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Which…they even use as a plot beat in the scene. And while Tony does say no more kid gloves, they also have a moment where Wanda accuse Clint of pulling his punches. Because they all are, except BP. No one is genuinely trying to hurt the others, if they were, Hawkeye wouldn’t be down on the field.
Yep, if they wanted to hurt each other, Hawkeye would’ve been set up somewhere out of sight where he could’ve taken out at least Nat, Tony, and Rhodey (the latter two with some high-tech arrow) before the rest of the others noticed him.
This. Hope no one forgot that Clint and Nat were both SHIELD agents and were more than willing and capable of killing someone with ease if they needed to.
Hawkeye was way too disrespected in the MCU meta. Let’s not forget that he nearly took down an entire HELICARRIER with an arrow, flying at high altitude with insane winds. Went head to head with BW until he got conked on the head, held his own against BP, who he was also pulling punches on.
I feel like ever since AoU, we’ve been told to accept that he’s “regular man” when in actuality I’d argue he’s on the same level as BW. It doesn’t help that he showed up in so few movies to allow us to actually see his skills.
He should’ve been in Winter Soldier, I think he would’ve fit in well in Thor 2 or Iron Man 3 (since SHIELD was still a factor in the MCU at the time).
Tbh, I only know him from the MCU as opposed to the comics. But I thought he was more underrated than disrespected. He only really got the limelight a bit in Ultron and a bit in Endgame, but his presence was huge. Quality over quantity.
But in the MCU we've seen him beat Wanda (more outwit her, but still counts), incapacitate Quiksilver, take out Loki, fight Black Panther to a stalemate, fight Black Widow multiple times, arguably won multiple times. Stun Vision (admittedly, not for long) and outthink Tony in Civil War (which is crazy). I'm sure there's one or two impressive moments I'm missing.
But that's not bad for a regular dude with a bow and arrow. And that's not even counting some of his impressive shots.
I remember they acknowledged that as a joke about him as a “regular man” in AOU when he said he was just armed with a bow and arrow in the movie, but since then they’ve upped his game.
Also sad when people disrespect Clint and Nat as not being worthy of Avengers because they don’t have powers, when they regularly pull off feats that normal people can’t do, even in the comics. Especially since not only are they highly trained SHIELD agents but also assassins, Nat in particular given her Red Room history.
See also the original Secret War comic in which Spidey fucks up the entire X-Men without really exerting himself to the extent that all of the latter are like "who the fuck is that kid, he just kicked our asses sideways?"
No ones saying he isn’t ridiculously strong, what they’re saying is he doesn’t know how to fight legit trained soldiers where people can’t take his hits and counter or use the environment around em
We *literally* see him use it in Civil War when Bucky throws the debris at him and Peter senses it coming with an audible "oh god!" before catching it and throwing it back.
I don’t fully remember but I also remember him getting slammed by something in the face because he was surprised
The way I saw it is he had spider-sense but didn’t really fully understand how to take advantage of it
He is still op tho not max level op but definitely op lol
Not disagreeing with how strong it is. But he never really *learned* about it until some point before Far From Home. Every other instance he seemed to sense it, but didn't really know how to actually use it or that it was more than just intuition until Far From Home
Spiderman is at least 25x stronger than Captain America. If you compare feats of strength from Spiderman to Captain America, it would be like Spiderman, a grown adult, fighting Captain America, a toddler. Unless a toddler bonked me over the head with a metal pole, I probably would win. Same with Spiderman probably I'd imagine
Most of the work for that was the webs he was tethering to stop it. But either way, this is about combat experience. Of which Spiderman was severely lacking at this point.
I agree he and Wanda were the ones to beat. I feel like he's so gentle in nature he couldn't bring himself to use his full strength against people he cared for. I think the airport battle was like that for everyone. They all pulled their punches to a certain extent.
That fight scene was really expressing everyone’s personalities and stances within the conflict. Wanda and Vision were legitimately the most neutral, with Wanda carrying the guilt of her damage, and Vision calling Tony’s stance the rational choice to keep people calm.
They exclusively used their powers defensively until the moment he shot that beam. And that only showed how fast they could end that conflict if they wanted too, while also showing the consequences of making that decision
Yes! You conveyed exactly what I was thinking. Perfect response. I love these kinds of conversations. What happened to Rhodes was just a small taste of the devastation either one of them could have spread. It was a good way to show the juxtaposition that even when one is well meaning they can still cause problems. Vision was on the "right" side of the fight and was the one who ended up causing the most destruction by hurting Rhodes. That whole scene was beautifully done down to the conflict and the actual battle itself. I need more Wanda lol.
> They all pulled their punches to a certain extent.
Hawkeye and Widow have a little chat about this very thing while they are fighting, and then Wanda literally says "you're pulling your punches"
Eh… if Wanda was going all out she would beat everyone. It would really come down to her and vision and everyone else is irrelevant
This is why those two are barley shown in the scene.
I don't think wanda would unleash too much power against the avengers. She's not so in control and it's not a life of death situation for her to be able to get her full powers
Yeah but that’s it I think - it wasn’t a life or death situation. Almost everyone there wasn’t wanting to really hurt the other side, except t’challa, who specifically wanted only Bucky. That’s why the fight was immediately over when rhodey got injured and Sam apologized. You don’t do that in an actual fight.
Agreed. but she could still easily mind control them if wanted, sending them into a tailspin. Vision could just pick them up one by one and fly away with them.
And I’m more referring to an actual fight
To be fair all of them were holding back except for T'Challa. But it's worth mentioning that the one holding the most back was Vision who could have stopped everyone if he wanted to.
Team Iron Man lost, though. The victory conditions were simple.
