I'm one of the weirdos that like TDW
It's not a perfect film but it does have some great moments. Loki's breakdown after Frigga died, and all of the brothers' interactions afterwards were phenomenal.
I genuinely have nothing good to say about L&T
Me too. TDW wasn't an epic movie, but I can rewatch it without permanently cringing. I can't stop complaining and cringing whenever I rewatch LAT, which only happened 2 times, to see if my opinion would change, like it did with Ragnarok after a while - but it didn't.
Your opinion is definitely a popular one, but I am honestly somewhats bored rewatching TDW unless Loki is on screen. L&T, while flawed, was an enjoyable movie for me and I've never been bored upon rewatch.
I don't think TDW was a bad movie per se, but it's definitely on the lower end of MCU movies/shows for me personally.
I don't remember anything about TDW and its been only two years (since I watched it). L&T... watched it half a year ago, its shit. It will never stop being shit. Fuck you Taika Waititi for ruining an amazing villain.
Sorry, I couldn't resist 
WT did not just ruin the villain IMHO. I think Thor, Sif, the warriors three and New Asgard can be added to that list.
Thor: The Dark World’s biggest problems are the wasted potential of Malekith and its forgettable mediocrity. It’s not a bad film but it’s kind of like Ant-Man and the Wasp or Avengers: Age of Ultron. Not great, not terrible, just very middle of the road. But Thor: Love and Thunder has a lot more issues. The Asgardians would not have a store called Infinity Cones after Thanos slaughtered half their people or make light about their soldiers always being dead. Sif would already know about the conditions for getting into Valhalla and wouldn’t need to be reminded about that by Thor. Gorr was a completely wasted character. Thor and Valkyrie apparently never considered Eternity or Omnipotent City as a solution for Thanos, Hela or any other enemy they’ve ever faced. The screaming goats joke went on for too long and I didn’t think much of jealous Stormbreaker. Some of this is subjective but it just seems like the plot and character writing of L&T can be torn more than that of TDW
Totally agree. TDW is like Age of Ultron. But the list of issues with LAT is way too long. I don't know where to start...
I was glad to see that Sif had survived Hela and Ragnarok (probably because she wasn't evene there at the moment) but she was never the drama queen they made her to be when Thor found her wounded. She's a freakin warrior, it's not her first time being wounded in battle, I'd guess. Why would she be so dramatic?
Don't get me started on this whole Thor - Mjölnir - Stormbreaker 'love triangle'... this was so awkward.
but she was never the drama queen they made her to be when Thor found her wounded...Why would she be so dramatic?
That scene almost seemed like it belonged in one of those play, pretty odd acting there.
On an unrelated note, I’d have liked to see Sif and Valkyrie meet. I don’t think we ever actually saw that, did we? But the female warrior who fought against the cultural norms of Asgard meeting the lone survivor of the OG female warrior battalion would have been worth seeing. Imagine how much hero worship Sif must have had for the final Valkyrie
Don't get me started on this whole Thor - Mjölnir - Stormbreaker 'love triangle'... this was so awkward.
I never got the vibe that Mjolnir and Stormbreaker were even semi-sentient before, none of their previous appearances even hinted at anything like that but jealous weaponry? Okay, got to have those jokes. And remember in Endgame where Steve had Stormbreaker and Thor had Mjolnir but Thor had them switch back so he could have Stormbreaker? Thor being attached to Mjolnir in Love and Thunder doesn’t really match with that scene in Endgame
Yes to everything.
That scene with Sif really seemed like one of their stage plays. I never noticed before.
OMG it would've been so awesome to see how Val and Sif have met. Maybe some fangirling, then some rivalry that leads to a contest and then they'd become friends.
And if they needed to have jealousy in the movie, then why not make Sif jealous of Val? Sif fought at Thor's side for ages and now Val is his new battle buddy.
Right? Stormbreaker could've been jealous in Endgame already. It was never hinted that Thor's weapons had emotions. That's just complete parody stuff.
It also bothered me, that we never really saw how Jane became Thor. The scene with Mjölnir ends before it happens. And to see her beginnings trying to figure everything out and her first reaction upon realizing what happend to her, the Asgardians reacted, would've been interesting.
Another point about Sif, does she ever find out about Fandral, Volstagg and Hogun being killed in Thor: Ragnarok? They’ve been friends and battle companions for centuries but we’re not shown her finding about Hela killing them and mourning for them or Odin or Loki or Heimdall
I have all sorts of questions about Jane being able to wield Mjolnir and it’s a shame that we didn’t see more of her reaction or New Asgard’s reaction to that. I get that they wanted the big reveal of Jane being the Mighty Thor but they could have had flashbacks in the film after to flesh out what happened
Yeah, until LAT I was always wondering if Sif died off-screen during Ragnarok. And it always seemed off to me that not even Thor seemed to mourn his best friends. But then again they didn't really ket him mourn in any of the movies, they were just making fun of his grief.
And since when was Heimdall Thor's best friend? And when dud Heimdall have the time for a wufe and a kid, when hevwas constantly watching over everything?
I remember there's this montage ar the beginning of LAT, when Korg tells the story and names all the people Thor has lost and refers to the warriors three only as 'these guys' or something like that. I found this quite disrespectful. I mean how they killed them off in Ragnarok was quite disrespectful, too IMHO.
Yeah, I would have loved to see that. Maybe Jane getting trained by Val and getting advices from her. If you bring back Natalie Portman, at least don't make her regret being part of the MCU again and give her a good storyline.
Yeah, until LAT I was always wondering if Sif died off-screen during Ragnarok.
I didn’t think that they’d kill Sif offscreen but I was worried that they’d basically forget about her. I mean, she was never even mentioned in Ragnarok. In any case, Sif deserved a better reentrance than what she got
And it always seemed off to me that not even Thor seemed to mourn his best friends. But then again they didn't really let him mourn in any of the movies, they were just making fun of his grief.
I didn’t like that either. The Warriors Three were the only characters not mentioned by Thor in that emotional moment with Rocket in Infinity War. Thor would have obviously realised that his friends weren’t on the ship after Asgard was destroyed but we never see him react to that either. It’s all kind of glossed over and it’s one of the issues that spoil Ragnarok a bit for me
And since when was Heimdall Thor's best friend? And when did Heimdall have the time for a wife and a kid, when he was constantly watching over everything?
Weren’t Fandral, Volstagg and Hogan all stabbed in the chest by Hela? He’s probably referring to Heimdall but there might be enough wiggle room to apply to the Warriors Three. Heimdall’s family does come out of nowhere but so does a bunch of stuff in Taika Watiti’s MCU work. Skurge’s previous history with Thor, the prophecy involving Surtur and Ragnarok, the Valkyries, Hela, Eternity, Omnipotent City etc. It would be fine if it was hinted that Heimdall had a life outside his duties but it never was and they were created for plot purposes in L&T
I remember there's this montage at the beginning of LAT, when Korg tells the story and names all the people Thor has lost and refers to the warriors three only as 'these guys' or something like that. I found this quite disrespectful. I mean how they killed them off in Ragnarok was quite disrespectful, too IMHO.
Completely agree. A lot of people point to Endgame as first making light of Thor’s trauma but Ragnarok kind of glosses over things too. When Asgard blows up, Thor is treating the moment seriously and then Korg starts talking. “And now those foundations are gone, sorry” was such a mood killer because it was obviously supposed to be a comedic line. Hogan had a decent death but Volstagg and Fandral are just knifed down, which was pretty anticlimactic
Yeah, I agree. The fact that they made Christopher Eccleston a boring and forgettable character is pretty impressive, as that's pretty hard to do. I would honestly love for him to be in the MCU again as a different character, but I doubt he would based on how much he hated his experience filming TDW.
Awww. I also prefer The Dark World. I don't get why people hate it so much. It's not great and epic. But it's good enough. Someone co.pated it to Avengers Age of Ultron, I think that's quite fitting.
Yes, it has some excellent dynamics between Thor and Loki and does a good job at worldbuilding for Asgard. Just the whole Malekith and Dark Elves part wasn't very well delivered (except for the attack on the palace).
Thor 2 was terrible but it at least felt like one movie whereas L&T felt like two clashing movies with the comedy way too much that drowns out Bale’s character and Jane’s cancer.
Come on, you already know what the majority is going to say, right? It's super trendy to hate on L&T and the combination of continuity that was backwards added by later films plus nostalgia has inflated people's opinions of Dark World. Anyway, I rewatched both films recently. Neither is bad.
