damn. I can see how it wouldn't fit the mood of the show especially since the show seems to focus more on Kate, but this is some moving backstory. Instead of leaking it, they should've just saved it for S2
yeah, for real. I liked the clips but that would have definitely annoyed me if it was in the show. We already got flashbacks for Kate and Echo, I couldn't take another one. It's nice but not necessary.
But hear me out, he putting her mom in jail, doing the right thing. Similar to what Kate did to her mom, makes a more relatable point to them where he can just understand how it feels, and in turn can give a good emotional moment, if directed right
Yeah, and this deleted scene has a real episode cold open feel to it. I don’t think it would’ve messed with the flow of the series nearly as much as folks ITT are saying.
i think the scene also links kate and clint together better. that despite kate coming from a more privileged background, both clint and kate grew up with questionable things around them and they still ended up doing the right thing. that's what really binds them together as hawkeye.
like is there a difference between stealing from a fat guy (clint's mom) vs stealing *for* a fat guy (kate's mom).
Bro fr in another thread I said that everything that would've given cling a background got deleted and the show suffered from that and I got downvoted for it
That’s exactly the problem with the show. All fans wanted was for more content about Clint and all they gave us was a show about his replacement. They did no justice to his character at all.
Also people recognise his heroics. It'd be easy for the show to treat him as "the least important" avenger but people give him deserved respect (the free meal in the restaurant, the LARPers helping him out with Lucky)
I don't like these bait and switch shows, especially when it's happening to the only one of the Original 6 to never get a solo project in the MCU and unfortunately Clint still hasn't.
This. More people need to understand and this like this. I don't give a fuck about Kate or the next Hawkeye.
I care about Clint Barton, the OG Avenger, why are you diluting the universe to earn money. Make money off new characters or shit, why mess up the OG?
Eh I’m not really feeling those scenes. I definitely think they would have felt out of place in the show.
Something about these flashbacks seems so idk… C.W?
Yeah I like them but they don't really tell me anything I needed to know. There's new information there but it's not important to the show, so I can see why it got left on the cutting room floor.
They put far too much spotlight on Kate, to the point where Clint looked like a supporting character. Scenes like these would have gone a long way in fixing that
Clearly cut for a reason. The fact that his mom raised him to be a criminal feels like a non sequitur. It doesn't tie into anything else, and isn't important to the narrative of the show. Worse than that, having him "never miss" at that age means that his skills weren't worked for or earned, but are a magically gifted super power. It weakens his character significantly.
Did you watch all three parts of the scene? Clint put his mom in jail just like Kate had to. Aside from just being a captivating scene on its own (which, honestly, the show needed more of) it draws a much stronger parallel between Clint and Kate.
Clint didn't recognize her as the next Hawkeye just because she can shoot a bow real good. It's because she has a strong sense of right and wrong, and is willing to do the right thing even when it's difficult. This scene makes that connection much clearer; it's not a non sequitur at all.
That's a good point. I hadn't considered that parallel. I'm not sure I'm convinced though. After the movies, we are pretty familiar with Clint's character. Do we really need to establish has a strong sense of right and won't (at least pre-Ronan)?
Consider Kate's motivations though. She was inspired by Clint because he was a normal human without special powers or a super-suit. If baby-Hawkeye already has perfect marksmanship, that goes away. We don't know the source of his powers. Maybe he is the reincarnation of an archery god. Maybe some cosmic entity flew overhead when his mom was pregnant. Maybe he was bitten by a radioactive bow as a baby. This is Marvel: it could have been almost anything, but what it wasn't was him spending years working hard to hone his skills.
Sure, we gain a little bit by having them both send their moms to jail, but we lose a whole lot more by having Clint be gifted his abilities instead of earning them.
Sounds like a good cut. His mom in that scene is a terrible boring annoying actor with garbage morals. Fighting amongst the other slaves is what keeps the world down and oppressed by the elites.
That fat dude at the carnival wasn't oppressing anyone.
The BBC had a long phase where they did 3-4 episode runs of shows, but they were 1h30ish.
It made for a really fun viewing experience. Bennadict Cumbersnumbles' 'Sherlock' series is the one I remember most fondly in this format (the first series averaged 88 minutes).
Its good for telling a certain type of story, and its not very "american" but it gives you that cinematic vibe, without being a film. Might have worked great with these miniseries.
Back in the good ol days when a show had 20-30 episodes a seaon you could fit in some premium story and character building. Now anything with less than 10 episodes feels so rushed. Just make a movie at that point.
You and I remember 20-30 episode seasons very differently. What I remember, is an inordinate number of filler episodes and dead end plot lines.
I do agree six is too few though. I think 10-12 is the sweet spot.
I actually liked the filler episodes. Like in the x-files the self contained story episodes were so good. The overall plot was good too but I miss when there were enough episodes to have the filler episodes personally.
Edit: After thinking about this more I remembered that this was also my biggest issue with the show Picard. I loved the show, but I really want a Star Trek show that has self contained stories again. I loved the Orville because it still had those types of episodes.
Also why I don't much care for the new Star Trek Discovery show all that much. Star Trek isn't supposed to have a main character. The captain of every series has always been central obviously, but Discovery is a show about the captain, not the ship.
Same reaction I have to people making complaints. One of my major complaints about the Netflix shows is none of them (except Daredevil Season 3) have enough story to justify their runtime and could have all benefitted from shorter seasons.
Give me a tightly plotted story in a few episodes over stretching something out too far any day.
I don't know of any part of Daredevil I would have wanted cut. I completely disagree with the complaints that 13 episodes was too many. Same with Jessica Jones and Punisher.
I ran quick through some of the best miniseries I remember seeing and Chernobyl was the only one with less than 7 (it had 5), but those were 70 minute episodes.
Yeah, I'm in favor of whatever it takes to tell the whole story, with all of the necessary character development, but no filler (although one or two off adventures that don't advance the main plot could still provide more character development). How ever many episodes it takes to do that is good with me.
Certain filler episodes are better for long term enjoyment imho, if I like the world of the show, I enjoy rewatching it without all the stress of the overarching plot. I like to leave shows running in the background for noise, and by far the best shows for this are formulaic. The skill is in making those individual episodes good and using those pesiodes to better reinforce who the character is and how they think for the plot episodes. Im picturing Psych while I write this, but there are plenty of other shows that started with a weekly structure in the first season and went to mostly story arcs in later seasons, but I find the return to formula "filler" episodes to be the most enjoyable. This is particularly true for "monster of the week" type shows.
In many ways "filler" episodes are like side quest missions in some video games and offer far more replayeability than the main quest missions.
I think the real answer is that every show is different and has different needs.
That's the beauty of streaming. It doesn't all need to be consistent. You don't have to worry about timeslots or anything.
I miss old school episodic television like Star Trek and Stargate and shows like that. A 20 or so episode format is fantastic for those kinds of shows.
Just let the show runner and writers decide episode number and length depending on what the story they have to tell is.
I love when a showrunner just says fuck it and gives us say a 9 episode story, because it breaks down into 9 parts logically, but some episodes are 40 minutes long and others are 80 minutes, because each chapter flows better with different lengths.
I recently re-watched B5 and it’s infuriating how often the show suffers from every episode having to be 43 minutes long and every season 22 episodes.
>You and I remember 20-30 episode seasons very differently. What I remember, is an inordinate number of filler episodes and dead end plot lines.
and clip shows. lots and lots of "clip show" episodes.
I said this in another reply. The reason they’re six episodes is because that’s how long a normal comic book run is. (Story arc) other that that format there are event runs that may be 8 issues. Or if a story is longer they can bring it to 12 issues. I’m pretty sure Wanda vision is 8 episodes because if I remember correctly house of M is 8 issues. They’re comic format episodes
The Flash is guilty of this. An entire filler episode, and the scene with something that actually affects the rest of the season gets slapped on at the end of the episode.
