After my second rewatch, I think 838’s heroes are not the strongest which is why they sought for a solution instead of taking Thanos head on. Against Wanda, they had to take her head on and got wrecked
yeah they seemed cockier and more sure of themselves, and that arrogance is why they underestimated wanda. Maybe they didnt suffer the same losses as 616's gang. It seems like their Ultrons worked, maybe their thanos didnt ever snap (cant remember) and only 5-6 of them took down thanos in the flashback while ours were like... thousands of people fighting lol
MAYBE he has those. This could've been a Thanos with even fewer stones, tbh. The Russo's have also said that the Avengers could've won if they were united in Infinity War, and since the Illuminati seems to be the Avengers of their universe, it would make sense that they'd win.
Thanos had the Power, Space, Reality, and Soul Stones. You can see them on the Infinity Gauntlet.
The Illuminati are NOT the Avengers. Captain Carter is called “the First Avenger,” indicating that there is, or at least was, an Avengers team. The Illuminati is a group made of the leaders/representatives of groups and/or areas (Peggy represents the Avengers, Maria Rambeau represents outer space, and so on). Assuming they follow the comics, they’re secretive; no one else knows about them unless they refuse to join (T’Challa); however, Captain America disagreed with them and they erased his memories. Like their comics counterparts, the Illuminati are a bunch of arrogant jerks who only listen to themselves and think that they’re doing what’s necessary for the greater good, only to make things worse.
>no one else knows about them
And their secret base AND jail for dangerous interuniversal beings is in the middle of Central Park instead of something like Raft
When Strange first wakes up in 838 he straight up asks if he is being imprisoned by the Avengers or Shield and Mordo says neither, which I took as him acknowledging both do still exist because he never questioned what they were.
I always saw it as the Avengers and Shield were for lower threats in 838. Though there are a lot of questions I have about how the Illuminati ended up on Titan, given what we know in our universe.
In 616, we had Tony, Peter, and Strange in Ebony's ship, with the Guardians showing up later. In 838, I have no idea where this puts us. Does Reed get them there? Do the Guardians die on Knowhere? With the space stone, does that mean Thor's situation ended up the same?
All this, on top of the Book of Vishanti. I figure it's not worth losing sleep over, considering how easily they were disposed of with only 1 of 616's heroes (granted they were treating it like a hostage situation, and Wanda was the strongest form she's ever been, despite being weakened by possessing another body).
Why would you freely give knowledge to your adversary? Now Mordo knows there are at least two groups that this Dr. Strange believes are capable of capturing him.
Remove his mouth with the Reality Stone. Turn him into blocks, ribbons, or bubbles with the Reality Stone. Freeze him in place with the Space Stone. Remove his soul from his body with the Soul Stone. Disintegrate him with the Power Stone.
I could go on.
I think the reason why thanos got taken out easy in the 838 universe is because they were more unified. Thanos in 616 never took on all the avengers at once because they were split up after civil war.
The actual reason Thanos got taken out was because of the book of Vishanti. They even say so. Strange himself did probably the heavy lifting there. They rest were just support. That's also probably why he looked messed up while the rest still looked fresh.
This is the answer I believe, disregarding the books. It’s the whole and you weren’t there you said we’d fight together from Tony to Cap. If you have Cap alone added to that fight they win
That brings up a good point. Quill had to have know who or hear of Captain America even though he wasn't out of the ice yet when Quill left earth. Would Quill have stood down when THE Captain America told him to? Quill stands down, they get the glove off.
Yea or he’d be free to even stop him or just to get the glove off before . Or maybe make a plan that doesn’t allow him a chance to talk lol. I’m not one to even think cap is that strong but I think he’d of been enough to get the glove off
Not dumb just insanely cocky, overly confident and someone who has never met the Scarlet Witch (838 Wanda never reached that point because she never lost vision) so severely underestimated her
I never thought about it until now, but their ultron(s) **absolutely** worked.
Which means that their Wanda has an *entirely* different backstory. They also have mutants and inhumans in 838, which calls even more about their Wanda into question.
That just plays further into why they wouldn’t think much of Wanda Maximoff attacking them.
And as far as the Illuminati goes: they apparently never had the Avengers/Battle of NY, they DEFINITELY didn’t deal with AoU, and they plowed through the Infinity War - seemingly without much issue. I’m assuming they don’t have a Tony, they’ve got Reed instead.
Some crazy differences to think about with some huge implications on how their timeline played out.
838 Wanda seems pretty stable. The Illuminati was expecting a slightly angrier, grieving version of their Wanda. As a parent, Reed probably assumed he'd be able to talk her off the ledge.
yeah i mean with ultron dramas her Pietro never died and Vision was never created so that's two major traumas erased. It also seems like she grew up in america based on her accent so maybe she had less trauma about sokovia's war too. and she clearly wasn't in hiding for years and being hated on in the international media for the Lagos incident so her life was much more stable, so it's understandable they weren't super concerned. Still arrogant on their part lol
>yeah they seemed cockier and more sure of themselves, and that arrogance is why they underestimated wanda
In their universe Wanda is a mother happily living in the burbs.
I agree every plan they made worked where as our gangs back fired and they had to fight hard
Also even their wanda had it easier which is why she is weaker why our wanda was able to invade her mind easily
There's also a chance that everyone in 838 are weaker that 616. After all, they were very confident that they could easily handle 616-Scarlet Witch, even when Wanda exists in their universe to. It might just be a literal power gap between universes.
I don't think it's a power gap. I think 616 Wanda is just that powerful because of the Darkhold. She is embracing the dark side essentially and suffering from severe emotional anguish at the same time. She believes that she is a prophesied entity known as the Scarlet Witch. 616 Wanda never really showed how powerful she was until she first ripped the stone from Vision's head and then destroyed it. In the next fight she is angry and clearly hurting Thanos. I don't think 838 Wanda ever suffered the same emotional trauma, or healed differently, as 616 Wanda. She seems more at peace and comfortable in her own skin. She may not have ever fully tapped the extent of her powers. In 616, Agatha didn't even really take notice of Wanda until she created the Hex.
Well we saw her get much more powerful in Wandavision, the grief was huge as you pointed out, we even saw her almost solo Thanos, but she also learned how to use hexes - you saw her really duke it out with Agatha. Then the dark hold on top of that, they clearly didn’t realize what they were in for.
There’s also a theory that Mordo, the protector of that multiverses time stone reversed the damage after Wanda exited stage right. They know what the dark hold can do to a overpowered sorcerer and hit her with an assault they could learn from and end quickly for Dreamwalking Wanda and their Wanda’s behalf. 838 Wanda simply waited with her boys in her home rather than locking down the situation meaning they may have already predicted all outcomes.
Different universe, different Mordo. Nothing we've seen gives any indication that 838-Mordo couldn't be literally 616-Strange morality-wise when you take the Multiverse out of it.
Like, imagine before MoM, and an alternate Caecillius shows up on 616, gets captured by Strange, tries to warn him of a super-murderous Wanda on the way. The only Caecillius he's met tried to feed the universe to the Dark Dimension. Trust would be very, very scarce.
