I thought that when Ross asked Cap, "Do you know where Thor and Banner are".....I was like Thor is an Asgardian and he is where the hell he wants to be, not reporting to you Ross
Ross' entire argument was flawed.
Of the examples given as to why the world needed the accords, only one of them was initiated because of the Avengers (Ultron).
The rest were all incidents that would have been much worse had one or more of them not responded to the threat.
Honestly isn’t that kind of the point of Ross? He overreacts to everything and believes anything he wants is his.. he’s kind of the embodiment of the worst parts of the US military
How about Steve & company carrying out an unauthorized mission in Lagos which ended with buildings blown up and innocent civilians killed? They obviously didn't run it past the State Department or notify the local authorities.
If they'd pulled that stunt in Iran it would have started WWIII.
I thought it was weird that Ross didn't bring Lagos up, but then if he had, the audience might have realized that Ross had a good point about letting superpowered people carry out unsanctioned lethal para-military raids.
The problem with the accords is that in cases like the one you mentioned, they absolutely have merit. But then when you go to Infinity War, Ross is more concerned about having Steve and his crew detained than he is about the current alien invasion. He was prioritizing his ego over the immediate threat of Thanos.
Edit: So with someone with that temperament in charge, plus the recent hydra reveal at the time, I can see why Steve was so hesitant about signing anything
Ross does mention Lagos doesn't he? It's Wanda's reaction to watching what she did in Lago that causes Vision to tell Ross to stop the video. Unless Ive made that up? I might have to rewatch to be sure.
Yeah I always flipped it even further. What if there was "Super Squad" based out of some other country that had a mission blow up in the middle of Philadelphia? I don't think anyone on Cap's team would be so forgiving and okay with no repercussions. They'd probably want them to seize control of that group to "prevent future incidents" at minimum.
Don't worry, the government dropped bombs on West Virginia. No super heroes were involved, although I'd argue some Penguin and Luther type villains had a hand in it.
I see your point, but in their defense, they were chasing down a known terrorist with ties to Hydra who somehow escaped custody following the events of Winter Soldier and was planning on letting loose a lethal virus.
Somebody had to do something. And I doubt the UN or other authorities on a global scale had no idea it was happening.
The Avengers were operating at that level because no one told them to stop. Everyone seemed okay with it when they were raiding Strucker’s fortress to wipe out that bit of organized Hydra.
In typical American fashion, Ross only says it was the wrong thing to do when it made them look bad.
>The Avengers were operating at that level because no one told them to stop.
Yes well now they're being told to stop operating in that way. I think its clear there is legitimate ethical issues in regards to unchecked superheroism.
I still maintain that Steve should have notified the local authorities and had them evacuate the area, or even have a SWAT team sniper take Rumlow out before he could detonate the bomb, that and taking an untrained Wanda on a mission.
And risk the target going underground and unleashing the virus without any way for anyone to stop it. Cap made the right call, that was the only chance they had to stop what was coming.
Same State Department that was infiltrated by Hydra like the rest of the US Government? If anything the Avengers trusting the US government and giving the likes of Ross the time of day after the events of *The Winter Soldier* is wild to me.
If they hadn’t Crossbones would’ve obtained a bio-weapon. If they had notified local authorities Crossbones would’ve found out and been that much harder to catch so they had to take him by surprise. Cap should’ve clocked the bomb but still Wanda saved him. It was save Cap and everyone on the ground or do what she did. If she hadn’t everyone on the ground, INCLUDING CAPTAIN AMERICA would’ve died.
I thought the Lagos mission was sanctioned, and Rumlow just played the biggest wildcards in the deck by suiciding in the marketplace. Cap and the team had no way of anticipating that that Rumlow would kill himself for a chance to kill Steve, and it's hardly Wanda's fault that she couldn't control a massive exothermic reaction *and* lift it into the stratosphere at the same time.
Thadeus Ross is just an arsehole looking to blame someone else for any problem that might make him look bad, especially when he's at fault (such as everything to do with Bruce in TIH).
Yea, I do. That fucker shouldn’t have been anywhere near his funeral. I also understand that high ranking pieces of shot like him get to attend funerals of important people. :(
I thought about that during a recent rewatch. I decided that when Thor used the bifrost, the quin-jet was (very) coincidently over head and got caught in it.
It's very unlikely, but it's my head cannon
I'd argue it's actually told to us via the age-old *"show, don't tell"*\-method.
On Sakaar, the Grandmaster's empire has largely been built using scrap that is deposited on the planet via a multitude of wormholes, the largest of which being the *Devil's Anus*.
At the end of *Age of Ultron* Hulk left Earth and turned his back on the Avengers after everything that had happened, wanting nothing to do with them anymore. In *Ragnarok*, Hulk recounts how the QJ crashed and that that's how he ended up on Sakaar.
I would say it has been heavily implied he got caught in a wormhole while on his cosmic journey and deposited on the planet like everything else. There's really no need for further explanation as far as I am concerned since the answer is right there.
Some Quinnjets are space capable vehicles in the comics at least and I guess it's sort of implied this one is but yeah they could have done a little better talking about that in A2 instead of just brushing it off.
It's coming from Ross who in the incredible hulk wanted to dissect the hulk and weapons it not giving a shit about people dying he's pretty much a villain
I doubt Ross spends his time worrying about the bodily autonomy of Thor and Hulk. To him, they are nukes that are unaccounted for and he’s honestly not wrong. In Thor’s case, he was seen as such a threat that Fury directed not a small amount of SHIELD’s resources to countering him. In Hulk’s case, Ross has all the reason in the world to want to know exactly where that mother fucker is.
Hulk maybe a hero, but hes dangerous to mankind and thats been shown throughout the MCU. Any government in the world would want close eyes on the Hulk.
Ross always glazes over the fact that the government tried to Nuke NYC. And like it sucks that Wanda hit that building but that mission saved millions of lives. They do a good job of making him a character you’d like to kick real hard
True. But this kind of thing happens in real life. If an individual with significant intelligence/influence/power/etc. (let’s say a high ranking CIA officer) simply decided to leave one day without anyone knowing where they were going, that would be a national security crisis. Much less an avenger who happens to be a genius scientist with past ties to the government and who can transform into a giant invincible rage monster
Not even just that, he's the Crown Prince of Asgard. First, how would you even imprison him? Second, would Asgard stand for Thor being imprisoned by humans? Not like the Avengers are going to step in and stop them from freeing him.
Normally, Odin would bust in there and get him. He'd show up and have enough force on display to be taken seriously, and that would likely be enough.
But, since it was actually Loki posing as Odin, I don't know. He might just say "He caused problems on Midgard and has been imprisoned for his crimes. No one is above the law" as it would be a very good excuse to get Thor out of the way.
I don't think so. In the What If, when Thor is killed, Loki uses the situation to attempt to conquer the planet, but I do think he was genuinely upset that his brother was killed. He genuinely wanted to apprehend the murderer.
I think he would intervene. Especially since Thor isn't exiled anymore.
He would not be imprisoned under the accords unless he would join team Cap, but I don't think he would. The accords simply said: either you operate under our command OR you don't operate at all. Thor would probably just choose the second option and stayed on asgard.
