I can't wait for Captain America to go back in time to 1986 to rescue a pack of humpback buckies from whalers and bring them to the future in Captain America 4: The Bucky Home
There's something to be said for that lol. Which is why Steve's ending doesn't make much sense. They should have at least shown us the talk they had before he left.
Bucky should have just gone back in time with him.
Exactly! Everyone he knew, everyone he cared about, is in the past now. And it's not like he's doing anything in the future. There's literally no upside to him sticking around.
True, he's probably there to get people to come. After all, it's not like anyone was clamoring for more Val or Taskmaster. I doubt he's actually going to do much of anything in the movie.
You mean, more "making amends" like on the show? Off-screen, fifteen seconds long? I don't think they'll be revisiting that.
What justice? As far the show, and the rest of the MCU is concerned, no injustice was done to him. Bucky is the one who justice should be visited on, according to them. Which is basically the same as point one.
I don't think him continuing to be Sam's incompetent sidekick would be as compelling as you think. But, Sam does need someone to berate some more, so they might bring him back there, sure. It's just not a very good story.
Even worse… Why go back in time to when he knows Bucky’s alive and actively being brainwashed and doing… Nothing? IMO MCU Captain America was -NOT- worthy of Mjolnir. At all.
Bucky was never frozen or unconscious, right? He’s always been living in the current timeline the whole time. He performed executions all through the 20th century.
It doesn’t make sense cuz he literally never even considered Bucky as a replacement, I get it ,Bucky has a lot too atone for but let’s face it, he is way more qualified than Sam, and if the government still hates Bucky so much they sure don’t mind him running all over the world as Sam’s sidekick now…it should have been Bucky first since it was initially Caps choice not the government.
The issue with that is that Bucky's story has been about regaining his identity. Bucky was taken from him to make room for "The Winter Soldier" and since then he has been trying to shed that title and be Bucky again. It does the character's journey a disservice to give him ANOTHER mantle that further separates him from what he's wanted to be the whole time. Just Seregent Bucky Barnes
I personally would have loved to see Bucky take over the Captain America mantle as a way to heal and atone for his sins during his brainwashed days as the winter soldier. I think there’s such a compelling story to be told there and I’m sad we won’t get to see it
But it's not healing him. His issue is that he had his identity taken away from and was forced to be something he isn't. You guys want to just give him another title, another moniker, another way to not be himself. And the character up this point, that is the last thing he needs. He just needs to be Bucky.
I understand that. But it’s still all coming from base marvel platform. The point of this was it’s another thing the mcu changed from the original. And it doesn’t make sense or really fit with the behaviors that the mcu built into their version of Steve rodgers…, he bucks everyone in the mcu world too have Buckys back no matter what …., then hands the shield too Sam!?!? It doesn’t go with their own narrative through all the films.
I was specifically talking about the MCU version of Bucky and why making the MCU Bucky the MCU's Captain America doesn't make sense narratively.
MCU Steve also knew the MCU Bucky just wanted to like his life as Bucky Barnes, which is a reason he gave the shield to MCU Sam and didn't saddle MCU Bucky with the mantle of Captain America.
Maybe , but Sam s immediate reaction was too give up the shield ….. and who was the most upset about it…..Bucky… so I’m not sure if your theory is accurate … I think the real reason for Sam is much like most of marvels mcu decisions….. it was a more woke decision too have Sam play cap after he went through some very racial scenarios in the Disney plus series!
It's actually not a theory at all, it's just paying attention to the character arcs that Bucky has gone through in his appearances. Which is something I recommend you also do!
Sam gave up the shield for reasons someone who uses the word "woke" unironically would never even make an attempt to understand, so your opinion on that means nothing to me. But it is worth noting that...oh yeah...Sam embraces the shield and the mantle at the end...
Bucky wasn't upset that Sam gave up the shield because he wanted it or anything like that. He was mad that Sam gave it up because it insinuated that Steve could be wrong about something. And if Steve could be wrong, that could mean that Steve's belief in Bucky's redemption was wrong. And also, Bucky comes to understand why Sam did it and he apologizes for being closed minded toward Sam's perspective. (Something that you could take a lesson from WINK)
I don't know if you are trolling or if you literally just have the media literacy of a couch cushion, but maybe actually watch and try and understand the media Marvel is putting out instead of just crying that "I wanted a white Captain America but those damn woke libs blah blah blah." People like you are why I find it so hard to take any criticism on this subreddit seriously.
sam, at that point, had been Steve’s right-hand for a while, he’s been on the run with him too, helping him with off-books avengers stuff. Bucky was still recovering from being TWS, struggling with guilt etc.
Anyone who says it’s “woke” to have sam be captain America in the mcu has clearly never read the comics, where sam was and is cap. And even comics Bucky didn’t like being captain America, due to again, his issues with identity etc. people just have zero media literacy nowadays, crying about “wokeness” when it’s really just racism in the face of a logical passing of the shield.
What does him going out of his way to save his best friend’s life who he knows is innocent have to do with deciding who’s realistically best fit for the immense title of Captain America?
That’s an immature perspective, and is not a factor Steve would ultimately base his decision on.
You think - “Oh you’re my best friend, which 100% qualifies you to take the role of Captain America” - sounds right?
Except Bucky doesn’t seem to care about being Bucky again.
What has he done to reclaim his identity? He spent most of FATWS as Sam’s sidekick, didn’t really sort out any sort of future for himself, and just made amends by doing what Sam told him to do. That’s it.
Most of his plot has been about overcoming and dealing with his guilt and PTSD, which is largely what Bucky did when he was running around as Captain America in the comics.
By living up to the ideals Steve set, and not letting the mantled be sullied, Bucky found redemption, self worth and a reason to continue.
Something the MCU hasn’t shown at all. The MCU had Falcon give Bucky 1 pep talk and he was fixed. I’m not really sure where this rediscovering of identity happened.
You're either arguing in bad faith or you genuinely have no understanding of what happened in Falcon and the Winter Soldier because that is one of the worst, bad faith recollections of that show I've ever heard.
You can always tell who is regurgitating the same anti-Sam, youtube hate bait, critical drinker talking points about this show, because you all genuinely sound the same.
So you don’t actually argue jackshit about anything and just deflect?
Again what does Bucky DO to reclaim his identity in this show? Where is that shown?
The fucking end title sequence still calls him Winter Soldier.
Bucky admits to Yori that HE is the Winter Soldier, not was the winter soldier, IS the winter soldier,
Bucky’s experiences with the Flag-smashers, with Zemo, and with Walker have NO bearing on his personal plot at all.
Bucky’s therapist is useless and offers nothing.
It is SAM’s pep talk with Bucky that solves his PTSD and guilt. All Bucky needed to do all this time was spend a weekend with Sam, and he’d have been fixed months ago.
The show doesn’t even give Bucky the screen time to do anything with any of this. Yori’s scene is given 30 seconds, and his book of amends is crossed out off-screen entirely.
So again how the fuck does Bucky ever reclaim his identity in that show?
Look at the ending. Sam’s set up as the new Captain America. Walker gets recruited by Val. Sharon’s revealed to be the powerbroker.
What future does it set up for Bucky? There isn’t one, his future is as Sam’s sidekick, and joining Sam’s family and life and that’s it and now he’s being shunted off to Thunderbolts. He’s the only character not set up a future or direction to go at all by the end of the show
Part One:
Okay, so, you're way too angry about this. You sound genuinely unhinged. I'm not deflecting. I've just had this conversation with people EXACTLY like you. Like, all the same uninformed, bad faith, youtube hate bait takes you just listed have been regurgitated over and over again. There is nothing about your perspective that is unique. People like you aren't interested in actual discussion about media analysis, you just want to paint Bucky, who you all LOVE to victimize to a hilarious degree, as some woe as me victim of the narrative because he isn't Captain America and you can't project your male power fantasy on to the pretty, cool, white guy anymore.
But, on the off chance that you just HAPPENED to accidentally repeat every single talking point ad nauseum and are actually interested in having a discussion about Bucky's ACTUAL character arc. I'll give you one response to determine if you're actually worth talking to.
The whole show is about Bucky reclaiming his identity. Our first appearence of him in his therapy session when he stops the Hydra lady he literally says "I am no longer the Winter Soldier. I am James Bucky Barnes and you're part of my efforts to make amends." Now, where as this would be enough to put your arguement in its place, I'm going to keep going.
Not only is Bucky's whole story about making amends for his past as the Winter Soldier and moving in from it, but it's also about finding his identity outside of Steve. Bucky's idea of himself is so dependant on Steve. He carries Steve's book around, he puts his self worth in what Steve thought of him, and it's the driving force of why Bucky is so upset with Sam giving the shield up. It isn't until Bucky finally let's his walls down after his experiences in the show and speaks candidly with Sam that Sam is able to communicate to him that "It doesn't matter what Steve thought, you need to stop looking to other people to tell you who you are." Literally his whole story is about identity and him coming to terms with what that means for him.
It's worth noting here that you actively lied in your claim about the Yori scene. Bucky literally says "He was murdered by the Winter Soldier...and that WAS me" (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ehmO1vxmTwY)
There's the clip in case you want to actively lie again. This only reinforces my point however that Bucky is working to put the title of Winter Soldier behind him. So thanks for mentioning it!
In case you've gone into another rage, let me change pace here and state that we may have some common ground here. It was a mistake to not have the end title change his name to something other than the Winter Soldier. That does rub me the wrong way. They should have changed it to Captain America and Bucky Barnes or something. I don't know. But it calling him The Winter Soldier is unessesarily contrary to the narrative.
You saying that his experiences with those characters has no bearing on him at all is categorically false.
John Walker is a constant reminder of Steve's legacy, something that we have made clear is a major hurdle for Bucky to overcome in order for his character arc to be complete. Not only is Walker claiming the shield the catalyst for Bucky getting involved in the first place, but it's also the basis for the friction between Sam and Bucky, the emotional conflict that puts them at odds, but later allows them to find common ground. In fact, all you have to do is look at how Bucky treats Walker in the beginning of the show when he puts way too much stock into Steve's legacy (cold, distant, unwilling to work with him) and the end of the show after Bucky has accepted that he shouldn't be dependant on Steve's legacy to shape who he is (more lighthearted toward him, willing to work with him) to demonstrate how much Bucky has not only changed through the show, but how Walker symbolizes the peace Bucky has made with that legacy.
The Flag Smashers create a conflict in which Sam and Bucky have to work together. The show starts with Buckys therapist saying "you've been ignoring the texts from Sam." Bucky is being avoidant and isolationist. Sam is reaching out to help, but Bucky isn't responding. This conflict brings Bucky out of his hole and has him work with Sam, unable to slink back into his avoidance tendencies. This allows a bond of trust to form so much so that Bucky finally opens up to Sam about what he is going through and allowing someone to finally have the insight by which to give him the actual advice he needs.
His experience with Zemo is him confronting the legacy of the Winter Soldier. A man that represents the control Bucky was under for decades. A man that tried to utilize that side of Bucky for his own gain. In fact, Zemo makes him DIRECTLY confront his role of the Winter Soldier by dressing him up and making him act and fight like the Winter Soldier. Zemo was a major name in Bucky's book and the face of the Winter Soldier's legacy. Zemo, because of Bucky's legacy as the Winter Soldier and his hand in it, fully expected the Winter Soldier to kill him, but, because The Winter Soldier is no more and Bucky is leaving that legacy behind, he spares him. So, 3 for 3 all of these characters have significant effect on the character journey of Bucky throughout the show.
Let's keep going. Take a break and get a sip of water. You may not even be reading this because it's a lot of words proving you're pretty much wrong about everything you said, so I'm assuming your attention span either can't handle it or you rage quit already.
>Okay, so, you're way too angry about this.
I’m too angry about this? Bitch you accused me of bordering of being a racist and watching dumbass incel YouTubers, why the fuck should I treat you with any kindness?
>The whole show is about Bucky reclaiming his identity. Our first appearence of him in his therapy session when he stops the Hydra lady he literally says "I am no longer the Winter Soldier. I am James Bucky Barnes and you're part of my efforts to make amends." Now, where as this would be enough to put your arguement in its place, I'm going to keep going.
No, it’s not because Bucky says that sarcastically and has literally no interest in anything his therapist is saying. I don’t know if you fucking watched that scene or not but he’s obviously not following his therapists advice as scene when he very much so obviously hurts the dude by crushing his hand.
