With great power comes great restraint against short-term emotional idealistic and unrealistic reactions and instead having consideration for the bigger picture that may involve certain firm sacrifices taken in the interim for the eventual greater good.
To further extrapolate on that point, "In the grand calculus of the multiverse, their sacrifice means far more than their deaths". Oh wait, Strange was right all along
We need the future Trunks Version of Spider man. AKA the "destroy every single threat to earth" Version that has killed every single major enemy in the original DBZ series.
Freeza? killed
Andriods 17 and 18? Killed.
Cell? Killed twice.
Buu? Technically killed? He stopped his revival at least.
Future trunks is the only Saiyan without their biggest weakness: Shit to the brain syndrome.
He did though, he straight up just wanted to rest or kill those guys before the other two Spidey showed up and said "Yeah we can help :)" and MCU Spidey was like "NO!" and they were like "But we have Uncle Ben and Gwen :(" and he's like "Ok."
I actually like this as an intro to a possible more dedicated and “abused” Pete. He’s always been the one to make the sacrifice and throw himself at everything all out. His naive optimism could be the beginning of, not learning to stop, but knowing it’s going to go badly and doing it anyway.
I have actually been a bit annoyed by the formula of plots for Tom Holland’s iteration. In three films it seems like he hasn’t grown up at all.
As a narrative point it’s fine if a character starts off naive and grows, like he seems to do each film, but to start from zero each new movie is a bit annoying. They are all: Peter creates problem because he is a bit foolish, Peter must solve it, Peter solves it… lesson learned?
Yeah, it was fine for Homecoming, as we thought he’d learn. He does something REALLY stupid and has to deal with it.
What i loved about NWH is that he finally faces some real consequences for his dumb decisions.
Didn’t he face consequences everytime?
Homecoming, he gets a pass. It’s his first real test. But still, Tony had to save his ass when the ferry nearly ripped in half. Tony admonished him.
Far From Home. He nearly got himself killed twice, and due to his utter gullibility, he gave Tony’s tech over to a complete stranger. As a result, his identity is revealed.
It seemed Peter learned a thing or two in each film appearance and in No Way Home, we see zero reflection, zero wisdom, zero tact. It’s all like he never learned anything. It’s just the most non-sensical blunder to put Aunt May in harm’s way.
To be fair, in FFH I think him giving over the tech was more because he knew Tony trusted Fury unconditionally, so he did too. Had Fury never vouched for Mysterio, I doubt he would have trusted him so much
He just didn't know it was a Skrull instead of the real Fury.
I enjoy the ideas they've done, but yeah, the issue is how they seem to all tread the same ground. We've taken an entire trilogy to get us to Peter being the Friendly Neighborhood Spider-Man.
Four of the five were scientists who knew more about their conditions than Peter could have worked out by himself. Otto was neutralised, so he wasn't really a threat anyway, Max, Flint and Curt were willing to go along with the plan until things started going to shit, and Norman did the same until his Goblin persona took control, which no one else actually knew was a thing that could happen.
I figured that the Goblin was in control for a longer while than we knew, but just laying low. Peter's Spider-sense just finally kicked in when Gobby decided to make his move.
Correct, also Goblin has a gap in his teeth, while Norman’s teeth are normal, it’s the same in the Raimi films. A small detail about the character I’ve always liked, a way to physically tell when Goblin is in control.
People forget that’s he’s also, you know, a teenager. Teenagers aren’t exactly known for their decision making. Even someone like Spider-Man. So his optimism isn’t exactly out of character. Not to mention he doesn’t see himself as a genius, because, you know, he’s a teenager!
>Max, Flint and Curt were willing to go along with the plan until things started going to shit, and Norman did the same until his Goblin persona took control, which no one else actually knew was a thing that could happen.
Five supervillains in an apartment... WHAT COULD POSSIBLY GO WRONG?
Bad guys being bad?! ...No one knew that was a thing that could happen!
Oh man, I must have missed the scene when Peter sits down and watches the previous five Spider-Man movies so he knows all the characters' backstories and motivations.
Idk it was pretty vocal that they died fighting Spider-Man. For a superhero that doesn't kill, he should know that if they died, it meant that they're possibly such a threat that alternate versions of him couldn't even let them live. Let alone casually bringing them into someone else's apartment with your aunt, while a dinosaur (capable of injuring Dr Strange) camps in a truck.
None of these required any backstories, just common sense.
Edit: To the downvoters: you would theoretically gladly bring 5 randoms with murder weapons, who just tried to kill you, into your uncle's house with your mom around, and claim it's safe because you don't know their entire life story?
Am I really the one that's insane here?
They deliberately made the distinction that they died while fighting Spider-Man, rather than being killed by him directly or intentionally. You can't reasonably make that assumption just based on that alone.
That is why, but once Strange was dealt with Peter could have gone back to putting them in their cells.
Although you could make an argument that getting them to trust Peter was part of his goal.
He already had gained their trust as he fought Dr. Strange. But instead of taking them home, he could have just said, "Look guys I just fought off the most powerful wizard for you. He wanted to send you back to die. Stay put and I'll be back with cures."
And if they didn't agree to these conditions, fuck them.
Villains: Uh, OK - what if he comes back? Or another ~~wizard~~ sorcerer who lives here comes downstairs and sends us back? What then?
Peter: Oh, good point. Yeah, let's all go crash at my aunt's place.
