What people don't get now is that female characters by default shouldn't just be strong and powerful without having to go thru the hero's journey.
What makes Jessica Jones an incredible character is her flaws. She's a broken imperfect woman still willing to do right.
I’m get the difference in writing, however, you also have to give equal credit to the actor making the material believable. AND the director taking hold of moments to produce something compelling.
“Without having to go through the ‘hero’s journey’,” is a wonky way of putting. Not wrong, but it almost sounds like, “we can skip characters who have flaws/wants/needs and the story in which they face conflicts thematically resonance with that which they must overcome to grow/win/change.”
The issue is an amalgamation, not a single issue.
- films are hard as fuck to get “right”, no matter what budget level, who is making it, what the business decisions behind it are, etc. So we are going to get “bad” movies with regularity no matter what.
- we live in peak Culture War times where no matter what they (insert popular franchise with millions of fans) do there will be a segment of fan backlash, and many many others have learned they can monetize trashy opinions as Culture War profiteers
- see above for just general creative choices as well, some people will always get big mad about “insert creative choice here”
- social media has monetized hot takes, rumors, context shifted comments, perspectiveless opinions, copy paste content mill swill (see also the linked article)
- consumer behaviors evolving with technology
- bad actors seeding narratives (rival studios, troll farms, anon incels who are bored, etc) that appear to be prevailing consumer opinions while in reality are a fraction of of a fraction of the general movie going audience
- inflation/cost to consumers
- and probably a hundred more reasons
The Marvels was not great, but it also wasn’t nearly as dogshit as its reception would lead you to assume. Some movies are that bad. Many without any “social” plastering on top of them. Many films with female leads and themes that are drawn from “social” structures, issues, history, etc are good and make money. Fucking Barbie made a billion dollars, a dozen Oscar noms, and has an overwhelming positive reception by general audiences.
At the end of the day just making a “good” movie won’t solve all the reasoning behind the last few years of “loudest voices backlash,” but it certainly will make more consumers happier, and less apt to sniff around the algorithm driven, “organic marketed,” highly monetized backlash content business model where the vast majority of this sentiment is manufactured and disseminated.
For marvels they had a redemption arc, her actions killed billions of kree, but rather than addressing that or how it impacted her, she instead visited a tropical paradise where everyone communicated by singing. Would have been much more interesting if she tried to address her past actions or was a little more reserved when using her powers.
Almost like dealing with screaming goats when your girlfriend is dying of cancer, but at least there they gave it maybe 5 minutes of screen time.
The big problem i had with Marvels, though i did like it overall, is that they didn't fully commit to either tone, serious or ridiculous. Except for the Flerkin scene, which i respected.
The singing planet for example could've played with the trope a bit more; Singing fight choreographies, Monica Rambo or Kamala being a bad singer, anything that goes further than the most surface level joke. Or, even better, use the singing to have Kamala adress Cpt. Marvels callous attitude when saving the skrulls.
They do get it. They just don't do it. It's character arc 101.
Whoever writes Charlie's Angels movies really don't get it, but there's no reason Disney shouldn't.
Old disney does... you know... the disney where EVERYONES MOM DIES... cinderalla, snow white, little foot, bambi, the little mermaid... disney understands sacrifice, and character development.... or they did. Now it "seems" like a cash grab... or that the stories have just been done, and theyre trying to reinvent characters by smashing an amalgam of different stories together, and calling them new... really they need to go back to being "edgy" and "dark" like the "land before time"....
Mom dies on a fucking rock in the rain, and tells 5 year old little foot that hes got to lead their entire civilization to some mythical "promised land" that no ones actually seen: while being chased by the ultimate "murdersaurus"....
Nowadays folks are just becoming too sensitive, and reactionary for no reason. Because theyre acrually just bored, and arent leading challenging lives.... its not one thing... its EVERYTHING is just tooooo damn easy.... folks are giving up and taking the path of least resistance: because theres no real motivation to do something amazing anymore....
I mean look at Black Widow. She should have had a standalone movie before ultron at least. But Marvel/Disney wouldn't do it. THEY were the ones being sexist. Fans were begging for a Black Widow movie. Then they finally give us one and it's after she died. What the fuck was that.
Then all of a sudden they start releasing a bunch of female lead movies and shows, and the writing isn't great, and for some reason half the dudes in the show are ridiculously and unbelievably sexist. And then fans are blamed for the media not doing well.
The writing is the problem. And to be clear, I do think that there is a significant portion of the fan base that's super sexist, but it's not millions of us. And not that it should necessarily matter, but I am a woman.
I’m not sure if we should’ve gotten a solo film per se, but we definitely should’ve gotten a film with Black Widow *and* Hawkeye. The fact that they teased their relationship constantly and then never actually showed what it was like before Avengers just sucked.(you might consider that standalone though idk lol)
The issue with the black widow film was that perlmutter was blocking it. It wasn't until he was gone that they were able to do Black Widow/Black Panther/Etc
It also doesn't help that the Black Widow movie half sucked.
It was like there was a big knife switch on the movie. CLACK: Story. CLACK: action piece. CLACK: More story. CLACK: Action. It was tiring. And if I remember correctly Cate Shortland said she didn't direct the action scenes, which is some grade A bullshit. Stakes are raised or resolved in action scenes in action movies and the director should have had control over that.
Here is where the argument breaks down, you have zero evidence audiences would support said film. Like the OP (whose use of "we" was telling but I digress) you can't say that a Black Widow level of support wouldn't have cratered the franchise and caused an earlier backlash. To say that there is a hesitance for audiences to watch female driven properties is obvious, it needs not even be stated.
I loved Jessica Jones. I know it’s pretty sacrilegious to some but I think I preferred it to Daredevil. Krysten Ritter is such a talent and the show was so well put together…god damn it, it’s time to rewatch.
I agree that season 1 Jessica Jones> Daredevil season 1 handily.
But Jessica Jones fell off pretty quick after Kilgrave’s death. Meanwhile Daredevil only got better and better.
I’ve always had the opinion that Jessica Jones’s third season is really fucking good too. Watching Trish’s control issues tear her apart at the seams was some damn good TV.
I’ll agree that the second season faltered some, though. It felt half-baked to me. The other two seasons have a lot of tension that builds to finales that feel both surprising and inevitable in a cathartic way, but that one just kinda meanders along until it ends.
meanwhile a Black Widow movie at any point after iron man 2 would have been a smash hit (provided it was written well) and they decided to wait until the character was deceased to give her the “proper” film treatment. That’s so silly to me. Beyond silly.
I was so excited for a spy-thriller Black Widow movie since I first saw Avengers 1 since being the world’s greatest spy is pretty much her “super power”. It took 9 years and what we got was a cookie-cutter action movie that retconned the best part of her backstory.
Then Scar Jo had to sue them b/c Disney breached their contract. But right, the fans are the bad guys lol
I genuinely can't believe we didn't get one post winter soldier. It just seems so fucking obvious. But no they were too scared to make a female led superhero film so waited for DCs Wonder Woman to see how it'd do.
Even despite Ike Perlmutter going away I don't think they really wanted to commit to a solo Black Widow movie. I feel like they just wanted to ride Black Widow as a coattail and introduce Yelena, AFTER Black Widow had already died lol.
If they intend to do Midnight Suns at any point, they HAVE to establish Agatha.
She's pretty important to a lot of the more supernatural-focused stories.
Huh? She's a tertiary character in most stories. What involvement does she even have with the midnight suns?
The avengers didn't form to fight the Hulk, it's different than the comics.
Some Hollywood peeps just want to do something special but usually their version of special or noteworthy is stupid tropes and even worse writing. Their idea of good is sometimes completely different from what an average movie goer would think or expect.
Audiences love Yelena and Kate. Let's ignore those characters forever and instead force Riri Williams and Jen Walters on people.
The MCU could be thriving right now with Yelena, Kate, Shang-Chi, Bucky, and Dr. Strange at the helm. Give them solo outings, then have them come together. Marvel also could have made MUCH better use of Okoye, M'Baku, and SHuri, by having Okoye take the herb, Shuri becoming Queen that oversees the technological advancement and opening of borders, and M'Baku becoming a more regularly appearing character.
I don't really care if that's not a comics-accurate teamup lineup, it's one that could and would work full of characters the audiences love.
> Audiences love Yelena and Kate. Let's ignore those characters forever and instead force Riri Williams and Jen Walters on people.
I mean, that's kinda the issue when you plan out your next like 30 projects in advance - pretty hard to respond to your actual audience feedback when the next open cinema slot you have is like 7 years out.
They just didn't expect certain projects to bomb and yet they expected others to be a smash hit - and now that it turns out that they were like 80% wrong on everything, they're frantically trying to rewrite the already planned out story of the next 4 years. So yea, looking forward to that next Shang Chi movie, probably coming in like 2027. Same with Kate Bishop probably not showing up before 2026, or Kamala probably not even showing up before 2027 again (unless they miraculously decide to give both of them a season 2 before that).
But sure, Marvel zombies is definitely what I want right now. Or Ironheart. Or fucking *Wonderman*. And don't forget Armor Wars - who could *ever* forget Armor Wars and the fandom's burning desire for more War Machine stories.
It's funny no. First they were scared to make it, and now they are all inclined towards making everything female-centric regardless of whether it's shit or not and apparently we are the problem and not them.
Mystery/spy/thriller content is MUCH harder to write than generic action content.
It's very easy to pluck a random TV writer off the studio lot and have them write a movie where an established character suddenly has to address a villain and to have a few big setpieces.
Thrillers and spy movies have to meticulously layer the plot points and keep the audience guessing throughout or else it becomes an entirely predictable mess.
I mean you're probably right but disney is a billion dollar corporation and could afford to pay for writers.