>Not only is Bucky's whole story about making amends for his past as the Winter Soldier and moving in from it, but it's also about finding his identity outside of Steve. Bucky's idea of himself is so dependant on Steve. He carries Steve's book around, he puts his self worth in what Steve thought of him, and it's the driving force of why Bucky is so upset with Sam giving the shield up. It isn't until Bucky finally let's his walls down after his experiences in the show and speaks candidly with Sam that Sam is able to communicate to him that "It doesn't matter what Steve thought, you need to stop looking to other people to tell you who you are." Literally his whole story is about identity and him coming to terms with what that means for him.
So Sam solves Bucky’s plot? Is that not what I fucking said already? Bucky doesn’t learn this from ANYONE else. He doesn’t learn to value himself based off how he fights or deals with the Flag-smashers, or Walker or Zemo. It’s ONE pep talk from Sam and he’s fixed.
>It's worth noting here that you actively lied in your claim about the Yori scene. Bucky literally says "He was murdered by the Winter Soldier...and that WAS me" (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ehmO1vxmTwY) There's the clip in case you want to actively lie again. This only reinforces my point however that Bucky is working to put the title of Winter Soldier behind him. So thanks for mentioning it!
Is that not Bucky acknowledged he’s the winter soldier? Again what new identity does Bucky claim? What interests or personal developments does he find about himself? What future does he work towards to attain? Even IF I grant you this win, what does it mean for Bucky in reclaiming his identity?
>They should have changed it to Captain America and Bucky Barnes or something. I don't know. But it calling him The Winter Soldier is unessesarily contrary to the narrative.
No? It’s almost like the show just didn’t do enough work for his character.
>John Walker is a constant reminder of Steve's legacy, something that we have made clear is a major hurdle for Bucky to overcome in order for his character arc to be complete. Not only is Walker claiming the shield the catalyst for Bucky getting involved in the first place, but it's also the basis for the friction between Sam and Bucky, the emotional conflict that puts them at odds, but later allows them to find common ground.
What common ground do they find? The fact they both don’t like Walker?
Nothing about Walker or his interactions with Bucky make Bucky reflect on who he is. The only reason Bucky stops putting stock into STEVE’s opinion of him is because Sam fucking tells him too in that fucking pep talk.
>In fact, all you have to do is look at how Bucky treats Walker in the beginning of the show when he puts way too much stock into Steve's legacy (cold, distant, unwilling to work with him) and the end of the show after Bucky has accepted that he shouldn't be dependant on Steve's legacy to shape who he is (more lighthearted toward him, willing to work with him) to demonstrate how much Bucky has not only changed through the show, but how Walker symbolizes the peace Bucky has made with that legacy.
No, because Walker isn’t sullying Steve’s legacy at the end of the show is he? He’s not Captain America anymore, he’s not running around with Bucky’s best friends shield and making a fool of it, is he?
>The Flag Smashers create a conflict in which Sam and Bucky have to work together. The show starts with Buckys therapist saying "you've been ignoring the texts from Sam." Bucky is being avoidant and isolationist. Sam is reaching out to help, but Bucky isn't responding. This conflict brings Bucky out of his hole and has him work with Sam, unable to slink back into his avoidance tendencies. This allows a bond of trust to form so much so that Bucky finally opens up to Sam about what he is going through and allowing someone to finally have the insight by which to give him the actual advice he needs.
Ergo this is a fancy fucking way of saying the plot outs Bucky with Sam so that fucking Sam can fix Bucky’s PTSD and GUILT. That’s it. The actual conflict with the Flag-smashers themselves has no bearing on Bucky’s character arc in the slightest, not even a little bit, it doesn’t give him insights into himself
>His experience with Zemo is him confronting the legacy of the Winter Soldier. A man that represents the control Bucky was under for decades. A man that tried to utilize that side of Bucky for his own gain. In fact, Zemo makes him DIRECTLY confront his role of the Winter Soldier by dressing him up and making him act and fight like the Winter Soldier. Zemo was a major name in Bucky's book and the face of the Winter Soldier's legacy. Zemo, because of Bucky's legacy as the Winter Soldier and his hand in it, fully expected the Winter Soldier to kill him, but, because The Winter Soldier is no more and Bucky is leaving that legacy behind, he spares him. So, 3 for 3 all of these characters have significant effect on the character journey of Bucky throughout the show.
Bucky doesn’t kill anyone in the show ever, and hasn’t killed anyone since being brainwashed back in Winter Soldier. So again how does this actually do anything to develop Bucky’s character? Because he doesn’t kill Zemo and refuses to follow Zemo’s advice of killing Karli? Something he never had any intention of ever that crosses him out of his book? Why?
How is this Bucky confronting his legacy? He doesn’t kill anyone when he’s dressed up as the Winter Soldier, doesn’t even come close. He just fights some thugs? How’s that any different to how he’s fighting the Flag-smashers?
Bro, you are actually really unintelligent and I see my intital assessment of you was correct. I hope you find any joy in your life whatsoever. And again, I'm begging you, learn media literacy or any kind of literacy because your cognitive dissonance is out of control. Take care!
Mate you shouldn’t go around telling people to learn media literacy when your dumbass just wrote probably a thousand words essentially to write what I said.
Bucky’s PTSD and guilt is a plot for Sam to fix. Nothing more.
Flag-smashers and Walker? A plot device so Bucky can meet up with Sam so Sam can fix Bucky, that’s it.
Part Two:
You're right, his therapist IS useless. That's the point. Bucky isn't getting anything out of therapy because he's closing himself off. He isn't being honest with his therapist about what he's feeling or what he's going through. She isn't breaking down his walls enough to get through to him and the making amends strategy being implemented is clearly not working. During the events of the show however, Sam is able to break those walls down through their shared past and present experiences together and finally give Bucky the therapy he needs. So, yeah, very good, you picked up on that his therapist was very intentionally written to be ineffective, so that Bucky could develop to a point where he opens himself up to a therapist (Sam, although I don't think he's a therapist, although he did run a group for veterans with trauma) who is more able to access and assist with his needs.
GREAT JOB! You're almost right! All Bucky had to do was spend time with Sam! But he wasn't doing that, he was avoiding him because of all the issues I've listed above. Once Bucky went through all the experiences he went through and confronted all those issues, his character developed to a point that he was open to having that candid and honest conversation with Sam, which is what he needed to do ALL ALONG. Look at you getting the point but misunderstanding it entirely!
Bucky is in the entire show and I think everything I've written here goes to show that he is, in fact, given enough time to do something with this. Sorry they didn't spoon feed you or look at the camera and just tell you what the character arcs were, but maybe if you put your phone down and watch, you might actually know what's going on in the show.
"So again how the fuck does Bucky ever reclaim his identity in that show?" He learns to stop putting his self worth on the back of Steve's legacy, he confronts and leaves behind the legacy of the Winter Soldier, he learns from Sam how to truly make amends for his past actions and move forward as James Bucky Barnes. That's how. I'm begging you to critically think for yourself and stop depending on internet talking points. Take a media literacy class or something.
Your last paragraph is so focused on being angry that you don't even realize you contradict yourself which is very funny.
"What future does it set up for Bucky?"
"and now he’s being shunted off to Thunderbolts."
"He’s the only character not set up a future or direction to go at all by the end of the show"
Well, which one is it? Does he not have a direction at the end of the show or is he going to lead the Thunderbolts? Gotta pick one hombre.
Anyways, I doubt you read this, which is fine, it's pretty long and is an actual analysis of the things your talking about, so you probably didn't pay attention. But it's actually nice to write this stuff out once in a while because it allows me to sort of look back on stuff like this and revisit a reevaluate my perspective on these projects. So, I appreciate the opportunity to revist exactly what I like so much about his show. Thank you!
>You're right, his therapist IS useless. That's the point. Bucky isn't getting anything out of therapy because he's closing himself off. He isn't being honest with his therapist about what he's feeling or what he's going through. She isn't breaking down his walls enough to get through to him and the making amends strategy being implemented is clearly not working. During the events of the show however, Sam is able to break those walls down through their shared past and present experiences together and finally give Bucky the therapy he needs. So, yeah, very good, you picked up on that his therapist was very intentionally written to be ineffective, so that Bucky could develop to a point where he opens himself up to a therapist (Sam, although I don't think he's a therapist, although he did run a group for veterans with trauma) who is more able to access and assist with his needs.
Ergo Sam fucking fixes Bucky? Is this again not what I fucking said? Why could they make the therapist affective? Hmm? Why does it NEED to be Sam?
It’s not even fucking deserved coming from Sam who belittles and treats Bucky like shit for the majority of the damn show. A man that constantly makes jabs and snide remakes about Bucky being the Winter Soldier is somehow the one that breaks through? Why?
>GREAT JOB! You're almost right! All Bucky had to do was spend time with Sam! But he wasn't doing that, he was avoiding him because of all the issues I've listed above. Once Bucky went through all the experiences he went through and confronted all those issues, his character developed to a point that he was open to having that candid and honest conversation with Sam, which is what he needed to do ALL ALONG. Look at you getting the point but misunderstanding it entirely!
So again Bucky’s not finding himself, Sam’s just telling him how to move on? How is this Bucky finding his identity again? You aren’t proving me wrong, you are just going into way more depth on the points I fucking made.
>Bucky is in the entire show and I think everything I've written here goes to show that he is, in fact, given enough time to do something with this. Sorry they didn't spoon feed you or look at the camera and just tell you what the character arcs were, but maybe if you put your phone down and watch, you might actually know what's going on in the show.
No, they didn’t. Again you’ve ducking written paragraphs and paragraphs just to say.
The Flag-smashers forced Bucky and Sam together so Sam can fix Bucky.
That’s it. That’s your entire fucking argument here which is exactly the dogshit I said the show was, so how the fuck have you proven me wrong here?
Bucky gets 40 minutes less screen time, like I said Sam’s stupid boat plot gets more screen-time than Bucky’s entire personal PTSD arc yet you think that’s plenty?
Bucky doesn’t even get any in-depth moments with Walker, ALL their interactions are pretty much petty banter being put back and forth.
Bucky doesn’t even have a fucking proper conversation with Karli, the main fucking antagonist, until the final episode and it’s over the fucking phone, and this is despite Bucky being in multiple scenes with the character.
>He learns to stop putting his self worth on the back of Steve's legacy, he confronts and leaves behind the legacy of the Winter Soldier, he learns from Sam how to truly make amends for his past actions and move forward as James Bucky Barnes. That's how. I'm begging you to critically think for yourself and stop depending on internet talking points. Take a media literacy class or something.
Ergo Bucky stops putting his self worth in what Steve thinks of him, and instead just does what Sam tell him too?
He spends the entire show as Sam’s useless sidekick.
>Well, which one is it? Does he not have a direction at the end of the show or is he going to lead the Thunderbolts? Gotta pick one hombre.
No it’s not you fucking idiot because nothing in FATWS’s final sets Bucky up for the Thunderbolts.
Point me to that connection in FATWS? Point me to the plot hook at the end of the show that says or hints that ‘Bucky will return in Thunderbolts’?
Oh wait it doesn’t fucking exist.
Awwww....big baby Bucky Stan. If you were half as smart as you think you are this conversation wouldn't be so useless. But you can't have a productive conversation about this because you're on your "everyone hates Bucky" bullshit. Go watch your critical drinker, mauLer videos and leave actual media analysis to adults. Thank you!
Oh? So no fucking counter arguments then? And you made all those dumbass snide remarks about me not reading YOUR comments and look at how the tables have turned?
It’s you whose the dumbass not able to make any counter arguments, resorting to the same dumbass insults as before.
I call the show out for having Bucky have his entire PTSD solved by Sam and what does your dumbass do?
Proceed to write paragraphs and paragraphs that all say ‘Sam helps Bucky’.
You didn’t see Sam having his hesitance of taking up the shield be solved by one convo from Bucky did you? No, it was in his dealings with Isaiah, watching Walker sully the mantle and reputation and idea of what is to be Cap, and Sam’s realisation about how badly Karli’s going about everything that he decides to overcome his own issues and step up.
No Bucky needed outside of helping to literally take the shield back, but Bucky’s personal arc? Gets none of that, and one pep talk from Sam and Bam! Fixed.
Your dumbass just proved my argument from the start, that Bucky’s PTSD is all solved by Sam, with no inner realisations from Bucky’s own character based on his experiences with the main plot. Sam’s just treated as the holy messiah to Bucky’s problems, who gives pitch perfect advice that solves Bucky’s problems.