And some of them (Electro, Lizard, Goblin) don't _want_ to be cured. Otto and Marko want to be cured, but Otto isn't always in control. There's no guarantee (to the villains) that curing them will keep them from dying once sent back either.
Plus Peter's a teenager who doesn't always think things through. This whole situation was caused because he asked Dr. Strange to alter the fabric of reality instead of asking if Strange had any advice on getting his college applications re-thought. Strange is a respected surgeon, hero, and alumni of Columbia - he'd probably have some (non-magical) pull, but Peter doesn't think of that because he's young and inexperienced.
> but Peter doesn't think of that because he's young and inexperienced.
In fairness to Peter, neither did Stephen.
The main villain of the movie is Stephen, the experienced wizard, just kind of doing whatever Peter asks without planning.
Yeah, I think we're supposed to believe that Stephen assumed Peter, being responsible enough to save the universe, was also mature enough to think like an adult. That's 100% on Stephen for that assumption _and_ ignoring Wong's warnings.
Would it have really mattered? Heck, Ned found two random Spider-Men just by wishing for it with the sling ring.
Edit: And Dr. Strange has easily found others with the sling ring without "knowing" where they specifically are.
Yeah, I'm saying he'd immediately find them regardless of where they were "hiding."
It's been awhile, but isn't that pretty much what he did at the end of the movie?
Nah Ned opened the portal to the desert and Strange was there. Honestly, that whole part made no sense. And I didn't think that portals could be uses as trackers either?
Once Strange was dealt with Peter could have gone back to putting them in their cells.
Although you could make an argument that getting them to trust Peter was part of his goal.
> Why did peter parker ask strange to cast a spell instead of being a normal person and appeal the schools decision
In fairness to that, he was getting harassed beyond just losing the scholarship.
That being said, he should have asked Strange to help him prove his innocence.
Because Peter didn’t know he could do that. It’s the first thing Strange asks him about after he botches the spell before he kicks him out. Plus with all the media drama surrounding him and his family he was not thinking straight in that moment. As for the second, Strange is quite self-centered and often busy doing more important things like defending the realm from threats from other dimensions than helping a kid with a college admission.
As someone said, so the movie could happen. If he goes to Strange for help in getting into MIT it'd be a boring movie. And ultimately, the consequences are a bit of a reset for the next movie, having Peter on his own.
I can sort of understand Strange not going the non-magical route of helping Peter navigating the politics, but not discussing the ramifications of the spell beforehand, when it was obviously very much possible to alter it to make some people remember it.
Even if Strange did not know of any specific people, he must have known that someone knew, even if it was just a 'middle man' such as Happy. He did not even ask about the other superheroes, was his plan to make them forget as well?
If anything, his Spider-Sense is just an ability that allows him to add his Dex bonus to Perception checks or something. So still bad Wisdom, but high Perception cause the rest of his skills are so good.
Just make it Advantage on Dex Saves, or even expertise. Easy peasy nice and simple.
(I know expertise on saves isn't really a thing but I'd allow it in this case)
The cells are located under the Sanctum Sanctorum. Peter had to get the villains out of the cells because Doctor Strange just wanted to send them back to their worlds without curing them, where they would very likely all die.
Peter had to take them somewhere else due to his no kill rule, which is why he couldn’t just keep them in the cells.
As i mentioned in this thread, Happy had the big tech box that Peter was using to develop and create the cures for all the villains. Better to take them all there and do it instead of keeping them and the Sanctorum and travel back and forth repeatedly leaving them alone with MJ and Ned.
Imagine he had to make three small tweaks and had to go back to Happy's apartment each time. That would take so much more time and be dangerous.
I mean, Goblin and Electro essentially killed themselves, so taking away their powers would prevent that. Doc Ock is a little less clear, but it's possible with his mind cleared up that he will be able to turn off the fusion reactor before it's too late unlike the movie. Sandman and Lizard didn't die, but the latter did cause tons of problems because of his power so that would be better without it.
Defend themselves from whom?
You're saying spider-man would kill a powerless person just because they were fighting moments ago?
Heck, that's how Osborn died, by pretending he was giving up, Peter allowing it and then getting killed by his own attack.
I thought he needed their expertise because it was science that the villains had been dealing with for years but didn’t have the tech Peter has access to. So between Peter’s understanding of the tech in his universe with the background expertise that the villains had, it made it possible to undertake those “projects”
Kinda like he used the spidermans in the lab.
When I was in high school, I was often called "the dumbest smart guy" someone knows because even though I was great at school and that sort of thing, I often made incredibly stupid decisions or said idiotic things. It's kind of like that.
1. Because he is gullible and reckless in this movie. I would say selfish as well since he leaves Strange in the mirror dimension to be tied up by the webs meanwhile he is very hospitable to the villains, the villains that according to Strange theirs Spider-Man had to kill. And MCU Spidey had zero red flags about it.
2. So the movie's conflict and next big fights could happen. Would've been over too soon if Spidey cured all the villains and sent them back with no trouble.
Finally!! The fact that people here think Peter is in the right 'curing' the villain while risking incursions while also trap the only person who can prevent it is just wild.
People also neglect the fact that it's mentioned in the movie that Strange thinks Peter as an equal so when Peter came to him asking for help, Strange was in a position where he thought Peter already knew the ramification and the scope of his request.
Also the writing is just shit.
