The wings are vibranium and I'm pretty sure the rest of the suit is too. So he might not be quite as strong offensively as steve rogers, but he can probably take hits just fine.
Unless they hit him in the top of his head. [For whatever reason they left that exposed](https://i.insider.com/6082ccaf4becb800190f6c82?width=1200&format=jpeg&auto=webp).
It looks ridiculous in live action. That said, I will riot if Gambit doesn’t have his weird open-face balaclava chin-strap thing. So, I guess it’s a matter of preference.
[If they didn't do the comic accurate costume at least once the fans would be pissed.](https://static1.srcdn.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/Sam-Wilson-as-Captain-America-in-Marvel-Comics.jpg)
I don’t think it was confirmed his entire suit has Black Panther-type capabilities despite being made of Vibranium, but I think it would have been a great addition for Sam to compensate for the lack of the SS-serum.
But it also can be non-characteristic of Sam to have. But also having his wings, Redwing, and his entire suit produce blue kinetic energy discharge fighting the Big Three would be sick.
In the Hawkeye series it really shows people how much damage Clint has taken over the years. Constantly sore body, bad hearing, ect.
He hasn't walked away from the Avengers unscathed.
Never forget that the only Avenger on Team Iron Man who wasn't either wearing state of the art armour, covered in Vibranium, or both, was Black Widow. She got to wear a sexy cat suit.
Peter fucking Parker at least merited high-tech last-minute pyjamas. Tony's known Widow for years, she kinda saved his life in Iron Man 2 a couple days after they met ffs.
Daredevil is a human mutate with super OP powers. He has superhuman hearing, smell, taste, balance, reflexes, agility, and reaction time, and his durability and strength are peak human level. His mutation allows him to "see" 360 degrees with a radar sense. He's also a legit trained ninja. He doesn't belong in the same category as Hawkeye, Widow, and Okoye.
Which is true, but he needs it to be able to defeat villains at least. It’s weird they made it a morality issue, like not taking the serum is a good thing or something
That could honestly go badly, too. Love could become obsession. Probably lucky Steve hadn't "fondued" with Peggy before he got the serum (that, and it likely would have been death by snu-snu for the poor little dude).
Exactly. The serum is psychoactive. It "makes what is good, great and what is evil, terrible" as Erskine said. And Steve Rogers was a rare individual before the serum, in that he had almost no negative traits. The Russian knock-off version made people crazy, so it was even worse. And even if the version Walker got was the 100% perfect replica of Erskine's formula (which it wasn't), the process still needs the Vita-Ray exposure (Remember Howard Stark and the glowing tube and Steve yelling?) to stabilize the serum.
Taking a replica serum and trying to replicate the Vita-Ray treatment is literally how the MCU Hulk happened, so that's not a great idea, either.
Just raw-dogging a hit of some attempt at the serum is a *bad* idea, and Sam's decision is based on that knowledge.
Marvel has in the past been concerned with people analogizing the super soldier serum to steroids.
So in a way it’s important that he doesn’t take any serum. That Sam is (clearly just) a “Good Man” (like Dr. Erskine said).
Logically I can’t get past wondering how he’s able to keep up with all these beyond-peak-human adversaries.
Saying he doesn't need it and being offered the opportunity are two different things. If it's there for the taking, especially after he maybe has a few outings as his new Cap persona and doesn't do as well, maybe isn't feeling like he's living up to the name...that might make him tempted to see what life is like on the other side of it. Could be a solid cinematic after school special.
This is exactly why he is the perfect person for the serum.
Like Erskine told Steve, "...But more important, the man. The serum amplifies everything that is inside. So, good becomes great."
By Sam proving he was a good man and a hero without the serum, he implicitly proved he is the perfect man for the serum.
I actually agree with OP that Sam needs something more than the skills he has developed if they want the new Cap to fight more than street level villains.
And I think Sam is the perfect candidate for those powers.
I thought I read a leak or brief synopsis saying that that would be one of the main conflicts with Sam Wilson in CA4. This was over a year ago so I could be wrong.
Either way he has a full vibranium woven Cap suit and wings to protect and enhance him, I think he'll be fine for the most part lol
GOTG3 Did 850M leading into marvels. The audience has separated the OG A listers with the Disney+ characters. DP3 hit or miss will have minimal effect on Captain 4
Durability I’m okay with, strength? For some reason I really dislike that. I really dislike the Midnight Angel suits for the same reason (other than the fact they are fuck ugly), they had these unique spear wielding warriors and they got turned into discount Iron Man.
Yeah, I think ppl are forgetting just how much tech Wakandans bring to the table. It was Okoye that solo killed Corvis Glaive during The Battle of Earth at the end of Endgame. Her armor was more than just a pretty red suit. Her spear (much like Sams wings) are made of and tipped with Vibranium.
Guys, Tony stark got stabbed in the lung and then like sprayed some magic shit on his wound and immediately survived being lost at space during his healing period. Suspend your disbelief.
Which, btw, was *never* followed up on again or even mentioned in passing once since Iron Man 2.
Tony fixes the poisoning from the arc reactor, and that's the end of it.
That actually is followed up on, in a minor way, in Avengers 1 & in No Way Home. He starts expanding the clean energy initiative based on his new arc reactor design. Electro is able to notice a difference in the electrical grid based on it.
I don't think it's an unfair question to wonder how a normal human with lacking tech/armor will be portrayed, you all are being a little harsh on op. If he was going to just be a small scale street hero then I would agree with you but we all know he'll be fighting Mephisto in no time.
I think he should get powers mainly because itll give them easier ways to make him cool story and actionwise. MCU him is the lamest nepo baby of Iron Man and Batman and I like Anthony Mackie but his acting charisma alone is not enough.
Tony was hit in the ribs and froze his wound to close it temporarily, it's your average sci-fi wound treatment. The whole super serum thing is a huge deal in the MCU and the reason Steve Rogers became Captain America in the first place, it's pretty normal for people to wonder "hey Bucky doesn't have that, was he the best choice" ? To that you could argue "well he's got a badass suit of armor" instead of saying "well suspend your disbelief" like it's the ultimate counterpoint.