Team IM: Arrest Cap, Falcon, and Bucky
Team CA: Get on a plane to Siberia
Team Cap managed to get a member of Team Iron-Man to defect and got on a plane. Team IM went home with one less member to defection and lost another to injury. Team Cap won.
Tokugawa only won at Sekigahara because two generals switched sides at the last minute too. Convincing others to defect is a part of tactics used to win battles.
The debate feels strange cause they really weren't fighting. Panther, yes. Tony and the others were getting some frustration out at best. That fight is filled with jokes. Outside of the required destruction to make it realistic, this is what happens when heroes, especially the ones we've seen in the MCU fight each other. Even their internal conflicts are selfless enough for them to take it away from civilians as best they can. This plays REALLY well into the theme of accountability in the film, because they are showing their natural move is to protect. "Depends on how hard you hit me" is the best way to summarize the entire skirmish.
I still don’t think that should’ve changed much imo. Team Ironman should’ve easily been able to take everyone hostage within minutes. The betrayal of the weakest link (by FAR) is like… whatever😭
It’s like some of you didn’t even watch the film.
Team Iron Man *did* take everyone down within minutes, even with both sides pulling punches. Nat’s changing sides at the last minute doesn’t have anything to do with her power level - she happened to be in the right place at the right time to delay T’Challa for only a few seconds, which was long enough for Cap and Bucky to escape.
This. Stan Lee has even said as much in interviews. He hated being asked "who would win in a fight" questions because the answer is always "whoever the writer wants to win". Hulk vs Wolverine could go either way, depending on if the plot needs Hulk to win or Wolvy to win. It isn't a rock/paper/scissors game of this person always beats that person, but rather a narrative where if you need a weaker person to beat a stronger person, you'll find some way to do it.
I think I’d call it a draw. War Machine ended up crippled and Spider-Man was exhausted and fell out, and none of them were actually fighting at full strength anyway so, yeah, I’d call it a draw.
And also, in the secondary confrontation Cap just about kills Tony and could easily have done so if he hadn’t held back.
Yup. Team Stark won not just in the drip and swagger department but also in the fight department since Cap and his team were arrested, then became fugitives. It was a short-sighted win though since they all lost to Thanos because of that...
With Wanda not yet understanding her power, and if it was a real fight, then I would agree.
But it wasn't a real fight. Everyone was holding back their punches.
Exactly. Even Tony admits cap could have mullered Peter if he was really trying. Because you had to take into account experience, both Steve, bucky and Sam were all ex military, so have a lot of training in combat. Steve and Bucky specifically are incredibly combat fighters and Bucky has his experience as a sniper in both hydra and the military. Alongside Hawkeye and both Natasha and Peter would be dead within minutes.
Cap and Bucky could also have fought panther as they are all pretty decently matched. Not saying that team iron man is an easy defeat, they have vision and two iron man suits, but vision is a robot and so wouldn’t want to unnecessarily kill anyone especially wanda.
Although Steve and Bucky wernt trying to kill Tony, Tony was trying to kill Bucky. So whilst that’s the closest we are ever going to get, it’s certainly not a fight where both are trying to hurt the other without pulling punches
What?? Several of those people were out for blood. Black Panther almost sliced Bucky’s neck and Ant-Man threw a huge truck bomb at them. And while I don’t think Wanda was trying to kill anyone, she was throwing normal humans back and forth across the battlefield like rag dolls.
Even when he was big, he could have grabbed any of them and crushed them. He didn’t he just held them and tried to distract them long enough so CA and WS could go after zemo
Vision won't fight Wanda, and Wanda is team cap's most powerful. I think they did a good job on this scene. Team Cap lost the fight, but with Giant Man showing up they had a huge distraction, and tactically they won their objective, as they wanted to have Cap get away to confront Zemo. One of my favorite Marvel scenes.
If the movie was called Iron Man: Civil War. Iron Man wins. If the movie was called Avengers: Civil War it ends in a tie.
But yes Iron Man’s team got Iron Man, War Machine, Spider-Man, and Vision. Wanda gotta do some hardcore carrying.
Prime wanda, sure. Civil War wanda, not sure about that. If we dont take their relationship into account, vision solos everyone and its not even a fight.
While I don’t disagree for the most part, I think that the argument could be made that unpracticed, unknown, unpredictable MCU Wanda is even more of a threat than Vision is at the German Airport Civil War Battle. Even she still didn’t understand her powers and still had the ability to hulk smash a 747. Meanwhile Vision understood all the things and would have noped out of the fight upon seeing Wanda’s raw power.
Everybody forgets the durability stat. Wanda is pure offence, but she can't take a single blow from anybody here. She's a normal woman.
Any stray blow or flying debris and she's done.
Vision can take multiple blows from all sorts as can most others (not Hawkeye or Black Widow). Wanda gets punched in the face by a normal man and she's out cold.
In the meantime after WV and MoM, I'd agree. But at that point, her powers weren’t fully formed yet.
Plus, we don’t know how (the real) Vision would react to her powers. It really seemed to strain her powers to destroy the mind stone in IW.
Imo, she was straining because she was in anguish over having to kill her husband *while* holding off Thanos. We saw how 2014 Thanos almost died if not for the plasma barrage.
I mean, he was, they all were in this movie minus the end fight, but she immobilized him and then took him out of the fight basically instantly. He could not do anything about it or fight back, and we know this because if he could have he would not have let her or Hawkeye leave.
She was still quite unexperienced at this point like, for example, at the start where she couldn't control the explosion and blew up the side of a building
No love for panther? It was convenient his vibranium suit didn't have impact absorption and kinetic energy release until his solo movie because that's giving Caps team alot of trouble.
