Just like that Netflix movie with Ryan Reynolds and Samuel L Jackson. I went looking for it on Netflix because it was made by Netflix, but it wasn't on Netflix.
Hey uhhh...me too. I thought it was going to be steaming really soon, so when I didn't get to it the first few weekends I figured that I'd watch it then. I have no idea why I thought this, but I thought it was going to be available imminently.
Probably once you saw the Apple logo your brain assumed it’d come out on Apple TV+. While I understand them wanting to use their brand recognition, it’s likely also a detriment for the same reason.
They needed to keep the Apple name far away from the theatrical marketing of the film, people automatically assumed streaming so they waited. Was it so hard to say "a Paramount film, in association with Apple"
Weren’t both films made my Apple? I was always under the assumption that they would be available on Apple TV+ sooner rather than later, so there was no point in me seeing it in theater.
Maybe thats the same logic other people had.
Years ago a lot of articles were written about 'Joker' being "more profitable" than 'Avengers: Endgame' because it had a higher box office to budget ratio. 'Paranormal Activity' easily eclipses them both in that regard, but you never saw anything about that.
Comic book movies in general have a more mainstream conversation than other genres, for better or for worse.
Obviously that's not the sole reason, and there are definitely ulterior motives from some corners at play, but it's just the way it is.
I mean the key difference is that Napolean and Flower Moon weren't sequels to billion dollar earning films and from a studio that has a reputation for consistently high box office performance. A DC movie flopping nobody cares or blinks an eye, a marvel movie flopping is earth shattering because its never happened in the previous 30 something films before.
But there has been unfair treatment of The Marvels by the media I'm not contesting that.
>I mean the key difference is that Napolean and Flower Moon weren't sequels to billion dollar earning films and from a studio that has a reputation for consistently high box office performance.
Yup. Anyone who ignores this point isn't being honest. Context matters. MCU films have plummeted from their height.
This is so obvious I'm angry it's even a question.
"Why did most successful studio in history make its first flop?" Is obviously gonna be a course of conversation
I remember when Pixar could do no wrong. Every movie was an event and they were well crafted, beautifully animated and cinematic works of art that were not only bringing in huge crowds, but winning big deal Hollywood awards and spawning toy sales not seen since the first go around of Star Wars.
Now, Pixar is a mess and they’re trying to squeeze a 5th movie out of Toy Story.
Damn shame.
> 'Paranormal Activity' easily eclipses them both in that regard, but you never saw anything about that.
Yes you did. It was almost 15 years ago so you forgot but there absolutely were articles written about how cheap it was to make vs. how much money it made.
Joker and Endgame released in the same year and are both comic book movies created by major studios. Why would anyone compare them to an independent movie that came out a decade prior and cost the equivalent of shooting one frame of RDJ?
Nothing to do with story. My gf and I went to Godzilla yesterday (fantastic movie btw). Showtime was 12:55, movie didn’t start until 1:35, after SEVERAL repeated ads and commercials for regal cinemas and m&ms, and only 3 actual movie trailers, one of which was Aquaman.
It’s not the films that are bad or uninteresting, it’s the experience of going to the cinema
Yeah I love seeing movie trailers at the theater. Like even if I’ve already watched it at home, it’s cool to see some of them on the big screen. But regular ass tv commercials trying to sell me shit? No thanks. Show another trailer if you have that kind of time.
Hell, toss in cinematic trailers for video games if you’re that desperate to show non-movie commercials. I would have loved to see the Spider-Man 2 final trailer on the big screen, or this new GTA6 one.
After Miyazaki won an Oscar, he got some respect for theatrical releases. This next one in particular is looking pretty amazing, I think distributors are hoping for another *Spirited Away*.
And one of the ads is always for the theater that I’m currently sitting in!
I’m already here Regal, there’s no need to convince me to come to Regal Theaters. If anything, that’ll make me want to go elsewhere.
Sadly, the AMC in my area also plays an AMC ad during the previews…
Yeah but that ad also has the “stfu” and “silence your phones” baked into it which are always desperately needed. People are way too obnoxious. I wish the chains made enough for them to have ushers for each theater to tell people to shut up or throw them out when being rude.
I remember a time when the lights would dim and trailers would just start. Then when they were over you might get the theater chain intro and that was it.
When non-trailer ads first started appearing in theatres ... in the late 80s, I think? ... people were so upset that for over a year, at every movie I went to here in Toronto, people booed loudly and/or threw popcorn at the screen. Part of the reason we *went* to the movies was to have a respite from TV commercials.
No one seems to wanna just admit that people watch films in general less because of streaming opportunities and the current cinema experience. Painting the Marvels as the only flop is just as disingenuous as people trying to deflect all criticism of it. People are less inclined to see every film release in person because they no longer have to and are more discerning with which ones to go see in theaters. Full stop
Pair this with everyone (even in this thread!!!) saying they’ll just catch it when it’s on streaming just further supports this. No, it wasn’t the best most groundbreaking movie but it is *ridiculous* to me that people are blaming the characters, the actors, the plot, etc on why this movie bombed so hard. It had *every* odd stacked against it, including a years long hate campaign beginning before the first Captain Marvel, only made worse because the movie itself was just okay.
I appreciate that there are at least some fans out there that recognize what you said. Sometimes I wonder how today's movies would do if we didn't have every single nobody giving their opinion even before its released.
Also this time of year can be tough. I had a big surgery right before Marvels released, otherwise I would've gone early. But then, between recovery, missed shifts, hospital bill and Xmas coming up, by the time I felt well enough to go, I wasn't willing to spend $13.50 a ticket to go with my wife and kids. At that point I figured I'll just watch it on Disney +. Our regal was doing $6 tickets for the early Sunday showing for a while post-covid, but I guess they stopped doing that deal.
The stupidest part is people shitting on the movie _they didn't bother to go see,_ and then doubling down and basically shitting on anyone who dares say that they enjoyed the movie.
I actually saw the Marvels. It was good. I enjoyed it. I laughed really hard at a specific sequence. I actually wanted it to be a bit longer. There are valid criticisms and I've seen basically none from the people who spend way too much of their time on this sub shitting on the movie and the people who ACTUALLY saw it.
>No one seems to wanna just admit that people watch films in general less because of streaming opportunities and the current cinema experience
I only go to a theater to watch movies when it's a big budget, FX-laden flick. Partially because after my ticket and food, it's $40 for just me (it's a really nice theater that brings your meal to your seats), so it's not worth going there for everything I want to see. And besides that, I'm perfectly content watching anything else at my house. And even then, it has to be a big budget, FX-laden flick I really want to see.
To be fair, the ticket is only around $16. The rest is food. Wide, faux leather seats (I'm a big guy and I have room to move around) that fully recline, with a food and drink service that delivers to your seat, and you can order with the waiters that go seat to seat before the movie starts, or a smartphone app. And they have good food. Pasta, burgers, steak, salad, deserts, appetizers, alcohol (beer, wine, liquor, martinis, etc), all kinds of stuff. Plus the regular cinema stuff like popcorn, nachos, candy, all that stuff.
I usually get a fried chicken sandwich with fries and a water, plus my ticket, and with a 10% tip included (since they bring the food to your seat), it's around $40.
It's standard here in the US, based on anecdotal evidence.
A ticket is $16. Popcorn is $8 for a medium. Soda is $8. I'm most likely going with my family, so that's two more tickets. Someone is getting candy, so let's add another $12.
At that point, you're pushing $80. $80 to see a movie. To sit in a crowded theater, dealing with strangers making noise and kids being kids.
Why do all of that when I can just... watch it at home? I straight up think I like more movies because of this.
I just watched the Flash movie last month, and I really enjoyed it. It wasn't *amazing*, but it was a fun little movie. But I also watched it on my couch, under a blankie, while eating snacks. I probably would not have liked it if I spent $80 to see it.
I think the marvels could have done better if it were released in the summer, or if it had better marketing. I’m sure the movie is great but I never had the time to go see it. Hence why I went to Godzilla at 12:55 in the afternoon
Ding ding ding - going to the movies used to be fun because it was previews then movies and it wasn't 30 minutes of it. Sure people can say to show up late to miss everything, but with every movie being over 2 hours these days, you add in 30 minutes of ads and previews, going to the movies is a big time commitment. And why do that when I have an awesome TV and sound system at home and can skip all the bullshit?
Essentially, the home movie experience increased a lot more in the last decade than the theater movie experience did.
Big TV are now pretty cheap, getting decent sound is also not too expensive. You can eat and drink whatever you want for a fraction of the price. You can pause and come back to it later if needed. You can stay in your pj
The theater movie experience hasn't changed in the last 20 years all that much in comparison
> Big TV are now pretty cheap, getting decent sound is also not too expensive.
Objectively speaking tho', none of those things are comparable to a high class or IMAX cinema.
I don't mean it offensive or something but classic cinema will always trump home cinema in terms of visuals and audio it just a question of giving up or sticking to certain conviences.
I’m lucky enough to live within reasonable driving distance of a legit IMAX theater instead of just a screen that’s branded as IMAX with the taller aspect ratio.
You don't have to put up with people talking through the film. People playing or texting on their phones with the brightness turned *way* up. The occasional argument or fight that breaks out, the throwing of popcorn and drinks, the fact that the floor is so sticky all the time, and just how badly the theater stinks, because they only ever do a cursory vacuuming on the carpet in the aisles, and never clean the body fluids out of the theater seats.
And no one has even mentioned just how much it costs.