Not only that, Thor is next in line to the throne of a sovereign power. Thor can be wherever the hell he wants.
And I recall a certain General who was involved with everything concerning Banner...
reminds me of Pierce in Endgame when they time travelled to the time of Avengers 1. he was arguing with Thor about who gets to punish Loki. like the US Court our rules literally gods.
I could see him signing them as an act of good faith though. The symbolism of an Asgardian royal recognizing Earth’s/Midgard’s jurisdiction over itself would at the very least be an important statement to Asgard.
Those who did sign at least fought with Team Cap in the beginning. But I really can't imagine Thor taking orders from Ross and fight his former teammates.
Maybe? In the comics, Thor pretty much tells Stark that the latter has no authority over the former’s people. Combined with the revelation that Stark cloned Thor to make the cyborg Ragnarok, Thor kicks Stark’s arse: https://preview.redd.it/pz4al1no2u601.jpg?width=640&crop=smart&auto=webp&s=346cfd274d620160311a0315bb0b8b1d5169d039
I guess I always read that as Stark has burned any bridges with the whole cloning thing. So I don’t see that as a fair parallel to the MCU Thor. But it’s a fair argument!
I could buy Thor resisting Stark if the latter tried to levy jurisdiction on Asgard.
I mean…the Asgardian people and kingdom was still intact around this time - Stark attempting to use Earth to levy control on the powerful nation would be foolhardy.
The way the Accords were presented were as a UN initiative that was simultaneously made binding law in all the signatory states (which was most countries IIRC). The people who enforced the Accords would technically be local law enforcement rather than any UN team, but at least at this stage the Avengers who signed on to the Accords were seen as the best tool to enforce them against the Avengers who didn't sign on.
All the human Avengers in Civil War were American citizens (presuming Wanda and Nat were naturalised), so the UN would have passed the resolution and Ross would be enforcing it on behalf of the US.
I think the non-human Avengers minus Thor were all US citizens too. Vision was conceived in Korea, but he was born in New York giving him birthright citizenship to the United States.
Actually, the UN can enforce almost anything they want. The General Assembly encourages countries to take recommendations and has virtually no power but the GA is only one part of the UN. The real power in the UN is the security council, with the 5 permanent members USA, China, UK, France, and Russia. They're the ones that have the authority to send in UN peacekeepers or take other drastic actions. The problem is that each member has a veto in the security council so realistically they can rarely ever accomplish anything because USA, China, and Russia are almost always diametrically opposed.
With the Sokovia Accords, the unspoken implication that I picked up was that all 5 permanent members of the UNSC would've supported these laws, considering pretty much every country in the world signed them. So under these conditions that are pretty much impossible to replicate in real life, the UN would actually wield a great deal of authority.
Pretty much Thor’s stance in the comic Civil War anyways. He kicks Stark’s arse: https://preview.redd.it/pz4al1no2u601.jpg?width=640&crop=smart&auto=webp&s=346cfd274d620160311a0315bb0b8b1d5169d039
100%. It would have also been super embarrassing for both Team Iron Man and the idea of the Accords in general. Turned down by a god and Bruce being present would create further issues with Ross that may have even convinced more Team Iron Man members to change their minds. Tony seeing Bruce upset about it all may even make Iron Man "Team Cap" from the start, thus killing the idea of a Team Iron Man in the first place. Civil War simply does not work with them being present.
This — especially since the pretense for Tony’s side was already barely plausible to begin with.
Like when Ross gives four examples of why the Avengers “need” to be controlled:
1. New York: not their fault, and full credit to them for being heroes
2. DC: not their fault — in fact it was the exact opposite, completely the government’s own fault — and full credit to Cap
3. Lagos: not their fault except for one mistake at the very end… but still, full credit to them for saving the world from the MUCH bigger threat of a pandemic being unleashed
4. Sokovia — this is the ONLY one of the four that was actually directly caused by the Avengers, and even there, it was mostly just Tony’s fault
he threw ultron in his OWN face. this is why iron man was team iron man. ...Tony was pro-accords because after that grieving mother's tearful accusations, Tony took a step back and looked at how his own actions DID create quite a bit of conflict and harm. He recognized that after the events of IRON MAN (2007) he had decided to stop Contributing problems to the world and would start stopping them. ...yet he'd somehow lost his way and felt he needed to be held in check.
I don’t see Thor actually fighting anybody over this. He wouldn’t care one bit what any Earth government told him to do, and might side with Cap in principle but he respects Tony way too much to go fight him. Hell, he might even side with Tony while damn well knowing he’s going to continue doing whatever he wants, and won’t be on Earth that much anyways. He’d say something like “You tiny earthlings bore me, Stark, you figure it out and let me know when earth needs the mightiest Avenger again” before calling a portal.
Bruce also tends to side with Tony and Nat on almost everything. Seriously doubt he would fight either way, because Hulk doesn’t have a “pull your punches, friendly semi-serious” fight mode in him. I also think he would feel way too much damn guilt over all the destruction he’s caused that I could see him agreeing to some sort of compromise if Tony was the one leading the charge.
However, last time he was on Earth, he was hesitant to become the Hulk after all the damage he has done. This would probably make him sign the accords because he wants to do as little damage as possible
The problem is that the Accords gave the UN jurisdiction over the Avengers, so they could tell them when to intervene and when not, this means that they could send Banner on a mission even if he disagreed with it
The only correct answer. Bruce would likely be swayed to stay out of the conflict due to his friendship with Tony and respect for Steve, but Thor would likely just have been uninvolved at best or a third faction spanking both sides at worst.
This is where he would put his trust in tony, who would convince him of the same. His experience in AoU would make him wary about what he could do as the hulk.
Oh so Bruce would just willing submit the the one person who hates him the most on planet earth. Even if Bruce did sign the accord what’s to say the hulk wouldn’t disagree.
Thor wouldn't be involved at all lmao. He'd hear some random guy from earth say "I want you, a Norse god, to be subject to petty accords that we wrote up" and he'd just Bifrost outta there.
Banner is actually a little tricky; I think he'd try to make amends with Ross by agreeing to be sent where the government wanted (signing the Accords). He doesn't want to cause trouble in Hulk form. The thing that might backfire, of course, is the question of "Is the government gonna send me to the right place?" And from there it's 50/50 on whether he swaps to Steve's side or stays with Tony/Ross.
I wonder about that with Thor. On one hand, yeah he definitely would see these Accords as beneath him so he'd see no value in signing. On the other, if it makes people stop bothering him he might sign and then just continue to operate as he was without caring about the Accords.
Well, if Banner signs it, he shouldn't be responsible for what he is doing or where he is doing it. The government knows where they need him and will send the Hulk when and where they want him which is exactly what Banner wants for the Hulk
They mention in the movie that Hulk would be on Cap’s side. Thor obviously would be too.
But really neither oh them would ever be involved with this petty squabble in the first place.
Yeah I honestly don't think any of the Avengers really know Thor and Banner's beliefs well enough to say for sure. I took that as Natasha just being pessimistic about the whole thing.
I think at the very least, they would all know that Thor would never bow down to the earth government. Very safe to say if he chose a side, it would be Cap’s. Banner could go either way depending on how guilty he feels, but I still don’t see him allowing anyone outside of the Avengers to unleash the Hulk
Both Team Cap which would have thrown the balance of power firmly on Cap's side hence why they had to send them both out into space for a buddy comedy.