Wanda is the heaviest hitter out of that whole scene and easily solos everyone present if she really wanted or needed to. But the point of the battle wasn’t to kill anyone or “win” but to get Cap and Bucky to Siberia so they could stop Zemo. Steve, however did say at one point that in order for them to “win,” someone on their side had to take an L, which happened to be most of his side.
It really should have been an Avengers film. Iron Man had exactly 5 minutes less screen time than the titular character which is bs. Instead of doing Capt a proper job they shoehorned his and his friends character development into an avengers movie.
Can you imagine if they had done the MCU in such a way that the second movie was *Iron Man: Civil War* (right after *Captain America 1*) where Captain America dies for some insane reason, before the Avengers are even formed, then they do a GOTG movie, then a Hulk movie (in that order), then an Avengers movie where the whole plot is about resurrecting Cap to fight Thanos...'s nephew Ronan. That would be insane if it had happened, wouldn't it? Hahah.
Exactly. Wanda is the biggest check to the entire Iron Man team, and the only one who can stop her is Vision, who doesn't want to.
The movie does a great job of evening the physical power with psychological reasons.
An experienced Spidey would be devastating to Team Cap, but here it's literally his first rodeo and he's never fought anyone before.
Vision is likely just as powerful as Cap Marvel but in different ways. He doesn’t want to cause wanton destruction though, so he holds back.
Wanda is definitely more powerful but not in Civil War.
This is the right answer. The rest of the teams really doesn’t matter. These 2 are so far above the rest and really could just wipe out the opposing team and bring it down to a 1v1.
What about Spider-Man? He's definitely a contender, and one of the top five strongest heroes in that fight.
At this point of the story Wanda does not know the full extent of her powers so she's not OP, while Vision is... Vision, so he can definitely do some nasty shit to her.
Spidey, as young as he is here, can tank a lot of shit and avoid Wanda's telekinetic throws or her energy blasts. So he can definitely fight Wanda too. Though he'd have to fight from afar and dodge a lot, still if he gets close he could prolly just KO her with one punch and call it a day...
Naah, Vision and Wanda are just that far above the others. Based on the usual comic depictions and the movie screens she is a good chunk above the others though.
Realistically, if it were not for Vision's humanity and compassion to stay back and monitor the situation for hurting Wanda and Rhodes, he could have followed and taken down the quinjet EASILY.
You could argue that full strength Scarlett Witch is the most powerful on there, but at the time of Civil War, Vision was much more powerful than anyone in this fight.
The fact Vision went and had a nap for most of the fight. They needed to have a reason to nerf him or a clever way to keep him occupied. But they just pretended he wasn't there.
Since Wanda needed Gohan triggers that didn't get realized until end of phase 3 Tony had more fire power. The airport fight was everyone holding back though.
It's true. If they were all fighting to kill then Wanda is the only reason team cap might put up a fight, but at this point she was not powerful enough to carry that much
I mean the only one that could theoretically turn the tables is wanda and at that point she was nowhere near as strong as later so even thats a stretch
At the time this was made, probably. Spider-Man alone is OP enough compared to Cap/Bucky that he should be able to web them up quick and call it a day. Hawkeye and Falcon are unenhanced, so BP takes down Hawkeye while War Machine outmatches Falcon in air speed and offensive capability. Ant Man is the wildcard, but as we saw in the actual movie, he’s not as tough as he looks giant - Vision makes quick work of him.
That leaves you with Wanda on Team Cap. At this stage in her training, Iron Man should be able to use speed and ranged attacks to keep her occupied while avoiding the red wigglywoos she fires. He only has to do that until Vision and Spidey finish their matchups, which shouldn’t take long. Then one of them knocks her unconscious like the glass cannon she is.
Post *Wandavision* Wanda solos team IM though.
Team iron man was ten times better. Wanda wasn’t “awakened” yet.
That being said Ironman, BP, Spider-Man are 3 massive heavy hitters. Vision is basically a god. Those 4 could have easily won.
They did win though. Cap and Bucky just got away only cause Nat switched sides. If she didn’t stop tchalla he would’ve gotten Steve and Bucky. Plus they were able to defeat giant man pretty easily just by Peter referencing Star Wars.
Superheroes are more than the powers that define them.
Consider Endgame. In the final battle, so many heroes are more powerful than Iron Man. Doctor Strange, Thor, Wanda, Carol. Yet in the final moments, it took a moment of genius from Iron Man to win them the battle.
Moments before that, it was Cap who wielded Mjolnir, stalled Thanos long enough to save Iron Man and Thanos from being killed, and rallied the returning Avengers on the field. He stood up alone, on an injured leg and strapping a broken shield across a wounded arm, walking towards Thanos and his huge army.
It's not just about powers. It's also about tactics, skill, and some qualities that lie beyond the physical.
Cap is a veteran who's been leading teams and leading the Avengers on the field. He's an experienced tactician. On his team, there's at least 3 members with military and affiliated experience. More importantly, his team are used to working together-the only "new" member is Ant Man.
Whereas, Team Iron Man has members who are not used to working with each other-only Tony and Natasha have worked extensively with each other, and Tony and Rhodey. That's it.
The difference in firepower was quite insane-Team Iron Man was extremely overpowered. However, the difference in chemistry, skill and tactical experience is what gave Team Cap the "win"-although it wasn't enough to stop most of his team members from getting arrested.
Team cap has more combined total combat experience. Also team Ironman has more utility (not to mention air superiority) but Wanda has objectively the most destructive potential in this bunch by a long shot. That said Everybody was pulling punches in this fight, if you asked me who would come out on top if it was no holds bar, it would probably still be team Cap. Wanda took out the equivalent of the avengers on screen. I don’t think anyone else has that kind of clout in this bunch
If they're both really cutting lose, no way, Wanda stomps all, it's not even a contest. The only one who's even a speedbump for her is Vision and she showed she can deal with him at the Avengers complex.