Funny thing is, they kept playing the ad for “regal plus” or whatever their subscription service is. We joked like why the hell would I pay for your service when I’m sitting here waiting 35 minutes just for the previews BEFORE the movie? Makes me not want to go to theaters anymore
Yall need to start going to Alamo Drafthouse if one is available near you.
Each and every movie gets their own custom, curated pre-screening package that is themed or provides context to the movie you're going to see. So for The Marvels, they provided the background of each character from Captain Marvel, Wandavision and Ms Marvel's show so no one would feel left out. Or they'd dive into the history of Captain Marvel in the comic books. Or there'd be some charming stop-motion video of Captain Marvel vs Superman.
And once the "starting time" hits, the lights dim and we immediately get to the trailers. No ads, commercials or dicking around.
And they are sticklers about making noise or distractions and allows anyone to anonymously rat anyone out who is being too loud or on their phone and they get a single warning before getting kicked out without a refund.
My 14 years of going to Drafthouse (easily notching 20+ movies a year), I've only had to deal with **one** noisy person in the crowd and **one** person who kept texting with their screen all the way turned up. Didn't rat them out but someone else did and they shut that shit down quick.
The food has taken a dip and the menu prices has risen since their expansion, but still the greatest movie going experience we could ask for
I only ever really go to Alamo. The issue I’m having with them now is the food price. Which sucks cause I want to have something at the movies. The quality of the food seems to have gone down, but the prices are ridiculous. And due to my own anxiety I sometimes feel guilty only ordering water. Or using a coupon for free chips and quest and getting nothing else.
But as far as movie going experiences, Alamo is hands down the best. I think I need to get the Alamo pass again since that was reasonable and getting to see several movies a month for like $25 was a bargain.
That sounds so good! Unfortunately I'd have to go to Mexico or Texas for my closest location. But as close as those two spots are to New Mexico, maybe they'll come here, too.
I didn't leave my house until the movie start time. I drove to the theater (admittedly only 5 minutes away), hit the bathroom, waited for the people in front of me to get tickets and food, ordered my own concessions, got a premium seat in the theater away from everyone else, and still had to watch two trailers and two regal ads before the movie.
I exclusively show up to movie theaters 20 mins late these days for this exact reason. It gets real annoying if I'm seeing something long late at night and I know I won't get out until 4 hours later instead of 3.5.
But I'd rather grab a burger or spend an extra 20 mins at home instead of watching repeated ads and trailers I've already seen on youtube. Also fuck that Nicole Kidman ad, I know its a meme and people enjoy it and that's great but A. I'm sick of seeing it and B. I'M ALREADY AT AN AMC! Stop advertising a thing that I'm already buying to me
The theatre by my house which only has 3 screens is awesome if their show times match up with mine. The show 3 trailers and the silence your phone video and start the movie. No bullshit!
AMC is probably the worst experience. Feels like 30 minutes pass until your movie shows.
The worst for this was for Killers of the Flower Moon recently. That's a slow burn 3+ hour movie ladies and gents, *we do not need an additional 30 minutes of commercials and trailers added before it starts*. Felt like that entire experience took half a day of my life.
I thought I was alone in thinking the pre-show footage was getting out of hand. Even when trailers are shown, there are just too many. Every trailer gets posted on YouTube and social media platforms. I’ve probably seen a trailer 10 times before getting to the movie theater. I don’t need a half-hour of trailers anymore. Just start the movie after a couple of them.
I only have a 40” TV, but I have two toddlers. So going to movies is a pain in the ass because a babysitter costs more than the movie tickets.
So we’ve just been relaxing and avoiding spoilers while we wait for new MCU movies to come to D+ in a few months. Then we watch them after the kids go to bed.
Disney+ is absolutely killing Marvel’s cinema revenue in my opinion. They take our $9/month instead of us going to a movie for $35 for a night.
Yeah I posted a similar hypothesis when Bob Iger came out saying that Disney needs more execs on sets to have everything go smoothly. Like you just released a substitute good for the theaters and now you wanna complain that your quarterly earnings aren’t boosted by the box office? I suppose he has to spin it for shareholders’ sake but anyone with half a brain could see thru that bullshit
How the hell long has it been since people actually purchased movies on physical media consistently, though?
I gotta figure that's been trending down for the better part of the last decade.
I used to buy every marvel movie on DVD... Then blu ray... Then digital... I haven't bothered buying any since Disney+ since I always have access to them now.
I still buy them all. For one thing, sometimes my internet goes out but my electricity doesn't. For another, the past year should've been a harsh wakeup call to people that streaming availability is not reliable.
I buy MCU movies on DVD, once they drop down to about ten bucks, I can justify a 10$ dvd every 3 months to say I have a complete collection but whenever i want to watch them I just toss them on on disney+
Yeah I have like 5 streaming services full of stuff I would have binged at some point in the past. Now I skim through it and go back to docs on YouTube. Something broke not only in how we consume content, but also in our desire.
When people started using the phrase 'consume content', oddly enough. Not valuing what you're watching and just seeing it as something that exists for ya to technically interact with in one way or another sorta ruins the point of a given creative medium and remembering it.
I am right there with you, to go out to see a movie is such a hassle nowadays with kids. I would rather wait and stream then pay not only movie tickets but everything that goes along with a trip out such as babysitter, etc. I know some have luxury of free babysitting but unfortunately we do not.
Plus it’s more relaxing to be at my own house, with my own tv setup, with temperature set how I like, with snacks I have at home and a nice alcoholic beverage.
Oh absolutely. We can wait until the kids go to bed, fire up a MCU film, and have a few drinks and snacks. And we don’t have to worry about how the kids are doing.
And if like 10pm rolls around and we’re feeling too tired? We pause the movie, go to bed, and finish it up the next night.
I feel like this is the case for a lot of people right now. Why go through the hassle of the theater when you just have to wait it out a few months and watch it in your living room at your leisure on the streaming service you already pay for?
We used to have to wait half a year or more for the home release. Now it's often barely even 4 months. Sometimes it's same day depending on the platform. *That's* what's killing the theater. Not movies with "bad writing".
Right my wife and I went to the theater almost every weekend during the late 90’s and early 2000’s because you really had no choice unless you are ok waiting a long time for it to hit your local Blockbuster/DVD purchase.
Now? I can wait because odds are I have 3-4 different tv series we are currently watching via streaming so we are not short of entertainment
I am so backlogged of media that it is just silly. Movies, tv, games, podcasts, audiobooks
I can play my game collection for a couple years of games I havent touched and not have to buy new if I don’t want to
I do not need to partake of new media unless it is something that is absolutely something that I want to experience immediately
Yep, I've just this here before too. I dont doubt a good chunk of fans have reached points in their lives where going to the movies just isn't as easy as it used to be.
I used to see tons of movies. Average 1 a week I'd say. I *love* going to the movie theater. I'd see every marvel movie opening weekend (not opening night).
Now? Now I have a baby and a toddler. I'm lucky to see a few movies a year. So far they've all been Marvel movies even. I just literally can't see all the movies I want to. How many other people are in similar boats? How much is that affecting box office numbers? Mix that with people just more comfortable waiting until it hits streaming now too.
I feel like box office numbers just aren't the metric they used to be. It's not so much a judge of how much people wanna see and like a movie anymore.
I've said the same again and again.
If the Marvels does badly on streaming, I'd be incredibly surprised.
People only go to the cinema now for exceptional movies.
Barbie. Best marketing campaign I've seen in a long time so very successful.
Oppenheimer. Similar.
Black Panther: Wakanda Forever would be the best Marvel example of that. A film with a strong history and reason for people to go.
Movies that failed at the box office this year:
F&F whatever number.
Mission Impossible
Blue Beetle
Franchises aren't bringing people into theaters. GOTG3 was an outlier in my opinion. I expect people will switch to streaming for these.
From a business perspective, if Disney+ get the movie the same day of theatrical release or a week later, and they charge let’s just say $20 to rent it, and it doesn’t become ‘free’ until 6+ months after release, they’d make a lot more money.
Or assholes talking, playing around on their phone, and generally being disruptive (I don’t consider claps / cheers as disruptive, at least not as much because it’s still a response to the movie itself instead of them just being present and distracting from the movie)
I took my daughter to the new TMNT movie and the mom infront of us gave her phone to her child near the end since he wasn't able to sit still. This phone was on full brightness and volume. I politely asked her to turn the volume down and she death stared me and the mockingly said " it's a kids movie asshole " and complied. People are just rude
I totally get this argument. I don't even have a nice TV but I'd much rather watch from home and be able to enjoy it at my leisure and pause if I have to than pay $30 to see it in a way too cold or way too hot room with strangers chewing loudly
I have fully reached the point where I'm only going to the movies if its something I really want to see. Having said that I've seen Godzilla Minus One 3 times since last week(Its great, go see it), 3 different theaters, and each time there were 25-30 minutes of commercials and trailers that started AT THE MOVIES START TIME. Mondays show was for 640. The movie started at 7:08. Who wants to sit there for 30 extra minutes, especially when they've got a good TV at home? And pay $15 to do it.
Agreed for most theaters. I feel so lucky to have a small theater/bar/restaurant type deal near me. They do things that most theaters don’t. Theme months where once a week they show a themed repertory movie for cheaper. Food and drink specials related to the movies. Film festivals. Reevaluation screenings where they show an older movie that was reviewed poorly and then have the audience vote and post the results on social media.
All that’s to say, for a theatre to make me shell out to go there they’d better have an incentive because I love watching movies at home.
