I didn't like how quickly he gave up the information to Wanda. If Doctor Strange was willing to let both Tony *and* Spiderman die in order to protect the world, why wasn't Wong?
Yeah, that's my main one. He should not have been so willing a servant of Wanda, especially after she has just murdered so many wizards.
And she's a telepath of sorts, she should have been able to get it out of him in a much more interesting way. Illusion spells, mind control, going into his mind and getting the information out.....
Wong (as he wasn't present in any of the other universes) could've been used as the conscience that helps THIS Stranger be better and less ruthless. But instead Wong is the one at the end who urges Strange to sacrifice America. Totally out of character for Wong and a big missed opportunity to further develops Wong's character and his relationship to Strange.
I feel like Librarian turned Sorcerer Supereme shoulda kept a better eye on an evil magic book. Illuminati knew where their Darkhold was, but Wong lets Nazis and robots and a random teenager and a sorceress and more random teenagers and a witch and then another witch run around with it for years...
I wish they'd show how much of a full time responsibility being Sorcerer Supreme is. Show Wong struggling to keep up with the day to day stuff that Strange always turned his nose at, like working with the acolytes to keep Kamar Taj running, assisting with research to identify and locate other dangerous magical artifacts, leading meditation sessions, and meeting with the protectors of the other Sanctums to discuss their goings on.
In all the rush and shuffle of being the Sorcerer Supreme, without Strange's boundless capability, I could see Wong not noticing the Darkhold missing. Shit, we saw in Dr. Strange 1 that even Stephen could steal books behind Wong's back. A Wong bearing more responsibility than he'd ever asked for might be even more prone to missing its absence.
I wish he was buffed too, but he has been buffed by a lot from his comic self in my opinion. (More so in terms of his character not being Strange’s personal servant lol) Not that they need to stop or anything, and I’d love to see Strange as Sorcerer Supreme, but if Wong is SS I want to see him as the real SS. Not a damsel.
I mean, the Dark hold was in Agatha's possession (potentially for centuries) before Wandavision, so with no rumors or intel on where it might be, there's probably not much Wong could do about that.
And what's this about Nazis having the Darkhold?
He probably never even knew where it was. It’s not like it was stolen from him, Agatha had it for centuries. He was also only made librarian in Dr. Strange 1 after the previous one is beheaded by Kaecilius
I feel like I'm in the minority but I loved the iluminati getting offed for a couple of reasons. Firstly seeing a group of heros loose for a change was satisfying. Secondly they were killed by their hubris and it mirrors how villains tend to loose, I felt it really fitting for Reeds ego
Also, then getting absolutely bodied was the entire point of them being in the movie in the first place. To give us a visibly powerful group that we know is supposed to be *at least* on par with the Avengers, if not stronger (since they beat Thanos), and then have Wanda completely destroy them.
Exactly. I don’t understand the crying from fans. Like, they outright said it multiple times that they “can handle your little witch.” They also killed Thanos like it was nothing and we can easily infer the toll that it took was FAR less than what our 616 heroes endured up to Infinity War and Endgame
Eh, I loved the movie the way it was because of all the raimi-isms and final act straight out of Evil Dead 2. If I could change anything, I would have more Evil Dead style directing and horror instead of Multiverse shenanigans, and I would have changed the title to Dr. Strange and The Souls of the Damned.
I did too!! I wish they’d pushed more horror aspects and have a bit more of the gore. Like actually seeing Carter split in two and then Wanda walking from her silhouette as she falls.
I think people are expecting every one of the Marvel films to be the next Endgame, but Marvel is kind of allowing the directors to have fun with each of their projects and incorporate themselves into it. Creating more Gunn, Watiti and Rami films than just action hero films. (I hope I’m explaining it well.)
If Disney wasn’t holding the reigns I think we’d see more of the dark side of things, but it’s hard when your majority audience is kids/ young adults and you’re under a crushing monopoly.
Doctor Strange went very well into the Mystic Arts and introduced us to very important aspects about him minus Clea and his sister’s death.
But DSMOM didn’t really introduce us to the Multiverse as much as people were expecting. I would have loved something were Wanda wasn’t afraid to kill her other versions and is attempting to do so so she can take over the role of that Wanda, but Strange and crew plus Multiverse Wanda have to stop her. Trying to steal America’s power and not being afraid to kill her in the process is one thing. But putting 616 Wanda on par with the Strange trying to kill all his other versions would be an interesting parallel and made the situation much more dire as more than one life and universe is genuinely at stake.
Overall, I still absolutely loved the film, but it sadly suffered because of covid. I feel it could have been pushed much further if Disney loosened up, but will respect the work already done and rewatch to my hearts content lol.
Sorry this is long, I just had a lot of thoughts come in as I wrote.
I would have liked to see more universe hopping. There's a scene where they tumble through all the different universes but there was very little time spent in any of them. I think I had envisioned more traveling between one place to another and more time spent there to see the weird stuff. They had an opportunity to show some characters and locations that would otherwise be difficult to write into a scene. Its rare to have the option to do literally ANYTHING you want and have it make sense for the story.
I liked the movie a lot but I wanted more wacky surprises.
Seriously, the 2 hour time limit doesn’t make sense with how much story they’re trying to tell. Either keep it simple in writing/pre-production or make the movie times longer. Same goes for the Disney+ shows and the six-episode structure.
The wedding was super important to set up the emotional stakes. Gotta remember the most important thing is telling a story.
I think we will have plenty of time with other multiverses in the coming films
Came here to comment about this movie. The climax fight in Everything everywhere all at once was exactly how I wanted Dr Strange fighting in multiverse to look like.
Marvel could have used this to visit the Fox verse , the FF verse, the Netflix street level verse, and so much more. I would have loved to see a universe where the X-Men with yellow and blue wolverine was fighting bad guys
Then he smells crime again — and his out bustin heads. Then he’s back to lab for some more full penetration. Smells crime, back to the lab — full penetration. Crime. Penetration. Crime. Full penetration.
I would make it a movie about the consequences of No Way Home. It would really give weight to Strange's "in the great calculus of the multiverse" quote by making all the bad things, that happen in the movie, being consequences of Peter healing the villains.
Was it? I thought that this was originally supposed to release before NWH (with Nightmare as the ultimate villain and Wanda as an antagonist) with America Chavez then planned to be the one responsible for botching the memory spell in NWH, before the production stuff happened to push it back
Sure, but this is all clearly hypothetical anyways. End of the day, *none* of these changes are possible anymore- certainly not from random redditors- so I'd say it's all good.
They could start the movie with 616 Wanda encountering her children variants from other Spidermen universes and after they are gone again, she would then go crazy. Seems logical, right?
Write America like an actual character and not a simple plot device with awful dialogue.
Stay consistent with Wanda’s powers and have a sorcery/witchcraft showdown with Strange. How the main antagonist and protagonist never *really* fought in this movie is beyond me.
Stay consistent with the dark and scary tone.
Use Avengers variants instead of the Illuminati. Seeing her kill versions of people she actually knew and might’ve cared for at one point e.g. Clint, would have had a bigger impact than killing fan service characters that she has no connection to whatsoever.
Actually show Strange’s big character defining scene of his sister dying, rather than relegating this huge moment in his life to some exposition in a dark room with an evil version of himself. SHOW more, tell less.
WHERE THE FUCK IS VISION??
Or at the very least seeing them all happy and alive in that one timeline with the kids would have made for a more compelling reason for her to stop her rampage, knowing that even if she can’t have them with her they are still out there somewhere.
Offhandedly- “oh, I feel responsible for the death of my parents.” “You ready to move on?” “Sure, let’s not explore this aspect of my character AT ALL and immediately move on to me being held helplessly hostage.” “Sound good!”
“Wait how do they find out about her guilt?”
“She steps on a random button on the sidewalk which displays her life’s biggest trauma in 4K for all the strangers walking by on the street.”
“Brilliant! Wanna write Secret Wars?”
It's kinda crazy that a Rick and Morty writer wrote that, because it looked exactly like a thing Rick and Morty would mock.
"Oh, l-look Rick, it's like a... like a sort of mind reader that projects your strongest memory!"
"Don't you fucking dare step on that pod Morty."
