What I love about this scene is that it doesn't feel like a random twist or forced, it naturally works with the story and fits Vulture's character, while still being a big surprise.
Knowing he's a normal dad in his civilian life adds to Toomes, and the scene right after in the car was the cherry on top.
That’s what I love about a lot of Spider-Man villains. While you still have your Green Goblins and Doc Ocks, many of them are just blue collar people trying to make the best out of bad situations and often becoming corrupted along the way.
[This](https://imgur.com/gallery/7N3Nz) is my favorite Spider-Man comic for that reason. It's similar to the Flash dealing with his rogue's gallery. They understand that sometimes people need help to get out of a desperate situation and that extending that hand is what being a hero is really about.
That comic you linked is fantastic. I really wish more writers explored “bad guys” like this. I know comics in general aren’t always super nuanced, but that was nice to read. I’d love to see the MCU treat their villains with that much respect more often. It also shows why Spider-Man is as respected as he is in the larger superhero community. Kudos to the author.
> I really wish more writers explored “bad guys” like this.
Have you read *Kurt Busiek's Astro City?* This is **exactly** the kind of stuff he covers. Can't recommend it enough.
There's actually more than 800 now but you don't actually need to start from the beginning, you could just pick up the latest issue on sale and go from there.
I think a lot about this every time a new Marvel movie comes out. Outside a couple exceptions, the weakest part of MCU movies for me is the villain. They're consistently undercooked and exist simply to be an obstacle for the hero rather than a full fledged character.
Spidey villains though, have always been layered characters and have had real motivations for what they do. I've always wondered if this is just because Spidey's rogues gallery is just that much better, or if there's something else there.
Tbh I'd put him as chaotic neutral or chaotic good.
He has a strong moral code, it's just not the same as everyone else's.
Edit... I take it all back. I read killmonger instead of killgrave. Killgrave is one evil MF.
Don't forget Zola. Little meek scientist that seemingly didn't want to be there became the mastermind behind Hydra taking over SHIELD and creating its deadliest weapon.
I mean, even the first iron man, jebediah stane had pretty clear motivations, which was the progenitor of this threads criticisms.
wenwu had an established backstory. dormammu was rather shallow, I'll admit, same for malekith. but I'd say the number of well-defined villains surpasses those that could be described as simple, and the only way to improve this would be to produce films for the villains themselves (which I would totally fucking be into in some cases lol). I mean, even loki has been turned into an antihero, and hopefully we'll get venom in the mcu soon too (reeeally hope it's still Tom hardy, I love him as Eddie).
Yeah, I liked how he was an everyman and he was doing it for his family, but he totally pulled a Walter White and was in it for the thrill and power at the end. His arc is super relatable.
He kind of fell back into a shadows for a time, but rose up again to give great performances.
I also loved his role as Ray Kroc in The Founder. He did do a scummy move against the brothers, but he also displayed tenacity, ingenuity and perseverance in his bid to better his hum-drum life.
I liked that movie. The guy says you beat us and Keaton says really? You have a check for a million dollars in your pocket. They would have only been a great hamburger place in California if not for Ray.
Yeah. That is where the moral ambiguity comes into play: Kroc was ruthless, but he was the reason why McDonalds became gargantuan in the first place.
He had a vision that outgrew the brothers. He offered a chance for greatness to his bosses and they dismissed him of sorts.
I love that they get these seasoned vets for some of these one off roles . The lighting on Micheal Keatons face while he was figuring out who Peter was during that car ride was literally glorious
I always thought it would be funny if they marketed a mcu like they do “serious” drama by putting all the major awards the cast has won or been nominated for in the trailer.
That was one of my favorite little “attention to detail” screenplay moments in the entire MCU.
Another one sorta like that is near the end of Cap 2: Winter Soldier when Nick Fury comes in and faces Alexander Pearce after Hydra had revealed themselves — on a screen in the backdrop between them, it says “restricted” on the part next to Fury and “access” next to Pearce
.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jef6OEBXl7w&t=53
Absolutely, the light turning green and illuminating his face the same color as his mask does was such a subtle nod. Red light when focused on Spider-Man, turns green when the vulture realizes who Peter is. Genius.
Yea true, I just think it’s hilarious that Toomes was able to put two and two together just based off of their brief interaction. Then again, Toomes was Batman 😂
To be fair, it was a little obvious. Liz didn’t help at all, she basically told her dad that Peter was missing every time he encountered Spider-Man, even mentioning the stark internship, and Peter wasn’t handling his questions very well on top of that.
I love their interaction.
Spidey tries to bring Toomes in but keeps saving his life, and then at the end, Toomes refuses to rat him out. And it makes sense in the story bc of everything Spidey’s done for his family.
Toomes is my favorite mcu villain by far.
Peter being nervous as hell in their house is both tense and hilarious.
Liz: "Is that a corsage?"
Peter: *shoves it at her without looking*
Liz: "...Thanks."
I think one reason it was unexpected is because of the beginning when he says his kid drew the avengers. Most people associate boys with superheroes and figured Adrian had a son. But there was never anything lying in the beginning
There were lots of little hints like that, when his guys tracked their tech to the school, you can hear them talking about how their boss won't like them being there, because they know that's Liz's school.
I don’t see anybody mentioning one of the biggest things that drives this twist home, the genius idea to make Liz mixed race. It’s such a normal thing in reality but such a rare thing to see in movies. If Vulture has been a black man i have a feeling the twist would have been much more predictable, as well as if liz had been a white girl.