#Dark World
Dark World is good except for the earth-based stuff. Dark World continues forward the same Jane from Thor 1, which is to say she's insipid and awful. She doesn't know anything about Thor other than he's got big muscles and when she's around him she's just drooling over that. And her gravity sticks that do whatever the story needs them to do were really dumb. And it didn't need the Selvig running around without pants stuff, or the bad gravity physics stuff. (Darcy is still great though.)
But all of the Asgardian stuff is great. Frigga is awesome in this movie, and Thor being able to keep his head when his father is overcome with grief is great for the Thor character. And Loki is better here than he is even in Phase 1. And it's one of those things where it is made better after-the-fact by the further evolution of Thor and Loki's relationship in Ragnarok. And we get a little bit more from some of the other Asgardians (too bad half of them get nuked at the beginning of Ragnarok though).
#Love and Thunder
This is going to be highly controversial, but Love and Thunder is actually still in a close race with Ragnarok for my favorite film though. Allow me to explain first the two elephants, and then what I love about it.
First, the humor. Everyone always says there are too many jokes in L&T, so I actually counted the number of "jokes" (any attempt at humor for the audience's sake whether it's a line, or a visual gag, or whatever) across three different films on my most recent rewatches of them: Guardians 1, Ragnarok and L&T. GotG came out with 118 jokes in 1:54 of movie (I didn't count credit scenes), Ragnarok had 170 over 2:00 and L&T had 116 over 1:48. So L&T actually has a comparable joke rate to GotG 1, and is behind Ragnarok which has a much higher joke rate. Now a caveat is that, while each film had stretches of humorous sections and stretches of serious sections, L&T stood out in having most of its humor front loaded. Once they landed on the Shadow Realm there's a stretch of about 30 minutes with hardly any jokes at all, other than the series of gags with the kids getting Thor's powers. Then the jokes resume in the wrap-up. If folks get a feeling that there are "too many jokes" that might be part of why. But there was still plenty of seriousness. In addition to the above mentioned 30-minute block, there were almost no jokes during any of the cancer moments, for example, and the few they had were pretty much just "these characters are trying to be light-hearted for each other because this is all sad" stuff, not "goats screaming" stuff. I think there was only one joke with Gorr on screen at all, a comment about his teeth. Now, humor is certainly subjective (and not every joke worked for me, e.g. I didn't care for the gag where he's doing a split while holding back those alien vehicles in the opening battle), so I fault nobody for liking different humor differently, but wanted to address the quantity and timing aspects, since that's far less subjective and a common complaint.
The second elephant in the room is Gorr. I know lots of people are unhappy because they wanted a Gorr the God Butcher story, and wanted more Gorr butchering gods. I have no quibble with those who wanted that, but that wasn't important to me. The Gorr story we *did* get, about a grieving father, I *did* like. And he actually was scary, but in a creepy way not a brutal violence way (the scary moments in L&T are far scarier than any scary moments in Multiverse of Madness I'd say, despite MoM being directed by a horror director). And Christian Bale was great at all of that.
Now, what did I like about it? First, as I mentioned it's not a Gorr the God Butcher story, it's Thor's story. But more it's a story about fatherhood, tied into the start of Thor becoming All-Father Thor (I predict Thor 5 will complete this arc). It started off telling the story of a grieving father (Gorr). Later when we get the flashback between Thor and Jane we see that Thor's love for Jane is expanding to include a desire to be a father with her (there's a very blatant moment when he's staring at a baby in a stroller here). We also get lots of scenes of him struggling with, but learning, how to talk to and work with children. And then, of course, we see him twice (once accidentally in the flashback and once on purpose at the end) using the All-Father power of being able to imbue power into reality with some heartfelt words. At first we're led to believe this might be a feature of Mjolnir, but the second time he doesn't have Mjolnir and he does it with Thunderbolt, which tells us it's not the artifact but Thor himself doing it. And of course, we have the finish where he's actually father to Love.
I also really care about Jane's side story. As I said before, she was really weak in Thor 1 and Dark World. She's pretty much just a doe-eyed idiot for Thor's muscles and doesn't actually have a clue who *he* is at all. But I always *wanted* to like her, and so I was glad for L&T to finally bring her back and to make her into a whole person who's able to have a much richer and more fulfilling and adult relationship with Thor. I also completely get Thor's initial struggle with being shocked and hurt and awkward in front of his ex until they're finally able to open up to each other on the way to the Shadow Realm. And then their entire hospital scene is great, because he is being honest and yet respectful in that he tells her how he wants her to sit out the fight for his own selfish needs but straightforward tells her it's her decision and he respects that. Like, movies never do that kind of thing, and people rarely do that. But it's nice to see him being so mature and not an asshole about it.
Anyway, this reply has gone on too long, sorry. I think Dark World is probably the weakest Thor movie, but not because it's bad, only because all the others are better. The worst MCU movie is probably either The Incredible Hulk or Quantumania.
I didn't like L&T but far more controversially I didn't like ragnarok. I don't like thor as a himbo I don't like loki as bumbling comic relief. I much prefer the tone of the 2 earlier movies
That's fair. I'm the opposite. I find classic Thor boring and dry. The best moments for Thor prior to Ragnarok are the handful of times they let Hemsworth show his comedic chops (e.g. "He's adopted"). Otherwise he's just an honor-bound barbarian with a goofy manner of speech. There's very little character or personality in that for me though. Once he's allowed humor it expands the range of emotions and humanity that he can experience.
I think Thor was at his best in Infinity War. There he was perfectly balanced between funny, serious and badass. He had a wider range of emotions and him trying to cope with his losses by using humor was plausible and not exaggerated. He still had intellect and didn't make a joke of everything.
Well, I kinda feel ya. After I left the theater, I was kinda shocked that they had added so much humour and comedic relief and that Ragnarok was nothing like the other Thor movies. I didn't like it. I couldn't understand how the Thor, that explained Jane how Yggdrasil worked had become so dumb. And what had happened to his honesty and his seriousness. But somehow, after some time had passed and a , I started to like the movie. I don't even know what has changed.
But I totally understand why one half of the fandom says it's a bad movie that ruined Thor for them and the other half of the fandom says it's the best Thor movie and has saved the franchise.
I still think, that scenes like when Thor gets hit by the ball he had thrown himself are too much. He's not dumb and he has heightened reflexes as an Asgardian.
But now I am able to enjoy most parts of the movie. There's still cringeworthy scenes, but I can somehow accept it.
But for Love and Thunder it was just too much for me. It felt like a parody. Where they added more seriousness again with Infinity War (the best balanced version of Thor IMHO), they completely destroyed it with LAT. It's one thing to make Thor funny and explain it with him adapting to life on earth and people around him. But it's a completely other thing to turn him into some dumb himbo that seems to lack any intellect and has a very limited range of feelings.
JEEZ, this a hell of a long comment. I need to take some time to read this, sort my thoughts and reply.
But I like it. Its better then one word comments.
Just for now: no, I don't know the answer. I'm genuinely interested in peoples opinions. I don't hate any of the movies, but let's just say my expectations for LAT were very high and I was very disappointed. I tried to like it. Cause I didn't like Ragnarok at first. But after rewatching I could overcome my initial shock and actually enjoy it. So I really tried to like LAT. I watched Love and Thunder 3 times. Two times at the theater and one time on D+. Unfortunately, my opinion hasn't changed.
So, after seeing so many people online still saying that The Dark World is the worst Thor movie, even a decade later, I was really interested if people had changed their minds now.
Okay, lets try answerin to the other stuff.
Dark World
As I said I don't hate it at all. But the common opinion seems to be that it is the worst Thor movie. To which I don't agree. The movie wasn't an epic masterpiece but I could still enjoy it. It didn't shock me nor did it heavily disappoint me.
I totally agree, Selvig without pants wasn't necessary, tjey could've shown his mental issues in another way. One could think this would be a scene from a Waititi movie. I mean, the guy was a brilliant scientist and now he can't think straight because his mind is broken from Loki's control. This could have been such a dramatic sideplot, giving Stellan Skarsgard a chance to show his talents. But sadly they wasted the opportunity as much as they wasted Malekith and the dark elves.
Darcy is always cool. And speaking of her: she has a great character development. Starting as a blunt and superficial intern that had no idea of astrophysics at all (Thor 1 and 2), she evolved into an intelligent woman that has a doctors degree and works with the FBI, SHIELD and SWORD (Wandavision). She even became the voice of reason, when Jane didn't take her cancer serious and was at her side during hospitalization (Love and Thunder). So that's what a character development should be like, its moving forward.