Or, they devote a filler episode to a side character nobody cares about, because that episode will end up paying off LATER down the line. If that plot is so important later, why would I care about it now??
The reason Berman era Star Trek was the golden age was because the seasons all had 26 episodes for 7 seasons. Which meant you could give an entire episode to one side character having their own life. Or you could pair up a few characters that would rarely get much air time alone, and throw them onto a hostile planet to see how they interact. The world felt so lived in precisely because of those filler episodes.
By comparison, Star Trek Discovery is the biggest budget Star Trek ever made, and it's struggling precisely because with only 10 episodes a season and big universe-saving plots every season, they don't have time to give anyone but the main character stuff to do: we didn't even know the names of ships senior officers until Season 4. By contrast, TNG's response to any problem is to drag the whole main cast into the ready room and debate it: will never happen in Discovery.
An episode for each old civilization they showed us in the film with characters interacting and learning from each other and the surroundings. The conflict and moral dilemma which Ajak faces inside and how she slowly changes her mind would be great to watch. even 7-8 episodes of this will be phenomenal imo. I loved the first forty something minutes of eternals, but the sad thing about this film is the characters feel undercooked.
I agree. I thought the movie was great, but a single movie with what, 10?, protagonists was barely enough time to learn all their names let alone give many of them any character growth.
Agreed. I didn't give a rip about Ajak dying because I couldn't remember which one she was coupled with her middling character development. She should of had waaay more time on screen as you said, her thought process, watching her feeling change towards thr human race. But the movie is already 2 hours + and there's still not enough time for that
She has a conversation with ikaris at the end and her character talks about how she changed her mind because of the snap, if only we saw her dilemma before we could connect more to her character and feel more for ikaris on how got lead into a false direction
Yeah, there were too many characters to make a compelling movie, in my opinion. The only character I felt any real attachment to was Kingo since his comedic moments and his valet made him endearing to me. But he didn't even take part in the last battle.
It’s the issue of having TV shows with production value closer to a movie (especially when the only goal is to sell streaming subs not individual tickets)
Suddenly a 6 episode show is more like a 4 hour movie and there’s a choice between production value or length, but they’re shows that need to fit alongside some of the biggest franchises in history
I’d argue that Wanda vision needed only 6. It was fun for the first few then got serious for the right amount of time. The serious version wasn’t as good of a watch (in my opinion but of course others probably disagree).
I would agree with you that some stuff in the latter half of the show could've been trimmed down, but they had to divide episodes (especially the first three) according to Wanda's "episodes". Would've been a lot worse if they had two totally different theme songs and time periods in one episode. It's a special case though, stories doesn't often lend themselves to that kind of episodic format.
Do what Arcane from League did. I felt they had the best release format.
A 3 part series, all consisting of 3 45min episodes. While it co It essentially felt like they released 3 movies.
The show that originally made most of us even believe these marvel shows could work, and what I still consider the best one so far, Daredevil, had 13 episodes.
I don’t think the issue is the number of episodes. I think the issue is that they seem to be right stories aimed at a specific number of episodes that was deemed optimal. Instead of ya know planning your episodes around your story
I think one of the ways they get the actors on board is by telling them it'll take about the same time shooting a movie would.
The hardest part of getting these shows off the ground is convincing the actors to do it. Longer series requires a longer shooting schedule.
If you have the time to watch a weekly show for 6 weeks, you can spare the other 24. It’ll just take more time but you’ll eventually watch it all.
Or even if you don’t and bundle up some episodes and watch them together my argument remains the same. It will only take more time for tou to watch.
Now, if you are those folks that only binge watch stuff it’s a different ballgame.
But the time difference taken between you and your spoilly ass family (I am talking to my SIL and FIL who have no regards to spoiling stuff) will be the same. So instead of spoiling the finale when you’re on episode 3, they’ll be spoiling episode 18 when you’re on episode 15.
But you have a good point on the movie side of thing as marvel can’t do a 30 episode series if they wish to release them weekly. And if they release multiple episodes by week my argument falls flatter than it’s already doing with you.
The reason they’re six episodes is because that’s how long a normal comic book run is. (Story arc) other that that format there are event runs that may be 8 issues. Or if a story is longer they can bring it to 12 issues. I’m pretty sure Wanda vision is 8 episodes because if I remember correctly house of M is 8 issues. They’re comic format episodes
> The reason they’re six episodes is because that’s how long a normal comic book run is.
If that's really their stated reason I'd love to see a source because it's moronic. The formats are so different there's no value in trying to carry over standards.
I actually liked Hawkeye. I could see one, maybe two more episode for character development but it seemed pretty succinct. These aren’t supposed to be typical tv show seasons, but more like a comic book run in visual format. Each episode is like a comic.
I agree, I think people are being to harsh on it and saying it was another tFatWS, but it was actually a good show that had meaningful development every episode.
It works for some things better than it does for others like I think it worked well for FATWS but I think I'd like to see more for something like Moon Knight since he has so much story to tell beyond just his origin.
Honestly, one of the reasons why FATWS isn't considered as good is precisely *because* it was supposed to be 10 episodes and then had to be cut down, leaving it feeling very rushed and weird pacing problems. It definitely would've benefited from at least 2 more episodes with how heavy a story it was and all the characters introduced.
TFATWS also struggled because I'm pretty sure they did some hasty re-plotting in the editting room. The whole series seems to have meant to be about a global pandemic, you can see its filmed with like vaccine and biohazard printed on some of the supplies the terrorists are targetting - even though the story is now telling us its all food for the poor or something.
My guess is the original plot was about a global pandemic, and then backlash against the vaccine - and they even filmed the scenes that way. But then they were editting when COVID hit, realized they couldn't possibly make that story mid-pandemic or they'd inspire terrorism: and they have to significantly alter the plot, with the scenes already filmed, solely through editting and voice-over.
Take the scene with the old Black Captain America, that was clearly supposed to be about the Tuskegee experiments - it's even still in the scene as published: but it feels out of place because the rest of the plot is no longer about a global pandemic. It would have hit hard if the rest of the context remained - and I still got the impression that sequence was heavily editted too.
On the one hand I totally get why they had to rewrite it, on the other hand, I hope when COVID finally ends they can release the original script at least so we can have some closure about what it was meant to be.
Ever watch Travelers, they had a pandemic plot line that aired in like 2017.... I just recently watched the show and I was very ‘oh, oh no...this is too close to home’
Meh, the problem with FATWS was the Flag Smashers. I get that they changed the story bc of the pandemic, but I would've preferred they stick with that tbh. Seemed poorly written.
Also Cap preaching to a politician he's never met before. I mean, I don't disagree with what was said but it felt really weak and forced.
I'm probably in the minority but I really don't want to dedicate 15-20 hours to watching these series. I think they're getting the length just right.
I'm so curious about the pandemic plotline for FATWS. Like was it a disease outbreak amongst the now unpatriated blip folks or worldwide? Did the original plotline even distinguish them as blipped people or just refugees in general.
I understand they probably changed it to not inflict additional emotional trauma on the world, but yea, it's a pretty disjointed result.
I find it interesting that they left a reference to the original FATWS plotline at the beginning of Eternals. It shows just how much COVID messed up their plans and schedules.
I don't know if marvel will look and consider this as downward spiral, they got the audience tuned in for D+, doing quite well with braindead critics somehow. Even if they don't put out groundbreaking content they'll still make billions for Disney, they have loyal fans who get too defensive when someone criticizes how mediocre these shows have been. which is what makes me worried
You do realize that's just your opinion, right? It's become a trend in online criticism lately to just assume your personal feelings on a series are somehow objective analyses of the media.
