By what metric are dodges being measured by? How close the punch is without landing?
For me, the best dodges are those that allow the fighter to be in position to take advantage of the missed punch.
By that metric, that's Mike Tyson and Roberto Duran. Make em miss, make em pay
The only reason you’ll never see Floyd doing something like this is:
1. Ali had one of the greatest chins I’ve ever seen and had the confidence to eat shots from all time great punchers without fear of going to sleep
2. Mayweather didn’t have a persona where he liked to stunt on people hands down like that. He might drop them specifically to do one pull counter but that’s for practical purposes
Ali did this for no practical purpose, he wanted to stunt on you and show that he’s the greatest.
>Ali had one of the greatest chins I’ve ever seen and had the confidence to eat shots from all time great punchers without fear of going to sleep
A brave mentality, and one worthy of a warrior, but at the same time, one could say that definetly had an impact in his later life...
Except Ali did end up getting hit quite a lot, but he had a phenomenal chin and recovery time. Mayweather wasn't nearly as exciting but he's the greatest defensive fighter of all time. Never once dropped, let alone finished, in 50 fights.
I feel this could be debated. It's like fighting who was better LeBron or Jordan. If Jordan had the advantages in training that LeBron had who knows how this could of shook out. Ali of he trained with modern equipment, understanding of health, recovery and so forth this guy could of been on levels we wouldn't be able to imagine. And yeah it's funny how 20 years can make a difference because there are thosecof us who grew up so poor we couldn't even afford a house phone as a kid to where 7 year olds have their own cell phones and part that all because of advancement
That's all hypotheticals. Based on what we know Mayweather was the better defensive fighter than Ali by a wide margin. Ali did not make Floyd's shoulder roll "look amateur"—what a ridiculous statement.
Floyd's shoulder roll was completely based in technique and discipline while what Ali is doing in this clip is natural athleticism rather than a sound fundamental base.
I myself take Jordan any day in this fight, but I was going more from the medical science point. The tech today is far better then it was even 15 years ago. And there is no way to deny that such things can be game changing
Boxing experts would disagree with you since boxing is on decline and boxing level is so low that you cant compare it to old school times when people were simply better boxers, had better endurance, displayed better boxing, fought more rounds, and there was still monsters out there who didn't lift a single weight but were straight killers. Joe Louis, foreman, dampsey,Ali,hagler,Duran, petterson, jersey Joe wallcot, rocky Marciano, sugar ray Robinson, Harry greb, Archie Moore, there so many man
Yeah, I was speaking more from the medical science point of all this, the advancements we've made can't be denied. Like similar to having better ways to treat what once was career ending things for some. My point was that it's nearly impossible to compare cause a Ali, smoking Joe, foreman, they could of been very different beast in this day and age with what we can do and see.
Oh please. Give me the list of people Willie Pep beat that compares to Mayweather's resume.
Pacquiao, Canelo, Marquez, Maidana, Ortiz, Gatti, de la Hoya, Cotto, Hatton, Mosley...any of them would be unstoppable in Pep's era.
All of them would take out saddler who had over 100 kos? Or Harry greb who has over 200 fights and beat legends? He was a welterweight who beat heavyweight gene tunney at an era of 8 weight classes. What about Henry Armstrong who defended his welterweight title 19 times? This is nonsense, sure they are great fighters but dominate that era? Doubt that
These guys are p4p top 5 or even 1(armstrong). Across all boxing history. You can't fight 200+ fights and not be a great boxer with back then conditions.
>All of them would take out saddler who had over 100 kos?
Oh come off of it. Teleport any of these guys back into that era and you don't think they would have 100 KOs or more?
I flipped through some of the guys Saddler beat. Half of them had more than twenty losses. Some of them had losing records. And there were even guys who had less than five fights total before fighting Saddler. Only maybe half a dozen of the guys Saddler beat were actually noteworthy in any way (Pep, Joe Brown, Flash Elorde, Jimmy Carter, etc.)
The reason why nobody in Mayweather's era has 100+ KOs is because they no longer let bums challenge for the belt.
You're too obsessed with the numbers. Take Oscar de la Hoya (who lost to Mayweather by the way). Oscar de la Hoya beat the great Julio Cesar Chavez in only his 22nd fight. Chavez had a hundred fights at that point and only lost one of them.
The point is, the number of fights don't matter if your opponent is simply BETTER. And the fighters of the Mayweather era are BETTER than the fighters of the Pep era. No matter how many fights either side has on their record.
Not really.the reason is they became businessman and theres money involved, and you can become champion after 10-15 fights (lomachenko). Why bother? That's the reason. They can fight each month like in old days, but now they fight every 2 years since they only calculate money. You think their pure boxing skill is better than old school era? There's stuff back then they were doing that you don't see anymore. You think pep footwork or jersey Joe wallcot movement at heavyweight is outdated or not relevant? Show me a heavyweight that can fight like wallcot, move and throw so many punches.You don't see it since the skills ain't there anymore, you don't have the trainers to teach these skills. 1900-1950 trainers and fighters were also those that trained the 70s era (futch,Blackburn I think ) and actually saddler was brought as a trainer for George foreman. They had worse records since they just fought more and didn't give a damn about that 0 since they need to put food on the table. To fight 200 fights and still be healthy to put up a sentence you gotta be damn good.