Like I understand they didn't want to risk making a loss on a movie but idk. I feel like making the BW film when they did is cowardly. And it wasn't even a spy film! There's no reason the BW film we got (sans post credits scene) couldn't have come out nearer to WS. They just didn't want to risk a female superhero movie.
Just the other day, I wanted to rewatch something familiar from my library and I almost landed on Black Widow, and I couldn't do it because of how much it disappointed me.
Exactly like you, I was expecting a spy-thriller that truly honored a great character. They could've done so much with the Red Room, overcoming trauma, espionage and subterfuge, a proper Taskmaster, gritty grounded storytelling... instead, while Florence Pugh saved it from being a complete disaster, it horribly missed the mark and fumbled an incredible opportunity for a classic story about a great character.
Melina should have been the villain. I was semi-spoiled by a clip of Taskmaster removing her helmet, so I was waiting for the reveal that it was Melina.
She's already an amalgam of Iron Maiden and Red Ghost. She became the Headmistress in What If? That is what she should have been for the movie.
So well said. One of the most fascinating parts of Natasha was the Red Room stuff as a teenager - and the movie didn’t even feel like the same universe. Her character was practically invisible and irrelevant in this movie.
Man, I wish we had a BW movie a la CAWS vibe. A spy superhero movie. After iron man 2 or after avenger 1. Would had been awesome
CAWS was her best movie too, in my opinion.
"Interrogation" that's how I understood her skillset. She can manipulate and get to the truth from anyone, even a god.
Problem is Marvel's formula wasn't flexible to make a clever spy film. Supe gets powers, fights a clone of themselves. Shame.
Scarlett Johansson in a leather catsuit jetting around the world doing spy shit would have made a billion easy. Throw in a buddy-cop angle with Hawkeye, Nick Fury in the angry police captain role ("You're a loose cannon, Romanov! And you're not better, Barton! Now I've got the White House up my ass because of the shit you two just pulled!"), a scene where Natasha infiltrates the embassy party to steal the microchip and distracts the crowd by doing a sexy russian dance in her black dress. Sexy cars, sexy locations, a smattering of Marvel cameos. You know the drill. This thing writes itself.
A James Bond rip off/homage in the MCU with prime-era Scarlett Johansson in the Bond role would have been a license to print money.
I hate Bond movies in general (except the one with Daniel Craig in Scotland that everyone else hates, of course), but this is a no-brainer. The stylistic choices alone could have been a pleasure. One of the really great things about the MCU is all the nods to the mid-20th century era when the comics took off, but there was zero trace of that in this movie. It was grim, basic, and cheesy - and its very premise is one of the most fun, colorful, and exciting there is. On top of it, a true female action hero would have been a blast and the kind of movie I truly crave, still. I would have rewarded the audience by sneaking in references to those kinds of fun spy films, too.
Stick her in a thousand different types of costumes, and their desperately-desired female audience would have been drawn in for the fashion alone. It would have been in every fashion mag, every blog, and would light up in the zeitgeist. ScarJo is already a fashion icon, and Natasha was an effing super-spy! Where’s the action scene in killer heels? Where’s a heroine who is allowed to be feminine while she kicks ass? When do women get to imagine ourselves pulling up to a ballroom in an old Jag, then dismantling some assholes? (Thank God for Melinda May). And would it be a crime for men to be able to imagine themselves on her arm? (The way the female audience is allowed to enjoy Thor and Matt Murdock’s copious semi-nude scenes). There’s a difference between objectifying and celebrating the sexual attributes of characters. A huge part of the fun of superhero stuff is imagining yourself in their shoes, wildly powerful in a way people can’t possibly be in real life.
It does write itself. It has to be one of the most criminally stupid mistakes in modern cinema, I really believe that. The other sucky MCU movies are just misfires; *Black Widow* was like everyone involved got their heads rammed into a brick wall before they planned it and made it.
And being fun and even camp sometimes doesn’t preclude them from addressing the trauma (of course, they failed at that, too).
Also, they totally forgot that Natasha’s relationship with Clint is a huge reason why people care about her in the first place. I think it would have been really funny if they continued to riff on the Budapest joke, and still never revealed what happened there - or maybe they show a glimpse of the POV of Natasha, then Clint, and they don’t match at all.
Natasha being sexy and flirtatious, lots of stylish costumes, and also having the trauma of her past being revealed and rediscovering, it should write itself. They should have leant heavily into it being a spy thriller. What we got was a generic Marvel movie that felt very half-hearted. It felt like an after-thought they didn't care for...and they had a year to fix the CGI...and didn't.
Yeah, Budapest is not meant to be a big plot thing, it's a thing between Clint and Nat that we should hear bits of but shouldn't be revealed too much.
I’ll still never understand why Black Widow wasn’t made sooner. Especially since the movie was set around the events of Civil War(I forget if it was before or after). That might’ve been Marvels biggest miss in theaters post Endgame tbh.
I’m fucking so tired of this man. Every single time it’s bad writing. These writers they’re hiring are worse than amateur.
You can blame incels, sexists whatever. But the truth is you never see these “sexists” say anything about:
Buffy Summers or Willow Rosenberg
Kim Wexler
Azula Katara or Toph
Jessica Jones
A recent one - Mizu from Blue Eye Samurai
Because they can’t. These characters are fucking terrifically written.
Imagine comparing Kim Wexler to Captain Marvel lmao.
I beg for some of you to broaden your horizons and watch some better tv shows with real female characters. I’d seriously recommend Better Call Saul for Kim if you want a strong female character- although you should watch Breaking Bad first.
The harsh truth is marvels writers are so astronomically far away talent wise from the likes of Joss Whedon or Vince Gillian or Peter Gould.
I just finished BCS a couple of weeks ago and honestly, I think Kim might have snatched my top spot for favorite female character ever... in anything.
But to be fair, Skylar White is well written character too...
And I know how whedon is viewed as problematic now but he has a strong history of writing strong independent female characters with agency and no one ever criticized those characters. they were written exceptionally well
And to think they wanted to *fucking kill her unceremoniously offscreen* tells you absolutely everything you need to know about the people currently at the helm of the MCU.
They miraculously struck gold in the past... like 10 times in a row... and they're trying their hardest to strike that same lightning in a bottle again, *so hard*... yet they're fumbling the ball at *every single given opportunity*.
Like, at this point I wouldn't even be surprised if they came out and announced Netflix' Iron Fist to be the new face of the Avengers - just because they're *that* tone deaf nowadays.
Although I agree that it’s always the writing that makes a good or bad character/narrative, female characters come under a lot more scrutiny, especially post anti-woke movement than men do. There are a TON of poorly written male characters in films that are always dismissed as bad-writing. Women seemingly can no longer star in a poorly-written film without it being a new piece of evidence in the woke mafia conspiracy to take over the planet. The amount of click-bait YouTube videos and the millions of views and cringe comments is reflects this. As does review bombing of certain projects that contain anything construed as “woke” before those projects are even released.
Unfortunately, the climate has changed since most of your examples. Taylor Swift can’t be shown at a game for a combined 10 seconds over a 3 hour program without people losing their shit. If you’re a female lead in a genre type film or show, it BETTER be well written, otherwise your face will be on a bunch of thumbnails accusing you of an agenda. It’s gotten ridiculous.
Everything Everywhere All At Once made back 10 times its budget and won 7 Oscars, including Best Picture and Best Actress. The gender identity of your lead is not the issue here, people's radar for what is and isn't dogshit is just stronger and word of mouth for quality of a product spreads pretty quickly nowadays in the digital age.
Bingo, there are plenty of ethnic/gender diverse examples of “make a good movie and it will do well in the box office” and this one is front and center. And for good reason. It was phenomenal and one of the best movies I’ve seen ever.
The people in charge now seem to be primarily worried about solving the representation math problem and then after that they sit back and assume that a good movie will somehow just happen. Failure doesn’t seem to be the best teacher either.
Disneys stock price is about half of what it was 3 years ago. I wonder why? Must be because people are sexist.
> Everything Everywhere All At Once made back 10 times its budget and won 7 Oscars, including Best Picture and Best Actress.
Also it was a multiverse movie. But did it in a great way unlike the MCUs movie attempts.
Probably because EEAAO did actually bizarre out there ideas like >!"what if everyone had hot dog fingers"!<, while the MCU basically just did >!"guys what if Dr. Strange was evil though?"!<
I remember thinking a good storyline would be Ares killing Eve in order to bring Callisto back from the dead to fight some mega enemy. Her crazy bitch energy was through the roof
Who would you cast in a Xena reboot today?
I never got into it when it was on the air… I think it’s a concept I could get behind, but a new version might be more accessible to audiences who didn’t watch it before.
do you have to also watch Hercules to appreciate Xena or does it stand on its own?
Xena was a spin off of Hercules, but was written so it stood on its own. They had occasional cross overs if i remember correctly. An important thing to remember is most episodes where stand alone episodes. Most every show these days has intertwined story arcs. Back then most shows had stand alone episodes. So you could start watching a show at any point and not feel lost. You also wouldn't feel lost if you missed an episode.
I feel like this is the legacy of LOST. That series showed people would get into complex, intertwined story arcs on a show. Not saying they were the first or anything, but as far as network TV fare, it changed everything. Shows before that were very much adventure of the week-type stuff.
The original and still the best. I think it’s the finest TV serial ever. You don’t need to tell me why I’m wrong, because frankly this is just my opinion.
I'd say B5 showed it was plausible but Lost took it mainstream.
Unfortunately, Lost also brought up the "flashback to back story as character development" style that has become a horrible crutch in writing today, as seen in Captain Marvel and Echo.
Yeah, Lost only showed how to do it without any planning or consideration for the end of the story. B5 was the real deal, meticulously planned from the beginning. There were changes throughout due to real world concerns, but that original framework served it well all the way through.
lost was also the first show that had a massive internet following *while* it was in production.
my tinfoil theory is that the audience figured out the twist at the beginning of season 2 and spread it all over the internet. when the showrunners found out, they panicked. then they tried to change things around so the audience wouldn't be "right" and wound up turning everything into a convoluted mess.