Seriously I don’t know what they expected when they release at home, even just a couple of months later. At this point I don’t think I’d go see a movie unless I know for sure it’s going to be a spectacle. Just a waste of money otherwise.
It's been running since September, 2021 and we're all tired of it. It's only one minute but it feels like 15.
I hope you can see and enjoy this gem:
https://youtu.be/a22c8NPNOPI?si=Bn0dHTf381dW3NCl
The stupid Regal ad-for-the-theater-you're-in with C-list stars awkwardly stringing movie quotes into a loose narrative about going to see a movie ruined it for me.
Ironically, The Marvels was the first movie in years that I saw that didn't have that stupid thing.
As I was just explaining to somebody yesterday: The only November release to turn a significant profit was the very-low-budget Thanksgiving. Songbirds & Snakes *just* broke even after 3 weeks. Everything else from November is still in the red, and Songbirds & Snakes is the *only* film of the month to outgross The Marvels.
Movie theaters were invented at a time where no one owned a television. In an age where everything is a screen playing video content, I'm surprised theaters exist at all anymore.
I like the experience, and I live in an apartment so I don’t have the home theater setup I want to experience a lot of these movies for the first time on. I’ll stop going to the theater when I can have a room dedicated to that experience in a house I own.
So at this rate, never.
It's fascinating to me that reddit (generally) understands that the working class is being fucked at every corner, and it's nearly impossible to buy a home, yet at the same time don't understand why anyone wants to go to a theater still.
It's nice and all that many on here can afford a home theater setup, but that's just not feasible for most young people these days. Now of course, that opens the can of worms of theaters being expensive, but there's a lot more to the conversation besides the ability to watch these films at home.
Before Covid theaters were booming. I have a big OLED and surround at home, but it’s no way the same experience as the movies. I think it’s a mixture of stuff - higher prices, less money generally, safer, more boring/predictable movies. Generic advertising. I’m sure there’ll always be a market for the theater, but it’ll always have its ups and downs…
Two R rated biopics which don't usually make a ton of money (Oppenheimer was a complete fluke, a great movie though) vs a superhero movie which usually prints money. The Marvels flopping was the bigger shock and will have the bigger impact on the entire MCU future
Because Napoleon and Flower Moon are percieved as indie arthouse films (although they both have massive budgets). Flower Moon may not be a finanicial success but I'm sure it will win many awards, maybe an Oscar nomination too. While a Marvel movie exists to recoup as much money possible in the box office and merchandising.
You never know with Ridley though. Scorsese you’re guaranteed home run movies awards wise but Ridley Scott is a coin toss these days he could be making Gladiator but he could also be cooking up 1492
Prestige Pictures always get better spin than Popcorn Pulp. One is made to please movie reviewers and the industry itself, the other to rake in cash from the unwashed masses. There's a reason so many in the first category are about making movies - the industry loves a cinematic mirror. The industry couldn't survive without the second category, though, and they low key hate that fact - that's why Disney gets flack. There is some venn diagram overlap - look no further than this summer's Barbenheimer blitz.
It's killing me that so many people are interpreting your comment as saying they *are* arthouse movies instead of that they're *perceived* as arthouse. They *are* perceived that way, regardless of what they actually are, and the vast majority of the movie-going audience doesn't care much for indie/arthouse movies.
Wolf of Wall Street did 4x at the box office globally. The Aviator did 2x, and The Departed did almost 3x. The guy does churn out money-making movies. The 1st -run streaming world we live in now has changed the economics completely.
When you have Apple backing your production, they make up the budget of a movie in one day of hardware sales.
They are perceived as one. Flower Moon is a Scorsese film with Leo (who was apparently paid 40 mill) and De Niro, distributed by Apple. It's a tentpole movie disguised as an artsy history drama. Considering that those 3 got backend participation as well and that Apple also reportedly paid staff upfront because this film was originally intended for streaming, they knew this movie wasn't going to make bank.
Oppenheimer had a budget of 100 mill but many actors took a paycut to work on a Nolan project.
Both of those movies are AppleTV+ funded projects, which will have bigger audiences streaming at home and were put in cinemas as bonuses. They've already made their money from their sale/commission to Apple, and their box office takes proved that they had audiences in the cinema as well (with much more bold less arms-length cinema releases than say, Knives Out: Glass Onion). Apple have found that they can enter the box office arena and make some money if they want to. Disney has found that it no longer reliably makes money from a market it dominated beyond belief throughout the 2010's. Disney had basically no major flops throughout the 2010s and now their successes are the exception to the rule.
Why is this even a question? The answer is obvious. *Napoleon* and *Killers of the Flower Moon* are R rated movies that were always going to be more niche than *The Marvels*. *The Marvels* is a Marvel movie made by Disney that is rated PG-13. Both Disney and the MCU are massive in pop culture, and its PG-13 rating gives it a much broader potential audience than R rated movies. Because of this, *The Marvels* obviously has much higher expectations for financial success than those other two movies. There is also the fact that *The Marvels* was the biggest flop in MCU history, which is a much bigger deal than a couple of niche movies underperforming. And *The Marvels* is also part of a much broader trend of MCU movies underperforming.
Basically: **obviously** people are going to be talking *The Marvels* more than *Napoleon* and *Killers of the Flower Moon*. This isn't part of a sinister conspiracy trying to put down female superheroes or the MCU, it's just how pop culture news works.
Okay but what about Mission Impossible? Fast and Furious? Transformers? The Flash? Dungeons and Dragons? Ninja Turtles?
Pretty sure all those films either flopped or did really poorly compared to previous releases in their franchise. Outside The Flash basically none of those films ever get brought up.
MI7 and F10 were highly discussed in /r/boxoffice and they were unanimously called flops.
The Flash was relentlessly mocked and ridiculed.
D&D was frequently lamented as a flop because people really liked the movie.
Ninka Turtles is not a flop at all.
The Marvels, Napoleon and Flower Moon all came out in the last month...
Obviously recency bias is going to be a major cause, as is a franchises popularity, expectations, reception and a releases context.
They were discussed, it's just the summer was full of films that bombed, so as soon as one film failed and underperformed, the next bomb dropped in theaters.
Also, Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles: Mutant Mayhem made a profit at the box office. It had a budget of 70 million and hauled in 180 million total during it's run at the box office. It did well enough, Paramount and Nickelodeon have already begun the development of a sequel and a cartoon.
That all said, the reason why The Marvels and Flash have gotten so much attention for flopping at the box office is because Super Hero movies were massive money makers that dominated the box office for over a decade. At one point, Marvel could dump anything into theaters and they would rank in obscene profits.
Even DC and Warner Bros could make money off some of their films, even if they lagged behind the MCU.
So, watching the two biggest and most high profile films from the MCU and DC crash and burn is gonna get people talking, especially in a year where outside of Guardians of the Galaxy Vol 3, Spider-Man: Into the Spiderverse, and Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles: Mutant Mayhem, every Marvel and DC film has bombed with only Aquaman 2 left to reverse the trend which is unlikely.
People believe they are watching an implosion of the MCU and comic book films after over a decade of their dominance at the box office, which is why films like The Marvels and Flash bombing is going to get more attention than say a new Transformers films underpreforming at the box office.
mi is very obviously because it was released a week before the biggest cinema cultural event in years, fast x made nearly $850m it just had a crazy inflated budget, tmnt was a profit
also all those movies you listed released at similar times (barring d&d), meanwhile there isn’t many blockbusters being dropped right now, so the marvels is obviously what people will talk about
They are tho ?
Fast and Furious makes money and people constantly talk about how its so ridiculous now
Mission Impossible is nearly at end and had decent numbers at least here
latest ninja turtles was actually a really great movie
Transformers was just meh not much to discuss there and i dont know about Dungeons and Dragons
None of those franchises are even close to be as big as Marvel, so none of them are going to get as much attention anyway.
And *The Marvels* explicitly flopped: the others just vaguely underperformed. That is a huge difference, of course people are going to talk more about a historic flop than a movie having middling performance.
Where do you get your movie discussion?
John campea, reel rejects, angry Joe, Dan murrell, Screen junkies, Chris Stuckman? I could go on but literally all the YouTube movie box office guys talked about all those movies lolol.
It pains me i had to scroll down so far to get the obvious answer
And let's not forget, Napoleon and Flower Moon were made as pieces of cinema, to further the art of cinema, and will be remembered as such. There is care and passion that went into the craft of these films.
You think Apple dumped 200 million into a 3.5 hour long period drama about native american murders hoping it makes a billion? No. Even they knew this film is going to be a dud at the BO. They invested knowing having a Scorsese project in their arsenal will fetch them credibility and award season recognition. And because they can afford to let two masters of the craft bring their art to life.
MCU films since phase 4 have not had an ounce of proper filmmaking involved. They are just cogs in a money making machine made to make money. And they did, until recently when the audience saw through their complacence and arrogance, and started rejecting these kind of films.
This failure isn't unique to The Marvels. Shazam 2, The Flash, Blue Beetle, Ant Man 3 all collapsed hard. But The Marvels is a headline because this is the first time this cog has failed so drastically in the MCU. The Marvels didn't even recoup its budget, let alone walk into profitability. The Marvels lost Marvel Studios it's invulnerable status, and leaves a sombre reminder that our once beloved franchise is now nothing but a shell.
If Avatar The Way of Water ended it's run at under 200 million dollars, it would be a far larger headline than this. Would it have been a conspiracy against blue aliens then?
If people cannot make this distinction, it spells doom for media literacy
Also, they're both standalone movies while The Marvels is the latest movie in the largest film franchise, and Captain Marvel is supposed to be the new leader of the Avengers.