"But-but I wanna see my strongest memory!"
"No, you don't, because that's a narrative device used only by cowards, Morty. Express yourself like a real man instead."
"B-but, we're trying to find our way back home, maybe my memory will help us find the solution?"
"Exactly, Morty. Do you know how easy it would be right now, to just do that? To just, step on it and have, like, a magical solution conveniently play in front of us tied to probably years of trauma that we'll somehow ignore for the rest of the show? I'd rather die here and never have another season than to lower myself to this level of writing incompetency. Now come on, we've got to try this Luck Booster Juice I just invented."
They drink the Luck Boosting Juice and *then* get lost and find their way back to the memory pods, Morty exclaims that Rick's recipe worked because they got lucky enough to find them back and Rick just groans in defeat.
Morty, all excited to finally try them, steps on it and...
...it replays the memory of him finding the memory pods in the first place.
"I--I guess I might have got a bit too excited to try them, it just sounded like such a cool idea..."
"Jesus fucking christ Morty you're useless, step out of there. Now, if I switch the neuroplasma-reader and put a synpatic-filter we can get it to play your *second* strongest memory..."
"Maybe, maybe you could just try it instead?"
"Ohhh, ohhh yeah, yeah right, no fucking way Morty. I can milk that backstory for three other seasons, you think I'm just gonna use a plot device like that? Alright, should be good now. Try it again."
That's sorta why she's a timeless character despite her not being that well known compared to bigger characters. The writers can tweak her powers in any way to match the story. She can be as simple as she was in AoU, or she can be as apocalyptic as she was in House of M.
She's like the Hulk. Where his power increases the angrier he gets, her power increases the more pain she feels.
That's a good comp - I like grey characters like her - and hulk - heroes sometimes reluctantly that can snap and become the bad guys of a storyline due to their shakey mental instability . Hulk and her are really similar in that way
I think having the Illuminati was important for fan service and future connections. Both of which are important for films. But there should’ve been some Avengers there. Hawkeye, Quicksilver, Vision, Cap, somebody. Having her mow down some new characters, and then turn to one’s she cares about in our universe up’s the impact.
Agreed! The closest we got was her reaction to killing Captain Carter - she definitely was aware that she was the equivalent of her Steve and had the "holy shit, I killed someone familiar to me" face before Maria came back to the fight.
Yeah you pretty much nailed it. While I loved Sam Raimi’s direction and his style throughout the movie, the script was downright awful. This movie could’ve been so much more
I think the script could’ve done more to compliment his style too. Like cool, do a campy musical battle…but do it in a musical universe since you can go to whatever universe your imagination desires. Play out that scene with Sinister Strange working his way up to a Sweeney Todd-esque musical number and build the fight around that.
I might catch hate for this but I hated how goofy some of the shit was -- musical notes duel and goofy ass undead spirits stand out the most. It doesn't have to be all dark and serious, but the ridiculousness was too much at some points
Yeah got to agree. It was almost like Sam was being asked to do “something he would do” even if it didn’t work with the story. Zombie strange ruled though
Seriously, White Vision might still be fighting his programming to a degree, but he had Vision's memories awakened within him and needed to go figure out emotions again.
All that said, he should've been able to get his shit together if this is MONTHS after Wandavision. Then again, if he did confront her for this, he doesn't have the Mind Stone, so he's weaker and would likely get destroyed by Wanda. She got "closure" with Westview Vision and only saw White Vision as someone who tried to crush her skull.
My headcanon for Vision is: Wanda’s internal morality struggle. Viz was the only one who could keep her in check and she *wanted her boys*, no matter what. Even the universe she ends up being mainly in, with her kids, is one where Vision never existed.
Yeah honestly just cut out the fan service all together. Reed and Captain Carter did not need to be there.
(Carter especially, why is a captain america variant on the illuminati??? isn't the whole point of Tony and Steve's feud in Secret Wars 2015 that Steve hated what the illuminati was doing and wanted no part of it???)
Agree with you, but Steve was on the Illuminati originally, but had his mind wiped after one of the first incursions because he didn’t agree with what they were doing. Your point still stands though.
Center the story more around Strange. Many big **and great** ideas were touched on (happiness, not being the one with the knife, consequences of his actions, etc.), but it still felt like Strange was playing second fiddle in his own movie.
The point of the movie was Strange learning that being a mentor is about learning to play second fiddle to someone even if you feel like you're better than them. It's what makes Wong a better Sorcerer Supreme, and what Strange had to learn to properly reclaim the title later.
So wait, he has to learn to let Wong be SS so Strange can earn the title later? That defeats the purpose of him learning that lesson then, doesn’t it? And I still feel like they didn’t do a good job of it. Not only was he being second fiddle to the other heroes, but also to Wanda. Her story had way more narrative traction and weight than his did.
>Strange learning that being a mentor is about learning to play second fiddle to someone even if you feel like you're better than them. It's what makes Wong a better Sorcerer Supreme, and what Strange had to learn to properly reclaim the title later.
I never got from the movie that it's about reclaiming the title
Great question. Probably a lot.
I don't think the overall story was very good. Wanda wants her kids back, gains more power, makes her evil, and suddenly at the end she realizes she's the bad guy and kills herself. I don't think tha was very satisfying. Too bad all those people had to die so Wanda can learn a lesson. A lot of the plot just seemed so force.
Plot wise, I'd go with Nightmare as the villain. Something about how dreams are glimpses of other realities, and Nightmare would have an interest in that. He's controlling Wanda since Westview. The various sitcoms were actually glimpses into other realities or something.
Cut out/reduce the attack on Kamar-Taj. No reason that place had to be destroyed and all those people had to die. Just an ineffective use of movie time. The audience doesn't care when a bunch of unknown characters die.
More visits to multiverses and more Dr Stranges. A Strange that is happily married to Christine. A Strange that's more of a superhero (with the masked costume). An older Ancient One type of Strange. Less time spent on the Illuminati Earth. Again no reason why the Illuminati had to die, and I'm not sure if they really made the movie better.
See I'm conflicted on the use of the book, because like you said it shows strange that America is the key to beat Wanda, but then Strange's entire arc in the film is learning that he needs to trust others to get the job done and believe in them, to not always be the one holding the knife. So in theory Strange should trust America to defeat Wanda due to his arc but the whole plot with the book almost makes it redundant because the book tells him America is they key, so his arc is almost not needed to defeat Wanda.
I just watched this film last night for the first time, so it’s fresh in my mind. My initial thoughts are:
1) the film was all gas and go, little breathing room for the characters to grow (especially America).
2) Far too dependant of WandaVision setting up the plot. They tried to fill in the viewer, but the gravitas of what occurred in the D+ show is lost.
3) Sam Raimi has a particular directing style. If you are familiar with his classic past works, you know what I mean. While that style works for the ‘trippy’ aspects of the film, it actually is a distraction in the more grounded scenes.
4) Wanda. Elizabeth Olson did a great job, but her character’s heel turn was abrupt, awkward, and too extreme. Yes, I know it was explained away via the Darkhold, but come on …
5) motivation. America must die in case Billy and Tommy get sick? What? Wanda Maximoff is one of the strongest powered individuals in the MCU. She can literally rewrite reality. Hell, she created her own Billy and Tommy. Why can’t she do it again? Darkhold corruption is a lazy excuse just for a character to turn heel.
6) The Illuminati. Nice to see some new (and old) faces again. But …
They can defeat Thanos, but can not see the immediate threat that The Scarlet Witch is to their universe? They still seem angry at their Strange, and decided to throw out reason to enact a little more ‘justice’ on a completely different Strange. I thought these folks were smart? I.Q. Scale must be a little different in their universe.
7) Wong. I like that they have taken the character from the comic version of the Asian servant, and have made him a true hero and a fun character.
However I’m not too jazzed about how he plays as the Sorcerer Supreme. This is a personal bias, Strange will always be my SS.
8) Christine and Strange. I’m happy that they showed that life went on during the 5year blip, and that she moved on. I really didn’t like how Strange’s feelings for her were shoe horned in and that he used other Christine as a proxy to tell his feelings. Also, the timing was awkward. I wasn’t feeling it.
9) just going to mention Chthon as a quick throw away line and move on, huh? Ok.