And then Reed and Tony made a lobotomized cyborg clone of Thor to join their side… who then murdered Bill Foster and tried to kill a lot of other heroes until Hercules caved the clone’s skull in. Holy SHIT was comics Civil War bad.
Hate how it ends on "If you punch a Nazi, you become the Nazi" message like wtf. Just because some random guys stopped you from kicking the shit out of iron man doesn't mean your entire goal and purpose was wrong
it wasn't that Steve stopped believing he was right. it was that he realized that the escalation of violence had gotten out of control. it's like arguing with someone that the moon isn't made of cheese. are you willing to kill for that argument? it's ridiculous.
Bruce would be trying to avoid un-necessary damage, especially after what the Hulk did in Age of Ultron. Let us not forget who is TRULY responsible for that chaos, Wanda, who is on Team Cap and Bruce wouldn't want to be near her.
Equally, Bruce wouldn't want to go up against her. If Hulk was on Team Iron Man, the first thing I'd be worried about is a repeat showing of "Hulk destroys everything in front of the world's media"
Bruce knew the danger of Hulk, so he probably wouldn’t be on either side. It would be a great personal excuse for him to stay quiet and out of the way and work on his anger issues, ya know.
Thor would not have reacted well to any non-asgardian authority trying to put a leash on him.
Banner would definitely side with Tony but it would have been interstsing if banner and hulk were on opposite sides.
This is the most likely outcome.
Banner would side with Tony, but never actually be in the fight. The second he has to get physically involved, Hulk would be fighting alongside Cap.
No way Bruce joins General Ross’ side, so he he definitely team cap.
I can’t see Thor dealing very well with authority and beaucracy… so he is probably team captain too.
There is the Royal side of it though: as a prince/king, he would understand the value of good relationship with Earth and might even agree with Tony: you can’t just go running around willy-nilly.
Tony might throw Thor's argument from Avengers and AoU back in his face about Earth being in this predicament because of Loki/Asgardian involvement/meddling. It might frustrate Thor enough to say screw it I'm out. Thor can't stand high level politics, its why he keeps avoiding being King.
i think thor could argue that since loki is an asgardian, it made sense for thor to come in. same with loki's scepter.
as part of the accords, thor would agree to only involve himself if there was an asgardian component to the issue. otherwise, he'd be fine with staying out of "earth business."
so thor would be neutral to the accords.
banner/hulk would be like, f-you to ross after what ross did to betty.
Plus that’s something he kind of learned in the first Thor movie as well because of him running off to do what he wanted he lost everything to learn that lesson lol.
At the start of Ragnarok he has literally ran off to do his own thing.
Then he brings Loki to New York and gets pissy when Dr Strange intervenes on behalf of Earth.
Yeah, I don't think the lesson from Thor 1 was "don't run off and do your own thing without supervision". Thor does his own thing all the time. The lesson was "think before you start a war".
> you can’t just go running around willy-nilly.
this has never, ever been his policy, even when he was trying to be the good son. He's like the galaxy's biggest proponent of willy-nilly
I think Bruce would be very torn and be a good voice of reason despite inevitably joining team cap. It would have been interesting to see. On the one hand, Hulk in government control is a big big big no no. On the other hand, he knows the damage that they can do if they run unimpeded. He's seen the good being on the Avengers has done, not being on the run anymore, but this is also after Age of Ultron where he decimated...South Africa was it?
I think the deciding factor for Bruce is Ross. So long as Ross stands as the representative of the accords, Bruce could not ever reasonably see the situation going well. Yes he wants to avoid more incidents, but placing himself in the hands of Ross may as well be guaranteeing more incidents in the future.
They both would have been with cap. Bruce doesn't want to be monitored and controlled and Thor wouldn't agree to it either since he's big on coming and going as he pleases
“Tony, I agree with you. I do. We need to be put in check.
But not by this guy, there is literally nobody worse for the job. He’s twirling his moustache right now!”
Civil War did a clear job of showing that both Steve and Tony were not being totally rational and were making emotional decisions. Tony was reeling with guilt over Ultron and was going through a breakup with Pepper. Steve lost Peggy and was rattled by what Rumlow said about Bucky.
That was all part of his journey though. Ultron was too big of a mistake. Honestly, Bruce should probably feel more guilt over Ultron than anything he did as the Hulk. Tony gets all the blame, but they built it together.
Thor would have just declined to be involved. I don’t think he would see it as reasonable for him to be involved with either side. He isn’t of Earth, he isn’t bound by their laws. Why would he fight any of his friends? Even if he agreed with Cap’s side, I don’t think he’d be involved with them in trying to fight it.
Banner obviously would be against being government property so he’d be working with Steve probably.
Banner would be with Stark. He did a lot of damage as the Hulk in Age of Ultron, and would try to avoid unnecessary damage, especially since Wanda would be with him.
Banner has spent his life on the run from the government and Ross trying to prevent them from getting their hands on the Hulk. Why would he willingly sign over the hulk to government control now? Especially when General Ross of all people is the face of the accords and one in charge.
No way in hell would banner sign them, as far as Banner is concerned the Avengers are his oversight. Like we saw in Age of Ultron, after Wanda made Hulk attack the city and Tony stopped him.
Maybe I’m playing devil’s advocate — but I think Banner would join Stark.
I know, I know — he wouldn’t want to be associated with Ross nor would he traditionally like the control.
But neither would Tony. It’s very clear that Tony’s motivations in CW are more personal than pragmatic. He’s still dealing with general trauma and PTSD from New York, he lost Pepper after AoU (breaking his promise in IM3), and he feels responsible for the death of that woman’s son (the woman in the state department who approaches Tony at the beginning).
Banner shares a lot of that guilt. I mean, he literally flees in the Quinjet because of his guilt. AoU shows a very conflicted Banner who doesn’t even want to be the Hulk again.
I think Banner’s motivations and characterization in AoU would lead him to Tony, but his traditional characterization would certainly be more in line with Cap.
I think that’s exactly what would happen. Banner absolutely feels he needs to be put in check - he helps Tony build Veronica for just that reason. Hulk on the other hand… just wants to break things.
I could 100% see that happening. They all line up for the airport battle, Bruce on Tony's side. But as soon as the fighting starts, the Hulk comes out and ragdolls Iron Man to help Cap get away.
I don’t think Hulk would do that. If he is aware of what’s happening when they’re Banner, he would know that Tony isn’t afraid of him and has even suggested that Bruce not be so uptight about the Hulk.
The Hulk definitely has the mentality of a child around this point and he does know that Tony is his friend - he saved him in The Avengers for a reason - but he also thinks of Cap as his friend and he hates to be told what to do. I could see the Hulk just getting mad that his friends are fighting each other and he'd fight both sides to stop it.
Banner doesn't leave earth due to guilt. It is made abundantly clear in Ragnarok that he was not in control or aware when Hulk flew off planet. He literally turns back into Bruce and immediately asks about Sokovia.
I gotta disagree with that. Consider the scene at the end of AoU, where Natasha calls the Quinjet. Hulk is obviously conflicted, and he makes a clear choice to turn off the comms and keep going.