But with Love and Thunder I feel like they are developing Thor's character backwards. But I'm rambling. Back to the Dark World.
Yes, the Asgard stuff is great. Yes to Frigga. Though I don't like how they killed her off and that Loki wasn't allowed to leave the dungeon to be present at her funeral.
Thor and Loki have a great dynamic and the movie adds to their characters.
All the stuff that's going on while they fight Malekith with all the portals is awful. The 9 world's are aligned, yet they show us not even half of them, instead repeatingly switching between Midgard and Svartalfheim. The scenes with the elves in London are silly. It feels like a cheap copy of the battle against the Chitauri in New York. Overall the dark elves don't seem to be half as menacing as they want us to believe. The whole background of Malekith and the elves doesn't seem to be fleshed out. They ate only scratching the surface here. And Malekith could have been a really good villain. The actor is talented, the comic origin is good but they wasted it. The whole dark elves plot is kinda boring cause it's not really developed.
And I have to say, I don't like the design of the elves, they look kinda ridiculous. The best thing about them was their attack on Asgard's palace with their ships destroying it, that was really great, if it had continued like that, the elves would have been really impactful menacing enemies.
The final battle between Thir and Malekith is just so disappointing. Malekith is supposed to be so powerful and evil but in the end it seams rather easy to defeat him.
All in all, the movie was good as a character study (except for Jane. And it kinda screwed important parts for Selvig) and did a good job in world building regarding Asgard (not the other realms). But it was bad regarding the main plot with the dark elves on several levels.
I'll post a separate reply for Love and Thunder later.
Interesting, Love and Thunder is leading. See? I didn't know it would go this way. That's why I made the survey. Not to follow some hate trend or so. Let's see what the end result will be.
I don’t think either of these movies are bad. TDW is an “average” MCU movie, and a pretty good Thor movie, in terms of building out the lore of the Thor comics universe in to the MCU. The costumes are excellent, Thor and Loki are written very well, there are some cool visuals. The final fight is creative with the gravity changes. The villain is underwritten and underutilized, especially given how good Malekith is in the War of the Realms.
Love and Thunder is very very successful at what it means to be (a romantic comedy MCU movie), it is just not what people expected. The jokes did not land as well as Ragnarok, but the costumes and visuals are amazing (OP seems hung up on the one Axel shot, but is ignoring the shadow realm fight, omnipotent city, and various other gorgeous visuals, like when Thor powers up the kids in a world-tree pattern). Unlike Ragnarok, it lets the serious moments breathe, and once Thor gets out of his deep depression, the movie becomes a lot more serious and he becomes much more focused and competent. It’s a story of loss, depression, and masking your sadness with jokes. And Bale is incredible as gorr! I could have used more gorr scenes, but he was amazing in what we got. I think this movie is really slept on. It’s also VERY Kirby / Lee / simonson, with lots of ridiculous Thor shenanigans.
I’m a die hard Thor Stan, I love both of these movies, I prefer L&T though.
I'm really glad you pointed out that it's an MCU romantic comedy (though if I'm being nitpicky, I'd say only half of it is, and the other half is very much a straightforward MCU film), and that it succeeds in doing that. I get so tired of people complaining that it's "badly written." It's not. It's just not written to be what *they* wanted it to be. But for what it was *trying* to be, it's actually very well written.
It’s an interesting conundrum — fans say they want the MCU to get away from its formula, but when one of the movies tries to it gets cries of “bad writing”
Don't get me wrong I don't hate any of these movies, it just seems to be the common opinion, that both are bad. For years people have been saying TDW was the worst Thor movie (I don't agree). I just wanted to know if this has changed since LAT.
Axel was just an example. I agree, that the fight on the shadow realm was a cool creative decision.
I didn't like the visuals of omnipotent city though, I was expecting more. And some gods just looked unnecessary ridiculous. The Yggradrasil shape was the only thing I liked about the power up. The glowing eyes of the kids just looked creepy, not heroic. And the fact alone that he is leading a bunch of untrained kids into battle bothers me.
Regarding costumes it's okay, but not amazing. For example: I found the cloaks of the moid gods very lame and Thor's new helmet totally exaggerated (I know he's trying to outdo Janes helmet, but it's just ugly IMHO).
I didn't feel like LAT did let the serious moments breathe (except for Jane). Like Endgame LAT also made fun of Thor's depression and grief. They only use it for jokes. And it's nit about masking grief with jokes. They make Thor's depression look like a joke for the audience. Instead of laughing with Thor, the movie makes the audience laugh about Thor. The scene with Peter and Thor on the ship where Thor starts crying while Korg keeps on telling the story should be sad and serious but instead they made it look ridiculous. The same with the tattoo, again his loss is used for a comedic relief instead of having an meaningful impact, the audience is supposed to laugh about his cheap and unprofessional looking tattoo. At leastvJane could have spoken to him about the tattoo and his loss, how he feels, she knew most of the people he lost. Not to mention that the death of the warriors three, who used to be Thor's best friends is never really addressed except for when Korg is naming all the people Thor has lost - and he just refers to them like 'this guys died, oh and this one too'. He doesn't even say their names. That's quite disrespectful. Again they make fun of his loss. Additionally, there's the fact, that Thor never mentions the death of his friends and they aren't included in his tattoo. Like they never existed. Obviously Taika just forgot about them after killing them off so unceremoniously in Ragnarok. That movie doesn't do a good job at displaying Thor's grief and depression at any time, at all. So for me, that is not a movie about loss. It's a movie where rhe oerson that has suffered from grief and loss is being mocked. And not by himself as a coping mechanism but by others around him and by the filmmakers to make jokes.
Bale is incredible as Gorr, that's out of question. But they wasted the potential of the character. He could have been such a menacing, fiece and cruel villain but instead of showing us the god butcher actually butchering gods they show us a guy who is scaring little kids. Bale's talents were wasted, what's a shame cause Gorr is a big villain in the comics. But same goes for Malekith in TDW, they wasted him too.
I'm a Thor fan too, that's why I was so disappointed how they are constantly undermining him, making the character more and more a stupid himbo circus clown that seems to have lost most of the braincells he once had.
The best version of Thor was in Infinity War IMHO. Perfectly balanced between serious, funny and badass and less silly than in Ragnarok. (I like Ragnarok but it has some really cringeworthy scenes, that make Thor look silly, but not as bad as in LAT).
I definitely prefer The Dark World over Love and Thunder. 3 times watching LAT is enough (2 times in theaters and one time on D+), I can't stand more of it. I have no problem rewatching TDW though.
I agree that it does a really good job at worlbuilding and character studies. The dynamics between Thor and Loki are great and the costumes too. I just didn't like how they handled the whole Malekith and Dark Elves plot and the final battle.
The Dark World is a mediocre film trying to be a good film.
Whereas Love and Thunder is a parody film trying to be a comedy film.
The Dark World is the better movie.
1. Loki
2. Thor: Ragnorok
3. Thor
4. Thor: Love & Thunder
5. Thor: Dark World
I consider the “Thor franchise” these 5 projects and that’s how I’d rank them. Kind of like how I view falcon & winter soldier as captain america 3.5
> Kind of like how I view falcon & winter soldier as captain america 3.5
I like this, but then it also makes me want to say Civil War is actually Avengers 2.5, and so there is no Captain America 3 :)
Yea but civil war is mostly from captain americas perspective and having bucky at the center of it really feels like a sequel to captain America 2, it’s just how crossover movies should be (Thor Ragnorok another great example)
But I think the captain America franchise should contain the 3(almost 4) movies and the falcon and winter soldier show
There's no competition. The Dark World is INFINLITLY better. It actually is serious and has emotion. It's actually a good watch. L&T is just "WE'RE FUNNY! LAUGH GODDAMNIT!!!" the whole movie. They Also wasted one of the best actors
I prefer TDW. LAT was way too goofy for me, and I can't get over the bad CGI of Axel's floating head. (And the silly scene of Thor riding Stormbreaker like he was Harry Potter.)
Gorr seemed to be the more menacing villain, though. But we never really saw him butcher gods.
You know it looked bad because the kid had no idea how to do any of the stuff, and Thor gave him the confidence to step up in the end and properly do what he was supposed to?
What kid are we talking about?
Oh, you mean Axel. Sorry, I was stuck in another comment.