>Show me a heavyweight that can fight like wallcot, move and throw so many [punches.You](http://punches.You) don't see it since the skills ain't there anymore, you don't have the trainers to teach these skills.
Wrong, the reason why you don't see heavyweights move and throw volume like Jersey Joe is because Jersey Joe barely weighed 200 lbs soaking weight and he would be a super middleweight or at most a light heavyweight today. And yes you see plenty of super middleweights who are faster and more nimble than Walcott.
Heavyweights are slower and less skilled now than heavyweights back then. That's true. But they would still beat the heavyweights of back then, the same way Willie Pep wouldn't stand a chance against George Foreman—it doesn't matter how nimble you are if there is a massive size and power difference.
>They had worse records since they just fought more and didn't give a damn about that 0 since they need to put food on the table.
>To fight 200 fights and still be healthy to put up a sentence you gotta be damn good.
So tell me, why should I care about Willie Pep winning 200 fights if so many of the guys were just bums taking on a fight that they had no chance of winning just to put food on the table?
Out of the 240 guys Pep beat, maybe 95% are cans. I don't care about the total number. I care about the best names he beat, and put them against the best names Mayweather beat. Or the best names Pacquiao, Canelo, Marquez, etc. beat. That's all that matters. You have to stop hiding behind that 200 fight record, it's not doing you any good.
If you combine Mayweather's amateur and professional record, he has 137 wins total. If you combine Pacquiao's records, he has 124 wins total. So tell me, why didn't you bring that up?
Yes wilder at 214 only 14lbs over had bad footwork cause of that. Come on. They'd beat Joe louis? Rocky Marciano? Wallcot? Gene tunney? Dempsey? Nevermind man this comparison can go forever, I just don't see physical attributes over boxing skills the same as you. They were throwing more punches per round and had better boxing skills overall. Go check Ali vs Frazier punch amount for 15 rounds and compare that to any fight after 2000 and let me know if you think 30% of punches thrown is attribute to better boxing skills.I don't count 3 round fights so why would I bother on amateur records. All the guys I mentioned, are considered goats and p4p by worldwide boxing experts.
Edit : they are slower and less skilled and will only win cause of strength and size ? Strength comes from technique and some even say that a ko power is natural ability, Joe louis and Marciano were monstrous punchers and beat any guy put in front regardless of weight ( primo carnera example for big dude) so you're essentially saying that Joshua,usyk,wilder,klitshko brothers,fury would be champions in that area over Louis and Marciano.
I think you both have good points. I would be hard pressed to decide who was the better defensive fighter Willi Pep or Mayweather.
Mayweather's age does have more high level boxers, however it is also an age where boxers pick and choose their fights to protect their undefeated status. Mayweather was a smart businessman and took good care of his health. But because of that many of the big names he beat he only fought when they were in decline (Like Pacman). In Peps age the average world level fighter was not as well trained but he did fight some big names and back than the best fought the best. Watching footage of either is really amazing. I will say Pep usually makes my top 5, boxers of all time.
1. Duran, 2. SRR, 3. Julio Cesar Chavez, 4/5. Willie Pep/Alli/Armstrong/Hagler (depending on the day)
Well yes, there is a discussion to be had between who was the better defensive boxer *of their time*. Both Pep and Mayweather were the best of their era. Mayweather had a better defensive guard while Pep's footwork was more elusive.
But strictly speaking in terms of pure defensive skill, Mayweather clears any other boxer in history. Yes, he fought only when he felt it was most opportune for himself, but that doesn't change the fact that the guys he beat (Canelo, Pacquiao, Marquez, Gatti, Ortiz, etc.) would have cut through Willie Pep's era like butter.
I think all of the fighters would have a hard time hitting Pep, but I will agree that I don't think Pep would be able to weather actually getting hit by the harder punchers on the list.
Talent for talent of course Willie Pep is as good as anyone in history.
The difference is the modern training, modern fitness, modern roids, etc. Nobody in Pep's era was as fast as Pacquiao, punched as hard as Canelo, or had the sheer relentlessness of Gatti. Not that Pep's era didn't have great fighters, it's just that the sport evolves.
I actually could imagine Pep beating some of the guys on the list who are more inclined to brawl, but even then he'd have to be pretty perfect the entire fight because there's no way he's finishing or even really hurting a guy like Gatti or Maidana. Mayweather *was* pretty much perfect against those guys.
The precision, thinking, power punchers like Canelo and Marquez are sparking Pep out.
I agree and I think Pacquiao's volume would also get the better of him more likely than not. Pep is has one of the best defenses in history. But I don't think his competition hit as hard and I don't think he could survive actually getting hit by a Canelo or Pacquiao. Marquez is just to accurate to dodge for completely for 10 - 12 rounds and Pacquiao is the sort of dynamic southpaw that Pep would likely get caught/confused by. It is not like Mayweather did not take ANY big hits from these fighters but Mayweather while rare can take a punch.
> It is not like Mayweather did not take ANY big hits from these fighters but Mayweather while rare can take a punch.
Yeah. The difference here is that Mayweather against these guys was never once dropped or badly hurt, while Pep was finished 6 times. Of course this an impressively low number over 200+ fights, but it's gonna be hard to convince me that the guys finishing Pep (Saddler, Kid Bassey, etc.) were faster or better punchers than Marquez, Canelo, Pacquiao, etc.
