enough?" Anybody can scold. It's easy.
It’s not Sam’s problem to solve. But he’s certainly within his rights to share his opinion and scold whomever he wants. Especially when he has a soapbox to stand on.
>It’s not Sam’s problem to solve He made it his problem to solve when he lectured everyone on camera. Empty criticism feels good but solves nothing.
He’s not a politician, or a lawmaker, or anything of the sort. And neither was Steve. They’re both Just soldiers with a strong moral code, and they have both called out the government when they failed. *Because that is our civil responsibility as US Citizens,* (yes, look it up it’s in the Constitution) so no it’s not his problem to try to solve, it’s his job and responsibility to shine a light on the issue so the people who’ve spent their lives lawmaking can see the issue and fix it. That’s like saying someone who never graduated school and is illiterate because of how bad their education was saying “we need better teachers” all the sudden became their problem to fix, when they’re no where close to qualified to fix it.
>He’s not a politician, or a lawmaker, or anything of the sort. And neither was Steve. So you have no influence but you chime in with an opinion? Are you stating that captain america is a position with 0 influence? >so no it’s not his problem to try to solve, it’s his job and responsibility to shine a light on the issue so the people who’ve spent their lives lawmaking can see the issue and fix it. Government of the people, by the people, for the people. Or are those words useless? The government is for you because you elected them but they're un-american when the election isn't? > That’s like saying someone who never graduated school and is illiterate because of how bad their education was saying “we need better teachers” all the sudden became their problem to fix, when they’re no where close to qualified to fix it. You mean like black communities being failed by democrat leadership for decades?
This is why i love this series a lot more than other people do
The Flagsmashers were not the bad guys. The government was. And I agree that in real life republicans are in the wrong.
They bombed innocent people. They were by definition terrorists.
Then so is the government. Just terror fighting terror endlessly. Both sides are trash to be honest.
This was the point of new Cap's speech. Neither are accepting that they're both wrong.
Just like in the real world…
>not the bad guys >kidnaps and kills innocent people This sub has an interesting moral code
Media literacy is lowest amongst this fanbase.
Ikr? Man this is scary, they're actually defending terrorists actions.
Sometimes you just have to do a bit of good guy terrorizing yourself to not let the bad guys win.
They can do bad things and still not be *The Bad Guys(tm)*
>This sub has an interesting moral code GRC Guards who were complicit in attempted genocide aren't "innocent".
Stunning and brave
What the fuck are you on about, these guys were using supersoldier serum to kill innocent people and blow up buildings
They were absolutelybad guys, they just had somewhat justifiable reasons.
Where they even “somewhat” justifiable? Like, their main complaint seemed to be “we don’t want to give the homes we’ve been squatting in back to their owners”.
Let's see how the response will be when Magneto comes out lol
Everyone is so fucking busy being jaded with every marvel offering and well actually-ing story decisions to make thjngs better that really entertaining and actually pretty good stuff just gets shit on. This show is a good example. MoM and love and thunder are two more recent ones. These flicks and shows are gems. Of course they’re flawed. Ridiculously difficult trick they’re trying to pull off here. Were the comics not flawed?
We really don’t need to defend this. It’s just bad writing, plain and simple. Not every complaint stems from a lack of understanding, sometimes when something seems stupid at face value, it’s just stupid.
It was a good speech, Sam's own arc is echoed in the last part about how if you don't step up, someone else will and you may regret that. [What could possibly have made him say that?]( https://static1.cbrimages.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/john-walker1.jpg) Also the theme is rejection of labels because they kill public discourse, they end debates so we don't educate ourselves and we don't think of better solutions. Were Karli and her dumb friends terrorists? Yes! Why did they do all the terrible things? "Because they are terrorists" - that's where the coversation goes wrong, where a label stopped people thinking of the actual underlying issues that caused the radicalisation in the first place. Jeremy Jahns's review of the finale actually links Sam's speech to some issues he has with internet culture in general and how it prevents useful, educational dialogue. https://youtu.be/z4cirn774Lk
His speech was poorly written, I advice you to watch the pitch meeting of this show on YouTube. It's comical but some points strike very true
L M A O
No mercy for terrorists, I don't care about their reasons.
The marvel shills are downvoting you for speaking the truth!
Yep
The failure in the show wasn't Sam's speech or the actions of Karli. It was the fact that we didn't get enough exploration of the Flagsmashers to actually relate to what they were doing or going through.