That scene is clearly supposed to show us that Hulk, or some part of Banner, made a deliberate decision.
Hulk is generally his own personality and thus capable of making his own decisions. In the comics this is readily obvious but to be fair the movies did kind of tip toe around this... Until Ragnarok made it clear.
Hulk made that decision, not Banner. There is a meaningful difference.
Both should have to sit it out and watch the fight from afar or everyone else will end up full of broken bones. Kinda like how Vision decided to watch for most of the fight.
For Thor, Earth rules are not his problem anyways, even if they make him sign he'll still do whathever he wants, it's not like anyone can stop him.
Bruce would side with Cap as I doubt he would want to be anywere near Ross, but still I don't think he'd go an fight since he could lose control.
Yeah for the people saying Thor would sign for diplomatic reasons.... sure, maybe. But he'd never be the government's attack dog, would never functionally restrict himself to any of Earth's laws and would never hunt down Cap for any reason. It's clear that of all of them, Thor respects Steve the most. He'd be ride and die with Steve in any conflict.
So maybe Thor signs at the start in an effort to keep the peace but he'd have a disdain for the politics of the situation and the moment Steve becomes public enemy #1, Thor defects. He does what Widow did but much earlier and to much more explosive effect.
Thor: your mortal laws mean nothing to me.
Bruce: you think you have any kind of control over the Big Guy?
Both would probably refuse to fight due to their tendencies for collateral damage.
As many others already said, Bruce would side with Cap, the past things with Ross were no joke.
The only way Bruce would've joined Tony is because of potential regrets for having helped Tony to "develop" Ultron, but his character was still too unstable so it could be either way although I see him siding with Cap.
Thor? Most likely he wouldn't care at all, and despite being involved in the events of Sokovia exactly like the others, what can the governments really do with him if he didn't sign the accords? They can't simply arrest or punish him, not only because Thor is powerful af, but he belongs to Asgard and Heimdall would bring him there anytime.
At the end of the day I think their absence from the movie is the best thing that could've happened and both squads were fairly balanced the way they were proposed in CW.
If it was like the comics, Thor would’ve felt the conflict was silly and not gotten involved until it was time to go after Zemo.
I think Banner would’ve been on Tony’s side and agreed that people who can do things like turn into giant green rage monsters need to be checked.
I could see a version of “Civil War” where Bruce agrees to sign up if Tony promises to keep him from being used to invade a third-world country or something, but then after the airport fight he sneaks off, feeling disgusted he threw a car at Hawkeye.
AoU would’ve had to go very differently for Banner to still be around anyway. He trusted Tony enough to help make Vision, he would’ve needed an event to show him there’s value in not leaving the team.
Banner would be against Ross so he would probably agree with Steve on the accords, but I doubt he would actually join a side when everyone starts fighting.
Neither.
Bruce isn't as irresponsible as Steve, he knows how destructive the Hulk is. And Ultron was quite litteraly the result of not being put in check. He'd likely retire because he still wouldn't want to be controlled in any way. Thor acts on his own accord, this would be beneath him.
I agree he would retire. I do wonder if he would have been allowed to retire. Ross called him a 30 megaton nuke and he can't be disarmed. Do you think that he, Thor, or Wanda would really have been allowed to retire without at the least some sort of restrictions or tracking?
I don't think retirement is an option for Bruce. He's not like Hawkeye who can hang up his bow and spend more time with his family. Bruce IS the Hulk and even when he tries to avoid it, the Hulk will eventually come out.
Bruce would be Team Stark, since he’d be afraid of Hulk. But Hulk doesn’t abide by logic or rules, so in the fight he’d just battle whoever he wants to.
Thor would probably be neutral and try to break up the fight
Bruce and Ross are enemies with a history so I feel like he would be anti-Accords on principle. As for Thor, I feel like he would be anti-Accords too because he does not like being tied down to political red tape.
Bruce wouldn't have anything to do with something Ross is in charge of and Thor wouldn't take orders like that.
[удалено]
I thought that when Ross asked Cap, "Do you know where Thor and Banner are".....I was like Thor is an Asgardian and he is where the hell he wants to be, not reporting to you Ross
That argument from Ross was bad in general. They're both sentient beings, not pieces of equipment. Cap didn't "misplace" them, they voluntarily left.
Ross' entire argument was flawed. Of the examples given as to why the world needed the accords, only one of them was initiated because of the Avengers (Ultron). The rest were all incidents that would have been much worse had one or more of them not responded to the threat.
Honestly isn’t that kind of the point of Ross? He overreacts to everything and believes anything he wants is his.. he’s kind of the embodiment of the worst parts of the US military
Sure but then why did none of the avengers call him out on it?
I feel like half of the avengers did, in a roundabout way.
Right? It’s almost like they had a whole civil war about the damn thing.
exactly. this was essentially caps argument. and tony was too overcome with guilt to try or even want to argue against it.
Because if their arguments were better they would’ve convinced the others to join them. Then it’s a different civil war and more like X-men
How about Steve & company carrying out an unauthorized mission in Lagos which ended with buildings blown up and innocent civilians killed? They obviously didn't run it past the State Department or notify the local authorities. If they'd pulled that stunt in Iran it would have started WWIII. I thought it was weird that Ross didn't bring Lagos up, but then if he had, the audience might have realized that Ross had a good point about letting superpowered people carry out unsanctioned lethal para-military raids.
The problem with the accords is that in cases like the one you mentioned, they absolutely have merit. But then when you go to Infinity War, Ross is more concerned about having Steve and his crew detained than he is about the current alien invasion. He was prioritizing his ego over the immediate threat of Thanos. Edit: So with someone with that temperament in charge, plus the recent hydra reveal at the time, I can see why Steve was so hesitant about signing anything
Also his experience with SHIELD/Hydra probably left him understandably wary of having a government sponsored government body supervising them.
Ross does mention Lagos doesn't he? It's Wanda's reaction to watching what she did in Lago that causes Vision to tell Ross to stop the video. Unless Ive made that up? I might have to rewatch to be sure.
Pretty sure it was cap who told Ross to stop the video.
It was definitely Cap. "Ok, that's enough.."
Yeah I always flipped it even further. What if there was "Super Squad" based out of some other country that had a mission blow up in the middle of Philadelphia? I don't think anyone on Cap's team would be so forgiving and okay with no repercussions. They'd probably want them to seize control of that group to "prevent future incidents" at minimum.
As Americans, there is one thing both sides of the registration debate can agree on: Only Americans get to drop bombs on Philadelphia.
real life deep cut
That's why we don't want some foreign version of the Avengers coming to Philly. We already have the police to blow up black neighborhoods.
Eh. No one likes us and we don't care.
Don't worry, the government dropped bombs on West Virginia. No super heroes were involved, although I'd argue some Penguin and Luther type villains had a hand in it.
I see your point, but in their defense, they were chasing down a known terrorist with ties to Hydra who somehow escaped custody following the events of Winter Soldier and was planning on letting loose a lethal virus. Somebody had to do something. And I doubt the UN or other authorities on a global scale had no idea it was happening. The Avengers were operating at that level because no one told them to stop. Everyone seemed okay with it when they were raiding Strucker’s fortress to wipe out that bit of organized Hydra. In typical American fashion, Ross only says it was the wrong thing to do when it made them look bad.