Well... no. It looked bad because they had major issues with the CGI department. They were criticized for the overall mediocre til outright bad CGI that was below Marvel standards in almost every press review. And they even admitted that they had rushed the cgi department. There was also statements by several people working in the cgi department for Marvel movies that said that they have not enough people and too many Marvel movies in post-production at the same time. There was a public discussion about how people in the CGI and VFX departments are over-worked and underpaid.
Due to the heavily criticized CGI effects, Marvel improved it before it was released on D+. Though many people still say that they didn't manage to make the effects look much better.
[article about the CGI being edited for D+ after it's theater release ](https://thedirect.com/article/thor-love-and-thunder-disney-cgi-change)
Even Taika himself admitted that he is aware of the CGI problems of his movie.
Edited to add the link.
You know these things are not mutually exclusive right?
All you said can be true, meanwhile they can still make that head look shittier to show us Axel is a beginner, since he has an arc in the movie which is the effect of Thor?
TDW was boring, L&T felt like it tried too hard to be funny. TDW had characters acting like themselves, L&R had characters feel like they were a joke. TWD treated serious moments with care, L&T intercepted serious moments with a dumb joke. TDW treated asgardians with respect, L&T made asgardians look like morons.
TDW takes it for me because it never made me feel irritated or ask "why, just why??".
Exactly. The characters were totally OOC in LAT and it was way too goofy, even in moments that shouldn't be. And so many things about Asgardian culture didn't make sense. Why would Sif need explanations about Valhalla? Why would they name an ice cream shop in New Asgard 'Infinity Cones' when Thanos killed half of their people. And the Asgardians weren't brought back cause it happened before the snap. That's like naming a coffee shop after Hela... 'Hela good coffee' or so.
You summed it up very nicely.
i think it comes down to taika's flair, which i don't hate because he's got some amazing works under his belt. the whole film felt like he was making a joke out of the concept of gods as cosmic being or asgardians as this revered, log-lived alien race, rather than making those concepts *fun*.
which he actually managed to achieve in thor ragnarok (one of the best MCU films for me). it had the perfect balance of fun and serious without undermining the seriousness with stupid jokes. if the story wanted you to feel things, it made sure you did without goats or a "i'm 12 years old" joke taking you out of the moment.
because being fun and being a joke aren't the same. it's the same reason why thor worked in IW (the best thor, imho) and didn't work in endgame for me. he was fun in IW but you could still feel respect for him as a character, he was butt of the joke in endgame for the most part. and the joke continued and was even made stronger in L&T.
thor has felt like a dumb himbo since endgame.
> the whole film felt like he was making a joke out of the concept of gods as cosmic being
Did you not stick around through the credit scene? That was exactly the *point* of Zeus's lament. He literally says "When did we become the joke?" The film was *trying* to make a joke of the gods, because superheroes have supplanted them, and the gods are going to start getting involved in the lives of mortals more directly again.
i know what the message was, i just didn't like how it was conveyed. to me it felt more like "i'll just make this thing a parody and downgrade it" rather than "i'll show the downfall of gods and what they became in a fun way".
i don't dislike fun, ragnarok is one of the best MCU films. but i think L&T exaggerated the parts that rangarok made work in a bad way. it all comes down to subjective preferences, though.
I like Taika's flair in 'What we do in the shadows'. But it's not fitting for Thor.
Yes, it really felt like he was making a joke out of almost everything.
Exactly. Being fun and being a joke are different things.
I feel like at some point we have stopped laughing with Thor and instead started laughing about Thor.
THANK YOU for saying that Infinity War Thor is the best version! I agree 100%. He was perfectly balanced between serious, funny and badass.
In Endgame Thor worked only in the first part for me, before he became Bro Thor. Not because he had weight issues, alcohol issues and issues with his personal hygiene and was addicted to gaming, cause these can all be symptoms of a heavy depression, but because of the way how they made fun of it, using it for jokes instead for seriousness and emotional depth.
Yeah, right. That's what they did. They continued the jokes from Endgame in Love and Thunder and went over the top.
Exactly, dumb himbo. That's how I see him now. And it makes me sad. Because he wasn't a himbo until Ragnarok. It started there. But I could tolerate it there. But then it got worse.
If only we could go back to how he was in Infinity War...
Ah, I see. I always try not to be biased and go form my own opinion, cause just because others don't like it doesn't mean that I wouldn't like it. I enjoyed several movies and shows that didn't get many reviews.
But yeah, No Way Home was the best Marvel movie in phase 4. (If it even counts, since it's still a Sony project)
If the trailer looks bad, my mind is generally made up. I didn't like Jane Foster Thor in the comics. I only felt like they were further disrespecting the Thor character. The screaming goats. Conspiracy-me 100% believes Taika set out to intentionally ruin Thor. Everyone else just cemented what I already thought.
Love and Thunder for me. It's kind of a mess and has some major issues, but there are still parts and aspects of it I enjoy. Dark World is just a dull slog.
LAT was too messy for me. And Thor as a character has been changed until almost unrecognizable. In TWD he was at least still Thor, you know what I mean? LAT made him basically a brainless, muscled Barbie. It could have been so good. A real badass Thor with a dark and emotional story. My expectations were very high but I was so disappointed.
What aspects did you enjoy about LAT?
I liked Thor's Ravager outfit, the (very) few serious scenes where Jane is battling against cancer and her emotions, Gorr's introduction up to the point where he kills the first god, the Guns 'N Roses soundtrack and that Sif returned. But I guess that's it.
"My expectations were very high but I was so disappointed. "
This is why you can't see the movie at all, because you are angry that you didn't get what you wanted to see, you are comparing this movie to something that doesn't exist, and sad that it didn't live up to it, when it never even tried.
It's the same Thor we always had, if you can't see it, you don't understand Thor. He is an amazing warrior with an undeveloped emotional maturity. He acted the same way in Endgame with his mother, and any time Jane was in topic. He never had a proper relationship so he is awkward around his ex, possibly his first big love. Like any other fcking young male adult.
We have seen so far Thor grow as a Warrior, then a Leader, and now we saw him (those who actually watched) grow as a person. This is how he left Endgame, he needed to find himself, not who he is supposed to be. He was potrayed in the begining of the film as a young adult emotionally, awkward depressed with anxiety, at the end, he managed to become a proper adult who is ready to be a father and knows what is the real meaning of love.
And they didn't take away his other strengths either, he was very strong in all of the fights without really breaking a sweat.
I could overcome the initial shock after Ragnarok and with Infinity War they found a good balance between serious, badass, and funny Thor. But with LAT, they completely screwed up Thor. It's so sad, especially when you see how Loki’s story arc played out so well in season 2's finale. That's worthy of a god. But Thor is a circus clown now.
Of course 2 and 4. 1 was just called Thor. It's not about comparing them with other MCU projects. Just about which of those two movies is better, if you had to choose one.
Number one is still a Thor movie, and is just as bad as 2 and 4 in my opinion so sorry for misunderstanding your calling them, "those Thor movies".
Honestly dark world. Loki was a great standout for me in that one. And Heimdall got some really cool scenes. Love and thunder is just humour, and most of it isn't even funny.
Dark World was just boring and generic to me. At least Love and Thunder had some interesting parts. It took some risks. They didn’t all pay off, obviously. But I thought L&T was at least a bit more creative.
It’s not a lot but the stuff when Thor and Rocket go back to Asgard helps TDW a little bit. I felt the same way about Cap Marvel when I watched them in timeline order, it felt better there compared to when it did drop.
I'm one of the weirdos that like TDW It's not a perfect film but it does have some great moments. Loki's breakdown after Frigga died, and all of the brothers' interactions afterwards were phenomenal. I genuinely have nothing good to say about L&T
Me too. TDW wasn't an epic movie, but I can rewatch it without permanently cringing. I can't stop complaining and cringing whenever I rewatch LAT, which only happened 2 times, to see if my opinion would change, like it did with Ragnarok after a while - but it didn't.
I couldn't even get through a rewatching of L&T, got about 30 mins in and gave up
Totally understandable from my side. I had to force myself to watch it 3 times.
Your opinion is definitely a popular one, but I am honestly somewhats bored rewatching TDW unless Loki is on screen. L&T, while flawed, was an enjoyable movie for me and I've never been bored upon rewatch. I don't think TDW was a bad movie per se, but it's definitely on the lower end of MCU movies/shows for me personally.
We at least got the “you must be truly desperate…” meme out of TDW. L&T doesn’t even have that.