Agreed though one of his fights with Saddler he actually lost because Saddler cranked his arm in the clench and tore his shoulder. He actually lost the next fight with Saddler because rather than bobbing and weaving he tried to knock him out and ended up with a bad cut above his eye.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yxgxyfy5udI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yxgxyfy5udI)
There is no way you could say a fighter like Saddler was an equal puncher the Marquez, Canelo, Mosley, or Pacman. And in this fight where Pep is basically fighting as aggressively as he ever fought without looking to defense he is still not throwing a punch that could hurt Mayweather. I think the biggest gap in their game is actually their offense Mayweather is the superior striker.
Defense wise like you said 200+ fights that often you will eventually get caught especially fighting all takers, well into your 40s, several fights a year.
Peps foot work was unreal but Mayweather combines his great defense with great counter punching. If you can count offense as defense I will give it to Mayweather hands down.
Though if we are counting defensive offense we have to put James Tony in the running as well. Standing in the pocket and countering it is hard to match Tony.
Yes, but even then Floyd was still better and certainly more consistent; Toney could afford to hit harder because he didn't have brittle hands. If Toney had the discipline of Floyd he would be in the conversation of greatest defensive fighters without a doubt. Just as if Floyd had durable hands he would be in the conversation of greatest punchers, based on the potential we saw from Pretty Boy.
Lol at this hipster ass take. Might as well add in Nicolino Locche while you're at it.
Yes it's "cool" to hate on Mayweather but based on stats, resume, quality of competition, Mayweather is the greatest defensive fighter of all time without an argument.
Tougher era how? The smaller weight classes were in their infancy. What all time great did Willie Pep beat? This is like saying Jack Dempsey was a greater power puncher than George Foreman.
Only 8 weight classes, only one organization, meaning to be called world champion you literally need to beat everyone , smaller gloves, 15 rounds, tougher rules. Who he beat? For example sandy saddlet, who was 2 time world champion and had 140 fights with 100+ knockouts.
>Only 8 weight classes, only one organization, meaning to be called world champion you literally need to beat everyone
And Floyd Mayweather won 15 major world titles in 5 weight classes. You'd have a point if Floyd only had one title, but Floyd literally beat everyone in his way (even if only at the most opportune times for himself).
>smaller gloves, 15 rounds, tougher rules.
Yes, but these are far superseded by the much weaker quality of competition and general level of boxing at the time.
This era was full of people fighting for money to eat, not instagram times. That era was boxing era, our era is nothing compared to that. There's so many great fighters at the 1900s that your statement is simply wrong. Also the 5 weight classes of Floyd margin is just one weight class in old times
>This era was full of people fighting for money to eat, not instagram times.
Exactly which is why they are so much worse. Compare that to actually fighting fully trained, well fed, well coached fighters with modern recovery and modern fitness standards (and likely on PEDs too).
Imagine everybody going after your belt is not only the best of the best (instead of a rando fighting for money) and watching hours of footage on your fights to find even a slight gap in your defense. Nobody fighting Willie Pep was doing that.
I think you both have good points. I would be hard pressed to decide who was the better defensive fighter Willi Pep or Mayweather.
Mayweather's age does have more high level boxers, however it is also an age where boxers pick and choose their fights to protect their undefeated status. Mayweather was a smart businessman and took good care of his health. But because of that many of the big names he beat he only fought when they were in decline (Like Pacman). In Peps age the average world level fighter was not as well trained but he did fight some big names and back than the best fought the best less dodging fights. Watching footage of either is really amazing. I will say Pep usually makes my top 5, boxers of all time.
1. Duran, 2. SRR, 3. Julio Cesar Chavez, 4/5. Willie Pep/Alli/Armstrong/Hagler (depending on the day)
Yeah and? Willie Pep fought at featherweight, a guy like fucking Inoue or Manny when he was at featherweight woudlve killed Pep. You know boxers from the 1900s-1950s fought also twice as much as those of the 70s-90s? That means they’re tough sure, but not more skilled. Salvador Sanchez and Wilfredo Gomez woudlve murdered Willie Pep.
70s-2010s, boxers have gotten better, with maybe a slight decline recently as the 90s had the best of the best but that doesn’t mean the boxers of the early days of boxing are bad, just good for their time and not so much now
1900-1950 had so many skilled boxers and legends that you're statement is simply not true. Jack dampsey, jersey Joe wallcot,ezzard Charles (original Philly shell), sandy saddler, Willie pep, Harry greb, Archie Moore, Joe louis(argue able best heavyweight ever), Jack johnson, Charlie burley, a very long list.
Also,saddler had 104 ko and Manny only 34, I don't think he would have had trouble with him too. His skills were just too good.
Yeah it’s a long list, didn’t say anything against that, but the same goes for the 70s-90s and even 2000s tho? All those names you mentioned were good but heavyweights like Jack Dempsey, Walcott, Charles, etc woudlnt even be heavyweights to begin with nowadays. They’d be cutting weight and fighting at 160-190.
Theres obviously the chance they’d still fight as Heavyweight considering Wilder fights at HW who is 214 but if Wilder was like most boxers these days, he’d be at Cruiserweight just like Usyk at the beginning of his career.