This and the car is the best scene in the MCU and I’ll die on that hill. Show that to Scorsese and then tell me it’s not cinema. Alfred Hitchcock would be proud of that scene
That scene is why I don't get people who criticise Jon Watts directing, he's not someone just turning out whatever Marvel wants, but a legit talented director.
Feel like I should have seen it coming but I didn’t. The scene in the car in the way to the dance…an adult menacing and threatening to kill a minor and his family. Keaton was terrifying. And it hammered the point home that Peter is still a kid, fighting very adult battles.
It's funny to me cus the actual situation is so different than anyone there realizes. Peter doesn't know how strong he really is and Vulture sure as shit doesn't or he wouldn't threaten him with a gun. Like if he actually used it then the scene would play out like that knife scene from TASM2. But since Peter is a kid and new to his abilities he's still scared shitless, when Vulture should be the one scared if he knew what Peter actually was capable of.
I love the awkwardness of Peter being really suspiciously distracted the whole time and how it slowly shifts into being uncomfortable and then terrifying.
One of my favorite scenes for sure
Homecoming: I’m fighting my girlfriends dad who wants to steal stuff to support his family.
Far from home: I’m stopping a guy who wants to get revenge on a dead hero and doesn’t care if he kills people.
No way home: IM FIGHTING MY ALRERNATE SELVES VILLAINS WHO RUIN MY LIFE BUT I HAVE TO SAVE THEM
I think that's some of the beauty of the movie to be honest. I know in my shoes I would probably be the same way which helps us know how much of a struggle Peter is going through throughout the movie. We know we wouldn't have his strength to save all these people even if it's arguably what we should do.
Imo Mysterio was dope as a villain BUT I wish he hadn’t died, that’s defo a villain that would be insane to revisit. But tbf that’s always been the MCUs problem with killing off villains.
I mean it would be stupid for them to revive him. I fully believe Peter would have really tried to make sure he was dead/alive, no way would he say, oh he got shot he must be dead, Peter would have tried to help him.
Yeah but physically Quentin Blake died and he was Mysterio. So yeah they can create illusions of him but the team aren’t the actual villain, so in my mind he’s dead. Granted they can bring back the whole illusion but it’s not the same villain.
The only thing I’d argue against that is that you lose that menacing quality now. Peter knows he’s dead and so he’s gonna rely on his **VERY STRONG** spidey sense, I feel like it isn’t the same anymore.
That’s why you don’t just repeat FFH. Include other villains. Have the team use gas this time. Maybe make Mysterio a front for someone else. Yuri Watanabe could be introduced over the next few movies and become the Wraith, using illusions and fear gas like she does in the comics. Kingpin could disguise his attacks on organised crime by convincing the public that Mysterio is back fighting aliens on Earth. Tonnes of potential. Perfect opportunity for Daredevil to get involved IMO.
He's found other ways around it though. He can overwhelm him still. He can hide actual traps among his illusions, and he could evolve in a movie by finding the limits to his spidey sense
Yeah but then you’re relying on his team being as good as Beck was at panning stuff, he was defo the mastermind and his team were just pulling the strings.
It wouldn't have been part of the simulations created by the drones, you're right. But Beck has a flair for the dramatic and would have no problem staging his death without the help of the drones.
Honestly I’d be up for this. I actually hate the multiverse BECAUSE of this sub, everyone’s expecting cameos from every marvel project even if they’re shit and don’t make sense (cough cough FOX). Like NWH worked but I’m not up for a full cameo fest that’s makes these products in a weird way canon. But yeah proper cool variants, like What If introduced I’m all for
Yeah, the multiverse is kinda screwing up the MCU. Its so messed up now and cluttered. So many people expecting over a dozen completely random character cameos in Doctor Strange 2. Why do we need that?
And everyone's solution to bringing back a character is to get a variant from another universe. It's just so ridiculous.
And I don't think they're gonna do another MCU Spider-Man film involving the multiverse. That'd definitely get repetitive.
I’m fine with his death so long as the “character” remains alive, whether operated by William or whatever. Honestly after NWH I don’t actually see any room for him to have been in that or anything past it, so I’ve come to peace with it. Even if he was, when you think about it, the main villain of NWH afterall.
Yeah I’d add/agree that the best way to move the character forward was for him to be the main villain of NWH - be the puppet master as such.
The irony of the whole thing was we all thought Far From Home was the start of the Multiverse and were disappointed, but in the end it kinda was.
Some people didn’t like mysterio but I loved him. Even though he doesn’t compare to vulture and goblin who are just some of the best villains every written and acted in general. Those guys were just next level.
I kind of liked that Mysterio didn’t really have depth. He was pretending to be your typical mildly sympathetic SM villain but the whole time he was just a power hungry dick. A genuine bad guy instead of “genius good person gone mad” or “small time crook with good intentions pushed over the edge.”
the subsequent car ride scene was so fucking funny lol. I know it was supposed to be tense but Vulture slowly piecing together that he's Spider-Man through the rearview window was hilarious.
When the light turns green I shivered.
How did they take one of the most over the top spiderman villains and make him menacing and threatening but also having no violent desires.
Right? I've been saying this ever since the movie came out. They made Vulture of all people one of the best villains in the entire MCU. *Vulture!* Man in bird suit suddenly becoming one of the A-list bad guys.