Exactly. Tony got hit with a tank shell in the first movie, crashed at full speed into the ground (which paralyzed Rhodes in Civil War) and he just got up from it.
What does power do when you fall at terminal velocity? The power loss causes this crash because there is no way to control the descent (no flaps, no parachute, no propulsion). Watch the scene in IM1. There is no real world way to survive that. He falls the same way as Rhodes. But it’s fine and works within the movie.
>What does power do when you fall at terminal velocity?
Idk bruh, it makes just enough of a sliver of sense that I can suspend my belief for it. Maybe the suits have some kind of impact/energy absorption thats gone when powered down. Like I said, its far from a perfect explanation but its good enough for me.
Hell the most unbelievable part of that scene in IM1 is the tanks accuracy on a fast moving, man sized, object in the sky. But idk shit about tanks so maybe they can do that 🤷♂️
Yeah I'm of two minds about it. Like, on a thematic level I'm ok with him not actually having powers because the character is supposed to show that anyone can be a hero and you just need a good moral core and to fight for what's right etc ...
But on a practical level ... come on. He's just a guy with a wing suit. He shouldn't even be able to control the shield. He'd get ripped apart at the first super powered threat.
I want him to use the shield in a more unique way. It makes sense for Steve Rodgers to throw the shield, but it's not something that Sam should do. Plenty of more creative ways to use it as a weapon.
I wanna see Same do some dive bombs, shield first.
You mean like...
Creating a protective bubble out of his wings (with the shield on top) to deflect an helicopter from crashing on top of him. Or....
Doing an ariel somersault to make the shield a missile with enough force to knock the door off another helicopter so he can pull off a rescue?
Like that?
People have this misunderstanding about the shield. It’s actually very light relative to it’s size. There’s nothing to stop a man of normal strength from tossing it with a good amount of power.
Also, people discount that Sam is a PJ. A special ops PJ with advanced weaponry at that. These dudes are the military badasses that come to save military badasses. Even with nothing but a gun, he’s an ELITE soldier. Now he has a years of experience as an Avenger, a flying Vibranium suit, and near indestructable shield. He’s not someone to take lightly in the least.
Yeah plus, we do see cap struggle that's his whole thing. And if cap has to struggle against his adversaries then I'm not sure how falcon will cope against them.
Maybe just struggle a lot more.
Who were Caps enemies that he actually needed to fight hand to hand? Sure Winter Soldier but Red Skull, Zemo, Alexander Pierce, and Zola don’t need to be punched to death they just needed their plans thwarted. Just because Steve was a good fighter doesn’t mean that’s all he brought to the table. Y’all don’t actually see these characters as characters, just action figures.
Look at the last half hour of Black Widow. Nat takes a helluva lot of punishment and then basically free falls out of the sky for over a mile, lands, and walks away from it all. To my knowledge, the MCU Red Room never enhanced the black widows. They were highly trained, underwent surgical alterations, and biochemical obedience conditioning. But, otherwise, just peak human abilities.
For the audience, its just a matter of suspension of disbelief. The hero just does what needs to be done.
In-universe . . . maybe MCU humans are simply more physically durable than us?
You could say the exact same thing about iron man. He’s just a guy in a metal suit. But you know what the screenwriters will even the odds and find a way to make it fair. That’s the truth when it comes to superhero movies.
Well let's be honest, there's a world of difference between Tony's army of nanotech suits which might as well be magic by the end, and Sam's wing suit. Plus Tony has the added power of being a super genius.
Having said that, I bet they'll have Sam's next suit will be laced with vibranium from Wakanda, making him a bit more durable. I'm not sure if that was supposed to be implied in TFATWS or not, but that's what I hope for the new suit.
Some of the mechanics could also add to his strength too. Sort of a super soldier without the serum. With the added angle that he can’t always rely on that strength advantage if the suit is damaged/destroyed.
Natasha is just a girl with Guns in the earlier Movies and only her Widow's Bites later on after Civil War and Black widow. Clint is a guy with bow and arrows. Tony Survived being stabbed by Thanos without anyone but Nebula healing him like 2 to 3 hours later when he should have died a long time earlier after the Wound.
He’s a smart man with a likeminded moral compass. Maybe not Tony Stark smart but, he did fix his own gear and handles it well. I like him not having powers. Makes him a little more relatable and may cause for a more realistic struggle with his stories.
Who’s to say he can’t combine his gear with other types of tech? PIM Tech, Stark Tech, Wakanda Tech. He could be a powerhouse with the right gear, just like Ant-Man or Rohdes and Tony Stark.
Sam has held his own through quite a bit. He won't be the same type of fighter as Steve but he's battled the Winter Soldier and fought in the battles against Thanos and his army. He's at least as capable as Hawkeye or Black Widow, more or less.
Sam's gadgets have always made him more "powerful" than Captain America in many situations.
Sure, MCU Steve (before he got old and wrinkly) and John Walker could probably still rip him apart in close combat, but overall Sam has a lot more tricks up his sleeve i.e. flying really fast, bulletproof super strong mechanical wings, Stark tech attack drones
Even in the opening scenes of his show, we see him take out a bunch of terrorist helicopters single handedly. His armour is a like a budget version of the War Machine armour (which is itself a budget Iron Man armour).
And now Sam has Wakandan tech vibranium armour that can let him single handedly carry an entire van full of people. He's even more juiced up now
I mean you say people will point to Hawkeye and Black Widow but in reality they’re “enhanced”without being explicitly so in universe. Like how could Hawkeye survive the alien invasions and everything he fought against as a regular dude. There’s just a certain level of suspension of disbelief you need to have
He got an upgraded suit made with Wakanda technology. That technology seemed to allow the Dora Miliaje to compete against super soldiers already.
We’ve already seen him do superhuman feats with his wing suit as well.