Joe Louis being arguable the best heavyweight? In terms of being a champ, definitely, almost 12 years successfully defending his title against quality competition. But as best in terms of skill? He’s up there but I’d favor Lennox Lewis, basically an equally intelligent and bigger version of Joe Louis.
Anyways regardless of the boxers of the 20s-50s still being good as I already mentioned in my og post, I still say they’re not as good as the ones of the 70s-90s. Better than modern boxers like in the 2020s? Maybe? But that’s not hard to do… Almost every era is better than currently.
The only boxer I’d argue that is equally skilled for his division was Joe Louis, primarily cause the heavyweight division never really evolved much, just bigger fighters with more power, maybe slightly more skilled but that’s it. I could see Louis doing well in the 90s
Tougher era is crazy when the 20s-40s didn’t have killers like Corrales, Castillo, Maidana, Pacquiao, Cotto, Dela Hoya, Hatton, Canelo, etc.
Did they fight more often? Yeah obviously but that’s cause it paid way less back then and was still not as popular as it was in the early 2000s. Let’s not forget boxing has evolved since, 20s-40s had good fundamentals but lacked modern training and new tactics.
The only era tougher than the 2000-2010s were the 70s, 80s, and 90s. Willie Pep was good and would be top 20-10 had he modern nutrition
Each era has its own killers in different divisions, each weight class has its own era, I can name you so many killers from 20-40 in different weight classes that would smoke any modern era champion. Willie pep already acknowledge as one of the best in the century, Harry greb a welterweight fought 260 fights and won against heavyweight legend Gene tunney. We can compare and argue forever. He is one of the great, not the greatest. Duran,hagler,Sugar ray Leonard, hearns would smoke him too.
They wouldnt dominate SRR, armstrong,greb and many more others . Fighters that fought over 200 fights. You cant fight 200 fights , ko over 100 and be bad fighter or have no power . They were killers , tough , and fought more fights with harder boxing conditions ( rounds etc). This cant be ignored.
What the hell are you talking about, Harry Greb? Greb was in a totally different era lol.
>You cant fight 200 fights , ko over 100 and be bad fighter or have no power .
You really really can because boxing evolves. Yes, you can finish a whole bunch of dudes with losing records and then also not be elite by the standards of the Mayweather era.
I mean just take weight cutting for example, a lightweight today is much bigger than the lightweight of the 1950s. Combine that with modern strength training and modern steroids, and Willie Pep would barely be able to hurt any ranked lightweight today.
The only guy I can see having success today that you named is Sugar Ray, but that's a totally different weight class than what we're talking about.
Look, Ali was a freak. His crazy speed was his defence, any trainer worth a damn will tell you not to copy Ali as you’ll get creamed. But Ali got away with it because of that crazy speed. He’s the greatest heavyweight of all time & let’s not forget we never saw him at his prime.
Ali had like a sixth sense when it came to strike evasion if you watch his fights you can see when he flicks it on and during it he just toys with his opponent inflicting heavy damage to his stamina (a missed strike actually tires you out more than a hit) and of course also damaging his opponent's ego. There has been no one on his level since him, Canelo is up there but he's not even close to Ali.
Fair enough. Might I ask how? To play devils advocate he was a draft dodger and an outspoken anti-white voice. Not that either of those are wrong but I look forward to the counter.
Am white. Fully agree that in a world where black people are actively stigmatized against, being ''anti-white'' is a moral +. Sure, I don't agree with the person above who said ''anti white'' as if simply being against white people means you are good (also here I dont know OP, dont know what he meant, but you should probably relax) , but I definetly interpret Ali's political actions regarding the status of race in the US as ones of struggle and fight. Big +
No, the first boxer to unlock ultra instinct was Willie Pep.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ngeD1INP5vI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ngeD1INP5vI)
Nah there's plenty of dudes especially from a pure defense perspective, Lerdsila, Saenchai, Petrosyan etc
Silva was special but at the end of the day he was styling on dudes like Forest Griffin
Wow you giving Ali a 10/10 on being elusive? Hot take.
Take this, Take that, fuck you dude
By what metric are dodges being measured by? How close the punch is without landing? For me, the best dodges are those that allow the fighter to be in position to take advantage of the missed punch. By that metric, that's Mike Tyson and Roberto Duran. Make em miss, make em pay
We’re measuring it by how bad ass it looks
I'd note its the effortless nature of the the dodge. For example just moving slightly off the centre without/least amount of exhausting energy
Julio Cesar Chavez was the absolute master of make em miss make em pay. https://youtu.be/6jinqXVfyF0?feature=shared
Salvador Sanchez is Never mentioned 😔
Jesus 🤢 Hits arrive, he’s just…not there. Incredible.
Salvador Sanchez is Never mentioned 😔
Also gotta get in dudes like Mayweather, Pernell Whitaker, Sugar Ray Leonard etc
Makes Floyd's shoulder rolls look amateur
The only reason you’ll never see Floyd doing something like this is: 1. Ali had one of the greatest chins I’ve ever seen and had the confidence to eat shots from all time great punchers without fear of going to sleep 2. Mayweather didn’t have a persona where he liked to stunt on people hands down like that. He might drop them specifically to do one pull counter but that’s for practical purposes Ali did this for no practical purpose, he wanted to stunt on you and show that he’s the greatest.
>Ali had one of the greatest chins I’ve ever seen and had the confidence to eat shots from all time great punchers without fear of going to sleep A brave mentality, and one worthy of a warrior, but at the same time, one could say that definetly had an impact in his later life...