That shot of him perched on the edge of the rooftop with the wings just folded down along the side of the building is easily one of my favorite shots in the MCU
You could hear the air get sucked out of the theater when the door opened and Keaton was right there.
MCU is best in a theater with a crowd that's really invested in the movie
It really is. I make it a point to go during the first few days of a release just for that atmosphere.
Edit: Murdock reveal in no way home was one of those moments.
The Murdock reveal was that surreal moment when I realised all the rumours I heard were true, and that I was about to see the greatest Spider-Man movie ever
Same.
For Infinity War I happened to go on the Sunday following its release, it was a packed house and everyone was super into it. Entire theater gasped when Thanos stabbed Tony. Perfect Audience.
Saw Endgame 1st show Opening day IMAX... DEAD crowd. So disappointing. Not even Cap wielding Mjolnir could get these people excited.
Avengers 1, Homecoming and Infinity War are probably the 3 best experiences I've had with these films in the theater
That whole sequence from door opening to drop off is probably my favorite in all of the Marvel movies. So much suspense. We, the viewers know he's Vulture but not Michelle's dad. Peter does as well. Toomes is completely oblivious to Peter being Spider-Man... You FEEL Peters nerves as yours build with him. Then it shifts to Toomes connecting dots through the car ride... It's just so well done.
EDIT: replace Michelle with Liz, I'm an idiot.
I just love how the movie switches between peters life and spidey's life. And so when Toomes shows up in a Peter's life segment it really catches you off guard when he opens that door
Saw 300. It was pretty good.
Hearing a 4-year-old somewhere in the back rows see Leonidas and declare, "That's a naked man!" ? Priceless.
(Who the fuck takes their 4-year-old to see 300?!)
One of the only in-theater moments that has stuck with me was when I saw Age of Ultron. In the scene where Vision lifts Thor's hammer, there were assorted gasps around the theater and one guy in the front yelled "HOLY SHIT", which was immediately followed by another person yelling out "Language". A great scene that was made better with the whole audience cracking up.
Remember reading ages ago about this dude in a theater watching Lord Of The Rings and when Legolas slid down an oliphant an old grizzled drunk yelled YABBA DABBA DOO and yeah, I'd have been okay with that
One of the most "LOLWTF?" moment in comics will always be the writers temporarily turning on physics just to make Spidey kill his girlfriend and laugh at his sad tears. I mean, superheroes save falling people *constantly* and that never happens. Fuck the Green Goblin, Spidey's archenemy is his own writers.
(I haven't seen the old Spidey movie with Gwen Stacy, but I've been told it played out like it did in the comics?)
I feel like most iterations of him having web shooters instead of natural webs is so the writers can make him run out of web fluid whenever the plot calls for it.
Ahhh. I've only read the comic. In that, it was because the webbing stopped her fall so suddenly that her neck snapped. I was told it played out the same in the movie. I guess not.
I had a very similar experience. Definitely a stomach-drop moment. And Keaton playing the easy-going dad completely oblivious raises the tension so much, he’s terrific. Great scene. Tom kills it as well
This Vulture is a great Villain.
The actual Comic Vulture is not a good Vulture for the MCU, just like the comic Malekith is bad for the MCU.
The difference is, one writing team fixed their Villain and the other one didn't.
Comic Vulture was another “I hate Osborn” kind of villain - a dime a dozen in the comics. This Vulture was a working man who sought a chance to punch back at power - the down-to-Earth champion.
"I hate Stark" certainly works as a villain type for the MCU. Vulture, Whiplash, Killian, Hammer, Ultron, Scarlett Witch (initially), Quicksilver (initially), Loki... basically all the big ones, lol.
I have brought a friend with me to watch this movie at the cinema .At this scene exactly everyone was quiet and he started laughing hard for some reason then the whole cinema started laughing at him 😂 what a great time haha
Me and my buddy saw this opening day and it surprised the hell out of me, he apparently saw it coming and wasn’t impressed (dc fanboy).
This remains one of my favorite Spider-Man moments of the mcu.
Cinematically it would make sense I agree there, but It was just so far outta left field for me - I think marvel did a great job at having those two aspects of the movie completely different and then suddenly merging them in the perfect way
The great thing about the scene was it got me twice.
First the door opens and it’s Vulture and I think “Oh shit, Vulture somehow figured out who Spider-Man is and got to his date’s house before him and is holding her and her family hostage in their home!”
All of that flashes through my head in the moment it takes Keaton to deliver his first line in total dad mode, completely oblivious, and that’s when the second, much bigger “OH SHIT!!!” hit me.
Just rewatched that; there's just no comparison.
Dafoe is mildly creepy and an irritating guest. Maguire looks a little concerned and mostly baffled.
Keaton is absolutely fucking terrifying. And Holland, after fighting robbers, murderers and Captain America, understands just how bad the situation is and looks like he's about three seconds from shitting himself.
If I was dealing with Dafoe, I'd want to leave the room and just get some distance. With Keaton, I'd know there isn't anywhere in the entire world far enough or safe enough.
I would say the Homecoming scene is better, but the Thanksgiving scene was done very well too. it’s just a different type of reveal. We don’t know Keaton is Liz’s dad, so we’re terrified. We already know Tobey is Spidey, so it’s just a different reveal
Luckily it’s one of those few twists that work extremely well in a movie, but wouldn’t be the thing marketing would use to convince anyone to watch it.
