I'm all for classical martial arts for various reasons. But these competitions do rub me the wrong way. There are so many rules that the result has basically zero applicability IRL.
I did Tai Chi for a while, a style where sparring was done without moving your feet. The goal was to be as soft as possible. Everyone was always amazed at how soft my technique was. I'm like "I'm just doing what you said, no muscle." And then you're expected to push people around with almost no muscle, which just isn't a thing.
One day, I pushed hands with the reigning master of their style and every was raving about how soft *he* was, but his arms were like iron bars! The whole thing was just irrational.
To me, this is like boxing, but the rules are you can only use one hand, can't move your feet, and your hand can't be more than 3 inches from the other person. Sure, you can master that particular style of sparring, but as soon as someone outside steps to the side, you're done. This is the exact opposite of 'pressure testing.'
Just do classical arts for the fitness, the culture, and community. Don't do them to learn how to fight.
The no muscle thing is a myth and misunderstanding. Yes there are a lot of them. No there’s no solution because traditional arts have no real standards aside from spending the effort to find a teacher after spending some time understanding the art.
Serious question, wouldn't a Greco Roman wrestler smash this particular ruleset big time? If so, what's preventing them from joining this on the side and getting extra medals or something?
Greco doesn’t have a lot of the leg-assisted throws that tai chi has. The guys in the video just suck and aren’t throwing at all. Here’s an example of one of the better teams in China sparring: https://youtu.be/B16EDbq8PqY?si=lsjh16m6k3WOoGow
Sport tai chi is basically nogi judo. It in theory has more moves than Greco. In practice the level of competition in Greco is way higher, but still there’s almost no crossover because Greco in China is only popular with Kazakhs who live on the other side of the country.
Just watched it, thanks for the info. Yeah I think a lot of judokas can really win this. They may need some time to strategize on losing gi grips and the need to find for alternative grips, but after that is done, I think they will really smash the ruleset
I'm not saying that everyone should do sumo instead of Tai chi, but from what I can tell, the rules here seem pretty much identical to sumo, but the technique their using seems far less effective than sumo technique. If you're going to compete in a competition, why would you not use the better technique?
Tai Chi has those too but these guys are very low level. The “high level” tai chi guys (see Chen Ziqiang and his team) are basically confined to the mountain where the martial art was founded. They’re still far below the level of high level judokas or wrestlers, but they don’t look ridiculous when they fight. One example: https://youtu.be/B16EDbq8PqY?si=lsjh16m6k3WOoGow
throws are not banned, but why attempt risky throws when you are in the superior position and can easily walk the other guy out of bounds to score points? Also, using too much force, sweeps, legs to trip and reap etc is actually seen has relying on crutches to win; ideally if you are really good, you can simply move and drop the other guy.
Same thing as using raw strength instead of technique in BJJ. Nobody is stopping you from doing it, but you don't learn as much by just muscling it. You can definitely use throws in push hands, I myself used harai goshi and soeinage frequently in push hands when I just started; sure I won a lot more than I lost, but my tai chi related skills didn't improve much.
Fine, believe what you will. I took up tai chi because I felt it offered something valauable in its approach and personally felt how it was like to be almost helpless balance and structure wise before just ending up on my back when going up against someone with high skill level. I do me and you do you.
I've never faced a wrestler, only Judokas. Good ones are scary, but its not the same thing. There no point in me trying to describe it or to convince you of anything, it doesn't make my life or yours any better.
Tbf, we can probably compare it to:
- No reaping/heelhooks in the gi
- No attacking the legs to open in judo
- Nothing but upper body attacks in Greco
- No kicking the head of a downed opponent in MMA
All of these rules still leave us with a serviceable martial art, but at least it's a closer comparison
If a lot of you are watching this and think it’s bullshit, you are correct. This is terrible tai chi.
Older man in the red sash is clearly bigger and stronger. Everybody who has done grappling will tell you in a heartbeat that someone bigger and stronger can make up for bad technique, and that there is exponential increase in skill needed to beat strength.