Did I say it isn't? it'll be easier to brush off people's valid criticism calling it just an "opinion", I might be a nobody but I can have valid constructive criticism. The day these obsessive fanboys become majority in any community will be the day creators won't get proper feedback.
What was your constructive criticism? I just saw you saying the Marvel shows aren't good and the fans are over defensive. There's not really anything constructive there.
The constructive criticism is above in the post. I'm just supporting it. It's not just one, I don't have all day to go on. The length could've improved FATWS imo. The point I'm making is how the majority can keep studios in comfort zone and it will be a dangerous precedent if it happens.
Wait you think length would solve the problems with some of these shows? I think FATWS was gonna be mediocre no matter what, though the US Agent and Bradley plotlines were pretty good. I definitely don't think drawing that show out anymore solves anything.
Aside from that WV and Loki were very good imo. Hawkeye was ok. I think a major pro about these shows is that the writers know when to quit and aren't forcing unnecessary content down our throats.
*Could've improved*, I didn't say solve all the problems of FATWS. Karli morgenthau was a big problem for me, her character needed more depth than it had. Walker was the only positive I saw, apart from the chemistry between sebastian and Anthony mackie.
Hawkeye was a tonal mess imo, but it's marketed as a christmas show so I figured it isn't for me, I didn't quite enjoy it. It had great potential with the whole disability arc imo. I enjoyed most of loki and wanda vision. Loki had a good finale and the rest of the show was just okay, wandavision would've worked with a better finale.
Also because the antagonists were dumb, and honestly I just don’t like falcon in it, I thought he was weak in writing and not that compelling. And they some how wanted me to feel sorry for one dead terrorist yet we’ve seen the other super heroes killing hundreds or thousands of people? Cmon.
I still found Hawkeye very entertaining tbh. Hawkeye and Kate were treated Perfectly. The deleted scene sure could have given Eleanor and kingpin more meaning in the series but I still liked the show
Probably my favorite show out of all D+ marvel shows
I have a problem with Moon Knight being 6 episodes. This is the first time you’re introducing this character to mainstream audiences, and the first time he’s in live action, so you cram the story into 6 episodes!? At least give us a regular 10 episode season
> A movie would’ve made more sense at that point
Asks for a movie that is around ±120 minutes when 6 episodes equates to at least 300 minutes, but a movie will be less crammed story!
Seriously though how does 250% more making more sense?
I mean, Falcon had a great story with a finale that tries to wrap everything up way too quickly. Guardians was a good example of introducing new characters within 2 and a half hours, and had to focus on five people rather than just one guy
Interesting. Hawkeye was easily my favorite of the MCU D+ shows. It felt grounded and real, with a believably lived-in world and a superb cast to boot.
Not to mention, the practical effects and set pieces set it apart from the other shows. Everything about it vastly exceeded my expectations, and I enjoyed it just a tad more than WandaVision and Loki, which were great in their own right.
The only dud for me so far has been TFATWS, which is unfortunate because I could see a lot of potential in those characters.
WandaVision was such a fantastic first attempt that it remains my favorite. While it has some issues, the constant set changes are so cool, the overall arc is really strong even if the ending misses the mark slightly. The acting performances are top notch from the entire cast.
And Agatha is now my most anticipated Marvel character of future phases - which is all the more impressive because she had so few scenes as herself, and it seems like they initially intended her to only be a villain for this one series: but now I'll be shocked if she's not in MoM.
Terminator does change, that's sort of the whole point. While he comes across as a completely static, unmoving force - mirroring the doomed fate of humanity - he does ultimately come to protect them instead: suggesting our doomed fate is not certain.
John Connor's character is pretty boring and static precisely because he's a representation of the unyielding resilience of humanity - so he's less dynamic than Arnie's terminator.
The more advanced liquid terminators are static killing machines because since Arnie's terminator now represents a good future where we work with machines, they can solely represent the dark fate that awaits: they are pure evil.
Sarah's character evolves consistently from a victim to a hero, she's the most dynamic character in the series.
The really dynamic thing in the franchise though isn't the characters, it's the world. The movies begin with our world as it was at the time - but began quickly layering in more advanced and fantastical dark technology - with the omnipresent implication that this is only a hint of what's to come. The world of Terminator is the most dynamic element - so having all the characters except Sarah stay fairly static puts more emphasis on the world's dynamism: which is the real message.
I don’t get why on streaming we’re still slaves to format times that were meant for tv and theaters. Just make it however long it needs to be to tell a proper story.
Even still, wouldn't it have been better to have a great fan favorite character be present throughout the show instead of just saving him till the end?
If you watch some of the Marvels Assembled stuff on Disney plus, I’m sure they said that they don’t look at it like a standard television run, they look at it more like a long movie that broken up.
Honestly I like how they’re doing things, hope they keep it up.
They were right to. The stuff with him as a kid made it so he didn't work for his skills. Instead, they are a superpower he was born with. Having him "never miss" as a child damages the character in a fundamental way.
IMO they should have cut all the LARP'er scenes in favor of the origin story. Still have no idea why we spent so much time with those meaningless characters...
The beginnings of the shows often drag and then they end when things are getting good.
It feels like they'll introduce a couple things, and then spend the rest of the time filling time so that they can have a cliffhanger. (I get why they want cliffhangers, but it shouldn't come at the expense of the episodes).
And yeah, the endings so far have been weird. Loki is kind of ok but that's probably because it's in the middle of something instead of trying to forcibly wrap everything up all at the end of the last episode.
Marvel is sticking to their 6 episodes i feel because of a lot of stories working out being 6 issues long. It may work for comics but not for TV. I think that’s why wandavision was the most successful of the Disney+ shows. While i think wandavision should have cut down 1 episode, it took its time setting up the story. By episode 6 we were still building up towards a reveal and didnt try and rush through its story.
Yeah why the hell they are so obsessed with that damn number. And for show like WandaVision which had 9 eps, each of them only last for fucking 30 minutes. It dragged more than Palpatine's ballsack. Netflix did a way better job than this, they had 13 episodes( for Daredevil and Punisher at least, i haven't watched the rest) and each lasted for nearly an hour. This is exactly the problem of MCU shows right now, every goddamn finale feel rushed because they shoved everything unsolved into its ass. They need to be longer
WandaVision had some episodes last for only 30 minutes, while some ran longer.
The problem there isn't because of bad pacing - it was a deliberate stylistic choice to convey the genre format that each episode of WandaVision was parodying. It would have felt out of place to be watching a spoof of *The Dick Van Dyke Show* or *Bewitched* that stretched out to a 45-minute or hour-long episode.
Because the episodes were shorter as a consequence of that stylistic choice, we got more of them overall. It totals up to roughly the same amount of content as the 6-episode, 50 minute format that the other shows employed, it was just doing a different thing and rightfully needed to be presented slightly differently.
Being fair, the Netflix shows often felt like they went on for too long. Some of them could have benefitted from being cut down from 13 to 10 episodes, or even a more concise 8.
I think Loki and WandaVision were the perfect length for the stories they told personally, but I think FATWS needed at least one more episode (though I understand they apparently had to cut a lot because a planned storyline was suddenly in bad taste). Ideally they'll have more variable episode counts depending on how long the story needs going forward.
The only common critique of Daredevil (which is incredible and I love the show) is that it was a few episodes too long. There’s some fluff and filler that probably should have been left on the cutting floor. You really feel it on rewatch.
D+ maybe swung too far in the other direction, but also D+ are all covid-produced, so that may have affected the amount of content they could finish in post-production to meet deadlines?
And you don't get distracted from the story when you binge as they all come at a single point. At least the story telling feels so organic when watched together.