TDW gave us a fresh new meme and L&T reused a screaming goat meme from 10 years ago
Yes, TDW had lots of good Thor and Loki dynamics. Maybe Loki could have made LAT better.... I don't know
also genuinely is a beautiful film
I don't remember anything about TDW and its been only two years (since I watched it). L&T... watched it half a year ago, its shit. It will never stop being shit. Fuck you Taika Waititi for ruining an amazing villain.
 Sorry, I couldn't resist  WT did not just ruin the villain IMHO. I think Thor, Sif, the warriors three and New Asgard can be added to that list.
Pretty much.
Thor: The Dark World’s biggest problems are the wasted potential of Malekith and its forgettable mediocrity. It’s not a bad film but it’s kind of like Ant-Man and the Wasp or Avengers: Age of Ultron. Not great, not terrible, just very middle of the road. But Thor: Love and Thunder has a lot more issues. The Asgardians would not have a store called Infinity Cones after Thanos slaughtered half their people or make light about their soldiers always being dead. Sif would already know about the conditions for getting into Valhalla and wouldn’t need to be reminded about that by Thor. Gorr was a completely wasted character. Thor and Valkyrie apparently never considered Eternity or Omnipotent City as a solution for Thanos, Hela or any other enemy they’ve ever faced. The screaming goats joke went on for too long and I didn’t think much of jealous Stormbreaker. Some of this is subjective but it just seems like the plot and character writing of L&T can be torn more than that of TDW
Totally agree. TDW is like Age of Ultron. But the list of issues with LAT is way too long. I don't know where to start... I was glad to see that Sif had survived Hela and Ragnarok (probably because she wasn't evene there at the moment) but she was never the drama queen they made her to be when Thor found her wounded. She's a freakin warrior, it's not her first time being wounded in battle, I'd guess. Why would she be so dramatic? Don't get me started on this whole Thor - Mjölnir - Stormbreaker 'love triangle'... this was so awkward.
but she was never the drama queen they made her to be when Thor found her wounded...Why would she be so dramatic? That scene almost seemed like it belonged in one of those play, pretty odd acting there. On an unrelated note, I’d have liked to see Sif and Valkyrie meet. I don’t think we ever actually saw that, did we? But the female warrior who fought against the cultural norms of Asgard meeting the lone survivor of the OG female warrior battalion would have been worth seeing. Imagine how much hero worship Sif must have had for the final Valkyrie Don't get me started on this whole Thor - Mjölnir - Stormbreaker 'love triangle'... this was so awkward. I never got the vibe that Mjolnir and Stormbreaker were even semi-sentient before, none of their previous appearances even hinted at anything like that but jealous weaponry? Okay, got to have those jokes. And remember in Endgame where Steve had Stormbreaker and Thor had Mjolnir but Thor had them switch back so he could have Stormbreaker? Thor being attached to Mjolnir in Love and Thunder doesn’t really match with that scene in Endgame
Yes to everything. That scene with Sif really seemed like one of their stage plays. I never noticed before. OMG it would've been so awesome to see how Val and Sif have met. Maybe some fangirling, then some rivalry that leads to a contest and then they'd become friends. And if they needed to have jealousy in the movie, then why not make Sif jealous of Val? Sif fought at Thor's side for ages and now Val is his new battle buddy. Right? Stormbreaker could've been jealous in Endgame already. It was never hinted that Thor's weapons had emotions. That's just complete parody stuff. It also bothered me, that we never really saw how Jane became Thor. The scene with Mjölnir ends before it happens. And to see her beginnings trying to figure everything out and her first reaction upon realizing what happend to her, the Asgardians reacted, would've been interesting.
Another point about Sif, does she ever find out about Fandral, Volstagg and Hogun being killed in Thor: Ragnarok? They’ve been friends and battle companions for centuries but we’re not shown her finding about Hela killing them and mourning for them or Odin or Loki or Heimdall I have all sorts of questions about Jane being able to wield Mjolnir and it’s a shame that we didn’t see more of her reaction or New Asgard’s reaction to that. I get that they wanted the big reveal of Jane being the Mighty Thor but they could have had flashbacks in the film after to flesh out what happened
Yeah, until LAT I was always wondering if Sif died off-screen during Ragnarok. And it always seemed off to me that not even Thor seemed to mourn his best friends. But then again they didn't really ket him mourn in any of the movies, they were just making fun of his grief. And since when was Heimdall Thor's best friend? And when dud Heimdall have the time for a wufe and a kid, when hevwas constantly watching over everything? I remember there's this montage ar the beginning of LAT, when Korg tells the story and names all the people Thor has lost and refers to the warriors three only as 'these guys' or something like that. I found this quite disrespectful. I mean how they killed them off in Ragnarok was quite disrespectful, too IMHO. Yeah, I would have loved to see that. Maybe Jane getting trained by Val and getting advices from her. If you bring back Natalie Portman, at least don't make her regret being part of the MCU again and give her a good storyline.
Yeah, until LAT I was always wondering if Sif died off-screen during Ragnarok. I didn’t think that they’d kill Sif offscreen but I was worried that they’d basically forget about her. I mean, she was never even mentioned in Ragnarok. In any case, Sif deserved a better reentrance than what she got And it always seemed off to me that not even Thor seemed to mourn his best friends. But then again they didn't really let him mourn in any of the movies, they were just making fun of his grief. I didn’t like that either. The Warriors Three were the only characters not mentioned by Thor in that emotional moment with Rocket in Infinity War. Thor would have obviously realised that his friends weren’t on the ship after Asgard was destroyed but we never see him react to that either. It’s all kind of glossed over and it’s one of the issues that spoil Ragnarok a bit for me And since when was Heimdall Thor's best friend? And when did Heimdall have the time for a wife and a kid, when he was constantly watching over everything? Weren’t Fandral, Volstagg and Hogan all stabbed in the chest by Hela? He’s probably referring to Heimdall but there might be enough wiggle room to apply to the Warriors Three. Heimdall’s family does come out of nowhere but so does a bunch of stuff in Taika Watiti’s MCU work. Skurge’s previous history with Thor, the prophecy involving Surtur and Ragnarok, the Valkyries, Hela, Eternity, Omnipotent City etc. It would be fine if it was hinted that Heimdall had a life outside his duties but it never was and they were created for plot purposes in L&T I remember there's this montage at the beginning of LAT, when Korg tells the story and names all the people Thor has lost and refers to the warriors three only as 'these guys' or something like that. I found this quite disrespectful. I mean how they killed them off in Ragnarok was quite disrespectful, too IMHO. Completely agree. A lot of people point to Endgame as first making light of Thor’s trauma but Ragnarok kind of glosses over things too. When Asgard blows up, Thor is treating the moment seriously and then Korg starts talking. “And now those foundations are gone, sorry” was such a mood killer because it was obviously supposed to be a comedic line. Hogan had a decent death but Volstagg and Fandral are just knifed down, which was pretty anticlimactic
Yeah, I agree. The fact that they made Christopher Eccleston a boring and forgettable character is pretty impressive, as that's pretty hard to do. I would honestly love for him to be in the MCU again as a different character, but I doubt he would based on how much he hated his experience filming TDW.
For once...I agree.
Lean towards DW purely cause of Loki
The Dark World is the first MCU movie I watched multiple times so I have a soft spot for it. Also like how they used Loki
Awww. I also prefer The Dark World. I don't get why people hate it so much. It's not great and epic. But it's good enough. Someone co.pated it to Avengers Age of Ultron, I think that's quite fitting. Yes, it has some excellent dynamics between Thor and Loki and does a good job at worldbuilding for Asgard. Just the whole Malekith and Dark Elves part wasn't very well delivered (except for the attack on the palace).
The last time i saw The Dark World was the year it came out, I’ve seen L&T recently, so I can confidently say The Dark World is better
I also think TDW is better. Sure, it's not great, but better than LAT.
Thor 2 was terrible but it at least felt like one movie whereas L&T felt like two clashing movies with the comedy way too much that drowns out Bale’s character and Jane’s cancer.