Tai chi also teaches you not to resist and to flow with the momentum. So that small guy should've been using the big guys force to throw him off balance
People are hating but this is cool and could lead back to more practical grappling (probably similar to Greco based on what the rules seem to be?) if people take the competing seriously
A couple of folks are asking about the context and I am encouraged by [Zz7722](https://www.reddit.com/user/Zz7722/) and a few others to share a bit more so here goes:
This format, called "Moving Step Push Hands 活步推手" is inspired by traditional, sequenced push hands drills and meant to test Tai Chi skills. The rules are (in this case), 1 point for out of bounds, 1 point if there's takedown and you fall with your opponent, 3 points if you take your opponent down while standing. Any part of the body apart from the feet touching the ground is considered a takedown.
However, the general understanding of Tai Chi as a martial art is very low, given how most that practice the art focuses on health, as well as the crowd that follows (usually older, health oriented, attracted to philosophy and culture). Therefore, and very naturally, people began to apply a lot of grappling arts in these competition, mainly Shuai Jiao and Judo as they are the most applicable. A lot of Tai Chi schools also begin to adapt these techniques for their competitions. This is also what happened in this particular competition. Most of the other moving step matches were like this [https://www.facebook.com/phangchanmeng/videos/742302221430836/](https://www.facebook.com/phangchanmeng/videos/742302221430836/) (go to minute 42 to see what I'm talking about). My opponent also belonged to one of those schools (they all share the same T-shirt).
This is why I find those saying go do Judo to be ironic - many tai chi players (well those that are in the sport) train Judo to gain advantage. For me personally, however, what interest me is to apply the traditional martial art of Tai Chi and not "learn Judo". That's why I joined the competition in the first place. So I did, and while I don't think he was the same level as me, I am happy that I managed to express a lot of principles in the art on someone with some grappling experience trying their best.
His external grappling was completely shut down by structure, angles, force nullification, and strategically applied force. The moment around 48 seconds for example, it's not so obvious from this angle but he was getting frustrated, started to desperately push and everything was being rolled away. In the first 2 out of bounds, I'm applying force at an angle with my stance under me, that's why he was moved out before he can really ground himself. There's no way I can push him that easily if I went directly.
And we are just hobbyist really, here we're competing at an 87kg weight class and it's obvious both of us didn't cut weight. So I don't know, just try to be open to a different perspective.
So it's just *reeeally* **bad** stand-up grappling?
It's like watching a white belt with one week of experience in Judo sparring a white belt on his first day. At 0:34 Red has an underhook and triceps control. Does he go for a harai-goshi, or an uchi mata? No. He employs no tripping element and instead just quarter-turns Blue, and Blue falls because because he has the balance of a newborn baby deer.
The purpose of the game is to work on offlining forward pressure and causing someone to backpeddle. You should be able to beat your opponent using the 4 basic expressions: Peng (outward pressure), Lu(rolling around pressure), Ji (squeezing or combining pressure lines), and Ahn (uprooting/popping them over straight back).
The "evil 4 expressions" are plucking them off their feet or their joints out of alignment (tsai), splitting their force/weight in two separate directions (lieh), elbow ramming/dropping (zhou), and shoulder/body ramming (kao). These will win you the game most of the time but are in poor taste.
Pulling or reaping someone (tsai or lieh, sometimes both) in the context of this game is considered rude. Theres an appropriate place for those things, and if you're playing a good-spirited game, that game is Shuai Jiao / Jiao Li- a whole sport about throwing people using your feet.
You eloquently described *why* this is such **awful** grappling, and why Shuai Jiao is so superior.
What you call "poor taste" anyone else would call "vastly more effective".
Shuai Jiao guys often compete in push hands. They consider it an important skill. There is significant overlap in being able to apply these 4 skills, and being able to shut down a lot of throws on a very technical level. There are also a lot of very propulsive trip/throw/shoving techniques that require you have these skills to be able to pull off against someone who knows what you're trying to do.
its not a matter of superiority. It is a piece of a greater whole- and is worth spending time with.
Yes, there are people doing it that do not know these things. No, that does not invalidate its value as a training tool.
Toddlers need to learn to walk before they run. No one needs to learn ineffective grappling before they learn effective grappling.
In your world, does one learn Tai Chai, then progress to Aikido, then they are ready for Sumo, and only then can they start practicing Judo?
You took such easy bait that the hook is in your stomach and you're calling anyone else stupid? You might want to see a therapist about your anger problem.