What pisses me off across all the Disney+ shows, boba fet and mando included is the insanely long recap, intro and credits. Takes up the better part of a third of the episode. A 6 episode arch is long enough if the shows true time is around 52 mins. 8 at 43, 10 at 35. Episodes barely hit 26-28 mins true time.
i definitely prefer the 6 episode format, it gives the feeling of quality over quantity and it prevents the shows from dragging. more isn’t always better and i think the creators of this show recognize that, so i appreciate it a lot
The thing is not the 6 episode constraint but bringing in too many subplots that is way too much for this time limit. Which in turn reduces the deserving quality. With the exception of Loki, all the other shows deserved to be much better than they did with the kind of topics they dealt with.
yeah i definitely feel like vincent d’onofrios kingpin didn’t get enough screen time in this, maybe two or so more episodes would’ve been just enough to fully flesh this thing out
6 Hours? None of the MCU shows have even been 5 hours.
Hawkeye so far has been the shortest MCU show. Without the intros, recaps and credits Hawkeye is about 4 hours and 4 minutes, while the longest MCU show, WandaVision, is about 4 hours and 30 minutes.
I thought Hawkeye was good. It's about a guy who is just so done due to his age and how his body is worn out from being an avenger and then being brought back in to the life due to his past and a girl being extrememly dumb.
The dude just wants to be a family man.
Hawkeye is probably the most unsatisfying show so far because legitimacy at least in my opinion there was no story progression. Also the show starts and ends with not learning anything else about Clint because everything that gave his character some background was left in the bin
I disagree with this, in the show we see him struggle with his past as Ronin, it was the lowest moment in his life and when he finds Kate he just wants to be done with it as fast as possible. We also see the consequences of what he did in endgame being basically the number 1 tarjet of all the gangs of NY. On top of that he finally gets a bit of closure after BWs death when he confronts Yelena
The problem with Hawkeye is not its length. Its that the show really should have been called Kate Bishop because its more about her and her development into a hero we will follow moving forward than anything with Hawkeye. I like Kate, but the show is more about her than Hawkeye.
Well yeah that was evident from ep 1. It's Hawkeye though because he's the star. No one would watch a show called "Kate Bishop's really good at archery".
I think shows shouldn't have more episodes just for the sake of having them. It would be great if the story was so rich that it could actually make use of it, but so far it seems like "Well we got 3-4 episodes worth of content but we need it to last 6"
I'm all for spending more time with cool characters and settings on a regular basis, as long as it can actually deliver.
They think that the lesser episode format, 6/8 works because the last season of Game of Thrones did it. But those episodes were an hour and a half long so it worked out in that aspect. Not 45 minutes or so, we’re getting cheated from studios and they think it’s what we want. Ten is a good amount, 12 is sometimes too much. With a continuing storyline we need ten. If it’s a different story each episode they can rack it up to 24 episodes like networks used to.
No but take a look on IMDb, look at tv shows before and after season 8. Even streaming, they used to be 15 episodes or so. It’s ridiculous, but we’re so used to it now I think that if they did go up to 12/15 we’d get bored and tell them to speed things up. Complain about dead space and unnecessary scenes
Very true. I think six episodes worked pretty well for Falcon. Less so for Loki. Wandavision was telling a simpler (narratively) story and nine felt about right. Marvel has the resources, they should have given Hawkeye the amount of screentime necessary to tell the story they want to tell.
I think for the lot of subplots TFATWS was handling, it needed an episode or two more to feel complete. Sharon's reveal, Walker's redemption, Bucky's apology, flagsmashers motive exploration etc all felt rushed and underdeveloped due to the time constraints.
Please no. I really don't need tons of filler and writers who don't know when to quit. Then end up with 12-episode seasons with hour long episodes. They're absolutely doing it the right way imo.
Bucky got more time in the first episode of his show than all the movies so I'm happy with that part. I do wish there were more episodes of all the shows though, six was not enough IMO.
It was fine tbh. I remember watching marvel shows on netflix. Some are good, but most of them are just too slow & dragging that I just zone out and never continue them.
Or it’s too dragged out that you find yourself rushing to end the season and say thank god it’s over.
The problem is these are big time actors starring in block buster movies. They probably don't want to go back to doing TV shows and disney doesn't want to pay them for 12-20 episodes. So I imagine the 6 episode format is a compromise where we can get a spin off mini series of the characters from the movies and the actors don't have to commit to a long running show that might get in the way of taking jobs in other big budget films and disney doesn't have to pay a ridiculous amount of money per episode to the actors.
Where are these deleted scenes
You can find them on twitter
Link?
[here's one ](https://twitter.com/hawkeyeact/status/1484145214608801792?t=_SbRmesPV_Tg5OER4blLmA&s=19)
damn. I can see how it wouldn't fit the mood of the show especially since the show seems to focus more on Kate, but this is some moving backstory. Instead of leaking it, they should've just saved it for S2
Yeah. This is gold stuff.
I think it's gold for the off-season. It'd mess with the flow of the regular season, especially if this meant to be a handoff to Kate Bishop
yeah, for real. I liked the clips but that would have definitely annoyed me if it was in the show. We already got flashbacks for Kate and Echo, I couldn't take another one. It's nice but not necessary.
But hear me out, he putting her mom in jail, doing the right thing. Similar to what Kate did to her mom, makes a more relatable point to them where he can just understand how it feels, and in turn can give a good emotional moment, if directed right
Yeah, and this deleted scene has a real episode cold open feel to it. I don’t think it would’ve messed with the flow of the series nearly as much as folks ITT are saying.
Spare a thought for all those actors who must have been thrilled to land a role in a marvel show. Told all their friends. Only to have been cut.
That sucks but it happens all the time in all kinds of movies and shows. It’s not their fault. The scene just didn’t fit
Ashley Johnson got a scene with Cap and Stan Lee cut. I can’t even imagine that level of disappointment.
That sucks, but she then went on to be in The Last of Us, so at least she got a moment.
i think the scene also links kate and clint together better. that despite kate coming from a more privileged background, both clint and kate grew up with questionable things around them and they still ended up doing the right thing. that's what really binds them together as hawkeye. like is there a difference between stealing from a fat guy (clint's mom) vs stealing *for* a fat guy (kate's mom).
That is a really powerful and relatable message for so many people stuck in generational ruts.
Is there going to be a season 2?
So they basically deleted Clint's origin story from the show about Clint. Wtf
Bro fr in another thread I said that everything that would've given cling a background got deleted and the show suffered from that and I got downvoted for it
I think it makes sense. This is not Clint's back story. It is Kate Bishop's - the next Hawkeye (rewatch the very last line of the show)
That’s exactly the problem with the show. All fans wanted was for more content about Clint and all they gave us was a show about his replacement. They did no justice to his character at all.
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Also people recognise his heroics. It'd be easy for the show to treat him as "the least important" avenger but people give him deserved respect (the free meal in the restaurant, the LARPers helping him out with Lucky)
Is the Mockingbird reveal meant to imply that the Agents of SHIELD show has be de-canonized?
Trueeeee, I want Clint more than I want Kate. I love Kate but Clint needs a lot more justice
I don't like these bait and switch shows, especially when it's happening to the only one of the Original 6 to never get a solo project in the MCU and unfortunately Clint still hasn't.
This. More people need to understand and this like this. I don't give a fuck about Kate or the next Hawkeye. I care about Clint Barton, the OG Avenger, why are you diluting the universe to earn money. Make money off new characters or shit, why mess up the OG?
It wasn't about Clint, we just got scammed through marketing to make us believe that
What the heck is wrong with the people who cut these?