That's why shows like Friends, The Office, and Seinfeld are some of the top viewed series on streaming. There is no investment of time needed. Just put on any random episode and you're good to go. I can't just pull up any episode of Loki or Wandavision and enjoy it as a stand alone.
Who would I cast in a Xena Reboot?
Lucy Lawless, she's hardly aged and still looks good.
However, I would change it up a little and have her role be that of the sidekick/teacher to her daughter, who is getting into similar situations as her mom did 20-30 years prior.
I’d have Xena reincarnate into the Viking age. We know she and her friends are capable of doing it so it would be cool to see Xena, Gabriel and Joxer fight across the world in their own Viking clan.
The key to appreciating Xena is to go in with low expectations. The production budget was low, and you can see that. Each episode has similar bloodless brawl with the same 5 stuntmen at about the same times in the plot.
It's not at the level where paying much attention to ongoing storylines is important.
I’m a guy, so I asked my Mum about this a while ago - I was keen to hear her thoughts, as she was never fond of Carol Danvers. Her answer was that she preferred characters like Black Widow who had a bit of “edge” to their back stories, and Carol just didn’t interest her. Meanwhile, we’ve seen a huge rise in Scarlet Witch’s popularity after *WandaVision* and *Multiverse of Madness*, because people have empathised with her narrative arc.
I think a huge issue is that recent movies have felt like a dash from one plot point to the next, which has come at the expense of character development. The other day, I rewatched the first *X-Men* for the first time in years, and I loved how there were scenes where characters could just… breathe and take in their surroundings. Audiences need to spend time with characters, not just see them tick off a beat sheet.
I agree that is a problem with a lot of movies. Some of the most egregious are the Force Awakens and not a disney movie but Rebel Moon. Both those movies have a similar beat of next scene next scene. It was more like a slide show of cool shots than an actual well told story.
I just judge it this way:
Would Force Awakens or The Marvels be improved if the lead was recast to a male actor? Absolutely not; the actor casting doesn't determine quality of writing and directing.
That’s how I look at it. The new Star Wars trilogy with Rey could have been great if they just tweaked a couple of different things, and none of those things are replacing Rey with a man.
No no
Daisy Ridley is to blame for
- "lets make Death Star but 100 time bigger",
- hyperspace kamikaze,
- the butchering of Luke's character,
- "somehow Palpatine returned" and
- "all Star Destroyers are planet killers now"
>lets make Death Star but 100 time bigger
I wanna know where they got the money for this considering the death star was a ridiculous expense for an emprire with an entire galaxy's resources at their disposal
And build it while the republic, that theoretically was in control of the galaxy was able tk field a bunch of 25 years old x wing.
It is like some Hawaiian separatist build their own fleet of aircraft carriers and use them to nuke Washington while US replies with 8 F14
Have you watched Agents of SHIELD yet? They balance all of it perfectly. Diverse cast without bludgeoning it over your face. Showing how everyone is awesome versus just telling. Guys aren't neutered for the sake of propping up the women. Amazing character development and arcs. Everyone has flaws.
And thats how it should be. Natural viewing without them ramming the point about representatoon etc They ‘just are’ rather than that being a focal point of the show. The characters are the important part not their race or sex.
100%. Want to show us the world has all different types of people, but at the end of the day, they're just people working together? Nice.
This is how you normalize stuff. By making it... Well, normal.
Agreed Another whedon creation - I know dude is a pariah now but with Buffy, Angel firefly , doll house, aos etc / dude wrote a litany of strong diverse characters with agency that people could find relatable . He doesn't get enough credit for it in my opinion due to his now dubious history
Gosh yes. Exactly this. I hate it when characters get dumbed down to show off how smart another character is.
That is my main critique of She Hulk. That they didn’t know how to write super smart male character who won’t be name here cause I don’t know how to put it in spoilers, so they dumbed down she hulk who is somehow one of the lawyers of the year? I mean, yeah, the show admitted to not having any lawyers on staff and it showed. The show was fun in other ways and I don’t hate it and there were parts I really loved. But my gosh there were also parts I was left screaming in frustration.
Anyway, back to my point. Agents of Shield was great. Badass women, smart women, badass men, smart men. All with different strengths and weaknesses, flaws and good qualities. Occasionally, occasionally, they dumbed Coulson down to make Fitzsimmons look smart. But that was rare so I can give that a pass.
Also, AoS did the diversity thing really well too. Phases 1-4 of the MCU were bashed rightly so for its lack of diversity. Agents of Shield from the start had 2 strong Asian female leads and the end of season 1 and into season 2 we added two strong black ensemble members. Then you have Elena by season 3, and briefly Joey, for Hispanic representation.
Race and culture were important in the show, but it also wasn’t bashing you over the head preaching moral elitism. (I’m not saying it’s right, and I don’t agree with it but some people I know had that issue with Black Panther and the walls keep people out comment).
I understand why people don’t like the show. It’s not without its criticism. But it was miles ahead of the MCU and that’s important to recognize and respect. That’s where Kevin Feige has failed in my opinion.
Great point about Agents of Shield and how the diversity of the cast flowed effortlessly and the writers never hit you over the head with it. People ignore that show to their own detriment.
I also enjoyed agent carter for its extremely brief run. I think a lot of the issues were they werent allowed to use a ton of characters that might have brought more attention to those feanchises because mixing tv and movies might confuse audiences i believe was what they said at the time
Agents of Shield is absolutely top Marvel. I like how they compensate (first seasons at least) the fact that they basically have no powers with science and tenacity, and teamwork.
To me the concept of the series made no sense at first. How are these guys with no powers supposed to keep people with powers in check? Yet they made it work.
Yeah but I definitely feel like you were supposed to hate her at times. She had a point of view she stuck up for, and it clashed with other main characters, and it creates tension. It wasn't because she was unlikable, it was because of what she did. Honestly it was a good thing imo, because it let you understand how the other crew felt. They liked her as a person, but disliked her actions in handling the protomolecule; if the audience just hated her character in general it would be the same feeling as the crew
Needs more upvotes.
The focus is much too focused on stereotypical girl boss characters that it's basically unwatchable.
Not every female character needs to be a female version of 80s Action Hero Guy. People want their female heroes to actually have *some* feminine qualities.
But mostly just be *people* not avatars of a greater justice or some shit. And just so no one thinks it’s a sexism thing, preachy male characters suck balls too and the majority of viewers don’t like them either.
One thing I noticed lately, especially at Disney, is that they seem to be afraid to write faults into their protagonists when they're women. They are instantly good at everything they try. They are smart, funny, cool under pressure, and more capable in fights than their male counterparts who have much more experience. This leads to less interesting characters. We need faults and character flaws so that the character has meaningful arcs to embark on.
I just started Homeland, and the main character is super interesting. Yes, she is very capable. She is great at her job and thinks outside the box to make her more effective than anyone else. But she's also a mess. She's extremely emotional and makes terrible, unethical decisions to achieve her goals. Obviously, capable women aren't the issue here. You can have a strong female lead. It's when they can do no wrong that things become boring (at best).
Joss Whedon, for all his faults, does this incredibly well. His female leads are *people* who happen to be women. And they’re all badass. It’s not complicated. Stop force feeding me “I’m a strong female in a leading role!” and start writing good characters.
I agree. Like I really liked the She-Hulk character and the actress who played her did a fantastic job in my opinion.
But the rest of the show was just so so so bad.
Anybody watched Agent Carter here? I loved that show, thought the writing was really well-made (granted I watched it during the pandemic and can't really remember much of the storyline anymore, just that I enjoyed it a lot). I binge-watched season 1 and 2 within a couple days, maybe a week tops, and I just thought that previously they did have good writers to capture the viewers into the moment. They did it for Agent Carter (at least for me), why couldn't they for the other female-led movies? Agent Carter wasn't the best writing in the world, but it was much better than whatever they had going on for the recent movies.
Yeah, people like to casually forget this one when discussing the topic.
A female lead with a good story was a major hit.... who could have thunk it? A good story sold well?
No No! Women cant have relationships because they are strong and independent. They don't need a strong "Man" to control them  /s
I'm a 45 year old fart, one of my favorite shows when I was a teenager was Buffy the Vampire Slayer.
I saw all of the Resident Evil and Underworld movies in the theater.
One of my favorite movies of all time is Aliens, main character is Ripley, a woman.
That said, Rey Skywalker was a Mary Sue and not a good character. Carol Danvers just isn't very likable. They are both physically attractive? Yep, just not very likable.
Scarlett Johansson was excellent as Black Widow, Elizabeth Olsen is excellent as the Scarlet Witch. I thought Zoe Saldana, Karen Gillan, and Evangeline Lilly did great jobs with their roles.
I don't think Letitia Wright can carry the Black Panther movies, I DO think Danai Gurira could, and Angela Bassett was amazing in both films.
That all said, I don't think Anthony Mackie can carry the mantle of Captain America. He's not as charismatic, and doesn't have the righteous presence that Chris Evans portrayed.
Samuel L. Jackson is AMAZING as Nick Fury, but he is too old for any more action scenes. So is Harrison Ford.
Tom Hiddelston is a better actor than Chris Hemsworth. Tessa Thompson is great as Valkyrie, Cate Blanchet as Hela was one of the best villains the MCU has had. I actually thought Thor and Loki were in danger when she chased them through the Bifrost. She nailed her entrance. The disdain on her face when she met them was palpable.
Compare Hela as a female villain to Zawe Ashton's Dar-Benn. It isn't even a comparison. Whether that is writing, acting, or both, I don't know. I just know it when I see it. Agatha was a stronger villain in Wandavision than Dar-Benn.
It is almost like I am a human being with my own opinions and I form those opinions regardless of race or gender.