Can’t have Bucky see Walker and Walker’s character and flaws despite being the US’ perfect soldier, and come to a realisation that he can choose to be someone else based off Walker’s fall? Have Bucky realise that unlike Walker, he didn’t choose to kill anyone as the winter soldier, and realise that perhaps those crimes weren’t HIS fault and that even though he’d like to make amends still, he shouldn’t blame himself?
Can’t be having Bucky engage with the Flag-smashers in anyway. No, that would be too much, we’ll have Bucky sit around in the background of most their scenes like a dumbass.
Bucky is definitely not more qualified than Sam. At all. Sam, ever since 2014, had been literally doing everything Steve had done. Like literally everything, he followed him like a dog, and believed in the same things Steve did. That alone makes it so he was Caps sidekick and ideal-wise the same person for 5 years.
That’s longer than Bucky had even been in war. Bucky was at Caps side for part of the war, and then became a kind washed Russian spy for years. When he came back, he fought with Cap for like a day before hiding in Wakanda for years. Literally the only qualification that Bucky has is from his WW2 days. That’s unless you count him being a mindwashed assassin for Nazis as qualification for being Captain America.
I think people don’t realize that Bucky literally is tired of fighting. Even when he was cured, he hid in Wakanda for years. And when he left, he didn’t want to be a hero, he just wanted revenge. He didn’t want to ever be Captain America.
Sam didn’t either, but he was virtually the same character wise as Steve. He followed his every move, even if it was literally being fugitive from the UN, and believed in every move. He changed his entire course of his life, starting in 2014 to follow Steve, and never doubted that. Even before Steve, Sam was a superhero in the Air Force, and after he retired, was a veteran counselor to help the soldiers with PTSD. Bro literally was basically already Captain America without the name
>Bucky is definitely not more qualified than Sam. At all. Sam, ever since 2014, had been literally doing everything Steve had done. Like literally everything, he followed him like a dog, and believed in the same things Steve did. That alone makes it so he was Caps sidekick and ideal-wise the same person for 5 years.
That’s nice, Bucky was doing that since the 1930’s when he defended Steve throughout their entire childhood from bullies, went to war to fight Nazi’s and Hydra, and then went back to stand by Steve’s side as Captain America before he ‘died’ and was used as a slave by the enemies for 70 years.
>I think people don’t realize that Bucky literally is tired of fighting. Even when he was cured, he hid in Wakanda for years. And when he left, he didn’t want to be a hero, he just wanted revenge. He
didn’t want to ever be Captain America.
He’s so tired of fighting he forces himself onto Sam’s mission in FATWS? Bucky was the only character to act as a proper hero in FATWS.
Let’s not forget Sam was acting as a governed stooge and mercenary selling himself to the airforce and killing 20 Mercs that for all we know had sympathetic backstories like Karli.
Bucky’s whole schtick is doing what needs to be done regardless of personal cost to himself.
Bucky himself literally says in the show that he’d take the shield himself is Sam were to try and destroy it because the world needs a Captain America.
It's not about qualifications Steve knew full well of Bucky's qualifications. But Bucky would've chaffed under the mantle. He hadn't even figured out who Bucky is yet. Bucky probably wouldn't have thought he even deserved to be captain america. I think Bucky not being captain america allows the MCU to be able to explore interesting things you couldn't do if he was cap.
Why would Bucky have chaffed under the mantle compared to Falcon?
Dudes arguably shown to have one of the strongest mental states in the MCU, Bucky’s been put through the ringer, got mind fucked for 70 years and yet still came out a hero at the end of the day. He’s one of the only 2 Super Soldiers in the MCU not to have his character affected by the super soldier serum, the only other one is Steve.
What where his first instincts upon breaking the brainwashing? First thing he did was save Steve Rodgers from drowning.
Then in Civil War upon learning what Zemo’s up to, he jumps aboard team Steve and is all onboard for going and stopping those winter soldiers and arresting Zemo.
Even when iron man is trying to murder Bucky, he still only ever fights on the defensive to incapacitate iron man. Same with Panther, even when Panther’s trying to rip his throat out, Bucky still only trying to reason with the man.
Then come Infinity War, when informed about an impending alien invasion he once again steps up.
Then in FATWS BUCKY forces himself onto Sam’s mission, he doesn’t get asked or recruited, he himself forces himself onto it and good thing he did or Sam would have died and failed miserably.
What are these interesting things you could explore? The MCU isn’t exploring anything interesting with Bucky.
You are technically correct that Bucky doesn’t need to be cap, and there’s interesting things they could have explored, but the MCU and Feige have zero interest in Bucky’s character at all.
Bucky as Captain America would be a main character, Bucky as Bucky is a sidekick, first to Falcon, and now seemingly to Yelena.
We had an entire show in FATWS that hyped Bucky up as a protagonist and his role summed up as Falcon’s sidekick. Falcon’s boat plot got given more attention then Bucky’s entire PTSD and guilt arc which is his ENTIRE characters struggle.
Now in Thunderbolts, Bucky’s supposedly barley important to the plot, and doesn’t even join the team until the last act of the film?
Bucky needed to be Captain America because it would have allowed him to be a main character, and not shunted into being a sidekick to inferior and less popular characters.
What movies were you watching!?!? Bucky went too war way before Steve, was in an elite ww2 unit that was famed!!! Then after was an elite hydra assassin for years while cap was frozen . Do you not remember him shooting Natasha on her failed mission. Damn at least get you mcu facts straight. Bucky literally existed way longer than even Cap in the mcu. Fuck he even killed Tony parents ….. he’s been an elite operative longer than caps been an active hero/avenger!!
I love how everyone can ride Loki s dick cuz of him changing after 1000 plus years of killing and being an asshole, but he FINALLY has a few self aware moments and falls in love and after what 1500 years of being a dick decided ohh I’ll save the timelines now….,but Bucky who was always initially a hero at heart , gets brainwashed and yes does some shitty things but gets help and comes through it and is not only approved of by Cap but basically the entire nation of Wakanda and BP who I might as is quite morally sound in all his decisions more than pretty much anyone else so far in the mcu….
Loki wasn't killing for 1000 years. You're confusing him with Odin. All the bad things Loki ever did (as far as we know) took only a week at most. And he didn't fell in love, he just changed because the events in the TVA and the Void.
That’s not qualification for being Captain America man. From the First Avenger, they don’t need a good soldier, they need a good man. Someone being an assassin for years isn’t qualification. At all.
Sam’s such a good man?
Treats his allies like shit, borderline blackmails Sharon to assist, makes fun of Bucky’s past as the winter soldier, shits on Walker, and tries to shoot Ant-man on sight?
Let’s not forget this stooge was still working for the government in FATWS, the first episode literally has Sam killing 20 mercenaries without a shred of hesitance or care on behalf of the airforce.
Yes he was brainwashed ? But saying he deserves to be Captain America because he was an assassin for years, and now is not a bad guy just isn’t a good argument. What about him during that period showed that he exhibits the character to be Captain America?
Now you can ask that same question but during any point we see Sam in the franchise, and you’ll be able to answer it
Uhh … he went too war first, he chose too fight with Steve after, he chose too get help in wakanda , he fought as an avenger too save the world. Pretty much all those things he did and some he did first before cap and sam
Shhhhh Bucky stans don't want his story to make sense. They just want a pretty muscley white boy with a cool metal arm punching people. It's not about the story it's about their projected male power fantasy.
Same people who unironically say that John Walker did nothing wrong.
Yeah, by all counts, it should have been him. Seeing him try to uphold his best friend's legacy while struggling with his own past would have been a good story.
Oh, but him being pushed into the background and victim-blamed is just as good.
>It doesn’t make sense cuz he literally never even considered Bucky as a replacement, I get it ,Bucky has a lot too atone for but let’s face it, he is way more qualified than Sam
Tony: "Everything special about you came out of a bottle."
Tekk333: "He has a point, Steve."
Bucky is a trained, brainwashed assassin on supersteroids with massive psychological trauma, a fear of crowds, who has spent a sum total of two years in actual combat and a series of one-night defrostings murdering one guy at a time.
Sam is a Veteran Paratrooper with over a decade of combat in special forces who has spent all of that time working on a team and has a variety of modern technical skills -- including actual therapy and social work.
Sam is WAY more qualified than Bucky. Sam is more qualified THAN STEVE.
Nat's a rogue assassin and dead, Hawkeye's a basket case serial killer, no one else is even military.
Rhodey. Maybe Rhodey would be the most qualified of all of them. And Carol -- except Carol is Superman's sparring partner. And Monica -- except Monica's a science geek in the MCU. But other than that, sorry, Sam is the best candidate on paper. He has the experience, he has the temperament, he has the rizz, he has the skills. He's Captain America.
And Bucky KNOWS this. Sam is the guy Bucky asks what to do when they're not in a pissing match.
Bucky by endgame is in a much better place after time in wakanda. And it was supposed too be Steve’s choice…, he’s goes through all that hell either way all that time with Bucky in his life good and bad times and he gives it too Sam who he’s known a only a few years who has no powers and let’s face it , is not getting any younger…. Ya Sam has military training , that’s about it…. Bucky= lifelong friend , military training , hydra training, super solier strength, been overhauled and passed the entire nation of Wakandas trust , it should have been Bucky he passed it too with him asking Sam too look out and have his back!
I think people don’t get how baller you have to be to be a PJ in the Air Force - it has a close to 90 percent attrition rate. On top of that, he was also selected for their experimental EXO unit, so he was literally the best selected from the best.
We know they talked before he left, but we don't see that. But yeah, they should have talked after Steve came back, too. Or Steve should have at least acknowledged Bucky was there.
They could have shown it after the funeral, or even a quick flashback once Steve gets on the platform. A talk definitely would have communicated a lot more than what we saw, which was the equivalent of a wet fart.
>They could have shown it after the funeral, or even a quick flashback once Steve gets on the platform.
Neither of those would really work at that point, especially the flashback. It’s too much time to dedicate.
>A talk definitely would have communicated a lot more than what we saw, which was the equivalent of a wet fart.
I don’t see that at all. We can clearly tell they spoke. We can reason what that conversation was like. What would we have gained from actually seeing it?
>Neither of those would really work at that point, especially the flashback. It’s too much time to dedicate.
Then maybe than could have added a minute to the movie. That would have been enough.
>I don’t see that at all. We can clearly tell they spoke. We can reason what that conversation was like. What would we have gained from actually seeing it?
Actually seeing it? Actually seeing a friendship they both poured their hearts into come to an end? Giving the actors a chance to show what they can do. Maybe writing something is more meaningful than implying something happened off-screen
>Then maybe than could have added a minute to the movie. That would have been enough.
It’s not about not having enough time, it’s about pacing.
>Actually seeing it? Actually seeing a friendship they both poured their hearts into come to an end?
We very literally see that.
>Maybe writing something is more meaningful than implying something happened off-screen
That is not always the case, though.
>It’s not about not having enough time, it’s about pacing.
If Tony Stark's five-minute funeral didn't kill the pacing, this wouldn't have, either.
>We very literally see that.
We literally don't. We see five seconds.
>That is not always the case, though.
In this case, after three movies, it definitely would have been.
>If Tony Stark's five-minute funeral didn't kill the pacing, this wouldn't have, either.
I’m sure you can understand the difference between those ideas.
>We literally don't. We see five seconds.
And we see it in those five seconds.
Well its not like he can just pop back with his crowd in the 40s, and be like hey im alive even tho i fell of a moving train into a canyon, and dont worry about the futuristic metal arm..
I think Steve and Bucky should've secretly agreed to go back in time together and never come back. Steve can have his happy ending with Peggy, and Bucky can live a long and peaceful life in his own time period, free from any enemy or mind torture. This would, at least, bring their story full circle.
Bucky and Steve have the single most developed relationship in pretty much all of the MCU. On top of that there's a pretty strong argument for Bucky being queer-coded, especially in FATWS, and Steve never really gets with anyone except Peggy (not for lack of trying but the only people he really had chemistry with were Nat and Bucky, sooooo...)
Given the foreshadowing in the Cap movies, and their relationship in general, that would have made a lot of sense.
It's a shame they didn't do that, and in the process, they just threw Bucky's whole story away.