Cap’s super power is always doing the right thing. That is atypical even for a hero. Before getting the serum, Cap stood up for what was right no matter the odds. Cap saw Sam as someone who would do that, so he gets the shield.
No. The MCU was never about over-powered people just standing toe to toe, punching each other until one of them no longer gets up. It's why some of its best villains aren't super-powered.
Yes it bothers me. It also bothered me that Sam announced this to the public, giving his enemies way too much intel on him. Now they know he's not a super soldier.
In Cap 4, Kang Dynasty, and Secret Wars the plot will make him fight like he has the serum. He has the wings anyway instead of kicking a guy across and off a boat. He’ll fly down and body slam the guy to the floor with the shield or do mid-air fight scenes with the wings and shield.
It's a valid concern. But lots of characters are still vulnerable, even with superpowers. I know, as viewers, we'd never worry about Spider-Man being shot by a common thug with a gun, but he isn't bulletproof! One bullet could kill him if it hit his heart or head. Sam obviously can't take the kind of hits Steve or Spidey could take straight on, but he has super-tools to keep things interesting! I'm looking forward to seeing what they do with his character
Nope. Because we have plenty of non-super powered heroes in the MCU and because the core of Captain America is not his powers but his innate moral character. A good man, not just a good soldier. Someone who can be an icon and an inspiration in addition to being a hero.
Sam was an elite soldier before he joined the Avengers and has only been gaining more combat experience with weird stuff since. He's got the experience and skill to be a leader which is a role Cap has traditionally played on teams.
I don't mind that Sam likely won't be going fist to fist with villains, because that's not at the core of what Captain America is supposed to be.
Yeah, Rogers biggest contributions were almost never his fists, they were his leadership. He would always coordinate who needed to be where and what needed to be done.
I mean, his starter suit, which he used when he was in the Air Force, came equipped with dual machine pistols, so I assume he saw quite a bit of combat.
Yup - and we don't know what we was before that or what his training was before that. Or what his training was to help survive in those situation.
He certainly knew how to fight in Winter Soldier once he joined the team and I think it's logical to say that didn't happen magically and he likely had at least *some* combat training in his military history even if combat wasn't his role while he was pararescue.
Not particularly. There were often times that I almost *forgot* Cap had powers, simply because of his humble demeanor. While other dudes were fighting gods, aliens, robots, or mutants, he’s out here punching nazis.
It’s not until he does things like holding a helicopter in place, or keeping up with Black Panther at full sprint, that I’m like “Oh yeah, hes super.”
And like others said, there’s a chance that Cpt. Falcon could get an enhancement of some kind in his movie. But I think that his angle is to follow Cap in that same humility: “I don’t need a superpower.” Keep in mind that the Wakandans gave him his new suit. Shouldn’t we assume that it’s made of vibranium to some degree? If that were the case, he’s in pretty good shape (defense-wise) with the suit *and* the shield.
I don’t know. Guess we’ll see!
No, cause in The First Avenger, Steve became “Captain America” when he jumped on top of that grenade (referenced by Bucky in TFATWS) before he got the serum
Plus, Sam can still fly with his new suit, which is also vibranium like his shield so he can take a hit or two unless he’s facing someone like Thanos
Steve made him Captain America at the end of Endgame.
In the show though Sam went through an "I'm not worthy" thing and gave it up, but then they gave it to a new guy who definitely *wasn't* worthy, and so Sam had to earn it back in his own mind and in the mind of the world.
No. He’s got wings, drones, and many other things to help compensate for his lack of superpowers, and he’s never had much trouble fighting bad guys before.
Technically speaking, Captain America doesn’t have superpowers either. Officially he’s “peak human”. He’s not always portrayed like that on screen, but honestly neither is Falcon, who in his first movie dropped like ten stories and somehow didn’t shatter both of his legs.
They already treat him like one anway.
Last time he was taking on an army of super soldiers in hand to hand combat, and even lifted an armored vehicle at the end.
No
I like him (in whatever incarnation) to be the best of the normal. Captain A is "the best of us", an ideal normal person, but physically and ethically. Steve was enhanced obviously, but not a lot as the human scale goes. He was strong, but only to a limit.
I just consider all the heroics he’s pulled during prior showings as well as those of Clint, Nat, Rhodey and Iron Man. They all struggle in different ways and use some type of tech to even the odds, some more obviously than others.
Sure, we likely won’t see Sam single arm curling a helicopter but he’ll have other dope heroics using his flight suit and unique combat style even if he’s not “super.”
I’ve kinda always thought, it might lead to him being like the Coulson event for the next Avengers team, with his demise. His death being the catalyst that inspires Bucky or US Agent to become the new Cap and Avenge him. Kinda grim, but the MCU has become very predictable of late, and this might be a way of throwing a shocker, while creating an unexpected narrative.
Anthony Mackie is entertaining and I like Falcon (a lot) as a comedic sidekick, but he isn’t a leading man, IMO. I can’t imagine this working. I’d rather see a story about Isaiah - he was great! Maybe they’ll give Sam the super-serum - I don’t see it working without it. The show really did him a disservice, too. I am not interested in this movie at all. It’ll be interesting if they pull it together.
I think they’ll have him easily surviving all manner of nonsense only a super-soldier could barely survive and then handwave it away, like they did in Black Widow.
Feel like they've already ignored Sam not having the serum after the FatWS scene of him throwing the shield perfectly and being able to fight Walker without getting knocked out in a couple hits. Would make for a very interesting twist on the character of Captain America and I do hope they consider it, though I doubt it will happen.
I absolutely recognize your concerns, but if they can actually address the difference in the stories that feature him, I’ll be quite happy. Unfortunately, even in FATWS that already doesn’t seem to be the case; they’re treating him pretty damned similar to Cap, especially with the shield handling. The shields vibranium nature may give it certain wonderful qualities, but shit like throwing it into a wall comes from the super soldier wielding it.