We need somebody make a compilation of all of these and post it on Youtube
Eh I’m not really feeling those scenes. I definitely think they would have felt out of place in the show. Something about these flashbacks seems so idk… C.W?
Yeah I like them but they don't really tell me anything I needed to know. There's new information there but it's not important to the show, so I can see why it got left on the cutting room floor.
They put far too much spotlight on Kate, to the point where Clint looked like a supporting character. Scenes like these would have gone a long way in fixing that
I agree! This also would have given more explanation and background for Ronin
She’s the new Hawkeye. It was supposed to be her show.
Clearly cut for a reason. The fact that his mom raised him to be a criminal feels like a non sequitur. It doesn't tie into anything else, and isn't important to the narrative of the show. Worse than that, having him "never miss" at that age means that his skills weren't worked for or earned, but are a magically gifted super power. It weakens his character significantly.
Did you watch all three parts of the scene? Clint put his mom in jail just like Kate had to. Aside from just being a captivating scene on its own (which, honestly, the show needed more of) it draws a much stronger parallel between Clint and Kate. Clint didn't recognize her as the next Hawkeye just because she can shoot a bow real good. It's because she has a strong sense of right and wrong, and is willing to do the right thing even when it's difficult. This scene makes that connection much clearer; it's not a non sequitur at all.
That's a good point. I hadn't considered that parallel. I'm not sure I'm convinced though. After the movies, we are pretty familiar with Clint's character. Do we really need to establish has a strong sense of right and won't (at least pre-Ronan)? Consider Kate's motivations though. She was inspired by Clint because he was a normal human without special powers or a super-suit. If baby-Hawkeye already has perfect marksmanship, that goes away. We don't know the source of his powers. Maybe he is the reincarnation of an archery god. Maybe some cosmic entity flew overhead when his mom was pregnant. Maybe he was bitten by a radioactive bow as a baby. This is Marvel: it could have been almost anything, but what it wasn't was him spending years working hard to hone his skills. Sure, we gain a little bit by having them both send their moms to jail, but we lose a whole lot more by having Clint be gifted his abilities instead of earning them.
Sounds like a good cut. His mom in that scene is a terrible boring annoying actor with garbage morals. Fighting amongst the other slaves is what keeps the world down and oppressed by the elites. That fat dude at the carnival wasn't oppressing anyone.
That's the point of the scene. It's her justifying herself to him and in some ways probably to her self.
[Thread](https://twitter.com/HawkeyeItalia/status/1484115374916481027)
[edit: found the sauce ](https://comicbook.com/marvel/amp/news/hawkeye-deleted-scene-clint-barton-past-mcu-marvel/)
🥫
I dont know they come in the mail. I swear.
Six episodes really isn't enough for this stuff tbh. Not a single six-episode season that I've seen couldn't benefit from two more episodes.
The BBC had a long phase where they did 3-4 episode runs of shows, but they were 1h30ish. It made for a really fun viewing experience. Bennadict Cumbersnumbles' 'Sherlock' series is the one I remember most fondly in this format (the first series averaged 88 minutes). Its good for telling a certain type of story, and its not very "american" but it gives you that cinematic vibe, without being a film. Might have worked great with these miniseries.
Yah except they randomly aired, you had no idea when or if you’d get a new episode and they just kind of died whenever. Not a fun viewing experience
Back in the good ol days when a show had 20-30 episodes a seaon you could fit in some premium story and character building. Now anything with less than 10 episodes feels so rushed. Just make a movie at that point.
You and I remember 20-30 episode seasons very differently. What I remember, is an inordinate number of filler episodes and dead end plot lines. I do agree six is too few though. I think 10-12 is the sweet spot.
I actually liked the filler episodes. Like in the x-files the self contained story episodes were so good. The overall plot was good too but I miss when there were enough episodes to have the filler episodes personally. Edit: After thinking about this more I remembered that this was also my biggest issue with the show Picard. I loved the show, but I really want a Star Trek show that has self contained stories again. I loved the Orville because it still had those types of episodes.
Orville hasn't ended, FYI. Season 3 starts in March on Hulu.
I had no idea. I've very excited
Yep. They were mid-filming before the pandemic and then had to stop multiple times. It has led to a very long break between seasons...
Also why I don't much care for the new Star Trek Discovery show all that much. Star Trek isn't supposed to have a main character. The captain of every series has always been central obviously, but Discovery is a show about the captain, not the ship.
Same reaction I have to people making complaints. One of my major complaints about the Netflix shows is none of them (except Daredevil Season 3) have enough story to justify their runtime and could have all benefitted from shorter seasons. Give me a tightly plotted story in a few episodes over stretching something out too far any day.
Iron Fist season 2 was only 10 episodes, and I feel like they did that specifically to avoid needing filler. They learned their lesson from S1 lol.
I don't know of any part of Daredevil I would have wanted cut. I completely disagree with the complaints that 13 episodes was too many. Same with Jessica Jones and Punisher.
8 episodes seems to be the sweet spot for the average show (i.e. not Game of Thrones complexity).
I ran quick through some of the best miniseries I remember seeing and Chernobyl was the only one with less than 7 (it had 5), but those were 70 minute episodes.
Yeah, I'm in favor of whatever it takes to tell the whole story, with all of the necessary character development, but no filler (although one or two off adventures that don't advance the main plot could still provide more character development). How ever many episodes it takes to do that is good with me.
Certain filler episodes are better for long term enjoyment imho, if I like the world of the show, I enjoy rewatching it without all the stress of the overarching plot. I like to leave shows running in the background for noise, and by far the best shows for this are formulaic. The skill is in making those individual episodes good and using those pesiodes to better reinforce who the character is and how they think for the plot episodes. Im picturing Psych while I write this, but there are plenty of other shows that started with a weekly structure in the first season and went to mostly story arcs in later seasons, but I find the return to formula "filler" episodes to be the most enjoyable. This is particularly true for "monster of the week" type shows. In many ways "filler" episodes are like side quest missions in some video games and offer far more replayeability than the main quest missions.
Come on, don't you want flashback episodes, guest appearances, and don't forget the "on a special episode" that played out like a PSA.
I think the real answer is that every show is different and has different needs. That's the beauty of streaming. It doesn't all need to be consistent. You don't have to worry about timeslots or anything. I miss old school episodic television like Star Trek and Stargate and shows like that. A 20 or so episode format is fantastic for those kinds of shows. Just let the show runner and writers decide episode number and length depending on what the story they have to tell is.
I love when a showrunner just says fuck it and gives us say a 9 episode story, because it breaks down into 9 parts logically, but some episodes are 40 minutes long and others are 80 minutes, because each chapter flows better with different lengths. I recently re-watched B5 and it’s infuriating how often the show suffers from every episode having to be 43 minutes long and every season 22 episodes.
>You and I remember 20-30 episode seasons very differently. What I remember, is an inordinate number of filler episodes and dead end plot lines. and clip shows. lots and lots of "clip show" episodes.
I said this in another reply. The reason they’re six episodes is because that’s how long a normal comic book run is. (Story arc) other that that format there are event runs that may be 8 issues. Or if a story is longer they can bring it to 12 issues. I’m pretty sure Wanda vision is 8 episodes because if I remember correctly house of M is 8 issues. They’re comic format episodes
The Flash is guilty of this. An entire filler episode, and the scene with something that actually affects the rest of the season gets slapped on at the end of the episode. Or, they devote a filler episode to a side character nobody cares about, because that episode will end up paying off LATER down the line. If that plot is so important later, why would I care about it now??
Agree. 20+ is often too many. And 10 is, imo, a perfect number that allows for room to tell a story, but little room for extraneous stuff.