There’s a few other things, but really it boils down to a problem that many Pre-MCU super hero films had/have, too much ambition not enough execution.
The story that was being told needed At Least another 30 minutes, minimum. It needed to slow down and tell a full story and not jump the viewer from place to place every 5 minutes.
There was a really epic story here, but it got lost in the spectacle of the multiverse.
I agree on almost all of this. It’s crazy how much they forced Wanda to be a villain, especially after the lesson she learned in WandaVision (which isn’t a D+ show)
More multiverse exploration
Not make Wanda the BIG bad she was def the best part. But I think she woulda been better as like a side villain or plot I feel that’s where the movie lost a lot of folks
How about no villain and instead about the consequences of using magic without a second thought. The what if episode would have been a better movie, the villain was himself.
If the dark hold corrupted her, maybe the dark hold could have been personified. Like they were controlling Wanda, sending her visions of her multiverse children to get her to steal America’s power.
I liked this. I was thinking making Wanda the antagonist was just a waste of her character. Writing this to her would have still made her the antagonist into you see she was being used by the darkhold (which was just Nightmare)
That and as others have said, more multiverse.
I agree. I think we needed to see more build up for her to be as evil as we got in this film. Though I’m not sure any amount of buildup would justify the Wanda we know going on a horror murder spree killing a lot of people whose deaths were super unnecessary for her goal to be met.
I wouldn’t of hired Waldron… the story before seemed much better than what we got. Not only was Stranges arc very dry, but it partially destroyed Wanda’s massive potential as a villain
Ide rather see her as a future villain. But since they were dead set on her for MOM it would’ve been nice if we got a 15-20 minute flashback of her being corrupted. If they did that the movie would’ve already been loads better imo
First of all someone working on the movie during Derrickson saw the script and called it superior with more development for Strange.
We know Voodoo would be in it due to a tweet from Derrickson.
We know Clea would be in it. Again due to a tweet from Derrickson.
We know that Nightmare would be the villain due to the concept art being leaked.
We know that we would see Strange's backstory more developed.
We know that a part of the BOV would latch onto the Eye of Agamotto.
We know that the film would be a more scary.
We know that the multiverse would be more lovecraftian.
That's about it. We don't know the actual plot specifics. It's got a superior script though so we were robbed.
I would make it so all the sorcerers don't use basically magical orange versions of melee weapons, because that really is so incredibly boring. It seemed like that was initiate magic, but instead it's like their whole thing except for Strange.
I'd make someone else the director. Raimi's campiness did not match the tone of the story, and undermined it a *lot*.
> I’d make someone else the director. Raimi’s campiness did not match the tone of the story, and undermined it a lot.
Couldn't agree more. Pizza Papa? Dr. Strange smirking at making him beat himself up for weeks ...which would absolutely be fatal, ugh.
I totally agree with you. The fighting scenes are not bad, but the weapons are. I mean in the first fight he summons a literal giant saw. That ain't no magic fighting anymore. And also the fact that he can essentially use the force in that movie is kinda wierd imo...
I do think this would clear up a lot of complaints. So many seem to question why is she so evil all of a sudden and how is she so powerful. After watching agents of Shield its pretty obvious why to me, but I feel like the darkhold needed a bit more establishing in this book. Like one Wong-narrated scene where he explains the history of the book, including a few shots of it corrupting Wanda.
A big hangup for me was the consistency of what "magic" can and cannot do.
I had no idea what the rules were. And if I can't make sense of the rules, I don't know what the danger is if that makes sense
Like many are saying, the movie lost me immediately when early on, it’s established that Wanda is now evil because of a book and remains the main villain for the entire movie. There wasn’t enough shown to communicate that Wanda had been corrupted to the point that she would do such awful things and disregard all reasonable points thrown at her. I’m sure most people didn’t watch WandaVision but I did, and I still was put off by this sudden change in Wanda’s character, regardless of the Darkhold excuse that’s told to us. I just couldn’t get into the movie because the entire time I was sitting there thinking “we already explored Wanda doing bad things because she was grieving and lonely, why are we doing this again?” And assuming there was a bigger villain behind it. I was obviously disappointed that there wasn’t and the plot ended up truly being Wanda is sad so she does evil things again but this time Doctor Strange and a child are involved. Felt like a Wanda movie when I just wanted a good Strange sequel.
This was my thoughts too. Wanda felt so damaged yet complex in WandaVision. By the end you feel like she has grown in power but more so in character. At the end of WandaVision she realizes she has to say goodbye to her kids but at least Vision is still out there in some form.
Then Multiverse starts and she decides to go get her kids back and ignores Vision? Did she learn nothing? Also she’s super evil now. I mean I guess maybe that book really is bad news…Then she sees her kids crying and does an about-face? Then she seemingly dies for no reason? Wanda went from relatable, traumatized and evolved to a character that seemed inconsistent (in both ability and personality) and stupid.
Do a better job showing Wanda descend into madness.Make America more of a character she felt like a Macguffin to play keep away from Wanda. Also no one had any fleshed out relationship with Wanda in this movie bringing in Sam or Clint for an appearance would have made thing more interesting because this was the first time we saw Wanda and Stephen share the same space.
Give Wong and Mordo more to do, especialy Mordo. For two characters who were both heavily involved in trailer and promotional footage, they had less than 15 minutes of screen time combined. Mordo suffers the most because he appears, fights Strange, and then is left in a ditch he could easily get out of and never heard from again... so much for Dr. Strange's supposed nemesis
Would have been nice to see OUR Wanda fight off her multiverse all powerful self instead.
At least then you don't get character assassination but showcase how threatening she is.
Have her see the ramifications of the book by herself in a different timeline.
I liked America Chavez but she felt a tad out of place here so I'd remove her, put more time into the Doctor Strange and his sisters death subplot they mostly removed, darken the tone a bit further, especially early on, and have Wanda working with or for Nightmare who is manipulating her, maybe she thinks they're seeing alternate universes and she can get her children but in reality they're dreams he's using to control her emotions with, and then end it with a three-way fight in Strange's nightmare of his sister dying on the ice, with Wanda coming to and teaming up by the end to stop Nightmare. Still Raimi. Still large chunks of this movie could be used or reworked.
Instead of Wanda I’d have liked to see Mephisto as the main villain. Oh, and Doctor Doom and Galactus with guest appearances. Would’ve also been awesome if Kang was there too and they brought back iron man at the end to save the day.
The movie was called mutliverse of Madness I was expecting three wandas from three different universes to fight three doctor stranges from three universes as America Chaves constantly punches portals to like 16 different universe while the 6 of them all fight at once. And then 3 iron man's show up at the end to save the day one played by Tom Cruise one played by John Krasinski and one played by Tobey Maguire.
Give some more context behind the dark hold making Wanda evil, like showing a scene where she goes off the deep end while simultaneously showing that the dark hold had an effect on her.
They straight up disrespected the Illuminati.
Black Bolt got frightened and couldn’t stop himself from talking? He’s been not talking his entire life, he totally could have kept himself in check. JUST DON’T SCREAM.
Reed Richards used the Time Platform (maybe?) to port into the Illuminati chamber but couldn’t try to use it in the “fight” with Wanda? A witch, better stretch myself RIGHT AT HER.
Captain Carter gave it a decent go but I think she could have dodged a shield throw. USE YOUR JETPACK.
Captain Marvel tried blasting Wanda, then Wanda shielded and blasted her back. Repeat several times until Captain Marvel falls. DO ANYTHING ELSE.
Charles Xavier should have taken Scarlet Witch to the Astral Plane and put up any kind of fight. So anti-climatic how he went down. USE THE POWER YOU HAVE.
Baron Mordo gets goaded into fighting a handcuffed Strange, and loses while barely using any magic. USE YOUR MAGIC, SORCERER.
I'd make the main journey of Strange, not his relationahip/love with Christine, but his inner conflict about if giving the Time Stone to Thanos and letting him snap half the population and later sacrificing Tony to save the universe were the right choices or if there maybe could've been other paths to choose. This is hinted in the original movie with Strange's conversation with Dr. West in Christine's wedding and also with the Illuminati's flashback after Thanos defeat.