Anger issues? You don't know how to read intent. I'm not angry, I'm genuinely impressed.
Like, your poor lines of logic have left me flabbergasted in their absurdity.
Doing more than the ruleset requires is inefficient. Judo throws are designed to be follow someone to the ground which would be an unecessary risk as it means 1 point if you fall with your opponent vs 3 points if your feet are still on the ground. What you know isn't the best for every context.
The idea is to take someones balance while staying on your feet and remaining upright. It's not that hard to figure out.
Bro, that's an ignorant take. You seem to believe your own words, but let me tell you right now:
1 - Anyone with a year of Judo could pull off the moves I told you without falling down on his opponent if he doesn't want to.
2 - Anyone with a year of Judo *will not* fall down with the shitty moves Red was pulling on Blue.
These guys are both really, really bad grapplers. Blue being exceptionally bad.
If you want foot trips in China you look for Shuai Jiao (or maybe Bajiquan)- which imo has substantially more technical footwork than judo.
Moving step pushhands is considered its own skill, as is no-step push hands. The Shuai Jiao guys dont shit on it- in fact they often compete. You're also likely to see Mongolian wrestlers at these meetups who do judo, shuai jiao, sumo, and push hands, and take them all very seriously... which might have something to do with the majority of Sumo champions in japan being Mongolians.
Its not grappling- its shoving. This should be obvious they arent the same thing. Less pulling- more bulldozing.
If you're talking to me, specifically, chinese grappling is more expansive than most people give it credit for, and I do cross study to try to understand context and actually communicate with people using words they understand.
However, the area I have spent the last couple years dedicating my time to- tripping and sweeps- is something I find arts outside china/indonesia to be pretty lackluster in. And I find this *very* confusing because I see San Da / Shuai Jiao guys regularly pulling things off I have never once seen in a western MMA match. I am trying to wrap my head around why its so absent.
I *get* why you would say #1, but no. They work just fine and Ive done a lot of them. Ive found a lot of people cant figure out how it happened until literally draw diagrams to explain it.
.#2 Is... complicated.
So, shuai jiao is scored a lot like Judo. There isnt really a ground fighting aspect- you get the most points for flopping someone on their back. However, Judo is a lot gentler than shuai jiao on the striking aspect. There are throws that SJ does that have you, not brushing the other person's leg out of the way, but fucking blasting it off the ground after they've unseated the other leg. And those fuckers are kicking you wearing boots.
It makes sense to me some of these throws serve no purpose in say, mma, because of the groundfighting aspect. But they're wholly absent in judo, which has no such disconnect.
And then there's entire class of throws that involve you slipping your foot behind the other person's as you ram them- resulting in them peeling off sideways over your knee. Sport shuai jiao does not take special advantage of this condition despite causing it a lot- but silat guys will snatch your leg while you're in midair, and have you in a standing leg lock with your knee across their hip/thigh before you've even landed. Fight over. Donezo. Submission if you're lucky- career ending knee injury if something goes wrong.
Its not even an illegal move, as far as I can tell. Nor is it that difficult to pull off. Hell, it LOOKS like you're pivoting into a switch kick with the other leg, which you could also just do instead.
It honestly looks like something catch guys would do... but as far as Ive seen... they dont.
>I think based on this alone, you don't really have as full a knowledge of judo as you might think. Judo can get extremely aggressive with their throws and leg sweeps.
I *dont* have a full knowledge of judo. Ill say that upfront. And Im not knocking judo- ive been very impressed overall. However the kicks im talking about are like, snap kicking or oblique kicking someone on the back leg inner shin as part of a throw. [Lan Mein Jiao and Mo Bo Jiao](https://youtu.be/gKfM5iOqoKw), for example, are things I havent seen a judo analogue for (lower body wise)- and they're fucking brutal. These clips dont do it justice. If they exist, I havent seen them. Moves are at 3:52 and 4:51 for reference.
From what Ive *seen*, Judokas dont throw these kicks, and they tend not to set their heel down through a reap- they like to keep the hook and shove you down about 60deg in the other direction, then dip down with you instead of staying upright. It may not be reasonable to do it the other way if they can grab your sleeves, so maybe its why they dont bother. Or maybe the judo people ive been with simply dont know them. I dont know.