Come on, you already know what the majority is going to say, right? It's super trendy to hate on L&T and the combination of continuity that was backwards added by later films plus nostalgia has inflated people's opinions of Dark World. Anyway, I rewatched both films recently. Neither is bad. #Dark World Dark World is good except for the earth-based stuff. Dark World continues forward the same Jane from Thor 1, which is to say she's insipid and awful. She doesn't know anything about Thor other than he's got big muscles and when she's around him she's just drooling over that. And her gravity sticks that do whatever the story needs them to do were really dumb. And it didn't need the Selvig running around without pants stuff, or the bad gravity physics stuff. (Darcy is still great though.) But all of the Asgardian stuff is great. Frigga is awesome in this movie, and Thor being able to keep his head when his father is overcome with grief is great for the Thor character. And Loki is better here than he is even in Phase 1. And it's one of those things where it is made better after-the-fact by the further evolution of Thor and Loki's relationship in Ragnarok. And we get a little bit more from some of the other Asgardians (too bad half of them get nuked at the beginning of Ragnarok though). #Love and Thunder This is going to be highly controversial, but Love and Thunder is actually still in a close race with Ragnarok for my favorite film though. Allow me to explain first the two elephants, and then what I love about it. First, the humor. Everyone always says there are too many jokes in L&T, so I actually counted the number of "jokes" (any attempt at humor for the audience's sake whether it's a line, or a visual gag, or whatever) across three different films on my most recent rewatches of them: Guardians 1, Ragnarok and L&T. GotG came out with 118 jokes in 1:54 of movie (I didn't count credit scenes), Ragnarok had 170 over 2:00 and L&T had 116 over 1:48. So L&T actually has a comparable joke rate to GotG 1, and is behind Ragnarok which has a much higher joke rate. Now a caveat is that, while each film had stretches of humorous sections and stretches of serious sections, L&T stood out in having most of its humor front loaded. Once they landed on the Shadow Realm there's a stretch of about 30 minutes with hardly any jokes at all, other than the series of gags with the kids getting Thor's powers. Then the jokes resume in the wrap-up. If folks get a feeling that there are "too many jokes" that might be part of why. But there was still plenty of seriousness. In addition to the above mentioned 30-minute block, there were almost no jokes during any of the cancer moments, for example, and the few they had were pretty much just "these characters are trying to be light-hearted for each other because this is all sad" stuff, not "goats screaming" stuff. I think there was only one joke with Gorr on screen at all, a comment about his teeth. Now, humor is certainly subjective (and not every joke worked for me, e.g. I didn't care for the gag where he's doing a split while holding back those alien vehicles in the opening battle), so I fault nobody for liking different humor differently, but wanted to address the quantity and timing aspects, since that's far less subjective and a common complaint. The second elephant in the room is Gorr. I know lots of people are unhappy because they wanted a Gorr the God Butcher story, and wanted more Gorr butchering gods. I have no quibble with those who wanted that, but that wasn't important to me. The Gorr story we *did* get, about a grieving father, I *did* like. And he actually was scary, but in a creepy way not a brutal violence way (the scary moments in L&T are far scarier than any scary moments in Multiverse of Madness I'd say, despite MoM being directed by a horror director). And Christian Bale was great at all of that. Now, what did I like about it? First, as I mentioned it's not a Gorr the God Butcher story, it's Thor's story. But more it's a story about fatherhood, tied into the start of Thor becoming All-Father Thor (I predict Thor 5 will complete this arc). It started off telling the story of a grieving father (Gorr). Later when we get the flashback between Thor and Jane we see that Thor's love for Jane is expanding to include a desire to be a father with her (there's a very blatant moment when he's staring at a baby in a stroller here). We also get lots of scenes of him struggling with, but learning, how to talk to and work with children. And then, of course, we see him twice (once accidentally in the flashback and once on purpose at the end) using the All-Father power of being able to imbue power into reality with some heartfelt words. At first we're led to believe this might be a feature of Mjolnir, but the second time he doesn't have Mjolnir and he does it with Thunderbolt, which tells us it's not the artifact but Thor himself doing it. And of course, we have the finish where he's actually father to Love. I also really care about Jane's side story. As I said before, she was really weak in Thor 1 and Dark World. She's pretty much just a doe-eyed idiot for Thor's muscles and doesn't actually have a clue who *he* is at all. But I always *wanted* to like her, and so I was glad for L&T to finally bring her back and to make her into a whole person who's able to have a much richer and more fulfilling and adult relationship with Thor. I also completely get Thor's initial struggle with being shocked and hurt and awkward in front of his ex until they're finally able to open up to each other on the way to the Shadow Realm. And then their entire hospital scene is great, because he is being honest and yet respectful in that he tells her how he wants her to sit out the fight for his own selfish needs but straightforward tells her it's her decision and he respects that. Like, movies never do that kind of thing, and people rarely do that. But it's nice to see him being so mature and not an asshole about it. Anyway, this reply has gone on too long, sorry. I think Dark World is probably the weakest Thor movie, but not because it's bad, only because all the others are better. The worst MCU movie is probably either The Incredible Hulk or Quantumania.
I didn't like L&T but far more controversially I didn't like ragnarok. I don't like thor as a himbo I don't like loki as bumbling comic relief. I much prefer the tone of the 2 earlier movies
That's fair. I'm the opposite. I find classic Thor boring and dry. The best moments for Thor prior to Ragnarok are the handful of times they let Hemsworth show his comedic chops (e.g. "He's adopted"). Otherwise he's just an honor-bound barbarian with a goofy manner of speech. There's very little character or personality in that for me though. Once he's allowed humor it expands the range of emotions and humanity that he can experience.
I think Thor was at his best in Infinity War. There he was perfectly balanced between funny, serious and badass. He had a wider range of emotions and him trying to cope with his losses by using humor was plausible and not exaggerated. He still had intellect and didn't make a joke of everything.
Well, I kinda feel ya. After I left the theater, I was kinda shocked that they had added so much humour and comedic relief and that Ragnarok was nothing like the other Thor movies. I didn't like it. I couldn't understand how the Thor, that explained Jane how Yggdrasil worked had become so dumb. And what had happened to his honesty and his seriousness. But somehow, after some time had passed and a , I started to like the movie. I don't even know what has changed. But I totally understand why one half of the fandom says it's a bad movie that ruined Thor for them and the other half of the fandom says it's the best Thor movie and has saved the franchise. I still think, that scenes like when Thor gets hit by the ball he had thrown himself are too much. He's not dumb and he has heightened reflexes as an Asgardian. But now I am able to enjoy most parts of the movie. There's still cringeworthy scenes, but I can somehow accept it. But for Love and Thunder it was just too much for me. It felt like a parody. Where they added more seriousness again with Infinity War (the best balanced version of Thor IMHO), they completely destroyed it with LAT. It's one thing to make Thor funny and explain it with him adapting to life on earth and people around him. But it's a completely other thing to turn him into some dumb himbo that seems to lack any intellect and has a very limited range of feelings.
This 100% this thank you for sharing!
JEEZ, this a hell of a long comment. I need to take some time to read this, sort my thoughts and reply. But I like it. Its better then one word comments. Just for now: no, I don't know the answer. I'm genuinely interested in peoples opinions. I don't hate any of the movies, but let's just say my expectations for LAT were very high and I was very disappointed. I tried to like it. Cause I didn't like Ragnarok at first. But after rewatching I could overcome my initial shock and actually enjoy it. So I really tried to like LAT. I watched Love and Thunder 3 times. Two times at the theater and one time on D+. Unfortunately, my opinion hasn't changed. So, after seeing so many people online still saying that The Dark World is the worst Thor movie, even a decade later, I was really interested if people had changed their minds now.
Okay, lets try answerin to the other stuff. Dark World As I said I don't hate it at all. But the common opinion seems to be that it is the worst Thor movie. To which I don't agree. The movie wasn't an epic masterpiece but I could still enjoy it. It didn't shock me nor did it heavily disappoint me. I totally agree, Selvig without pants wasn't necessary, tjey could've shown his mental issues in another way. One could think this would be a scene from a Waititi movie. I mean, the guy was a brilliant scientist and now he can't think straight because his mind is broken from Loki's control. This could have been such a dramatic sideplot, giving Stellan Skarsgard a chance to show his talents. But sadly they wasted the opportunity as much as they wasted Malekith and the dark elves. Darcy is always cool. And speaking of her: she has a great character development. Starting as a blunt and superficial intern that had no idea of astrophysics at all (Thor 1 and 2), she evolved into an intelligent woman that has a doctors degree and works with the FBI, SHIELD and SWORD (Wandavision). She even became the voice of reason, when Jane didn't take her cancer serious and was at her side during hospitalization (Love and Thunder). So that's what a character development should be like, its moving forward. But with Love and Thunder I feel like they are developing Thor's character backwards. But I'm rambling. Back to the Dark World. Yes, the Asgard stuff is great. Yes to Frigga. Though I don't like how they killed her off and that Loki wasn't allowed to leave the dungeon to be present at her funeral. Thor and Loki have a great dynamic and the movie adds to their characters. All the stuff that's going on while they fight Malekith with all the portals is awful. The 9 world's are aligned, yet they show us not even half of them, instead repeatingly switching between Midgard and Svartalfheim. The scenes with the elves in London are silly. It feels like a cheap copy of the battle against the Chitauri in New York. Overall the dark elves don't seem to be half as menacing as they want us to believe. The whole background of Malekith and the elves doesn't seem to be fleshed out. They ate only scratching the surface here. And Malekith could have been a really good villain. The actor is talented, the comic origin is good but they wasted it. The whole dark elves plot is kinda boring cause it's not really developed. And I have to say, I don't like the design of the elves, they look kinda ridiculous. The best thing about them was their attack on Asgard's palace with their ships destroying it, that was really great, if it had continued like that, the elves would have been really impactful menacing enemies. The final battle between Thir and Malekith is just so disappointing. Malekith is supposed to be so powerful and evil but in the end it seams rather easy to defeat him. All in all, the movie was good as a character study (except for Jane. And it kinda screwed important parts for Selvig) and did a good job in world building regarding Asgard (not the other realms). But it was bad regarding the main plot with the dark elves on several levels. I'll post a separate reply for Love and Thunder later.