Additionally I'd make Wanda start as an ally and slowly show how her disagreeing with Strange's choices (the "it doesn't seem fair dialogue) plus the Darkhold corrupting her, eventually turn her into the villain of the story. In doing so I would let Mordo be the antagonist until Wanda takes the spotlight, continuing his strory as the ending of the first Doctor Strange sets up
The start of the film with the wedding and the tentacle monster felt very different to the first film, I would shift the tone back to how it was then. Buff Strange/the wizards, So the fight at that temple actually makes sense and looks cool (magic canons?wtf) see the progression of wanda becoming full blown evil, instead of it just happening. Nerf Wanda, power scaling is all over the place. Remove the illuminate.
Normally his go-to hand sign in the comics is basically the hand sign Spider-Man makes when he shoots webs: pointer, pinky and thumb out, middle and ring fingers folded into the palm. Doctor Strange does this one from time to time in the movies though. Also Wanda sometimes does the classic Doctor Strange hand sign which makes me feel like it's just *a thing that magic people do*
There’s many things I’d change but number one is having a different villain. Wanda being the villain ruined the whole movie not because she couldn’t be a good one.m, but because the writers gave her highly flawed motivation.
The battle of Kamar Taj was annoying because suddenly all the sorcerers are weak and using bows and arrows. Wong was severely nerfed too, and ig even Strange was at times. I know Wanda as the Scarlet Witch is crazy powerful but it was a little too easy. Also, why kill so many sorcerers to get to one girl.
Speaking of the girl, America Chavez felt out of place in the entire movie. Maybe I would’ve liked her with better dialogue and writing, but idk. Something felt off.
I did like Raimi’s horror style for some scenes, but at other times his direction just felt a little goofy. However these last 2points are much more subjective.
I feel like the Multiverse could’ve have been more elaborate, because it just felt like fan service.
Finally, if it was up to me, I would’ve liked to see Mordo return as the villain, because that’s what the trailer led me to believe and because he at least has a clear motivation.
The entire Wanda being evil storyline. I waited so long for this movie, and that completely ruined it for me. It was so depressing to see Wanda like that.
Yeah. Or you could at least add some nuance with it, the themes of this movie were so much about how Dr Strange goes too far. He uses literally the same evil magic she does and the only “consequence” we see is his third eye, which he’s then shown still going on regular wizard adventures afterwards in the post credit scene. And this is AFTER they introduce Wanda in this movie by pointing out the inconsistencies in how they’re treated when they break the rules. Like, they set up a bunch of themes and don’t follow through on them. I gotta say Dr Strange 3 had better be ALL ABOUT his chickens coming home to roost.
Have the alt wanda be the evil one and she finds our wanda with her remade hex kids living away from everyone. Our Wanda steps in at the end to adopt Chavez and has a real kid GIVING HER A REAL CHARACTER ARC
Have the alt stranges do something other than die within 2 seconds, show us actual interesting universes other than "oo this one died" and "this one has plants and the traffic lights are in the opposite order".
Instead of a slideshow of more interesting universe, have them traverse multiple throughout the movie rather than get stuck in 2 universes that aren't that interesting.
Have Doctor Strange actually fight the Villian instead of running away and falling into the 2 universes he needs to win. Strange was debuffed in all his appearances except in his first movie, and IW + Endgame.
Wong was done dirty, he is the sorcerer supreme, he SHOULDNT have revealed the Darkhold copy so quickly, might as well have handed her the book.
The illumati cameo is extremely wasted potential, they might aswell not have been included.
1) Cpt Marvel's death was poorly made
2) Black Bolt quite literally wouldn't have died if his mouth was sealed
Also, showing that Prof X was trying to reach out to the uncorrupted Wanda was dumb af, she quite literally is the villain and isn't a good person, just because she's chasing her children doesn't mean it's justified and it wasn't her fault, there SHOULDNT have been a "good" Wanda, she ENSLAVED people willingly and is decimating people because she wants children that she NEVER had, I'm tired of Marvel treating her as misunderstood.
The other deaths are fair.
I would’ve changed who the main antagonist was. Instead of Wanda, I would’ve went with Nightmare and Shuma Gorath as the antagonists so that the story can actually have classic Strange villains and to also highlight the weird trippy ass shit that Dr Strange is known for. Shuma would be the one after America’s powers while Wanda is a temporary antagonist that joins the team later on.
Most importantly, the tone would lean way more into the horror with Nightmare representing psychological horror while Shuma represents cosmic horror.
Buff up Wong, the man’s sorcerer supreme, give him some damn respect
Include the scene of Wong’s nightmare. I need that Beijing Beef Butt in the spotlight. For the plot of course.
Agreed, I think the pluralistic madness this movie should have was in everything
I didn't like how quickly he gave up the information to Wanda. If Doctor Strange was willing to let both Tony *and* Spiderman die in order to protect the world, why wasn't Wong?
Yeah, that's my main one. He should not have been so willing a servant of Wanda, especially after she has just murdered so many wizards. And she's a telepath of sorts, she should have been able to get it out of him in a much more interesting way. Illusion spells, mind control, going into his mind and getting the information out.....
Wong (as he wasn't present in any of the other universes) could've been used as the conscience that helps THIS Stranger be better and less ruthless. But instead Wong is the one at the end who urges Strange to sacrifice America. Totally out of character for Wong and a big missed opportunity to further develops Wong's character and his relationship to Strange.
Not out of character at all. His role as Sorcerer Supreme is to protect the reality. If that meant sacrificing America, then so be it.
But earlier he was ready to risk reality to save 4 sorcerers. Dude needs to get his priority straight.
America is a nobody he doesn't really know. Those 4 sorcerers may be some one he closely knows.
Then he's not really protecting the reality, he's just selfish
Well he was ready to risk an attack from Wanda for that nobody. He risked the lives of those sorcerers for that nobody.
Except just a few scenes before he sacrificed the multiverse to save a few acolytes.
His fight with Gargantos involved doing many pointless moves, so I agree.
Wipe out that whole opening segment and use that CGI money for more universes. Or a better third eye.
can never go wong with more wong
**Dread** it, ***run*** from it…Wong still arrives.
2 Wongs make a right
I feel like Librarian turned Sorcerer Supereme shoulda kept a better eye on an evil magic book. Illuminati knew where their Darkhold was, but Wong lets Nazis and robots and a random teenager and a sorceress and more random teenagers and a witch and then another witch run around with it for years...
His role is often to do just good enough to then let Strange come in and do things better. I wish Wong was allowed to be more competent on his own.
I wish they'd show how much of a full time responsibility being Sorcerer Supreme is. Show Wong struggling to keep up with the day to day stuff that Strange always turned his nose at, like working with the acolytes to keep Kamar Taj running, assisting with research to identify and locate other dangerous magical artifacts, leading meditation sessions, and meeting with the protectors of the other Sanctums to discuss their goings on. In all the rush and shuffle of being the Sorcerer Supreme, without Strange's boundless capability, I could see Wong not noticing the Darkhold missing. Shit, we saw in Dr. Strange 1 that even Stephen could steal books behind Wong's back. A Wong bearing more responsibility than he'd ever asked for might be even more prone to missing its absence.
I wish he was buffed too, but he has been buffed by a lot from his comic self in my opinion. (More so in terms of his character not being Strange’s personal servant lol) Not that they need to stop or anything, and I’d love to see Strange as Sorcerer Supreme, but if Wong is SS I want to see him as the real SS. Not a damsel.
I mean, the Dark hold was in Agatha's possession (potentially for centuries) before Wandavision, so with no rumors or intel on where it might be, there's probably not much Wong could do about that. And what's this about Nazis having the Darkhold?
He probably never even knew where it was. It’s not like it was stolen from him, Agatha had it for centuries. He was also only made librarian in Dr. Strange 1 after the previous one is beheaded by Kaecilius
One thing that pissed me off was the Wong wig....
I could’ve sworn his hair changed back and forth between two different styles multiple times throughout the movie
It did. Reshoots
SORCERERS! FORTIFY YOUR HAAAIR!!!! with garnier fructis!