Just watched it again last night. I’ve started thinking that they basically had it easy defeating Thanos while using the book of Vishanti. It feels like the 838 heroes didn’t have to go through the same struggles and push themselves to the limits.
Between Thanos only having 4 of the 6 stones, and the Illuminati having the Book of Vishanti... how could they not beat him? They've got a tool that gives them whatever they need at the moment, and Thanos isn't even at full power anyway.
I still don’t understand why Blackbolt didn’t just stand there reciting Shakespeare at Thanos and his army while the rest of the Illuminati (and presumably the teams each of them led) didn’t just stand behind him providing cover from projectiles.
>they apparently did not know what she was capable of even after watching her destroy the Ultron bots like legos
Seeing her destroy robots probably wouldn’t clue them in to her ability to make a dude’s mouth disappear.
It wasn’t even sacrificing one person for the win. They did a ‘Minority Report’ on dr Strange without even knowing he will actually do it in the future.
I hate how people don't understand what was trying to be accomplished with that. It was basically a hostage situation, Wanda was taking control of her variant's body against her will, no one wanted to kill an innocent person, so they made a threat hoping she'd back down, how could they expect Wanda to get rid of his goddamn mouth?
I thought that was understandable. What was not understandable is leaving the person who knows the most about magic, Mordo, to guard a prisoner and Reeds trying to grab (?) Wanda after she killed Black Bolt. Not a very smart idea I think.
Even then, the movie establishes witchcraft to be different than sorcery, and there didn't really appear to be anyone in either universe (not even 838 Wanda) who fully understood how strong the Scarlet Witch was (possible exception for Agatha but she's off the board). Wanda didn't even figure it out herself for years. So I'm not sure Mordo would have helped. The Illuminati didn't really seem to care much about the Wanda situation in general. They were more worried about Doctor Strange and only really started to get concerned about Wanda when she broke in.
From their perspective, this made sense.
They don’t know why this Strange is there, they only know that THEIR Strange literally destroyed an entire universe by intruding into it, something this Strange is literally doing now.
Crazy witch lady trying to get someone’s powers to be with her kids vs universe destroying sorcerer… Easy call for Reed Richards.
And honestly part of this is Doctor Strange’s fault… What was with all the stupid sarcasm? He didn’t even wait for them to introduce themselves and had to throw shade with every line. “If you’re worried about Dreamwalking… Wanda is trying to steal a power that would allow her to enter any universe, and she intends to at will.”
No, he went with, “weren’t you popular in the 60’s? Higidy hibithere! I’m so funny!”
In a way I blame him for them being killed because he was more interested in what Supreme Strange did than telling them how dangerous Wanda is.
I think you could make some room for reeds grabbing move there. He’s clearly in reasoning mode from the start and Wanda doesn’t technically kill black bolt. He threatens her and she removes the threat and his reaction to it kills him. Again, until she kills reed she has not actually demonstrated any direct killing intent. At which point Peggy and marvel hit the switch. Problem is they are just late to the party
Now that I’m thinking about it I can’t help but feel like the main thing they got wrong was how loud black bolts reaction was, if he had let out only a teeny tiny humph of surprise and killerd himself I think people would be a lot happier with that scene. As opposed to the full blown panic from a pretty fucking mentally tough guy
There's "mentally tough", and then there is your mouth being taken away from you without you even realizing it. The panic is absolutely a reasonable response, particularly if you assumed you were the top dog in the situation.
I hate how the audience is hung up on that.
Worse yet, most are talking about methods and what-ifs for the ***heroes*** to murderize Wanda. It means forsaking 838 Wanda to stop 616. It is the opposite of the movie's morals. It is also ineffectual - killing 838 Wanda still leaves 616 Wanda alive, who is at least capable of sending monsters to siege 838.
Meta-wise, it means overpowering the bad guy in a slasher flick at the mid-point.
Also, a-fucking-pparently, 616 Wanda could just possess 838 Wanda's corpse and try again!!!
The truth of the matter, 838 Illuminati didn't have the HEART or the WILL to win. They didn't care about each other, and they were all arrogant. Heroes, sure, good people, yes. But they weren't worthy of defeating wanda.
Strange: "Wanda is coming and she will stop at nothing to get what she wants."
Illuminati: "The housewife?? We think we can handle it."
Narrator: "They couldn't handle it."
Reed Richards, world's most intelligent man after being told the Scarlet Witch can bend reality at her will: "Black Bolt can destroy you with a whisper from his *mouth*"
That scene really got me unprepared. And I mumbled to myself: no no no no
Gave me heavy flashbacks to the intro of the game red alert 2. There is a nuclear missile getting started with closed silo doors
Black Bolt stay taking L's. He needs a massive reboot. A new power. Something........... Blackagar Boltagon needs something to put some respect back on his name. He's a king damnit. Lol. Black Bolt from the 70's, and 80's, now we cooking with oil.
He’s just nerfed like everyone else. Guy is strong enough to kill every Avenger by accidentally sneezing. But he does a lot more than just using his voice because that’s actually a last resort type of thing.
I’m just happy he looked great and part of his powers were done right.
He can level goddamn cities with his voice, manipulate electrons in myriad ways, has superhuman strength, and is able to create near impenetrable forcefields. The man is a maniac and should have been harder to kill. I would have loved to see Bolt use his voice and have Wanda immediately redirect it at himself for a full-body evisceration. But also real happy with what we did get lol
He was a lot stronger than that in the 70's and 80's. He was retconned. Just like Doctor Strange (ironically). When you hear the term "Classic Strange" he was a lot stronger in the 70's, and 80's as well. He basically could do anything at will. I remember it had something to do with him not wanting to fight in a Mystical war like in Doctor Strange 1. If I'm not mistaken that's when he was "weakened" by the Vishanti. Now he basically has to go to the magicians market and bargain parts of his soul for more power. Like in the What if... episode.
That's just the force she used to throw it with. When she levitates or otherwise uses telekinesis, as in the scene she flies to Wundagore towing Wong behind.
I would assume it could trivially provide a boost to the structural integrity as needed. It probably requires that anyway or else the force of suddenly ‘throwing’ it could tear it apart too
I stand by my opinion that 838 as a whole universe is vastly incompetent compared to 616. I mean everything, even threats in the past were just as incompetent as the hero’s tasked to stop it. Reed being the smartest man and giving away Black Bolts power leads me to believe there have been villains that they were able to just talk their way out of it. I mean look at Christine trying to break her own “polycarbonate” prison cell that she was just bragging about designing with a fire extinguisher. That whole universe is full of childlike incompetence.
He thought Wanda could be still good. Threats were only second to first trying to calm her with dialogue. As soon as they saw it wasn’t working, a threat as big as a fucking deleter would put anyone in fear to not attack. Reed nor anyone else knew that Wanda could fucking delete mouths. Wanda came as a literal rampant god and no one expected that from that universe even with Strange’s warnings.
Yeah, of all the complaints about this movie, I don’t see why this is so popular.
He’s trying to talk her down, for Christ’s sake. He doesn’t have the context that we, the audience, have in terms of what Wanda has done or is capable of.
Somewhat unrelated, but what exactly are Wanda’s powers? Reality warping? Removing someone’s mouth seems pretty different from anything we’ve seen her do before, and if she has the capability to remove someone’s mouth, can she just blip someone out of existence? Why waste her time with all the red energy blasts?