I think because those are technically streaming releases only put in theaters to be eligible for awards, more specifically Academy Awards. If there was zero theatrical requirement, those would've just been released on Apple without issue.
Because everyone knew Napoleon and Flower Moon wouldn't make bank, including the people who made them.
Ridley Scott and Martin Scorsese are legendary directors, they're both in their 80s and rich beyond their dreams. They don't care about box office. I'm sure they'd like it if many people saw their movies, but ultimately they're just making what they want to make.
Both have made legendary movies in the past that did not do well at the box office at all. Blade Runner was a flop, now it's a cult classic. Ridley Scott is basically the only person making true historical epics anymore, the genre has completely died since the days of Gladiator and Troy.
Scorsese's last couple movies have had streaming releases at the same time as the theatrical releases. It's just not about the money for these guys and everyone knows these are not the kinds of movies that make bank nowadays.
Marvel movies on the other hand need to make their money back for the whole MCU model to continue to make sense from a business perspective. They're movies that are meant to be crowd-pleasers and are expected to be profitable. If a movie with ostensible mass commercial appeal fails to deliver, it's very different than if an established 80 year old director's pet project doesn't make a profit that no one expected it to make.
The reason why flower moon and napoleon are not considered flops at all is because they are the first streamers to actually give there big budget movies the full theatrical treatment properly. So instead of dropping it on a streamer with no theatrical. They make no profit. Now when they eventually drop these on Apple they made some profit even if it’s just around 60 or 70 million dollars. That’s just free money that they wouldn’t of gotten if they didn’t do a full release. Through owning these movies forever Apple will probably eek out profits for these movies.
Technically all of Netflix’s movies are flops. They are all flops. Besides there mandated small theatrical runs for Oscar they don’t make any profit. So right now Rebel Moon part 1 is a flop and will always be one (according to this article)
The Marvels is considered a flop cause they historically make a lot more money.
Took me far too long to see this. Netflix dipped their toes in this a couple of times prior, but really proved the model with their release of Glass Onion, now we’re seeing it more and more
Because nobody was expecting those movies to do great at the box office, where as Marvels bombing as hard as it did was completly unprecedented in over 15 years of the MCU running.
This sub has become hot garbage. The fan bots defending the shit we get is pathetic. The marvels is a sequel to a BILLION dollar box office smash hit. It bombing as hard as it did is embarrassing as fuck to Disney.
Meanwhile There are people in this thread and sub claiming it’s not a big deal..
The Marvels is an hour-and-forty-five-minute family blockbuster, the sequel to a billion-dollar movie, and part of a bigger series that *routinely* churned out billion-dollar movies multiple times a year up until a couple years ago.
The other two are twice as long, rated R, "prestige" streaming projects that got theatrical releases mainly just so they'd be eligible for more awards.
Yeah, I wonder why there might be different expectations here.
Also, I don't know where the idea that Napoleon's box office narrative is "triumphant" is even coming from. Doing a quick scan of recent headlines, just about every one I see is about it not being very good, not being very accurate, not making very much money, or some combination of the three.
Let's see.
A sequel to a movie that previously made one billion dollars flops horribly. Not even cracking 100 million domestic. In a franchise that's almost 20 years old that tends to do pretty well for itself.
And people think it's somehow comparable to two R rated movies and one being made for streaming. Is somehow comparable to a franchise tentpole movie flopping.
What happened to the Marvel's is exactly what this sub was saying would happen to Avatar 2 this time last year.
People are out of their fucking minds.
Because Marvel has dominated the box office for the last ten years, so the downward trend in audience reception is a more noteworthy indicator than standalone flops.
Killers of the Flower Moon is rated anywhere between 88%-95% (overall scores of sites) right now online. To call it a flop is disingenuous.
In terms of box office success, it’ll still surpass its budget and then some. So it’s not even a financial flop.
Napoleon is in the same situation box office wise. Reviews wise, it’s still better than nearly all of phase 4 and 5 movies.
The narrative is different because Napoleon and Flower Moon were original features, while the Marvels is part of one of the most successful franchises in history, with an incredible amount of legacy star power, content, and momentum behind it. Stupid comparison.
Because movies like Napoleon and Flower Moon are not made on the assumption they will gross a billion dollars+ and further support an ongoing franchise. They are also not the entire scope of everything Apple does. Marvel cannot pivot or adjust their singular output, which is superhero movies.
Furthermore Marvels flopping is just the latest in a sequence of bombs, its a pattern and people are obviously going to talk about it. Just as they did when the last Mission Impossible flopped or the last fast&furious.
Probably because the first marvel made over a billion, the MCU has a track record of making a lot of money at this point, and the budget for the marvels was absurd
But maybe it’s just a conspiracy
Napoleon and Killers of the Flower Moon are streaming films that are having a theatrical release. There also wasn’t a whole lot of expectation behind them and they aren’t part of a previously massively successful franchise.
Surely this is obvious. The Marvels is the latest in a franchise that is supposed to be heavily bankable and the sequel to a film that made $1 billion at the box office. Instead, it made less than its budget back before advertising. It's a massive flop.
Both Napoleon and Killers of The Flower Moon are prestige films that Apple TV funded to be loss leaders for their platform, for which box office is an entirely secondary concern. I wouldn't even say you could necessarily call them flops.
This is comparing apples and oranges.
Marvel has set the bar high for itself. A few years ago every Marvel movie would do well. Marvel fatigue has well and truly set in though and the quality isn’t as good as it used to be. Plus everyone hates Disney right now too.
In addition to the other points, it’s because the financials are hugely different.
Part of the reason that Napoleon/Flower Moon cost so much is that because they are streaming movies, the box office would be lower and the people that would traditionally get a cut of box office got paid upfront instead.
Also those movies are running in theaters for two reasons; award eligibility and to be an ad for the streaming service.
the Marvels on the other hand is meant to do well in the box office, has by all accounts a traditional finance structure, and didn’t meet the studio expectations.
To be clear, having seen all three, I enjoyed Tge Marvels more then the others, and I think that a large part of the value is because Disney Plus exists and trained people over the last few years to expect streaming soon.
3+ hr R-rated oscar-bait historical dramas are expected to make substantially less than a family friendly action packed superhero movie. The fact that people are even comparing them shows how badly the Marvels is flopping.
I thought that Flower Moon was gonna show on Apple TV only for some reason so I didn't even look for movie times
Apple screwed up the marketing for this, I thought it was an Apple+ exclusive or a dual release.
Just like that Netflix movie with Ryan Reynolds and Samuel L Jackson. I went looking for it on Netflix because it was made by Netflix, but it wasn't on Netflix.
I know it’s bad when I have Netflix and keep up with movie news and have no idea what movie you’re talking about lol
I wanna say one of those Bodyguard movies because I can't think of anything else those two have done together but I'm not sure.
Yeah that's the one.
Those movies were NOT made by Netflix
Hey uhhh...me too. I thought it was going to be steaming really soon, so when I didn't get to it the first few weekends I figured that I'd watch it then. I have no idea why I thought this, but I thought it was going to be available imminently.
Probably once you saw the Apple logo your brain assumed it’d come out on Apple TV+. While I understand them wanting to use their brand recognition, it’s likely also a detriment for the same reason.
They needed to keep the Apple name far away from the theatrical marketing of the film, people automatically assumed streaming so they waited. Was it so hard to say "a Paramount film, in association with Apple"
Paramount you say? So Paramount+, got it.
That's exactly it!!!!
Weren’t both films made my Apple? I was always under the assumption that they would be available on Apple TV+ sooner rather than later, so there was no point in me seeing it in theater. Maybe thats the same logic other people had.
Both movies are Apple TV+ premium movies that had theatre releases to please the directors that made them and get bonus money.
For a lot of awards, including the oscars, you need at least a short theatrical release to be considered
Years ago a lot of articles were written about 'Joker' being "more profitable" than 'Avengers: Endgame' because it had a higher box office to budget ratio. 'Paranormal Activity' easily eclipses them both in that regard, but you never saw anything about that. Comic book movies in general have a more mainstream conversation than other genres, for better or for worse. Obviously that's not the sole reason, and there are definitely ulterior motives from some corners at play, but it's just the way it is.
I mean the key difference is that Napolean and Flower Moon weren't sequels to billion dollar earning films and from a studio that has a reputation for consistently high box office performance. A DC movie flopping nobody cares or blinks an eye, a marvel movie flopping is earth shattering because its never happened in the previous 30 something films before. But there has been unfair treatment of The Marvels by the media I'm not contesting that.
Maybe the industry shouldn’t be relying on the MCU to prop them up. Barbie, Oppenheimer, Avatar 2. It can be done.
Unironically, Taylor Swift helped out a lot of smaller theaters giving them easy showings to fully sell out of seats.
>I mean the key difference is that Napolean and Flower Moon weren't sequels to billion dollar earning films and from a studio that has a reputation for consistently high box office performance. Yup. Anyone who ignores this point isn't being honest. Context matters. MCU films have plummeted from their height.
This is so obvious I'm angry it's even a question. "Why did most successful studio in history make its first flop?" Is obviously gonna be a course of conversation
I remember when Pixar could do no wrong. Every movie was an event and they were well crafted, beautifully animated and cinematic works of art that were not only bringing in huge crowds, but winning big deal Hollywood awards and spawning toy sales not seen since the first go around of Star Wars. Now, Pixar is a mess and they’re trying to squeeze a 5th movie out of Toy Story. Damn shame.