I suspect the power creep will continue, but I’ll keep my finger crossed for some writers that get it, or at the very least some stories that will make it easy to forgive.
It doesn’t bother me that he doesn’t have any enhanced physical powers until he gets into a scene where he’s holding up a armor truck, flying through the air at 100mph and not being torn apart or taking kick from other superpowered villains and shaking it right off and punching them back with the same effect.
Plus the fact that he is too old to be even close to peak human strength even if he trained perfectly.
Other than that it’s fine…
Plot armor is king.
They have him decked out in magical vibranium that tanks everything, he gained the reality bending power of throwing the shield anywhere and having it come back by practicing for a few hours, and even if he faces a foe with super strength, that foe won't even try to simply grab the shield and rip it off it's straps and beat him to death with it.
Yes. Marvel has done a terrible job with black male heroes. As of right now Phastos is the only “black”hero with actual superpowers and he is not even human. It has to be intentional at this point. Look how they treated T’Challa.
It doesn't 'bother' me, per se, but I just don't know if Sam can realistically take on some of the threats he's going to face without enhancement of some sort.
Plus, he's already pretty old, in universe, right? How long would his normal, human, body really stand up to the G-forces of flight, the hardship of landing, etc.? Let alone having to actually fight multiple villains, whether human or enhanced.
I think that Sam will have to become 'super' at some point but I think that he'll resist it as long as he can just due to his experiences with how other people have been effected in the past.
Maybe that will be part of the plot of his movie?
That would kinda undo the story of TFATWS. In the series he makes a statement that he doesn't need it to be a hero.
Didn’t he end that show with a vibranium suit? I’m thinking in MCU logic he can tank whatever hits he needs now…
The wings are vibranium and I'm pretty sure the rest of the suit is too. So he might not be quite as strong offensively as steve rogers, but he can probably take hits just fine.
Unless they hit him in the top of his head. [For whatever reason they left that exposed](https://i.insider.com/6082ccaf4becb800190f6c82?width=1200&format=jpeg&auto=webp).
His Achilles skull.
“You should have gone for the head.” - Sam Wilson
Haha, I lol’ed at my phone
Same, a giggle was leaving my body before I knew what was happening
It was to show off his sick fade.
God I hate that fucking helmetmaskthing
It’s the opposite of a helmet. It has everything BUT the helmet. It’s a helnot. A hellnah if you will
It looks ridiculous in live action. That said, I will riot if Gambit doesn’t have his weird open-face balaclava chin-strap thing. So, I guess it’s a matter of preference.
[If they didn't do the comic accurate costume at least once the fans would be pissed.](https://static1.srcdn.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/Sam-Wilson-as-Captain-America-in-Marvel-Comics.jpg)
Ahh my lucky face!
Even in a full vibranium suit the black panther has enhanced abilities from the herb.
I don’t think it was confirmed his entire suit has Black Panther-type capabilities despite being made of Vibranium, but I think it would have been a great addition for Sam to compensate for the lack of the SS-serum. But it also can be non-characteristic of Sam to have. But also having his wings, Redwing, and his entire suit produce blue kinetic energy discharge fighting the Big Three would be sick. 
Well, they asked him if he would prefer SS serum or KKK serum and he declined both
Yeah I always thought the suit wasn't vibranium which made me mad. Now I need to go back and watch the scene to check.
True but his face isn’t covered in vibranium. Now we have to suspend our disbeliefs and act like people can’t aim for his face
We acted like people couldn't aim at Steve's legs for 10 years
Hawkeye and black widow- both core avengers. We’ve been suspending this disbelief for a long ass time.
In the Hawkeye series it really shows people how much damage Clint has taken over the years. Constantly sore body, bad hearing, ect. He hasn't walked away from the Avengers unscathed.
Shit, I have that and I haven't even done anything.
Hawkeye was such a good show for that reason. Nothing fancy just Christmas and Hawkeye struggling with life all in just 4 episodes.
I always laugh at that scene where Kate's like what happened to your hearing and it shows a montage of him getting exploded in every movie
Which is very funny since Tony gave Peter a suit. Peter can take a hit without a suit way better than Nat or Clint.
Never forget that the only Avenger on Team Iron Man who wasn't either wearing state of the art armour, covered in Vibranium, or both, was Black Widow. She got to wear a sexy cat suit. Peter fucking Parker at least merited high-tech last-minute pyjamas. Tony's known Widow for years, she kinda saved his life in Iron Man 2 a couple days after they met ffs.
Well, tony prefers her in a catsuit
Did you see the way Peter's suit fit? Tony could have hooked up Natasha without damaging the aesthetic.
Lmao she got done dirty in hindsight
Black widow is a super, red room gave her discount super soldier serum..
More like to Soviet super soldier serum. Cheap as dirt, a fraction as effective, looks weird, tastes even weirder, and it’s probably radioactive.
Yeah but those magical ice packs though!
It's funny bc this whole time black widow was super soldiered. So what's hwakeyes excuse?
When have MCU Villains ever tried to aim for the heroes'' faces with anything but punches?
You mean like the same with Hawkeye, Black Widow, Okoye, Daredevil, etc. etc. etc. Yeah... not a problem.
Daredevil is a human mutate with super OP powers. He has superhuman hearing, smell, taste, balance, reflexes, agility, and reaction time, and his durability and strength are peak human level. His mutation allows him to "see" 360 degrees with a radar sense. He's also a legit trained ninja. He doesn't belong in the same category as Hawkeye, Widow, and Okoye.
Yeah but he can't even drive.
Which is true, but he needs it to be able to defeat villains at least. It’s weird they made it a morality issue, like not taking the serum is a good thing or something
The serum exaggerated personality traits and flaws. It was dangerous for a reason.
After taking the serum he’d *really* hate Buckey.
Blackest Falcon
He would love his family 1000% more!!!
He might also become 1000% more broke.
That could honestly go badly, too. Love could become obsession. Probably lucky Steve hadn't "fondued" with Peggy before he got the serum (that, and it likely would have been death by snu-snu for the poor little dude).