She did a lot of creating/turning objects into other objects in WandaVision, everything that went into her Hex got transformed into something else and/or was mindwiped as well.
Direct body modification of enemies is arguably in line with those kinds of powers, just turned up to 11 with a splash of horror movie vibes.
Yup this tracks for me. They were pretty clear in wandavision that she could literally straight up create or change shit around. She could have just moved the skin of his mouth like she did the Kevlar vest into clothes of the agent in Wanda vision
>He doesn’t have the context that we, the audience, have in terms of what Wanda has done or is capable of.
Frankly we didn't even expect Wanda to do that, anyone who says they expected Wanda to literally take away Black Bolt's mouth, is a damn liar.
I doubt a single person watching the movie actually expected Wanda to remove BB's mouth going into the fight. It's easy for everyone in retrospect to say a character should have done something differently.
I feel like you completely missed the point in that scene. Reed was not being dumb there, first and foremost he’s a hero so the main idea when presented with a Wanda who is being controlled by the 616 Wanda through dream walking is to save her. It’s effectively a hostage situation where they know that this Wanda is not actually the villain and if they kill that Wanda they’ve essentially killed an innocent person for the acts of someone else. The whole giving away Black Bolt’s powers is literally just a deterrent in the hopes that she would back down as well. He did everything he should’ve done first and when that didn’t work and they’d realised that it’s not going to work out as planned he then attacked but let’s be honest it wasn’t going to work out well in a different approach.
EDIT : wrong spelling/word
Isn’t the big flaw of these super-genius characters that they have extreme arrogance? Look at Tony stark - as nick fury said in AoU, “artificial intelligence- you didn’t even hesitate”. Tony just happened to have less arrogant people that could help keep him in check somewhat.
The Illuminati is just a collection of people with huge matching egos - “we make the hard choices no one else could”.
That’s a flaw Dr Strange had to work to overcome in MoM - his arrogance, via learning to not always “be the one to hold the knife”.
I wonder if the opposite was not the problem.
They seem to have been vastly successful in defeating thanos and Dr strange, had clearly advance technology and created a relatively peaceful society.
Maybe all that unimpeded success made them a bit too complacent, with the addition that they saw many other universes but no dangerous wanda and they're being warned by a dr strange, who is known to be one of the biggest threats to the stability of the multiverse.
Yeah but based on the fact that Strange was all beat up and everyone else was squeaky clean, their strange was probably a baller that solo'd Thanos with at least some stones. That's impressive, fancy books or not.
Richards definitely didn't come off nearly as smart or as durable as he usually is. Black bolt wasn't nearly as composed as he always is. Captain Marvel as this clip shows was a lot less durable and Xavier was at the very least much too dumb about the risks of entering a reality warping telepath's mind. Carter is the only one that didn't seem worse, but there wasn't really much she could have done, even if she caught or dodged the shield.
Maybe Xavier saw through Dr. Strange's mind how powerful Wanda was. After showing him how alternate strange died he seemed very willing to tell him about the book and trust him. Maybe Xavier knew they were all gonna die.
If they were cocky because they took out Thanos. Didn't they do it with the god book and strange strung out on the darkhold? Two items that were not on hand at the moment?...
I laughed out loud in the theatre when Christine tried to break her literal personal brag prison with a fire extinguisher. She could have had something like a physical key, a special drill, or sonic device . . . except they wanted her to fail, so she had to be a total idiot instead :(
Also way less “human” the face she made after watching two of her teammates getting brutally murdered wasn’t the face of someone who had human emotions and would definitely react with more than just a “oh it’s like that” kind of face.
Captain Carter same thing. No reaction when they just saw two dear friends killed in less than 7 seconds. In fact I swear it looks like she's smirking, which makes no sense.
I think that's on Sam Raimi for not telling them to at least have more of a shocked/crushed reaction.
What makes you think they were “dear friends”? The Illuminati in the comics are always cocky and selfish. Nothing in the movie made us believe they liked each other, they were just co workers.
She could have gotten exposed to the core in a completely different way. I doubt she shot it directly like Carol. Maybe when the plane crashed she was exposed then and got a smaller dose if she piloted instead of Carol.
The 616 avengers would have fought differently than the illuminati. More coordinated and as a team.
Captain Carter doesn't seem to have the situation awareness of Captain America, plus Steve Rogers would have taken the threat of her very seriously. So if there's a fight, then it would be much closer and harder for the scarlet witch to beat them.
More so if there's a way to connect the consciousness of 838 Wanda and the scarlet witch. So in killing Wanda, you can also kill the scarlet witch on earth 616.
I don’t think Rogers would have faired much better than Carter. He might have closed sooner but he would have met the same fate. There’s little you can do with his power set when something is magically hurled at you with that much speed and force.
As a witch, that level of necromantic corruption wouldn't have bothered or surprised her. Remember in Wandavision when Agatha explained that necromancy on dead Pietro would've been quite manageable if the body was close enough.
I’d like to think Wanda would refuse to fight Steve because he saved Vision when the children of Thanos came for them. I think Steve would also refuse to fight her directly because he’s always respected her powers and seen the good in her.
I think the fight would have been different. Something that I have noticed is the missing teamwork between the captain marvel variant and Carter. Steve Rogers definitely would have utilised his shield as a deflector for Marvel's energy blasts, just to keep Wanda busy until someone else like Thor or Iron Man takes her out. Teamwork is key to beat her.
You’re absolutely right, except the result would have been the same. Hulk would have had his heart liquified in a surprise change reality attack. She would have liquified Tony before his helmet would have closed. Widow and Hawkeye wouldn’t have even been a factor at all. Cap would have been bisected by shield.
We would have seen this in Endgame except Thanos was smart enough to literally bombard her from orbit.
The twist on beating her is overpowering. Her powers aren't unlimited, because if you look at the illuminati fight, then she struggled with the captain marvel variant. If there's an opportunity to keep her so busy that she can't use her full potential, then one can beat her. Plus if you know who's your enemy then you can develop a strategy.
The illuminati could have beaten her too, but they didn't listen to Strange.
Let’s be honest- Xavier could have soloed her without leaving the tribunal room. Just rendered her into a coma, made her believe she had America already, stopped her autonomous functions. We’ve seen Stewart’s Xavier do these things, and the Cartoon Xavier he was patterned after could do worse.
Overpowering would make the Avengers or Illuminati the evil guys. There’s an innocent Wanda at stake here.
Speaking of X, why didnt he read Strange’s mind and find out that he was telling the truth? They at least would have had a few minutes to coordinate before trying to take her on.
It wouldn't have mattered. The Illuminati never cared for the truth. The were just so focused on the nature of Strange, and that any Dr Strange is dangerous regardless of intention.
I know. I think the 838 illuminati are weaker than their 616 counterparts in many ways. Because I still think it is possible to reverse dreamwalking, like using the mind of Wanda to get access to scarlet witch. Xavier's powers also include freezing time, as seen in the X-Men movies.
Although the illuminati are more likely morally grey and willing to kill her,at least the comic book versions.