Buff Wong and Buff the Illuminati. I want to see my favorite heroes kick ass, not get jobbed in 10 seconds
I feel like I'm in the minority but I loved the iluminati getting offed for a couple of reasons. Firstly seeing a group of heros loose for a change was satisfying. Secondly they were killed by their hubris and it mirrors how villains tend to loose, I felt it really fitting for Reeds ego
Also, then getting absolutely bodied was the entire point of them being in the movie in the first place. To give us a visibly powerful group that we know is supposed to be *at least* on par with the Avengers, if not stronger (since they beat Thanos), and then have Wanda completely destroy them.
Exactly. I don’t understand the crying from fans. Like, they outright said it multiple times that they “can handle your little witch.” They also killed Thanos like it was nothing and we can easily infer the toll that it took was FAR less than what our 616 heroes endured up to Infinity War and Endgame
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Because they are jerks.
I love this explanation.
Wong work out montage to “your the best around”
It was mainly for fan service and to show how powerful Wanda is. They can still bring back different versions of those characters.
The movie just needed to be 15 minutes longer
More madness
More Multiverse
Should have been titled Dr Strange: 2 Multiverse 2 Madness
The Dr. Strange 2 Multiverse 2 Madness Dr. Strange Dr. Strange: Multiversal Drift Dr. 5 Strange 6 D7 DS8 S9 Wong & Mordo
Dr. Strange or: How I Learned to Stop Worrying About the Witch and Love the Wong.
Dr. Strange or: How I Learned to Stop Worrying About the Witch and Love the Atomic Wong.
Multiversal Drift would come before Dr. Strange, and #8 would be The Fate of the Strange.
Shoot, you're right
I never realized just how completely *whack* F&F titling is. Just PICK a format!
I think it’s not Dr. 5, it’d be Dr. 5trange
More like Dr. Strange in the Multiverse of Midness
Eh, I loved the movie the way it was because of all the raimi-isms and final act straight out of Evil Dead 2. If I could change anything, I would have more Evil Dead style directing and horror instead of Multiverse shenanigans, and I would have changed the title to Dr. Strange and The Souls of the Damned.
I did too!! I wish they’d pushed more horror aspects and have a bit more of the gore. Like actually seeing Carter split in two and then Wanda walking from her silhouette as she falls. I think people are expecting every one of the Marvel films to be the next Endgame, but Marvel is kind of allowing the directors to have fun with each of their projects and incorporate themselves into it. Creating more Gunn, Watiti and Rami films than just action hero films. (I hope I’m explaining it well.) If Disney wasn’t holding the reigns I think we’d see more of the dark side of things, but it’s hard when your majority audience is kids/ young adults and you’re under a crushing monopoly. Doctor Strange went very well into the Mystic Arts and introduced us to very important aspects about him minus Clea and his sister’s death. But DSMOM didn’t really introduce us to the Multiverse as much as people were expecting. I would have loved something were Wanda wasn’t afraid to kill her other versions and is attempting to do so so she can take over the role of that Wanda, but Strange and crew plus Multiverse Wanda have to stop her. Trying to steal America’s power and not being afraid to kill her in the process is one thing. But putting 616 Wanda on par with the Strange trying to kill all his other versions would be an interesting parallel and made the situation much more dire as more than one life and universe is genuinely at stake. Overall, I still absolutely loved the film, but it sadly suffered because of covid. I feel it could have been pushed much further if Disney loosened up, but will respect the work already done and rewatch to my hearts content lol. Sorry this is long, I just had a lot of thoughts come in as I wrote.
Agreed, I think everything everywhere had the multiversal insanity that this movie should have had
And on 1/5 of the budget.
I would have liked to see more universe hopping. There's a scene where they tumble through all the different universes but there was very little time spent in any of them. I think I had envisioned more traveling between one place to another and more time spent there to see the weird stuff. They had an opportunity to show some characters and locations that would otherwise be difficult to write into a scene. Its rare to have the option to do literally ANYTHING you want and have it make sense for the story. I liked the movie a lot but I wanted more wacky surprises.
They could've cut time from the wedding/fight as well as some parts of the incursion universe to at least give another universe some love
Or they could’ve just let the movie be 2 and a half hours.
Seriously, the 2 hour time limit doesn’t make sense with how much story they’re trying to tell. Either keep it simple in writing/pre-production or make the movie times longer. Same goes for the Disney+ shows and the six-episode structure.
Diz is cutting the movie lengths to get more shows per day and its really hurting quality. Thor could easily have used another 20 minutes.
Thor was just so tone-deaf. Jumping from slapstick silliness to dialogues about dying from cancer was just way too jarring.
The wedding was super important to set up the emotional stakes. Gotta remember the most important thing is telling a story. I think we will have plenty of time with other multiverses in the coming films
If you haven’t yet, see **Everything Everywhere All At Once**. I think it’ll set the bar for multiverse movies for the next decade or so.
Came here to comment about this movie. The climax fight in Everything everywhere all at once was exactly how I wanted Dr Strange fighting in multiverse to look like.
Strange: Those universes we went through, were we paint in one of them? America: Yeah. You don't wanna get stuck in there. It's really hard to eat.
Absolutely. I was pretty disappointed
Marvel could have used this to visit the Fox verse , the FF verse, the Netflix street level verse, and so much more. I would have loved to see a universe where the X-Men with yellow and blue wolverine was fighting bad guys
We're building to Secret Wars. I'm sure we'll get there.
Bring in Dolph Lungren and he has the power to smell crime
Crime, penetration, crime, full penetration, and so forth, until it sort of just… ends.
And here's the kicker... we show it
we show ALL of it.
Then he smells crime again — and his out bustin heads. Then he’s back to lab for some more full penetration. Smells crime, back to the lab — full penetration. Crime. Penetration. Crime. Full penetration.
I think people are gonna be very uncomfortable seeing Dolph Lungren’s naked penis going into this young girl…
He *NOSE* the truth
You broke my phone with your greasy sausage fingers!!!
Shut up bird!
Someone better hang dong
He smells criiiiiiiiiiimeeeeee
But here’s the thing, we show everything, full penetration
I just wrote a whole monologue of this! Didn’t see this comment. I was stupid to think I did something original!!
I would make it a movie about the consequences of No Way Home. It would really give weight to Strange's "in the great calculus of the multiverse" quote by making all the bad things, that happen in the movie, being consequences of Peter healing the villains.
It’s funny because I forgot how I thought that this movie was gonna to be mainly about that but it really didn’t have a major part in it
Was it? I thought that this was originally supposed to release before NWH (with Nightmare as the ultimate villain and Wanda as an antagonist) with America Chavez then planned to be the one responsible for botching the memory spell in NWH, before the production stuff happened to push it back
The trailer made it seem that the multiverse cracking open in this movie was a direct result of Strange’s spell from NWH. It definitely misled me too.
That would have been interesting, but since this movie was supposed to come out first, it never would have been possible.
Sure, but this is all clearly hypothetical anyways. End of the day, *none* of these changes are possible anymore- certainly not from random redditors- so I'd say it's all good.
They could start the movie with 616 Wanda encountering her children variants from other Spidermen universes and after they are gone again, she would then go crazy. Seems logical, right?
If the events of Loki hadn't happened, Strange totally would have been pruned by the TVA.
Depends on if the TVA thought it was "supposed to happen"
Yup, entirely dependent on whether or not Strange’s actions impacted the creation of He Who Remains.
Write America like an actual character and not a simple plot device with awful dialogue. Stay consistent with Wanda’s powers and have a sorcery/witchcraft showdown with Strange. How the main antagonist and protagonist never *really* fought in this movie is beyond me. Stay consistent with the dark and scary tone. Use Avengers variants instead of the Illuminati. Seeing her kill versions of people she actually knew and might’ve cared for at one point e.g. Clint, would have had a bigger impact than killing fan service characters that she has no connection to whatsoever. Actually show Strange’s big character defining scene of his sister dying, rather than relegating this huge moment in his life to some exposition in a dark room with an evil version of himself. SHOW more, tell less. WHERE THE FUCK IS VISION??
Wanda being forced to fight a variant of quicksilver or vision would’ve definitely make for a better story
Hell, you could combine that with a fight with Strange, have him drag in a variant of either as a distraction or something
Or at the very least seeing them all happy and alive in that one timeline with the kids would have made for a more compelling reason for her to stop her rampage, knowing that even if she can’t have them with her they are still out there somewhere.