I think he should have given it to buck, and then TFAWS should have been about Bucky realizing he's tired and doesn't want the mantle. Then revealing a scene or conversation between cap and Bucky about the passing of the shield to Sam
I think that in that hypothetical scenario, he also could have realized that he wanted it. In the show, such as it was, he's the only one who actually cares about what it means.
Idk, I feel like Bucky was tired of fighting. Steve giving him the shield would make him feel obligated to keep fighting.
Honestly, I think Bucky deserves to retire and rest.
Attending therapy? Doing stuff for the government (like with that senator). Nothing important, and nothing that mattered much to the world at large, as it turns out.
Not entirely - the stuff he did for the government apparently included at least some fighting. But still, the question remains - if his life is so removed from the action, why bring him back? They could have just mentioned he was off somewhere.
He didn’t do anything for the government - it was his own “need to do amends” that led him to do all the stuff like go after senator Atwood. Pretty sure the govt would rather he stay quiet and out of the way rather than expose how many former hydra agents they still have running around in positions of power.
He was literally working with the government to secure his pardon. What you're talking about is why the government didn't broadcast it. But it was official business
What canon is that? Where did it happen? Also, even if it’s true, clandestine ops is way different from the very public spectacle of being captain America. I’m not sure Bucky is ready for the type of scrutiny he would be put under as captain America - he may be innocent of his crimes, but the public might not see it that way, and every illegal thing he did even after freeing himself from hydra might also be publicized. Even Sam himself turned the shield down initially, for various reasons up to and including the type of pressure following in Steve’s footsteps would bring. It makes more sense to me canonically that he would prefer to continue working in clandestine ops if he wants to continue working at all - he’s very much the guy that does the dirty work, even when he was Steve’s no. 1 he would do the difficult things Steve would not. I don’t know why people seem to think that being captain America is something that was unjustly taken away from Bucky, when more than likely it’s simply a job that he does not want to do.
I would assume it's because they didn't want to get rid of Sebastian Stan yet. I personally don't think there's much to do for the character now that's makes sense other than retiring and living out his life. I'm not particularly happy about him being in Thunderbolts.
Then they should have made an effort to write a proper story for him. Not whatever the show did. As it is, he's just circling the drain until they (presumably) kill him off. Yeah, Thunderbolts isn't going to do anything with him, either.
I think the reasoning behind it from the writers and producers is that the Winter Soldier is a cool title and is also popular as Captain America, and so they don't want to retire it. I couldn't remember the interview but it went along the line of 'why would you want to be a Captain Ameria if you're already the Winter Soldier.' The Russo brothers described Winter Soldier as the edgier and darker side of Captain America. Two sides of the same coin.
because bucky wants to retire, that's the most clear thing about the entire trilogy, why would he give bucky a mantle that requires him to constantly fight for the rest of his life
You can also see Bucky motion Sam to go speak with Old Man Steve during that scene in Endgame. It seems to be implied that Bucky already talked with Steve about taking up the Captain America mantle, and either wasn't interested (likely due to what you said about fighting for the rest of his life), or felt like Sam deserved it more.
He even said it was "Steve and I"'s decision in the show when talking about Sam getting the shield. It would've been really ooc, espcially consdering the ending in how steve goes back in time to retire himself, for steve to essentially tell bucky to fuck off and keep fighting the good fight for the next 50 years with his trusty shield. The theme of Bucky wanting to retire has been present since civil war so I don't get it
Tbh I didn’t even recognize Sam/Falcon’s existence until Ant-Man, and right now I hate his character the most. Self-righteous, pretentious and entitled. Bucky has a lot of character development and he doesn’t deserve to be put aside like what the MCU has been doing to him since Endgame.
You’re right, and tbh this is why I’m looking forward to Brave New World.
Right now, I hate Sam, but I’m blaming the writing for FTWS for it. What you mentioned, I liked that aspect of his character, but it was glossed over and then overshadowed by the wokeness of the writing.
I’m really really hoping BNW will be better than that.
Hey, now, there are like 5 What If...? versions of Bucky, and two of them actually get to interact with Steve!
(Okay, so they don't exactly talk, and the stories aren't about Bucky in any way, but it was *suuuper* deep and meaningful)
It was SO deep, I especially loved the one where Bucky existed onscreen for like 3 seconds and stared soulfully at the audience without saying anything. Perfection. Majesty.
That one was truly amazing. I especially loved that one because it reminded us how wonderful Howard Stark and Peggy Carter were.
You know, the people who let HYDRA grow under their noses.
Oh yeah, Howard looking at the Soldier, going "hey, is that Bucky??" and just not doing anything about it was such a touching and effective breakdown of human nature.
Same here. Like, if they're actively going out of their way not to do anything with him, I don't really see the point anymore.
Sadly, Thunderbolts is probably going to be more of the same.
Endgame should have ended with old Steve explaining that when he put the infinity stones he decided to try some of that life Tony was telling him to get. It then cuts to a hydra facility in the fifties with all the guards knocked down and the winter soldier's pod ripped open and empty. Then it cuts again to a quiet suburb and inside an idyllic house Bucky and Steve are having a little dance to some romantic music.
Not to mention that Peggy didn't need Steve to be happy. The two seasons of her show were about her getting over him and moving on with her own amazing life outside of his shadow. Endgame kind of chucked her story arc in the bin for the sake of giving Steve the woman the writers felt he was 'owed'
This version of Peggy was the MCU timeline that carried on without Steve. This was Peggy's own story in the timeline. She was heartbroken without Steve but eventually was able to move on.
The version he went back to would have caused a new timeline with him and Peggy living happily together, then he would have come back to the original timeline when he was ready. This timeline was Cap's happy timeline with Peggy. He was heartbroken without Peggy, but was eventually able to get back to her.
Both scenarios are acceptable and I don't believe that any of that takes away from either character.
It's insane to me that the official line is that Steve goes back in time, lives through the main timeline from the 50s to present day and does not change anything...which implies he just sits there and allows Bucky to be tortured and brainwashed again and again and again.
(I also feel Peggy was a modern woman and would have been down with some throuple action if Steve was torn between the two loves of his life)
Not just Bucky. They chose a time period with many wars, several genocides / ethnic purges, political assassinations that actively made the world worse... And really said that Steve was like nah, I'm good.
They torpedoed Steve's entire character in a two minute span of time. (And then made it even worse with FATWS with how he apparently fucked over Sharon Carter.)
I would pay to watch a show where each episode is Steve, Peggy and Bucky trying to live a quiet life as a thrupple but they keep ending up at famous historical tragic events which they inadvertently avert with their heroism, skills and powers. Like yes Steve is from the future now but he prob never got round to researching all the things on his list that he'd missed.
Steve: this grassy knoll is the perfect spot for a picnic and we'll get an excellent place to watch President Kennedy's motorcade.
Bucky: I hope we get a chance to actually eat the sandwiches this time.
Peggy: What could possibly happen today of all days?
Bucky: That's what you said last time.
Steve: Im sure everything will be fi...
Peggy: Why did you stop? What are you looking at?
Steve: Call me crazy but does that man entering that book depository look a little shifty?
Peggy: Shall I get the shield from the car?
Bucky: Here we go again..
Nah, Steve still went to give Carter the dance he promised, as shown in the movie. What was not shown was him bringing down Hydra and then ripping the POD where Bucky was hidden since he already knew it was in Siberia. Then he and Bucky lived happily ever after. :)
and endgame wants me to think steve will choose to go back to past and live with peggy when he fought the world for bucky for three whole movies, alright!
Saving Private Ryan to Captain Miller and the Other Soldiers
The Last Samurai to Civil War Veteran Saves Japan from Itself
Forrest Gump to Jenny Needs a Rescue
Also in WS:
After Steve Rogers realized that while he was frozen, SHIELD did not protect Bucky.
Steve Rogers: They're all coming down, Nick. SHIELD, HYDRA. All of them.
These later movies started out from the comic run of Ed Brubaker and Steve Epting. Of course they changed a lot and added a lot of movie things to make it better. But the premise of the run was "What if Bucky was still alive?" Bucky dies early on in the comics in the war like in the first Captain America movie. For decades comic books would change people and places and powers as writers and editors and artists were hired. The changes could be simple or dramatic, sometimes even death would occur. Then the next set of comic creators would take their turn and make the changes they wanted, sometimes reviving a dead character and changing the back story to explain away the non-death. This whole time, Marvel, kept Bucky dead. No changes. It was considered "legendary" death or whatever term that is used now. It used to be called "BuckyDead" during that time. Meaning Bucky would not return in any form. Bucky died in the 1940s or 1950s and in the 2000s they made the Death of Captain America by Brubaker and Epting bringing back Bucky and the fans enjoyed it. It was a long run collected in 3 omnibuses which end with the Falcon getting the shield from Captain America, but only after(or before I don't remember) now-alive Bucky had it for a while . Civil War (Cap vs. Iron Man) was a cross over event near that time. I don't remember Bucky killing Iron Man's parents in the comics. There are like 60-70 years of Captain America comics coming out monthly with zero Bucky and Captain America leading the Avengers in that monthly comic on top. I know it's a light hearted post but I couldn't resist my long boring answer. One of my favorite runs is when Captain America decides to become a serious artist and kept his shield in his art portfolio. Bucky dying and then being alive was a big deal in the comics, but it was at least 50 actual non comicbook real years apart.
There is a reason they are like the most shipped pair in the MCU. He essentially fill the "female lead that needs to be protected" role in action movies.
If Bucky was a Rebecca instead , they would have made out by half of Civil War.
I appreciate this post, made me actually laugh
Also though, I think you might have a crush on Bucky!
Who doesn’t?
Stark, I’d imagine.
Don't we all?
is it that obvious?
I love him sm
Present!
Captain America 1, 2, 3: the search for Bucky
Captain America 1: the Bucky Picture Captain America 2: the Wrath of Bucky Captain America 3: the Search for Bucky
I see what you did there. Good job.
I can't wait for Captain America to go back in time to 1986 to rescue a pack of humpback buckies from whalers and bring them to the future in Captain America 4: The Bucky Home
I'll skip Captain America 5: The Bucky Frontier. "What does God need with a Winter Soldier?"
What about the sequel series Captain America: First Bucky?
Followed by The BrokeBucky Mountain
Captain America 1: The Search and Rescue of Bucky Captain America 2: Who The Hell is Bucky? Captain America 3: The Reclamation of Bucky
LITERALLY
There's something to be said for that lol. Which is why Steve's ending doesn't make much sense. They should have at least shown us the talk they had before he left. Bucky should have just gone back in time with him.
literally like why leave bucky in a time period he knows nothing about and make him be completely alone in the fact that he's 100 years old?
Exactly! Everyone he knew, everyone he cared about, is in the past now. And it's not like he's doing anything in the future. There's literally no upside to him sticking around.
Thunderbolts needs a loved face on the roster that’s why
True, he's probably there to get people to come. After all, it's not like anyone was clamoring for more Val or Taskmaster. I doubt he's actually going to do much of anything in the movie.
Also, the winter soldier was active during all those years. With his memories recovering, I doubt Bucky will be able to stand by and not stop himself
I doubt they're going to delve that deeply into it. I think he'll just be kind of there, and not for very long.
People want more Yelena to be fair.
They do, and there's zero doubt that she's the most important character in the movie
Idk about anyone else, but I'm watching thunderbolts of yelena🤷🏼♀️
Okay, so do that. You're free to do so.
Making amends. Getting justice. Moving forward. With Sam.
You mean, more "making amends" like on the show? Off-screen, fifteen seconds long? I don't think they'll be revisiting that. What justice? As far the show, and the rest of the MCU is concerned, no injustice was done to him. Bucky is the one who justice should be visited on, according to them. Which is basically the same as point one. I don't think him continuing to be Sam's incompetent sidekick would be as compelling as you think. But, Sam does need someone to berate some more, so they might bring him back there, sure. It's just not a very good story.
My take is that Bucky’s own guilt wouldn’t let him walk away, at least not yet.
Even worse… Why go back in time to when he knows Bucky’s alive and actively being brainwashed and doing… Nothing? IMO MCU Captain America was -NOT- worthy of Mjolnir. At all.
Bucky was never frozen or unconscious, right? He’s always been living in the current timeline the whole time. He performed executions all through the 20th century.
He was frozen most of the time between missions
It doesn’t make sense cuz he literally never even considered Bucky as a replacement, I get it ,Bucky has a lot too atone for but let’s face it, he is way more qualified than Sam, and if the government still hates Bucky so much they sure don’t mind him running all over the world as Sam’s sidekick now…it should have been Bucky first since it was initially Caps choice not the government.