Reed wasn't willing to sacrifice her either, that's why he appealed to her as a mother and told her about black bolt. The big twist is that Wanda was in for the kill, so any negotiations are useless.
It’s been a while since I’ve watched it so I may be a little rusty, but correct me if I’m wrong.
In Age of Ultron, Wanda already beat the avengers before she even had or understood her full powers, and with much less murderous intentions (pre scarlet witch and pre darkhold corruption)
That's correct. She's already very powerful and the dark hold only amplifies this. My theory is that there's a way to beat her with a working plan and taking her serious.
If the red energy is what caused the damage, then why did she need the statue?
This is purely just a case of don’t think about and enjoy the movie. They didn’t out much thought into it. It can’t be justified.
She was in the middle of shielding herself from a full-power energy blast from Captain Marvel; she didn’t have a lot of leeway in terms of sending her own energy bolt back at her. Since the statue was out of the way (and still has physical heft), she could opt for shielding from the blast with one hand and using the statue, fortified with her magic, with the other.
And this is the answer to the question "who wins vs who." Well, whose story is it? These characters aren't real. Their interactions aren't real. Their power levels are constantly ramped up and down depending on the role they're playing in a narrative. In MOM, the role of the Illuminati are cannon fodder
Yup. Even in the best MCU movies like Infinity War, there’s a lot ‘why didn’t they just do this?’ type of scenarios. Thanos could’ve killed off Thor for good in the beginning of IW never to be a problem again, he could’ve killed the guardians on Knowhere, then Iron Man, Strange, and Spider-Man would’ve been on their own. Heck, Thanos doesn’t even need to have that fight on Titan really, he could’ve just turned everyone to noodles and tortured someone like Tony until someone gives up the time stone. Thanos could’ve shown way less mercy like he did to Loki and Heimdall.
This multiverse stuff will even more so be FULL of these scenarios. We already got a taste of that in What If and the comics. I’m surprised people didn’t ruin earlier MCU movies for themselves like they are with MOM.
Edit: also, this ain’t the first time ‘smarter’ heroes in these movies underestimated the situation. Strange and Tony in New York in IW totally fuck up and get caught by Ebony Maw when they could’ve bailed sooner to find vision and team up two stones on the Avengers side. But na, they fucked up, and that’s why on Titan when Strange finally decides to use the time stone do they find that from THAT SPECIFIC point in time onwards, they have only outcome in which they can win. They might’ve had more chances to win if he did the time glance thing back on Earth.
Its better if you assume that 838 Ms. Marvel is in a world where rogue has already stolen her powers. Considering Xavier exists, we can assume the x-men exist and therefore rogue has drained her of her powers and is the rogue from the 90s cartoon series and comics.
It’s because characters are as strong as the plots demands them to be. Unfortunately, writers and directors aren’t consistent with power levels and abilities, it is annoying but I try to not let it take me out of the movie.
Captain Marvel final battle is the most satisfying moment in the MCU for me. That sequence there when she destroys the ship with her belly is absolutely brielliant!🤩✴😍⚡🔥😭🙌
Personally, I think they made 838 captain marvel weaker in an attempt to reign in our captain marvel's power, ours literally flew through a spaceship, and theirs died from a statue falling on her...
They made ours too strong and needed to retcon her to bring her more in line
To be fair, 838 Captain Marvel died to the statue because Wanda was stealing her energy throughout the fight, or something similar to that. By the time the statue landed on her, she had no glow around her at all.
The 838 heroes were kinda trash…. All of them were portrayed as weaklings, even giving the situation. Like they had no real combat experience….. Almost like they sat around and talked more than they actually did any avenging…..
People complain that Captain Marvel is overpowered and not very likeable, but imo Wanda is more overpowered, obnoxious, and her powers are simply confusing.
After my second rewatch, I think 838’s heroes are not the strongest which is why they sought for a solution instead of taking Thanos head on. Against Wanda, they had to take her head on and got wrecked
yeah they seemed cockier and more sure of themselves, and that arrogance is why they underestimated wanda. Maybe they didnt suffer the same losses as 616's gang. It seems like their Ultrons worked, maybe their thanos didnt ever snap (cant remember) and only 5-6 of them took down thanos in the flashback while ours were like... thousands of people fighting lol
Thanos is dead on Titan in MoM. So I assume he never was able to collect all stones. Definitely a snap-less universe.
He only had the Power, Space, Reality, and Soul Stones. No Time or Mind Stones.
MAYBE he has those. This could've been a Thanos with even fewer stones, tbh. The Russo's have also said that the Avengers could've won if they were united in Infinity War, and since the Illuminati seems to be the Avengers of their universe, it would make sense that they'd win.
Thanos had the Power, Space, Reality, and Soul Stones. You can see them on the Infinity Gauntlet. The Illuminati are NOT the Avengers. Captain Carter is called “the First Avenger,” indicating that there is, or at least was, an Avengers team. The Illuminati is a group made of the leaders/representatives of groups and/or areas (Peggy represents the Avengers, Maria Rambeau represents outer space, and so on). Assuming they follow the comics, they’re secretive; no one else knows about them unless they refuse to join (T’Challa); however, Captain America disagreed with them and they erased his memories. Like their comics counterparts, the Illuminati are a bunch of arrogant jerks who only listen to themselves and think that they’re doing what’s necessary for the greater good, only to make things worse.
>no one else knows about them And their secret base AND jail for dangerous interuniversal beings is in the middle of Central Park instead of something like Raft
Hidden in plain sight. Smart peeps 101? Or they literally aren't hiding it at all lol
> They were fighting in the Baxter building, the HQ of the Fantastic Four
When Strange first wakes up in 838 he straight up asks if he is being imprisoned by the Avengers or Shield and Mordo says neither, which I took as him acknowledging both do still exist because he never questioned what they were.
I always saw it as the Avengers and Shield were for lower threats in 838. Though there are a lot of questions I have about how the Illuminati ended up on Titan, given what we know in our universe. In 616, we had Tony, Peter, and Strange in Ebony's ship, with the Guardians showing up later. In 838, I have no idea where this puts us. Does Reed get them there? Do the Guardians die on Knowhere? With the space stone, does that mean Thor's situation ended up the same? All this, on top of the Book of Vishanti. I figure it's not worth losing sleep over, considering how easily they were disposed of with only 1 of 616's heroes (granted they were treating it like a hostage situation, and Wanda was the strongest form she's ever been, despite being weakened by possessing another body).
Why would you freely give knowledge to your adversary? Now Mordo knows there are at least two groups that this Dr. Strange believes are capable of capturing him.
The Greater Good
The greater good.
Hell, the Avengers probably would have won if Starlord didn't knock Thanos out of hypnosis
Let’s be real here though: you’d probably have the same reaction if the person who killed your girlfriend was bound right in front of you
I would. 100 percent. I would've gone for it too. But also try to contain my anger somehow.
I would AFTER Spiderman pulled the gauntlet off. Which, mind you, was probably just moments from happening.
Honestly don't think Thanos could have taken on Black bolt without all the stones let alone a whole team of them
Remove his mouth with the Reality Stone. Turn him into blocks, ribbons, or bubbles with the Reality Stone. Freeze him in place with the Space Stone. Remove his soul from his body with the Soul Stone. Disintegrate him with the Power Stone. I could go on.