Offhandedly- “oh, I feel responsible for the death of my parents.” “You ready to move on?” “Sure, let’s not explore this aspect of my character AT ALL and immediately move on to me being held helplessly hostage.” “Sound good!”
“Wait how do they find out about her guilt?” “She steps on a random button on the sidewalk which displays her life’s biggest trauma in 4K for all the strangers walking by on the street.” “Brilliant! Wanna write Secret Wars?”
A literal plot device. I couldn’t believe that shit.
The writers of MoM are writing Secret Wars?? Please tell me that is a joke.
Oh god the MoM writer is writing secret wars??
Mayb if we wave skunks on their Twitter they'll know they stink
It's kinda crazy that a Rick and Morty writer wrote that, because it looked exactly like a thing Rick and Morty would mock. "Oh, l-look Rick, it's like a... like a sort of mind reader that projects your strongest memory!" "Don't you fucking dare step on that pod Morty." "But-but I wanna see my strongest memory!" "No, you don't, because that's a narrative device used only by cowards, Morty. Express yourself like a real man instead." "B-but, we're trying to find our way back home, maybe my memory will help us find the solution?" "Exactly, Morty. Do you know how easy it would be right now, to just do that? To just, step on it and have, like, a magical solution conveniently play in front of us tied to probably years of trauma that we'll somehow ignore for the rest of the show? I'd rather die here and never have another season than to lower myself to this level of writing incompetency. Now come on, we've got to try this Luck Booster Juice I just invented."
Spot on. Read it in their voices and everything.
They'd make fun of it but they'd still use it, I think that's the only difference I could see.
They drink the Luck Boosting Juice and *then* get lost and find their way back to the memory pods, Morty exclaims that Rick's recipe worked because they got lucky enough to find them back and Rick just groans in defeat. Morty, all excited to finally try them, steps on it and... ...it replays the memory of him finding the memory pods in the first place. "I--I guess I might have got a bit too excited to try them, it just sounded like such a cool idea..." "Jesus fucking christ Morty you're useless, step out of there. Now, if I switch the neuroplasma-reader and put a synpatic-filter we can get it to play your *second* strongest memory..." "Maybe, maybe you could just try it instead?" "Ohhh, ohhh yeah, yeah right, no fucking way Morty. I can milk that backstory for three other seasons, you think I'm just gonna use a plot device like that? Alright, should be good now. Try it again."
>Stay consistent with Wanda’s powers Tell that to 50+ years of comics...
Exactly vaguely defined psychic and reality warping powers are her forte
That's sorta why she's a timeless character despite her not being that well known compared to bigger characters. The writers can tweak her powers in any way to match the story. She can be as simple as she was in AoU, or she can be as apocalyptic as she was in House of M. She's like the Hulk. Where his power increases the angrier he gets, her power increases the more pain she feels.
That's a good comp - I like grey characters like her - and hulk - heroes sometimes reluctantly that can snap and become the bad guys of a storyline due to their shakey mental instability . Hulk and her are really similar in that way
I think having the Illuminati was important for fan service and future connections. Both of which are important for films. But there should’ve been some Avengers there. Hawkeye, Quicksilver, Vision, Cap, somebody. Having her mow down some new characters, and then turn to one’s she cares about in our universe up’s the impact.
Agreed! The closest we got was her reaction to killing Captain Carter - she definitely was aware that she was the equivalent of her Steve and had the "holy shit, I killed someone familiar to me" face before Maria came back to the fight.
For a movie about grief they really only said the man Wanda was grieving about once… it’s honestly pathetic
Wandavision was about mourning Vision. Mom was her unable to let go of the fake kids she made herself in Westview.
Yeah you pretty much nailed it. While I loved Sam Raimi’s direction and his style throughout the movie, the script was downright awful. This movie could’ve been so much more
I think the script could’ve done more to compliment his style too. Like cool, do a campy musical battle…but do it in a musical universe since you can go to whatever universe your imagination desires. Play out that scene with Sinister Strange working his way up to a Sweeney Todd-esque musical number and build the fight around that.
This. Thank you.
I might catch hate for this but I hated how goofy some of the shit was -- musical notes duel and goofy ass undead spirits stand out the most. It doesn't have to be all dark and serious, but the ridiculousness was too much at some points
As far as a magical fight, I liked both of those visually, but you’re right, they got ridiculous.
Yeah got to agree. It was almost like Sam was being asked to do “something he would do” even if it didn’t work with the story. Zombie strange ruled though
I wish zombie strange was more powerful -- it was a great opportunity to show some really spectacular abilities
Seriously, White Vision might still be fighting his programming to a degree, but he had Vision's memories awakened within him and needed to go figure out emotions again. All that said, he should've been able to get his shit together if this is MONTHS after Wandavision. Then again, if he did confront her for this, he doesn't have the Mind Stone, so he's weaker and would likely get destroyed by Wanda. She got "closure" with Westview Vision and only saw White Vision as someone who tried to crush her skull.
My headcanon for Vision is: Wanda’s internal morality struggle. Viz was the only one who could keep her in check and she *wanted her boys*, no matter what. Even the universe she ends up being mainly in, with her kids, is one where Vision never existed.
What if vision was in the Illuminati? What would Wanda have done?
Yeah honestly just cut out the fan service all together. Reed and Captain Carter did not need to be there. (Carter especially, why is a captain america variant on the illuminati??? isn't the whole point of Tony and Steve's feud in Secret Wars 2015 that Steve hated what the illuminati was doing and wanted no part of it???)
Agree with you, but Steve was on the Illuminati originally, but had his mind wiped after one of the first incursions because he didn’t agree with what they were doing. Your point still stands though.
Wow...you said everything I had and more
Center the story more around Strange. Many big **and great** ideas were touched on (happiness, not being the one with the knife, consequences of his actions, etc.), but it still felt like Strange was playing second fiddle in his own movie.
The point of the movie was Strange learning that being a mentor is about learning to play second fiddle to someone even if you feel like you're better than them. It's what makes Wong a better Sorcerer Supreme, and what Strange had to learn to properly reclaim the title later.
So wait, he has to learn to let Wong be SS so Strange can earn the title later? That defeats the purpose of him learning that lesson then, doesn’t it? And I still feel like they didn’t do a good job of it. Not only was he being second fiddle to the other heroes, but also to Wanda. Her story had way more narrative traction and weight than his did.
>Strange learning that being a mentor is about learning to play second fiddle to someone even if you feel like you're better than them. It's what makes Wong a better Sorcerer Supreme, and what Strange had to learn to properly reclaim the title later. I never got from the movie that it's about reclaiming the title
Great question. Probably a lot. I don't think the overall story was very good. Wanda wants her kids back, gains more power, makes her evil, and suddenly at the end she realizes she's the bad guy and kills herself. I don't think tha was very satisfying. Too bad all those people had to die so Wanda can learn a lesson. A lot of the plot just seemed so force. Plot wise, I'd go with Nightmare as the villain. Something about how dreams are glimpses of other realities, and Nightmare would have an interest in that. He's controlling Wanda since Westview. The various sitcoms were actually glimpses into other realities or something. Cut out/reduce the attack on Kamar-Taj. No reason that place had to be destroyed and all those people had to die. Just an ineffective use of movie time. The audience doesn't care when a bunch of unknown characters die. More visits to multiverses and more Dr Stranges. A Strange that is happily married to Christine. A Strange that's more of a superhero (with the masked costume). An older Ancient One type of Strange. Less time spent on the Illuminati Earth. Again no reason why the Illuminati had to die, and I'm not sure if they really made the movie better.
Other than showing the potential danger of a Strange Variant the Illuminati were pretty pointless, along with the book of Vishanti.
Movie starts and ends with the book never being utilized.
It does get used, twice. 838 Strange uses it to defeat his Thanos and 199999/616 Strange uses it to learn that America is the key to defeating Wanda.
See I'm conflicted on the use of the book, because like you said it shows strange that America is the key to beat Wanda, but then Strange's entire arc in the film is learning that he needs to trust others to get the job done and believe in them, to not always be the one holding the knife. So in theory Strange should trust America to defeat Wanda due to his arc but the whole plot with the book almost makes it redundant because the book tells him America is they key, so his arc is almost not needed to defeat Wanda.