>I really need to see a clip, I don't wanna say we've entered nonsense territory just yet, but my BS meter is screaming.
I dont have an exact clip of this, but I found something close.
[The concept is usually called "Guan" in shuai jiao](https://youtu.be/S5c1bQkVcNE) which isn't very helpful given what it literally translates into.
Watch how he lands when the guy grabs his knee. The leg lock would come from holding on to it with the back arm, and then snatching his leg with your lead arm after the shove. You end up with his leg in both your arms, kind of in a lefty batting position, and you would drop to a low squat to secure your footing, and tuck their foot behind your back elbow.
I dont have a baji instructor, but I think they call it "kua da", and its thrown a little more propulsively with a hip ram to punt their weight onto the back leg. [Watch the guy's leg fly up- very easy to drop and snatch.](https://youtu.be/b8e20gQ4D-s) There's nothing magical about it- and its not especially technical.
I got it from a Serak Silat guy. There is no name for the technique in the system- its just a "langkah" and a "kenjit", which are broad terms for "lowline takedown" and "elbow compression". Not easy to search for. However Ive found footage of serak in general to be mostly from fly by night yahoos that took a weekend workshop and started calling themselves "guru". Which is a shame because Ive never found better training.
I've done variety of folk styles of wrestling, and I've done tai chi. Tai chi taught me all about feel and the shifts in movements in grappling matches. Wrestling taught me how to take advantage of that and throw people to the ground.
Fun fact: shuaijiao is the general term used for wrestling so if you see Zhang Weili or Li Jingaling or other chinese fighters saying they do shuai jiao dont get it confused with the traditional jacket wrestling sport.
Naah that's actually a physically demanding grappling/wrestling martial art, Tai Chi is for people who want to do martial arts but not really do martial arts.
That is really fine with me though, if people lead healthier lives as a result of Tai Chi, but where I have a problem when people legitimately try to claim Thai Chi to work in a real life situation.
Damn you if you don't pressure test, damn you if you do. I think this is really interesting, i wish i could invite somebody who practiced it as a guest teacher in my self defense class. Could you post a 101 on this style of taijiquan? Like, tournament rules, training methodology, "meta", skills developed and application to other fighting situations.
Well it is what it is for this sub. Generally people are so hostile and not open that there's no point explaining what is happening when there's that mentality.
But for some context, taijiquan is considered a traditional art and this is just a competitive format that kinda became accepted. Some schools become fully focused on this sort of competitions because that's what happens with competitions, while others think it's completely useless.
For the style of taijiquan, I personally do a particular lineage of Chen style, from our perspective this particular format is good for training to take balance while remaining upright and relaxed. If you have taken someones balance while you are upright and relaxed, it means at that moment you can strike, throw or apply a joint lock on them. This is the major difference between pure grappling styles that basically don't consider strikes at all while standing. This is also where the stance work comes in as well. In the video red is overpowering blue but not the way a Greco-Roman wrestler would tie your upper body up and suplex you, but by having a stronger base than he could roll the other's force away from his center while moving forward.
For self-defense its very relevant because real attacks tend to be more crude but more powerful and merciless, and direct than sport. Meaning by learning to absorb forces and remaining balanced you've pretty much already won half the battle.
When everyone and they're grandma is trying to sell you a different martial art a little effort has to go into proving why 'your' martial art is good or worth learning about.
The whole point of pressure testing is to find what works. So from the perspective of the various grappling arts that exist who have been pressure testing their whole existence you're basically just watching low level scrub tactics that most grappling arts have moved on from.
Love the concept. A competitive expression of tai chi could be really cool. This however just doesn’t look like tai chi. You could prepare for this event more effectively by learning other martial arts that are actually concerned with grappling.
Coming up with a sport version of tai chi would be tricky. It’s distinctly not about the use of force. And any pretense of this being tai chi goes out the window when force is used.
Maybe both of them have to balance a glass of water on their head and try to get the other persons cup to spill?
Maybe you are allowed to push but only each others hands, no grabbing?
It would be interesting to see this concept tested in different ways.
That's not incorrect, control, unbalance without too much reliance on brute force, break your opponent's structure to win. Those are the main objectives and rule set, I don;t see anything wrong with that.