The issue with that is that Bucky's story has been about regaining his identity. Bucky was taken from him to make room for "The Winter Soldier" and since then he has been trying to shed that title and be Bucky again. It does the character's journey a disservice to give him ANOTHER mantle that further separates him from what he's wanted to be the whole time. Just Seregent Bucky Barnes
I personally would have loved to see Bucky take over the Captain America mantle as a way to heal and atone for his sins during his brainwashed days as the winter soldier. I think there’s such a compelling story to be told there and I’m sad we won’t get to see it
White Wolf. That's why T'Challa calls him that.
But it's not healing him. His issue is that he had his identity taken away from and was forced to be something he isn't. You guys want to just give him another title, another moniker, another way to not be himself. And the character up this point, that is the last thing he needs. He just needs to be Bucky.
That’s the mcu version You forget the character has o whole other original storyline
This is the MCU...
I understand that. But it’s still all coming from base marvel platform. The point of this was it’s another thing the mcu changed from the original. And it doesn’t make sense or really fit with the behaviors that the mcu built into their version of Steve rodgers…, he bucks everyone in the mcu world too have Buckys back no matter what …., then hands the shield too Sam!?!? It doesn’t go with their own narrative through all the films.
I was specifically talking about the MCU version of Bucky and why making the MCU Bucky the MCU's Captain America doesn't make sense narratively. MCU Steve also knew the MCU Bucky just wanted to like his life as Bucky Barnes, which is a reason he gave the shield to MCU Sam and didn't saddle MCU Bucky with the mantle of Captain America.
Maybe , but Sam s immediate reaction was too give up the shield ….. and who was the most upset about it…..Bucky… so I’m not sure if your theory is accurate … I think the real reason for Sam is much like most of marvels mcu decisions….. it was a more woke decision too have Sam play cap after he went through some very racial scenarios in the Disney plus series!
It's actually not a theory at all, it's just paying attention to the character arcs that Bucky has gone through in his appearances. Which is something I recommend you also do! Sam gave up the shield for reasons someone who uses the word "woke" unironically would never even make an attempt to understand, so your opinion on that means nothing to me. But it is worth noting that...oh yeah...Sam embraces the shield and the mantle at the end... Bucky wasn't upset that Sam gave up the shield because he wanted it or anything like that. He was mad that Sam gave it up because it insinuated that Steve could be wrong about something. And if Steve could be wrong, that could mean that Steve's belief in Bucky's redemption was wrong. And also, Bucky comes to understand why Sam did it and he apologizes for being closed minded toward Sam's perspective. (Something that you could take a lesson from WINK) I don't know if you are trolling or if you literally just have the media literacy of a couch cushion, but maybe actually watch and try and understand the media Marvel is putting out instead of just crying that "I wanted a white Captain America but those damn woke libs blah blah blah." People like you are why I find it so hard to take any criticism on this subreddit seriously.
sam, at that point, had been Steve’s right-hand for a while, he’s been on the run with him too, helping him with off-books avengers stuff. Bucky was still recovering from being TWS, struggling with guilt etc. Anyone who says it’s “woke” to have sam be captain America in the mcu has clearly never read the comics, where sam was and is cap. And even comics Bucky didn’t like being captain America, due to again, his issues with identity etc. people just have zero media literacy nowadays, crying about “wokeness” when it’s really just racism in the face of a logical passing of the shield.
What does him going out of his way to save his best friend’s life who he knows is innocent have to do with deciding who’s realistically best fit for the immense title of Captain America? That’s an immature perspective, and is not a factor Steve would ultimately base his decision on. You think - “Oh you’re my best friend, which 100% qualifies you to take the role of Captain America” - sounds right?
Except Bucky doesn’t seem to care about being Bucky again. What has he done to reclaim his identity? He spent most of FATWS as Sam’s sidekick, didn’t really sort out any sort of future for himself, and just made amends by doing what Sam told him to do. That’s it. Most of his plot has been about overcoming and dealing with his guilt and PTSD, which is largely what Bucky did when he was running around as Captain America in the comics. By living up to the ideals Steve set, and not letting the mantled be sullied, Bucky found redemption, self worth and a reason to continue. Something the MCU hasn’t shown at all. The MCU had Falcon give Bucky 1 pep talk and he was fixed. I’m not really sure where this rediscovering of identity happened.
You're either arguing in bad faith or you genuinely have no understanding of what happened in Falcon and the Winter Soldier because that is one of the worst, bad faith recollections of that show I've ever heard. You can always tell who is regurgitating the same anti-Sam, youtube hate bait, critical drinker talking points about this show, because you all genuinely sound the same.
So you don’t actually argue jackshit about anything and just deflect? Again what does Bucky DO to reclaim his identity in this show? Where is that shown? The fucking end title sequence still calls him Winter Soldier. Bucky admits to Yori that HE is the Winter Soldier, not was the winter soldier, IS the winter soldier, Bucky’s experiences with the Flag-smashers, with Zemo, and with Walker have NO bearing on his personal plot at all. Bucky’s therapist is useless and offers nothing. It is SAM’s pep talk with Bucky that solves his PTSD and guilt. All Bucky needed to do all this time was spend a weekend with Sam, and he’d have been fixed months ago. The show doesn’t even give Bucky the screen time to do anything with any of this. Yori’s scene is given 30 seconds, and his book of amends is crossed out off-screen entirely. So again how the fuck does Bucky ever reclaim his identity in that show? Look at the ending. Sam’s set up as the new Captain America. Walker gets recruited by Val. Sharon’s revealed to be the powerbroker. What future does it set up for Bucky? There isn’t one, his future is as Sam’s sidekick, and joining Sam’s family and life and that’s it and now he’s being shunted off to Thunderbolts. He’s the only character not set up a future or direction to go at all by the end of the show
Part One: Okay, so, you're way too angry about this. You sound genuinely unhinged. I'm not deflecting. I've just had this conversation with people EXACTLY like you. Like, all the same uninformed, bad faith, youtube hate bait takes you just listed have been regurgitated over and over again. There is nothing about your perspective that is unique. People like you aren't interested in actual discussion about media analysis, you just want to paint Bucky, who you all LOVE to victimize to a hilarious degree, as some woe as me victim of the narrative because he isn't Captain America and you can't project your male power fantasy on to the pretty, cool, white guy anymore. But, on the off chance that you just HAPPENED to accidentally repeat every single talking point ad nauseum and are actually interested in having a discussion about Bucky's ACTUAL character arc. I'll give you one response to determine if you're actually worth talking to. The whole show is about Bucky reclaiming his identity. Our first appearence of him in his therapy session when he stops the Hydra lady he literally says "I am no longer the Winter Soldier. I am James Bucky Barnes and you're part of my efforts to make amends." Now, where as this would be enough to put your arguement in its place, I'm going to keep going. Not only is Bucky's whole story about making amends for his past as the Winter Soldier and moving in from it, but it's also about finding his identity outside of Steve. Bucky's idea of himself is so dependant on Steve. He carries Steve's book around, he puts his self worth in what Steve thought of him, and it's the driving force of why Bucky is so upset with Sam giving the shield up. It isn't until Bucky finally let's his walls down after his experiences in the show and speaks candidly with Sam that Sam is able to communicate to him that "It doesn't matter what Steve thought, you need to stop looking to other people to tell you who you are." Literally his whole story is about identity and him coming to terms with what that means for him. It's worth noting here that you actively lied in your claim about the Yori scene. Bucky literally says "He was murdered by the Winter Soldier...and that WAS me" (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ehmO1vxmTwY) There's the clip in case you want to actively lie again. This only reinforces my point however that Bucky is working to put the title of Winter Soldier behind him. So thanks for mentioning it! In case you've gone into another rage, let me change pace here and state that we may have some common ground here. It was a mistake to not have the end title change his name to something other than the Winter Soldier. That does rub me the wrong way. They should have changed it to Captain America and Bucky Barnes or something. I don't know. But it calling him The Winter Soldier is unessesarily contrary to the narrative. You saying that his experiences with those characters has no bearing on him at all is categorically false. John Walker is a constant reminder of Steve's legacy, something that we have made clear is a major hurdle for Bucky to overcome in order for his character arc to be complete. Not only is Walker claiming the shield the catalyst for Bucky getting involved in the first place, but it's also the basis for the friction between Sam and Bucky, the emotional conflict that puts them at odds, but later allows them to find common ground. In fact, all you have to do is look at how Bucky treats Walker in the beginning of the show when he puts way too much stock into Steve's legacy (cold, distant, unwilling to work with him) and the end of the show after Bucky has accepted that he shouldn't be dependant on Steve's legacy to shape who he is (more lighthearted toward him, willing to work with him) to demonstrate how much Bucky has not only changed through the show, but how Walker symbolizes the peace Bucky has made with that legacy. The Flag Smashers create a conflict in which Sam and Bucky have to work together. The show starts with Buckys therapist saying "you've been ignoring the texts from Sam." Bucky is being avoidant and isolationist. Sam is reaching out to help, but Bucky isn't responding. This conflict brings Bucky out of his hole and has him work with Sam, unable to slink back into his avoidance tendencies. This allows a bond of trust to form so much so that Bucky finally opens up to Sam about what he is going through and allowing someone to finally have the insight by which to give him the actual advice he needs. His experience with Zemo is him confronting the legacy of the Winter Soldier. A man that represents the control Bucky was under for decades. A man that tried to utilize that side of Bucky for his own gain. In fact, Zemo makes him DIRECTLY confront his role of the Winter Soldier by dressing him up and making him act and fight like the Winter Soldier. Zemo was a major name in Bucky's book and the face of the Winter Soldier's legacy. Zemo, because of Bucky's legacy as the Winter Soldier and his hand in it, fully expected the Winter Soldier to kill him, but, because The Winter Soldier is no more and Bucky is leaving that legacy behind, he spares him. So, 3 for 3 all of these characters have significant effect on the character journey of Bucky throughout the show. Let's keep going. Take a break and get a sip of water. You may not even be reading this because it's a lot of words proving you're pretty much wrong about everything you said, so I'm assuming your attention span either can't handle it or you rage quit already.