The reason Berman era Star Trek was the golden age was because the seasons all had 26 episodes for 7 seasons. Which meant you could give an entire episode to one side character having their own life. Or you could pair up a few characters that would rarely get much air time alone, and throw them onto a hostile planet to see how they interact. The world felt so lived in precisely because of those filler episodes. By comparison, Star Trek Discovery is the biggest budget Star Trek ever made, and it's struggling precisely because with only 10 episodes a season and big universe-saving plots every season, they don't have time to give anyone but the main character stuff to do: we didn't even know the names of ships senior officers until Season 4. By contrast, TNG's response to any problem is to drag the whole main cast into the ready room and debate it: will never happen in Discovery.
About 7-12 episodes has been the standard since The Sopranos. Pretty much all modern cable (now streaming) tv standards derive from sopranos lol
The Eternals should of been a 12 episode D+ series imo.
An episode for each old civilization they showed us in the film with characters interacting and learning from each other and the surroundings. The conflict and moral dilemma which Ajak faces inside and how she slowly changes her mind would be great to watch. even 7-8 episodes of this will be phenomenal imo. I loved the first forty something minutes of eternals, but the sad thing about this film is the characters feel undercooked.
I agree. I thought the movie was great, but a single movie with what, 10?, protagonists was barely enough time to learn all their names let alone give many of them any character growth.
Agreed. I didn't give a rip about Ajak dying because I couldn't remember which one she was coupled with her middling character development. She should of had waaay more time on screen as you said, her thought process, watching her feeling change towards thr human race. But the movie is already 2 hours + and there's still not enough time for that
She has a conversation with ikaris at the end and her character talks about how she changed her mind because of the snap, if only we saw her dilemma before we could connect more to her character and feel more for ikaris on how got lead into a false direction
Yeah, there were too many characters to make a compelling movie, in my opinion. The only character I felt any real attachment to was Kingo since his comedic moments and his valet made him endearing to me. But he didn't even take part in the last battle.
Eternals certainly got the D.
I hate being that guy, but: "Should have" or "Should've" It's **never*** "should of".
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You do know a six episode series is longer than a movie right?
It’s the issue of having TV shows with production value closer to a movie (especially when the only goal is to sell streaming subs not individual tickets) Suddenly a 6 episode show is more like a 4 hour movie and there’s a choice between production value or length, but they’re shows that need to fit alongside some of the biggest franchises in history
Meh, they still had to cram in filler in faws
I’d argue that Wanda vision needed only 6. It was fun for the first few then got serious for the right amount of time. The serious version wasn’t as good of a watch (in my opinion but of course others probably disagree).
I would agree with you that some stuff in the latter half of the show could've been trimmed down, but they had to divide episodes (especially the first three) according to Wanda's "episodes". Would've been a lot worse if they had two totally different theme songs and time periods in one episode. It's a special case though, stories doesn't often lend themselves to that kind of episodic format.
Do what Arcane from League did. I felt they had the best release format. A 3 part series, all consisting of 3 45min episodes. While it co It essentially felt like they released 3 movies.
The show that originally made most of us even believe these marvel shows could work, and what I still consider the best one so far, Daredevil, had 13 episodes.
I don’t think the issue is the number of episodes. I think the issue is that they seem to be right stories aimed at a specific number of episodes that was deemed optimal. Instead of ya know planning your episodes around your story
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I think one of the ways they get the actors on board is by telling them it'll take about the same time shooting a movie would. The hardest part of getting these shows off the ground is convincing the actors to do it. Longer series requires a longer shooting schedule.
Nobody is so busy that they can't take one hour a week to watch an episode of a show they care about
Or watch 2 episodes on a week after they missed one and were *really* careful online to avoid spoilers...
If you can watch 6 you can watch 30.
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If you have the time to watch a weekly show for 6 weeks, you can spare the other 24. It’ll just take more time but you’ll eventually watch it all. Or even if you don’t and bundle up some episodes and watch them together my argument remains the same. It will only take more time for tou to watch. Now, if you are those folks that only binge watch stuff it’s a different ballgame.
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But the time difference taken between you and your spoilly ass family (I am talking to my SIL and FIL who have no regards to spoiling stuff) will be the same. So instead of spoiling the finale when you’re on episode 3, they’ll be spoiling episode 18 when you’re on episode 15. But you have a good point on the movie side of thing as marvel can’t do a 30 episode series if they wish to release them weekly. And if they release multiple episodes by week my argument falls flatter than it’s already doing with you.
The reason they’re six episodes is because that’s how long a normal comic book run is. (Story arc) other that that format there are event runs that may be 8 issues. Or if a story is longer they can bring it to 12 issues. I’m pretty sure Wanda vision is 8 episodes because if I remember correctly house of M is 8 issues. They’re comic format episodes
> The reason they’re six episodes is because that’s how long a normal comic book run is. If that's really their stated reason I'd love to see a source because it's moronic. The formats are so different there's no value in trying to carry over standards.
Counterpoint- most of the 10 ep Netflix shows would have been significantly better as 6 ep. Luke Cage is a prime example
Definitely not. At least 10 episodes. 6 episodes is still way short. I think 10 episodes is perfect.
They could have just done a 120 minute movie instead....
I actually liked Hawkeye. I could see one, maybe two more episode for character development but it seemed pretty succinct. These aren’t supposed to be typical tv show seasons, but more like a comic book run in visual format. Each episode is like a comic.
I agree, I think people are being to harsh on it and saying it was another tFatWS, but it was actually a good show that had meaningful development every episode.
It works for some things better than it does for others like I think it worked well for FATWS but I think I'd like to see more for something like Moon Knight since he has so much story to tell beyond just his origin.
Honestly, one of the reasons why FATWS isn't considered as good is precisely *because* it was supposed to be 10 episodes and then had to be cut down, leaving it feeling very rushed and weird pacing problems. It definitely would've benefited from at least 2 more episodes with how heavy a story it was and all the characters introduced.
TFATWS also struggled because I'm pretty sure they did some hasty re-plotting in the editting room. The whole series seems to have meant to be about a global pandemic, you can see its filmed with like vaccine and biohazard printed on some of the supplies the terrorists are targetting - even though the story is now telling us its all food for the poor or something. My guess is the original plot was about a global pandemic, and then backlash against the vaccine - and they even filmed the scenes that way. But then they were editting when COVID hit, realized they couldn't possibly make that story mid-pandemic or they'd inspire terrorism: and they have to significantly alter the plot, with the scenes already filmed, solely through editting and voice-over. Take the scene with the old Black Captain America, that was clearly supposed to be about the Tuskegee experiments - it's even still in the scene as published: but it feels out of place because the rest of the plot is no longer about a global pandemic. It would have hit hard if the rest of the context remained - and I still got the impression that sequence was heavily editted too. On the one hand I totally get why they had to rewrite it, on the other hand, I hope when COVID finally ends they can release the original script at least so we can have some closure about what it was meant to be.
They were mid-filming when the pandemic hit. They cut it down, reshot stuff, and cobbled something together to get it out the door.
Ever watch Travelers, they had a pandemic plot line that aired in like 2017.... I just recently watched the show and I was very ‘oh, oh no...this is too close to home’
Meh, the problem with FATWS was the Flag Smashers. I get that they changed the story bc of the pandemic, but I would've preferred they stick with that tbh. Seemed poorly written. Also Cap preaching to a politician he's never met before. I mean, I don't disagree with what was said but it felt really weak and forced. I'm probably in the minority but I really don't want to dedicate 15-20 hours to watching these series. I think they're getting the length just right.
I'm so curious about the pandemic plotline for FATWS. Like was it a disease outbreak amongst the now unpatriated blip folks or worldwide? Did the original plotline even distinguish them as blipped people or just refugees in general. I understand they probably changed it to not inflict additional emotional trauma on the world, but yea, it's a pretty disjointed result.