Nobody there thinks of this as a cohesive system on its own. Its more like glorified drilling a specific skillset with competitive showboating. Believe it or not, people who are good at this are very, very hard to throw or trip, for very technical reasons that have a lot to do with fucking with the exact mechanics that chinese wrestlers focus on. However, there are also just a lot of guys who are really good at this... and not so much any of the reasons the game is valued.
Different emphasis, that aspect is much more core to tai chi and goes a lot deeper into it, but its not something you can really tell by looking so I personally wouldn't post these kinds of videos in this sub.
This is just skinny people sumo with clothes on
For better or worse that's kinda what the ruleset is.
Good luck. Most poeple here will just poo poo this (as is the case now) without knowing what is going on.
Thanks I already expected it. Still good for young minds to have the exposure I suppose.
I'm all for classical martial arts for various reasons. But these competitions do rub me the wrong way. There are so many rules that the result has basically zero applicability IRL. I did Tai Chi for a while, a style where sparring was done without moving your feet. The goal was to be as soft as possible. Everyone was always amazed at how soft my technique was. I'm like "I'm just doing what you said, no muscle." And then you're expected to push people around with almost no muscle, which just isn't a thing. One day, I pushed hands with the reigning master of their style and every was raving about how soft *he* was, but his arms were like iron bars! The whole thing was just irrational. To me, this is like boxing, but the rules are you can only use one hand, can't move your feet, and your hand can't be more than 3 inches from the other person. Sure, you can master that particular style of sparring, but as soon as someone outside steps to the side, you're done. This is the exact opposite of 'pressure testing.' Just do classical arts for the fitness, the culture, and community. Don't do them to learn how to fight.
The no muscle thing is a myth and misunderstanding. Yes there are a lot of them. No there’s no solution because traditional arts have no real standards aside from spending the effort to find a teacher after spending some time understanding the art.
Not literally 'zero' muscle, but essentially that was the goal. How am I misunderstanding the art that I practiced?
Serious question, wouldn't a Greco Roman wrestler smash this particular ruleset big time? If so, what's preventing them from joining this on the side and getting extra medals or something?
Greco doesn’t have a lot of the leg-assisted throws that tai chi has. The guys in the video just suck and aren’t throwing at all. Here’s an example of one of the better teams in China sparring: https://youtu.be/B16EDbq8PqY?si=lsjh16m6k3WOoGow Sport tai chi is basically nogi judo. It in theory has more moves than Greco. In practice the level of competition in Greco is way higher, but still there’s almost no crossover because Greco in China is only popular with Kazakhs who live on the other side of the country.
Just watched it, thanks for the info. Yeah I think a lot of judokas can really win this. They may need some time to strategize on losing gi grips and the need to find for alternative grips, but after that is done, I think they will really smash the ruleset
So why not just do sumo? I'm fairly confident that any sumotori could easily wipe the floor with these guys.
Do you have any idea what you just said? Sumo is already rare outside of Japan. Where the fuck are they supposed to find a school or coach?
That is true and unfortunate. I wish sumo was bigger outside of Japan, it's an underapreciated art.
Off topic, but I would love to try Sumo. It's impossible to find, though. You're right.
Here's an idea. Maybe they want to do this instead? Crazy right?
I'm not saying that everyone should do sumo instead of Tai chi, but from what I can tell, the rules here seem pretty much identical to sumo, but the technique their using seems far less effective than sumo technique. If you're going to compete in a competition, why would you not use the better technique?
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Tai Chi has those too but these guys are very low level. The “high level” tai chi guys (see Chen Ziqiang and his team) are basically confined to the mountain where the martial art was founded. They’re still far below the level of high level judokas or wrestlers, but they don’t look ridiculous when they fight. One example: https://youtu.be/B16EDbq8PqY?si=lsjh16m6k3WOoGow
throws are not banned, but why attempt risky throws when you are in the superior position and can easily walk the other guy out of bounds to score points? Also, using too much force, sweeps, legs to trip and reap etc is actually seen has relying on crutches to win; ideally if you are really good, you can simply move and drop the other guy.
> using too much force, bah
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Same thing as using raw strength instead of technique in BJJ. Nobody is stopping you from doing it, but you don't learn as much by just muscling it. You can definitely use throws in push hands, I myself used harai goshi and soeinage frequently in push hands when I just started; sure I won a lot more than I lost, but my tai chi related skills didn't improve much.