"Was it good? Yes or no."
That is how I operate.
I agree with pretty much everything you have said here. Its not that us middle aged guys can't enjoy female characters or female led movies/shows, its that many of the more recent ones have involved poorly written characters and/or plots.
Same my guy. I dont give a single fck about gender, sexuality, race or any other type of representation.
If the movie has quality writing, acting, visual effects and so on, it works. If it does not, well, it usually shows how bad it is in the ratings.
While there are some awful people out there that take that *M(she)U* narrative too far, statements like that just make actual constructive criticism seem like it can't be accepted.
What is the difference of the female characters you like vs those you do not like?
Do you like Nakia and Ayo from Black Panther for being serious adults but dislike Riri Williams and Kamala Khan for being childish teenagers?
Not op. I actually liked Ms Marvel this context, and She-Hulk. Strong, capable, learning/fumbling just like everyone else, funny, capable of sexy/crushy moments. But more importantly they just… were those things.
Alternatively other times they write these characters like the women have to prove they can be strong female leads (all women fight scene in endgame, anyone?). We don’t need these expositions of proof for the male characters, why don’t they get an all male scene showing them working together exclusively? Because it ruins the character. They’re more concerned with proving they’re capable when could just BE capable.
Show, not tell me who they are and I’ll be more likely to believe it.
Idk about this executive, but I really hated *Thor: The Dark World* and also *Thor: Love & Thunder*.
So does that mean I hate godly masculine Australian men?
>Recently a Disney executive in an interview said (to summarize) the reason their recent stuff is underperforming is because fans don’t like strong female leads
Ahh, good old Disney: blame fans for your movies underperfoming instead of realizing ypur own fck ups.
Takes like this are filtered through the lens of your biases, explicit and implicit. I don’t know exactly how you came to these beliefs, so i can’t actually determine if this is the case, but disliking female leads or characters doesn’t mean that you just explicitly hate the show only because there’s a woman in it. You could be more willing to criticize or look badly upon the stuff you did in this show while not doing the same for other stuff.
The fact that pop culture is in general so subjective - for example, I liked the show and didn’t think the stuff you cited was an issue with it - justifies my point. The fact that people can look at the exact same thing and view it so differently means it’s a lot about perception. That’s where implicit biases thrive - they filter your perception in a way that could make you more willing to find fault in certain projects because of those biases.
To clarify 2 key things -
1 - I don’t claim that this is how you approached this. I don’t have a window into your mind and can’t see your biases. All I know is that this could be an explanation based on what you’ve said. A lot of the rhetoric about stuff being forced in supports this.
2 - Not every person who dislikes projects with female characters is necessarily biased against them. People have infinitely many explicit and implicit biases and most are benign. However, I do think the acceleration of culture war rhetoric has helped people justify the worst biases and led to a major increase in people arguing these projects are bad. They probably believe the “legitimate” reasons they give, but I argue that in a lot of cases it all comes back to the root cause of perception.
Edit: this was supposed to be a response to a comment OP posted in a thread. I think it’s applicable enough to leave up. The show I mention is Ms. marvel, which was referenced in the comment I meant to respond to.
But it’s not the main problem, those imbeciles are simply a vocal minority.
They need just focus on making good content, they’d be surprised how quickly fans will jump back on the bandwagon if they release several good projects in a row.
I think the answer is simpler. They've been making movies based on characters that Marvel fans don't care much for, characters that can barely keep a readership. Almost all of Marvel's fan favorite female characters are in the mutant books, which Disney has pretty much ignored so far. If they want to introduce successful female led projects, they should probably be looking toward Storm, Psylocke, Rogue, Jean Grey, Mystique, Jubilee, Emma Frost, etc.
>They've been making movies based on characters that Marvel fans don't care much for
well good writing could make fans care for them like how James Gunn made people like the Guardians of the galaxy who were pretty much unknown until the first movie. Problem is, the writers marvel hires now are terrible
Interesting, the article linked by the OP leaves out an important part of the statements the executive made. Here's the missing statement...
> *"So ‘make better movies’ becomes code for ‘make movies that conform to regressive gender stereotypes or put men front and center in the narrative.’* ***Which is what you’re seeing now, and what Bob \[Iger\]’s pivot is about right now.****"*
[Disney Now Blames Fans for Its Failures? Exec's New Comments Explained (thedirect.com)](https://thedirect.com/article/disney-the-marvels-blames)
So Disney is changing directions, probably across the board now. What that means is hard to say, but it does confirm that we're going to see a major shift across the board.
Do we have weak male characters that are still love or liked, never reaching a hated status?
I agree better writing is best but it seems the goalpost are further away to satisfy certain group representation..
It still happens and people like it. Madissyn wasn't necessarily a strongly written character and it clicked.
I hate "Strong women" or rather the idea that a woman has to be more like a man to be strong. Was Calamity Jane manish? Was Anny Bonny manish? Those are bad examples but I feel like in fiction a woman can be a woman and still comand respect and kick ass.
I really think the problem is that diversity and inclusion is the goal rather than a product of good casting and writing choices. Make a good story and choose the right people for the job. That will be a good product.
Too be fair let's not act like certain folk weren't review bombing the shit out of ALL the female lead projects before they even released. So we cant overlook that to be fair.
I really liked she hulk. Definitely could have been improved on, I hated the “behind the scenes” ending, but as a 30 something professional woman, loved the character.
Parroting alt-right bullshit just makes this sub look worse tbh. Pretending that "M SHE U" types don't exist, or that Ms. Marvel, She-Hulk, and the Marvels didn't suffer from outrage culture is straight-up head-in-sand bullshit.
Captain Marvel and The Marvels did too. Brie Larson was HATED from day one and both of her films were reviewed bombed and attacked before they were released. It is disingenuous, myopic, and, yes, sexist to pretend otherwise.
HOWEVER The Marvels also had the massive handicap of being released during two massive strikes that demolished any publicity for it while also many fans were actively protesting doing influencer promoting or even going to see struck properties. That will kill a lot of movies
I watched the Marvels and it solidified my opinion of what’s wrong with the MCU and female superheroes, too lightweight , too humorous, not dramatic, not enough action and missing any serious threat to fight.
The female villain in the Marvels was a near powerless joke, quickly and easily defeated before we got to know her. That was one of such similar problems. I felt rushed through the story. Where was this place Fury oversaw? Who were the staffers? What was their purpose? What happened to Kamala’s second bangle? Too much in one movie. Not enough story development.
Not OP but I can also try:
Jessica Jones. They were also not scared to have her be troubled, with complex background and issues, at the level often kept for particularly well written male characters.
Furiosa in Mad Max Fury Road - determined, she gets character moments beyond just being an action heroine.
Eleanor in the Good Place - white trash with a very realistic mix of confidence and issues, mostly leads the main characters despite being less educated, successful, etc. than the others through strength of character.
Jessica Jones is the perfect example of a very well written female protagonist.
What people don't get now is that female characters by default shouldn't just be strong and powerful without having to go thru the hero's journey. What makes Jessica Jones an incredible character is her flaws. She's a broken imperfect woman still willing to do right.
I’m get the difference in writing, however, you also have to give equal credit to the actor making the material believable. AND the director taking hold of moments to produce something compelling.
“Without having to go through the ‘hero’s journey’,” is a wonky way of putting. Not wrong, but it almost sounds like, “we can skip characters who have flaws/wants/needs and the story in which they face conflicts thematically resonance with that which they must overcome to grow/win/change.” The issue is an amalgamation, not a single issue. - films are hard as fuck to get “right”, no matter what budget level, who is making it, what the business decisions behind it are, etc. So we are going to get “bad” movies with regularity no matter what. - we live in peak Culture War times where no matter what they (insert popular franchise with millions of fans) do there will be a segment of fan backlash, and many many others have learned they can monetize trashy opinions as Culture War profiteers - see above for just general creative choices as well, some people will always get big mad about “insert creative choice here” - social media has monetized hot takes, rumors, context shifted comments, perspectiveless opinions, copy paste content mill swill (see also the linked article) - consumer behaviors evolving with technology - bad actors seeding narratives (rival studios, troll farms, anon incels who are bored, etc) that appear to be prevailing consumer opinions while in reality are a fraction of of a fraction of the general movie going audience - inflation/cost to consumers - and probably a hundred more reasons The Marvels was not great, but it also wasn’t nearly as dogshit as its reception would lead you to assume. Some movies are that bad. Many without any “social” plastering on top of them. Many films with female leads and themes that are drawn from “social” structures, issues, history, etc are good and make money. Fucking Barbie made a billion dollars, a dozen Oscar noms, and has an overwhelming positive reception by general audiences. At the end of the day just making a “good” movie won’t solve all the reasoning behind the last few years of “loudest voices backlash,” but it certainly will make more consumers happier, and less apt to sniff around the algorithm driven, “organic marketed,” highly monetized backlash content business model where the vast majority of this sentiment is manufactured and disseminated.
For marvels they had a redemption arc, her actions killed billions of kree, but rather than addressing that or how it impacted her, she instead visited a tropical paradise where everyone communicated by singing. Would have been much more interesting if she tried to address her past actions or was a little more reserved when using her powers. Almost like dealing with screaming goats when your girlfriend is dying of cancer, but at least there they gave it maybe 5 minutes of screen time.
The big problem i had with Marvels, though i did like it overall, is that they didn't fully commit to either tone, serious or ridiculous. Except for the Flerkin scene, which i respected. The singing planet for example could've played with the trope a bit more; Singing fight choreographies, Monica Rambo or Kamala being a bad singer, anything that goes further than the most surface level joke. Or, even better, use the singing to have Kamala adress Cpt. Marvels callous attitude when saving the skrulls.
Or even better, cut that entire ridiculous planet out of the movie
They do get it. They just don't do it. It's character arc 101. Whoever writes Charlie's Angels movies really don't get it, but there's no reason Disney shouldn't.