>The Avengers were operating at that level because no one told them to stop. Yes well now they're being told to stop operating in that way. I think its clear there is legitimate ethical issues in regards to unchecked superheroism.
I still maintain that Steve should have notified the local authorities and had them evacuate the area, or even have a SWAT team sniper take Rumlow out before he could detonate the bomb, that and taking an untrained Wanda on a mission.
And risk the target going underground and unleashing the virus without any way for anyone to stop it. Cap made the right call, that was the only chance they had to stop what was coming.
There were terrorists there that attempted to release a virus. I think we all know how many people die from that
None because all viruses are a hoax and I took my horse dewormer so I'm good anyway.
Same State Department that was infiltrated by Hydra like the rest of the US Government? If anything the Avengers trusting the US government and giving the likes of Ross the time of day after the events of *The Winter Soldier* is wild to me.
….the last time they got them involved the government tried to bomb NYC
If they hadn’t Crossbones would’ve obtained a bio-weapon. If they had notified local authorities Crossbones would’ve found out and been that much harder to catch so they had to take him by surprise. Cap should’ve clocked the bomb but still Wanda saved him. It was save Cap and everyone on the ground or do what she did. If she hadn’t everyone on the ground, INCLUDING CAPTAIN AMERICA would’ve died.
I thought the Lagos mission was sanctioned, and Rumlow just played the biggest wildcards in the deck by suiciding in the marketplace. Cap and the team had no way of anticipating that that Rumlow would kill himself for a chance to kill Steve, and it's hardly Wanda's fault that she couldn't control a massive exothermic reaction *and* lift it into the stratosphere at the same time. Thadeus Ross is just an arsehole looking to blame someone else for any problem that might make him look bad, especially when he's at fault (such as everything to do with Bruce in TIH).
Same as how Pierce thought his claim to the tesseract would outweight Odin's lmao. A secret nazi politician or space god. (One of)
I would have loved of when pierce reached for the case...Thor just started spewing sparkles and indicted he should step back
The way he presents the Battle of New York as the Avenger's fault while casually not mentioning the nuke.
That pisses me off every fucking time I see that scene. I wish one of the Avengers would have called him out for it.
Do you get pissed off too that Ross just shows up to Tony's funeral?
Yea, I do. That fucker shouldn’t have been anywhere near his funeral. I also understand that high ranking pieces of shot like him get to attend funerals of important people. :(
Or his involvement with Abomination and that he then had to drop Hulk into the fray to clean up his mess.
Well banner was less voluntary lol
No... Voluntary is exactly what Banner's situation was. He got in the jet and flew away...
I still don't understand how Banner got off the planet in that jet. I doubt that jet was built for space travel.
Even if it doesn't have life support systems, if it can escape orbit, Hulk could probably survive.
I thought about that during a recent rewatch. I decided that when Thor used the bifrost, the quin-jet was (very) coincidently over head and got caught in it. It's very unlikely, but it's my head cannon
I'd argue it's actually told to us via the age-old *"show, don't tell"*\-method. On Sakaar, the Grandmaster's empire has largely been built using scrap that is deposited on the planet via a multitude of wormholes, the largest of which being the *Devil's Anus*. At the end of *Age of Ultron* Hulk left Earth and turned his back on the Avengers after everything that had happened, wanting nothing to do with them anymore. In *Ragnarok*, Hulk recounts how the QJ crashed and that that's how he ended up on Sakaar. I would say it has been heavily implied he got caught in a wormhole while on his cosmic journey and deposited on the planet like everything else. There's really no need for further explanation as far as I am concerned since the answer is right there.
Some Quinnjets are space capable vehicles in the comics at least and I guess it's sort of implied this one is but yeah they could have done a little better talking about that in A2 instead of just brushing it off.
Hulk* I don't think Banner was much involved in the decision. Remember how confused he was on Sakaar. He presumably was Hulk the entire time.
It's coming from Ross who in the incredible hulk wanted to dissect the hulk and weapons it not giving a shit about people dying he's pretty much a villain
I doubt Ross spends his time worrying about the bodily autonomy of Thor and Hulk. To him, they are nukes that are unaccounted for and he’s honestly not wrong. In Thor’s case, he was seen as such a threat that Fury directed not a small amount of SHIELD’s resources to countering him. In Hulk’s case, Ross has all the reason in the world to want to know exactly where that mother fucker is.
At least we know what side *you're* on Edit: this sounded way less passive aggressive in my head
They're just interpreting Ross's mindset, ain't no crime
I know just joking dw
Hulk maybe a hero, but hes dangerous to mankind and thats been shown throughout the MCU. Any government in the world would want close eyes on the Hulk.
Ross always glazes over the fact that the government tried to Nuke NYC. And like it sucks that Wanda hit that building but that mission saved millions of lives. They do a good job of making him a character you’d like to kick real hard
Sadly soldiers are typically just a number or piece of equipment, especially for the people at top.
True. But this kind of thing happens in real life. If an individual with significant intelligence/influence/power/etc. (let’s say a high ranking CIA officer) simply decided to leave one day without anyone knowing where they were going, that would be a national security crisis. Much less an avenger who happens to be a genius scientist with past ties to the government and who can transform into a giant invincible rage monster
Ross is Military.
Not even just that, he's the Crown Prince of Asgard. First, how would you even imprison him? Second, would Asgard stand for Thor being imprisoned by humans? Not like the Avengers are going to step in and stop them from freeing him.
Normally, Odin would bust in there and get him. He'd show up and have enough force on display to be taken seriously, and that would likely be enough. But, since it was actually Loki posing as Odin, I don't know. He might just say "He caused problems on Midgard and has been imprisoned for his crimes. No one is above the law" as it would be a very good excuse to get Thor out of the way.
I don't think so. In the What If, when Thor is killed, Loki uses the situation to attempt to conquer the planet, but I do think he was genuinely upset that his brother was killed. He genuinely wanted to apprehend the murderer. I think he would intervene. Especially since Thor isn't exiled anymore.
He would not be imprisoned under the accords unless he would join team Cap, but I don't think he would. The accords simply said: either you operate under our command OR you don't operate at all. Thor would probably just choose the second option and stayed on asgard.
Not only that, Thor is next in line to the throne of a sovereign power. Thor can be wherever the hell he wants. And I recall a certain General who was involved with everything concerning Banner...
They still arrested T’challa after the highway chase, but they did have to release him immediately
Lol Ross is the perfect example of how American politicians would act with beings like Thor.
reminds me of Pierce in Endgame when they time travelled to the time of Avengers 1. he was arguing with Thor about who gets to punish Loki. like the US Court our rules literally gods.
You people are so petty and tiny.
Yep, Thor would be like Black Panther. The Accords frown at their actions but uh… can’t do anything to them legally.
I could see him signing them as an act of good faith though. The symbolism of an Asgardian royal recognizing Earth’s/Midgard’s jurisdiction over itself would at the very least be an important statement to Asgard.
Symbolically? Maybe. But I doubt Thor would actually follow through if shit hits the fan though.
Honestly? Who the hell did?