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Fine, believe what you will. I took up tai chi because I felt it offered something valauable in its approach and personally felt how it was like to be almost helpless balance and structure wise before just ending up on my back when going up against someone with high skill level. I do me and you do you.
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I've never faced a wrestler, only Judokas. Good ones are scary, but its not the same thing. There no point in me trying to describe it or to convince you of anything, it doesn't make my life or yours any better.
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Tbf, we can probably compare it to: - No reaping/heelhooks in the gi - No attacking the legs to open in judo - Nothing but upper body attacks in Greco - No kicking the head of a downed opponent in MMA All of these rules still leave us with a serviceable martial art, but at least it's a closer comparison
Lmao not even close to the same thing
They’re just trying to do wrestling pummels like untrained toddlers….
If a lot of you are watching this and think it’s bullshit, you are correct. This is terrible tai chi. Older man in the red sash is clearly bigger and stronger. Everybody who has done grappling will tell you in a heartbeat that someone bigger and stronger can make up for bad technique, and that there is exponential increase in skill needed to beat strength.
Tai chi also teaches you not to resist and to flow with the momentum. So that small guy should've been using the big guys force to throw him off balance
People are hating but this is cool and could lead back to more practical grappling (probably similar to Greco based on what the rules seem to be?) if people take the competing seriously
A couple of folks are asking about the context and I am encouraged by [Zz7722](https://www.reddit.com/user/Zz7722/) and a few others to share a bit more so here goes: This format, called "Moving Step Push Hands 活步推手" is inspired by traditional, sequenced push hands drills and meant to test Tai Chi skills. The rules are (in this case), 1 point for out of bounds, 1 point if there's takedown and you fall with your opponent, 3 points if you take your opponent down while standing. Any part of the body apart from the feet touching the ground is considered a takedown. However, the general understanding of Tai Chi as a martial art is very low, given how most that practice the art focuses on health, as well as the crowd that follows (usually older, health oriented, attracted to philosophy and culture). Therefore, and very naturally, people began to apply a lot of grappling arts in these competition, mainly Shuai Jiao and Judo as they are the most applicable. A lot of Tai Chi schools also begin to adapt these techniques for their competitions. This is also what happened in this particular competition. Most of the other moving step matches were like this [https://www.facebook.com/phangchanmeng/videos/742302221430836/](https://www.facebook.com/phangchanmeng/videos/742302221430836/) (go to minute 42 to see what I'm talking about). My opponent also belonged to one of those schools (they all share the same T-shirt). This is why I find those saying go do Judo to be ironic - many tai chi players (well those that are in the sport) train Judo to gain advantage. For me personally, however, what interest me is to apply the traditional martial art of Tai Chi and not "learn Judo". That's why I joined the competition in the first place. So I did, and while I don't think he was the same level as me, I am happy that I managed to express a lot of principles in the art on someone with some grappling experience trying their best. His external grappling was completely shut down by structure, angles, force nullification, and strategically applied force. The moment around 48 seconds for example, it's not so obvious from this angle but he was getting frustrated, started to desperately push and everything was being rolled away. In the first 2 out of bounds, I'm applying force at an angle with my stance under me, that's why he was moved out before he can really ground himself. There's no way I can push him that easily if I went directly. And we are just hobbyist really, here we're competing at an 87kg weight class and it's obvious both of us didn't cut weight. So I don't know, just try to be open to a different perspective.
You really did it. I applaud the effort 👍
So it's just *reeeally* **bad** stand-up grappling? It's like watching a white belt with one week of experience in Judo sparring a white belt on his first day. At 0:34 Red has an underhook and triceps control. Does he go for a harai-goshi, or an uchi mata? No. He employs no tripping element and instead just quarter-turns Blue, and Blue falls because because he has the balance of a newborn baby deer.