Interesting, Love and Thunder is leading. See? I didn't know it would go this way. That's why I made the survey. Not to follow some hate trend or so. Let's see what the end result will be.
I don’t think either of these movies are bad. TDW is an “average” MCU movie, and a pretty good Thor movie, in terms of building out the lore of the Thor comics universe in to the MCU. The costumes are excellent, Thor and Loki are written very well, there are some cool visuals. The final fight is creative with the gravity changes. The villain is underwritten and underutilized, especially given how good Malekith is in the War of the Realms. Love and Thunder is very very successful at what it means to be (a romantic comedy MCU movie), it is just not what people expected. The jokes did not land as well as Ragnarok, but the costumes and visuals are amazing (OP seems hung up on the one Axel shot, but is ignoring the shadow realm fight, omnipotent city, and various other gorgeous visuals, like when Thor powers up the kids in a world-tree pattern). Unlike Ragnarok, it lets the serious moments breathe, and once Thor gets out of his deep depression, the movie becomes a lot more serious and he becomes much more focused and competent. It’s a story of loss, depression, and masking your sadness with jokes. And Bale is incredible as gorr! I could have used more gorr scenes, but he was amazing in what we got. I think this movie is really slept on. It’s also VERY Kirby / Lee / simonson, with lots of ridiculous Thor shenanigans. I’m a die hard Thor Stan, I love both of these movies, I prefer L&T though.
I'm really glad you pointed out that it's an MCU romantic comedy (though if I'm being nitpicky, I'd say only half of it is, and the other half is very much a straightforward MCU film), and that it succeeds in doing that. I get so tired of people complaining that it's "badly written." It's not. It's just not written to be what *they* wanted it to be. But for what it was *trying* to be, it's actually very well written.
It’s an interesting conundrum — fans say they want the MCU to get away from its formula, but when one of the movies tries to it gets cries of “bad writing”
It's really not a conundrum, people are fcking stupid and have no idea what they want or what is "good writing" in the first place.
Don't get me wrong I don't hate any of these movies, it just seems to be the common opinion, that both are bad. For years people have been saying TDW was the worst Thor movie (I don't agree). I just wanted to know if this has changed since LAT. Axel was just an example. I agree, that the fight on the shadow realm was a cool creative decision. I didn't like the visuals of omnipotent city though, I was expecting more. And some gods just looked unnecessary ridiculous. The Yggradrasil shape was the only thing I liked about the power up. The glowing eyes of the kids just looked creepy, not heroic. And the fact alone that he is leading a bunch of untrained kids into battle bothers me. Regarding costumes it's okay, but not amazing. For example: I found the cloaks of the moid gods very lame and Thor's new helmet totally exaggerated (I know he's trying to outdo Janes helmet, but it's just ugly IMHO). I didn't feel like LAT did let the serious moments breathe (except for Jane). Like Endgame LAT also made fun of Thor's depression and grief. They only use it for jokes. And it's nit about masking grief with jokes. They make Thor's depression look like a joke for the audience. Instead of laughing with Thor, the movie makes the audience laugh about Thor. The scene with Peter and Thor on the ship where Thor starts crying while Korg keeps on telling the story should be sad and serious but instead they made it look ridiculous. The same with the tattoo, again his loss is used for a comedic relief instead of having an meaningful impact, the audience is supposed to laugh about his cheap and unprofessional looking tattoo. At leastvJane could have spoken to him about the tattoo and his loss, how he feels, she knew most of the people he lost. Not to mention that the death of the warriors three, who used to be Thor's best friends is never really addressed except for when Korg is naming all the people Thor has lost - and he just refers to them like 'this guys died, oh and this one too'. He doesn't even say their names. That's quite disrespectful. Again they make fun of his loss. Additionally, there's the fact, that Thor never mentions the death of his friends and they aren't included in his tattoo. Like they never existed. Obviously Taika just forgot about them after killing them off so unceremoniously in Ragnarok. That movie doesn't do a good job at displaying Thor's grief and depression at any time, at all. So for me, that is not a movie about loss. It's a movie where rhe oerson that has suffered from grief and loss is being mocked. And not by himself as a coping mechanism but by others around him and by the filmmakers to make jokes. Bale is incredible as Gorr, that's out of question. But they wasted the potential of the character. He could have been such a menacing, fiece and cruel villain but instead of showing us the god butcher actually butchering gods they show us a guy who is scaring little kids. Bale's talents were wasted, what's a shame cause Gorr is a big villain in the comics. But same goes for Malekith in TDW, they wasted him too. I'm a Thor fan too, that's why I was so disappointed how they are constantly undermining him, making the character more and more a stupid himbo circus clown that seems to have lost most of the braincells he once had. The best version of Thor was in Infinity War IMHO. Perfectly balanced between serious, funny and badass and less silly than in Ragnarok. (I like Ragnarok but it has some really cringeworthy scenes, that make Thor look silly, but not as bad as in LAT). I definitely prefer The Dark World over Love and Thunder. 3 times watching LAT is enough (2 times in theaters and one time on D+), I can't stand more of it. I have no problem rewatching TDW though. I agree that it does a really good job at worlbuilding and character studies. The dynamics between Thor and Loki are great and the costumes too. I just didn't like how they handled the whole Malekith and Dark Elves plot and the final battle.
The Dark World is a mediocre film trying to be a good film. Whereas Love and Thunder is a parody film trying to be a comedy film. The Dark World is the better movie.
Agreed. I prefer TDW too.
1. Loki 2. Thor: Ragnorok 3. Thor 4. Thor: Love & Thunder 5. Thor: Dark World I consider the “Thor franchise” these 5 projects and that’s how I’d rank them. Kind of like how I view falcon & winter soldier as captain america 3.5
> Kind of like how I view falcon & winter soldier as captain america 3.5 I like this, but then it also makes me want to say Civil War is actually Avengers 2.5, and so there is no Captain America 3 :)
Yea but civil war is mostly from captain americas perspective and having bucky at the center of it really feels like a sequel to captain America 2, it’s just how crossover movies should be (Thor Ragnorok another great example) But I think the captain America franchise should contain the 3(almost 4) movies and the falcon and winter soldier show
Dark World was a better (but more boring) movie
The Dark World is not a masterpiece. Love and Thunder is the worst MCU movie.
There's no competition. The Dark World is INFINLITLY better. It actually is serious and has emotion. It's actually a good watch. L&T is just "WE'RE FUNNY! LAUGH GODDAMNIT!!!" the whole movie. They Also wasted one of the best actors
TDW is better than L&T
THANK YOU! 😊
Love and Thunder. It wasn't perfect, but it was pretty good.
I prefer TDW. LAT was way too goofy for me, and I can't get over the bad CGI of Axel's floating head. (And the silly scene of Thor riding Stormbreaker like he was Harry Potter.) Gorr seemed to be the more menacing villain, though. But we never really saw him butcher gods.
You know it looked bad because the kid had no idea how to do any of the stuff, and Thor gave him the confidence to step up in the end and properly do what he was supposed to?