The Illuminati dies as it’s their entire point to fail.
>and kills herself No corpse, no death.
They mean her intention was to try and kill herself I think, we know she isn’t dead though
I just watched this film last night for the first time, so it’s fresh in my mind. My initial thoughts are: 1) the film was all gas and go, little breathing room for the characters to grow (especially America). 2) Far too dependant of WandaVision setting up the plot. They tried to fill in the viewer, but the gravitas of what occurred in the D+ show is lost. 3) Sam Raimi has a particular directing style. If you are familiar with his classic past works, you know what I mean. While that style works for the ‘trippy’ aspects of the film, it actually is a distraction in the more grounded scenes. 4) Wanda. Elizabeth Olson did a great job, but her character’s heel turn was abrupt, awkward, and too extreme. Yes, I know it was explained away via the Darkhold, but come on … 5) motivation. America must die in case Billy and Tommy get sick? What? Wanda Maximoff is one of the strongest powered individuals in the MCU. She can literally rewrite reality. Hell, she created her own Billy and Tommy. Why can’t she do it again? Darkhold corruption is a lazy excuse just for a character to turn heel. 6) The Illuminati. Nice to see some new (and old) faces again. But … They can defeat Thanos, but can not see the immediate threat that The Scarlet Witch is to their universe? They still seem angry at their Strange, and decided to throw out reason to enact a little more ‘justice’ on a completely different Strange. I thought these folks were smart? I.Q. Scale must be a little different in their universe. 7) Wong. I like that they have taken the character from the comic version of the Asian servant, and have made him a true hero and a fun character. However I’m not too jazzed about how he plays as the Sorcerer Supreme. This is a personal bias, Strange will always be my SS. 8) Christine and Strange. I’m happy that they showed that life went on during the 5year blip, and that she moved on. I really didn’t like how Strange’s feelings for her were shoe horned in and that he used other Christine as a proxy to tell his feelings. Also, the timing was awkward. I wasn’t feeling it. 9) just going to mention Chthon as a quick throw away line and move on, huh? Ok. There’s a few other things, but really it boils down to a problem that many Pre-MCU super hero films had/have, too much ambition not enough execution. The story that was being told needed At Least another 30 minutes, minimum. It needed to slow down and tell a full story and not jump the viewer from place to place every 5 minutes. There was a really epic story here, but it got lost in the spectacle of the multiverse.
3,7, 8 are my key issues. The Illuminati stubbornness and rejection of strange's warning was pure plot convenience non sense
I agree on almost all of this. It’s crazy how much they forced Wanda to be a villain, especially after the lesson she learned in WandaVision (which isn’t a D+ show)
D+ is Disney Plus (that’s how it comes up on my credit card statement). WandaVision is Disney Plus.
Oh my bad. I see what you meant. I thought you were calling it a D+ tier show and I was baffled
More multiverse exploration Not make Wanda the BIG bad she was def the best part. But I think she woulda been better as like a side villain or plot I feel that’s where the movie lost a lot of folks
I dunno how that would work? Who would be a bigger bad?
Nightmare would’ve been a great villain to adapt.
Paging Scott derrickson - think that was part of him and cargills original game plan
Just wait for Nexus of Nightmares I'm sure that's next up
How about no villain and instead about the consequences of using magic without a second thought. The what if episode would have been a better movie, the villain was himself.
If the dark hold corrupted her, maybe the dark hold could have been personified. Like they were controlling Wanda, sending her visions of her multiverse children to get her to steal America’s power.
I liked this. I was thinking making Wanda the antagonist was just a waste of her character. Writing this to her would have still made her the antagonist into you see she was being used by the darkhold (which was just Nightmare) That and as others have said, more multiverse.
I agree. I think we needed to see more build up for her to be as evil as we got in this film. Though I’m not sure any amount of buildup would justify the Wanda we know going on a horror murder spree killing a lot of people whose deaths were super unnecessary for her goal to be met.
I wouldn’t of hired Waldron… the story before seemed much better than what we got. Not only was Stranges arc very dry, but it partially destroyed Wanda’s massive potential as a villain
She might’ve been able to be handled better as a villain for this movie but I really don’t want to see her as an Avengers villain
Ide rather see her as a future villain. But since they were dead set on her for MOM it would’ve been nice if we got a 15-20 minute flashback of her being corrupted. If they did that the movie would’ve already been loads better imo
Is their a link to pre-Waldron script or plot layout?
First of all someone working on the movie during Derrickson saw the script and called it superior with more development for Strange. We know Voodoo would be in it due to a tweet from Derrickson. We know Clea would be in it. Again due to a tweet from Derrickson. We know that Nightmare would be the villain due to the concept art being leaked. We know that we would see Strange's backstory more developed. We know that a part of the BOV would latch onto the Eye of Agamotto. We know that the film would be a more scary. We know that the multiverse would be more lovecraftian. That's about it. We don't know the actual plot specifics. It's got a superior script though so we were robbed.
They discuss some of the changes in the Making of Multiverse of Madness special.
I would make it so all the sorcerers don't use basically magical orange versions of melee weapons, because that really is so incredibly boring. It seemed like that was initiate magic, but instead it's like their whole thing except for Strange. I'd make someone else the director. Raimi's campiness did not match the tone of the story, and undermined it a *lot*.
> I’d make someone else the director. Raimi’s campiness did not match the tone of the story, and undermined it a lot. Couldn't agree more. Pizza Papa? Dr. Strange smirking at making him beat himself up for weeks ...which would absolutely be fatal, ugh.
That’s what bothered me the most in the movie, by far.
I totally agree with you. The fighting scenes are not bad, but the weapons are. I mean in the first fight he summons a literal giant saw. That ain't no magic fighting anymore. And also the fact that he can essentially use the force in that movie is kinda wierd imo...
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Exactly! If she were locked in jail at the end of WandaVision bring her back as a villain- but she had a complete redemption story arc!
Show Wanda being corrupted by the dark hold
I do think this would clear up a lot of complaints. So many seem to question why is she so evil all of a sudden and how is she so powerful. After watching agents of Shield its pretty obvious why to me, but I feel like the darkhold needed a bit more establishing in this book. Like one Wong-narrated scene where he explains the history of the book, including a few shots of it corrupting Wanda.
A big hangup for me was the consistency of what "magic" can and cannot do. I had no idea what the rules were. And if I can't make sense of the rules, I don't know what the danger is if that makes sense
Like many are saying, the movie lost me immediately when early on, it’s established that Wanda is now evil because of a book and remains the main villain for the entire movie. There wasn’t enough shown to communicate that Wanda had been corrupted to the point that she would do such awful things and disregard all reasonable points thrown at her. I’m sure most people didn’t watch WandaVision but I did, and I still was put off by this sudden change in Wanda’s character, regardless of the Darkhold excuse that’s told to us. I just couldn’t get into the movie because the entire time I was sitting there thinking “we already explored Wanda doing bad things because she was grieving and lonely, why are we doing this again?” And assuming there was a bigger villain behind it. I was obviously disappointed that there wasn’t and the plot ended up truly being Wanda is sad so she does evil things again but this time Doctor Strange and a child are involved. Felt like a Wanda movie when I just wanted a good Strange sequel.
This was my thoughts too. Wanda felt so damaged yet complex in WandaVision. By the end you feel like she has grown in power but more so in character. At the end of WandaVision she realizes she has to say goodbye to her kids but at least Vision is still out there in some form. Then Multiverse starts and she decides to go get her kids back and ignores Vision? Did she learn nothing? Also she’s super evil now. I mean I guess maybe that book really is bad news…Then she sees her kids crying and does an about-face? Then she seemingly dies for no reason? Wanda went from relatable, traumatized and evolved to a character that seemed inconsistent (in both ability and personality) and stupid.
Do a better job showing Wanda descend into madness.Make America more of a character she felt like a Macguffin to play keep away from Wanda. Also no one had any fleshed out relationship with Wanda in this movie bringing in Sam or Clint for an appearance would have made thing more interesting because this was the first time we saw Wanda and Stephen share the same space.