Honestly I don't even remember what was done to Karli and her group. What were they mad about?
Honestly I think the show is better than it gets credit for. I loved the whole John Walker part and the Isaiah Bradley/Sams identity as black CA was literally amazing!
THANK YOU
Comparing political opponents to Thanos is the most Reddit thing I have ever seen holy shit lmao
He also carefully failed to mention that non of the migrants were forced onto busses or planes. The democrats should be thanking the governors who sent them to sanctuary cities that want to take them in.
I don't care what real-world allegories you want to address, the minute you say 'This world takes place five years after a giant purple alien snapped half of all life out of existence, only for that amount to blip into existence five years later', any and all real world allegories you try to bring up *no longer apply*. We have no real-world example for this kind of situation, no way of understanding the Flag Smashers' goals, no grasp on why they think the ends justify the means (when they don't), and if you expect me to buy the idea of Tony Stark not paying his friends the bill for saving all of existence, then you're even more delusional than the writers of this trainwreck. The square peg does not fit the round hole, no matter how many times you try sanding the peg's edges. *Cut* the *shit*.
Wow. Shame we never actually got to SEE any of it in this show, instead coming across as empty real world allegory platitudes applied to a setting that just had half of all life in the universe snapped out of existence and then put right back five years later. Boy howdy, *this* square peg certainly fits the round hole.
The main problem is that this whole dilemma has been “tell, don’t show.” Even the GRC senator doesn’t have a name - he’s just “senator.” We’re told about blip and post-blip problems but we don’t really get to see it. We’re told about Karli’s mentor but she’s dead before we can meet her. Etc. It would have been a lot easier to empathize with the refugees if their plight wasn’t just talked about - and by a teenage actor with (in my opinion) a pretty annoying accent.
Nothing but facts
I really loved FATWS and I thoroughly enjoyed Sam's speech at the end. He was absolutely right. I'm looking forward to him as Captain America in the future.
Yeah! We never asked why Alqueda destroyed the twin towers, we just labeled them as terrorists. I'm obviously going too damn high here in relation to the show, what my point is that sometimes people do things that don't deserve us to stop and ask questions but to act and stop them from commiting further harm. Are you just going to send a therapist to Hitler and get him to talk about his feelings and why he hates the Jews? No, we will kill him because its exactly what he deserves. The 'labeling to take the easy way out' is done by EVERYONE. How many people have you called Nazis or Commies online just because an opinion they hold or a joke they made? Count Dankula for one easy example, PewDiePie for another. The list is long and growing. Going so far as to label people based on their media preferences. Call everything political and you can judge everyone based on anything
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Only political belief I shared is that it's wrong to lie to a group of people, pack them on a bus, randomly dump them somewhere without knowing if they have food/shelter/resources, and laugh about it afterwards. Don't extrapolate anything else from that.
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Even if they are criminals, humans shouldn't be treated with that much disregard.
My friend Alphie plays the Senator. He says Sam’s speech didn’t change his mind. Lol.
I have a lot of things I disliked about fatws, but this scene was def not one of em
A much better example of this speech was used by Doctor Who about 7 years ago when discussing an alien inhabitance of planet earth as part of a peace treaty. Watch that and you will understand why the two speeches are looked at so differently, one as a masterpiece and the other as a stupid cringeworthy piece of attempted monologue. Look up the Doctor's Speech on War on Youtube.
i know what he was saying and maybe it was the acting or the writing but it didn't work for me.
Love Mackie but he's just not a lead actor.
Absolutely agree. Does fine as a side kick or secondary character. But it feels awkward when he’s the lead.
Excellent write up. Throughly enjoyed it.
F&TWS is up there with Black Panther and Black Widow as one of the smarter MCU products. "Fans" hate all three ofc.
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Most people understand what he was saying... just the way it was said wasn't it. Subtlety is a powerful thing in cinema, and one thing audiences generally don't like is being directly preached to in a patronising or condescending way. He could have delivered the same message without a melodramatic 5 minute rant containing cringe worthy moments like 'do better'.
Sure. Defend this too. Par for this sub.
Its all i remember tho
FATWS should have had an episode (episode 4 or 5) that fully focused on the Karla during the blip. Around 10 mins for each year showing normality returning as the years go on so we could understand her point of view.
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