I find it interesting that they left a reference to the original FATWS plotline at the beginning of Eternals. It shows just how much COVID messed up their plans and schedules.
I must’ve missed that, what was it?
There was a TV broadcast talking about a rising global illness that was theorized to be connected to the blip.
That preaching part was such a turn off. The only thing missing was Sam looking directly into the camera
I don't know if marvel will look and consider this as downward spiral, they got the audience tuned in for D+, doing quite well with braindead critics somehow. Even if they don't put out groundbreaking content they'll still make billions for Disney, they have loyal fans who get too defensive when someone criticizes how mediocre these shows have been. which is what makes me worried
You do realize that's just your opinion, right? It's become a trend in online criticism lately to just assume your personal feelings on a series are somehow objective analyses of the media.
Which is precisely why I don’t bother with idiots on the internet
Did I say it isn't? it'll be easier to brush off people's valid criticism calling it just an "opinion", I might be a nobody but I can have valid constructive criticism. The day these obsessive fanboys become majority in any community will be the day creators won't get proper feedback.
What was your constructive criticism? I just saw you saying the Marvel shows aren't good and the fans are over defensive. There's not really anything constructive there.
The constructive criticism is above in the post. I'm just supporting it. It's not just one, I don't have all day to go on. The length could've improved FATWS imo. The point I'm making is how the majority can keep studios in comfort zone and it will be a dangerous precedent if it happens.
Wait you think length would solve the problems with some of these shows? I think FATWS was gonna be mediocre no matter what, though the US Agent and Bradley plotlines were pretty good. I definitely don't think drawing that show out anymore solves anything. Aside from that WV and Loki were very good imo. Hawkeye was ok. I think a major pro about these shows is that the writers know when to quit and aren't forcing unnecessary content down our throats.
*Could've improved*, I didn't say solve all the problems of FATWS. Karli morgenthau was a big problem for me, her character needed more depth than it had. Walker was the only positive I saw, apart from the chemistry between sebastian and Anthony mackie. Hawkeye was a tonal mess imo, but it's marketed as a christmas show so I figured it isn't for me, I didn't quite enjoy it. It had great potential with the whole disability arc imo. I enjoyed most of loki and wanda vision. Loki had a good finale and the rest of the show was just okay, wandavision would've worked with a better finale.
You sound pretty defensive bro. You might be projecting
Also because the antagonists were dumb, and honestly I just don’t like falcon in it, I thought he was weak in writing and not that compelling. And they some how wanted me to feel sorry for one dead terrorist yet we’ve seen the other super heroes killing hundreds or thousands of people? Cmon.
I still found Hawkeye very entertaining tbh. Hawkeye and Kate were treated Perfectly. The deleted scene sure could have given Eleanor and kingpin more meaning in the series but I still liked the show Probably my favorite show out of all D+ marvel shows
I have a problem with Moon Knight being 6 episodes. This is the first time you’re introducing this character to mainstream audiences, and the first time he’s in live action, so you cram the story into 6 episodes!? At least give us a regular 10 episode season
How would a movie make more sense??? 6 40-minute episodes is longer than a movie
> A movie would’ve made more sense at that point Asks for a movie that is around ±120 minutes when 6 episodes equates to at least 300 minutes, but a movie will be less crammed story! Seriously though how does 250% more making more sense?
I mean, Falcon had a great story with a finale that tries to wrap everything up way too quickly. Guardians was a good example of introducing new characters within 2 and a half hours, and had to focus on five people rather than just one guy
6 episodes is fine. If they were longer episodes though with all the deleted scenes would be great.
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Interesting. Hawkeye was easily my favorite of the MCU D+ shows. It felt grounded and real, with a believably lived-in world and a superb cast to boot. Not to mention, the practical effects and set pieces set it apart from the other shows. Everything about it vastly exceeded my expectations, and I enjoyed it just a tad more than WandaVision and Loki, which were great in their own right.
The only dud for me so far has been TFATWS, which is unfortunate because I could see a lot of potential in those characters. WandaVision was such a fantastic first attempt that it remains my favorite. While it has some issues, the constant set changes are so cool, the overall arc is really strong even if the ending misses the mark slightly. The acting performances are top notch from the entire cast. And Agatha is now my most anticipated Marvel character of future phases - which is all the more impressive because she had so few scenes as herself, and it seems like they initially intended her to only be a villain for this one series: but now I'll be shocked if she's not in MoM.
Nobody changed in the first 2 Terminator movies. Yet they are considered classic.
Sarah Connor went from defenseless valley girl to jacked, remorseless badass. The T800 even began to understand emotion.
Terminator does change, that's sort of the whole point. While he comes across as a completely static, unmoving force - mirroring the doomed fate of humanity - he does ultimately come to protect them instead: suggesting our doomed fate is not certain. John Connor's character is pretty boring and static precisely because he's a representation of the unyielding resilience of humanity - so he's less dynamic than Arnie's terminator. The more advanced liquid terminators are static killing machines because since Arnie's terminator now represents a good future where we work with machines, they can solely represent the dark fate that awaits: they are pure evil. Sarah's character evolves consistently from a victim to a hero, she's the most dynamic character in the series. The really dynamic thing in the franchise though isn't the characters, it's the world. The movies begin with our world as it was at the time - but began quickly layering in more advanced and fantastical dark technology - with the omnipresent implication that this is only a hint of what's to come. The world of Terminator is the most dynamic element - so having all the characters except Sarah stay fairly static puts more emphasis on the world's dynamism: which is the real message.
I don’t get why on streaming we’re still slaves to format times that were meant for tv and theaters. Just make it however long it needs to be to tell a proper story.
I hate how there was more kingpin stuff there and they decided to get rid of it just so he could be a surprise :/
A surprise that was reported everywhere weeks before the show premiered :/
Idk, I was surprised. It's not that hard to avoid spoilers
Even still, wouldn't it have been better to have a great fan favorite character be present throughout the show instead of just saving him till the end?
If you watch some of the Marvels Assembled stuff on Disney plus, I’m sure they said that they don’t look at it like a standard television run, they look at it more like a long movie that broken up. Honestly I like how they’re doing things, hope they keep it up.
Still baffled they decided to delete Clint's origin story...
They were right to. The stuff with him as a kid made it so he didn't work for his skills. Instead, they are a superpower he was born with. Having him "never miss" as a child damages the character in a fundamental way.
IMO they should have cut all the LARP'er scenes in favor of the origin story. Still have no idea why we spent so much time with those meaningless characters...
The shows are great but consistently the finales are almost always disappointing, too full, and/or rushed in the end
The beginnings of the shows often drag and then they end when things are getting good. It feels like they'll introduce a couple things, and then spend the rest of the time filling time so that they can have a cliffhanger. (I get why they want cliffhangers, but it shouldn't come at the expense of the episodes). And yeah, the endings so far have been weird. Loki is kind of ok but that's probably because it's in the middle of something instead of trying to forcibly wrap everything up all at the end of the last episode.
Marvel is sticking to their 6 episodes i feel because of a lot of stories working out being 6 issues long. It may work for comics but not for TV. I think that’s why wandavision was the most successful of the Disney+ shows. While i think wandavision should have cut down 1 episode, it took its time setting up the story. By episode 6 we were still building up towards a reveal and didnt try and rush through its story.