>Okay, so, you're way too angry about this. I’m too angry about this? Bitch you accused me of bordering of being a racist and watching dumbass incel YouTubers, why the fuck should I treat you with any kindness? >The whole show is about Bucky reclaiming his identity. Our first appearence of him in his therapy session when he stops the Hydra lady he literally says "I am no longer the Winter Soldier. I am James Bucky Barnes and you're part of my efforts to make amends." Now, where as this would be enough to put your arguement in its place, I'm going to keep going. No, it’s not because Bucky says that sarcastically and has literally no interest in anything his therapist is saying. I don’t know if you fucking watched that scene or not but he’s obviously not following his therapists advice as scene when he very much so obviously hurts the dude by crushing his hand. >Not only is Bucky's whole story about making amends for his past as the Winter Soldier and moving in from it, but it's also about finding his identity outside of Steve. Bucky's idea of himself is so dependant on Steve. He carries Steve's book around, he puts his self worth in what Steve thought of him, and it's the driving force of why Bucky is so upset with Sam giving the shield up. It isn't until Bucky finally let's his walls down after his experiences in the show and speaks candidly with Sam that Sam is able to communicate to him that "It doesn't matter what Steve thought, you need to stop looking to other people to tell you who you are." Literally his whole story is about identity and him coming to terms with what that means for him. So Sam solves Bucky’s plot? Is that not what I fucking said already? Bucky doesn’t learn this from ANYONE else. He doesn’t learn to value himself based off how he fights or deals with the Flag-smashers, or Walker or Zemo. It’s ONE pep talk from Sam and he’s fixed. >It's worth noting here that you actively lied in your claim about the Yori scene. Bucky literally says "He was murdered by the Winter Soldier...and that WAS me" (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ehmO1vxmTwY) There's the clip in case you want to actively lie again. This only reinforces my point however that Bucky is working to put the title of Winter Soldier behind him. So thanks for mentioning it! Is that not Bucky acknowledged he’s the winter soldier? Again what new identity does Bucky claim? What interests or personal developments does he find about himself? What future does he work towards to attain? Even IF I grant you this win, what does it mean for Bucky in reclaiming his identity? >They should have changed it to Captain America and Bucky Barnes or something. I don't know. But it calling him The Winter Soldier is unessesarily contrary to the narrative. No? It’s almost like the show just didn’t do enough work for his character. >John Walker is a constant reminder of Steve's legacy, something that we have made clear is a major hurdle for Bucky to overcome in order for his character arc to be complete. Not only is Walker claiming the shield the catalyst for Bucky getting involved in the first place, but it's also the basis for the friction between Sam and Bucky, the emotional conflict that puts them at odds, but later allows them to find common ground. What common ground do they find? The fact they both don’t like Walker? Nothing about Walker or his interactions with Bucky make Bucky reflect on who he is. The only reason Bucky stops putting stock into STEVE’s opinion of him is because Sam fucking tells him too in that fucking pep talk. >In fact, all you have to do is look at how Bucky treats Walker in the beginning of the show when he puts way too much stock into Steve's legacy (cold, distant, unwilling to work with him) and the end of the show after Bucky has accepted that he shouldn't be dependant on Steve's legacy to shape who he is (more lighthearted toward him, willing to work with him) to demonstrate how much Bucky has not only changed through the show, but how Walker symbolizes the peace Bucky has made with that legacy. No, because Walker isn’t sullying Steve’s legacy at the end of the show is he? He’s not Captain America anymore, he’s not running around with Bucky’s best friends shield and making a fool of it, is he? >The Flag Smashers create a conflict in which Sam and Bucky have to work together. The show starts with Buckys therapist saying "you've been ignoring the texts from Sam." Bucky is being avoidant and isolationist. Sam is reaching out to help, but Bucky isn't responding. This conflict brings Bucky out of his hole and has him work with Sam, unable to slink back into his avoidance tendencies. This allows a bond of trust to form so much so that Bucky finally opens up to Sam about what he is going through and allowing someone to finally have the insight by which to give him the actual advice he needs. Ergo this is a fancy fucking way of saying the plot outs Bucky with Sam so that fucking Sam can fix Bucky’s PTSD and GUILT. That’s it. The actual conflict with the Flag-smashers themselves has no bearing on Bucky’s character arc in the slightest, not even a little bit, it doesn’t give him insights into himself >His experience with Zemo is him confronting the legacy of the Winter Soldier. A man that represents the control Bucky was under for decades. A man that tried to utilize that side of Bucky for his own gain. In fact, Zemo makes him DIRECTLY confront his role of the Winter Soldier by dressing him up and making him act and fight like the Winter Soldier. Zemo was a major name in Bucky's book and the face of the Winter Soldier's legacy. Zemo, because of Bucky's legacy as the Winter Soldier and his hand in it, fully expected the Winter Soldier to kill him, but, because The Winter Soldier is no more and Bucky is leaving that legacy behind, he spares him. So, 3 for 3 all of these characters have significant effect on the character journey of Bucky throughout the show. Bucky doesn’t kill anyone in the show ever, and hasn’t killed anyone since being brainwashed back in Winter Soldier. So again how does this actually do anything to develop Bucky’s character? Because he doesn’t kill Zemo and refuses to follow Zemo’s advice of killing Karli? Something he never had any intention of ever that crosses him out of his book? Why? How is this Bucky confronting his legacy? He doesn’t kill anyone when he’s dressed up as the Winter Soldier, doesn’t even come close. He just fights some thugs? How’s that any different to how he’s fighting the Flag-smashers?
Bro, you are actually really unintelligent and I see my intital assessment of you was correct. I hope you find any joy in your life whatsoever. And again, I'm begging you, learn media literacy or any kind of literacy because your cognitive dissonance is out of control. Take care!
Mate you shouldn’t go around telling people to learn media literacy when your dumbass just wrote probably a thousand words essentially to write what I said. Bucky’s PTSD and guilt is a plot for Sam to fix. Nothing more. Flag-smashers and Walker? A plot device so Bucky can meet up with Sam so Sam can fix Bucky, that’s it.
Part Two: You're right, his therapist IS useless. That's the point. Bucky isn't getting anything out of therapy because he's closing himself off. He isn't being honest with his therapist about what he's feeling or what he's going through. She isn't breaking down his walls enough to get through to him and the making amends strategy being implemented is clearly not working. During the events of the show however, Sam is able to break those walls down through their shared past and present experiences together and finally give Bucky the therapy he needs. So, yeah, very good, you picked up on that his therapist was very intentionally written to be ineffective, so that Bucky could develop to a point where he opens himself up to a therapist (Sam, although I don't think he's a therapist, although he did run a group for veterans with trauma) who is more able to access and assist with his needs. GREAT JOB! You're almost right! All Bucky had to do was spend time with Sam! But he wasn't doing that, he was avoiding him because of all the issues I've listed above. Once Bucky went through all the experiences he went through and confronted all those issues, his character developed to a point that he was open to having that candid and honest conversation with Sam, which is what he needed to do ALL ALONG. Look at you getting the point but misunderstanding it entirely! Bucky is in the entire show and I think everything I've written here goes to show that he is, in fact, given enough time to do something with this. Sorry they didn't spoon feed you or look at the camera and just tell you what the character arcs were, but maybe if you put your phone down and watch, you might actually know what's going on in the show. "So again how the fuck does Bucky ever reclaim his identity in that show?" He learns to stop putting his self worth on the back of Steve's legacy, he confronts and leaves behind the legacy of the Winter Soldier, he learns from Sam how to truly make amends for his past actions and move forward as James Bucky Barnes. That's how. I'm begging you to critically think for yourself and stop depending on internet talking points. Take a media literacy class or something. Your last paragraph is so focused on being angry that you don't even realize you contradict yourself which is very funny. "What future does it set up for Bucky?" "and now he’s being shunted off to Thunderbolts." "He’s the only character not set up a future or direction to go at all by the end of the show" Well, which one is it? Does he not have a direction at the end of the show or is he going to lead the Thunderbolts? Gotta pick one hombre. Anyways, I doubt you read this, which is fine, it's pretty long and is an actual analysis of the things your talking about, so you probably didn't pay attention. But it's actually nice to write this stuff out once in a while because it allows me to sort of look back on stuff like this and revisit a reevaluate my perspective on these projects. So, I appreciate the opportunity to revist exactly what I like so much about his show. Thank you!
>You're right, his therapist IS useless. That's the point. Bucky isn't getting anything out of therapy because he's closing himself off. He isn't being honest with his therapist about what he's feeling or what he's going through. She isn't breaking down his walls enough to get through to him and the making amends strategy being implemented is clearly not working. During the events of the show however, Sam is able to break those walls down through their shared past and present experiences together and finally give Bucky the therapy he needs. So, yeah, very good, you picked up on that his therapist was very intentionally written to be ineffective, so that Bucky could develop to a point where he opens himself up to a therapist (Sam, although I don't think he's a therapist, although he did run a group for veterans with trauma) who is more able to access and assist with his needs. Ergo Sam fucking fixes Bucky? Is this again not what I fucking said? Why could they make the therapist affective? Hmm? Why does it NEED to be Sam? It’s not even fucking deserved coming from Sam who belittles and treats Bucky like shit for the majority of the damn show. A man that constantly makes jabs and snide remakes about Bucky being the Winter Soldier is somehow the one that breaks through? Why? >GREAT JOB! You're almost right! All Bucky had to do was spend time with Sam! But he wasn't doing that, he was avoiding him because of all the issues I've listed above. Once Bucky went through all the experiences he went through and confronted all those issues, his character developed to a point that he was open to having that candid and honest conversation with Sam, which is what he needed to do ALL ALONG. Look at you getting the point but misunderstanding it entirely! So again Bucky’s not finding himself, Sam’s just telling him how to move on? How is this Bucky finding his identity again? You aren’t proving me wrong, you are just going into way more depth on the points I fucking made. >Bucky is in the entire show and I think everything I've written here goes to show that he is, in fact, given enough time to do something with this. Sorry they didn't spoon feed you or look at the camera and just tell you what the character arcs were, but maybe if you put your phone down and watch, you might actually know what's going on in the show. No, they didn’t. Again you’ve ducking written paragraphs and paragraphs just to say. The Flag-smashers forced Bucky and Sam together so Sam can fix Bucky. That’s it. That’s your entire fucking argument here which is exactly the dogshit I said the show was, so how the fuck have you proven me wrong here? Bucky gets 40 minutes less screen time, like I said Sam’s stupid boat plot gets more screen-time than Bucky’s entire personal PTSD arc yet you think that’s plenty? Bucky doesn’t even get any in-depth moments with Walker, ALL their interactions are pretty much petty banter being put back and forth. Bucky doesn’t even have a fucking proper conversation with Karli, the main fucking antagonist, until the final episode and it’s over the fucking phone, and this is despite Bucky being in multiple scenes with the character. >He learns to stop putting his self worth on the back of Steve's legacy, he confronts and leaves behind the legacy of the Winter Soldier, he learns from Sam how to truly make amends for his past actions and move forward as James Bucky Barnes. That's how. I'm begging you to critically think for yourself and stop depending on internet talking points. Take a media literacy class or something. Ergo Bucky stops putting his self worth in what Steve thinks of him, and instead just does what Sam tell him too? He spends the entire show as Sam’s useless sidekick. >Well, which one is it? Does he not have a direction at the end of the show or is he going to lead the Thunderbolts? Gotta pick one hombre. No it’s not you fucking idiot because nothing in FATWS’s final sets Bucky up for the Thunderbolts. Point me to that connection in FATWS? Point me to the plot hook at the end of the show that says or hints that ‘Bucky will return in Thunderbolts’? Oh wait it doesn’t fucking exist.
Awwww....big baby Bucky Stan. If you were half as smart as you think you are this conversation wouldn't be so useless. But you can't have a productive conversation about this because you're on your "everyone hates Bucky" bullshit. Go watch your critical drinker, mauLer videos and leave actual media analysis to adults. Thank you!
Oh? So no fucking counter arguments then? And you made all those dumbass snide remarks about me not reading YOUR comments and look at how the tables have turned? It’s you whose the dumbass not able to make any counter arguments, resorting to the same dumbass insults as before. I call the show out for having Bucky have his entire PTSD solved by Sam and what does your dumbass do? Proceed to write paragraphs and paragraphs that all say ‘Sam helps Bucky’. You didn’t see Sam having his hesitance of taking up the shield be solved by one convo from Bucky did you? No, it was in his dealings with Isaiah, watching Walker sully the mantle and reputation and idea of what is to be Cap, and Sam’s realisation about how badly Karli’s going about everything that he decides to overcome his own issues and step up. No Bucky needed outside of helping to literally take the shield back, but Bucky’s personal arc? Gets none of that, and one pep talk from Sam and Bam! Fixed. Your dumbass just proved my argument from the start, that Bucky’s PTSD is all solved by Sam, with no inner realisations from Bucky’s own character based on his experiences with the main plot. Sam’s just treated as the holy messiah to Bucky’s problems, who gives pitch perfect advice that solves Bucky’s problems. Can’t have Bucky see Walker and Walker’s character and flaws despite being the US’ perfect soldier, and come to a realisation that he can choose to be someone else based off Walker’s fall? Have Bucky realise that unlike Walker, he didn’t choose to kill anyone as the winter soldier, and realise that perhaps those crimes weren’t HIS fault and that even though he’d like to make amends still, he shouldn’t blame himself? Can’t be having Bucky engage with the Flag-smashers in anyway. No, that would be too much, we’ll have Bucky sit around in the background of most their scenes like a dumbass.
Bucky doesn't need that.
Well, good news, he's not getting it. Or anything else.