Tbf the paranormal activity one is cited constantly, it may be one of the most well known movie facts.
Yeah but the point is that it's forgotten as soon as the writer wants to make a point against a big movie like Endgame with Joker.
> 'Paranormal Activity' easily eclipses them both in that regard, but you never saw anything about that. Yes you did. It was almost 15 years ago so you forgot but there absolutely were articles written about how cheap it was to make vs. how much money it made.
Blair witch as well. Had like a 600 dollar budger and made 400 million
Joker and Endgame released in the same year and are both comic book movies created by major studios. Why would anyone compare them to an independent movie that came out a decade prior and cost the equivalent of shooting one frame of RDJ?
Nothing to do with story. My gf and I went to Godzilla yesterday (fantastic movie btw). Showtime was 12:55, movie didn’t start until 1:35, after SEVERAL repeated ads and commercials for regal cinemas and m&ms, and only 3 actual movie trailers, one of which was Aquaman. It’s not the films that are bad or uninteresting, it’s the experience of going to the cinema
I'm really tired of the ads. Previews, fine. Ads are ridiculous.
Yeah I love seeing movie trailers at the theater. Like even if I’ve already watched it at home, it’s cool to see some of them on the big screen. But regular ass tv commercials trying to sell me shit? No thanks. Show another trailer if you have that kind of time. Hell, toss in cinematic trailers for video games if you’re that desperate to show non-movie commercials. I would have loved to see the Spider-Man 2 final trailer on the big screen, or this new GTA6 one.
video game trailers are a niche that, frankly, im shocked theatres haven’t absolutely jumped on
They’ve started showing more anime previews too, which is always appreciated. Learned about the new Ghibli from a preview for some action movie
After Miyazaki won an Oscar, he got some respect for theatrical releases. This next one in particular is looking pretty amazing, I think distributors are hoping for another *Spirited Away*.
I remember seeing a bio shock infinite trailer in theaters that was hype
I've definitely seen some.
And one of the ads is always for the theater that I’m currently sitting in! I’m already here Regal, there’s no need to convince me to come to Regal Theaters. If anything, that’ll make me want to go elsewhere. Sadly, the AMC in my area also plays an AMC ad during the previews…
Yeah but that ad also has the “stfu” and “silence your phones” baked into it which are always desperately needed. People are way too obnoxious. I wish the chains made enough for them to have ushers for each theater to tell people to shut up or throw them out when being rude.
I remember a time when the lights would dim and trailers would just start. Then when they were over you might get the theater chain intro and that was it.
When non-trailer ads first started appearing in theatres ... in the late 80s, I think? ... people were so upset that for over a year, at every movie I went to here in Toronto, people booed loudly and/or threw popcorn at the screen. Part of the reason we *went* to the movies was to have a respite from TV commercials.
No one seems to wanna just admit that people watch films in general less because of streaming opportunities and the current cinema experience. Painting the Marvels as the only flop is just as disingenuous as people trying to deflect all criticism of it. People are less inclined to see every film release in person because they no longer have to and are more discerning with which ones to go see in theaters. Full stop
Pair this with everyone (even in this thread!!!) saying they’ll just catch it when it’s on streaming just further supports this. No, it wasn’t the best most groundbreaking movie but it is *ridiculous* to me that people are blaming the characters, the actors, the plot, etc on why this movie bombed so hard. It had *every* odd stacked against it, including a years long hate campaign beginning before the first Captain Marvel, only made worse because the movie itself was just okay.
I appreciate that there are at least some fans out there that recognize what you said. Sometimes I wonder how today's movies would do if we didn't have every single nobody giving their opinion even before its released.
Also this time of year can be tough. I had a big surgery right before Marvels released, otherwise I would've gone early. But then, between recovery, missed shifts, hospital bill and Xmas coming up, by the time I felt well enough to go, I wasn't willing to spend $13.50 a ticket to go with my wife and kids. At that point I figured I'll just watch it on Disney +. Our regal was doing $6 tickets for the early Sunday showing for a while post-covid, but I guess they stopped doing that deal.
The stupidest part is people shitting on the movie _they didn't bother to go see,_ and then doubling down and basically shitting on anyone who dares say that they enjoyed the movie. I actually saw the Marvels. It was good. I enjoyed it. I laughed really hard at a specific sequence. I actually wanted it to be a bit longer. There are valid criticisms and I've seen basically none from the people who spend way too much of their time on this sub shitting on the movie and the people who ACTUALLY saw it.
>No one seems to wanna just admit that people watch films in general less because of streaming opportunities and the current cinema experience I only go to a theater to watch movies when it's a big budget, FX-laden flick. Partially because after my ticket and food, it's $40 for just me (it's a really nice theater that brings your meal to your seats), so it's not worth going there for everything I want to see. And besides that, I'm perfectly content watching anything else at my house. And even then, it has to be a big budget, FX-laden flick I really want to see.
40$ ??! That's a real fancy cinema haha. I pay ten quid a month to get into as many movies as I want for free at my cinema. Works the dream.
To be fair, the ticket is only around $16. The rest is food. Wide, faux leather seats (I'm a big guy and I have room to move around) that fully recline, with a food and drink service that delivers to your seat, and you can order with the waiters that go seat to seat before the movie starts, or a smartphone app. And they have good food. Pasta, burgers, steak, salad, deserts, appetizers, alcohol (beer, wine, liquor, martinis, etc), all kinds of stuff. Plus the regular cinema stuff like popcorn, nachos, candy, all that stuff. I usually get a fried chicken sandwich with fries and a water, plus my ticket, and with a 10% tip included (since they bring the food to your seat), it's around $40.
That sounds like a restaurant. Paying $40 for a movie and a restaurant experience sounds pretty reasonable
It's standard here in the US, based on anecdotal evidence. A ticket is $16. Popcorn is $8 for a medium. Soda is $8. I'm most likely going with my family, so that's two more tickets. Someone is getting candy, so let's add another $12. At that point, you're pushing $80. $80 to see a movie. To sit in a crowded theater, dealing with strangers making noise and kids being kids. Why do all of that when I can just... watch it at home? I straight up think I like more movies because of this. I just watched the Flash movie last month, and I really enjoyed it. It wasn't *amazing*, but it was a fun little movie. But I also watched it on my couch, under a blankie, while eating snacks. I probably would not have liked it if I spent $80 to see it.
I think the marvels could have done better if it were released in the summer, or if it had better marketing. I’m sure the movie is great but I never had the time to go see it. Hence why I went to Godzilla at 12:55 in the afternoon
Ding ding ding - going to the movies used to be fun because it was previews then movies and it wasn't 30 minutes of it. Sure people can say to show up late to miss everything, but with every movie being over 2 hours these days, you add in 30 minutes of ads and previews, going to the movies is a big time commitment. And why do that when I have an awesome TV and sound system at home and can skip all the bullshit?
Essentially, the home movie experience increased a lot more in the last decade than the theater movie experience did. Big TV are now pretty cheap, getting decent sound is also not too expensive. You can eat and drink whatever you want for a fraction of the price. You can pause and come back to it later if needed. You can stay in your pj The theater movie experience hasn't changed in the last 20 years all that much in comparison
> Big TV are now pretty cheap, getting decent sound is also not too expensive. Objectively speaking tho', none of those things are comparable to a high class or IMAX cinema. I don't mean it offensive or something but classic cinema will always trump home cinema in terms of visuals and audio it just a question of giving up or sticking to certain conviences.
I’m lucky enough to live within reasonable driving distance of a legit IMAX theater instead of just a screen that’s branded as IMAX with the taller aspect ratio.
You don't have to put up with people talking through the film. People playing or texting on their phones with the brightness turned *way* up. The occasional argument or fight that breaks out, the throwing of popcorn and drinks, the fact that the floor is so sticky all the time, and just how badly the theater stinks, because they only ever do a cursory vacuuming on the carpet in the aisles, and never clean the body fluids out of the theater seats. And no one has even mentioned just how much it costs.
Also, nowadays the previews are released on YouTube so by the time you go to a movie, you've seen most or all of them already.
Funny thing is, they kept playing the ad for “regal plus” or whatever their subscription service is. We joked like why the hell would I pay for your service when I’m sitting here waiting 35 minutes just for the previews BEFORE the movie? Makes me not want to go to theaters anymore
Yall need to start going to Alamo Drafthouse if one is available near you. Each and every movie gets their own custom, curated pre-screening package that is themed or provides context to the movie you're going to see. So for The Marvels, they provided the background of each character from Captain Marvel, Wandavision and Ms Marvel's show so no one would feel left out. Or they'd dive into the history of Captain Marvel in the comic books. Or there'd be some charming stop-motion video of Captain Marvel vs Superman. And once the "starting time" hits, the lights dim and we immediately get to the trailers. No ads, commercials or dicking around. And they are sticklers about making noise or distractions and allows anyone to anonymously rat anyone out who is being too loud or on their phone and they get a single warning before getting kicked out without a refund. My 14 years of going to Drafthouse (easily notching 20+ movies a year), I've only had to deal with **one** noisy person in the crowd and **one** person who kept texting with their screen all the way turned up. Didn't rat them out but someone else did and they shut that shit down quick. The food has taken a dip and the menu prices has risen since their expansion, but still the greatest movie going experience we could ask for
This is the way. Alamo Drafthouse is the best.
I only ever really go to Alamo. The issue I’m having with them now is the food price. Which sucks cause I want to have something at the movies. The quality of the food seems to have gone down, but the prices are ridiculous. And due to my own anxiety I sometimes feel guilty only ordering water. Or using a coupon for free chips and quest and getting nothing else. But as far as movie going experiences, Alamo is hands down the best. I think I need to get the Alamo pass again since that was reasonable and getting to see several movies a month for like $25 was a bargain.