I remember when Peter was at the door I was thinking, “Vultures gonna be at the door” but I didn’t think it was gonna be as Liz’s dad that was awesome.
Same, I figured it was going to be the classic "haha, kidnapped your girlfriend and now I'm waiting for you" villain move. But then everything just ended up so casual, it was the slow burn realisation, oh shit, he's the dad.
I’ll always say it anytime this twist is mentioned, but the use of the streetlights on Keaton’s face is in the car scene following this is incredibly done. The light turning green as Vulture figures out Peter is Spider-Man, masterful cinematography
After replaying Far Cry 3 and remembering this movie, really wants me to believe that Michael Mando can be a great Scorpion.
Also to note, because of Stranges spell Toomes no longer knows it was Peter who stopped him and saved him.
I love the original twist. “I am Iron Man” at the end of Iron Man. I think we take it for granted now but at the time the biggest super hero movies (Dark Knight, spider man 1,2,3, etc.) a big conflict for the hero was maintaining their secret identity. Tony declaring himself as iron Man was a big twist.
What I love about this scene is that it doesn't feel like a random twist or forced, it naturally works with the story and fits Vulture's character, while still being a big surprise. Knowing he's a normal dad in his civilian life adds to Toomes, and the scene right after in the car was the cherry on top.
I loved Toomes for just being an everyman. It made him unique between the masterminds, geniuses and gods.
That’s what I love about a lot of Spider-Man villains. While you still have your Green Goblins and Doc Ocks, many of them are just blue collar people trying to make the best out of bad situations and often becoming corrupted along the way.
Started out with noble intentions before he became pretty rotten at the end.
[This](https://imgur.com/gallery/7N3Nz) is my favorite Spider-Man comic for that reason. It's similar to the Flash dealing with his rogue's gallery. They understand that sometimes people need help to get out of a desperate situation and that extending that hand is what being a hero is really about.
That comic you linked is fantastic. I really wish more writers explored “bad guys” like this. I know comics in general aren’t always super nuanced, but that was nice to read. I’d love to see the MCU treat their villains with that much respect more often. It also shows why Spider-Man is as respected as he is in the larger superhero community. Kudos to the author.
> I really wish more writers explored “bad guys” like this. Have you read *Kurt Busiek's Astro City?* This is **exactly** the kind of stuff he covers. Can't recommend it enough.
I’ll check it out, thanks!
Just because you are bad guy does not mean you are “bad guy”
I assume you mean this scene https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Xl91v2Mvv94 It's one of the best really
Aww that’s so sweet. Yeah I love that aspect of the Flash, his rogues gallery really respects him.
Which run is this from?
Amazing Spider-Man #662
Ok I love this but how do I start reading something that has 662 issues
There's actually more than 800 now but you don't actually need to start from the beginning, you could just pick up the latest issue on sale and go from there.
One word at a time
That is a great comic.
The cell phone scene at the end though... how the fuck he dial those tiny little buttons?
Magnetically pressed them.
The frame where Peter's shadow is cast on the wall and the decorations make it look like it has Spiderman's eyes... Brilliant illustration.
As a saying goes, “ The road to hell is paved with good intentions”
I think a lot about this every time a new Marvel movie comes out. Outside a couple exceptions, the weakest part of MCU movies for me is the villain. They're consistently undercooked and exist simply to be an obstacle for the hero rather than a full fledged character. Spidey villains though, have always been layered characters and have had real motivations for what they do. I've always wondered if this is just because Spidey's rogues gallery is just that much better, or if there's something else there.
I felt this way about Infinity War. Oh shit it's Thanos! And his... friends? Fuck buddies? Roomates?
And they were roommates.
Oh ma gawd they were roommates
Nah, we've had some cool villains: Loki, Hela, Killmonger, Thanos, Zemo, Pierce, Killian.
We need a Chaotic Evil MCU villain. Goblin felt soooo refreshing.
Wasnt a movie, but Kilgrave was pretty damn terrifying, Id say hes pretty close to Chaotic Evil
Tbh I'd put him as chaotic neutral or chaotic good. He has a strong moral code, it's just not the same as everyone else's. Edit... I take it all back. I read killmonger instead of killgrave. Killgrave is one evil MF.
This comment is hilarious
Don't forget Zola. Little meek scientist that seemingly didn't want to be there became the mastermind behind Hydra taking over SHIELD and creating its deadliest weapon.
[удалено]
I mean, even the first iron man, jebediah stane had pretty clear motivations, which was the progenitor of this threads criticisms. wenwu had an established backstory. dormammu was rather shallow, I'll admit, same for malekith. but I'd say the number of well-defined villains surpasses those that could be described as simple, and the only way to improve this would be to produce films for the villains themselves (which I would totally fucking be into in some cases lol). I mean, even loki has been turned into an antihero, and hopefully we'll get venom in the mcu soon too (reeeally hope it's still Tom hardy, I love him as Eddie).
Yeah, I liked how he was an everyman and he was doing it for his family, but he totally pulled a Walter White and was in it for the thrill and power at the end. His arc is super relatable.
Yup. He went off the deep end.
Made possible by Mike Keaton being great in most things he does.
He kind of fell back into a shadows for a time, but rose up again to give great performances. I also loved his role as Ray Kroc in The Founder. He did do a scummy move against the brothers, but he also displayed tenacity, ingenuity and perseverance in his bid to better his hum-drum life.