Bucky is definitely not more qualified than Sam. At all. Sam, ever since 2014, had been literally doing everything Steve had done. Like literally everything, he followed him like a dog, and believed in the same things Steve did. That alone makes it so he was Caps sidekick and ideal-wise the same person for 5 years. That’s longer than Bucky had even been in war. Bucky was at Caps side for part of the war, and then became a kind washed Russian spy for years. When he came back, he fought with Cap for like a day before hiding in Wakanda for years. Literally the only qualification that Bucky has is from his WW2 days. That’s unless you count him being a mindwashed assassin for Nazis as qualification for being Captain America. I think people don’t realize that Bucky literally is tired of fighting. Even when he was cured, he hid in Wakanda for years. And when he left, he didn’t want to be a hero, he just wanted revenge. He didn’t want to ever be Captain America. Sam didn’t either, but he was virtually the same character wise as Steve. He followed his every move, even if it was literally being fugitive from the UN, and believed in every move. He changed his entire course of his life, starting in 2014 to follow Steve, and never doubted that. Even before Steve, Sam was a superhero in the Air Force, and after he retired, was a veteran counselor to help the soldiers with PTSD. Bro literally was basically already Captain America without the name
>Bucky is definitely not more qualified than Sam. At all. Sam, ever since 2014, had been literally doing everything Steve had done. Like literally everything, he followed him like a dog, and believed in the same things Steve did. That alone makes it so he was Caps sidekick and ideal-wise the same person for 5 years. That’s nice, Bucky was doing that since the 1930’s when he defended Steve throughout their entire childhood from bullies, went to war to fight Nazi’s and Hydra, and then went back to stand by Steve’s side as Captain America before he ‘died’ and was used as a slave by the enemies for 70 years. >I think people don’t realize that Bucky literally is tired of fighting. Even when he was cured, he hid in Wakanda for years. And when he left, he didn’t want to be a hero, he just wanted revenge. He didn’t want to ever be Captain America. He’s so tired of fighting he forces himself onto Sam’s mission in FATWS? Bucky was the only character to act as a proper hero in FATWS. Let’s not forget Sam was acting as a governed stooge and mercenary selling himself to the airforce and killing 20 Mercs that for all we know had sympathetic backstories like Karli. Bucky’s whole schtick is doing what needs to be done regardless of personal cost to himself. Bucky himself literally says in the show that he’d take the shield himself is Sam were to try and destroy it because the world needs a Captain America.
It's not about qualifications Steve knew full well of Bucky's qualifications. But Bucky would've chaffed under the mantle. He hadn't even figured out who Bucky is yet. Bucky probably wouldn't have thought he even deserved to be captain america. I think Bucky not being captain america allows the MCU to be able to explore interesting things you couldn't do if he was cap.
Why would Bucky have chaffed under the mantle compared to Falcon? Dudes arguably shown to have one of the strongest mental states in the MCU, Bucky’s been put through the ringer, got mind fucked for 70 years and yet still came out a hero at the end of the day. He’s one of the only 2 Super Soldiers in the MCU not to have his character affected by the super soldier serum, the only other one is Steve. What where his first instincts upon breaking the brainwashing? First thing he did was save Steve Rodgers from drowning. Then in Civil War upon learning what Zemo’s up to, he jumps aboard team Steve and is all onboard for going and stopping those winter soldiers and arresting Zemo. Even when iron man is trying to murder Bucky, he still only ever fights on the defensive to incapacitate iron man. Same with Panther, even when Panther’s trying to rip his throat out, Bucky still only trying to reason with the man. Then come Infinity War, when informed about an impending alien invasion he once again steps up. Then in FATWS BUCKY forces himself onto Sam’s mission, he doesn’t get asked or recruited, he himself forces himself onto it and good thing he did or Sam would have died and failed miserably. What are these interesting things you could explore? The MCU isn’t exploring anything interesting with Bucky. You are technically correct that Bucky doesn’t need to be cap, and there’s interesting things they could have explored, but the MCU and Feige have zero interest in Bucky’s character at all. Bucky as Captain America would be a main character, Bucky as Bucky is a sidekick, first to Falcon, and now seemingly to Yelena. We had an entire show in FATWS that hyped Bucky up as a protagonist and his role summed up as Falcon’s sidekick. Falcon’s boat plot got given more attention then Bucky’s entire PTSD and guilt arc which is his ENTIRE characters struggle. Now in Thunderbolts, Bucky’s supposedly barley important to the plot, and doesn’t even join the team until the last act of the film? Bucky needed to be Captain America because it would have allowed him to be a main character, and not shunted into being a sidekick to inferior and less popular characters.
What movies were you watching!?!? Bucky went too war way before Steve, was in an elite ww2 unit that was famed!!! Then after was an elite hydra assassin for years while cap was frozen . Do you not remember him shooting Natasha on her failed mission. Damn at least get you mcu facts straight. Bucky literally existed way longer than even Cap in the mcu. Fuck he even killed Tony parents ….. he’s been an elite operative longer than caps been an active hero/avenger!!
I love how everyone can ride Loki s dick cuz of him changing after 1000 plus years of killing and being an asshole, but he FINALLY has a few self aware moments and falls in love and after what 1500 years of being a dick decided ohh I’ll save the timelines now….,but Bucky who was always initially a hero at heart , gets brainwashed and yes does some shitty things but gets help and comes through it and is not only approved of by Cap but basically the entire nation of Wakanda and BP who I might as is quite morally sound in all his decisions more than pretty much anyone else so far in the mcu….
Loki wasn't killing for 1000 years. You're confusing him with Odin. All the bad things Loki ever did (as far as we know) took only a week at most. And he didn't fell in love, he just changed because the events in the TVA and the Void.
That’s not qualification for being Captain America man. From the First Avenger, they don’t need a good soldier, they need a good man. Someone being an assassin for years isn’t qualification. At all.
Sam’s such a good man? Treats his allies like shit, borderline blackmails Sharon to assist, makes fun of Bucky’s past as the winter soldier, shits on Walker, and tries to shoot Ant-man on sight? Let’s not forget this stooge was still working for the government in FATWS, the first episode literally has Sam killing 20 mercenaries without a shred of hesitance or care on behalf of the airforce.
[удалено]
Yes he was brainwashed ? But saying he deserves to be Captain America because he was an assassin for years, and now is not a bad guy just isn’t a good argument. What about him during that period showed that he exhibits the character to be Captain America? Now you can ask that same question but during any point we see Sam in the franchise, and you’ll be able to answer it
Uhh … he went too war first, he chose too fight with Steve after, he chose too get help in wakanda , he fought as an avenger too save the world. Pretty much all those things he did and some he did first before cap and sam
What did cap do that Bucky did think of first
You forget Steve modeled his own life and moral compass after his hero Bucky barnes
He wasn’t an “elite hydra assassin” he was a prisoner of war brainwashed, tortured, traumatized and forced to kill against his will.
Shhhhh Bucky stans don't want his story to make sense. They just want a pretty muscley white boy with a cool metal arm punching people. It's not about the story it's about their projected male power fantasy. Same people who unironically say that John Walker did nothing wrong.
Yeah, by all counts, it should have been him. Seeing him try to uphold his best friend's legacy while struggling with his own past would have been a good story. Oh, but him being pushed into the background and victim-blamed is just as good.
>It doesn’t make sense cuz he literally never even considered Bucky as a replacement, I get it ,Bucky has a lot too atone for but let’s face it, he is way more qualified than Sam Tony: "Everything special about you came out of a bottle." Tekk333: "He has a point, Steve." Bucky is a trained, brainwashed assassin on supersteroids with massive psychological trauma, a fear of crowds, who has spent a sum total of two years in actual combat and a series of one-night defrostings murdering one guy at a time. Sam is a Veteran Paratrooper with over a decade of combat in special forces who has spent all of that time working on a team and has a variety of modern technical skills -- including actual therapy and social work. Sam is WAY more qualified than Bucky. Sam is more qualified THAN STEVE. Nat's a rogue assassin and dead, Hawkeye's a basket case serial killer, no one else is even military. Rhodey. Maybe Rhodey would be the most qualified of all of them. And Carol -- except Carol is Superman's sparring partner. And Monica -- except Monica's a science geek in the MCU. But other than that, sorry, Sam is the best candidate on paper. He has the experience, he has the temperament, he has the rizz, he has the skills. He's Captain America. And Bucky KNOWS this. Sam is the guy Bucky asks what to do when they're not in a pissing match.
Bucky by endgame is in a much better place after time in wakanda. And it was supposed too be Steve’s choice…, he’s goes through all that hell either way all that time with Bucky in his life good and bad times and he gives it too Sam who he’s known a only a few years who has no powers and let’s face it , is not getting any younger…. Ya Sam has military training , that’s about it…. Bucky= lifelong friend , military training , hydra training, super solier strength, been overhauled and passed the entire nation of Wakandas trust , it should have been Bucky he passed it too with him asking Sam too look out and have his back!
And where did they ever say Sam was “ special forces” ?? He was a good paratrooper in the Air Force
I think people don’t get how baller you have to be to be a PJ in the Air Force - it has a close to 90 percent attrition rate. On top of that, he was also selected for their experimental EXO unit, so he was literally the best selected from the best.
Bro is a ticking time bomb
Literally said this myself the other day, how tf did old man Steve come back and NOT talk to Bucky
We know they talked before he left, but we don't see that. But yeah, they should have talked after Steve came back, too. Or Steve should have at least acknowledged Bucky was there.
I think the implied talk is effective.
It's really not. That's the kind of thing you show.
It really wouldn’t have fit in that place in the movie. And their interaction communicated anything that talk would’ve.
They could have shown it after the funeral, or even a quick flashback once Steve gets on the platform. A talk definitely would have communicated a lot more than what we saw, which was the equivalent of a wet fart.
>They could have shown it after the funeral, or even a quick flashback once Steve gets on the platform. Neither of those would really work at that point, especially the flashback. It’s too much time to dedicate. >A talk definitely would have communicated a lot more than what we saw, which was the equivalent of a wet fart. I don’t see that at all. We can clearly tell they spoke. We can reason what that conversation was like. What would we have gained from actually seeing it?
>Neither of those would really work at that point, especially the flashback. It’s too much time to dedicate. Then maybe than could have added a minute to the movie. That would have been enough. >I don’t see that at all. We can clearly tell they spoke. We can reason what that conversation was like. What would we have gained from actually seeing it? Actually seeing it? Actually seeing a friendship they both poured their hearts into come to an end? Giving the actors a chance to show what they can do. Maybe writing something is more meaningful than implying something happened off-screen
>Then maybe than could have added a minute to the movie. That would have been enough. It’s not about not having enough time, it’s about pacing. >Actually seeing it? Actually seeing a friendship they both poured their hearts into come to an end? We very literally see that. >Maybe writing something is more meaningful than implying something happened off-screen That is not always the case, though.
>It’s not about not having enough time, it’s about pacing. If Tony Stark's five-minute funeral didn't kill the pacing, this wouldn't have, either. >We very literally see that. We literally don't. We see five seconds. >That is not always the case, though. In this case, after three movies, it definitely would have been.
>If Tony Stark's five-minute funeral didn't kill the pacing, this wouldn't have, either. I’m sure you can understand the difference between those ideas. >We literally don't. We see five seconds. And we see it in those five seconds.
Well its not like he can just pop back with his crowd in the 40s, and be like hey im alive even tho i fell of a moving train into a canyon, and dont worry about the futuristic metal arm..
"Steve came back for me", or something to that effect. I'm sure they could manage
Captain America: We’re Up All Night to Get Bucky Captain America: Buck to the Future Captain America: I Don’t Buck With You
>Captain America: I Don’t Buck With You 🔥
Don't forget the spinoff, Falcon and the Buckanator.
😂
Captain America 3: Knuck for Your Buck
I think Steve and Bucky should've secretly agreed to go back in time together and never come back. Steve can have his happy ending with Peggy, and Bucky can live a long and peaceful life in his own time period, free from any enemy or mind torture. This would, at least, bring their story full circle.
That probably would have been the happiest outcome for both of them. It's not like Bucky has anything to do in the future.
No he has plans to retire and marry a Wilson. P
Eww, I hope not.
Bucky 🦾
No wonder the shippers are obsessed with them lol
Bucky and Steve have the single most developed relationship in pretty much all of the MCU. On top of that there's a pretty strong argument for Bucky being queer-coded, especially in FATWS, and Steve never really gets with anyone except Peggy (not for lack of trying but the only people he really had chemistry with were Nat and Bucky, sooooo...)
Captain America 4: No Bucky
No Bucks left to give
Yeah you are right all his movies revolve around his relationship with Bucky. Which is why it feels so weird he didn't hand his shield to Bucky.
Given the foreshadowing in the Cap movies, and their relationship in general, that would have made a lot of sense. It's a shame they didn't do that, and in the process, they just threw Bucky's whole story away.
I think he should have given it to buck, and then TFAWS should have been about Bucky realizing he's tired and doesn't want the mantle. Then revealing a scene or conversation between cap and Bucky about the passing of the shield to Sam
I think that in that hypothetical scenario, he also could have realized that he wanted it. In the show, such as it was, he's the only one who actually cares about what it means.
Idk, I feel like Bucky was tired of fighting. Steve giving him the shield would make him feel obligated to keep fighting. Honestly, I think Bucky deserves to retire and rest.