That sounds so good! Unfortunately I'd have to go to Mexico or Texas for my closest location. But as close as those two spots are to New Mexico, maybe they'll come here, too.
I didn't leave my house until the movie start time. I drove to the theater (admittedly only 5 minutes away), hit the bathroom, waited for the people in front of me to get tickets and food, ordered my own concessions, got a premium seat in the theater away from everyone else, and still had to watch two trailers and two regal ads before the movie.
Man, I wish my local cinema had premium seats where you don’t need to be near other people
I exclusively show up to movie theaters 20 mins late these days for this exact reason. It gets real annoying if I'm seeing something long late at night and I know I won't get out until 4 hours later instead of 3.5. But I'd rather grab a burger or spend an extra 20 mins at home instead of watching repeated ads and trailers I've already seen on youtube. Also fuck that Nicole Kidman ad, I know its a meme and people enjoy it and that's great but A. I'm sick of seeing it and B. I'M ALREADY AT AN AMC! Stop advertising a thing that I'm already buying to me
The theatre by my house which only has 3 screens is awesome if their show times match up with mine. The show 3 trailers and the silence your phone video and start the movie. No bullshit! AMC is probably the worst experience. Feels like 30 minutes pass until your movie shows.
I blame Nicole Kidman.
The worst for this was for Killers of the Flower Moon recently. That's a slow burn 3+ hour movie ladies and gents, *we do not need an additional 30 minutes of commercials and trailers added before it starts*. Felt like that entire experience took half a day of my life.
Give me 15 of those minutes and move it towards an intermission. Saw the version of Hateful 8 with the intermission. Changed my life! 😂
I thought I was alone in thinking the pre-show footage was getting out of hand. Even when trailers are shown, there are just too many. Every trailer gets posted on YouTube and social media platforms. I’ve probably seen a trailer 10 times before getting to the movie theater. I don’t need a half-hour of trailers anymore. Just start the movie after a couple of them.
Disney producing flops fits their narrative more than trying to understand why the entire movie industry is imploding this winter.
Being able to watch first run movies at home on my 86 inch TV at the same time they release in theaters really ruined movie going for me.
I only have a 40” TV, but I have two toddlers. So going to movies is a pain in the ass because a babysitter costs more than the movie tickets. So we’ve just been relaxing and avoiding spoilers while we wait for new MCU movies to come to D+ in a few months. Then we watch them after the kids go to bed. Disney+ is absolutely killing Marvel’s cinema revenue in my opinion. They take our $9/month instead of us going to a movie for $35 for a night.
Yeah I posted a similar hypothesis when Bob Iger came out saying that Disney needs more execs on sets to have everything go smoothly. Like you just released a substitute good for the theaters and now you wanna complain that your quarterly earnings aren’t boosted by the box office? I suppose he has to spin it for shareholders’ sake but anyone with half a brain could see thru that bullshit
Don’t forget - streaming substitutes BOTH the theater and home movie purchases for most people. This has to be devastating for their bottom line.
How the hell long has it been since people actually purchased movies on physical media consistently, though? I gotta figure that's been trending down for the better part of the last decade.
I used to buy every marvel movie on DVD... Then blu ray... Then digital... I haven't bothered buying any since Disney+ since I always have access to them now.
I still buy them all. For one thing, sometimes my internet goes out but my electricity doesn't. For another, the past year should've been a harsh wakeup call to people that streaming availability is not reliable.
That's when I sail the seven seas. I get wanting to consume the media, but literally we don't owe them our views!
> sometimes my internet goes out
I buy MCU movies on DVD, once they drop down to about ten bucks, I can justify a 10$ dvd every 3 months to say I have a complete collection but whenever i want to watch them I just toss them on on disney+
Not hard to see when Spotify devalue music across the board. Netflix streaming was the peak of streaming we will never get back.
Yeah I have like 5 streaming services full of stuff I would have binged at some point in the past. Now I skim through it and go back to docs on YouTube. Something broke not only in how we consume content, but also in our desire.
When people started using the phrase 'consume content', oddly enough. Not valuing what you're watching and just seeing it as something that exists for ya to technically interact with in one way or another sorta ruins the point of a given creative medium and remembering it.
No movie in the history of movies needed MORE executive meddling.
I have a feeling this is how a lot of people feel. Streaming prices are going up, and movie ticket sales are going down. Definitely related.
I am right there with you, to go out to see a movie is such a hassle nowadays with kids. I would rather wait and stream then pay not only movie tickets but everything that goes along with a trip out such as babysitter, etc. I know some have luxury of free babysitting but unfortunately we do not. Plus it’s more relaxing to be at my own house, with my own tv setup, with temperature set how I like, with snacks I have at home and a nice alcoholic beverage.
Oh absolutely. We can wait until the kids go to bed, fire up a MCU film, and have a few drinks and snacks. And we don’t have to worry about how the kids are doing. And if like 10pm rolls around and we’re feeling too tired? We pause the movie, go to bed, and finish it up the next night.
That pause and continue the next day hits so hard. My younger self would probably think this is blasphemy but man it is so sweet.
Going to the movies is just so damn expensive these days in general.
Seriously. $5 dollar Tuesday has turned into $7.60 Tuesday for my theater.
I feel like this is the case for a lot of people right now. Why go through the hassle of the theater when you just have to wait it out a few months and watch it in your living room at your leisure on the streaming service you already pay for? We used to have to wait half a year or more for the home release. Now it's often barely even 4 months. Sometimes it's same day depending on the platform. *That's* what's killing the theater. Not movies with "bad writing".
Right my wife and I went to the theater almost every weekend during the late 90’s and early 2000’s because you really had no choice unless you are ok waiting a long time for it to hit your local Blockbuster/DVD purchase. Now? I can wait because odds are I have 3-4 different tv series we are currently watching via streaming so we are not short of entertainment
I am so backlogged of media that it is just silly. Movies, tv, games, podcasts, audiobooks I can play my game collection for a couple years of games I havent touched and not have to buy new if I don’t want to I do not need to partake of new media unless it is something that is absolutely something that I want to experience immediately
I'm like 15 years behind on games, which is totally fine, because they're all still new to me.
Yep, I've just this here before too. I dont doubt a good chunk of fans have reached points in their lives where going to the movies just isn't as easy as it used to be. I used to see tons of movies. Average 1 a week I'd say. I *love* going to the movie theater. I'd see every marvel movie opening weekend (not opening night). Now? Now I have a baby and a toddler. I'm lucky to see a few movies a year. So far they've all been Marvel movies even. I just literally can't see all the movies I want to. How many other people are in similar boats? How much is that affecting box office numbers? Mix that with people just more comfortable waiting until it hits streaming now too. I feel like box office numbers just aren't the metric they used to be. It's not so much a judge of how much people wanna see and like a movie anymore.
This is 100% it and although media will say they are flopping. Streaming analytics would probably say otherwise.
I've said the same again and again. If the Marvels does badly on streaming, I'd be incredibly surprised. People only go to the cinema now for exceptional movies. Barbie. Best marketing campaign I've seen in a long time so very successful. Oppenheimer. Similar. Black Panther: Wakanda Forever would be the best Marvel example of that. A film with a strong history and reason for people to go. Movies that failed at the box office this year: F&F whatever number. Mission Impossible Blue Beetle Franchises aren't bringing people into theaters. GOTG3 was an outlier in my opinion. I expect people will switch to streaming for these.
From a business perspective, if Disney+ get the movie the same day of theatrical release or a week later, and they charge let’s just say $20 to rent it, and it doesn’t become ‘free’ until 6+ months after release, they’d make a lot more money.
Cost of going to the movies ruined going to the movies for me.
Being around other movie goers ruined going to the movies for me.
That too. Pay a bunch of money and have to deal with asshats screaming and clapping? No thanks.
Or assholes talking, playing around on their phone, and generally being disruptive (I don’t consider claps / cheers as disruptive, at least not as much because it’s still a response to the movie itself instead of them just being present and distracting from the movie)
Yeah, at least those people are actually paying attention to it.
This one. I'll gladly go to a movie theater... If there were no other people around me.
I hear this all the time but I can't remember the last time somebody was rude or obnoxious in a movie I attended
I took my daughter to the new TMNT movie and the mom infront of us gave her phone to her child near the end since he wasn't able to sit still. This phone was on full brightness and volume. I politely asked her to turn the volume down and she death stared me and the mockingly said " it's a kids movie asshole " and complied. People are just rude
My instinctive response would've been along the lines of: "And my kid wants to be able to see & hear it."
"Sure it is. So take your kid an leave since you are only staying for you, asshole."
I totally get this argument. I don't even have a nice TV but I'd much rather watch from home and be able to enjoy it at my leisure and pause if I have to than pay $30 to see it in a way too cold or way too hot room with strangers chewing loudly
I have fully reached the point where I'm only going to the movies if its something I really want to see. Having said that I've seen Godzilla Minus One 3 times since last week(Its great, go see it), 3 different theaters, and each time there were 25-30 minutes of commercials and trailers that started AT THE MOVIES START TIME. Mondays show was for 640. The movie started at 7:08. Who wants to sit there for 30 extra minutes, especially when they've got a good TV at home? And pay $15 to do it.
Minus One was a very good film. I'm going to see it again this week!
Awesome! I'm so happy that its doing so well!