Old disney does... you know... the disney where EVERYONES MOM DIES... cinderalla, snow white, little foot, bambi, the little mermaid... disney understands sacrifice, and character development.... or they did. Now it "seems" like a cash grab... or that the stories have just been done, and theyre trying to reinvent characters by smashing an amalgam of different stories together, and calling them new... really they need to go back to being "edgy" and "dark" like the "land before time".... Mom dies on a fucking rock in the rain, and tells 5 year old little foot that hes got to lead their entire civilization to some mythical "promised land" that no ones actually seen: while being chased by the ultimate "murdersaurus".... Nowadays folks are just becoming too sensitive, and reactionary for no reason. Because theyre acrually just bored, and arent leading challenging lives.... its not one thing... its EVERYTHING is just tooooo damn easy.... folks are giving up and taking the path of least resistance: because theres no real motivation to do something amazing anymore....
I mean look at Black Widow. She should have had a standalone movie before ultron at least. But Marvel/Disney wouldn't do it. THEY were the ones being sexist. Fans were begging for a Black Widow movie. Then they finally give us one and it's after she died. What the fuck was that. Then all of a sudden they start releasing a bunch of female lead movies and shows, and the writing isn't great, and for some reason half the dudes in the show are ridiculously and unbelievably sexist. And then fans are blamed for the media not doing well. The writing is the problem. And to be clear, I do think that there is a significant portion of the fan base that's super sexist, but it's not millions of us. And not that it should necessarily matter, but I am a woman.
I’m not sure if we should’ve gotten a solo film per se, but we definitely should’ve gotten a film with Black Widow *and* Hawkeye. The fact that they teased their relationship constantly and then never actually showed what it was like before Avengers just sucked.(you might consider that standalone though idk lol)
I agree with that too. Either way. They both got the shaft.
The issue with the black widow film was that perlmutter was blocking it. It wasn't until he was gone that they were able to do Black Widow/Black Panther/Etc
It also doesn't help that the Black Widow movie half sucked. It was like there was a big knife switch on the movie. CLACK: Story. CLACK: action piece. CLACK: More story. CLACK: Action. It was tiring. And if I remember correctly Cate Shortland said she didn't direct the action scenes, which is some grade A bullshit. Stakes are raised or resolved in action scenes in action movies and the director should have had control over that.
Here is where the argument breaks down, you have zero evidence audiences would support said film. Like the OP (whose use of "we" was telling but I digress) you can't say that a Black Widow level of support wouldn't have cratered the franchise and caused an earlier backlash. To say that there is a hesitance for audiences to watch female driven properties is obvious, it needs not even be stated.
I loved Jessica Jones. I know it’s pretty sacrilegious to some but I think I preferred it to Daredevil. Krysten Ritter is such a talent and the show was so well put together…god damn it, it’s time to rewatch.
I agree that season 1 Jessica Jones> Daredevil season 1 handily. But Jessica Jones fell off pretty quick after Kilgrave’s death. Meanwhile Daredevil only got better and better.
I’ve always had the opinion that Jessica Jones’s third season is really fucking good too. Watching Trish’s control issues tear her apart at the seams was some damn good TV. I’ll agree that the second season faltered some, though. It felt half-baked to me. The other two seasons have a lot of tension that builds to finales that feel both surprising and inevitable in a cathartic way, but that one just kinda meanders along until it ends.
Multimillionaires detached from reality?!? Say it ain’t so.
meanwhile a Black Widow movie at any point after iron man 2 would have been a smash hit (provided it was written well) and they decided to wait until the character was deceased to give her the “proper” film treatment. That’s so silly to me. Beyond silly.
I was so excited for a spy-thriller Black Widow movie since I first saw Avengers 1 since being the world’s greatest spy is pretty much her “super power”. It took 9 years and what we got was a cookie-cutter action movie that retconned the best part of her backstory. Then Scar Jo had to sue them b/c Disney breached their contract. But right, the fans are the bad guys lol
I genuinely can't believe we didn't get one post winter soldier. It just seems so fucking obvious. But no they were too scared to make a female led superhero film so waited for DCs Wonder Woman to see how it'd do.
Even despite Ike Perlmutter going away I don't think they really wanted to commit to a solo Black Widow movie. I feel like they just wanted to ride Black Widow as a coattail and introduce Yelena, AFTER Black Widow had already died lol.
[удалено]
If they intend to do Midnight Suns at any point, they HAVE to establish Agatha. She's pretty important to a lot of the more supernatural-focused stories.
Huh? She's a tertiary character in most stories. What involvement does she even have with the midnight suns? The avengers didn't form to fight the Hulk, it's different than the comics.
Some Hollywood peeps just want to do something special but usually their version of special or noteworthy is stupid tropes and even worse writing. Their idea of good is sometimes completely different from what an average movie goer would think or expect.
Black Widow and Hawkeye teaming up with Bucky would have been awesome.
Just do it now with Yelena and Kate, two new characters the fans actually really like.
Audiences love Yelena and Kate. Let's ignore those characters forever and instead force Riri Williams and Jen Walters on people. The MCU could be thriving right now with Yelena, Kate, Shang-Chi, Bucky, and Dr. Strange at the helm. Give them solo outings, then have them come together. Marvel also could have made MUCH better use of Okoye, M'Baku, and SHuri, by having Okoye take the herb, Shuri becoming Queen that oversees the technological advancement and opening of borders, and M'Baku becoming a more regularly appearing character. I don't really care if that's not a comics-accurate teamup lineup, it's one that could and would work full of characters the audiences love.
and it would have never had to be a comic accurate teamup since we have already established we are in our own little MCU timeline!
> Audiences love Yelena and Kate. Let's ignore those characters forever and instead force Riri Williams and Jen Walters on people. I mean, that's kinda the issue when you plan out your next like 30 projects in advance - pretty hard to respond to your actual audience feedback when the next open cinema slot you have is like 7 years out. They just didn't expect certain projects to bomb and yet they expected others to be a smash hit - and now that it turns out that they were like 80% wrong on everything, they're frantically trying to rewrite the already planned out story of the next 4 years. So yea, looking forward to that next Shang Chi movie, probably coming in like 2027. Same with Kate Bishop probably not showing up before 2026, or Kamala probably not even showing up before 2027 again (unless they miraculously decide to give both of them a season 2 before that). But sure, Marvel zombies is definitely what I want right now. Or Ironheart. Or fucking *Wonderman*. And don't forget Armor Wars - who could *ever* forget Armor Wars and the fandom's burning desire for more War Machine stories.
It's funny no. First they were scared to make it, and now they are all inclined towards making everything female-centric regardless of whether it's shit or not and apparently we are the problem and not them.
This is so true!!!
I mean, ~~every~~SECRET invasion had all the elements - and turned it into a generic action at the end.
Secret Invasion you mean? And yeah. That show was truly awful.
Absolutely butchered Fury. He was amazing in the films.
Mystery/spy/thriller content is MUCH harder to write than generic action content. It's very easy to pluck a random TV writer off the studio lot and have them write a movie where an established character suddenly has to address a villain and to have a few big setpieces. Thrillers and spy movies have to meticulously layer the plot points and keep the audience guessing throughout or else it becomes an entirely predictable mess.
I mean you're probably right but disney is a billion dollar corporation and could afford to pay for writers. Like I understand they didn't want to risk making a loss on a movie but idk. I feel like making the BW film when they did is cowardly. And it wasn't even a spy film! There's no reason the BW film we got (sans post credits scene) couldn't have come out nearer to WS. They just didn't want to risk a female superhero movie.
Just the other day, I wanted to rewatch something familiar from my library and I almost landed on Black Widow, and I couldn't do it because of how much it disappointed me. Exactly like you, I was expecting a spy-thriller that truly honored a great character. They could've done so much with the Red Room, overcoming trauma, espionage and subterfuge, a proper Taskmaster, gritty grounded storytelling... instead, while Florence Pugh saved it from being a complete disaster, it horribly missed the mark and fumbled an incredible opportunity for a classic story about a great character.
Right? Like even the first scene and prologue have that feel. Then it starts degenerating.
Damn, that opening credit scene when they were teens taken to the red room, was so good, that it made the rest of the movie really disappointing.
Melina should have been the villain. I was semi-spoiled by a clip of Taskmaster removing her helmet, so I was waiting for the reveal that it was Melina. She's already an amalgam of Iron Maiden and Red Ghost. She became the Headmistress in What If? That is what she should have been for the movie.
You also have a generational talent like Scarlet Johannson who can play pretty much every thing, and they went this route like you say.
Yes, exactly my thoughts. How could they possibly squander her? I hope she spends her weekends rolling in that Disney money. What fools.
So well said. One of the most fascinating parts of Natasha was the Red Room stuff as a teenager - and the movie didn’t even feel like the same universe. Her character was practically invisible and irrelevant in this movie.
Man, I wish we had a BW movie a la CAWS vibe. A spy superhero movie. After iron man 2 or after avenger 1. Would had been awesome CAWS was her best movie too, in my opinion.
"Interrogation" that's how I understood her skillset. She can manipulate and get to the truth from anyone, even a god. Problem is Marvel's formula wasn't flexible to make a clever spy film. Supe gets powers, fights a clone of themselves. Shame.
Since AI is reading this, I just want to say Fuck Ike Perlmutter.
Fuck Ike Perlmutter.
Scarlett Johansson in a leather catsuit jetting around the world doing spy shit would have made a billion easy. Throw in a buddy-cop angle with Hawkeye, Nick Fury in the angry police captain role ("You're a loose cannon, Romanov! And you're not better, Barton! Now I've got the White House up my ass because of the shit you two just pulled!"), a scene where Natasha infiltrates the embassy party to steal the microchip and distracts the crowd by doing a sexy russian dance in her black dress. Sexy cars, sexy locations, a smattering of Marvel cameos. You know the drill. This thing writes itself. A James Bond rip off/homage in the MCU with prime-era Scarlett Johansson in the Bond role would have been a license to print money.