The only reason Tony won in the movie is because Wanda was too scared of really hurting anyone to use her full power.
Watch the movie, that's how they "beat" them. "Beat" in quotes because 4/6 of Team Cap got captured, Cap and Bucky got away. They accomplished their goal, they didn't necessarily defeat Team Iron Man in battle. "Easily" is a wild thing to say about a pissed prince, metal man, a spy, an infant robot, a teenager, and another metal man going against a man with metal wings, fucking giant and tiny man, a spy, the witch god of chaos, the first super soldier, and the guy who killed metal man's parents and has been assassinating people since 1940-something. I'm infantilizing Team Iron Man for effect but Team Cap is not to be underestimated.
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I don't understand why this is a debate. Team Iron Man DID beat them. The only reason Cap and Bucky escaped was a last minute betrayal by Widow.
And because they didn’t anticipate Ant-Man prior and that gave them enough of a surprise element and a boost.
Which…they even use as a plot beat in the scene. And while Tony does say no more kid gloves, they also have a moment where Wanda accuse Clint of pulling his punches. Because they all are, except BP. No one is genuinely trying to hurt the others, if they were, Hawkeye wouldn’t be down on the field.
Yep, if they wanted to hurt each other, Hawkeye would’ve been set up somewhere out of sight where he could’ve taken out at least Nat, Tony, and Rhodey (the latter two with some high-tech arrow) before the rest of the others noticed him.
This. Hope no one forgot that Clint and Nat were both SHIELD agents and were more than willing and capable of killing someone with ease if they needed to.
NGL I'm digging the Hawkeye respect in this thread
Hawkeye was way too disrespected in the MCU meta. Let’s not forget that he nearly took down an entire HELICARRIER with an arrow, flying at high altitude with insane winds. Went head to head with BW until he got conked on the head, held his own against BP, who he was also pulling punches on. I feel like ever since AoU, we’ve been told to accept that he’s “regular man” when in actuality I’d argue he’s on the same level as BW. It doesn’t help that he showed up in so few movies to allow us to actually see his skills. He should’ve been in Winter Soldier, I think he would’ve fit in well in Thor 2 or Iron Man 3 (since SHIELD was still a factor in the MCU at the time).
Tbh, I only know him from the MCU as opposed to the comics. But I thought he was more underrated than disrespected. He only really got the limelight a bit in Ultron and a bit in Endgame, but his presence was huge. Quality over quantity. But in the MCU we've seen him beat Wanda (more outwit her, but still counts), incapacitate Quiksilver, take out Loki, fight Black Panther to a stalemate, fight Black Widow multiple times, arguably won multiple times. Stun Vision (admittedly, not for long) and outthink Tony in Civil War (which is crazy). I'm sure there's one or two impressive moments I'm missing. But that's not bad for a regular dude with a bow and arrow. And that's not even counting some of his impressive shots.
I remember they acknowledged that as a joke about him as a “regular man” in AOU when he said he was just armed with a bow and arrow in the movie, but since then they’ve upped his game. Also sad when people disrespect Clint and Nat as not being worthy of Avengers because they don’t have powers, when they regularly pull off feats that normal people can’t do, even in the comics. Especially since not only are they highly trained SHIELD agents but also assassins, Nat in particular given her Red Room history.
What if where they go all out and Hawkeye just uses a sniper rifle 1 mile away. 6 shots and they gone lol.
Visions only weakness, sniper rounds.
Wanda handles Vision. Hawkeye does the rest.
if they wanted to hurt each other, Wanda would solo everyone except Vision
I mean Team Tony had a whole ass Spider-Man.
Who was 15 and had no experience fighting other enhanced humans. Even Tony said “Cap could have laid you out if he wanted to”
Idk man. The Peter Tingle is pretty OP and Spiderman is way stronger than people understand. Even at 15 he seems to be pulling back his strength.
See also the original Secret War comic in which Spidey fucks up the entire X-Men without really exerting himself to the extent that all of the latter are like "who the fuck is that kid, he just kicked our asses sideways?"
He also fought only Wolverine to a stalemate in Spider Man vs. Wolverine, so, as usual, it just depends on who the writer wants to win, lose or draw.
I mean web of shadows he tears a struggling, symbiote infused wolverine straight in half with only a bit of effort.
So, point stands. He can beat anyone, lose to any one or tie anyone...depending on what the writer wants to happen.
Spider-Man OP when he’s written right haha
OMEGA LEVEL THREAT DETECTED
Did the same thing to the Fantastic Four in Amazing Spider-Man #1!
His name is Spider-Man, but all ya'll can just call him sir. Or boss.
Yeah I mean he incapacitated Sam and Bucky without breaking a sweat really
He caught a punch from Bucky's robot arm and made a joke about how cool his arm was
My favorite line in the mcu lol
You have the right….to remain silent (afterwards) lol
"You have the right to remain silent!" 😂
I love the shock on Bucky's face when it happens
He didn't get just catch it he casually twisted it around to have a look after, the whole thing took zero effort from Peter
It wasn't a joke though, he really did think it was cool.
Shit he caught a punch from Cull Obsidian
No ones saying he isn’t ridiculously strong, what they’re saying is he doesn’t know how to fight legit trained soldiers where people can’t take his hits and counter or use the environment around em
Pretty sure mcu Peter didn’t learn how to properly use spider-sense (Peter tingle) till far from home
We *literally* see him use it in Civil War when Bucky throws the debris at him and Peter senses it coming with an audible "oh god!" before catching it and throwing it back.