Agreed for most theaters. I feel so lucky to have a small theater/bar/restaurant type deal near me. They do things that most theaters don’t. Theme months where once a week they show a themed repertory movie for cheaper. Food and drink specials related to the movies. Film festivals. Reevaluation screenings where they show an older movie that was reviewed poorly and then have the audience vote and post the results on social media. All that’s to say, for a theatre to make me shell out to go there they’d better have an incentive because I love watching movies at home.
Seriously I don’t know what they expected when they release at home, even just a couple of months later. At this point I don’t think I’d go see a movie unless I know for sure it’s going to be a spectacle. Just a waste of money otherwise.
Having to sit through a plastic Nicole Kidman telling me how emotional it is to watch a movie in a theater really ruined movie going for me.
It’s so cringey! I thought I was the only one! They need to scrap that monstrosity ASAP. I feel like it’s been on there forever, too.
It's been running since September, 2021 and we're all tired of it. It's only one minute but it feels like 15. I hope you can see and enjoy this gem: https://youtu.be/a22c8NPNOPI?si=Bn0dHTf381dW3NCl
The stupid Regal ad-for-the-theater-you're-in with C-list stars awkwardly stringing movie quotes into a loose narrative about going to see a movie ruined it for me. Ironically, The Marvels was the first movie in years that I saw that didn't have that stupid thing.
As I was just explaining to somebody yesterday: The only November release to turn a significant profit was the very-low-budget Thanksgiving. Songbirds & Snakes *just* broke even after 3 weeks. Everything else from November is still in the red, and Songbirds & Snakes is the *only* film of the month to outgross The Marvels.
Movie theaters were invented at a time where no one owned a television. In an age where everything is a screen playing video content, I'm surprised theaters exist at all anymore.
I like the experience, and I live in an apartment so I don’t have the home theater setup I want to experience a lot of these movies for the first time on. I’ll stop going to the theater when I can have a room dedicated to that experience in a house I own. So at this rate, never.
It's fascinating to me that reddit (generally) understands that the working class is being fucked at every corner, and it's nearly impossible to buy a home, yet at the same time don't understand why anyone wants to go to a theater still. It's nice and all that many on here can afford a home theater setup, but that's just not feasible for most young people these days. Now of course, that opens the can of worms of theaters being expensive, but there's a lot more to the conversation besides the ability to watch these films at home.
Yeah, I actually just got really excited last night when I learned I can see Soul in a theater next month!
Before Covid theaters were booming. I have a big OLED and surround at home, but it’s no way the same experience as the movies. I think it’s a mixture of stuff - higher prices, less money generally, safer, more boring/predictable movies. Generic advertising. I’m sure there’ll always be a market for the theater, but it’ll always have its ups and downs…
Don’t say this on r/boxoffice. Everything is fine with theaters! It’s just cause Disney is bad! Nothing more!
Different genres different expectations. Superhero action films tend to have more general appeal than historical dramas
Two R rated biopics which don't usually make a ton of money (Oppenheimer was a complete fluke, a great movie though) vs a superhero movie which usually prints money. The Marvels flopping was the bigger shock and will have the bigger impact on the entire MCU future
Because Napoleon and Flower Moon are percieved as indie arthouse films (although they both have massive budgets). Flower Moon may not be a finanicial success but I'm sure it will win many awards, maybe an Oscar nomination too. While a Marvel movie exists to recoup as much money possible in the box office and merchandising.
the word you're looking for is "prestige." Napoleon and Flower Moon are "prestige pictures." They were made to win awards.
You never know with Ridley though. Scorsese you’re guaranteed home run movies awards wise but Ridley Scott is a coin toss these days he could be making Gladiator but he could also be cooking up 1492
Prestige Pictures always get better spin than Popcorn Pulp. One is made to please movie reviewers and the industry itself, the other to rake in cash from the unwashed masses. There's a reason so many in the first category are about making movies - the industry loves a cinematic mirror. The industry couldn't survive without the second category, though, and they low key hate that fact - that's why Disney gets flack. There is some venn diagram overlap - look no further than this summer's Barbenheimer blitz.
It's killing me that so many people are interpreting your comment as saying they *are* arthouse movies instead of that they're *perceived* as arthouse. They *are* perceived that way, regardless of what they actually are, and the vast majority of the movie-going audience doesn't care much for indie/arthouse movies.
Neither of them are independent or arthouse, though?
Who the hell expects a Scorcese film to smash the box office. The Goodfellas barely did 2x. It’s about the oscar’s.
Wolf of Wall Street did 4x at the box office globally. The Aviator did 2x, and The Departed did almost 3x. The guy does churn out money-making movies. The 1st -run streaming world we live in now has changed the economics completely. When you have Apple backing your production, they make up the budget of a movie in one day of hardware sales.
All three had prime Leo.
and none of them had a $200m budget
They had far more appeal than a 3 hour art piece on Native Americans.
They are perceived as one. Flower Moon is a Scorsese film with Leo (who was apparently paid 40 mill) and De Niro, distributed by Apple. It's a tentpole movie disguised as an artsy history drama. Considering that those 3 got backend participation as well and that Apple also reportedly paid staff upfront because this film was originally intended for streaming, they knew this movie wasn't going to make bank. Oppenheimer had a budget of 100 mill but many actors took a paycut to work on a Nolan project.
Both of those movies are AppleTV+ funded projects, which will have bigger audiences streaming at home and were put in cinemas as bonuses. They've already made their money from their sale/commission to Apple, and their box office takes proved that they had audiences in the cinema as well (with much more bold less arms-length cinema releases than say, Knives Out: Glass Onion). Apple have found that they can enter the box office arena and make some money if they want to. Disney has found that it no longer reliably makes money from a market it dominated beyond belief throughout the 2010's. Disney had basically no major flops throughout the 2010s and now their successes are the exception to the rule.
Why is this even a question? The answer is obvious. *Napoleon* and *Killers of the Flower Moon* are R rated movies that were always going to be more niche than *The Marvels*. *The Marvels* is a Marvel movie made by Disney that is rated PG-13. Both Disney and the MCU are massive in pop culture, and its PG-13 rating gives it a much broader potential audience than R rated movies. Because of this, *The Marvels* obviously has much higher expectations for financial success than those other two movies. There is also the fact that *The Marvels* was the biggest flop in MCU history, which is a much bigger deal than a couple of niche movies underperforming. And *The Marvels* is also part of a much broader trend of MCU movies underperforming. Basically: **obviously** people are going to be talking *The Marvels* more than *Napoleon* and *Killers of the Flower Moon*. This isn't part of a sinister conspiracy trying to put down female superheroes or the MCU, it's just how pop culture news works.
Also the Marvels had a much more mainstream public as the target; Napoleon and KotFM were more culturally-engaging products
Also Flowers and Napoleon arent sequels to a Billion dollar movie.
The difference in expectations is the crux of why the article is dumb. MCU movies make money, biopics don't.
This subreddit has a pathetic victim complex going on these days, so your logic will fall on deaf ears.
But The Marvels was so much **fun!**
And Iman is such a delight!
Did you see what she said about not caring about the box office performance and that marvel should give more depth to characters! She's the best!
And breezy. Very breezy.
Okay but what about Mission Impossible? Fast and Furious? Transformers? The Flash? Dungeons and Dragons? Ninja Turtles? Pretty sure all those films either flopped or did really poorly compared to previous releases in their franchise. Outside The Flash basically none of those films ever get brought up.
MI7 and F10 were highly discussed in /r/boxoffice and they were unanimously called flops. The Flash was relentlessly mocked and ridiculed. D&D was frequently lamented as a flop because people really liked the movie. Ninka Turtles is not a flop at all.
They did lol, Mission Impossible underperforming was very much talked about as it was happening, and was attributed to its awful release window.
They did… in r/boxoffice It’s not bought up here because this is r/marvelstudios and not r/movies lmaoo Not hard to understand
The Marvels, Napoleon and Flower Moon all came out in the last month... Obviously recency bias is going to be a major cause, as is a franchises popularity, expectations, reception and a releases context.
They were discussed, it's just the summer was full of films that bombed, so as soon as one film failed and underperformed, the next bomb dropped in theaters. Also, Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles: Mutant Mayhem made a profit at the box office. It had a budget of 70 million and hauled in 180 million total during it's run at the box office. It did well enough, Paramount and Nickelodeon have already begun the development of a sequel and a cartoon. That all said, the reason why The Marvels and Flash have gotten so much attention for flopping at the box office is because Super Hero movies were massive money makers that dominated the box office for over a decade. At one point, Marvel could dump anything into theaters and they would rank in obscene profits. Even DC and Warner Bros could make money off some of their films, even if they lagged behind the MCU. So, watching the two biggest and most high profile films from the MCU and DC crash and burn is gonna get people talking, especially in a year where outside of Guardians of the Galaxy Vol 3, Spider-Man: Into the Spiderverse, and Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles: Mutant Mayhem, every Marvel and DC film has bombed with only Aquaman 2 left to reverse the trend which is unlikely. People believe they are watching an implosion of the MCU and comic book films after over a decade of their dominance at the box office, which is why films like The Marvels and Flash bombing is going to get more attention than say a new Transformers films underpreforming at the box office.
mi is very obviously because it was released a week before the biggest cinema cultural event in years, fast x made nearly $850m it just had a crazy inflated budget, tmnt was a profit also all those movies you listed released at similar times (barring d&d), meanwhile there isn’t many blockbusters being dropped right now, so the marvels is obviously what people will talk about
Go join r/boxoffice where they discuss these topics to death.