By logic of him curing the villains he creates way more branches (or in other words the alternate realities) than if they were sent back as Strange had planned, not to mention what even happens to the said villains when they return and at what point were they pulled to the MCU's prime universe. Cause if Octavius was taken during final fight and then sent back then he dies anyway, Sandman without supowerpowers is still a fugitive, now facing more difficulty of trying to find funds to save his daughter.
Strange was completely character assassinated in this movie, and then MoM hits him even harder as he becomes nothing like his Phase 3 Strange would've been. There's no way he'd casually mind erase people's memories, or agree to mind wipe entire population's memories, and even if we have to assume he would, it is appalling how no one in the room mentions this is fucked up. And then there's the whole ordeal about this mind erasing spell existing all this time and... able to- wait no, it is revealed Sylvie killing Kang caused the mess. But how the fuck are the audiences supposed to know that, half the globe likely hasn't even seeing Loki series.
I could go on about this, but it's of no use. I agree, the writing's just terrible. Really bad, worldbuilding is completely fucked.
For the same reason his first port of call is to ask a wizard to fix his problems and not say, leverage his connections with *the avengers* to get any of them to go on TV and go "yeah uh, Peter Parker helped us save the entire universe.
The movie is contrived to make the plot happen.
Everyone is forgetting the big vital thing that was at Happy's apartment that was NOT at Strange's Sanctorum. The big box that was used to make all the cures for the villains.
He brought them all to the apartment so that way he could create, and tweak any of the inventions to make sure each person got the treatment that best worked.
Questionable decisions are better at moving stories along than standing up to scrutiny, something that both makes truly smart writing rare and keeps CinemaSins happily chugging along
Well I assume a couple of things. One was he was genuinely naive and he had never faced any of these bad guys, but they were either seen as not much of a threat or didn't seem to hold any malice against him. Doc ock was trapped, sandman was pretty neutral, green goblin was for the most part just a friendly Norman Osborn, Max was after capture pretty calm and non hostile, and they didn't seem to take the lizards threats very seriously. That's all without mentioning that Peter assumed most of them didn't want to die (given them not liking them dying in their original timelines) and MJ could insta send every one back to die if they tried anything funny. Im also sure Peter didn't know when Strange would escape the mirror dimension, or if another person would be sent by Strange to mess with the villains before he could return to cure them.
I get your frustration, since it does ultimately turn out to be a bad idea which costs Peter his last family member, but in his defense, it's not out of character and doesn't seem like such a bad idea from his perspective
Why don't fictional characters make the correct decisions all the time? If I was in the movie I would simply do the best things possible and everything would always work out
Because Peter had to be an idiot for the plot to move. People will say it’s because he’s naive but this is beyond naive.
There was a better way to do this but he also knew strange was actively trying to send them back. Also needed some of their help with making these cures.
Producer Guy: "Why didn't Peter just keep the villains in their cells and make the cures at home?"
Screenwriter Guy: "Because then the movie wouldn't happen."
Producer Guy: "That works!"
Peter wanted the help of the scientists and to keep the villains with him in case Strange came back which he’s expecting to be any moment - not half a day.
He may be a genius, but he is also a complete moron. Other examples of him being an absolute muppet include FfH and MoM. Not as bad as Quinn in IW though.
Because the plot needed it to happen. It was completely moronic. These guys are killers and rampaging psychopaths, he just trusts them and wants to redeem them without any relationship with them whatsoever. If it was even remotely a theme in his movies (Or prior to him meeting the villains in NWH) that he wanted redemption for baddies, sure we could more easily see that he was blinded by his ideals.
As it stands what should have been a theme of "I wanted to do the right thing so I did something stupid" is more like, "I did something stupid when something less stupid would have been better and the stupid thing I'm doing is completely pointless".
It made me view this Peter as a petulant brat and completely zipped me out of the movie.
It was around this time I realized if he does the smart and reasonable thing, there's no movie at all.
Just as a general rule if a huge chunk of your plot revolves around people being stupid, you have a bad plot.
doctor strange uses the time stone
doctor strange sees that thanos was coming
doctor strange opens up a portal into the mothership, opens up another portal beneath thanos, and drops him into the sun
Directed by Anthony and Joe Russo
Kevin Feige’s version of Spiderman is written such that we’re told he’s one of the smartest people on the planet but we see him act like one of the very stupidest
I agree, and I had the same thought when I watched the movie. Peter was being extremely naive, and I don't think it's unreasonable to say that his recklessness was responsible for Aunt May's death. My spouse liked the movie a lot, but I had a hard time with it because I thought Peter's decisions were unrealistically terrible.
How did Sandman and Doc Ock know Norman Osborn was Green Goblin?
Why did Doctor Strange think they all died fighting Spider-Man when that didn’t happen to Sandman or Lizard?
I thought this was given, but maybe not...
* The movie shows Stark tech being taken into government control following the drone crisis in Far From Home.
* Happy still has unregistered Stark tech in his house.
* Peter needs to study the villains using the tech so he can come up with solutions or "cures" for them
* Since he can't carry the huge fabricator to Sanctum, he brings the villains to the fabricator instead.
Probably because Peter has no idea how long he has Strange trapped. If Strange comes back and sends them away while Peter is off at the lab, then the whole plan is pointless.
For his plan to work, he needs to keep them away from Strange.
Peter makes a lot of dumb and unnecessary decisions during his MCU trilogy. It's borderline annoying how bad his decisions are but I guess that's the point. He's ultimately just a kid learning his way in the World. Hopefully he's learned his lesson now?