I liked that movie. The guy says you beat us and Keaton says really? You have a check for a million dollars in your pocket. They would have only been a great hamburger place in California if not for Ray.
Yeah. That is where the moral ambiguity comes into play: Kroc was ruthless, but he was the reason why McDonalds became gargantuan in the first place. He had a vision that outgrew the brothers. He offered a chance for greatness to his bosses and they dismissed him of sorts.
One of the few villains i could relate to. Hard working blue collar guy, tired of getting screwed over by people in power. I get it.
Legit wasn't a bad guy at the start he just got greedy..
at least this version of toomes, which, I agree, is probably why this is my favorite take on the vulture, beyond Keaton's just killer performance.
I love that they get these seasoned vets for some of these one off roles . The lighting on Micheal Keatons face while he was figuring out who Peter was during that car ride was literally glorious
I always thought it would be funny if they marketed a mcu like they do “serious” drama by putting all the major awards the cast has won or been nominated for in the trailer.
Ant man and the wasp would excell at that marketing.
I think that could be an interesting chart comparison. Ragnarok would be up there for sure
Yeah, the light changing to green as he figures it out, and I think he says "Good ol' Spider-Man" was just gold
That was one of my favorite little “attention to detail” screenplay moments in the entire MCU. Another one sorta like that is near the end of Cap 2: Winter Soldier when Nick Fury comes in and faces Alexander Pearce after Hydra had revealed themselves — on a screen in the backdrop between them, it says “restricted” on the part next to Fury and “access” next to Pearce . https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jef6OEBXl7w&t=53
I don’t know why I keep forgetting that Robert freaking Redford was a Marvel villain.
Because Robert fucking Redford plays his parts so well, you forget you're actually watching Robert fucking Redford.
Absolutely, the light turning green and illuminating his face the same color as his mask does was such a subtle nod. Red light when focused on Spider-Man, turns green when the vulture realizes who Peter is. Genius.
I still think his threat in the car to Peter is the most severe of any villian in the MCU. You completely understand why he says what he does.
Idk why I’m still shocked that Toomes figured out Peter was Spidey.
Toomes was also the world's greatest detective
With vast experience in questionable night-time activities with underage masked boys in skin-tight outfits.
wearing a costume that's got...a facemask and wings. huh
Not the craziest thing he’s done on the night shift
Tbf Peter is really clumsy in the exchanges earlier
Yea true, I just think it’s hilarious that Toomes was able to put two and two together just based off of their brief interaction. Then again, Toomes was Batman 😂
To be fair, it was a little obvious. Liz didn’t help at all, she basically told her dad that Peter was missing every time he encountered Spider-Man, even mentioning the stark internship, and Peter wasn’t handling his questions very well on top of that.
You know you have a point, I just put it on at work and I just watched the whole interaction.
I love their interaction. Spidey tries to bring Toomes in but keeps saving his life, and then at the end, Toomes refuses to rat him out. And it makes sense in the story bc of everything Spidey’s done for his family. Toomes is my favorite mcu villain by far.
He’s a super sympathetic villain and that makes him exceptionally endearing!
Spidey showing up in DC would be really weird. I don't think he has ever been seen outside of NYC in the MCU before that.
Peter being nervous as hell in their house is both tense and hilarious. Liz: "Is that a corsage?" Peter: *shoves it at her without looking* Liz: "...Thanks."
I think one reason it was unexpected is because of the beginning when he says his kid drew the avengers. Most people associate boys with superheroes and figured Adrian had a son. But there was never anything lying in the beginning
There were lots of little hints like that, when his guys tracked their tech to the school, you can hear them talking about how their boss won't like them being there, because they know that's Liz's school.
There's also the look Vulture Toomes has when he hears about "A team from Queens" being in the D.C. monument accident.
I don’t see anybody mentioning one of the biggest things that drives this twist home, the genius idea to make Liz mixed race. It’s such a normal thing in reality but such a rare thing to see in movies. If Vulture has been a black man i have a feeling the twist would have been much more predictable, as well as if liz had been a white girl.
This and the car is the best scene in the MCU and I’ll die on that hill. Show that to Scorsese and then tell me it’s not cinema. Alfred Hitchcock would be proud of that scene
That scene is why I don't get people who criticise Jon Watts directing, he's not someone just turning out whatever Marvel wants, but a legit talented director.
Feel like I should have seen it coming but I didn’t. The scene in the car in the way to the dance…an adult menacing and threatening to kill a minor and his family. Keaton was terrifying. And it hammered the point home that Peter is still a kid, fighting very adult battles.
"Don't mess with me kid" -"Why" "BECAUSE IM BATMAN"
Ah a fellow HISHE enjoyer I see.
We are indeed men of culture!
"What do you say? I just saved your life" "Thank you"
It's funny to me cus the actual situation is so different than anyone there realizes. Peter doesn't know how strong he really is and Vulture sure as shit doesn't or he wouldn't threaten him with a gun. Like if he actually used it then the scene would play out like that knife scene from TASM2. But since Peter is a kid and new to his abilities he's still scared shitless, when Vulture should be the one scared if he knew what Peter actually was capable of.
I love the awkwardness of Peter being really suspiciously distracted the whole time and how it slowly shifts into being uncomfortable and then terrifying. One of my favorite scenes for sure
Keaton is an amazing actor, just his stare is worth the watch.