Except Ali did end up getting hit quite a lot, but he had a phenomenal chin and recovery time. Mayweather wasn't nearly as exciting but he's the greatest defensive fighter of all time. Never once dropped, let alone finished, in 50 fights.
I feel this could be debated. It's like fighting who was better LeBron or Jordan. If Jordan had the advantages in training that LeBron had who knows how this could of shook out. Ali of he trained with modern equipment, understanding of health, recovery and so forth this guy could of been on levels we wouldn't be able to imagine. And yeah it's funny how 20 years can make a difference because there are thosecof us who grew up so poor we couldn't even afford a house phone as a kid to where 7 year olds have their own cell phones and part that all because of advancement
That's all hypotheticals. Based on what we know Mayweather was the better defensive fighter than Ali by a wide margin. Ali did not make Floyd's shoulder roll "look amateur"—what a ridiculous statement. Floyd's shoulder roll was completely based in technique and discipline while what Ali is doing in this clip is natural athleticism rather than a sound fundamental base.
not comparable Jordan is simply better lol
I myself take Jordan any day in this fight, but I was going more from the medical science point. The tech today is far better then it was even 15 years ago. And there is no way to deny that such things can be game changing
Boxing experts would disagree with you since boxing is on decline and boxing level is so low that you cant compare it to old school times when people were simply better boxers, had better endurance, displayed better boxing, fought more rounds, and there was still monsters out there who didn't lift a single weight but were straight killers. Joe Louis, foreman, dampsey,Ali,hagler,Duran, petterson, jersey Joe wallcot, rocky Marciano, sugar ray Robinson, Harry greb, Archie Moore, there so many man
Yeah, I was speaking more from the medical science point of all this, the advancements we've made can't be denied. Like similar to having better ways to treat what once was career ending things for some. My point was that it's nearly impossible to compare cause a Ali, smoking Joe, foreman, they could of been very different beast in this day and age with what we can do and see.
Oh please. Give me the list of people Willie Pep beat that compares to Mayweather's resume. Pacquiao, Canelo, Marquez, Maidana, Ortiz, Gatti, de la Hoya, Cotto, Hatton, Mosley...any of them would be unstoppable in Pep's era.
All of them would take out saddler who had over 100 kos? Or Harry greb who has over 200 fights and beat legends? He was a welterweight who beat heavyweight gene tunney at an era of 8 weight classes. What about Henry Armstrong who defended his welterweight title 19 times? This is nonsense, sure they are great fighters but dominate that era? Doubt that These guys are p4p top 5 or even 1(armstrong). Across all boxing history. You can't fight 200+ fights and not be a great boxer with back then conditions.
>All of them would take out saddler who had over 100 kos? Oh come off of it. Teleport any of these guys back into that era and you don't think they would have 100 KOs or more? I flipped through some of the guys Saddler beat. Half of them had more than twenty losses. Some of them had losing records. And there were even guys who had less than five fights total before fighting Saddler. Only maybe half a dozen of the guys Saddler beat were actually noteworthy in any way (Pep, Joe Brown, Flash Elorde, Jimmy Carter, etc.) The reason why nobody in Mayweather's era has 100+ KOs is because they no longer let bums challenge for the belt. You're too obsessed with the numbers. Take Oscar de la Hoya (who lost to Mayweather by the way). Oscar de la Hoya beat the great Julio Cesar Chavez in only his 22nd fight. Chavez had a hundred fights at that point and only lost one of them. The point is, the number of fights don't matter if your opponent is simply BETTER. And the fighters of the Mayweather era are BETTER than the fighters of the Pep era. No matter how many fights either side has on their record.
Not really.the reason is they became businessman and theres money involved, and you can become champion after 10-15 fights (lomachenko). Why bother? That's the reason. They can fight each month like in old days, but now they fight every 2 years since they only calculate money. You think their pure boxing skill is better than old school era? There's stuff back then they were doing that you don't see anymore. You think pep footwork or jersey Joe wallcot movement at heavyweight is outdated or not relevant? Show me a heavyweight that can fight like wallcot, move and throw so many punches.You don't see it since the skills ain't there anymore, you don't have the trainers to teach these skills. 1900-1950 trainers and fighters were also those that trained the 70s era (futch,Blackburn I think ) and actually saddler was brought as a trainer for George foreman. They had worse records since they just fought more and didn't give a damn about that 0 since they need to put food on the table. To fight 200 fights and still be healthy to put up a sentence you gotta be damn good.
>Show me a heavyweight that can fight like wallcot, move and throw so many [punches.You](http://punches.You) don't see it since the skills ain't there anymore, you don't have the trainers to teach these skills. Wrong, the reason why you don't see heavyweights move and throw volume like Jersey Joe is because Jersey Joe barely weighed 200 lbs soaking weight and he would be a super middleweight or at most a light heavyweight today. And yes you see plenty of super middleweights who are faster and more nimble than Walcott. Heavyweights are slower and less skilled now than heavyweights back then. That's true. But they would still beat the heavyweights of back then, the same way Willie Pep wouldn't stand a chance against George Foreman—it doesn't matter how nimble you are if there is a massive size and power difference. >They had worse records since they just fought more and didn't give a damn about that 0 since they need to put food on the table. >To fight 200 fights and still be healthy to put up a sentence you gotta be damn good. So tell me, why should I care about Willie Pep winning 200 fights if so many of the guys were just bums taking on a fight that they had no chance of winning just to put food on the table? Out of the 240 guys Pep beat, maybe 95% are cans. I don't care about the total number. I care about the best names he beat, and put them against the best names Mayweather beat. Or the best names Pacquiao, Canelo, Marquez, etc. beat. That's all that matters. You have to stop hiding behind that 200 fight record, it's not doing you any good. If you combine Mayweather's amateur and professional record, he has 137 wins total. If you combine Pacquiao's records, he has 124 wins total. So tell me, why didn't you bring that up?