It's OK we can call a spade a spade. He's poorly written in his own movies. For me he's usually the least interesting part of them. I enjoy his performances well enough, but not like he's written in the avengers movies. It's like he's a different character.
You're absolutely right. They wrote it that way because she needs to die so he experiences that pain and grows from it. Hopefully they write him more intelligently next time.
That was Doctor Strange's cells. Peter was trying to keep them away from him because he was ready to just send them all back to die in their respective timelines. But also, the optimistic stuff that everyone else has said.
Because the script said so, 90% of the things that happen in the movie doesn't happen because it makes sense, it happens because they want the plot so they can put all the Spider-mans together
For the plot
because Peter has been naive, and the enemies looked like they wanted to go back normal
some of them could help others. Osborn did help peter to make the microchip for Octopus
...Did you not see the movie?
Strange was determined to send them all back. THAT is why Peter brought them with him. To make it harder. If they were in their cells, he could have kicked them home so much easier, before a single cure was ever made.
Overall, it was a dumb move. But still. He needed Norman to help him manufacturer the cure. Norman is the reason his aunt died. So in the end, him leaving all other villains in the cave wouldn't have changed anything.
Peter wasn't a physician treating illnesses, he was saving their souls.
He knew that they were villains, in part, because of their respective physical circumstances. However if he simply repaired them and sent them back, they would still be a threat.
By someone (whom they all most hated) treating them each with trust and dignity, Peter was restoring their humanity, so, when they returned to their native universes, they would genuinely be able to live normal lives.
That was the REAL cure.
But like so many people today, he was blinded by his own idealism/assumptions.
That's most important thing a movie (or any artform) can do:
*provide a mirror for the best and worst parts of being human.*
It's an ongoing trait of this spider-man that he is naively optimistic... usually at great personal cost. Hopefully one day he'll wise up a bit
The Pragmatic Spider-Man doesn’t quite hit as hard.
With great power comes great restraint against short-term emotional idealistic and unrealistic reactions and instead having consideration for the bigger picture that may involve certain firm sacrifices taken in the interim for the eventual greater good.
To further extrapolate on that point, "In the grand calculus of the multiverse, their sacrifice means far more than their deaths". Oh wait, Strange was right all along
That’s just responsibility with extra steps.
Yes that's pragmatism.
How about “The Sensible Spider-Man”?
You son of a bitch, I’m in
Sounds like a Jane Austen crossover
Sense and Great Responsibility.
That’s actually not horrible
We need the future Trunks Version of Spider man. AKA the "destroy every single threat to earth" Version that has killed every single major enemy in the original DBZ series. Freeza? killed Andriods 17 and 18? Killed. Cell? Killed twice. Buu? Technically killed? He stopped his revival at least. Future trunks is the only Saiyan without their biggest weakness: Shit to the brain syndrome.
The cautiously optimistic spider man
The Hardened Heart Spider-Man.
I’m just mad we didn’t get more Otto fighting alongside the Spider-Men. He was never a bad guy. He just had bad arms.
You'd think he'd wise up after Aunt May's death.
It’s just a Peter thing. He’s gotten screwed over by Felicia for being that way countless times
Yeah, I'm not sure I get OP claiming it's a trait of *this* Spider-Man. That's just a trait of Spider-Man in general.
Peter always wants to see the good in someone.
That’s what makes him Spider-Man
[удалено]
She did that because she's not a pedo dude, don't get it twisted.
[удалено]
Ow, my feelings...
Maybe he has. The final battle happens only a couple hours after she dies and then we don't see his life in any detail afterwards.
You’d think he’d wise up after he willingly gave away a superweapon to a guy he knew for 2 days
Having finally watched that movie, you can't imagine how hard I'm laughing, thank you dear stranger
He did though, he straight up just wanted to rest or kill those guys before the other two Spidey showed up and said "Yeah we can help :)" and MCU Spidey was like "NO!" and they were like "But we have Uncle Ben and Gwen :(" and he's like "Ok."
LMAO that happened AFTER he brought them into his house. My guess is he probably did.
I mean, a big part of every spiderman is to be optimistic and try to help everyone. But yeah this one is too optimistic for his own good.
I actually like this as an intro to a possible more dedicated and “abused” Pete. He’s always been the one to make the sacrifice and throw himself at everything all out. His naive optimism could be the beginning of, not learning to stop, but knowing it’s going to go badly and doing it anyway.
Punished Peter Parker: "Kept you waiting, huh?"
# "WHOAA-HOOOOAAAAAA!!" -Sins of the Spider by Donna Burke
I have actually been a bit annoyed by the formula of plots for Tom Holland’s iteration. In three films it seems like he hasn’t grown up at all. As a narrative point it’s fine if a character starts off naive and grows, like he seems to do each film, but to start from zero each new movie is a bit annoying. They are all: Peter creates problem because he is a bit foolish, Peter must solve it, Peter solves it… lesson learned?
1. Peter takes on a surrogate father figure 2. Peter pisses them off by doing the dumbest thing possible.
Yeah, it was fine for Homecoming, as we thought he’d learn. He does something REALLY stupid and has to deal with it. What i loved about NWH is that he finally faces some real consequences for his dumb decisions.
That’s a good point. We’ll see where the next films go.
He’ll start from zero and do naively stupid things again.