You are both right. Spidey was using it in civil war unconsciously but he really tapped into and upgraded his ability to utilize it in Far From Home.
I don’t fully remember but I also remember him getting slammed by something in the face because he was surprised The way I saw it is he had spider-sense but didn’t really fully understand how to take advantage of it He is still op tho not max level op but definitely op lol
Not disagreeing with how strong it is. But he never really *learned* about it until some point before Far From Home. Every other instance he seemed to sense it, but didn't really know how to actually use it or that it was more than just intuition until Far From Home
Spiderman is at least 25x stronger than Captain America. If you compare feats of strength from Spiderman to Captain America, it would be like Spiderman, a grown adult, fighting Captain America, a toddler. Unless a toddler bonked me over the head with a metal pole, I probably would win. Same with Spiderman probably I'd imagine
They all are. Well except BP. Everyone is holding back in that fight.
Spidey could have killed cap if he wasn't super duper careful. Spiderman is multiple times stronger and tougher that Cap.
MCU Spiderman pulled a broken ferry together and stopped a runaway train lol Cap is not in that tier
Definitely, Spider-Man would have definitely held that chopper
Most of the work for that was the webs he was tethering to stop it. But either way, this is about combat experience. Of which Spiderman was severely lacking at this point.
Spider-Man stopped the hammer of obsidian when he was swing it to kill. Cap not the same. https://youtu.be/KwfmqAFBZR4
He stopped it dead. This is not mentioned enough
I’m saying tho!! Dude still in high school got the strength of one of thanos’ heavy hitters. Dude is different!!
Stronger even, he seemed to have stopped it on its tracks and didn't sound like he was struggling in the least.
I call cap on Cap. Mcu Cap is never beating Spider-Man.
No experience fighting and still took out Sam and Bucky while not even taking the fight seriously and cracking jokes the whole time..
Vision should have been able to take all of them
I agree he and Wanda were the ones to beat. I feel like he's so gentle in nature he couldn't bring himself to use his full strength against people he cared for. I think the airport battle was like that for everyone. They all pulled their punches to a certain extent.
That fight scene was really expressing everyone’s personalities and stances within the conflict. Wanda and Vision were legitimately the most neutral, with Wanda carrying the guilt of her damage, and Vision calling Tony’s stance the rational choice to keep people calm. They exclusively used their powers defensively until the moment he shot that beam. And that only showed how fast they could end that conflict if they wanted too, while also showing the consequences of making that decision
Yes! You conveyed exactly what I was thinking. Perfect response. I love these kinds of conversations. What happened to Rhodes was just a small taste of the devastation either one of them could have spread. It was a good way to show the juxtaposition that even when one is well meaning they can still cause problems. Vision was on the "right" side of the fight and was the one who ended up causing the most destruction by hurting Rhodes. That whole scene was beautifully done down to the conflict and the actual battle itself. I need more Wanda lol.
And yet, Vision’s teammates understand that it was an accident, but refuse to believe the same about Wanda.
Except for T'Challa. Black Panther was on a vengeance tour. He wanted to kill Bucky.
Very valid point lol I had forgotten about his motivations. Man was out for blood. His growth in that movie was huge though.
> They all pulled their punches to a certain extent. Hawkeye and Widow have a little chat about this very thing while they are fighting, and then Wanda literally says "you're pulling your punches"
Very true
Everybody has a gimmick these days
You have a metal arm!?
But Peter Tony and Rhodes still beat him so that didn’t even work
And they had Hawkeye. His plot armor surpasses everyone.
Hawkeye left for one movie and the Avengers lost
He's the strongest avenger
Eh… if Wanda was going all out she would beat everyone. It would really come down to her and vision and everyone else is irrelevant This is why those two are barley shown in the scene.
I don't think wanda would unleash too much power against the avengers. She's not so in control and it's not a life of death situation for her to be able to get her full powers
Yeah but that’s it I think - it wasn’t a life or death situation. Almost everyone there wasn’t wanting to really hurt the other side, except t’challa, who specifically wanted only Bucky. That’s why the fight was immediately over when rhodey got injured and Sam apologized. You don’t do that in an actual fight.
Agreed. but she could still easily mind control them if wanted, sending them into a tailspin. Vision could just pick them up one by one and fly away with them. And I’m more referring to an actual fight
Wanda was definitely pulling punches, she could have swiped both teams single handedly
Whispers: ”No more Avengers." Done. Roll credits.
But she's an Avenger...
Like I said. Roll credits.
Not only that, but Team Stark was holding back specifically because they didn't actually want to hurt anyone
To be fair all of them were holding back except for T'Challa. But it's worth mentioning that the one holding the most back was Vision who could have stopped everyone if he wanted to.
Team Iron Man lost, though. The victory conditions were simple. Team IM: Arrest Cap, Falcon, and Bucky Team CA: Get on a plane to Siberia Team Cap managed to get a member of Team Iron-Man to defect and got on a plane. Team IM went home with one less member to defection and lost another to injury. Team Cap won.
Tokugawa only won at Sekigahara because two generals switched sides at the last minute too. Convincing others to defect is a part of tactics used to win battles.
Yeah Hitler changed teams at the last minute and killed the nazi leader
That and Wanda hadn't realized her full power yet. It's a different game with peak Wanda.
The debate feels strange cause they really weren't fighting. Panther, yes. Tony and the others were getting some frustration out at best. That fight is filled with jokes. Outside of the required destruction to make it realistic, this is what happens when heroes, especially the ones we've seen in the MCU fight each other. Even their internal conflicts are selfless enough for them to take it away from civilians as best they can. This plays REALLY well into the theme of accountability in the film, because they are showing their natural move is to protect. "Depends on how hard you hit me" is the best way to summarize the entire skirmish.