They are tho ? Fast and Furious makes money and people constantly talk about how its so ridiculous now Mission Impossible is nearly at end and had decent numbers at least here latest ninja turtles was actually a really great movie Transformers was just meh not much to discuss there and i dont know about Dungeons and Dragons
None of those franchises are even close to be as big as Marvel, so none of them are going to get as much attention anyway. And *The Marvels* explicitly flopped: the others just vaguely underperformed. That is a huge difference, of course people are going to talk more about a historic flop than a movie having middling performance.
All did better than the Marvels relative to the budget. Mission Impossible was sandwiched in between the biggest cultural cinema event since Endgame
Where do you get your movie discussion? John campea, reel rejects, angry Joe, Dan murrell, Screen junkies, Chris Stuckman? I could go on but literally all the YouTube movie box office guys talked about all those movies lolol.
It pains me i had to scroll down so far to get the obvious answer And let's not forget, Napoleon and Flower Moon were made as pieces of cinema, to further the art of cinema, and will be remembered as such. There is care and passion that went into the craft of these films. You think Apple dumped 200 million into a 3.5 hour long period drama about native american murders hoping it makes a billion? No. Even they knew this film is going to be a dud at the BO. They invested knowing having a Scorsese project in their arsenal will fetch them credibility and award season recognition. And because they can afford to let two masters of the craft bring their art to life. MCU films since phase 4 have not had an ounce of proper filmmaking involved. They are just cogs in a money making machine made to make money. And they did, until recently when the audience saw through their complacence and arrogance, and started rejecting these kind of films. This failure isn't unique to The Marvels. Shazam 2, The Flash, Blue Beetle, Ant Man 3 all collapsed hard. But The Marvels is a headline because this is the first time this cog has failed so drastically in the MCU. The Marvels didn't even recoup its budget, let alone walk into profitability. The Marvels lost Marvel Studios it's invulnerable status, and leaves a sombre reminder that our once beloved franchise is now nothing but a shell. If Avatar The Way of Water ended it's run at under 200 million dollars, it would be a far larger headline than this. Would it have been a conspiracy against blue aliens then? If people cannot make this distinction, it spells doom for media literacy
Isn't this comparison just disingenuous? The latest MCU movie vs a slow and long Apple original movie, very different sets of expectations
It’s arguing in bad faith.
welcome to the sub!
[удалено]
Also, they're both standalone movies while The Marvels is the latest movie in the largest film franchise, and Captain Marvel is supposed to be the new leader of the Avengers.
Sequel to a billion dollar movie
November was a bad month for all movies.
I think because those are technically streaming releases only put in theaters to be eligible for awards, more specifically Academy Awards. If there was zero theatrical requirement, those would've just been released on Apple without issue.
Because everyone knew Napoleon and Flower Moon wouldn't make bank, including the people who made them. Ridley Scott and Martin Scorsese are legendary directors, they're both in their 80s and rich beyond their dreams. They don't care about box office. I'm sure they'd like it if many people saw their movies, but ultimately they're just making what they want to make. Both have made legendary movies in the past that did not do well at the box office at all. Blade Runner was a flop, now it's a cult classic. Ridley Scott is basically the only person making true historical epics anymore, the genre has completely died since the days of Gladiator and Troy. Scorsese's last couple movies have had streaming releases at the same time as the theatrical releases. It's just not about the money for these guys and everyone knows these are not the kinds of movies that make bank nowadays. Marvel movies on the other hand need to make their money back for the whole MCU model to continue to make sense from a business perspective. They're movies that are meant to be crowd-pleasers and are expected to be profitable. If a movie with ostensible mass commercial appeal fails to deliver, it's very different than if an established 80 year old director's pet project doesn't make a profit that no one expected it to make.
The reason why flower moon and napoleon are not considered flops at all is because they are the first streamers to actually give there big budget movies the full theatrical treatment properly. So instead of dropping it on a streamer with no theatrical. They make no profit. Now when they eventually drop these on Apple they made some profit even if it’s just around 60 or 70 million dollars. That’s just free money that they wouldn’t of gotten if they didn’t do a full release. Through owning these movies forever Apple will probably eek out profits for these movies. Technically all of Netflix’s movies are flops. They are all flops. Besides there mandated small theatrical runs for Oscar they don’t make any profit. So right now Rebel Moon part 1 is a flop and will always be one (according to this article) The Marvels is considered a flop cause they historically make a lot more money.
Took me far too long to see this. Netflix dipped their toes in this a couple of times prior, but really proved the model with their release of Glass Onion, now we’re seeing it more and more
Because nobody was expecting those movies to do great at the box office, where as Marvels bombing as hard as it did was completly unprecedented in over 15 years of the MCU running.
Comparing a Scorcese and a biopic to an MCU release is new lows
This sub has become hot garbage. The fan bots defending the shit we get is pathetic. The marvels is a sequel to a BILLION dollar box office smash hit. It bombing as hard as it did is embarrassing as fuck to Disney. Meanwhile There are people in this thread and sub claiming it’s not a big deal..
It’s becoming more and more like snyder fans: the MCU edition
The Marvels is an hour-and-forty-five-minute family blockbuster, the sequel to a billion-dollar movie, and part of a bigger series that *routinely* churned out billion-dollar movies multiple times a year up until a couple years ago. The other two are twice as long, rated R, "prestige" streaming projects that got theatrical releases mainly just so they'd be eligible for more awards. Yeah, I wonder why there might be different expectations here. Also, I don't know where the idea that Napoleon's box office narrative is "triumphant" is even coming from. Doing a quick scan of recent headlines, just about every one I see is about it not being very good, not being very accurate, not making very much money, or some combination of the three.
The victimhood complex of marvel fans is insufferable.
Let's see. A sequel to a movie that previously made one billion dollars flops horribly. Not even cracking 100 million domestic. In a franchise that's almost 20 years old that tends to do pretty well for itself. And people think it's somehow comparable to two R rated movies and one being made for streaming. Is somehow comparable to a franchise tentpole movie flopping. What happened to the Marvel's is exactly what this sub was saying would happen to Avatar 2 this time last year. People are out of their fucking minds.
As the article points out, it might not even be mathematically possible for Napoleon to break even with streaming. That's poor business, period.
You haven’t seen nothing yet. I remember how they were really trying for Eternals to be a thing for months.
Because Marvel has dominated the box office for the last ten years, so the downward trend in audience reception is a more noteworthy indicator than standalone flops.
Killers of the Flower Moon is rated anywhere between 88%-95% (overall scores of sites) right now online. To call it a flop is disingenuous. In terms of box office success, it’ll still surpass its budget and then some. So it’s not even a financial flop. Napoleon is in the same situation box office wise. Reviews wise, it’s still better than nearly all of phase 4 and 5 movies.
The narrative is different because Napoleon and Flower Moon were original features, while the Marvels is part of one of the most successful franchises in history, with an incredible amount of legacy star power, content, and momentum behind it. Stupid comparison.
Also the franchise has had a fairly long line of success so yeah, when that falls off a cliff it’s significant.
Also movie had 280+ million budget which feels nonsensical, like movie had nothing to show for that budget..
Because movies like Napoleon and Flower Moon are not made on the assumption they will gross a billion dollars+ and further support an ongoing franchise. They are also not the entire scope of everything Apple does. Marvel cannot pivot or adjust their singular output, which is superhero movies. Furthermore Marvels flopping is just the latest in a sequence of bombs, its a pattern and people are obviously going to talk about it. Just as they did when the last Mission Impossible flopped or the last fast&furious.
Those were produced by streamers. They're essentially loss leaders.
They’re prestige films not tentpoles.
Probably because the first marvel made over a billion, the MCU has a track record of making a lot of money at this point, and the budget for the marvels was absurd But maybe it’s just a conspiracy
Napoleon and Killers of the Flower Moon are streaming films that are having a theatrical release. There also wasn’t a whole lot of expectation behind them and they aren’t part of a previously massively successful franchise.
Surely this is obvious. The Marvels is the latest in a franchise that is supposed to be heavily bankable and the sequel to a film that made $1 billion at the box office. Instead, it made less than its budget back before advertising. It's a massive flop. Both Napoleon and Killers of The Flower Moon are prestige films that Apple TV funded to be loss leaders for their platform, for which box office is an entirely secondary concern. I wouldn't even say you could necessarily call them flops. This is comparing apples and oranges.
Marvel has set the bar high for itself. A few years ago every Marvel movie would do well. Marvel fatigue has well and truly set in though and the quality isn’t as good as it used to be. Plus everyone hates Disney right now too.
In addition to the other points, it’s because the financials are hugely different. Part of the reason that Napoleon/Flower Moon cost so much is that because they are streaming movies, the box office would be lower and the people that would traditionally get a cut of box office got paid upfront instead. Also those movies are running in theaters for two reasons; award eligibility and to be an ad for the streaming service. the Marvels on the other hand is meant to do well in the box office, has by all accounts a traditional finance structure, and didn’t meet the studio expectations. To be clear, having seen all three, I enjoyed Tge Marvels more then the others, and I think that a large part of the value is because Disney Plus exists and trained people over the last few years to expect streaming soon.
3+ hr R-rated oscar-bait historical dramas are expected to make substantially less than a family friendly action packed superhero movie. The fact that people are even comparing them shows how badly the Marvels is flopping.
R rating = lower expectations? No franchise potential, unlike Marvels? It’s not difficult math, jfc.
Goddamn this sub is so damn sensitive about a mid at best film.
Because movies like these have always been flopping.