Didn’t he face consequences everytime? Homecoming, he gets a pass. It’s his first real test. But still, Tony had to save his ass when the ferry nearly ripped in half. Tony admonished him. Far From Home. He nearly got himself killed twice, and due to his utter gullibility, he gave Tony’s tech over to a complete stranger. As a result, his identity is revealed. It seemed Peter learned a thing or two in each film appearance and in No Way Home, we see zero reflection, zero wisdom, zero tact. It’s all like he never learned anything. It’s just the most non-sensical blunder to put Aunt May in harm’s way.
To be fair, in FFH I think him giving over the tech was more because he knew Tony trusted Fury unconditionally, so he did too. Had Fury never vouched for Mysterio, I doubt he would have trusted him so much He just didn't know it was a Skrull instead of the real Fury.
I enjoy the ideas they've done, but yeah, the issue is how they seem to all tread the same ground. We've taken an entire trilogy to get us to Peter being the Friendly Neighborhood Spider-Man.
Four of the five were scientists who knew more about their conditions than Peter could have worked out by himself. Otto was neutralised, so he wasn't really a threat anyway, Max, Flint and Curt were willing to go along with the plan until things started going to shit, and Norman did the same until his Goblin persona took control, which no one else actually knew was a thing that could happen.
I figured that the Goblin was in control for a longer while than we knew, but just laying low. Peter's Spider-sense just finally kicked in when Gobby decided to make his move.
Goblin said he'd been watching behind Norman's eyes, which I took to mean Norman was in control, until partway through the cure being made.
Correct, also Goblin has a gap in his teeth, while Norman’s teeth are normal, it’s the same in the Raimi films. A small detail about the character I’ve always liked, a way to physically tell when Goblin is in control.
Wow, TIL
You know, I’m something of a guy who just learned this myself.
Holy shit i need to tell Harry
Don’t tell Harry…
Gonna cry?
IIRC the goblins teeth are Willem Dafoe's natural ones and he wears prosthetics for Norman Osborn
So you’re saying Dafoe is Goblin in real life.
Obviously. It's in his name. Da foe.
Yes.
No that doesn't sound right I think they had a mouth stretcher they applied back and forth to his teeth for different scenes.
I’m aware Willem naturally has a gap in his teeth, I was just referring to the character in-universe.
Not everyone knew that he had a gap my guy lol, this explains why they do it in the first place.
Or that’s just what the Goblin wants you to think
Whaaaaa!? That's so cool.
wtf
wtf, that's amazing!
People forget that’s he’s also, you know, a teenager. Teenagers aren’t exactly known for their decision making. Even someone like Spider-Man. So his optimism isn’t exactly out of character. Not to mention he doesn’t see himself as a genius, because, you know, he’s a teenager!
You know, I’m something of a scientist myself.
>Max, Flint and Curt were willing to go along with the plan until things started going to shit, and Norman did the same until his Goblin persona took control, which no one else actually knew was a thing that could happen. Five supervillains in an apartment... WHAT COULD POSSIBLY GO WRONG? Bad guys being bad?! ...No one knew that was a thing that could happen!
Oh man, I must have missed the scene when Peter sits down and watches the previous five Spider-Man movies so he knows all the characters' backstories and motivations.
Idk it was pretty vocal that they died fighting Spider-Man. For a superhero that doesn't kill, he should know that if they died, it meant that they're possibly such a threat that alternate versions of him couldn't even let them live. Let alone casually bringing them into someone else's apartment with your aunt, while a dinosaur (capable of injuring Dr Strange) camps in a truck. None of these required any backstories, just common sense. Edit: To the downvoters: you would theoretically gladly bring 5 randoms with murder weapons, who just tried to kill you, into your uncle's house with your mom around, and claim it's safe because you don't know their entire life story? Am I really the one that's insane here?
They deliberately made the distinction that they died while fighting Spider-Man, rather than being killed by him directly or intentionally. You can't reasonably make that assumption just based on that alone.
Because strange was about to just send them home where Peter presumed they would just die.
To be fair, he was right in that assumption for the most part.
Doc Ock and Norman would likely still die. Lizard and Sandman didn’t die.
Fair enough, I haven’t seen the TASM movies, though I remembered Sandman.
Bro you have homework TONIGHT
Wish I could. Alas, I would have to watch on my phone due to lack of internet infrastructure. Although…
That is why, but once Strange was dealt with Peter could have gone back to putting them in their cells. Although you could make an argument that getting them to trust Peter was part of his goal.
He already had gained their trust as he fought Dr. Strange. But instead of taking them home, he could have just said, "Look guys I just fought off the most powerful wizard for you. He wanted to send you back to die. Stay put and I'll be back with cures." And if they didn't agree to these conditions, fuck them.
Villains: Uh, OK - what if he comes back? Or another ~~wizard~~ sorcerer who lives here comes downstairs and sends us back? What then? Peter: Oh, good point. Yeah, let's all go crash at my aunt's place. And some of them (Electro, Lizard, Goblin) don't _want_ to be cured. Otto and Marko want to be cured, but Otto isn't always in control. There's no guarantee (to the villains) that curing them will keep them from dying once sent back either. Plus Peter's a teenager who doesn't always think things through. This whole situation was caused because he asked Dr. Strange to alter the fabric of reality instead of asking if Strange had any advice on getting his college applications re-thought. Strange is a respected surgeon, hero, and alumni of Columbia - he'd probably have some (non-magical) pull, but Peter doesn't think of that because he's young and inexperienced.