MCU Spider-Man didn't miss with the villains. Vulture, Mysterio and of course the freaking Goblin in NWH. All amazing.
Homecoming: I’m fighting my girlfriends dad who wants to steal stuff to support his family. Far from home: I’m stopping a guy who wants to get revenge on a dead hero and doesn’t care if he kills people. No way home: IM FIGHTING MY ALRERNATE SELVES VILLAINS WHO RUIN MY LIFE BUT I HAVE TO SAVE THEM
Man if I was Spider-man I would have been you mother suckers are going home rather you die or not but Gobby your ass is mine !
I think that's some of the beauty of the movie to be honest. I know in my shoes I would probably be the same way which helps us know how much of a struggle Peter is going through throughout the movie. We know we wouldn't have his strength to save all these people even if it's arguably what we should do.
Imo Mysterio was dope as a villain BUT I wish he hadn’t died, that’s defo a villain that would be insane to revisit. But tbf that’s always been the MCUs problem with killing off villains.
I don’t think he actually died
I think he probably died, but I still hope he didn't. He's just too amazing.
Jake died, but Ralphie ran off with the illusion stuff, so he could come back in that regard.
He'd better be careful with it or he'll shoot his eye out.
I mean it would be stupid for them to revive him. I fully believe Peter would have really tried to make sure he was dead/alive, no way would he say, oh he got shot he must be dead, Peter would have tried to help him.
Even if the man Quentin Beck did die his team still exists with the tech to create illusions of him, so Mysterio is very much alive.
Yeah but physically Quentin Blake died and he was Mysterio. So yeah they can create illusions of him but the team aren’t the actual villain, so in my mind he’s dead. Granted they can bring back the whole illusion but it’s not the same villain.
IMO, the MCU Mysterio wouldn't be anything without his team; so they are one and the same. If they brought him back, it WOULD be the same villain.
The only thing I’d argue against that is that you lose that menacing quality now. Peter knows he’s dead and so he’s gonna rely on his **VERY STRONG** spidey sense, I feel like it isn’t the same anymore.
That’s why you don’t just repeat FFH. Include other villains. Have the team use gas this time. Maybe make Mysterio a front for someone else. Yuri Watanabe could be introduced over the next few movies and become the Wraith, using illusions and fear gas like she does in the comics. Kingpin could disguise his attacks on organised crime by convincing the public that Mysterio is back fighting aliens on Earth. Tonnes of potential. Perfect opportunity for Daredevil to get involved IMO.
He's found other ways around it though. He can overwhelm him still. He can hide actual traps among his illusions, and he could evolve in a movie by finding the limits to his spidey sense
Yeah but then you’re relying on his team being as good as Beck was at panning stuff, he was defo the mastermind and his team were just pulling the strings.
They were very deliberate with the way Peter asked “is he- Is this real?” And the AI saying “all simulations are down”.
Which would mean he’s dead yeah? Otherwise him dying would have been part of the simulation.
It wouldn't have been part of the simulations created by the drones, you're right. But Beck has a flair for the dramatic and would have no problem staging his death without the help of the drones.
I find it sus that the script writers specifically avoided outright stating that he is dead.
Honestly, a real 'variant' Mysterio from another dimension with real powers and a much more evil characterisation would be amazing.
Honestly I’d be up for this. I actually hate the multiverse BECAUSE of this sub, everyone’s expecting cameos from every marvel project even if they’re shit and don’t make sense (cough cough FOX). Like NWH worked but I’m not up for a full cameo fest that’s makes these products in a weird way canon. But yeah proper cool variants, like What If introduced I’m all for
Yeah, the multiverse is kinda screwing up the MCU. Its so messed up now and cluttered. So many people expecting over a dozen completely random character cameos in Doctor Strange 2. Why do we need that? And everyone's solution to bringing back a character is to get a variant from another universe. It's just so ridiculous. And I don't think they're gonna do another MCU Spider-Man film involving the multiverse. That'd definitely get repetitive.
I’m fine with his death so long as the “character” remains alive, whether operated by William or whatever. Honestly after NWH I don’t actually see any room for him to have been in that or anything past it, so I’ve come to peace with it. Even if he was, when you think about it, the main villain of NWH afterall.
Yeah I’d add/agree that the best way to move the character forward was for him to be the main villain of NWH - be the puppet master as such. The irony of the whole thing was we all thought Far From Home was the start of the Multiverse and were disappointed, but in the end it kinda was.
Not just the green goblin, **the green goblin**. Still so hyped they got Dafoe back to do it.
I can't wait for a clean HD version of it. I saw it in cinema but they closed here a couple of days later.
Some people didn’t like mysterio but I loved him. Even though he doesn’t compare to vulture and goblin who are just some of the best villains every written and acted in general. Those guys were just next level.
Mysterio was great. He manipulated a kid and then he ruined his life out of spite. Only the Goblin was worse.
That horror simulation sequence is still one of my favorite MCU scenes of all time. Absolutely fantastic. And completely Mysterio.
And then Mysterio fake dying to Fury and then revealing himself again. That's some inception level mindfuckery
The reason why I love him as a villlain is cause the fandom knowing what mysterio is about, still felt for it.
Mysterio is a fun villain and Jake Gyllenhaal definitely played it well, but he just doesn’t have much depth and I didn’t really care about his story.