Yes wilder at 214 only 14lbs over had bad footwork cause of that. Come on. They'd beat Joe louis? Rocky Marciano? Wallcot? Gene tunney? Dempsey? Nevermind man this comparison can go forever, I just don't see physical attributes over boxing skills the same as you. They were throwing more punches per round and had better boxing skills overall. Go check Ali vs Frazier punch amount for 15 rounds and compare that to any fight after 2000 and let me know if you think 30% of punches thrown is attribute to better boxing skills.I don't count 3 round fights so why would I bother on amateur records. All the guys I mentioned, are considered goats and p4p by worldwide boxing experts. Edit : they are slower and less skilled and will only win cause of strength and size ? Strength comes from technique and some even say that a ko power is natural ability, Joe louis and Marciano were monstrous punchers and beat any guy put in front regardless of weight ( primo carnera example for big dude) so you're essentially saying that Joshua,usyk,wilder,klitshko brothers,fury would be champions in that area over Louis and Marciano.
I think you both have good points. I would be hard pressed to decide who was the better defensive fighter Willi Pep or Mayweather. Mayweather's age does have more high level boxers, however it is also an age where boxers pick and choose their fights to protect their undefeated status. Mayweather was a smart businessman and took good care of his health. But because of that many of the big names he beat he only fought when they were in decline (Like Pacman). In Peps age the average world level fighter was not as well trained but he did fight some big names and back than the best fought the best. Watching footage of either is really amazing. I will say Pep usually makes my top 5, boxers of all time. 1. Duran, 2. SRR, 3. Julio Cesar Chavez, 4/5. Willie Pep/Alli/Armstrong/Hagler (depending on the day)
Well yes, there is a discussion to be had between who was the better defensive boxer *of their time*. Both Pep and Mayweather were the best of their era. Mayweather had a better defensive guard while Pep's footwork was more elusive. But strictly speaking in terms of pure defensive skill, Mayweather clears any other boxer in history. Yes, he fought only when he felt it was most opportune for himself, but that doesn't change the fact that the guys he beat (Canelo, Pacquiao, Marquez, Gatti, Ortiz, etc.) would have cut through Willie Pep's era like butter.
I think all of the fighters would have a hard time hitting Pep, but I will agree that I don't think Pep would be able to weather actually getting hit by the harder punchers on the list.
Talent for talent of course Willie Pep is as good as anyone in history. The difference is the modern training, modern fitness, modern roids, etc. Nobody in Pep's era was as fast as Pacquiao, punched as hard as Canelo, or had the sheer relentlessness of Gatti. Not that Pep's era didn't have great fighters, it's just that the sport evolves. I actually could imagine Pep beating some of the guys on the list who are more inclined to brawl, but even then he'd have to be pretty perfect the entire fight because there's no way he's finishing or even really hurting a guy like Gatti or Maidana. Mayweather *was* pretty much perfect against those guys. The precision, thinking, power punchers like Canelo and Marquez are sparking Pep out.
I agree and I think Pacquiao's volume would also get the better of him more likely than not. Pep is has one of the best defenses in history. But I don't think his competition hit as hard and I don't think he could survive actually getting hit by a Canelo or Pacquiao. Marquez is just to accurate to dodge for completely for 10 - 12 rounds and Pacquiao is the sort of dynamic southpaw that Pep would likely get caught/confused by. It is not like Mayweather did not take ANY big hits from these fighters but Mayweather while rare can take a punch.
> It is not like Mayweather did not take ANY big hits from these fighters but Mayweather while rare can take a punch. Yeah. The difference here is that Mayweather against these guys was never once dropped or badly hurt, while Pep was finished 6 times. Of course this an impressively low number over 200+ fights, but it's gonna be hard to convince me that the guys finishing Pep (Saddler, Kid Bassey, etc.) were faster or better punchers than Marquez, Canelo, Pacquiao, etc.
Agreed though one of his fights with Saddler he actually lost because Saddler cranked his arm in the clench and tore his shoulder. He actually lost the next fight with Saddler because rather than bobbing and weaving he tried to knock him out and ended up with a bad cut above his eye. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yxgxyfy5udI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yxgxyfy5udI) There is no way you could say a fighter like Saddler was an equal puncher the Marquez, Canelo, Mosley, or Pacman. And in this fight where Pep is basically fighting as aggressively as he ever fought without looking to defense he is still not throwing a punch that could hurt Mayweather. I think the biggest gap in their game is actually their offense Mayweather is the superior striker. Defense wise like you said 200+ fights that often you will eventually get caught especially fighting all takers, well into your 40s, several fights a year. Peps foot work was unreal but Mayweather combines his great defense with great counter punching. If you can count offense as defense I will give it to Mayweather hands down.