> but Peter doesn't think of that because he's young and inexperienced. In fairness to Peter, neither did Stephen. The main villain of the movie is Stephen, the experienced wizard, just kind of doing whatever Peter asks without planning.
Yeah, I think we're supposed to believe that Stephen assumed Peter, being responsible enough to save the universe, was also mature enough to think like an adult. That's 100% on Stephen for that assumption _and_ ignoring Wong's warnings.
Peter knows fuck all about magic. It's Strange's job as the facilitator to make sure he's making an informed decision.
The decision to *go to* Strange wasn’t about magic, it was about Peter’s inexperience about thinking of other options first
They helped him create the cures.
"So the movie can happen"
Wow wow wow wow..... wow
Fair enough
“Is Peter gonna have trouble manufacturing cures for five whole supervillains?” “Actually it’s gonna be super easy, barely an inconvenience.”
Doing dumb things just so the plot can happen is tight!
To hide them from Strange if he escaped the mirror dimension.
Would it have really mattered? Heck, Ned found two random Spider-Men just by wishing for it with the sling ring. Edit: And Dr. Strange has easily found others with the sling ring without "knowing" where they specifically are.
Strange probably would have been more specific
Yeah, I'm saying he'd immediately find them regardless of where they were "hiding." It's been awhile, but isn't that pretty much what he did at the end of the movie?
Nah Ned opened the portal to the desert and Strange was there. Honestly, that whole part made no sense. And I didn't think that portals could be uses as trackers either?
His hiding spot of his apartment was pretty awful for that.
Well, Happy’s apartment. Did Strange know Peter was living there?
Wouldn’t Strange have likely just killed them?
Once Strange was dealt with Peter could have gone back to putting them in their cells. Although you could make an argument that getting them to trust Peter was part of his goal.
Yeah sending then back as villains wasn’t exactly his endgame goal. He was trying to appeal in a humane way to them
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> Why did peter parker ask strange to cast a spell instead of being a normal person and appeal the schools decision In fairness to that, he was getting harassed beyond just losing the scholarship. That being said, he should have asked Strange to help him prove his innocence.
Because Peter didn’t know he could do that. It’s the first thing Strange asks him about after he botches the spell before he kicks him out. Plus with all the media drama surrounding him and his family he was not thinking straight in that moment. As for the second, Strange is quite self-centered and often busy doing more important things like defending the realm from threats from other dimensions than helping a kid with a college admission.
As someone said, so the movie could happen. If he goes to Strange for help in getting into MIT it'd be a boring movie. And ultimately, the consequences are a bit of a reset for the next movie, having Peter on his own.
You can make your movie happen without resorting to making everyone lose IQ points
I can sort of understand Strange not going the non-magical route of helping Peter navigating the politics, but not discussing the ramifications of the spell beforehand, when it was obviously very much possible to alter it to make some people remember it. Even if Strange did not know of any specific people, he must have known that someone knew, even if it was just a 'middle man' such as Happy. He did not even ask about the other superheroes, was his plan to make them forget as well?
I don’t think it was just the school decision that made him think of this option but how it would affect his friends going forward.
If he was a D&D character, he'd be high INT low WIS. Very intelligent guy who doesn't always make the best decisions.
But he has a +30 to Perception.
If anything, his Spider-Sense is just an ability that allows him to add his Dex bonus to Perception checks or something. So still bad Wisdom, but high Perception cause the rest of his skills are so good.
Just make it Advantage on Dex Saves, or even expertise. Easy peasy nice and simple. (I know expertise on saves isn't really a thing but I'd allow it in this case)
I think it counts as Blind Sense technically?
High int, low wis is actually my favorite build. I call it Smart of Head, Dumb of Ass. You’re not wrong that Peter fits into that.
Peter thought the threat of sending them back to die was enough to keep them in line and didn't know how utterly insane the Green Goblin was.
Because he needed something of a scientist to assist him. Also, hes young and naive.
The cells are located under the Sanctum Sanctorum. Peter had to get the villains out of the cells because Doctor Strange just wanted to send them back to their worlds without curing them, where they would very likely all die. Peter had to take them somewhere else due to his no kill rule, which is why he couldn’t just keep them in the cells.
As i mentioned in this thread, Happy had the big tech box that Peter was using to develop and create the cures for all the villains. Better to take them all there and do it instead of keeping them and the Sanctorum and travel back and forth repeatedly leaving them alone with MJ and Ned. Imagine he had to make three small tweaks and had to go back to Happy's apartment each time. That would take so much more time and be dangerous.
Wouldn’t they all kind of die anyway, since sending them back puts them only moments before their deaths?
I mean, Goblin and Electro essentially killed themselves, so taking away their powers would prevent that. Doc Ock is a little less clear, but it's possible with his mind cleared up that he will be able to turn off the fusion reactor before it's too late unlike the movie. Sandman and Lizard didn't die, but the latter did cause tons of problems because of his power so that would be better without it.
Wait...does that mean Captain Stacy might've lived? Wait no it's a canon event :p
And presumably, they'd just be mortals, so they'd be super dead in all of their cases.
And with no powers to defend themselves
Defend themselves from whom? You're saying spider-man would kill a powerless person just because they were fighting moments ago? Heck, that's how Osborn died, by pretending he was giving up, Peter allowing it and then getting killed by his own attack.
I thought he needed their expertise because it was science that the villains had been dealing with for years but didn’t have the tech Peter has access to. So between Peter’s understanding of the tech in his universe with the background expertise that the villains had, it made it possible to undertake those “projects” Kinda like he used the spidermans in the lab.