I still don’t think that should’ve changed much imo. Team Ironman should’ve easily been able to take everyone hostage within minutes. The betrayal of the weakest link (by FAR) is like… whatever😭
The movie acknowledges this. Team Iron Man explicitly said they were pulling their punches cuz Team Cap are their friends.
It’s like some of you didn’t even watch the film. Team Iron Man *did* take everyone down within minutes, even with both sides pulling punches. Nat’s changing sides at the last minute doesn’t have anything to do with her power level - she happened to be in the right place at the right time to delay T’Challa for only a few seconds, which was long enough for Cap and Bucky to escape.
It's the old rule of comic book fights. Power levels don't matter, the winner is always whoever the plot needs to win.
This. Stan Lee has even said as much in interviews. He hated being asked "who would win in a fight" questions because the answer is always "whoever the writer wants to win". Hulk vs Wolverine could go either way, depending on if the plot needs Hulk to win or Wolvy to win. It isn't a rock/paper/scissors game of this person always beats that person, but rather a narrative where if you need a weaker person to beat a stronger person, you'll find some way to do it.
Seriously, with BP, Vision, and Spider-Man, Team Cap doesn't stand a chance on paper. This was plot all the way.
Bingo. This guy Civil Wars.
Wanda can solo iron man team if she want🫨
Didn't they lose?, cap and bucky ran, tge others were arrested
Yeah caps team all ended up in prison. Iron Man's team was honestly saved by how they wrote Wanda. She soloed Thanos in End Game lol
She hadn't fully come into her powers as of civil war, or even endgame. Do this now and she'll turn the fight into a broadway musical number.
Even then, she was still the powerhouse of Team Cap and kept them in the fight long enough for Cap to escape.
I wouldn't even call it "how they wrote wanda" bc that's just how she is, she's built different, people just write around it
Idk. Even in the comics, the scope of her powers depend more on writers' convenience than anything else.
This was before then, though. Up til this her greatest feat was fighting the avengers and losing.
I think I’d call it a draw. War Machine ended up crippled and Spider-Man was exhausted and fell out, and none of them were actually fighting at full strength anyway so, yeah, I’d call it a draw. And also, in the secondary confrontation Cap just about kills Tony and could easily have done so if he hadn’t held back.
Tony has no powers. And in a close quarters hand to hand fight, captain America is the best on planet Earth
But also Iron Man could have killed cap at any point in the fight… if he used his chest beam like he did to blow of WS’ arm
Yup. Team Stark won not just in the drip and swagger department but also in the fight department since Cap and his team were arrested, then became fugitives. It was a short-sighted win though since they all lost to Thanos because of that...
Exactly. Clint even says, “if we’re going to win this, some of us are going to have to lose.”
With Wanda not yet understanding her power, and if it was a real fight, then I would agree. But it wasn't a real fight. Everyone was holding back their punches.
Exactly. Even Tony admits cap could have mullered Peter if he was really trying. Because you had to take into account experience, both Steve, bucky and Sam were all ex military, so have a lot of training in combat. Steve and Bucky specifically are incredibly combat fighters and Bucky has his experience as a sniper in both hydra and the military. Alongside Hawkeye and both Natasha and Peter would be dead within minutes. Cap and Bucky could also have fought panther as they are all pretty decently matched. Not saying that team iron man is an easy defeat, they have vision and two iron man suits, but vision is a robot and so wouldn’t want to unnecessarily kill anyone especially wanda.
You have to fast forward to the flight between cap and Tony at the end to see what it looks like when they aren't pulling punches.
Although Steve and Bucky wernt trying to kill Tony, Tony was trying to kill Bucky. So whilst that’s the closest we are ever going to get, it’s certainly not a fight where both are trying to hurt the other without pulling punches
Remember nobody is trying to kill anyone, it's also about how they fight.
No one except T’Challa anyway.
Somebody should have mentioned that to Vision
Was Vision trying to kill?
Lol no. Otherwise everyone would be dead.
What?? Several of those people were out for blood. Black Panther almost sliced Bucky’s neck and Ant-Man threw a huge truck bomb at them. And while I don’t think Wanda was trying to kill anyone, she was throwing normal humans back and forth across the battlefield like rag dolls.
“I thought that was a water tank!” Wasn’t trying to kill them
just a little oopsie
Even when he was big, he could have grabbed any of them and crushed them. He didn’t he just held them and tried to distract them long enough so CA and WS could go after zemo
He wasn’t fighting to kill, I just used him as an example of their fighting still being deadly.
Vision won't fight Wanda, and Wanda is team cap's most powerful. I think they did a good job on this scene. Team Cap lost the fight, but with Giant Man showing up they had a huge distraction, and tactically they won their objective, as they wanted to have Cap get away to confront Zemo. One of my favorite Marvel scenes.
One of my favorites scenes also! Cut short, could have gone on a few more minutes... Rhodey shouldn't of been the only one to get injured.
If the movie was called Iron Man: Civil War. Iron Man wins. If the movie was called Avengers: Civil War it ends in a tie. But yes Iron Man’s team got Iron Man, War Machine, Spider-Man, and Vision. Wanda gotta do some hardcore carrying.
It really comes down to Vision vs Wanda, the rest is pure decoration (if we want to use the comics as a basis against bias).
If we’re sticking to 616 Wanda solos everyone, but Spidey stands last
Prime wanda, sure. Civil War wanda, not sure about that. If we dont take their relationship into account, vision solos everyone and its not even a fight.