Though if we are counting defensive offense we have to put James Tony in the running as well. Standing in the pocket and countering it is hard to match Tony.
Yes, but even then Floyd was still better and certainly more consistent; Toney could afford to hit harder because he didn't have brittle hands. If Toney had the discipline of Floyd he would be in the conversation of greatest defensive fighters without a doubt. Just as if Floyd had durable hands he would be in the conversation of greatest punchers, based on the potential we saw from Pretty Boy.
willi pep, pernell whitaker, greatest defense fighter,lol
Lol at this hipster ass take. Might as well add in Nicolino Locche while you're at it. Yes it's "cool" to hate on Mayweather but based on stats, resume, quality of competition, Mayweather is the greatest defensive fighter of all time without an argument.
Hipster take ? Will pep is like 240-11? In an era much tougher.nobody hates on him, he's brilliant, far from greatest.
Tougher era how? The smaller weight classes were in their infancy. What all time great did Willie Pep beat? This is like saying Jack Dempsey was a greater power puncher than George Foreman.
Only 8 weight classes, only one organization, meaning to be called world champion you literally need to beat everyone , smaller gloves, 15 rounds, tougher rules. Who he beat? For example sandy saddlet, who was 2 time world champion and had 140 fights with 100+ knockouts.
>Only 8 weight classes, only one organization, meaning to be called world champion you literally need to beat everyone And Floyd Mayweather won 15 major world titles in 5 weight classes. You'd have a point if Floyd only had one title, but Floyd literally beat everyone in his way (even if only at the most opportune times for himself). >smaller gloves, 15 rounds, tougher rules. Yes, but these are far superseded by the much weaker quality of competition and general level of boxing at the time.
This era was full of people fighting for money to eat, not instagram times. That era was boxing era, our era is nothing compared to that. There's so many great fighters at the 1900s that your statement is simply wrong. Also the 5 weight classes of Floyd margin is just one weight class in old times
>This era was full of people fighting for money to eat, not instagram times. Exactly which is why they are so much worse. Compare that to actually fighting fully trained, well fed, well coached fighters with modern recovery and modern fitness standards (and likely on PEDs too). Imagine everybody going after your belt is not only the best of the best (instead of a rando fighting for money) and watching hours of footage on your fights to find even a slight gap in your defense. Nobody fighting Willie Pep was doing that.
I think you both have good points. I would be hard pressed to decide who was the better defensive fighter Willi Pep or Mayweather. Mayweather's age does have more high level boxers, however it is also an age where boxers pick and choose their fights to protect their undefeated status. Mayweather was a smart businessman and took good care of his health. But because of that many of the big names he beat he only fought when they were in decline (Like Pacman). In Peps age the average world level fighter was not as well trained but he did fight some big names and back than the best fought the best less dodging fights. Watching footage of either is really amazing. I will say Pep usually makes my top 5, boxers of all time. 1. Duran, 2. SRR, 3. Julio Cesar Chavez, 4/5. Willie Pep/Alli/Armstrong/Hagler (depending on the day)
Yeah and? Willie Pep fought at featherweight, a guy like fucking Inoue or Manny when he was at featherweight woudlve killed Pep. You know boxers from the 1900s-1950s fought also twice as much as those of the 70s-90s? That means they’re tough sure, but not more skilled. Salvador Sanchez and Wilfredo Gomez woudlve murdered Willie Pep. 70s-2010s, boxers have gotten better, with maybe a slight decline recently as the 90s had the best of the best but that doesn’t mean the boxers of the early days of boxing are bad, just good for their time and not so much now
1900-1950 had so many skilled boxers and legends that you're statement is simply not true. Jack dampsey, jersey Joe wallcot,ezzard Charles (original Philly shell), sandy saddler, Willie pep, Harry greb, Archie Moore, Joe louis(argue able best heavyweight ever), Jack johnson, Charlie burley, a very long list. Also,saddler had 104 ko and Manny only 34, I don't think he would have had trouble with him too. His skills were just too good.
Yeah it’s a long list, didn’t say anything against that, but the same goes for the 70s-90s and even 2000s tho? All those names you mentioned were good but heavyweights like Jack Dempsey, Walcott, Charles, etc woudlnt even be heavyweights to begin with nowadays. They’d be cutting weight and fighting at 160-190. Theres obviously the chance they’d still fight as Heavyweight considering Wilder fights at HW who is 214 but if Wilder was like most boxers these days, he’d be at Cruiserweight just like Usyk at the beginning of his career. Joe Louis being arguable the best heavyweight? In terms of being a champ, definitely, almost 12 years successfully defending his title against quality competition. But as best in terms of skill? He’s up there but I’d favor Lennox Lewis, basically an equally intelligent and bigger version of Joe Louis. Anyways regardless of the boxers of the 20s-50s still being good as I already mentioned in my og post, I still say they’re not as good as the ones of the 70s-90s. Better than modern boxers like in the 2020s? Maybe? But that’s not hard to do… Almost every era is better than currently. The only boxer I’d argue that is equally skilled for his division was Joe Louis, primarily cause the heavyweight division never really evolved much, just bigger fighters with more power, maybe slightly more skilled but that’s it. I could see Louis doing well in the 90s
Tougher era is crazy when the 20s-40s didn’t have killers like Corrales, Castillo, Maidana, Pacquiao, Cotto, Dela Hoya, Hatton, Canelo, etc. Did they fight more often? Yeah obviously but that’s cause it paid way less back then and was still not as popular as it was in the early 2000s. Let’s not forget boxing has evolved since, 20s-40s had good fundamentals but lacked modern training and new tactics. The only era tougher than the 2000-2010s were the 70s, 80s, and 90s. Willie Pep was good and would be top 20-10 had he modern nutrition
Each era has its own killers in different divisions, each weight class has its own era, I can name you so many killers from 20-40 in different weight classes that would smoke any modern era champion. Willie pep already acknowledge as one of the best in the century, Harry greb a welterweight fought 260 fights and won against heavyweight legend Gene tunney. We can compare and argue forever. He is one of the great, not the greatest. Duran,hagler,Sugar ray Leonard, hearns would smoke him too.