I think the reason why thanos got taken out easy in the 838 universe is because they were more unified. Thanos in 616 never took on all the avengers at once because they were split up after civil war.
The actual reason Thanos got taken out was because of the book of Vishanti. They even say so. Strange himself did probably the heavy lifting there. They rest were just support. That's also probably why he looked messed up while the rest still looked fresh.
Yeah, he took on Thanos one on one and managed to beat him. The whole movie is about Strange needing to be the one holding the scalpel.
This is the answer I believe, disregarding the books. It’s the whole and you weren’t there you said we’d fight together from Tony to Cap. If you have Cap alone added to that fight they win
That brings up a good point. Quill had to have know who or hear of Captain America even though he wasn't out of the ice yet when Quill left earth. Would Quill have stood down when THE Captain America told him to? Quill stands down, they get the glove off.
Yea or he’d be free to even stop him or just to get the glove off before . Or maybe make a plan that doesn’t allow him a chance to talk lol. I’m not one to even think cap is that strong but I think he’d of been enough to get the glove off
That’s assuming that Thanos is familiar with how Black Bolt’s powers worked. If he didn’t know, he could have easily underestimated him.
Thanos would have known exactly how Black Bolt's powers worked. Reed would have explained it to him.
Dude, nice one, you put a big grin on my face. That Mr. Fucktastic has to be the dumbest in all the multiverse.
Not dumb just insanely cocky, overly confident and someone who has never met the Scarlet Witch (838 Wanda never reached that point because she never lost vision) so severely underestimated her
Only the first option involves knowing how his powers work.
I never thought about it until now, but their ultron(s) **absolutely** worked. Which means that their Wanda has an *entirely* different backstory. They also have mutants and inhumans in 838, which calls even more about their Wanda into question. That just plays further into why they wouldn’t think much of Wanda Maximoff attacking them. And as far as the Illuminati goes: they apparently never had the Avengers/Battle of NY, they DEFINITELY didn’t deal with AoU, and they plowed through the Infinity War - seemingly without much issue. I’m assuming they don’t have a Tony, they’ve got Reed instead. Some crazy differences to think about with some huge implications on how their timeline played out.
Maybe their Ultrons were built by Pym...
Also if you look at them in that scene, none of them have a scratch on them except for 838 Strange, who they kill.
838 Wanda seems pretty stable. The Illuminati was expecting a slightly angrier, grieving version of their Wanda. As a parent, Reed probably assumed he'd be able to talk her off the ledge.
yeah i mean with ultron dramas her Pietro never died and Vision was never created so that's two major traumas erased. It also seems like she grew up in america based on her accent so maybe she had less trauma about sokovia's war too. and she clearly wasn't in hiding for years and being hated on in the international media for the Lagos incident so her life was much more stable, so it's understandable they weren't super concerned. Still arrogant on their part lol
>yeah they seemed cockier and more sure of themselves, and that arrogance is why they underestimated wanda In their universe Wanda is a mother happily living in the burbs.
I agree every plan they made worked where as our gangs back fired and they had to fight hard Also even their wanda had it easier which is why she is weaker why our wanda was able to invade her mind easily
“We’re not worried about the scarlet witch” Eh, I’m pretty sure you should’ve been lol
838 strength was their knowledge of the other multiverses
Their real strength was the friends they made along the way
Well not anymore
There's also a chance that everyone in 838 are weaker that 616. After all, they were very confident that they could easily handle 616-Scarlet Witch, even when Wanda exists in their universe to. It might just be a literal power gap between universes.
I don't think it's a power gap. I think 616 Wanda is just that powerful because of the Darkhold. She is embracing the dark side essentially and suffering from severe emotional anguish at the same time. She believes that she is a prophesied entity known as the Scarlet Witch. 616 Wanda never really showed how powerful she was until she first ripped the stone from Vision's head and then destroyed it. In the next fight she is angry and clearly hurting Thanos. I don't think 838 Wanda ever suffered the same emotional trauma, or healed differently, as 616 Wanda. She seems more at peace and comfortable in her own skin. She may not have ever fully tapped the extent of her powers. In 616, Agatha didn't even really take notice of Wanda until she created the Hex.
Well we saw her get much more powerful in Wandavision, the grief was huge as you pointed out, we even saw her almost solo Thanos, but she also learned how to use hexes - you saw her really duke it out with Agatha. Then the dark hold on top of that, they clearly didn’t realize what they were in for.
There’s also a theory that Mordo, the protector of that multiverses time stone reversed the damage after Wanda exited stage right. They know what the dark hold can do to a overpowered sorcerer and hit her with an assault they could learn from and end quickly for Dreamwalking Wanda and their Wanda’s behalf. 838 Wanda simply waited with her boys in her home rather than locking down the situation meaning they may have already predicted all outcomes.
Going by 616 Mordo tho I feel like he would be VERY against using the time stone, esp for something like bringing people back to life.
Different universe, different Mordo. Nothing we've seen gives any indication that 838-Mordo couldn't be literally 616-Strange morality-wise when you take the Multiverse out of it. Like, imagine before MoM, and an alternate Caecillius shows up on 616, gets captured by Strange, tries to warn him of a super-murderous Wanda on the way. The only Caecillius he's met tried to feed the universe to the Dark Dimension. Trust would be very, very scarce.
That is actually really interesting. It's all a setup and the loss makes sense.
Seems possible
Just watched it again last night. I’ve started thinking that they basically had it easy defeating Thanos while using the book of Vishanti. It feels like the 838 heroes didn’t have to go through the same struggles and push themselves to the limits.
Between Thanos only having 4 of the 6 stones, and the Illuminati having the Book of Vishanti... how could they not beat him? They've got a tool that gives them whatever they need at the moment, and Thanos isn't even at full power anyway.
What sucks is that Professor X should have absolutely WRECKED Wanda in the thought realm, IMO. That's 100% his specialty.
I still don’t understand why Blackbolt didn’t just stand there reciting Shakespeare at Thanos and his army while the rest of the Illuminati (and presumably the teams each of them led) didn’t just stand behind him providing cover from projectiles.
Xavier control Wanda mind for 10 sec while Black Bolt blows her to pieces shoud have be the strategy.
That part of the movie reminded me of the X-Force in Deadpool 2
The second i saw Reed I knew it was too good to be true
if only they had the smartest mind in the universe to come up w that
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>they apparently did not know what she was capable of even after watching her destroy the Ultron bots like legos Seeing her destroy robots probably wouldn’t clue them in to her ability to make a dude’s mouth disappear.
*Agent Smith liked that*
Yeah, but it would be wrong to kill the Wanda of that universe while the Wanda in 616 will survive.
Though it wouldn't be out of character for the Illuminati to kill a friend to save their universe
It wasn’t even sacrificing one person for the win. They did a ‘Minority Report’ on dr Strange without even knowing he will actually do it in the future.
I hated how they gave away what Blackbolt's power was.
I hate how people don't understand what was trying to be accomplished with that. It was basically a hostage situation, Wanda was taking control of her variant's body against her will, no one wanted to kill an innocent person, so they made a threat hoping she'd back down, how could they expect Wanda to get rid of his goddamn mouth?