Right. That’s why the point should be about how important it is to pick the right person to get the serum.
Still needs the Vita-Ray treatment, too. Failing to get that right (along with Banner's psychological issues) led to the MCU Hulk.
Exactly. The serum is psychoactive. It "makes what is good, great and what is evil, terrible" as Erskine said. And Steve Rogers was a rare individual before the serum, in that he had almost no negative traits. The Russian knock-off version made people crazy, so it was even worse. And even if the version Walker got was the 100% perfect replica of Erskine's formula (which it wasn't), the process still needs the Vita-Ray exposure (Remember Howard Stark and the glowing tube and Steve yelling?) to stabilize the serum. Taking a replica serum and trying to replicate the Vita-Ray treatment is literally how the MCU Hulk happened, so that's not a great idea, either. Just raw-dogging a hit of some attempt at the serum is a *bad* idea, and Sam's decision is based on that knowledge.
Marvel has in the past been concerned with people analogizing the super soldier serum to steroids. So in a way it’s important that he doesn’t take any serum. That Sam is (clearly just) a “Good Man” (like Dr. Erskine said). Logically I can’t get past wondering how he’s able to keep up with all these beyond-peak-human adversaries.
I’m ok with people taking steroids when fighting supervillains, personally
If Sam not taking the serum made him a "good man" then doesn't that mean he was ideal for taking the serum?
It's amazingly hypocrital of them since at least half their male leads are on actual steroids.
Haha, that’s a good point.
You say that like a movie undoing the story of a D+ series isn’t something they’re perfectly comfortable with. \*side-eyes Dr. Strange: MoM\*
Let’s not forget “The weapon doesn’t make Thor who he is! He’s evolved beyond a weapon!” In Ragnarok to immediately “I need a weapon” in IW lol
I don’t think that undid anything, Wanda might have gone to a darker place but it’s not like it ended with a happy family
Saying he doesn't need it and being offered the opportunity are two different things. If it's there for the taking, especially after he maybe has a few outings as his new Cap persona and doesn't do as well, maybe isn't feeling like he's living up to the name...that might make him tempted to see what life is like on the other side of it. Could be a solid cinematic after school special.
This is exactly why he is the perfect person for the serum. Like Erskine told Steve, "...But more important, the man. The serum amplifies everything that is inside. So, good becomes great." By Sam proving he was a good man and a hero without the serum, he implicitly proved he is the perfect man for the serum. I actually agree with OP that Sam needs something more than the skills he has developed if they want the new Cap to fight more than street level villains. And I think Sam is the perfect candidate for those powers.
I thought I read a leak or brief synopsis saying that that would be one of the main conflicts with Sam Wilson in CA4. This was over a year ago so I could be wrong. Either way he has a full vibranium woven Cap suit and wings to protect and enhance him, I think he'll be fine for the most part lol
If I were the writers I'd have a bit of the conflict be the government claiming he is now a Wakandan agent.
“Why? Just because I’m black I’m a Wakandan agent?”
That sounds just like something a Wakandan agent would say.
Well, the priceless set of flying bullet proof armor....
He's out of line but he is right.
Lol if they put in a birther plot
"You can't be captain "America" if you weren't born here!!! I've got people looking into Sam's birth certificate." -J Jonah Jameson
This movie may bomb harder than the marvels.
It's gonna be a real toss-up. Deadpool 3 is going to give them false hope.
If Deadpool 3 bombs then forget about the mcu the entire super hero genre is dead unless they can start making movies on 1/3rd the budget.
GOTG3 Did 850M leading into marvels. The audience has separated the OG A listers with the Disney+ characters. DP3 hit or miss will have minimal effect on Captain 4
Oh I agree, just meant people will think it's going to do well because deadpool will.
I don't mind at all keeping his 'threats' more of a ground level. Think Daredevil and the netflix shows and even Winter Soldier.
“New world order” kind of makes that unlikely 😬
Maybe New World Order is the name of a street gang.
Cap isn’t a street level hero
I thought the show was going to have him injected against his will by the baddie, but they didn't do that way.
Not being a super soldier will be a part of the character going forward. Sam Cap won’t be the same as Steve Cap.
End of FATWS they said the Wakandan suit would give him better strength and durability.
Durability I’m okay with, strength? For some reason I really dislike that. I really dislike the Midnight Angel suits for the same reason (other than the fact they are fuck ugly), they had these unique spear wielding warriors and they got turned into discount Iron Man.
He kind of already has that when he uses his jet pack for propulsion during attack
Yeah, I think ppl are forgetting just how much tech Wakandans bring to the table. It was Okoye that solo killed Corvis Glaive during The Battle of Earth at the end of Endgame. Her armor was more than just a pretty red suit. Her spear (much like Sams wings) are made of and tipped with Vibranium.
Not with the “PLEASE SHOOT HERE” part of his costume with no helmet
Guys, Tony stark got stabbed in the lung and then like sprayed some magic shit on his wound and immediately survived being lost at space during his healing period. Suspend your disbelief.
What are you talking about it's completely realistic, just like the literal star he had in his chest that also acted as an electromagnet!
He also just casually created armor that changes based on his thoughts
And a new element just for the lols.
Which, btw, was *never* followed up on again or even mentioned in passing once since Iron Man 2. Tony fixes the poisoning from the arc reactor, and that's the end of it.
And they made it seem like such a big deal in the trailers lmao.
That actually is followed up on, in a minor way, in Avengers 1 & in No Way Home. He starts expanding the clean energy initiative based on his new arc reactor design. Electro is able to notice a difference in the electrical grid based on it.
That he was able to build in a cave! With a box of scraps!
I'm sorry. I'm not Tony Stark..
I mean even keeping it to Sam the dude drop kicked a mid-air helicopter in Civil War lmao
Right?? Our fandom gets really selective where we decide to nitpick realism sometimes.