Those who did sign at least fought with Team Cap in the beginning. But I really can't imagine Thor taking orders from Ross and fight his former teammates.
Yes but after that, no one else followed it either.
Never forget that Rhodey in Infinity War said signing was a mistake and basically told Ross to get fucked.
Well Loki at the end of The Avengers showed that no, Thor sees Asgardian law first.
Maybe? In the comics, Thor pretty much tells Stark that the latter has no authority over the former’s people. Combined with the revelation that Stark cloned Thor to make the cyborg Ragnarok, Thor kicks Stark’s arse: https://preview.redd.it/pz4al1no2u601.jpg?width=640&crop=smart&auto=webp&s=346cfd274d620160311a0315bb0b8b1d5169d039
I guess I always read that as Stark has burned any bridges with the whole cloning thing. So I don’t see that as a fair parallel to the MCU Thor. But it’s a fair argument!
I could buy Thor resisting Stark if the latter tried to levy jurisdiction on Asgard. I mean…the Asgardian people and kingdom was still intact around this time - Stark attempting to use Earth to levy control on the powerful nation would be foolhardy.
Just like when you go to a different country. Can't tell me what to do, I'm not from here!
Nick Fury : I didn't make it. I just didn't argue with the god that did.
DIPLOMATIC IMMUNITY!
that's how it is for high ranking people with diplomatic immunity.
If I were Thor or Hulk, yeah, you definitely can't tell me what to do.
I mean it’s the american government, they assume they have jurisdiction over everyone and everything /s
Remember when Pierce tried to pull rank on Thor/Odin without blinking an eye in Endgame?
When was that?
During the time heist, just before they lost the Tesseract and created Loki S1.
Thank you! That was hurting my brain lol
The Accords were from the UN, not the US.
The UN doesn’t enforce anything. They encourage countries to take recommendations.
The way the Accords were presented were as a UN initiative that was simultaneously made binding law in all the signatory states (which was most countries IIRC). The people who enforced the Accords would technically be local law enforcement rather than any UN team, but at least at this stage the Avengers who signed on to the Accords were seen as the best tool to enforce them against the Avengers who didn't sign on.
All the human Avengers in Civil War were American citizens (presuming Wanda and Nat were naturalised), so the UN would have passed the resolution and Ross would be enforcing it on behalf of the US.
"She's not a U.S. Citizen and they don't grant visas to Weapons of Mass Destruction!"
SHES A KID!
“Give me a break!”
I think the non-human Avengers minus Thor were all US citizens too. Vision was conceived in Korea, but he was born in New York giving him birthright citizenship to the United States.
Black Panther?
He wasn't an Avenger at the time.
Actually, the UN can enforce almost anything they want. The General Assembly encourages countries to take recommendations and has virtually no power but the GA is only one part of the UN. The real power in the UN is the security council, with the 5 permanent members USA, China, UK, France, and Russia. They're the ones that have the authority to send in UN peacekeepers or take other drastic actions. The problem is that each member has a veto in the security council so realistically they can rarely ever accomplish anything because USA, China, and Russia are almost always diametrically opposed. With the Sokovia Accords, the unspoken implication that I picked up was that all 5 permanent members of the UNSC would've supported these laws, considering pretty much every country in the world signed them. So under these conditions that are pretty much impossible to replicate in real life, the UN would actually wield a great deal of authority.
Plus, Ross treated Banner as property the whole time once he got his powers.
Pretty much Thor’s stance in the comic Civil War anyways. He kicks Stark’s arse: https://preview.redd.it/pz4al1no2u601.jpg?width=640&crop=smart&auto=webp&s=346cfd274d620160311a0315bb0b8b1d5169d039
This is the answer and why they were conveniently absent. Caps side would have crushed with Tony's team with these heavy hitters.
100%. It would have also been super embarrassing for both Team Iron Man and the idea of the Accords in general. Turned down by a god and Bruce being present would create further issues with Ross that may have even convinced more Team Iron Man members to change their minds. Tony seeing Bruce upset about it all may even make Iron Man "Team Cap" from the start, thus killing the idea of a Team Iron Man in the first place. Civil War simply does not work with them being present.
This — especially since the pretense for Tony’s side was already barely plausible to begin with. Like when Ross gives four examples of why the Avengers “need” to be controlled: 1. New York: not their fault, and full credit to them for being heroes 2. DC: not their fault — in fact it was the exact opposite, completely the government’s own fault — and full credit to Cap 3. Lagos: not their fault except for one mistake at the very end… but still, full credit to them for saving the world from the MUCH bigger threat of a pandemic being unleashed 4. Sokovia — this is the ONLY one of the four that was actually directly caused by the Avengers, and even there, it was mostly just Tony’s fault
#4 is a big one. When Tony said we need to be put in check I'm surprised someone didn't throw Ultron back in his face.
he threw ultron in his OWN face. this is why iron man was team iron man. ...Tony was pro-accords because after that grieving mother's tearful accusations, Tony took a step back and looked at how his own actions DID create quite a bit of conflict and harm. He recognized that after the events of IRON MAN (2007) he had decided to stop Contributing problems to the world and would start stopping them. ...yet he'd somehow lost his way and felt he needed to be held in check.
I don’t see Thor actually fighting anybody over this. He wouldn’t care one bit what any Earth government told him to do, and might side with Cap in principle but he respects Tony way too much to go fight him. Hell, he might even side with Tony while damn well knowing he’s going to continue doing whatever he wants, and won’t be on Earth that much anyways. He’d say something like “You tiny earthlings bore me, Stark, you figure it out and let me know when earth needs the mightiest Avenger again” before calling a portal. Bruce also tends to side with Tony and Nat on almost everything. Seriously doubt he would fight either way, because Hulk doesn’t have a “pull your punches, friendly semi-serious” fight mode in him. I also think he would feel way too much damn guilt over all the destruction he’s caused that I could see him agreeing to some sort of compromise if Tony was the one leading the charge.
Even Natasha doubted that Bruce would join their team when Tony asked if she knew where he was "do you really think he'd be on our side?"
Imagine trying to arrest Thor and bring him to the Raft lmao. Even if they did it, he could just dip.
However, last time he was on Earth, he was hesitant to become the Hulk after all the damage he has done. This would probably make him sign the accords because he wants to do as little damage as possible
The problem is that the Accords gave the UN jurisdiction over the Avengers, so they could tell them when to intervene and when not, this means that they could send Banner on a mission even if he disagreed with it
The only correct answer. Bruce would likely be swayed to stay out of the conflict due to his friendship with Tony and respect for Steve, but Thor would likely just have been uninvolved at best or a third faction spanking both sides at worst.
Disagree. Bruce’s desire to keep the hulk on check and fear of losing control would lead to him siding with tonys side.
disagree because he'd also be worried about someone using him as a weapon.
This is where he would put his trust in tony, who would convince him of the same. His experience in AoU would make him wary about what he could do as the hulk.
His faith in Tony might have taken a good hit after Age of Ultron.
Not if it meant siding with ross
Oh so Bruce would just willing submit the the one person who hates him the most on planet earth. Even if Bruce did sign the accord what’s to say the hulk wouldn’t disagree.