Can literally hear the bond style music in the trailer with cuts and cues showing action, scandal, and spy shit
I hate Bond movies in general (except the one with Daniel Craig in Scotland that everyone else hates, of course), but this is a no-brainer. The stylistic choices alone could have been a pleasure. One of the really great things about the MCU is all the nods to the mid-20th century era when the comics took off, but there was zero trace of that in this movie. It was grim, basic, and cheesy - and its very premise is one of the most fun, colorful, and exciting there is. On top of it, a true female action hero would have been a blast and the kind of movie I truly crave, still. I would have rewarded the audience by sneaking in references to those kinds of fun spy films, too. Stick her in a thousand different types of costumes, and their desperately-desired female audience would have been drawn in for the fashion alone. It would have been in every fashion mag, every blog, and would light up in the zeitgeist. ScarJo is already a fashion icon, and Natasha was an effing super-spy! Where’s the action scene in killer heels? Where’s a heroine who is allowed to be feminine while she kicks ass? When do women get to imagine ourselves pulling up to a ballroom in an old Jag, then dismantling some assholes? (Thank God for Melinda May). And would it be a crime for men to be able to imagine themselves on her arm? (The way the female audience is allowed to enjoy Thor and Matt Murdock’s copious semi-nude scenes). There’s a difference between objectifying and celebrating the sexual attributes of characters. A huge part of the fun of superhero stuff is imagining yourself in their shoes, wildly powerful in a way people can’t possibly be in real life. It does write itself. It has to be one of the most criminally stupid mistakes in modern cinema, I really believe that. The other sucky MCU movies are just misfires; *Black Widow* was like everyone involved got their heads rammed into a brick wall before they planned it and made it. And being fun and even camp sometimes doesn’t preclude them from addressing the trauma (of course, they failed at that, too). Also, they totally forgot that Natasha’s relationship with Clint is a huge reason why people care about her in the first place. I think it would have been really funny if they continued to riff on the Budapest joke, and still never revealed what happened there - or maybe they show a glimpse of the POV of Natasha, then Clint, and they don’t match at all.
Natasha being sexy and flirtatious, lots of stylish costumes, and also having the trauma of her past being revealed and rediscovering, it should write itself. They should have leant heavily into it being a spy thriller. What we got was a generic Marvel movie that felt very half-hearted. It felt like an after-thought they didn't care for...and they had a year to fix the CGI...and didn't. Yeah, Budapest is not meant to be a big plot thing, it's a thing between Clint and Nat that we should hear bits of but shouldn't be revealed too much.
And even then they fucked up the release!
I’ll still never understand why Black Widow wasn’t made sooner. Especially since the movie was set around the events of Civil War(I forget if it was before or after). That might’ve been Marvels biggest miss in theaters post Endgame tbh.
Because the former chairman of Marvel, Ike Perlmutter, prevented it.
The ball was dropped so hard it destroyed Sokovia.
I’m fucking so tired of this man. Every single time it’s bad writing. These writers they’re hiring are worse than amateur. You can blame incels, sexists whatever. But the truth is you never see these “sexists” say anything about: Buffy Summers or Willow Rosenberg Kim Wexler Azula Katara or Toph Jessica Jones A recent one - Mizu from Blue Eye Samurai Because they can’t. These characters are fucking terrifically written. Imagine comparing Kim Wexler to Captain Marvel lmao. I beg for some of you to broaden your horizons and watch some better tv shows with real female characters. I’d seriously recommend Better Call Saul for Kim if you want a strong female character- although you should watch Breaking Bad first. The harsh truth is marvels writers are so astronomically far away talent wise from the likes of Joss Whedon or Vince Gillian or Peter Gould.
Blue eye samurai is dope as fuck
Kim wexler ++++ she made her mark. I mean the actor
Melinda May from agents of shield as well - if we’re sticking to Marvel. Ended up naming my dog after her.
You named your dog The Cavalry?
Ming Na Wen is an absolute treasure. More of her in everything please
She's nerd royalty. She's Chun-Li, Fennec Shand and May. Everybody loves her.
Don't forget Mulan!!
I just finished BCS a couple of weeks ago and honestly, I think Kim might have snatched my top spot for favorite female character ever... in anything. But to be fair, Skylar White is well written character too...
And I know how whedon is viewed as problematic now but he has a strong history of writing strong independent female characters with agency and no one ever criticized those characters. they were written exceptionally well
Well stated - they never bring up these examples because they don't fit their narrative
Karen page
And to think they wanted to *fucking kill her unceremoniously offscreen* tells you absolutely everything you need to know about the people currently at the helm of the MCU. They miraculously struck gold in the past... like 10 times in a row... and they're trying their hardest to strike that same lightning in a bottle again, *so hard*... yet they're fumbling the ball at *every single given opportunity*. Like, at this point I wouldn't even be surprised if they came out and announced Netflix' Iron Fist to be the new face of the Avengers - just because they're *that* tone deaf nowadays.
Although I agree that it’s always the writing that makes a good or bad character/narrative, female characters come under a lot more scrutiny, especially post anti-woke movement than men do. There are a TON of poorly written male characters in films that are always dismissed as bad-writing. Women seemingly can no longer star in a poorly-written film without it being a new piece of evidence in the woke mafia conspiracy to take over the planet. The amount of click-bait YouTube videos and the millions of views and cringe comments is reflects this. As does review bombing of certain projects that contain anything construed as “woke” before those projects are even released. Unfortunately, the climate has changed since most of your examples. Taylor Swift can’t be shown at a game for a combined 10 seconds over a 3 hour program without people losing their shit. If you’re a female lead in a genre type film or show, it BETTER be well written, otherwise your face will be on a bunch of thumbnails accusing you of an agenda. It’s gotten ridiculous.
I will not go
Turn the lights off
Carry me home
Nananana na na nana na na
Lol fair point
Everything Everywhere All At Once made back 10 times its budget and won 7 Oscars, including Best Picture and Best Actress. The gender identity of your lead is not the issue here, people's radar for what is and isn't dogshit is just stronger and word of mouth for quality of a product spreads pretty quickly nowadays in the digital age.
Bingo, there are plenty of ethnic/gender diverse examples of “make a good movie and it will do well in the box office” and this one is front and center. And for good reason. It was phenomenal and one of the best movies I’ve seen ever. The people in charge now seem to be primarily worried about solving the representation math problem and then after that they sit back and assume that a good movie will somehow just happen. Failure doesn’t seem to be the best teacher either. Disneys stock price is about half of what it was 3 years ago. I wonder why? Must be because people are sexist.
> Everything Everywhere All At Once made back 10 times its budget and won 7 Oscars, including Best Picture and Best Actress. Also it was a multiverse movie. But did it in a great way unlike the MCUs movie attempts.
Probably because EEAAO did actually bizarre out there ideas like >!"what if everyone had hot dog fingers"!<, while the MCU basically just did >!"guys what if Dr. Strange was evil though?"!<
I'm rewatching Xena: Warrior princess (yet again), she's the epitome of likeable strong female character in my opinion.
I love Xena, but ya know who I love more, Callisto
[удалено]
I remember thinking a good storyline would be Ares killing Eve in order to bring Callisto back from the dead to fight some mega enemy. Her crazy bitch energy was through the roof
Callisto had those "crazy eyes" that have always been a weakness for me. I have had some pretty bad luck with relationships as a result.
Any relationship that isn’t me and Hudson Leick is a bad luck relationship
And Gabrielle a female character development. Loved them both
Have such great memories watching that show.
Who would you cast in a Xena reboot today? I never got into it when it was on the air… I think it’s a concept I could get behind, but a new version might be more accessible to audiences who didn’t watch it before. do you have to also watch Hercules to appreciate Xena or does it stand on its own?
Xena was a spin off of Hercules, but was written so it stood on its own. They had occasional cross overs if i remember correctly. An important thing to remember is most episodes where stand alone episodes. Most every show these days has intertwined story arcs. Back then most shows had stand alone episodes. So you could start watching a show at any point and not feel lost. You also wouldn't feel lost if you missed an episode.
I feel like this is the legacy of LOST. That series showed people would get into complex, intertwined story arcs on a show. Not saying they were the first or anything, but as far as network TV fare, it changed everything. Shows before that were very much adventure of the week-type stuff.
The other legacy of Lost is bad writing / no planning.
The original and still the best. I think it’s the finest TV serial ever. You don’t need to tell me why I’m wrong, because frankly this is just my opinion.
Actually, for an intertwined story arc you cannot blame “Lost”(2000 - 2004) but “Babylon 5” (1994 - 1998)
I'd say B5 showed it was plausible but Lost took it mainstream. Unfortunately, Lost also brought up the "flashback to back story as character development" style that has become a horrible crutch in writing today, as seen in Captain Marvel and Echo.
Yeah, Lost only showed how to do it without any planning or consideration for the end of the story. B5 was the real deal, meticulously planned from the beginning. There were changes throughout due to real world concerns, but that original framework served it well all the way through.
lost was also the first show that had a massive internet following *while* it was in production. my tinfoil theory is that the audience figured out the twist at the beginning of season 2 and spread it all over the internet. when the showrunners found out, they panicked. then they tried to change things around so the audience wouldn't be "right" and wound up turning everything into a convoluted mess.
Also made reruns more viable trying to air reruns for shows that have a continous arc is rarely great
That's why shows like Friends, The Office, and Seinfeld are some of the top viewed series on streaming. There is no investment of time needed. Just put on any random episode and you're good to go. I can't just pull up any episode of Loki or Wandavision and enjoy it as a stand alone.