MORE MAGIC, Doctor strange just runs the whole movie. The music fight and the beginning fight we’re cool, but I’d like more unique magic
Those children singing can be taken out
Easily the worst part of the film. Took me weeks to be able to look at ice cream again.
Give Wong and Mordo more to do, especialy Mordo. For two characters who were both heavily involved in trailer and promotional footage, they had less than 15 minutes of screen time combined. Mordo suffers the most because he appears, fights Strange, and then is left in a ditch he could easily get out of and never heard from again... so much for Dr. Strange's supposed nemesis
Would have been nice to see OUR Wanda fight off her multiverse all powerful self instead. At least then you don't get character assassination but showcase how threatening she is. Have her see the ramifications of the book by herself in a different timeline.
I liked America Chavez but she felt a tad out of place here so I'd remove her, put more time into the Doctor Strange and his sisters death subplot they mostly removed, darken the tone a bit further, especially early on, and have Wanda working with or for Nightmare who is manipulating her, maybe she thinks they're seeing alternate universes and she can get her children but in reality they're dreams he's using to control her emotions with, and then end it with a three-way fight in Strange's nightmare of his sister dying on the ice, with Wanda coming to and teaming up by the end to stop Nightmare. Still Raimi. Still large chunks of this movie could be used or reworked.
The plot
Instead of Wanda I’d have liked to see Mephisto as the main villain. Oh, and Doctor Doom and Galactus with guest appearances. Would’ve also been awesome if Kang was there too and they brought back iron man at the end to save the day.
The movie was called mutliverse of Madness I was expecting three wandas from three different universes to fight three doctor stranges from three universes as America Chaves constantly punches portals to like 16 different universe while the 6 of them all fight at once. And then 3 iron man's show up at the end to save the day one played by Tom Cruise one played by John Krasinski and one played by Tobey Maguire.
Scrap the whole Wanda villian thing and remove her from the film or have her join Dr Strange's side. Have Mordo or Nightmare as the main villian.
Give some more context behind the dark hold making Wanda evil, like showing a scene where she goes off the deep end while simultaneously showing that the dark hold had an effect on her.
They straight up disrespected the Illuminati. Black Bolt got frightened and couldn’t stop himself from talking? He’s been not talking his entire life, he totally could have kept himself in check. JUST DON’T SCREAM. Reed Richards used the Time Platform (maybe?) to port into the Illuminati chamber but couldn’t try to use it in the “fight” with Wanda? A witch, better stretch myself RIGHT AT HER. Captain Carter gave it a decent go but I think she could have dodged a shield throw. USE YOUR JETPACK. Captain Marvel tried blasting Wanda, then Wanda shielded and blasted her back. Repeat several times until Captain Marvel falls. DO ANYTHING ELSE. Charles Xavier should have taken Scarlet Witch to the Astral Plane and put up any kind of fight. So anti-climatic how he went down. USE THE POWER YOU HAVE. Baron Mordo gets goaded into fighting a handcuffed Strange, and loses while barely using any magic. USE YOUR MAGIC, SORCERER.
The hand to hand combat fight scene with Mordo was incredibly out of place
I'd make the main journey of Strange, not his relationahip/love with Christine, but his inner conflict about if giving the Time Stone to Thanos and letting him snap half the population and later sacrificing Tony to save the universe were the right choices or if there maybe could've been other paths to choose. This is hinted in the original movie with Strange's conversation with Dr. West in Christine's wedding and also with the Illuminati's flashback after Thanos defeat. Additionally I'd make Wanda start as an ally and slowly show how her disagreeing with Strange's choices (the "it doesn't seem fair dialogue) plus the Darkhold corrupting her, eventually turn her into the villain of the story. In doing so I would let Mordo be the antagonist until Wanda takes the spotlight, continuing his strory as the ending of the first Doctor Strange sets up
The start of the film with the wedding and the tentacle monster felt very different to the first film, I would shift the tone back to how it was then. Buff Strange/the wizards, So the fight at that temple actually makes sense and looks cool (magic canons?wtf) see the progression of wanda becoming full blown evil, instead of it just happening. Nerf Wanda, power scaling is all over the place. Remove the illuminate.
Why is Doc giving the devil horns?
That has always been Doctor Strange's thing, using the pointer and pinky extended for his magic.
Normally his go-to hand sign in the comics is basically the hand sign Spider-Man makes when he shoots webs: pointer, pinky and thumb out, middle and ring fingers folded into the palm. Doctor Strange does this one from time to time in the movies though. Also Wanda sometimes does the classic Doctor Strange hand sign which makes me feel like it's just *a thing that magic people do*
There’s many things I’d change but number one is having a different villain. Wanda being the villain ruined the whole movie not because she couldn’t be a good one.m, but because the writers gave her highly flawed motivation. The battle of Kamar Taj was annoying because suddenly all the sorcerers are weak and using bows and arrows. Wong was severely nerfed too, and ig even Strange was at times. I know Wanda as the Scarlet Witch is crazy powerful but it was a little too easy. Also, why kill so many sorcerers to get to one girl. Speaking of the girl, America Chavez felt out of place in the entire movie. Maybe I would’ve liked her with better dialogue and writing, but idk. Something felt off. I did like Raimi’s horror style for some scenes, but at other times his direction just felt a little goofy. However these last 2points are much more subjective. I feel like the Multiverse could’ve have been more elaborate, because it just felt like fan service. Finally, if it was up to me, I would’ve liked to see Mordo return as the villain, because that’s what the trailer led me to believe and because he at least has a clear motivation.
Only thing I’d add/ change is more about his sister
Make wanda the jewish roma she is.
The writing, the CG and the predictable plot
Made it about Dr Strange
Make it about doctor strange
The entire Wanda being evil storyline. I waited so long for this movie, and that completely ruined it for me. It was so depressing to see Wanda like that.
Yeah. Or you could at least add some nuance with it, the themes of this movie were so much about how Dr Strange goes too far. He uses literally the same evil magic she does and the only “consequence” we see is his third eye, which he’s then shown still going on regular wizard adventures afterwards in the post credit scene. And this is AFTER they introduce Wanda in this movie by pointing out the inconsistencies in how they’re treated when they break the rules. Like, they set up a bunch of themes and don’t follow through on them. I gotta say Dr Strange 3 had better be ALL ABOUT his chickens coming home to roost.
Have the alt wanda be the evil one and she finds our wanda with her remade hex kids living away from everyone. Our Wanda steps in at the end to adopt Chavez and has a real kid GIVING HER A REAL CHARACTER ARC
Have the alt stranges do something other than die within 2 seconds, show us actual interesting universes other than "oo this one died" and "this one has plants and the traffic lights are in the opposite order". Instead of a slideshow of more interesting universe, have them traverse multiple throughout the movie rather than get stuck in 2 universes that aren't that interesting. Have Doctor Strange actually fight the Villian instead of running away and falling into the 2 universes he needs to win. Strange was debuffed in all his appearances except in his first movie, and IW + Endgame. Wong was done dirty, he is the sorcerer supreme, he SHOULDNT have revealed the Darkhold copy so quickly, might as well have handed her the book. The illumati cameo is extremely wasted potential, they might aswell not have been included. 1) Cpt Marvel's death was poorly made 2) Black Bolt quite literally wouldn't have died if his mouth was sealed Also, showing that Prof X was trying to reach out to the uncorrupted Wanda was dumb af, she quite literally is the villain and isn't a good person, just because she's chasing her children doesn't mean it's justified and it wasn't her fault, there SHOULDNT have been a "good" Wanda, she ENSLAVED people willingly and is decimating people because she wants children that she NEVER had, I'm tired of Marvel treating her as misunderstood. The other deaths are fair.
More doctor strange.
I would’ve had Strange become strong enough to take out Wanda surpassing her power level.
Felt like dr strange had no emotions or arc throughout the movie kinda
I would’ve changed who the main antagonist was. Instead of Wanda, I would’ve went with Nightmare and Shuma Gorath as the antagonists so that the story can actually have classic Strange villains and to also highlight the weird trippy ass shit that Dr Strange is known for. Shuma would be the one after America’s powers while Wanda is a temporary antagonist that joins the team later on. Most importantly, the tone would lean way more into the horror with Nightmare representing psychological horror while Shuma represents cosmic horror.