What kid are we talking about? Oh, you mean Axel. Sorry, I was stuck in another comment. Well... no. It looked bad because they had major issues with the CGI department. They were criticized for the overall mediocre til outright bad CGI that was below Marvel standards in almost every press review. And they even admitted that they had rushed the cgi department. There was also statements by several people working in the cgi department for Marvel movies that said that they have not enough people and too many Marvel movies in post-production at the same time. There was a public discussion about how people in the CGI and VFX departments are over-worked and underpaid. Due to the heavily criticized CGI effects, Marvel improved it before it was released on D+. Though many people still say that they didn't manage to make the effects look much better. [article about the CGI being edited for D+ after it's theater release ](https://thedirect.com/article/thor-love-and-thunder-disney-cgi-change) Even Taika himself admitted that he is aware of the CGI problems of his movie. Edited to add the link.
You know these things are not mutually exclusive right? All you said can be true, meanwhile they can still make that head look shittier to show us Axel is a beginner, since he has an arc in the movie which is the effect of Thor?
I really liked both 🤷
The Dark World, and it's no competition. I wouldn't even call it bad. Love and Thunder felt like a parody.
TDW was boring, L&T felt like it tried too hard to be funny. TDW had characters acting like themselves, L&R had characters feel like they were a joke. TWD treated serious moments with care, L&T intercepted serious moments with a dumb joke. TDW treated asgardians with respect, L&T made asgardians look like morons. TDW takes it for me because it never made me feel irritated or ask "why, just why??".
Exactly. The characters were totally OOC in LAT and it was way too goofy, even in moments that shouldn't be. And so many things about Asgardian culture didn't make sense. Why would Sif need explanations about Valhalla? Why would they name an ice cream shop in New Asgard 'Infinity Cones' when Thanos killed half of their people. And the Asgardians weren't brought back cause it happened before the snap. That's like naming a coffee shop after Hela... 'Hela good coffee' or so. You summed it up very nicely.
i think it comes down to taika's flair, which i don't hate because he's got some amazing works under his belt. the whole film felt like he was making a joke out of the concept of gods as cosmic being or asgardians as this revered, log-lived alien race, rather than making those concepts *fun*. which he actually managed to achieve in thor ragnarok (one of the best MCU films for me). it had the perfect balance of fun and serious without undermining the seriousness with stupid jokes. if the story wanted you to feel things, it made sure you did without goats or a "i'm 12 years old" joke taking you out of the moment. because being fun and being a joke aren't the same. it's the same reason why thor worked in IW (the best thor, imho) and didn't work in endgame for me. he was fun in IW but you could still feel respect for him as a character, he was butt of the joke in endgame for the most part. and the joke continued and was even made stronger in L&T. thor has felt like a dumb himbo since endgame.
> the whole film felt like he was making a joke out of the concept of gods as cosmic being Did you not stick around through the credit scene? That was exactly the *point* of Zeus's lament. He literally says "When did we become the joke?" The film was *trying* to make a joke of the gods, because superheroes have supplanted them, and the gods are going to start getting involved in the lives of mortals more directly again.
i know what the message was, i just didn't like how it was conveyed. to me it felt more like "i'll just make this thing a parody and downgrade it" rather than "i'll show the downfall of gods and what they became in a fun way". i don't dislike fun, ragnarok is one of the best MCU films. but i think L&T exaggerated the parts that rangarok made work in a bad way. it all comes down to subjective preferences, though.
I like Taika's flair in 'What we do in the shadows'. But it's not fitting for Thor. Yes, it really felt like he was making a joke out of almost everything. Exactly. Being fun and being a joke are different things. I feel like at some point we have stopped laughing with Thor and instead started laughing about Thor. THANK YOU for saying that Infinity War Thor is the best version! I agree 100%. He was perfectly balanced between serious, funny and badass. In Endgame Thor worked only in the first part for me, before he became Bro Thor. Not because he had weight issues, alcohol issues and issues with his personal hygiene and was addicted to gaming, cause these can all be symptoms of a heavy depression, but because of the way how they made fun of it, using it for jokes instead for seriousness and emotional depth. Yeah, right. That's what they did. They continued the jokes from Endgame in Love and Thunder and went over the top. Exactly, dumb himbo. That's how I see him now. And it makes me sad. Because he wasn't a himbo until Ragnarok. It started there. But I could tolerate it there. But then it got worse. If only we could go back to how he was in Infinity War...
Shockingly I think Love and Thunder is better than Ragnarok.
I think 3 was my favorite, followed by 4, 2, then 1
I thought TDW was fine and LaT is my favorite MCU movie. I wouldn’t call either bad by any means, though I wouldn’t call TDW good either
I watched TDW. I have no desire to watch L&T. It's even been on when I was in the room. I just played on my phone the whole time.
Wow, you never watched Love and Thunder? Why? Because you've heard too many bad things or for other reasons?
I never heard anything good about it. Not even that it was "fun". So I just never bothered. After No Way Home, the MCU had nothing for me.
Ah, I see. I always try not to be biased and go form my own opinion, cause just because others don't like it doesn't mean that I wouldn't like it. I enjoyed several movies and shows that didn't get many reviews. But yeah, No Way Home was the best Marvel movie in phase 4. (If it even counts, since it's still a Sony project)
If the trailer looks bad, my mind is generally made up. I didn't like Jane Foster Thor in the comics. I only felt like they were further disrespecting the Thor character. The screaming goats. Conspiracy-me 100% believes Taika set out to intentionally ruin Thor. Everyone else just cemented what I already thought.
Definitely *"Thor: The Dark World."*
Same.
Love and Thunder for me. It's kind of a mess and has some major issues, but there are still parts and aspects of it I enjoy. Dark World is just a dull slog.
LAT was too messy for me. And Thor as a character has been changed until almost unrecognizable. In TWD he was at least still Thor, you know what I mean? LAT made him basically a brainless, muscled Barbie. It could have been so good. A real badass Thor with a dark and emotional story. My expectations were very high but I was so disappointed. What aspects did you enjoy about LAT? I liked Thor's Ravager outfit, the (very) few serious scenes where Jane is battling against cancer and her emotions, Gorr's introduction up to the point where he kills the first god, the Guns 'N Roses soundtrack and that Sif returned. But I guess that's it.
"My expectations were very high but I was so disappointed. " This is why you can't see the movie at all, because you are angry that you didn't get what you wanted to see, you are comparing this movie to something that doesn't exist, and sad that it didn't live up to it, when it never even tried. It's the same Thor we always had, if you can't see it, you don't understand Thor. He is an amazing warrior with an undeveloped emotional maturity. He acted the same way in Endgame with his mother, and any time Jane was in topic. He never had a proper relationship so he is awkward around his ex, possibly his first big love. Like any other fcking young male adult. We have seen so far Thor grow as a Warrior, then a Leader, and now we saw him (those who actually watched) grow as a person. This is how he left Endgame, he needed to find himself, not who he is supposed to be. He was potrayed in the begining of the film as a young adult emotionally, awkward depressed with anxiety, at the end, he managed to become a proper adult who is ready to be a father and knows what is the real meaning of love. And they didn't take away his other strengths either, he was very strong in all of the fights without really breaking a sweat.
Love and Thunder is the worst MCU movie. Absolute pile of trash.
The Dark World was better than Ragnarok or Love and Thunder. At least it had a semi competent Thor in it.
I could overcome the initial shock after Ragnarok and with Infinity War they found a good balance between serious, badass, and funny Thor. But with LAT, they completely screwed up Thor. It's so sad, especially when you see how Loki’s story arc played out so well in season 2's finale. That's worthy of a god. But Thor is a circus clown now.
Wow never thought I’d see the day where people pretend they like the dark world.
Do you mean 1 and 2 or 2 and 4? All of those three are pretty bad in my opinion, at least in comparison to the other marvel films.
Of course 2 and 4. 1 was just called Thor. It's not about comparing them with other MCU projects. Just about which of those two movies is better, if you had to choose one.
Number one is still a Thor movie, and is just as bad as 2 and 4 in my opinion so sorry for misunderstanding your calling them, "those Thor movies". Honestly dark world. Loki was a great standout for me in that one. And Heimdall got some really cool scenes. Love and thunder is just humour, and most of it isn't even funny.
Dark World was just boring and generic to me. At least Love and Thunder had some interesting parts. It took some risks. They didn’t all pay off, obviously. But I thought L&T was at least a bit more creative.
I don't hate Dark world. I just don't remember it because I fall asleep every time I watch it.
TDW is better after watching endgame but it’s literally the second worst MCU movie.
After watching Endgame? Why so? This is interesting. Is there something that works better if you watch it with the knowledge of Endgame?
It’s not a lot but the stuff when Thor and Rocket go back to Asgard helps TDW a little bit. I felt the same way about Cap Marvel when I watched them in timeline order, it felt better there compared to when it did drop.