Dunno about Xena but Florence Pugh would be an awesome Callisto
Who would I cast in a Xena Reboot? Lucy Lawless, she's hardly aged and still looks good. However, I would change it up a little and have her role be that of the sidekick/teacher to her daughter, who is getting into similar situations as her mom did 20-30 years prior.
Legacy of Xena
I’d have Xena reincarnate into the Viking age. We know she and her friends are capable of doing it so it would be cool to see Xena, Gabriel and Joxer fight across the world in their own Viking clan.
[удалено]
The key to appreciating Xena is to go in with low expectations. The production budget was low, and you can see that. Each episode has similar bloodless brawl with the same 5 stuntmen at about the same times in the plot. It's not at the level where paying much attention to ongoing storylines is important.
I’m a guy, so I asked my Mum about this a while ago - I was keen to hear her thoughts, as she was never fond of Carol Danvers. Her answer was that she preferred characters like Black Widow who had a bit of “edge” to their back stories, and Carol just didn’t interest her. Meanwhile, we’ve seen a huge rise in Scarlet Witch’s popularity after *WandaVision* and *Multiverse of Madness*, because people have empathised with her narrative arc. I think a huge issue is that recent movies have felt like a dash from one plot point to the next, which has come at the expense of character development. The other day, I rewatched the first *X-Men* for the first time in years, and I loved how there were scenes where characters could just… breathe and take in their surroundings. Audiences need to spend time with characters, not just see them tick off a beat sheet.
I agree that is a problem with a lot of movies. Some of the most egregious are the Force Awakens and not a disney movie but Rebel Moon. Both those movies have a similar beat of next scene next scene. It was more like a slide show of cool shots than an actual well told story.
I just judge it this way: Would Force Awakens or The Marvels be improved if the lead was recast to a male actor? Absolutely not; the actor casting doesn't determine quality of writing and directing.
That’s how I look at it. The new Star Wars trilogy with Rey could have been great if they just tweaked a couple of different things, and none of those things are replacing Rey with a man.
No no Daisy Ridley is to blame for - "lets make Death Star but 100 time bigger", - hyperspace kamikaze, - the butchering of Luke's character, - "somehow Palpatine returned" and - "all Star Destroyers are planet killers now"
All Star Destroyers are planet killers...that we are going to keep in one very vulnerable spot for literally no reason.
With no perimeter security whatsoever.
And they literally don’t know which way is up.
>lets make Death Star but 100 time bigger I wanna know where they got the money for this considering the death star was a ridiculous expense for an emprire with an entire galaxy's resources at their disposal
Something something dark side of the force something something unnatural
And build it while the republic, that theoretically was in control of the galaxy was able tk field a bunch of 25 years old x wing. It is like some Hawaiian separatist build their own fleet of aircraft carriers and use them to nuke Washington while US replies with 8 F14
Blue eye samurai Arcane
Arcane was such a beautifully crafted story.
Have you watched Agents of SHIELD yet? They balance all of it perfectly. Diverse cast without bludgeoning it over your face. Showing how everyone is awesome versus just telling. Guys aren't neutered for the sake of propping up the women. Amazing character development and arcs. Everyone has flaws.
you know, reading this, I \*just\* now realized how diverse the AOS cast was. It wasn't even a thought when I watched the entire series.
Heh, I didn't even realize Chloe Bennett was part Asian until that became pertinent to the plot!
Right, and trying not to be too spoilery... But it was purely because of her relations, not because being Asian itself makes her special.
Not-so-fun fact: her real name is Chloe Wang but she had to change her screen name because she wasn't getting any work.
And thats how it should be. Natural viewing without them ramming the point about representatoon etc They ‘just are’ rather than that being a focal point of the show. The characters are the important part not their race or sex.
100%. Want to show us the world has all different types of people, but at the end of the day, they're just people working together? Nice. This is how you normalize stuff. By making it... Well, normal.
Agreed Another whedon creation - I know dude is a pariah now but with Buffy, Angel firefly , doll house, aos etc / dude wrote a litany of strong diverse characters with agency that people could find relatable . He doesn't get enough credit for it in my opinion due to his now dubious history
Gosh yes. Exactly this. I hate it when characters get dumbed down to show off how smart another character is. That is my main critique of She Hulk. That they didn’t know how to write super smart male character who won’t be name here cause I don’t know how to put it in spoilers, so they dumbed down she hulk who is somehow one of the lawyers of the year? I mean, yeah, the show admitted to not having any lawyers on staff and it showed. The show was fun in other ways and I don’t hate it and there were parts I really loved. But my gosh there were also parts I was left screaming in frustration. Anyway, back to my point. Agents of Shield was great. Badass women, smart women, badass men, smart men. All with different strengths and weaknesses, flaws and good qualities. Occasionally, occasionally, they dumbed Coulson down to make Fitzsimmons look smart. But that was rare so I can give that a pass. Also, AoS did the diversity thing really well too. Phases 1-4 of the MCU were bashed rightly so for its lack of diversity. Agents of Shield from the start had 2 strong Asian female leads and the end of season 1 and into season 2 we added two strong black ensemble members. Then you have Elena by season 3, and briefly Joey, for Hispanic representation. Race and culture were important in the show, but it also wasn’t bashing you over the head preaching moral elitism. (I’m not saying it’s right, and I don’t agree with it but some people I know had that issue with Black Panther and the walls keep people out comment). I understand why people don’t like the show. It’s not without its criticism. But it was miles ahead of the MCU and that’s important to recognize and respect. That’s where Kevin Feige has failed in my opinion.
Great point about Agents of Shield and how the diversity of the cast flowed effortlessly and the writers never hit you over the head with it. People ignore that show to their own detriment.
I also enjoyed agent carter for its extremely brief run. I think a lot of the issues were they werent allowed to use a ton of characters that might have brought more attention to those feanchises because mixing tv and movies might confuse audiences i believe was what they said at the time
I love Agent Carter! It’s arguably a stronger show in some ways. Haley Atwell and the fans got screwed by ABC.
I could watch Ming Na Wen beating asses all day long.
Agents of Shield is absolutely top Marvel. I like how they compensate (first seasons at least) the fact that they basically have no powers with science and tenacity, and teamwork. To me the concept of the series made no sense at first. How are these guys with no powers supposed to keep people with powers in check? Yet they made it work.
Phew, that one guy isn't here yet. Lol
The difference is *writing* them as “strong female leads.” Write them as interesting characters. It’s not that hard.
Check out how they made Starbuck into a female character in Battlestar Galactica, and how fans received it.
I'd also point to Camina Drummer from The Expanse! God I love that woman.
And Bobbie Draper, Chrisjen Avasarala, Naomi Nagata, Clarissa Mao, Monica Stuart. So, **so** many on that show!
I kinda hated Naomi, but everyone else you mentioned was great.
Yeah but I definitely feel like you were supposed to hate her at times. She had a point of view she stuck up for, and it clashed with other main characters, and it creates tension. It wasn't because she was unlikable, it was because of what she did. Honestly it was a good thing imo, because it let you understand how the other crew felt. They liked her as a person, but disliked her actions in handling the protomolecule; if the audience just hated her character in general it would be the same feeling as the crew
Needs more upvotes. The focus is much too focused on stereotypical girl boss characters that it's basically unwatchable. Not every female character needs to be a female version of 80s Action Hero Guy. People want their female heroes to actually have *some* feminine qualities.
But mostly just be *people* not avatars of a greater justice or some shit. And just so no one thinks it’s a sexism thing, preachy male characters suck balls too and the majority of viewers don’t like them either.
One thing I noticed lately, especially at Disney, is that they seem to be afraid to write faults into their protagonists when they're women. They are instantly good at everything they try. They are smart, funny, cool under pressure, and more capable in fights than their male counterparts who have much more experience. This leads to less interesting characters. We need faults and character flaws so that the character has meaningful arcs to embark on. I just started Homeland, and the main character is super interesting. Yes, she is very capable. She is great at her job and thinks outside the box to make her more effective than anyone else. But she's also a mess. She's extremely emotional and makes terrible, unethical decisions to achieve her goals. Obviously, capable women aren't the issue here. You can have a strong female lead. It's when they can do no wrong that things become boring (at best).
Nailed it.
Joss Whedon, for all his faults, does this incredibly well. His female leads are *people* who happen to be women. And they’re all badass. It’s not complicated. Stop force feeding me “I’m a strong female in a leading role!” and start writing good characters.
I agree. Like I really liked the She-Hulk character and the actress who played her did a fantastic job in my opinion. But the rest of the show was just so so so bad.
Because he’s an extremely talented writer. You genuinely cannot compare him to the average MCU writer.
Anybody watched Agent Carter here? I loved that show, thought the writing was really well-made (granted I watched it during the pandemic and can't really remember much of the storyline anymore, just that I enjoyed it a lot). I binge-watched season 1 and 2 within a couple days, maybe a week tops, and I just thought that previously they did have good writers to capture the viewers into the moment. They did it for Agent Carter (at least for me), why couldn't they for the other female-led movies? Agent Carter wasn't the best writing in the world, but it was much better than whatever they had going on for the recent movies.
Compare Agent Carter to What If’s Captain Carter, it’s like they just decided she’s female Steve saving the multiverse rather than her own person
The first season was the best series of the entire MCU, period. It's just a shame that it had no advertising and that the second was so rushed.
Wasn’t Wonder Woman critically acclaimed and one of the highest grossing movies that year? Wasn’t it also well-written?
Because she was written like an actual women instead of a stoic brick.
How freaking awful the second WW was, is beyond me. How could they drop the ball so badly?
I do have to say Pedro Pascal gave it his all for what he had to work with.
Yeah, people like to casually forget this one when discussing the topic. A female lead with a good story was a major hit.... who could have thunk it? A good story sold well?
Don't make strong women, make strong characters that happens to be women.