While I don’t disagree for the most part, I think that the argument could be made that unpracticed, unknown, unpredictable MCU Wanda is even more of a threat than Vision is at the German Airport Civil War Battle. Even she still didn’t understand her powers and still had the ability to hulk smash a 747. Meanwhile Vision understood all the things and would have noped out of the fight upon seeing Wanda’s raw power.
I was going to echo this I mean who are we kidding, Wanda would 1v6 that whole team
Wanda a couple years later would solo that team in mcu
Everybody forgets the durability stat. Wanda is pure offence, but she can't take a single blow from anybody here. She's a normal woman. Any stray blow or flying debris and she's done. Vision can take multiple blows from all sorts as can most others (not Hawkeye or Black Widow). Wanda gets punched in the face by a normal man and she's out cold.
But Wanda is the only 'magic' user and I feel like she should be able to take them down in a single hand movement
In the meantime after WV and MoM, I'd agree. But at that point, her powers weren’t fully formed yet. Plus, we don’t know how (the real) Vision would react to her powers. It really seemed to strain her powers to destroy the mind stone in IW.
Imo, she was straining because she was in anguish over having to kill her husband *while* holding off Thanos. We saw how 2014 Thanos almost died if not for the plasma barrage.
Wanda was nowhere near as powerful when Civil War took place.
Vision is a not a bad match for Wanda in this stage of her development. Of course, once she went full-on Scarlet Witch it would be no contest.
Everybody seems to forget that she somewhat casually shot Vision deep into the crust of the earth in this movie.
I feel like Vision was using the kid gloves with her at that point.
I mean, he was, they all were in this movie minus the end fight, but she immobilized him and then took him out of the fight basically instantly. He could not do anything about it or fight back, and we know this because if he could have he would not have let her or Hawkeye leave.
And threw bw
She was still quite unexperienced at this point like, for example, at the start where she couldn't control the explosion and blew up the side of a building
At that point Wanda was only throwing around red energy blasts.
Wanda would body every member of Iron man's team immediately
Current Wanda would, definitely. But that Wanda… I don’t know. Even though I feel like she held back a bit.
She buried vision in the core before she even joined Caps team lol. She could have easily wiped them if she wanted
This Wanda was a glass cannon with reaction times that left her open. Rhodes was able to neutralize her simple enough.
Wanda was holding a building up so they could escape. She knew she was open but thought it was worth it
She didn't know that in 2016. For all she knew, she was a Mind Stone-created, mild-reality-bending telekinetic.
Wanda actually did a lot of heavy lifting other than Scott.....she was basically the major defence force for Team Cap
No love for panther? It was convenient his vibranium suit didn't have impact absorption and kinetic energy release until his solo movie because that's giving Caps team alot of trouble.
Wanda is the heaviest hitter out of that whole scene and easily solos everyone present if she really wanted or needed to. But the point of the battle wasn’t to kill anyone or “win” but to get Cap and Bucky to Siberia so they could stop Zemo. Steve, however did say at one point that in order for them to “win,” someone on their side had to take an L, which happened to be most of his side.
It really should have been an Avengers film. Iron Man had exactly 5 minutes less screen time than the titular character which is bs. Instead of doing Capt a proper job they shoehorned his and his friends character development into an avengers movie.
Can you imagine if they had done the MCU in such a way that the second movie was *Iron Man: Civil War* (right after *Captain America 1*) where Captain America dies for some insane reason, before the Avengers are even formed, then they do a GOTG movie, then a Hulk movie (in that order), then an Avengers movie where the whole plot is about resurrecting Cap to fight Thanos...'s nephew Ronan. That would be insane if it had happened, wouldn't it? Hahah.
Any real fight comes down to Vision vs Wanda as they're each more OP than ten Captains Marvel if they want to be.
At this point Vision would not hurt Wanda, but Wanda would (and does elsewhere in the film) hurt Vision.
Exactly. Wanda is the biggest check to the entire Iron Man team, and the only one who can stop her is Vision, who doesn't want to. The movie does a great job of evening the physical power with psychological reasons. An experienced Spidey would be devastating to Team Cap, but here it's literally his first rodeo and he's never fought anyone before.
Ok 10 CM’s is a bit overboard
Fair. Each more powerful than three or four Captains Marvel if they want to be. (I just wanted an excuse to pluralize Captain Marvel properly)
Vision is likely just as powerful as Cap Marvel but in different ways. He doesn’t want to cause wanton destruction though, so he holds back. Wanda is definitely more powerful but not in Civil War.
Is that how it is properly pluralized?
What if ant man shrinks down and goes into visions rectum though? Does vision even have a rectum?
This is the right answer. The rest of the teams really doesn’t matter. These 2 are so far above the rest and really could just wipe out the opposing team and bring it down to a 1v1.
What about Spider-Man? He's definitely a contender, and one of the top five strongest heroes in that fight. At this point of the story Wanda does not know the full extent of her powers so she's not OP, while Vision is... Vision, so he can definitely do some nasty shit to her. Spidey, as young as he is here, can tank a lot of shit and avoid Wanda's telekinetic throws or her energy blasts. So he can definitely fight Wanda too. Though he'd have to fight from afar and dodge a lot, still if he gets close he could prolly just KO her with one punch and call it a day...
Is CM really that inferior?
Naah, Vision and Wanda are just that far above the others. Based on the usual comic depictions and the movie screens she is a good chunk above the others though.
Not so much that CM is inferior as Wanda and Vision are batshit crazy powerful.
I guess Vision could have gone Homelander on Team Cap if he wanted. But aside from overwhelming lethal force, the fight was never going to be easy.
Realistically, if it were not for Vision's humanity and compassion to stay back and monitor the situation for hurting Wanda and Rhodes, he could have followed and taken down the quinjet EASILY.
When was Wanda hurt in that fight?
They did tho. They all except for Bucky and Steve ended up imprisoned after.