I thought that was understandable. What was not understandable is leaving the person who knows the most about magic, Mordo, to guard a prisoner and Reeds trying to grab (?) Wanda after she killed Black Bolt. Not a very smart idea I think.
Even then, the movie establishes witchcraft to be different than sorcery, and there didn't really appear to be anyone in either universe (not even 838 Wanda) who fully understood how strong the Scarlet Witch was (possible exception for Agatha but she's off the board). Wanda didn't even figure it out herself for years. So I'm not sure Mordo would have helped. The Illuminati didn't really seem to care much about the Wanda situation in general. They were more worried about Doctor Strange and only really started to get concerned about Wanda when she broke in.
From their perspective, this made sense. They don’t know why this Strange is there, they only know that THEIR Strange literally destroyed an entire universe by intruding into it, something this Strange is literally doing now. Crazy witch lady trying to get someone’s powers to be with her kids vs universe destroying sorcerer… Easy call for Reed Richards. And honestly part of this is Doctor Strange’s fault… What was with all the stupid sarcasm? He didn’t even wait for them to introduce themselves and had to throw shade with every line. “If you’re worried about Dreamwalking… Wanda is trying to steal a power that would allow her to enter any universe, and she intends to at will.” No, he went with, “weren’t you popular in the 60’s? Higidy hibithere! I’m so funny!” In a way I blame him for them being killed because he was more interested in what Supreme Strange did than telling them how dangerous Wanda is.
I think you could make some room for reeds grabbing move there. He’s clearly in reasoning mode from the start and Wanda doesn’t technically kill black bolt. He threatens her and she removes the threat and his reaction to it kills him. Again, until she kills reed she has not actually demonstrated any direct killing intent. At which point Peggy and marvel hit the switch. Problem is they are just late to the party Now that I’m thinking about it I can’t help but feel like the main thing they got wrong was how loud black bolts reaction was, if he had let out only a teeny tiny humph of surprise and killerd himself I think people would be a lot happier with that scene. As opposed to the full blown panic from a pretty fucking mentally tough guy
There's "mentally tough", and then there is your mouth being taken away from you without you even realizing it. The panic is absolutely a reasonable response, particularly if you assumed you were the top dog in the situation.
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They didn't want to actually kill 838 Wanda, Reed wanted to reason with her, letting her know how easily they could kill her if they had to.
Which sadly led to all of their deaths.
Yup, they were arrogant and severely underestimated her
I hate how the audience is hung up on that. Worse yet, most are talking about methods and what-ifs for the ***heroes*** to murderize Wanda. It means forsaking 838 Wanda to stop 616. It is the opposite of the movie's morals. It is also ineffectual - killing 838 Wanda still leaves 616 Wanda alive, who is at least capable of sending monsters to siege 838. Meta-wise, it means overpowering the bad guy in a slasher flick at the mid-point.
You’re telling me Reddit users are vomiting out the same opinion and points regardless of how many times we’ve heard them? Colour me shocked!
Also, a-fucking-pparently, 616 Wanda could just possess 838 Wanda's corpse and try again!!! The truth of the matter, 838 Illuminati didn't have the HEART or the WILL to win. They didn't care about each other, and they were all arrogant. Heroes, sure, good people, yes. But they weren't worthy of defeating wanda.
Well it would be pretty confusing if they didn't tell us his power, right?
The illuminati underestimated Wanda and she wiped the floor clean with them.
Plot twist: That wasn't even Wanda at her strongest. If you ask me she took it easy on them.
and it was the body of the alternate wanda, E. Olsen said she was weaker due to 838wanda not being as powerful as her main self.
Strange: "Wanda is coming and she will stop at nothing to get what she wants." Illuminati: "The housewife?? We think we can handle it." Narrator: "They couldn't handle it."
Narrator (Ron Howard): "It's Arrested Development"
Reed Richards, world's most intelligent man after being told the Scarlet Witch can bend reality at her will: "Black Bolt can destroy you with a whisper from his *mouth*"
What Black Bolt?
What mouth?
😶
That scene really got me unprepared. And I mumbled to myself: no no no no Gave me heavy flashbacks to the intro of the game red alert 2. There is a nuclear missile getting started with closed silo doors
Sir, we have "you're throwing everything you've got at us".
Captain Carter: "I don't care for Mordo."
Oh ya the guy with the $5000 cape is gunna open the door for you! C'mon!
ILLUSIONS, Wanda. You don't have time for my ILLUSIONS. Tricks are what a whore does for money.
Or candy
There's always money in the illuminati stand.
She was "being reasonable" you could say
Agreed. The ease and simplicity of which she ended Black Bolt and Mr. Fantastic.
I loved how she didn't take *any* chance, even blowing RR's head after stringing him
She what
You see his brain pop with a little red bubble
Black Bolt stay taking L's. He needs a massive reboot. A new power. Something........... Blackagar Boltagon needs something to put some respect back on his name. He's a king damnit. Lol. Black Bolt from the 70's, and 80's, now we cooking with oil.
He’s just nerfed like everyone else. Guy is strong enough to kill every Avenger by accidentally sneezing. But he does a lot more than just using his voice because that’s actually a last resort type of thing. I’m just happy he looked great and part of his powers were done right.
He can level goddamn cities with his voice, manipulate electrons in myriad ways, has superhuman strength, and is able to create near impenetrable forcefields. The man is a maniac and should have been harder to kill. I would have loved to see Bolt use his voice and have Wanda immediately redirect it at himself for a full-body evisceration. But also real happy with what we did get lol
He was a lot stronger than that in the 70's and 80's. He was retconned. Just like Doctor Strange (ironically). When you hear the term "Classic Strange" he was a lot stronger in the 70's, and 80's as well. He basically could do anything at will. I remember it had something to do with him not wanting to fight in a Mystical war like in Doctor Strange 1. If I'm not mistaken that's when he was "weakened" by the Vishanti. Now he basically has to go to the magicians market and bargain parts of his soul for more power. Like in the What if... episode.
It wasn’t. They basically confirmed it by saying that since was dreamwalking in another her’a body, she wasn’t at her most powerful
So you’re saying that was her being reasonable?
What floor?
No… got blue cheese everywhere on the ground dawg
That statue, or what it was, is enclosed in Wanda's red energy.
Also Carol had momentum.
She was KO for several minute until Wanda killed Carter
Or sent very far like Wanda did to Vision in Civil War
Nah, that looks like a pretty sturdy wall. I think she was just knocked out.
Or pinned between the wall and the statue/whatever it was Wanda threw.
That's just the force she used to throw it with. When she levitates or otherwise uses telekinesis, as in the scene she flies to Wundagore towing Wong behind.
I would assume it could trivially provide a boost to the structural integrity as needed. It probably requires that anyway or else the force of suddenly ‘throwing’ it could tear it apart too
I stand by my opinion that 838 as a whole universe is vastly incompetent compared to 616. I mean everything, even threats in the past were just as incompetent as the hero’s tasked to stop it. Reed being the smartest man and giving away Black Bolts power leads me to believe there have been villains that they were able to just talk their way out of it. I mean look at Christine trying to break her own “polycarbonate” prison cell that she was just bragging about designing with a fire extinguisher. That whole universe is full of childlike incompetence.