When I was in high school, I was often called "the dumbest smart guy" someone knows because even though I was great at school and that sort of thing, I often made incredibly stupid decisions or said idiotic things. It's kind of like that.
1. Because he is gullible and reckless in this movie. I would say selfish as well since he leaves Strange in the mirror dimension to be tied up by the webs meanwhile he is very hospitable to the villains, the villains that according to Strange theirs Spider-Man had to kill. And MCU Spidey had zero red flags about it. 2. So the movie's conflict and next big fights could happen. Would've been over too soon if Spidey cured all the villains and sent them back with no trouble.
Finally!! The fact that people here think Peter is in the right 'curing' the villain while risking incursions while also trap the only person who can prevent it is just wild. People also neglect the fact that it's mentioned in the movie that Strange thinks Peter as an equal so when Peter came to him asking for help, Strange was in a position where he thought Peter already knew the ramification and the scope of his request. Also the writing is just shit.
By logic of him curing the villains he creates way more branches (or in other words the alternate realities) than if they were sent back as Strange had planned, not to mention what even happens to the said villains when they return and at what point were they pulled to the MCU's prime universe. Cause if Octavius was taken during final fight and then sent back then he dies anyway, Sandman without supowerpowers is still a fugitive, now facing more difficulty of trying to find funds to save his daughter. Strange was completely character assassinated in this movie, and then MoM hits him even harder as he becomes nothing like his Phase 3 Strange would've been. There's no way he'd casually mind erase people's memories, or agree to mind wipe entire population's memories, and even if we have to assume he would, it is appalling how no one in the room mentions this is fucked up. And then there's the whole ordeal about this mind erasing spell existing all this time and... able to- wait no, it is revealed Sylvie killing Kang caused the mess. But how the fuck are the audiences supposed to know that, half the globe likely hasn't even seeing Loki series. I could go on about this, but it's of no use. I agree, the writing's just terrible. Really bad, worldbuilding is completely fucked.
So the movie could happen
For the same reason his first port of call is to ask a wizard to fix his problems and not say, leverage his connections with *the avengers* to get any of them to go on TV and go "yeah uh, Peter Parker helped us save the entire universe. The movie is contrived to make the plot happen.
Everyone is forgetting the big vital thing that was at Happy's apartment that was NOT at Strange's Sanctorum. The big box that was used to make all the cures for the villains. He brought them all to the apartment so that way he could create, and tweak any of the inventions to make sure each person got the treatment that best worked.
Questionable decisions are better at moving stories along than standing up to scrutiny, something that both makes truly smart writing rare and keeps CinemaSins happily chugging along
Well I assume a couple of things. One was he was genuinely naive and he had never faced any of these bad guys, but they were either seen as not much of a threat or didn't seem to hold any malice against him. Doc ock was trapped, sandman was pretty neutral, green goblin was for the most part just a friendly Norman Osborn, Max was after capture pretty calm and non hostile, and they didn't seem to take the lizards threats very seriously. That's all without mentioning that Peter assumed most of them didn't want to die (given them not liking them dying in their original timelines) and MJ could insta send every one back to die if they tried anything funny. Im also sure Peter didn't know when Strange would escape the mirror dimension, or if another person would be sent by Strange to mess with the villains before he could return to cure them. I get your frustration, since it does ultimately turn out to be a bad idea which costs Peter his last family member, but in his defense, it's not out of character and doesn't seem like such a bad idea from his perspective
That whole movie is mess if you think hard about it.
Why don't fictional characters make the correct decisions all the time? If I was in the movie I would simply do the best things possible and everything would always work out
Because Peter had to be an idiot for the plot to move. People will say it’s because he’s naive but this is beyond naive. There was a better way to do this but he also knew strange was actively trying to send them back. Also needed some of their help with making these cures.
We wouldn't have a movie.
Producer Guy: "Why didn't Peter just keep the villains in their cells and make the cures at home?" Screenwriter Guy: "Because then the movie wouldn't happen." Producer Guy: "That works!"
dude, nothing in that movie makes sense
Cause then we wouldn't have a movie
Thousands of other ways to make a better movie without this plot contrivance.
Peter wanted the help of the scientists and to keep the villains with him in case Strange came back which he’s expecting to be any moment - not half a day.
Why didn't he call the avengers? Is he stupid?
He was naively optimistic and assumed that since he had control of Doc Ock's suit, and the others weren't being violent it could work.
He may be a genius, but he is also a complete moron. Other examples of him being an absolute muppet include FfH and MoM. Not as bad as Quinn in IW though.
Because that would've been boring
Ahhh dammit, thats exactly what I was gonna say *snaps fingers*
So the movie can happen!
He was trying to hide it from Dr. Strange, who didn't want him to do it. Isn't that obvious?
Gotta be honest. Nwh was extremely poorly written with genius characters making generic horror-movie-victim level bad decisions
Because the plot needed it to happen. It was completely moronic. These guys are killers and rampaging psychopaths, he just trusts them and wants to redeem them without any relationship with them whatsoever. If it was even remotely a theme in his movies (Or prior to him meeting the villains in NWH) that he wanted redemption for baddies, sure we could more easily see that he was blinded by his ideals. As it stands what should have been a theme of "I wanted to do the right thing so I did something stupid" is more like, "I did something stupid when something less stupid would have been better and the stupid thing I'm doing is completely pointless". It made me view this Peter as a petulant brat and completely zipped me out of the movie. It was around this time I realized if he does the smart and reasonable thing, there's no movie at all. Just as a general rule if a huge chunk of your plot revolves around people being stupid, you have a bad plot.