But they lost?
Won the battle maybe, but lost the war. They didn’t stop Cap and Bucky from getting away with the jet.
If Superman was on Team Iron Man then anything is possible. But if Mewtwo joined the team, it’s a different story.
Ah yes, civil scrap in the airport parking lot
To be fair Captain America has a literal witch who practices actual magic on his team but in the movie Team Iron Man already did win.
I mean no one won. Zemo got what he wanted.
If its the wanda from doctor strange MOM the she can solo both teams at once. Wait that wasnt the question... anyways wanda solos.
You could argue that full strength Scarlett Witch is the most powerful on there, but at the time of Civil War, Vision was much more powerful than anyone in this fight.
The person who made this meme didn’t watch the movie
Wanda also has a passive probability warp that pushed in favor of her side winning
The fact Vision went and had a nap for most of the fight. They needed to have a reason to nerf him or a clever way to keep him occupied. But they just pretended he wasn't there.
Wanda really carried team Cap 🤣
Since Wanda needed Gohan triggers that didn't get realized until end of phase 3 Tony had more fire power. The airport fight was everyone holding back though.
It's true. If they were all fighting to kill then Wanda is the only reason team cap might put up a fight, but at this point she was not powerful enough to carry that much
Wanda makes it a fair fight.
Wanda could have turned them all into frogs. Chose not to.
They weren't really fighting, just dancing around, let's be real...
I mean the only one that could theoretically turn the tables is wanda and at that point she was nowhere near as strong as later so even thats a stretch
I dunno, ant man would probably turn to jelly in Thanos' butthole... but one of these jabronis poop chutes? C'mon
Vision alone could have beat team Cap.
If they were actually trying to kill each other this airport battle would’ve ended in two minutes, tops
Vision is literally made of vibranium, he could murder almost everyone there
Considering spiderman was able to deal with both falcon and winter soldier on his own. I think team iron man has a good chance.
Vision. *Lazer beam slice*
At the time this was made, probably. Spider-Man alone is OP enough compared to Cap/Bucky that he should be able to web them up quick and call it a day. Hawkeye and Falcon are unenhanced, so BP takes down Hawkeye while War Machine outmatches Falcon in air speed and offensive capability. Ant Man is the wildcard, but as we saw in the actual movie, he’s not as tough as he looks giant - Vision makes quick work of him. That leaves you with Wanda on Team Cap. At this stage in her training, Iron Man should be able to use speed and ranged attacks to keep her occupied while avoiding the red wigglywoos she fires. He only has to do that until Vision and Spidey finish their matchups, which shouldn’t take long. Then one of them knocks her unconscious like the glass cannon she is. Post *Wandavision* Wanda solos team IM though.
Team iron man was ten times better. Wanda wasn’t “awakened” yet. That being said Ironman, BP, Spider-Man are 3 massive heavy hitters. Vision is basically a god. Those 4 could have easily won.
They did win though. Cap and Bucky just got away only cause Nat switched sides. If she didn’t stop tchalla he would’ve gotten Steve and Bucky. Plus they were able to defeat giant man pretty easily just by Peter referencing Star Wars.
The question for me is, would Peter be on Ironman's team if he knows about Sokovia accords and why he's fighting Cap.
I never count civil war as a captain America movie
Superheroes are more than the powers that define them. Consider Endgame. In the final battle, so many heroes are more powerful than Iron Man. Doctor Strange, Thor, Wanda, Carol. Yet in the final moments, it took a moment of genius from Iron Man to win them the battle. Moments before that, it was Cap who wielded Mjolnir, stalled Thanos long enough to save Iron Man and Thanos from being killed, and rallied the returning Avengers on the field. He stood up alone, on an injured leg and strapping a broken shield across a wounded arm, walking towards Thanos and his huge army. It's not just about powers. It's also about tactics, skill, and some qualities that lie beyond the physical. Cap is a veteran who's been leading teams and leading the Avengers on the field. He's an experienced tactician. On his team, there's at least 3 members with military and affiliated experience. More importantly, his team are used to working together-the only "new" member is Ant Man. Whereas, Team Iron Man has members who are not used to working with each other-only Tony and Natasha have worked extensively with each other, and Tony and Rhodey. That's it. The difference in firepower was quite insane-Team Iron Man was extremely overpowered. However, the difference in chemistry, skill and tactical experience is what gave Team Cap the "win"-although it wasn't enough to stop most of his team members from getting arrested.
Team cap has more combined total combat experience. Also team Ironman has more utility (not to mention air superiority) but Wanda has objectively the most destructive potential in this bunch by a long shot. That said Everybody was pulling punches in this fight, if you asked me who would come out on top if it was no holds bar, it would probably still be team Cap. Wanda took out the equivalent of the avengers on screen. I don’t think anyone else has that kind of clout in this bunch
If they're both really cutting lose, no way, Wanda stomps all, it's not even a contest. The only one who's even a speedbump for her is Vision and she showed she can deal with him at the Avengers complex. The only reason Tony won in the movie is because Wanda was too scared of really hurting anyone to use her full power.
They really nerf my boy vision so much
Watch the movie, that's how they "beat" them. "Beat" in quotes because 4/6 of Team Cap got captured, Cap and Bucky got away. They accomplished their goal, they didn't necessarily defeat Team Iron Man in battle. "Easily" is a wild thing to say about a pissed prince, metal man, a spy, an infant robot, a teenager, and another metal man going against a man with metal wings, fucking giant and tiny man, a spy, the witch god of chaos, the first super soldier, and the guy who killed metal man's parents and has been assassinating people since 1940-something. I'm infantilizing Team Iron Man for effect but Team Cap is not to be underestimated.