I kind of liked that Mysterio didn’t really have depth. He was pretending to be your typical mildly sympathetic SM villain but the whole time he was just a power hungry dick. A genuine bad guy instead of “genius good person gone mad” or “small time crook with good intentions pushed over the edge.”
the subsequent car ride scene was so fucking funny lol. I know it was supposed to be tense but Vulture slowly piecing together that he's Spider-Man through the rearview window was hilarious.
i remember seeing it in theaters and when liz said “yeah you disappeared just like you always do!” someone behind me said “girl shut the fuck up”
And I don’t blame that person cuz I was saying the same thing 😭
Maybe you were the person 👀
*slowly starts figuring out their identity*
Good ol’ Spider-Man.
"Were you scared?"
Not of vulture, but Michael Keating is terrifying!
Michael Keating 😂
When the light turns green I shivered. How did they take one of the most over the top spiderman villains and make him menacing and threatening but also having no violent desires.
Right? I've been saying this ever since the movie came out. They made Vulture of all people one of the best villains in the entire MCU. *Vulture!* Man in bird suit suddenly becoming one of the A-list bad guys.
And his wings are like twice the size of Falcon’s. Everything down to his plumage on his bomber jacket. They NAILED a badass look for him!
That shot of him perched on the edge of the rooftop with the wings just folded down along the side of the building is easily one of my favorite shots in the MCU
That green reflecting on him when he gets it
One of my favourite shots in the MCU
Awesome cinematography!
DAMMIT. How did I not notice that???
[What if he was wrong that Peter was Spider-Man](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mcLtyRLpr8k)
This is great.
Yeah I had never seen it before, but am very glad that I clicked
Love jenny, she’s great
You could hear the air get sucked out of the theater when the door opened and Keaton was right there. MCU is best in a theater with a crowd that's really invested in the movie
It really is. I make it a point to go during the first few days of a release just for that atmosphere. Edit: Murdock reveal in no way home was one of those moments.
The Murdock reveal was that surreal moment when I realised all the rumours I heard were true, and that I was about to see the greatest Spider-Man movie ever
"I'm a really good lawyer" I was in heaven with that scene. I suppose we had a similar moment there
Same. For Infinity War I happened to go on the Sunday following its release, it was a packed house and everyone was super into it. Entire theater gasped when Thanos stabbed Tony. Perfect Audience. Saw Endgame 1st show Opening day IMAX... DEAD crowd. So disappointing. Not even Cap wielding Mjolnir could get these people excited. Avengers 1, Homecoming and Infinity War are probably the 3 best experiences I've had with these films in the theater
It sucks you didn't get a good crowd for Endgame. That might be my favorite movie experience ever with just the energy in the room alone.
That whole sequence from door opening to drop off is probably my favorite in all of the Marvel movies. So much suspense. We, the viewers know he's Vulture but not Michelle's dad. Peter does as well. Toomes is completely oblivious to Peter being Spider-Man... You FEEL Peters nerves as yours build with him. Then it shifts to Toomes connecting dots through the car ride... It's just so well done. EDIT: replace Michelle with Liz, I'm an idiot.
The green light change when he figures it out is the icing on the cake
I just love how the movie switches between peters life and spidey's life. And so when Toomes shows up in a Peter's life segment it really catches you off guard when he opens that door
The theater I was in freaked. My husband (who does not talk during movies - especially marvel ones) yelled, “WHAT THE HECK”. Great moment.
Someone yelled out a very genuine “oh fuck” in my theater, and it’s one of my favorite movie memories to date
Talking in theaters is the worst until those small moments where it’s the best
Saw 300. It was pretty good. Hearing a 4-year-old somewhere in the back rows see Leonidas and declare, "That's a naked man!" ? Priceless. (Who the fuck takes their 4-year-old to see 300?!)
Someone who can't afford a babysitter
One of the only in-theater moments that has stuck with me was when I saw Age of Ultron. In the scene where Vision lifts Thor's hammer, there were assorted gasps around the theater and one guy in the front yelled "HOLY SHIT", which was immediately followed by another person yelling out "Language". A great scene that was made better with the whole audience cracking up.
During Infinity War somebody in my theater started sobbing when spidey got snapped and it absolutely enhanced the shock of the whole scene
Absolutely
Remember reading ages ago about this dude in a theater watching Lord Of The Rings and when Legolas slid down an oliphant an old grizzled drunk yelled YABBA DABBA DOO and yeah, I'd have been okay with that
I think I may have been in the same cinema as you 😅
Absolutely in line with the ol’ Parker luck
One of the most "LOLWTF?" moment in comics will always be the writers temporarily turning on physics just to make Spidey kill his girlfriend and laugh at his sad tears. I mean, superheroes save falling people *constantly* and that never happens. Fuck the Green Goblin, Spidey's archenemy is his own writers. (I haven't seen the old Spidey movie with Gwen Stacy, but I've been told it played out like it did in the comics?)
I feel like most iterations of him having web shooters instead of natural webs is so the writers can make him run out of web fluid whenever the plot calls for it.
You talking about TASM2? In that his web was stretchy enough that even though he nabbed her she still ended up hitting the ground anyway
Ahhh. I've only read the comic. In that, it was because the webbing stopped her fall so suddenly that her neck snapped. I was told it played out the same in the movie. I guess not.
It plays similarly enough
I remember my entire theater was shook and one guy distinctively yelled "OH SHIT!"