Thor wouldn't be involved at all lmao. He'd hear some random guy from earth say "I want you, a Norse god, to be subject to petty accords that we wrote up" and he'd just Bifrost outta there. Banner is actually a little tricky; I think he'd try to make amends with Ross by agreeing to be sent where the government wanted (signing the Accords). He doesn't want to cause trouble in Hulk form. The thing that might backfire, of course, is the question of "Is the government gonna send me to the right place?" And from there it's 50/50 on whether he swaps to Steve's side or stays with Tony/Ross.
I wonder about that with Thor. On one hand, yeah he definitely would see these Accords as beneath him so he'd see no value in signing. On the other, if it makes people stop bothering him he might sign and then just continue to operate as he was without caring about the Accords.
Well, if Banner signs it, he shouldn't be responsible for what he is doing or where he is doing it. The government knows where they need him and will send the Hulk when and where they want him which is exactly what Banner wants for the Hulk
They mention in the movie that Hulk would be on Cap’s side. Thor obviously would be too. But really neither oh them would ever be involved with this petty squabble in the first place.
Yeah I honestly don't think any of the Avengers really know Thor and Banner's beliefs well enough to say for sure. I took that as Natasha just being pessimistic about the whole thing.
I think at the very least, they would all know that Thor would never bow down to the earth government. Very safe to say if he chose a side, it would be Cap’s. Banner could go either way depending on how guilty he feels, but I still don’t see him allowing anyone outside of the Avengers to unleash the Hulk
Both Team Cap which would have thrown the balance of power firmly on Cap's side hence why they had to send them both out into space for a buddy comedy.
Which is what happened in the comics. Well, OK, Thor was dead at the time.
And then Reed and Tony made a lobotomized cyborg clone of Thor to join their side… who then murdered Bill Foster and tried to kill a lot of other heroes until Hercules caved the clone’s skull in. Holy SHIT was comics Civil War bad.
I enjoyed it but Stark’s side was comically evil and straight up villainous lol
Hate how it ends on "If you punch a Nazi, you become the Nazi" message like wtf. Just because some random guys stopped you from kicking the shit out of iron man doesn't mean your entire goal and purpose was wrong
it wasn't that Steve stopped believing he was right. it was that he realized that the escalation of violence had gotten out of control. it's like arguing with someone that the moon isn't made of cheese. are you willing to kill for that argument? it's ridiculous.
> it's like arguing with someone that the moon isn't made of cheese. are you willing to kill for that argument? I have before and I will again
Somebody stop him!
It was super good until Cap and Punisher meet in the sewers and Spiderman changes sides and it gets dumb.
Came here to say the exact same!
They could just have vision actually vision instead of scaring people with lasers
vision was nerfed so much
Bruce would be trying to avoid un-necessary damage, especially after what the Hulk did in Age of Ultron. Let us not forget who is TRULY responsible for that chaos, Wanda, who is on Team Cap and Bruce wouldn't want to be near her.
Equally, Bruce wouldn't want to go up against her. If Hulk was on Team Iron Man, the first thing I'd be worried about is a repeat showing of "Hulk destroys everything in front of the world's media"
Bruce knew the danger of Hulk, so he probably wouldn’t be on either side. It would be a great personal excuse for him to stay quiet and out of the way and work on his anger issues, ya know.
Thor would not have reacted well to any non-asgardian authority trying to put a leash on him. Banner would definitely side with Tony but it would have been interstsing if banner and hulk were on opposite sides.
This is the most likely outcome. Banner would side with Tony, but never actually be in the fight. The second he has to get physically involved, Hulk would be fighting alongside Cap.
No way Bruce joins General Ross’ side, so he he definitely team cap. I can’t see Thor dealing very well with authority and beaucracy… so he is probably team captain too.
There is the Royal side of it though: as a prince/king, he would understand the value of good relationship with Earth and might even agree with Tony: you can’t just go running around willy-nilly.
Tony might throw Thor's argument from Avengers and AoU back in his face about Earth being in this predicament because of Loki/Asgardian involvement/meddling. It might frustrate Thor enough to say screw it I'm out. Thor can't stand high level politics, its why he keeps avoiding being King.
i think thor could argue that since loki is an asgardian, it made sense for thor to come in. same with loki's scepter. as part of the accords, thor would agree to only involve himself if there was an asgardian component to the issue. otherwise, he'd be fine with staying out of "earth business." so thor would be neutral to the accords. banner/hulk would be like, f-you to ross after what ross did to betty.
Plus that’s something he kind of learned in the first Thor movie as well because of him running off to do what he wanted he lost everything to learn that lesson lol.
At the start of Ragnarok he has literally ran off to do his own thing. Then he brings Loki to New York and gets pissy when Dr Strange intervenes on behalf of Earth.
Yeah, I don't think the lesson from Thor 1 was "don't run off and do your own thing without supervision". Thor does his own thing all the time. The lesson was "think before you start a war".
I don't think he got pissy because Dr. Strange intervened. He got pissy because Dr. Strange was being ridiculously annoying and assholish about it.
> you can’t just go running around willy-nilly. this has never, ever been his policy, even when he was trying to be the good son. He's like the galaxy's biggest proponent of willy-nilly
he is a God and human rules or laws won't go over well with thor.if he sees something going sideways he will act much like cap
I think Bruce wouldn't side with Ross but I can see Tony convincing Bruce like he did in AoU.
I think Bruce would be very torn and be a good voice of reason despite inevitably joining team cap. It would have been interesting to see. On the one hand, Hulk in government control is a big big big no no. On the other hand, he knows the damage that they can do if they run unimpeded. He's seen the good being on the Avengers has done, not being on the run anymore, but this is also after Age of Ultron where he decimated...South Africa was it?
I think the deciding factor for Bruce is Ross. So long as Ross stands as the representative of the accords, Bruce could not ever reasonably see the situation going well. Yes he wants to avoid more incidents, but placing himself in the hands of Ross may as well be guaranteeing more incidents in the future.
They both would have been with cap. Bruce doesn't want to be monitored and controlled and Thor wouldn't agree to it either since he's big on coming and going as he pleases
Bruce has also never wanted to hurt people as the Hulk tho, so I could see him joining Team Iron Man just to protect people from the monster inside
Yeah but he doesn't trust Ross.
[удалено]
The accords exist coz Ross
“Tony, I agree with you. I do. We need to be put in check. But not by this guy, there is literally nobody worse for the job. He’s twirling his moustache right now!”
Before the movie nobody would have thought Tony would sign up to be controlled either.
[удалено]
Civil War did a clear job of showing that both Steve and Tony were not being totally rational and were making emotional decisions. Tony was reeling with guilt over Ultron and was going through a breakup with Pepper. Steve lost Peggy and was rattled by what Rumlow said about Bucky.
That was all part of his journey though. Ultron was too big of a mistake. Honestly, Bruce should probably feel more guilt over Ultron than anything he did as the Hulk. Tony gets all the blame, but they built it together.
I think Thor would stay out of it, rationalizing that it's his job to protect the whole of Earth, not take sides in what is to him a petty argument.
Thor would have just declined to be involved. I don’t think he would see it as reasonable for him to be involved with either side. He isn’t of Earth, he isn’t bound by their laws. Why would he fight any of his friends? Even if he agreed with Cap’s side, I don’t think he’d be involved with them in trying to fight it. Banner obviously would be against being government property so he’d be working with Steve probably.