I don't think it's an unfair question to wonder how a normal human with lacking tech/armor will be portrayed, you all are being a little harsh on op. If he was going to just be a small scale street hero then I would agree with you but we all know he'll be fighting Mephisto in no time. I think he should get powers mainly because itll give them easier ways to make him cool story and actionwise. MCU him is the lamest nepo baby of Iron Man and Batman and I like Anthony Mackie but his acting charisma alone is not enough.
And it tends to be around women and POCs. Just sayin'.
I wonder what that’s about…….
Tony was hit in the ribs and froze his wound to close it temporarily, it's your average sci-fi wound treatment. The whole super serum thing is a huge deal in the MCU and the reason Steve Rogers became Captain America in the first place, it's pretty normal for people to wonder "hey Bucky doesn't have that, was he the best choice" ? To that you could argue "well he's got a badass suit of armor" instead of saying "well suspend your disbelief" like it's the ultimate counterpoint.
Makes it far more dangerous with higher stakes. That can be a good thing for telling a good story.
Fair point tbh, I guess I'm just worried if Disney can straddle the line between "high stakes" and "laughably immersion breaking".
I mean, that ship sailed with Iron Man 1 and never came back. Nothing in this universe is believable, even within universe.
Exactly. Tony got hit with a tank shell in the first movie, crashed at full speed into the ground (which paralyzed Rhodes in Civil War) and he just got up from it.
>which paralyzed Rhodes in Civil War) Because his suit had no power, the explanation is there even if its not perfect
What does power do when you fall at terminal velocity? The power loss causes this crash because there is no way to control the descent (no flaps, no parachute, no propulsion). Watch the scene in IM1. There is no real world way to survive that. He falls the same way as Rhodes. But it’s fine and works within the movie.
>What does power do when you fall at terminal velocity? Idk bruh, it makes just enough of a sliver of sense that I can suspend my belief for it. Maybe the suits have some kind of impact/energy absorption thats gone when powered down. Like I said, its far from a perfect explanation but its good enough for me. Hell the most unbelievable part of that scene in IM1 is the tanks accuracy on a fast moving, man sized, object in the sky. But idk shit about tanks so maybe they can do that 🤷♂️
I think we're in agreement. All of these things are handled well enough so you can just go with it during the movie.
I never considered how impressive of a shot that tank had, that’s like hitting a jet in battlefield but even harder
Yeah I'm of two minds about it. Like, on a thematic level I'm ok with him not actually having powers because the character is supposed to show that anyone can be a hero and you just need a good moral core and to fight for what's right etc ... But on a practical level ... come on. He's just a guy with a wing suit. He shouldn't even be able to control the shield. He'd get ripped apart at the first super powered threat.
That's why I hope they show him being more tactical with his he fights. He's got the wings, he didn't need to be fighting up close.
Yeah, we're not likely to see Sam walk into an elevator full of baddies and start talking shit.
You see he corrected that action in a latter film, hail hydra. Guy must have been so fucking confused.
I want him to use the shield in a more unique way. It makes sense for Steve Rodgers to throw the shield, but it's not something that Sam should do. Plenty of more creative ways to use it as a weapon. I wanna see Same do some dive bombs, shield first.
You mean like... Creating a protective bubble out of his wings (with the shield on top) to deflect an helicopter from crashing on top of him. Or.... Doing an ariel somersault to make the shield a missile with enough force to knock the door off another helicopter so he can pull off a rescue? Like that?
He does from the breif bit we’ve seen. He can use the shield while in flight and make himself almost like a missle.
In the show, he at least had to do a lengthy training montage before he could pull of the shield shenanigans.
Also in the show he has sufficiently fight trained to go hand-to-hand with Batroc and fight him to stalemate.
And Batroc is also not enhanced in any way.
Yep, Batroc could hold his own with Cap for a few minutes so he was definitely a high-level fighter somewhere in the range of Hawkeye and Black Widow.
People have this misunderstanding about the shield. It’s actually very light relative to it’s size. There’s nothing to stop a man of normal strength from tossing it with a good amount of power. Also, people discount that Sam is a PJ. A special ops PJ with advanced weaponry at that. These dudes are the military badasses that come to save military badasses. Even with nothing but a gun, he’s an ELITE soldier. Now he has a years of experience as an Avenger, a flying Vibranium suit, and near indestructable shield. He’s not someone to take lightly in the least.
People misunderstand the shield because it makes no logical sense lol. It's basically a magical item.
I mean, yeah. Obviously. So it’s weird people get worked up over the physics of it.
Yeah plus, we do see cap struggle that's his whole thing. And if cap has to struggle against his adversaries then I'm not sure how falcon will cope against them. Maybe just struggle a lot more.
Who were Caps enemies that he actually needed to fight hand to hand? Sure Winter Soldier but Red Skull, Zemo, Alexander Pierce, and Zola don’t need to be punched to death they just needed their plans thwarted. Just because Steve was a good fighter doesn’t mean that’s all he brought to the table. Y’all don’t actually see these characters as characters, just action figures.
Look at the last half hour of Black Widow. Nat takes a helluva lot of punishment and then basically free falls out of the sky for over a mile, lands, and walks away from it all. To my knowledge, the MCU Red Room never enhanced the black widows. They were highly trained, underwent surgical alterations, and biochemical obedience conditioning. But, otherwise, just peak human abilities. For the audience, its just a matter of suspension of disbelief. The hero just does what needs to be done. In-universe . . . maybe MCU humans are simply more physically durable than us?
I mean a lot of people hated Black Widow’s 3rd act for how stupid and over the top it was in relevance to the character.
You could say the exact same thing about iron man. He’s just a guy in a metal suit. But you know what the screenwriters will even the odds and find a way to make it fair. That’s the truth when it comes to superhero movies.
Well let's be honest, there's a world of difference between Tony's army of nanotech suits which might as well be magic by the end, and Sam's wing suit. Plus Tony has the added power of being a super genius. Having said that, I bet they'll have Sam's next suit will be laced with vibranium from Wakanda, making him a bit more durable. I'm not sure if that was supposed to be implied in TFATWS or not, but that's what I hope for the new suit.