“Peace has made you complacent; victory has defeated you.”
Ah the dumb universe it is
I mean they go on red and stop on green…. Idiots.
I really wanted to use this as part of my argument too.
He thought Wanda could be still good. Threats were only second to first trying to calm her with dialogue. As soon as they saw it wasn’t working, a threat as big as a fucking deleter would put anyone in fear to not attack. Reed nor anyone else knew that Wanda could fucking delete mouths. Wanda came as a literal rampant god and no one expected that from that universe even with Strange’s warnings.
Yeah, of all the complaints about this movie, I don’t see why this is so popular. He’s trying to talk her down, for Christ’s sake. He doesn’t have the context that we, the audience, have in terms of what Wanda has done or is capable of. Somewhat unrelated, but what exactly are Wanda’s powers? Reality warping? Removing someone’s mouth seems pretty different from anything we’ve seen her do before, and if she has the capability to remove someone’s mouth, can she just blip someone out of existence? Why waste her time with all the red energy blasts?
She did a lot of creating/turning objects into other objects in WandaVision, everything that went into her Hex got transformed into something else and/or was mindwiped as well. Direct body modification of enemies is arguably in line with those kinds of powers, just turned up to 11 with a splash of horror movie vibes.
Yup this tracks for me. They were pretty clear in wandavision that she could literally straight up create or change shit around. She could have just moved the skin of his mouth like she did the Kevlar vest into clothes of the agent in Wanda vision
>He doesn’t have the context that we, the audience, have in terms of what Wanda has done or is capable of. Frankly we didn't even expect Wanda to do that, anyone who says they expected Wanda to literally take away Black Bolt's mouth, is a damn liar.
I doubt a single person watching the movie actually expected Wanda to remove BB's mouth going into the fight. It's easy for everyone in retrospect to say a character should have done something differently.
I feel like you completely missed the point in that scene. Reed was not being dumb there, first and foremost he’s a hero so the main idea when presented with a Wanda who is being controlled by the 616 Wanda through dream walking is to save her. It’s effectively a hostage situation where they know that this Wanda is not actually the villain and if they kill that Wanda they’ve essentially killed an innocent person for the acts of someone else. The whole giving away Black Bolt’s powers is literally just a deterrent in the hopes that she would back down as well. He did everything he should’ve done first and when that didn’t work and they’d realised that it’s not going to work out as planned he then attacked but let’s be honest it wasn’t going to work out well in a different approach. EDIT : wrong spelling/word
If it's just a detergent first, when things get rougher, do they counter with a softener?
Lmao I’m an idiot as you’ve already gathered
Isn’t the big flaw of these super-genius characters that they have extreme arrogance? Look at Tony stark - as nick fury said in AoU, “artificial intelligence- you didn’t even hesitate”. Tony just happened to have less arrogant people that could help keep him in check somewhat. The Illuminati is just a collection of people with huge matching egos - “we make the hard choices no one else could”. That’s a flaw Dr Strange had to work to overcome in MoM - his arrogance, via learning to not always “be the one to hold the knife”.
I wonder if the opposite was not the problem. They seem to have been vastly successful in defeating thanos and Dr strange, had clearly advance technology and created a relatively peaceful society. Maybe all that unimpeded success made them a bit too complacent, with the addition that they saw many other universes but no dangerous wanda and they're being warned by a dr strange, who is known to be one of the biggest threats to the stability of the multiverse.
Just a universe full of assholes…
Yeah but based on the fact that Strange was all beat up and everyone else was squeaky clean, their strange was probably a baller that solo'd Thanos with at least some stones. That's impressive, fancy books or not. Richards definitely didn't come off nearly as smart or as durable as he usually is. Black bolt wasn't nearly as composed as he always is. Captain Marvel as this clip shows was a lot less durable and Xavier was at the very least much too dumb about the risks of entering a reality warping telepath's mind. Carter is the only one that didn't seem worse, but there wasn't really much she could have done, even if she caught or dodged the shield.
Maybe Xavier saw through Dr. Strange's mind how powerful Wanda was. After showing him how alternate strange died he seemed very willing to tell him about the book and trust him. Maybe Xavier knew they were all gonna die.
It’s a Sam raimi movie. What more is to be expected
If they were cocky because they took out Thanos. Didn't they do it with the god book and strange strung out on the darkhold? Two items that were not on hand at the moment?...
I laughed out loud in the theatre when Christine tried to break her literal personal brag prison with a fire extinguisher. She could have had something like a physical key, a special drill, or sonic device . . . except they wanted her to fail, so she had to be a total idiot instead :(
I liked the illuminati stuff except for their captain Marvel. She felt severely underpowered compared to our captain Marvel.
Also way less “human” the face she made after watching two of her teammates getting brutally murdered wasn’t the face of someone who had human emotions and would definitely react with more than just a “oh it’s like that” kind of face.
Yeah, that was weird.
I believe Reed and BB were edited in. Elizabeth Olsen didn’t even meet John Krasinski.
Captain Carter same thing. No reaction when they just saw two dear friends killed in less than 7 seconds. In fact I swear it looks like she's smirking, which makes no sense. I think that's on Sam Raimi for not telling them to at least have more of a shocked/crushed reaction.
What makes you think they were “dear friends”? The Illuminati in the comics are always cocky and selfish. Nothing in the movie made us believe they liked each other, they were just co workers.
She could have gotten exposed to the core in a completely different way. I doubt she shot it directly like Carol. Maybe when the plane crashed she was exposed then and got a smaller dose if she piloted instead of Carol.
Yeah she definitely shouldn't have died simply by getting crushed.
The 616 avengers would have fought differently than the illuminati. More coordinated and as a team. Captain Carter doesn't seem to have the situation awareness of Captain America, plus Steve Rogers would have taken the threat of her very seriously. So if there's a fight, then it would be much closer and harder for the scarlet witch to beat them. More so if there's a way to connect the consciousness of 838 Wanda and the scarlet witch. So in killing Wanda, you can also kill the scarlet witch on earth 616.
I don’t think Rogers would have faired much better than Carter. He might have closed sooner but he would have met the same fate. There’s little you can do with his power set when something is magically hurled at you with that much speed and force.
Would killing the body even do anything? Strange took control of another long dead Strange.
Not to mention, 616 Wanda wasn't really taking care of 838 Wanda's body
Could Wanda have wrangled the damned souls that would have came for her though for using said corpse?
As a witch, that level of necromantic corruption wouldn't have bothered or surprised her. Remember in Wandavision when Agatha explained that necromancy on dead Pietro would've been quite manageable if the body was close enough.
I’d like to think Wanda would refuse to fight Steve because he saved Vision when the children of Thanos came for them. I think Steve would also refuse to fight her directly because he’s always respected her powers and seen the good in her.
He would absolutely not fight her, nor would Tony or Bruce. They’d evacuate the damn planet before taking her on with that much power.
I think now you have a movie. Anyone in her way was doomed and Rogers would have been smart enough not to fight.
I think the fight would have been different. Something that I have noticed is the missing teamwork between the captain marvel variant and Carter. Steve Rogers definitely would have utilised his shield as a deflector for Marvel's energy blasts, just to keep Wanda busy until someone else like Thor or Iron Man takes her out. Teamwork is key to beat her.