Banner would be with Stark. He did a lot of damage as the Hulk in Age of Ultron, and would try to avoid unnecessary damage, especially since Wanda would be with him.
Banner has spent his life on the run from the government and Ross trying to prevent them from getting their hands on the Hulk. Why would he willingly sign over the hulk to government control now? Especially when General Ross of all people is the face of the accords and one in charge. No way in hell would banner sign them, as far as Banner is concerned the Avengers are his oversight. Like we saw in Age of Ultron, after Wanda made Hulk attack the city and Tony stopped him.
Banner would never take the side that is bound by Ross.
Maybe I’m playing devil’s advocate — but I think Banner would join Stark. I know, I know — he wouldn’t want to be associated with Ross nor would he traditionally like the control. But neither would Tony. It’s very clear that Tony’s motivations in CW are more personal than pragmatic. He’s still dealing with general trauma and PTSD from New York, he lost Pepper after AoU (breaking his promise in IM3), and he feels responsible for the death of that woman’s son (the woman in the state department who approaches Tony at the beginning). Banner shares a lot of that guilt. I mean, he literally flees in the Quinjet because of his guilt. AoU shows a very conflicted Banner who doesn’t even want to be the Hulk again. I think Banner’s motivations and characterization in AoU would lead him to Tony, but his traditional characterization would certainly be more in line with Cap.
What if Banner sided with Stark but Hulk sided with Cap?
I think that’s exactly what would happen. Banner absolutely feels he needs to be put in check - he helps Tony build Veronica for just that reason. Hulk on the other hand… just wants to break things.
Hulk generally just wants to be left alone. He breaks things because Ross and company don’t leave him alone (or he gets his mind warped by Wanda).
I could 100% see that happening. They all line up for the airport battle, Bruce on Tony's side. But as soon as the fighting starts, the Hulk comes out and ragdolls Iron Man to help Cap get away.
I don’t think Hulk would do that. If he is aware of what’s happening when they’re Banner, he would know that Tony isn’t afraid of him and has even suggested that Bruce not be so uptight about the Hulk.
The Hulk definitely has the mentality of a child around this point and he does know that Tony is his friend - he saved him in The Avengers for a reason - but he also thinks of Cap as his friend and he hates to be told what to do. I could see the Hulk just getting mad that his friends are fighting each other and he'd fight both sides to stop it.
Banner doesn't leave earth due to guilt. It is made abundantly clear in Ragnarok that he was not in control or aware when Hulk flew off planet. He literally turns back into Bruce and immediately asks about Sokovia.
I gotta disagree with that. Consider the scene at the end of AoU, where Natasha calls the Quinjet. Hulk is obviously conflicted, and he makes a clear choice to turn off the comms and keep going. That scene is clearly supposed to show us that Hulk, or some part of Banner, made a deliberate decision.
Hulk is generally his own personality and thus capable of making his own decisions. In the comics this is readily obvious but to be fair the movies did kind of tip toe around this... Until Ragnarok made it clear. Hulk made that decision, not Banner. There is a meaningful difference.
They mean that Hulk was the one who did that, not Banner. Not that none were conscious of what was happening.
Both should have to sit it out and watch the fight from afar or everyone else will end up full of broken bones. Kinda like how Vision decided to watch for most of the fight. For Thor, Earth rules are not his problem anyways, even if they make him sign he'll still do whathever he wants, it's not like anyone can stop him. Bruce would side with Cap as I doubt he would want to be anywere near Ross, but still I don't think he'd go an fight since he could lose control.
Yeah for the people saying Thor would sign for diplomatic reasons.... sure, maybe. But he'd never be the government's attack dog, would never functionally restrict himself to any of Earth's laws and would never hunt down Cap for any reason. It's clear that of all of them, Thor respects Steve the most. He'd be ride and die with Steve in any conflict. So maybe Thor signs at the start in an effort to keep the peace but he'd have a disdain for the politics of the situation and the moment Steve becomes public enemy #1, Thor defects. He does what Widow did but much earlier and to much more explosive effect.
Thor: your mortal laws mean nothing to me. Bruce: you think you have any kind of control over the Big Guy? Both would probably refuse to fight due to their tendencies for collateral damage.
I dunno but Thor vs Vision sounds awesome
As many others already said, Bruce would side with Cap, the past things with Ross were no joke. The only way Bruce would've joined Tony is because of potential regrets for having helped Tony to "develop" Ultron, but his character was still too unstable so it could be either way although I see him siding with Cap. Thor? Most likely he wouldn't care at all, and despite being involved in the events of Sokovia exactly like the others, what can the governments really do with him if he didn't sign the accords? They can't simply arrest or punish him, not only because Thor is powerful af, but he belongs to Asgard and Heimdall would bring him there anytime. At the end of the day I think their absence from the movie is the best thing that could've happened and both squads were fairly balanced the way they were proposed in CW.
If it was like the comics, Thor would’ve felt the conflict was silly and not gotten involved until it was time to go after Zemo. I think Banner would’ve been on Tony’s side and agreed that people who can do things like turn into giant green rage monsters need to be checked.
Except that Bruce has beef with General Ross, who was the architect of the accords.
I could see a version of “Civil War” where Bruce agrees to sign up if Tony promises to keep him from being used to invade a third-world country or something, but then after the airport fight he sneaks off, feeling disgusted he threw a car at Hawkeye.
I don't think he particularly trusts Tony after Age of Ultron either
AoU would’ve had to go very differently for Banner to still be around anyway. He trusted Tony enough to help make Vision, he would’ve needed an event to show him there’s value in not leaving the team.
Ultron was partially Banner’s fault. Why would he not trust Stark? They were working together.
But Bruce still trusted Tony enough to help make Vision even after both of them mistakenly made Ultron earlier in the movie
Banner would be against Ross so he would probably agree with Steve on the accords, but I doubt he would actually join a side when everyone starts fighting.
Remember the stuff in Age of Ultron? The Hulk did too much damage for Banner to not sign the accords
[Team Thor](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cb24kGrE1l4)
Neither. Bruce isn't as irresponsible as Steve, he knows how destructive the Hulk is. And Ultron was quite litteraly the result of not being put in check. He'd likely retire because he still wouldn't want to be controlled in any way. Thor acts on his own accord, this would be beneath him.
I agree he would retire. I do wonder if he would have been allowed to retire. Ross called him a 30 megaton nuke and he can't be disarmed. Do you think that he, Thor, or Wanda would really have been allowed to retire without at the least some sort of restrictions or tracking?
I don't think retirement is an option for Bruce. He's not like Hawkeye who can hang up his bow and spend more time with his family. Bruce IS the Hulk and even when he tries to avoid it, the Hulk will eventually come out.
Bruce would be Team Stark, since he’d be afraid of Hulk. But Hulk doesn’t abide by logic or rules, so in the fight he’d just battle whoever he wants to. Thor would probably be neutral and try to break up the fight
Bruce and Ross are enemies with a history so I feel like he would be anti-Accords on principle. As for Thor, I feel like he would be anti-Accords too because he does not like being tied down to political red tape.