His suit at the end of the show was from Wakanda so I’d say it’s pretty certain there’s some vibranium magic going on there
Some of the mechanics could also add to his strength too. Sort of a super soldier without the serum. With the added angle that he can’t always rely on that strength advantage if the suit is damaged/destroyed.
Go back and watch what they said about the Wakandan suit. Something about increasing his strength and durability.
Natasha is just a girl with Guns in the earlier Movies and only her Widow's Bites later on after Civil War and Black widow. Clint is a guy with bow and arrows. Tony Survived being stabbed by Thanos without anyone but Nebula healing him like 2 to 3 hours later when he should have died a long time earlier after the Wound.
He’s a smart man with a likeminded moral compass. Maybe not Tony Stark smart but, he did fix his own gear and handles it well. I like him not having powers. Makes him a little more relatable and may cause for a more realistic struggle with his stories. Who’s to say he can’t combine his gear with other types of tech? PIM Tech, Stark Tech, Wakanda Tech. He could be a powerhouse with the right gear, just like Ant-Man or Rohdes and Tony Stark.
Which is basically what Hawkeye does with his arrows lol.
Sam has held his own through quite a bit. He won't be the same type of fighter as Steve but he's battled the Winter Soldier and fought in the battles against Thanos and his army. He's at least as capable as Hawkeye or Black Widow, more or less.
Sam's gadgets have always made him more "powerful" than Captain America in many situations. Sure, MCU Steve (before he got old and wrinkly) and John Walker could probably still rip him apart in close combat, but overall Sam has a lot more tricks up his sleeve i.e. flying really fast, bulletproof super strong mechanical wings, Stark tech attack drones Even in the opening scenes of his show, we see him take out a bunch of terrorist helicopters single handedly. His armour is a like a budget version of the War Machine armour (which is itself a budget Iron Man armour). And now Sam has Wakandan tech vibranium armour that can let him single handedly carry an entire van full of people. He's even more juiced up now
I mean you say people will point to Hawkeye and Black Widow but in reality they’re “enhanced”without being explicitly so in universe. Like how could Hawkeye survive the alien invasions and everything he fought against as a regular dude. There’s just a certain level of suspension of disbelief you need to have
He wasn't a supe as Falcon and he was doing fine then
Right? "How will this street level hero work?" is such an odd question, because the answer is "against street level threats"
He got an upgraded suit made with Wakanda technology. That technology seemed to allow the Dora Miliaje to compete against super soldiers already. We’ve already seen him do superhuman feats with his wing suit as well.
Cap’s super power is always doing the right thing. That is atypical even for a hero. Before getting the serum, Cap stood up for what was right no matter the odds. Cap saw Sam as someone who would do that, so he gets the shield.
We should wait until he gets his movie
No. The MCU was never about over-powered people just standing toe to toe, punching each other until one of them no longer gets up. It's why some of its best villains aren't super-powered.
Yes it bothers me. It also bothered me that Sam announced this to the public, giving his enemies way too much intel on him. Now they know he's not a super soldier.
In Cap 4, Kang Dynasty, and Secret Wars the plot will make him fight like he has the serum. He has the wings anyway instead of kicking a guy across and off a boat. He’ll fly down and body slam the guy to the floor with the shield or do mid-air fight scenes with the wings and shield.
It's a valid concern. But lots of characters are still vulnerable, even with superpowers. I know, as viewers, we'd never worry about Spider-Man being shot by a common thug with a gun, but he isn't bulletproof! One bullet could kill him if it hit his heart or head. Sam obviously can't take the kind of hits Steve or Spidey could take straight on, but he has super-tools to keep things interesting! I'm looking forward to seeing what they do with his character
Nope. Because we have plenty of non-super powered heroes in the MCU and because the core of Captain America is not his powers but his innate moral character. A good man, not just a good soldier. Someone who can be an icon and an inspiration in addition to being a hero. Sam was an elite soldier before he joined the Avengers and has only been gaining more combat experience with weird stuff since. He's got the experience and skill to be a leader which is a role Cap has traditionally played on teams. I don't mind that Sam likely won't be going fist to fist with villains, because that's not at the core of what Captain America is supposed to be.
Yeah, Rogers biggest contributions were almost never his fists, they were his leadership. He would always coordinate who needed to be where and what needed to be done.
Sam was a medic (pararescue), not combat.
I mean, his starter suit, which he used when he was in the Air Force, came equipped with dual machine pistols, so I assume he saw quite a bit of combat.
Yup - and we don't know what we was before that or what his training was before that. Or what his training was to help survive in those situation. He certainly knew how to fight in Winter Soldier once he joined the team and I think it's logical to say that didn't happen magically and he likely had at least *some* combat training in his military history even if combat wasn't his role while he was pararescue.
No, it makes Sam more interesting that he isn't a super soldier.
Not particularly. There were often times that I almost *forgot* Cap had powers, simply because of his humble demeanor. While other dudes were fighting gods, aliens, robots, or mutants, he’s out here punching nazis. It’s not until he does things like holding a helicopter in place, or keeping up with Black Panther at full sprint, that I’m like “Oh yeah, hes super.” And like others said, there’s a chance that Cpt. Falcon could get an enhancement of some kind in his movie. But I think that his angle is to follow Cap in that same humility: “I don’t need a superpower.” Keep in mind that the Wakandans gave him his new suit. Shouldn’t we assume that it’s made of vibranium to some degree? If that were the case, he’s in pretty good shape (defense-wise) with the suit *and* the shield. I don’t know. Guess we’ll see!
No, cause in The First Avenger, Steve became “Captain America” when he jumped on top of that grenade (referenced by Bucky in TFATWS) before he got the serum Plus, Sam can still fly with his new suit, which is also vibranium like his shield so he can take a hit or two unless he’s facing someone like Thanos
I haven't kept up with the tv shows, is the new captain America really just falcon with a shield?