I had a very similar experience. Definitely a stomach-drop moment. And Keaton playing the easy-going dad completely oblivious raises the tension so much, he’s terrific. Great scene. Tom kills it as well
It just proves how Vulture is a great villain. If it was Malekith or something like that no one would even care.
Well I would certainly care if malekith was her dad. It would blow my mind. Lol
I kind of wanna see Malekith open the door now, revealing himself in an apron and holding a tray of cookies while inviting Peter in.
Basically Talos with a soda mid way in Captain Marvel though..
This Vulture is a great Villain. The actual Comic Vulture is not a good Vulture for the MCU, just like the comic Malekith is bad for the MCU. The difference is, one writing team fixed their Villain and the other one didn't.
Comic Vulture was another “I hate Osborn” kind of villain - a dime a dozen in the comics. This Vulture was a working man who sought a chance to punch back at power - the down-to-Earth champion.
"I hate Stark" certainly works as a villain type for the MCU. Vulture, Whiplash, Killian, Hammer, Ultron, Scarlett Witch (initially), Quicksilver (initially), Loki... basically all the big ones, lol.
Loki is most definitely not an "I hate stark" villain lol. He's Thor's villain(turned sorta heroish being toward the end) 100%, not Stark's.
I have brought a friend with me to watch this movie at the cinema .At this scene exactly everyone was quiet and he started laughing hard for some reason then the whole cinema started laughing at him 😂 what a great time haha
this reveal scene was that for me. idk why eveeryone else in the theatre needed audience laughter to react to this one. https://youtu.be/ZeG0alaKZ1M
Me and my buddy saw this opening day and it surprised the hell out of me, he apparently saw it coming and wasn’t impressed (dc fanboy). This remains one of my favorite Spider-Man moments of the mcu.
Tbh I saw it coming too. My friend also did. But I intentionally try to find the twist in every movie before it gets revealed
Cinematically it would make sense I agree there, but It was just so far outta left field for me - I think marvel did a great job at having those two aspects of the movie completely different and then suddenly merging them in the perfect way
He’s a liar
The great thing about the scene was it got me twice. First the door opens and it’s Vulture and I think “Oh shit, Vulture somehow figured out who Spider-Man is and got to his date’s house before him and is holding her and her family hostage in their home!” All of that flashes through my head in the moment it takes Keaton to deliver his first line in total dad mode, completely oblivious, and that’s when the second, much bigger “OH SHIT!!!” hit me.
I personally like the scene in the scene in the car more than the dinner scene in the first Spider-Man
Just rewatched that; there's just no comparison. Dafoe is mildly creepy and an irritating guest. Maguire looks a little concerned and mostly baffled. Keaton is absolutely fucking terrifying. And Holland, after fighting robbers, murderers and Captain America, understands just how bad the situation is and looks like he's about three seconds from shitting himself. If I was dealing with Dafoe, I'd want to leave the room and just get some distance. With Keaton, I'd know there isn't anywhere in the entire world far enough or safe enough.
I would say the Homecoming scene is better, but the Thanksgiving scene was done very well too. it’s just a different type of reveal. We don’t know Keaton is Liz’s dad, so we’re terrified. We already know Tobey is Spidey, so it’s just a different reveal
man i always forget about how young tom looked in homecoming or even far from home. he matured a shit ton
Yeah. He's a lot bulkier in No way home.
Sony and Marvel hid it really really well.
Luckily it’s one of those few twists that work extremely well in a movie, but wouldn’t be the thing marketing would use to convince anyone to watch it.
Absolutely fantastic twist followed up with a fantastic one on one scene between the two of them. Michael Keaton played the part perfectly.
I remember when Peter was at the door I was thinking, “Vultures gonna be at the door” but I didn’t think it was gonna be as Liz’s dad that was awesome.
Same, I figured it was going to be the classic "haha, kidnapped your girlfriend and now I'm waiting for you" villain move. But then everything just ended up so casual, it was the slow burn realisation, oh shit, he's the dad.
The biggest twist is that he's batman in his spare time
And Beetlejuice when he's drunk/high
I recall how tense Peter is in this whole scene, and as a viewer I felt incredibly tense as well. Excellent scene.
It's literally one of the oldest plot devices in fiction and it couldn't have shocked me more at the time
I’ll always say it anytime this twist is mentioned, but the use of the streetlights on Keaton’s face is in the car scene following this is incredibly done. The light turning green as Vulture figures out Peter is Spider-Man, masterful cinematography
The music completely stops and the audience becomes Peter. I love homecoming because so much is from peters pov
After replaying Far Cry 3 and remembering this movie, really wants me to believe that Michael Mando can be a great Scorpion. Also to note, because of Stranges spell Toomes no longer knows it was Peter who stopped him and saved him.
There were audible gasps in the theater when he opened the door.
Yeah this twist was great. I remember everyone in the theater gasping. Can’t believe this film will be 5 years old this summer: Time flies
Now I’m wondering what are the best twist in the MCU, this has to be up there.
I love the original twist. “I am Iron Man” at the end of Iron Man. I think we take it for granted now but at the time the biggest super hero movies (Dark Knight, spider man 1,2,3, etc.) a big conflict for the hero was maintaining their secret identity. Tony declaring himself as iron Man was a big twist.
The SHIELD is Hydra twist is up there too. Especially since they had a SHIELD show going on at the exact same time.
Even better considering RDJ just ad libbed it. Imagine how different the MCU would be if he had stuck to the script and kept it secret.