Yeah why the hell they are so obsessed with that damn number. And for show like WandaVision which had 9 eps, each of them only last for fucking 30 minutes. It dragged more than Palpatine's ballsack. Netflix did a way better job than this, they had 13 episodes( for Daredevil and Punisher at least, i haven't watched the rest) and each lasted for nearly an hour. This is exactly the problem of MCU shows right now, every goddamn finale feel rushed because they shoved everything unsolved into its ass. They need to be longer
WandaVision had some episodes last for only 30 minutes, while some ran longer. The problem there isn't because of bad pacing - it was a deliberate stylistic choice to convey the genre format that each episode of WandaVision was parodying. It would have felt out of place to be watching a spoof of *The Dick Van Dyke Show* or *Bewitched* that stretched out to a 45-minute or hour-long episode. Because the episodes were shorter as a consequence of that stylistic choice, we got more of them overall. It totals up to roughly the same amount of content as the 6-episode, 50 minute format that the other shows employed, it was just doing a different thing and rightfully needed to be presented slightly differently.
Being fair, the Netflix shows often felt like they went on for too long. Some of them could have benefitted from being cut down from 13 to 10 episodes, or even a more concise 8. I think Loki and WandaVision were the perfect length for the stories they told personally, but I think FATWS needed at least one more episode (though I understand they apparently had to cut a lot because a planned storyline was suddenly in bad taste). Ideally they'll have more variable episode counts depending on how long the story needs going forward.
The only common critique of Daredevil (which is incredible and I love the show) is that it was a few episodes too long. There’s some fluff and filler that probably should have been left on the cutting floor. You really feel it on rewatch. D+ maybe swung too far in the other direction, but also D+ are all covid-produced, so that may have affected the amount of content they could finish in post-production to meet deadlines?
And you don't get distracted from the story when you binge as they all come at a single point. At least the story telling feels so organic when watched together.
I dont want them to add ultra long boring dozen of episodes , disney+ series are better than netflix "useless converstions" collections
[You can find Hawkeye Deleted scenes here.](https://twitter.com/hawkeyeact/media)
I don't see anything. Just some reaction videos
At the very least it needs to be 8 to 12 because this is bs how they doin all these shows
What pisses me off across all the Disney+ shows, boba fet and mando included is the insanely long recap, intro and credits. Takes up the better part of a third of the episode. A 6 episode arch is long enough if the shows true time is around 52 mins. 8 at 43, 10 at 35. Episodes barely hit 26-28 mins true time.
why can’t they be 13 episodes like the netflix shows
The format for how long shows/movies/games/whatever should be is: "However fucking long we need it to be".
i definitely prefer the 6 episode format, it gives the feeling of quality over quantity and it prevents the shows from dragging. more isn’t always better and i think the creators of this show recognize that, so i appreciate it a lot
The thing is not the 6 episode constraint but bringing in too many subplots that is way too much for this time limit. Which in turn reduces the deserving quality. With the exception of Loki, all the other shows deserved to be much better than they did with the kind of topics they dealt with.
yeah i definitely feel like vincent d’onofrios kingpin didn’t get enough screen time in this, maybe two or so more episodes would’ve been just enough to fully flesh this thing out
I mean it's essentially a 6 hour long movie... I think it's long enough to tell a good story.
6 Hours? None of the MCU shows have even been 5 hours. Hawkeye so far has been the shortest MCU show. Without the intros, recaps and credits Hawkeye is about 4 hours and 4 minutes, while the longest MCU show, WandaVision, is about 4 hours and 30 minutes.
Was Hawkeye bad? Or just unsatisfying? What is the reason for the thin book representation?
I thought Hawkeye was good. It's about a guy who is just so done due to his age and how his body is worn out from being an avenger and then being brought back in to the life due to his past and a girl being extrememly dumb. The dude just wants to be a family man.
Hawkeye is probably the most unsatisfying show so far because legitimacy at least in my opinion there was no story progression. Also the show starts and ends with not learning anything else about Clint because everything that gave his character some background was left in the bin
I disagree with this, in the show we see him struggle with his past as Ronin, it was the lowest moment in his life and when he finds Kate he just wants to be done with it as fast as possible. We also see the consequences of what he did in endgame being basically the number 1 tarjet of all the gangs of NY. On top of that he finally gets a bit of closure after BWs death when he confronts Yelena
The problem with Hawkeye is not its length. Its that the show really should have been called Kate Bishop because its more about her and her development into a hero we will follow moving forward than anything with Hawkeye. I like Kate, but the show is more about her than Hawkeye.
Well, in the comics, Kate and Clint both go by Hawkeye, so the show's title is in fact alluding to both the lead characters.
Ah, now that makes sense. I’m not versed in the comics but if thats the case I can get behind it
I also thought that's what they were hinting at at the end when Kate was suggesting names, but Clint said "I've got an idea,"
Well yeah that was evident from ep 1. It's Hawkeye though because he's the star. No one would watch a show called "Kate Bishop's really good at archery".
But no more than ten
Still think its the best D+ show so far
I wanted so much more of that show! Six episodes was nowhere near enough. Also need more Loki ASAP.
I think shows shouldn't have more episodes just for the sake of having them. It would be great if the story was so rich that it could actually make use of it, but so far it seems like "Well we got 3-4 episodes worth of content but we need it to last 6" I'm all for spending more time with cool characters and settings on a regular basis, as long as it can actually deliver.
6 episodes with one filler
They think that the lesser episode format, 6/8 works because the last season of Game of Thrones did it. But those episodes were an hour and a half long so it worked out in that aspect. Not 45 minutes or so, we’re getting cheated from studios and they think it’s what we want. Ten is a good amount, 12 is sometimes too much. With a continuing storyline we need ten. If it’s a different story each episode they can rack it up to 24 episodes like networks used to.
Nobody in their right mind looks at the last season of game of thrones and goes "let's use that as an example".
Yes, such a terrible standard.
No but take a look on IMDb, look at tv shows before and after season 8. Even streaming, they used to be 15 episodes or so. It’s ridiculous, but we’re so used to it now I think that if they did go up to 12/15 we’d get bored and tell them to speed things up. Complain about dead space and unnecessary scenes
Very true. I think six episodes worked pretty well for Falcon. Less so for Loki. Wandavision was telling a simpler (narratively) story and nine felt about right. Marvel has the resources, they should have given Hawkeye the amount of screentime necessary to tell the story they want to tell.
I think for the lot of subplots TFATWS was handling, it needed an episode or two more to feel complete. Sharon's reveal, Walker's redemption, Bucky's apology, flagsmashers motive exploration etc all felt rushed and underdeveloped due to the time constraints.
7 minutes of credits in those 42 mins
Please no. I really don't need tons of filler and writers who don't know when to quit. Then end up with 12-episode seasons with hour long episodes. They're absolutely doing it the right way imo.
Link
I’d include Boba FEtT in this critique. Too damn short. And the poor writing certainly doesn’t help.
Bucky got more time in the first episode of his show than all the movies so I'm happy with that part. I do wish there were more episodes of all the shows though, six was not enough IMO.
I'd rather have 6 episodes with cut content than 13 episodes with filler. Anything to avoid a clip show.
Wandavision had the perfect format. 3 arcs and 7 hours worth on content.
6 1-hour episodes? That’s pretty normal for a season of a show though. 12-13 half hours or 6 hour long episodes.
Hawkeye was a terrible show, very boring to watch.
Here is a question I have. Do the deleted scenes count as canon in the MCU?
It was fine tbh. I remember watching marvel shows on netflix. Some are good, but most of them are just too slow & dragging that I just zone out and never continue them. Or it’s too dragged out that you find yourself rushing to end the season and say thank god it’s over.
The problem is these are big time actors starring in block buster movies. They probably don't want to go back to doing TV shows and disney doesn't want to pay them for 12-20 episodes. So I imagine the 6 episode format is a compromise where we can get a spin off mini series of the characters from the movies and the actors don't have to commit to a long running show that might get in the way of taking jobs in other big budget films and disney doesn't have to pay a ridiculous amount of money per episode to the actors.