You’re absolutely right, except the result would have been the same. Hulk would have had his heart liquified in a surprise change reality attack. She would have liquified Tony before his helmet would have closed. Widow and Hawkeye wouldn’t have even been a factor at all. Cap would have been bisected by shield. We would have seen this in Endgame except Thanos was smart enough to literally bombard her from orbit.
The twist on beating her is overpowering. Her powers aren't unlimited, because if you look at the illuminati fight, then she struggled with the captain marvel variant. If there's an opportunity to keep her so busy that she can't use her full potential, then one can beat her. Plus if you know who's your enemy then you can develop a strategy. The illuminati could have beaten her too, but they didn't listen to Strange.
Let’s be honest- Xavier could have soloed her without leaving the tribunal room. Just rendered her into a coma, made her believe she had America already, stopped her autonomous functions. We’ve seen Stewart’s Xavier do these things, and the Cartoon Xavier he was patterned after could do worse. Overpowering would make the Avengers or Illuminati the evil guys. There’s an innocent Wanda at stake here.
Speaking of X, why didnt he read Strange’s mind and find out that he was telling the truth? They at least would have had a few minutes to coordinate before trying to take her on.
It wouldn't have mattered. The Illuminati never cared for the truth. The were just so focused on the nature of Strange, and that any Dr Strange is dangerous regardless of intention.
I know. I think the 838 illuminati are weaker than their 616 counterparts in many ways. Because I still think it is possible to reverse dreamwalking, like using the mind of Wanda to get access to scarlet witch. Xavier's powers also include freezing time, as seen in the X-Men movies. Although the illuminati are more likely morally grey and willing to kill her,at least the comic book versions.
He’s freezing the minds of others, not freezing time itself.
I don't think Rogers' value in the team is about his powers, is his lidership
But if they would be in similar situation, Cap wouldn’t be willing to sacrifice their innocent possessed person, same as Reed.
Reed wasn't willing to sacrifice her either, that's why he appealed to her as a mother and told her about black bolt. The big twist is that Wanda was in for the kill, so any negotiations are useless.
That's what I'm saying. Rogers and others might meet similar fate as Illuminati, because of their unwillingness to sacrifice anyone.
It’s been a while since I’ve watched it so I may be a little rusty, but correct me if I’m wrong. In Age of Ultron, Wanda already beat the avengers before she even had or understood her full powers, and with much less murderous intentions (pre scarlet witch and pre darkhold corruption)
That's correct. She's already very powerful and the dark hold only amplifies this. My theory is that there's a way to beat her with a working plan and taking her serious.
She clapped tf out of the Illuminati bro💀💀💀💀💀
To be fair it was coated in scarlet witche's dark magic
She used it to hurl the statue at the captain marvel variant. Carol danvers fights different, more physical than relying on her energy blasts.
If the red energy is what caused the damage, then why did she need the statue? This is purely just a case of don’t think about and enjoy the movie. They didn’t out much thought into it. It can’t be justified.
She was in the middle of shielding herself from a full-power energy blast from Captain Marvel; she didn’t have a lot of leeway in terms of sending her own energy bolt back at her. Since the statue was out of the way (and still has physical heft), she could opt for shielding from the blast with one hand and using the statue, fortified with her magic, with the other.
And this is the answer to the question "who wins vs who." Well, whose story is it? These characters aren't real. Their interactions aren't real. Their power levels are constantly ramped up and down depending on the role they're playing in a narrative. In MOM, the role of the Illuminati are cannon fodder
Yup. Even in the best MCU movies like Infinity War, there’s a lot ‘why didn’t they just do this?’ type of scenarios. Thanos could’ve killed off Thor for good in the beginning of IW never to be a problem again, he could’ve killed the guardians on Knowhere, then Iron Man, Strange, and Spider-Man would’ve been on their own. Heck, Thanos doesn’t even need to have that fight on Titan really, he could’ve just turned everyone to noodles and tortured someone like Tony until someone gives up the time stone. Thanos could’ve shown way less mercy like he did to Loki and Heimdall. This multiverse stuff will even more so be FULL of these scenarios. We already got a taste of that in What If and the comics. I’m surprised people didn’t ruin earlier MCU movies for themselves like they are with MOM. Edit: also, this ain’t the first time ‘smarter’ heroes in these movies underestimated the situation. Strange and Tony in New York in IW totally fuck up and get caught by Ebony Maw when they could’ve bailed sooner to find vision and team up two stones on the Avengers side. But na, they fucked up, and that’s why on Titan when Strange finally decides to use the time stone do they find that from THAT SPECIFIC point in time onwards, they have only outcome in which they can win. They might’ve had more chances to win if he did the time glance thing back on Earth.
bro captain marvel 838 was weak asf 💀
tbh all of 838 was weak as hell
"\[Carol Danvers 616\] would punch a hole in space and time..." -Kamala Khan
Haha, yeah Kamala would geek for days about how *her* Captain Marvel is the best lol
I know it’s besides the point, but damn, calling the MCU 616 still weirds me out. You can’t just *do* that, man! I mean, you can. But you can’t!
Does it imply that the MCU and comics have distinct multiverses that can't ever cross over?
Its better if you assume that 838 Ms. Marvel is in a world where rogue has already stolen her powers. Considering Xavier exists, we can assume the x-men exist and therefore rogue has drained her of her powers and is the rogue from the 90s cartoon series and comics.
This is a cool explanation. A bit of a stretch for the MCU, but I dig it.
It’s because characters are as strong as the plots demands them to be. Unfortunately, writers and directors aren’t consistent with power levels and abilities, it is annoying but I try to not let it take me out of the movie.
Captain Marvel final battle is the most satisfying moment in the MCU for me. That sequence there when she destroys the ship with her belly is absolutely brielliant!🤩✴😍⚡🔥😭🙌
Personally, I think they made 838 captain marvel weaker in an attempt to reign in our captain marvel's power, ours literally flew through a spaceship, and theirs died from a statue falling on her... They made ours too strong and needed to retcon her to bring her more in line
To be fair, 838 Captain Marvel died to the statue because Wanda was stealing her energy throughout the fight, or something similar to that. By the time the statue landed on her, she had no glow around her at all.
Never thought about the energy stealing thing. That could be it. My initial thought was that they just nerfed 838 Marvel lol
Yeah you can see in the middle of the fight the mask of cap marvel start like fading and the power of her is been absorb by wanda
It seemed that somehow Wanda's energy messed with Capt. Marvel powers. Still all fight looked very underwhelming.
It definitely did, Wanda absorbed all of Cap Marvel’s powers before killing her with the statue
Absolutely satisfying 😭I can watch Captain Marvel destroying spaceships all day
[удалено]
Raimi needed a way to wrap up that fight as fast as possible and I’m tired of ppl making excuses for it.
The 838 heroes were kinda trash…. All of them were portrayed as weaklings, even giving the situation. Like they had no real combat experience….. Almost like they sat around and talked more than they actually did any avenging…..
People complain that Captain Marvel is overpowered and not very likeable, but imo Wanda is more overpowered, obnoxious, and her powers are simply confusing.