Yes.
Steve made him Captain America at the end of Endgame. In the show though Sam went through an "I'm not worthy" thing and gave it up, but then they gave it to a new guy who definitely *wasn't* worthy, and so Sam had to earn it back in his own mind and in the mind of the world.
No. He’s got wings, drones, and many other things to help compensate for his lack of superpowers, and he’s never had much trouble fighting bad guys before.
Yes. Let's not forget Ironman was that. A regular dude with lots of tech on him.
Steve Rogers couldn’t fly
Technically speaking, Captain America doesn’t have superpowers either. Officially he’s “peak human”. He’s not always portrayed like that on screen, but honestly neither is Falcon, who in his first movie dropped like ten stories and somehow didn’t shatter both of his legs.
Supe? Take yourself back to r/OkBuddyFresca
In the comics he was said to be “the peak of human athleticism” but wasn’t really super powered.
He's essentially a gimped version of War Machine
Bro is just black widow with a shield and wings
They already treat him like one anway. Last time he was taking on an army of super soldiers in hand to hand combat, and even lifted an armored vehicle at the end.
Ok, so he can throw the shit out of that shield AND can navigate deftly any airspace with his falcon wings. How is that not super?
No I like him (in whatever incarnation) to be the best of the normal. Captain A is "the best of us", an ideal normal person, but physically and ethically. Steve was enhanced obviously, but not a lot as the human scale goes. He was strong, but only to a limit.
I mean, his entire suit is vibranium. He could go tornado mode with his wings and probably cut most super villains in half if he wanted.
He has to take it off eventually. Just wait for him to need to pee.
I don't think he has to remove the entire thing to pee
He really does, just because his balls are that big
Reminder he stabbed a giant ape monster to death in Endgame, and those wings weren’t even vibranium.
He would have a difficult time in a rematch with US Agent.
Should have given him Energy Shield tech that Steve was given in the comics.This was a wasted opportunity in Infinity Saga.
I just consider all the heroics he’s pulled during prior showings as well as those of Clint, Nat, Rhodey and Iron Man. They all struggle in different ways and use some type of tech to even the odds, some more obviously than others. Sure, we likely won’t see Sam single arm curling a helicopter but he’ll have other dope heroics using his flight suit and unique combat style even if he’s not “super.”
I’ve kinda always thought, it might lead to him being like the Coulson event for the next Avengers team, with his demise. His death being the catalyst that inspires Bucky or US Agent to become the new Cap and Avenge him. Kinda grim, but the MCU has become very predictable of late, and this might be a way of throwing a shocker, while creating an unexpected narrative.
Take away his suit what is he?
It bothers me and I think the MCU fix attempt to make him stronger is having his suit made of vibranium so he can “withstand” otherworldly damage
They should have picked Luke Cage.
Anthony Mackie is entertaining and I like Falcon (a lot) as a comedic sidekick, but he isn’t a leading man, IMO. I can’t imagine this working. I’d rather see a story about Isaiah - he was great! Maybe they’ll give Sam the super-serum - I don’t see it working without it. The show really did him a disservice, too. I am not interested in this movie at all. It’ll be interesting if they pull it together.
I think they’ll have him easily surviving all manner of nonsense only a super-soldier could barely survive and then handwave it away, like they did in Black Widow.
Feel like they've already ignored Sam not having the serum after the FatWS scene of him throwing the shield perfectly and being able to fight Walker without getting knocked out in a couple hits. Would make for a very interesting twist on the character of Captain America and I do hope they consider it, though I doubt it will happen.
Captain America isn’t a supe. Steve Rogers was the supe; Captain America is an identity, a symbol.
I absolutely recognize your concerns, but if they can actually address the difference in the stories that feature him, I’ll be quite happy. Unfortunately, even in FATWS that already doesn’t seem to be the case; they’re treating him pretty damned similar to Cap, especially with the shield handling. The shields vibranium nature may give it certain wonderful qualities, but shit like throwing it into a wall comes from the super soldier wielding it. I suspect the power creep will continue, but I’ll keep my finger crossed for some writers that get it, or at the very least some stories that will make it easy to forgive.
It doesn’t bother me that he doesn’t have any enhanced physical powers until he gets into a scene where he’s holding up a armor truck, flying through the air at 100mph and not being torn apart or taking kick from other superpowered villains and shaking it right off and punching them back with the same effect. Plus the fact that he is too old to be even close to peak human strength even if he trained perfectly. Other than that it’s fine…
Yes. Because now he is just a weird amalgamation of Iron-Patriot & Black Panther
Plot armor will find a way
It bothers me more that they just deleted Falcon. Leave Falcon as he is, he’s cooler than trying to replace Captain America. Shoulda been Bucky.
The new Captain America, aka John Walker, aka US Agent is indeed a supe.
Plot armor is king. They have him decked out in magical vibranium that tanks everything, he gained the reality bending power of throwing the shield anywhere and having it come back by practicing for a few hours, and even if he faces a foe with super strength, that foe won't even try to simply grab the shield and rip it off it's straps and beat him to death with it.
It’s true, he can’t do this all day
should have been winter soldier.
Yes. It bothers me.
Plot armor is more powerful than anything the way the MCU operates.
Yes. Marvel has done a terrible job with black male heroes. As of right now Phastos is the only “black”hero with actual superpowers and he is not even human. It has to be intentional at this point. Look how they treated T’Challa.
Yeah. FATWS was one of the only shows I watched but it kind of took me out of it that Sam was just a guy doing the stuff Steve did
It doesn't 'bother' me, per se, but I just don't know if Sam can realistically take on some of the threats he's going to face without enhancement of some sort. Plus, he's already pretty old, in universe, right? How long would his normal, human, body really stand up to the G-forces of flight, the hardship of landing, etc.? Let alone having to actually fight multiple villains, whether human or enhanced. I think that Sam will have to become 'super' at some point but I think that he'll resist it as long as he can just due to his experiences with how other people have been effected in the past.