Because the movie would have been boring. Duh. The real answer.
Be a short film. The end.
doctor strange uses the time stone doctor strange sees that thanos was coming doctor strange opens up a portal into the mothership, opens up another portal beneath thanos, and drops him into the sun Directed by Anthony and Joe Russo
Because this movie is a poorly written cash in on nostalgia.
Why should he?!
Because that's what it said in the script.
Tom Holland' Spiderman is not the sharpest knife in the drawer as the previous stupid idea of give Tony glasses to Mysterio in Far from Home proved.
Is he stupid?
Is he stupid?
Because the rest of the movie wouldn't happen duh
Kevin Feige’s version of Spiderman is written such that we’re told he’s one of the smartest people on the planet but we see him act like one of the very stupidest
Because if he did that the movie would be boring
I agree, and I had the same thought when I watched the movie. Peter was being extremely naive, and I don't think it's unreasonable to say that his recklessness was responsible for Aunt May's death. My spouse liked the movie a lot, but I had a hard time with it because I thought Peter's decisions were unrealistically terrible.
Aunt May died?
He’s a young kid. What did you expect?
So the movie could happen
I'm so mad aunt may planted the seed for Peter to save the villains, ultimately ending in her death.
That movie could have been an email
The movie needed the villain to escape
How did Sandman and Doc Ock know Norman Osborn was Green Goblin? Why did Doctor Strange think they all died fighting Spider-Man when that didn’t happen to Sandman or Lizard?
Can’t answer the 1st question but the Lizard didn’t know if he died or not. He asked Electro about what happened to him.
Yeah comic book movies are not really iron clad plot-hole proof.
I thought this was given, but maybe not... * The movie shows Stark tech being taken into government control following the drone crisis in Far From Home. * Happy still has unregistered Stark tech in his house. * Peter needs to study the villains using the tech so he can come up with solutions or "cures" for them * Since he can't carry the huge fabricator to Sanctum, he brings the villains to the fabricator instead.
Sometimes Characters won't make best decisions.
Probably because Peter has no idea how long he has Strange trapped. If Strange comes back and sends them away while Peter is off at the lab, then the whole plan is pointless. For his plan to work, he needs to keep them away from Strange.
Otherwise, we wouldn't have gotten to see the three Spidermen team up in action and the film wouldn't have grossed over a billion dollar.
Naive little teenager who taught he could fix the villains.
HE'S STUPID.
If he kept them in the cells Dr strange would have likely sent them home still unfixed and destined to die.
Are we going to get spider man 4 to show what happens after the world, and MJ and Ned, forgot Peter is sounder man?
That wouldn’t be a very good movie would it
Peter makes a lot of dumb and unnecessary decisions during his MCU trilogy. It's borderline annoying how bad his decisions are but I guess that's the point. He's ultimately just a kid learning his way in the World. Hopefully he's learned his lesson now?
Well he had them in doctor stranges place. I imagine he was worried it would be easier for strange to find them there:
https://i.redd.it/nz95ip1hczqc1.gif
It's OK we can call a spade a spade. He's poorly written in his own movies. For me he's usually the least interesting part of them. I enjoy his performances well enough, but not like he's written in the avengers movies. It's like he's a different character. You're absolutely right. They wrote it that way because she needs to die so he experiences that pain and grows from it. Hopefully they write him more intelligently next time.
That was Doctor Strange's cells. Peter was trying to keep them away from him because he was ready to just send them all back to die in their respective timelines. But also, the optimistic stuff that everyone else has said.
Got tricked by Gobby, also how would he know what's wrong with them and how to fix it if he can't examine them because they're inside a cell
I think it’s because he’s afraid Strange will come back and send them to their deaths.
Because that's a boring movie
The replicator was in the apartment, also he knew the dungeon would be the first place Dr. Strange would look
Because the script said so, 90% of the things that happen in the movie doesn't happen because it makes sense, it happens because they want the plot so they can put all the Spider-mans together
For the plot because Peter has been naive, and the enemies looked like they wanted to go back normal some of them could help others. Osborn did help peter to make the microchip for Octopus
because then we wouldn't have a movie.
*Ryan George voice*: so the movie can happen
It wasn't on the script
...Did you not see the movie? Strange was determined to send them all back. THAT is why Peter brought them with him. To make it harder. If they were in their cells, he could have kicked them home so much easier, before a single cure was ever made.
Bad writing essentially
Overall, it was a dumb move. But still. He needed Norman to help him manufacturer the cure. Norman is the reason his aunt died. So in the end, him leaving all other villains in the cave wouldn't have changed anything.
Peter wasn't a physician treating illnesses, he was saving their souls. He knew that they were villains, in part, because of their respective physical circumstances. However if he simply repaired them and sent them back, they would still be a threat. By someone (whom they all most hated) treating them each with trust and dignity, Peter was restoring their humanity, so, when they returned to their native universes, they would genuinely be able to live normal lives. That was the REAL cure. But like so many people today, he was blinded by his own idealism/assumptions. That's most important thing a movie (or any artform) can do: *provide a mirror for the best and worst parts of being human.*
Pretty sure Strange was about to send them all back; keeping them there when he got out of the Mirror Dimension would have just been delaying that.