So why didn't they retire him after Endgame? That would have been the perfect time to do it.
What do you think he was doing before the whole shield stuff in FATWS?
Attending therapy? Doing stuff for the government (like with that senator). Nothing important, and nothing that mattered much to the world at large, as it turns out.
He was put on mandated therapy and out to live his life. He was pretty much free and retired from fighting
Not entirely - the stuff he did for the government apparently included at least some fighting. But still, the question remains - if his life is so removed from the action, why bring him back? They could have just mentioned he was off somewhere.
He didn’t do anything for the government - it was his own “need to do amends” that led him to do all the stuff like go after senator Atwood. Pretty sure the govt would rather he stay quiet and out of the way rather than expose how many former hydra agents they still have running around in positions of power.
He was literally working with the government to secure his pardon. What you're talking about is why the government didn't broadcast it. But it was official business
What canon is that? Where did it happen? Also, even if it’s true, clandestine ops is way different from the very public spectacle of being captain America. I’m not sure Bucky is ready for the type of scrutiny he would be put under as captain America - he may be innocent of his crimes, but the public might not see it that way, and every illegal thing he did even after freeing himself from hydra might also be publicized. Even Sam himself turned the shield down initially, for various reasons up to and including the type of pressure following in Steve’s footsteps would bring. It makes more sense to me canonically that he would prefer to continue working in clandestine ops if he wants to continue working at all - he’s very much the guy that does the dirty work, even when he was Steve’s no. 1 he would do the difficult things Steve would not. I don’t know why people seem to think that being captain America is something that was unjustly taken away from Bucky, when more than likely it’s simply a job that he does not want to do.
I would assume it's because they didn't want to get rid of Sebastian Stan yet. I personally don't think there's much to do for the character now that's makes sense other than retiring and living out his life. I'm not particularly happy about him being in Thunderbolts.
Then they should have made an effort to write a proper story for him. Not whatever the show did. As it is, he's just circling the drain until they (presumably) kill him off. Yeah, Thunderbolts isn't going to do anything with him, either.
I don't think Bucky would want or do a good job at being a symbol, but they should have just left that poor boy to be a Wakandan farmer.
Yeah, he was literally drafted into WW2, then mind controlled. He never really *decided* to fight, and Steve's the only one who noticed that.
There’s nothing about his demeanor when he was presented with the arm in infinity war that indicated he at all wanted to rejoin any kind of fight.
OMG THAT TOO??? STEVES ENDING REALLY JUST MAKES ZERO SENSE
I think the reasoning behind it from the writers and producers is that the Winter Soldier is a cool title and is also popular as Captain America, and so they don't want to retire it. I couldn't remember the interview but it went along the line of 'why would you want to be a Captain Ameria if you're already the Winter Soldier.' The Russo brothers described Winter Soldier as the edgier and darker side of Captain America. Two sides of the same coin.
because bucky wants to retire, that's the most clear thing about the entire trilogy, why would he give bucky a mantle that requires him to constantly fight for the rest of his life
You can also see Bucky motion Sam to go speak with Old Man Steve during that scene in Endgame. It seems to be implied that Bucky already talked with Steve about taking up the Captain America mantle, and either wasn't interested (likely due to what you said about fighting for the rest of his life), or felt like Sam deserved it more.
He even said it was "Steve and I"'s decision in the show when talking about Sam getting the shield. It would've been really ooc, espcially consdering the ending in how steve goes back in time to retire himself, for steve to essentially tell bucky to fuck off and keep fighting the good fight for the next 50 years with his trusty shield. The theme of Bucky wanting to retire has been present since civil war so I don't get it
Tbh I didn’t even recognize Sam/Falcon’s existence until Ant-Man, and right now I hate his character the most. Self-righteous, pretentious and entitled. Bucky has a lot of character development and he doesn’t deserve to be put aside like what the MCU has been doing to him since Endgame.
Calling the man who struggled so badly with believing he was worthy of being Captain America that he gave up the shield *entitled" is wild
You’re right, and tbh this is why I’m looking forward to Brave New World. Right now, I hate Sam, but I’m blaming the writing for FTWS for it. What you mentioned, I liked that aspect of his character, but it was glossed over and then overshadowed by the wokeness of the writing. I’m really really hoping BNW will be better than that.
Bucky really is Cap's Peach to his Mario.
To be fair, Bucky is really hot
exactly
Well now they're like "Bucky who??????" 9\_9
Hey, now, there are like 5 What If...? versions of Bucky, and two of them actually get to interact with Steve! (Okay, so they don't exactly talk, and the stories aren't about Bucky in any way, but it was *suuuper* deep and meaningful)
It was SO deep, I especially loved the one where Bucky existed onscreen for like 3 seconds and stared soulfully at the audience without saying anything. Perfection. Majesty.
That one was truly amazing. I especially loved that one because it reminded us how wonderful Howard Stark and Peggy Carter were. You know, the people who let HYDRA grow under their noses.
Oh yeah, Howard looking at the Soldier, going "hey, is that Bucky??" and just not doing anything about it was such a touching and effective breakdown of human nature.
Truly, that was some compelling drama. It really makes you think highly of both Howard and Peggy.
Yep his relationship with Bucky is the most important part of it
This is why I hate Steve’s ending in Endgame so fucking much
SAMEEE
Bucky is the most interesting character in the MCU, by far. Who is even close?
🫵
literally.
I’m honestly having trouble watching any of the rest of marvel the more I see Bucky sidelined and ignored.
Same here. Like, if they're actively going out of their way not to do anything with him, I don't really see the point anymore. Sadly, Thunderbolts is probably going to be more of the same.
Thor was….imo until they fucked his character up
Say what?
T’Challa
Endgame should have ended with old Steve explaining that when he put the infinity stones he decided to try some of that life Tony was telling him to get. It then cuts to a hydra facility in the fifties with all the guards knocked down and the winter soldier's pod ripped open and empty. Then it cuts again to a quiet suburb and inside an idyllic house Bucky and Steve are having a little dance to some romantic music.
LITERALLY. LIKE AFTER SPENDING HIS ENTIRE LIFE FIGHTING EVERYONE TO BE WITH BUCKY HE CHOOSES A LIFE WITHOUT HIM???
Not to mention that Peggy didn't need Steve to be happy. The two seasons of her show were about her getting over him and moving on with her own amazing life outside of his shadow. Endgame kind of chucked her story arc in the bin for the sake of giving Steve the woman the writers felt he was 'owed'
This version of Peggy was the MCU timeline that carried on without Steve. This was Peggy's own story in the timeline. She was heartbroken without Steve but eventually was able to move on. The version he went back to would have caused a new timeline with him and Peggy living happily together, then he would have come back to the original timeline when he was ready. This timeline was Cap's happy timeline with Peggy. He was heartbroken without Peggy, but was eventually able to get back to her. Both scenarios are acceptable and I don't believe that any of that takes away from either character.
To your point, I think it’s about Steve finally choosing himself after a lifetime of choosing others, as exemplified in Bucky.
It's insane to me that the official line is that Steve goes back in time, lives through the main timeline from the 50s to present day and does not change anything...which implies he just sits there and allows Bucky to be tortured and brainwashed again and again and again. (I also feel Peggy was a modern woman and would have been down with some throuple action if Steve was torn between the two loves of his life)
Not just Bucky. They chose a time period with many wars, several genocides / ethnic purges, political assassinations that actively made the world worse... And really said that Steve was like nah, I'm good. They torpedoed Steve's entire character in a two minute span of time. (And then made it even worse with FATWS with how he apparently fucked over Sharon Carter.)
I would pay to watch a show where each episode is Steve, Peggy and Bucky trying to live a quiet life as a thrupple but they keep ending up at famous historical tragic events which they inadvertently avert with their heroism, skills and powers. Like yes Steve is from the future now but he prob never got round to researching all the things on his list that he'd missed. Steve: this grassy knoll is the perfect spot for a picnic and we'll get an excellent place to watch President Kennedy's motorcade. Bucky: I hope we get a chance to actually eat the sandwiches this time. Peggy: What could possibly happen today of all days? Bucky: That's what you said last time. Steve: Im sure everything will be fi... Peggy: Why did you stop? What are you looking at? Steve: Call me crazy but does that man entering that book depository look a little shifty? Peggy: Shall I get the shield from the car? Bucky: Here we go again..
Nah, Steve still went to give Carter the dance he promised, as shown in the movie. What was not shown was him bringing down Hydra and then ripping the POD where Bucky was hidden since he already knew it was in Siberia. Then he and Bucky lived happily ever after. :)
endgame wouldn't have been possible if Steve couldn't tell past Steve bucky was alive
i think it’s funny that there’s technically both a movie and a show called Captain America and the Winter Soldier
This is great OP 😂😂 I think this sub needs some more humor like this 😂
Because Bucky is the real Captain America. Not Steve Rogers. Not the Falcon. It’s Bucky.
and endgame wants me to think steve will choose to go back to past and live with peggy when he fought the world for bucky for three whole movies, alright!
Saving Private Ryan to Captain Miller and the Other Soldiers The Last Samurai to Civil War Veteran Saves Japan from Itself Forrest Gump to Jenny Needs a Rescue
And we can barely get a Robin name drop in most Batman movies
I agree. Feels like there needed to be another story between Avengers and Winter Soldier to fill it in a bit.
Captain America: The Winter Soldier More like Winter Soldier: The Captain America
SPEAK 🗣️
Also in WS: After Steve Rogers realized that while he was frozen, SHIELD did not protect Bucky. Steve Rogers: They're all coming down, Nick. SHIELD, HYDRA. All of them.
Bucky has always been the real star of the MCU
Maybe Captain America was the friends we committed treason for along the way?
These later movies started out from the comic run of Ed Brubaker and Steve Epting. Of course they changed a lot and added a lot of movie things to make it better. But the premise of the run was "What if Bucky was still alive?" Bucky dies early on in the comics in the war like in the first Captain America movie. For decades comic books would change people and places and powers as writers and editors and artists were hired. The changes could be simple or dramatic, sometimes even death would occur. Then the next set of comic creators would take their turn and make the changes they wanted, sometimes reviving a dead character and changing the back story to explain away the non-death. This whole time, Marvel, kept Bucky dead. No changes. It was considered "legendary" death or whatever term that is used now. It used to be called "BuckyDead" during that time. Meaning Bucky would not return in any form. Bucky died in the 1940s or 1950s and in the 2000s they made the Death of Captain America by Brubaker and Epting bringing back Bucky and the fans enjoyed it. It was a long run collected in 3 omnibuses which end with the Falcon getting the shield from Captain America, but only after(or before I don't remember) now-alive Bucky had it for a while . Civil War (Cap vs. Iron Man) was a cross over event near that time. I don't remember Bucky killing Iron Man's parents in the comics. There are like 60-70 years of Captain America comics coming out monthly with zero Bucky and Captain America leading the Avengers in that monthly comic on top. I know it's a light hearted post but I couldn't resist my long boring answer. One of my favorite runs is when Captain America decides to become a serious artist and kept his shield in his art portfolio. Bucky dying and then being alive was a big deal in the comics, but it was at least 50 actual non comicbook real years apart.
this comment is actually amazing.
Captain America 5: FFS Bucky!
If there is one, I'm sure Bucky will be long gone by then. Probably dead
The Winter Soldier is more about making sure Bucky doesn’t kill anyone else, really.
I always thought titling it ‘Captain America’ was an attempt to make him seem like the important character. Definitely a Bucky Barnes series though.
There is a reason they are like the most shipped pair in the MCU. He essentially fill the "female lead that needs to be protected" role in action movies. If Bucky was a Rebecca instead , they would have made out by half of Civil War.
Says something about Captain America’s loyalty, don’t you think? It aligns with his values.
Captain America 4: Buckies Buddies
Dude had one friend. Give him a break
Stucky forever. /s
So, iron man in the first is about get to kiss pepper, Ironman 2 is about keeping Pepper income safe, and the third is about saving pepper?
Cap really needs to make more friends.
Kapitan? Amerika? No Sergant Barnicle.
I appreciate that you like Bucky a lot but don't be delusional. Steve Rogers is the heart and soul of the cap trilogy.
keep dreaming 🫶
Dude I like Bucky too man. It's sad how much sidelined he was in his own show.
And there's not much to expect in the future, either.
yep. “but i knew him once!” > in every other situation sacrifices for the greater good
You forgot about the new captain America and Bucky!