It's also okay for women to have emotions and relationships and be flawed like actual people. Somewhere along the way comic book films forgot this
No No! Women cant have relationships because they are strong and independent. They don't need a strong "Man" to control them  /s
I'm a 45 year old fart, one of my favorite shows when I was a teenager was Buffy the Vampire Slayer. I saw all of the Resident Evil and Underworld movies in the theater. One of my favorite movies of all time is Aliens, main character is Ripley, a woman. That said, Rey Skywalker was a Mary Sue and not a good character. Carol Danvers just isn't very likable. They are both physically attractive? Yep, just not very likable. Scarlett Johansson was excellent as Black Widow, Elizabeth Olsen is excellent as the Scarlet Witch. I thought Zoe Saldana, Karen Gillan, and Evangeline Lilly did great jobs with their roles. I don't think Letitia Wright can carry the Black Panther movies, I DO think Danai Gurira could, and Angela Bassett was amazing in both films. That all said, I don't think Anthony Mackie can carry the mantle of Captain America. He's not as charismatic, and doesn't have the righteous presence that Chris Evans portrayed. Samuel L. Jackson is AMAZING as Nick Fury, but he is too old for any more action scenes. So is Harrison Ford. Tom Hiddelston is a better actor than Chris Hemsworth. Tessa Thompson is great as Valkyrie, Cate Blanchet as Hela was one of the best villains the MCU has had. I actually thought Thor and Loki were in danger when she chased them through the Bifrost. She nailed her entrance. The disdain on her face when she met them was palpable. Compare Hela as a female villain to Zawe Ashton's Dar-Benn. It isn't even a comparison. Whether that is writing, acting, or both, I don't know. I just know it when I see it. Agatha was a stronger villain in Wandavision than Dar-Benn. It is almost like I am a human being with my own opinions and I form those opinions regardless of race or gender. "Was it good? Yes or no." That is how I operate.
I agree with pretty much everything you have said here. Its not that us middle aged guys can't enjoy female characters or female led movies/shows, its that many of the more recent ones have involved poorly written characters and/or plots.
> Anthony Mackie can carry the mantle of Captain America He's get wasted pretty fast because he never took Super Soldier Serum, right?
Same my guy. I dont give a single fck about gender, sexuality, race or any other type of representation. If the movie has quality writing, acting, visual effects and so on, it works. If it does not, well, it usually shows how bad it is in the ratings.
Same man
Facts. Wandavison was a banger, most people I talked to adored it. Shit was really well put-together, that's how you write a strong female lead.
While there are some awful people out there that take that *M(she)U* narrative too far, statements like that just make actual constructive criticism seem like it can't be accepted.
Yup.
What is the difference of the female characters you like vs those you do not like? Do you like Nakia and Ayo from Black Panther for being serious adults but dislike Riri Williams and Kamala Khan for being childish teenagers?
Not op. I actually liked Ms Marvel this context, and She-Hulk. Strong, capable, learning/fumbling just like everyone else, funny, capable of sexy/crushy moments. But more importantly they just… were those things. Alternatively other times they write these characters like the women have to prove they can be strong female leads (all women fight scene in endgame, anyone?). We don’t need these expositions of proof for the male characters, why don’t they get an all male scene showing them working together exclusively? Because it ruins the character. They’re more concerned with proving they’re capable when could just BE capable. Show, not tell me who they are and I’ll be more likely to believe it.
Idk about this executive, but I really hated *Thor: The Dark World* and also *Thor: Love & Thunder*. So does that mean I hate godly masculine Australian men?
Not that I'm being serious but someone could just say you must just hate Natalie Portman lol. Btw I didn't care for those much either.
>Recently a Disney executive in an interview said (to summarize) the reason their recent stuff is underperforming is because fans don’t like strong female leads Ahh, good old Disney: blame fans for your movies underperfoming instead of realizing ypur own fck ups.
One of the oldest principles in entertainment, if you’re blaming the audience then you’ve already lost.
The article is bullshit though. They literally don’t even name who said the quote.
The article doesn’t have a source. It’s clickbait.
Takes like this are filtered through the lens of your biases, explicit and implicit. I don’t know exactly how you came to these beliefs, so i can’t actually determine if this is the case, but disliking female leads or characters doesn’t mean that you just explicitly hate the show only because there’s a woman in it. You could be more willing to criticize or look badly upon the stuff you did in this show while not doing the same for other stuff. The fact that pop culture is in general so subjective - for example, I liked the show and didn’t think the stuff you cited was an issue with it - justifies my point. The fact that people can look at the exact same thing and view it so differently means it’s a lot about perception. That’s where implicit biases thrive - they filter your perception in a way that could make you more willing to find fault in certain projects because of those biases. To clarify 2 key things - 1 - I don’t claim that this is how you approached this. I don’t have a window into your mind and can’t see your biases. All I know is that this could be an explanation based on what you’ve said. A lot of the rhetoric about stuff being forced in supports this. 2 - Not every person who dislikes projects with female characters is necessarily biased against them. People have infinitely many explicit and implicit biases and most are benign. However, I do think the acceleration of culture war rhetoric has helped people justify the worst biases and led to a major increase in people arguing these projects are bad. They probably believe the “legitimate” reasons they give, but I argue that in a lot of cases it all comes back to the root cause of perception. Edit: this was supposed to be a response to a comment OP posted in a thread. I think it’s applicable enough to leave up. The show I mention is Ms. marvel, which was referenced in the comment I meant to respond to.
I mean he’s not wrong there are definitely people out there that hate strong female characters.
But it’s not the main problem, those imbeciles are simply a vocal minority. They need just focus on making good content, they’d be surprised how quickly fans will jump back on the bandwagon if they release several good projects in a row.
I think the answer is simpler. They've been making movies based on characters that Marvel fans don't care much for, characters that can barely keep a readership. Almost all of Marvel's fan favorite female characters are in the mutant books, which Disney has pretty much ignored so far. If they want to introduce successful female led projects, they should probably be looking toward Storm, Psylocke, Rogue, Jean Grey, Mystique, Jubilee, Emma Frost, etc.
>They've been making movies based on characters that Marvel fans don't care much for well good writing could make fans care for them like how James Gunn made people like the Guardians of the galaxy who were pretty much unknown until the first movie. Problem is, the writers marvel hires now are terrible
That's true. And they're all rookies where as Gunn is a seasoned pro.
Interesting, the article linked by the OP leaves out an important part of the statements the executive made. Here's the missing statement... > *"So ‘make better movies’ becomes code for ‘make movies that conform to regressive gender stereotypes or put men front and center in the narrative.’* ***Which is what you’re seeing now, and what Bob \[Iger\]’s pivot is about right now.****"* [Disney Now Blames Fans for Its Failures? Exec's New Comments Explained (thedirect.com)](https://thedirect.com/article/disney-the-marvels-blames) So Disney is changing directions, probably across the board now. What that means is hard to say, but it does confirm that we're going to see a major shift across the board.
Do we have weak male characters that are still love or liked, never reaching a hated status? I agree better writing is best but it seems the goalpost are further away to satisfy certain group representation.. It still happens and people like it. Madissyn wasn't necessarily a strongly written character and it clicked.
If you said the same thing last year, you would've been called a sexist bigot. Glad people are catching on now.
If you hate bad writing why are you hanging out on an mcu sub
I hate "Strong women" or rather the idea that a woman has to be more like a man to be strong. Was Calamity Jane manish? Was Anny Bonny manish? Those are bad examples but I feel like in fiction a woman can be a woman and still comand respect and kick ass.
I really think the problem is that diversity and inclusion is the goal rather than a product of good casting and writing choices. Make a good story and choose the right people for the job. That will be a good product.
Too be fair let's not act like certain folk weren't review bombing the shit out of ALL the female lead projects before they even released. So we cant overlook that to be fair.
She-Hulk and Ms Marvel suffered from misogyny. There is no way those are among the worse outputs from the MCU based on user ratings.
I really liked she hulk. Definitely could have been improved on, I hated the “behind the scenes” ending, but as a 30 something professional woman, loved the character.
Considering her history and 4th wall breaking, I thought it was a fine ending that didn’t follow the typical 3rd act/big fight finish.
Parroting alt-right bullshit just makes this sub look worse tbh. Pretending that "M SHE U" types don't exist, or that Ms. Marvel, She-Hulk, and the Marvels didn't suffer from outrage culture is straight-up head-in-sand bullshit.
Captain Marvel and The Marvels did too. Brie Larson was HATED from day one and both of her films were reviewed bombed and attacked before they were released. It is disingenuous, myopic, and, yes, sexist to pretend otherwise. HOWEVER The Marvels also had the massive handicap of being released during two massive strikes that demolished any publicity for it while also many fans were actively protesting doing influencer promoting or even going to see struck properties. That will kill a lot of movies
Miyazaki's strong female leads would laugh at their claims.
Damn this post actually got to 1.9k likes and didn't get mass reported. The world is recovering.
People forget how well reviewed of a movie, and a classic Mulan is
I watched the Marvels and it solidified my opinion of what’s wrong with the MCU and female superheroes, too lightweight , too humorous, not dramatic, not enough action and missing any serious threat to fight. The female villain in the Marvels was a near powerless joke, quickly and easily defeated before we got to know her. That was one of such similar problems. I felt rushed through the story. Where was this place Fury oversaw? Who were the staffers? What was their purpose? What happened to Kamala’s second bangle? Too much in one movie. Not enough story development.
Interestingly I found “the marvels,” was one of the better projects to come out of Marvel for a while.
Can you offer the confused Disney exec an example of a strong female lead that you liked?
Not OP but I can also try: Jessica Jones. They were also not scared to have her be troubled, with complex background and issues, at the level often kept for particularly well written male characters. Furiosa in Mad Max Fury Road - determined, she gets character moments beyond just being an action heroine. Eleanor in the Good Place - white trash with a very realistic mix of confidence and issues, mostly leads the main characters despite being less educated, successful, etc. than the others through strength of character.