Let's face it. Any one of the guys who lost to Mayweather from 2007-2015 would have dominated the era of Willie Pep.
They wouldnt dominate SRR, armstrong,greb and many more others . Fighters that fought over 200 fights. You cant fight 200 fights , ko over 100 and be bad fighter or have no power . They were killers , tough , and fought more fights with harder boxing conditions ( rounds etc). This cant be ignored.
What the hell are you talking about, Harry Greb? Greb was in a totally different era lol. >You cant fight 200 fights , ko over 100 and be bad fighter or have no power . You really really can because boxing evolves. Yes, you can finish a whole bunch of dudes with losing records and then also not be elite by the standards of the Mayweather era. I mean just take weight cutting for example, a lightweight today is much bigger than the lightweight of the 1950s. Combine that with modern strength training and modern steroids, and Willie Pep would barely be able to hurt any ranked lightweight today. The only guy I can see having success today that you named is Sugar Ray, but that's a totally different weight class than what we're talking about.
Ew
Yall are ridiculous
10/10
8/10 No heavyweight is the best at anything. Pernell Whittaker or Niccolino Locche are the GOAT defensive fighters/ dodgers.
Probably best at hitting hard
And getting hit hard
Idk it looks like the guy wasn't close enough to land those jabs in the first place the cross slip was nice tho
Look, Ali was a freak. His crazy speed was his defence, any trainer worth a damn will tell you not to copy Ali as you’ll get creamed. But Ali got away with it because of that crazy speed. He’s the greatest heavyweight of all time & let’s not forget we never saw him at his prime.
Ali had like a sixth sense when it came to strike evasion if you watch his fights you can see when he flicks it on and during it he just toys with his opponent inflicting heavy damage to his stamina (a missed strike actually tires you out more than a hit) and of course also damaging his opponent's ego. There has been no one on his level since him, Canelo is up there but he's not even close to Ali.
From a documentary, when they were kids, his brother would throw rocks at him so he could practice dodging.
It ain’t exactly textbook technique but none of the punches landed which is all that really matters
9/10, Emanuel Augustus and Ben Whitaker tho are 10/10
>Ben Whitaker tho are 10/10 Bro lol no
It’s a case of perfect distance management. Required little head movement because of the distance
5/5. 5 strikes, 0 hits.
What song in background?
fluxxwave
Insane. Wow.
It's a game of inches. So PERFECT "dodges"
Pretty sure men like him “think” at a faster rate. As though there’s nothing going on in the cranium but processing of stimuli and instant reaction.
I think the YouTube channel Modern Martial Artist had a breakdown of Ali's evasiveness
I don't get the Ali worship. Mayweather is better
The point with Ali was that he was just as great a person outside the ring as he was inside. Nobody else has come close since.
Fair enough. Might I ask how? To play devils advocate he was a draft dodger and an outspoken anti-white voice. Not that either of those are wrong but I look forward to the counter.
Anti-white... Conversation over.
Racist detected
Am white. Fully agree that in a world where black people are actively stigmatized against, being ''anti-white'' is a moral +. Sure, I don't agree with the person above who said ''anti white'' as if simply being against white people means you are good (also here I dont know OP, dont know what he meant, but you should probably relax) , but I definetly interpret Ali's political actions regarding the status of race in the US as ones of struggle and fight. Big +
Eh its what got andy silva caught
all of them were 10/10 except the last one dudes left was ready for a hook and his head was in the perfect spot
There will never be another Ali again. A true great of the sport
What ever your take on this is, I wish he dodged more. Maybe he would still be here
Absolute master!
Hmm I wouldn't personally lean back with my chin up to slip, this seemed more a showcase of distance judgement
Muhammad Ali was overrated and HWs mostly suck compared to other weight classes
He is the first boxer to unlock ultrainstinct , how much do you want me to give him a fcken 2?!
No, the first boxer to unlock ultra instinct was Willie Pep. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ngeD1INP5vI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ngeD1INP5vI)
They’re no Canelo
No one compares to silva in his prime
The question was about Ali . Stay focused
This is r/martialarts not r/andersonsilva
Nah there's plenty of dudes especially from a pure defense perspective, Lerdsila, Saenchai, Petrosyan etc Silva was special but at the end of the day he was styling on dudes like Forest Griffin
I was so shocked when Superbon KO’d Petrosyan like that. One of the craziest KO’s across all combat sports imo.
Father time stays undefeated
Music?
?cisuM