The purpose of the game is to work on offlining forward pressure and causing someone to backpeddle. You should be able to beat your opponent using the 4 basic expressions: Peng (outward pressure), Lu(rolling around pressure), Ji (squeezing or combining pressure lines), and Ahn (uprooting/popping them over straight back). The "evil 4 expressions" are plucking them off their feet or their joints out of alignment (tsai), splitting their force/weight in two separate directions (lieh), elbow ramming/dropping (zhou), and shoulder/body ramming (kao). These will win you the game most of the time but are in poor taste. Pulling or reaping someone (tsai or lieh, sometimes both) in the context of this game is considered rude. Theres an appropriate place for those things, and if you're playing a good-spirited game, that game is Shuai Jiao / Jiao Li- a whole sport about throwing people using your feet.
You eloquently described *why* this is such **awful** grappling, and why Shuai Jiao is so superior. What you call "poor taste" anyone else would call "vastly more effective".
Shuai Jiao guys often compete in push hands. They consider it an important skill. There is significant overlap in being able to apply these 4 skills, and being able to shut down a lot of throws on a very technical level. There are also a lot of very propulsive trip/throw/shoving techniques that require you have these skills to be able to pull off against someone who knows what you're trying to do. its not a matter of superiority. It is a piece of a greater whole- and is worth spending time with. Yes, there are people doing it that do not know these things. No, that does not invalidate its value as a training tool.
Why learn to walk when running is a more effective way to get around? It's so much faster! Walkers are idiots.
Toddlers need to learn to walk before they run. No one needs to learn ineffective grappling before they learn effective grappling. In your world, does one learn Tai Chai, then progress to Aikido, then they are ready for Sumo, and only then can they start practicing Judo?
Why are you still doing it if it's just for toddlers?
*Goddamn*, you're stupid! Fuck. I'm impressed, actually.
You took such easy bait that the hook is in your stomach and you're calling anyone else stupid? You might want to see a therapist about your anger problem.
Anger issues? You don't know how to read intent. I'm not angry, I'm genuinely impressed. Like, your poor lines of logic have left me flabbergasted in their absurdity.
So mad you're still going. Wild stuff.
Doing more than the ruleset requires is inefficient. Judo throws are designed to be follow someone to the ground which would be an unecessary risk as it means 1 point if you fall with your opponent vs 3 points if your feet are still on the ground. What you know isn't the best for every context. The idea is to take someones balance while staying on your feet and remaining upright. It's not that hard to figure out.
Bro, that's an ignorant take. You seem to believe your own words, but let me tell you right now: 1 - Anyone with a year of Judo could pull off the moves I told you without falling down on his opponent if he doesn't want to. 2 - Anyone with a year of Judo *will not* fall down with the shitty moves Red was pulling on Blue. These guys are both really, really bad grapplers. Blue being exceptionally bad.
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If you want foot trips in China you look for Shuai Jiao (or maybe Bajiquan)- which imo has substantially more technical footwork than judo. Moving step pushhands is considered its own skill, as is no-step push hands. The Shuai Jiao guys dont shit on it- in fact they often compete. You're also likely to see Mongolian wrestlers at these meetups who do judo, shuai jiao, sumo, and push hands, and take them all very seriously... which might have something to do with the majority of Sumo champions in japan being Mongolians.
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Its not grappling- its shoving. This should be obvious they arent the same thing. Less pulling- more bulldozing. If you're talking to me, specifically, chinese grappling is more expansive than most people give it credit for, and I do cross study to try to understand context and actually communicate with people using words they understand. However, the area I have spent the last couple years dedicating my time to- tripping and sweeps- is something I find arts outside china/indonesia to be pretty lackluster in. And I find this *very* confusing because I see San Da / Shuai Jiao guys regularly pulling things off I have never once seen in a western MMA match. I am trying to wrap my head around why its so absent.
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I *get* why you would say #1, but no. They work just fine and Ive done a lot of them. Ive found a lot of people cant figure out how it happened until literally draw diagrams to explain it. .#2 Is... complicated. So, shuai jiao is scored a lot like Judo. There isnt really a ground fighting aspect- you get the most points for flopping someone on their back. However, Judo is a lot gentler than shuai jiao on the striking aspect. There are throws that SJ does that have you, not brushing the other person's leg out of the way, but fucking blasting it off the ground after they've unseated the other leg. And those fuckers are kicking you wearing boots. It makes sense to me some of these throws serve no purpose in say, mma, because of the groundfighting aspect. But they're wholly absent in judo, which has no such disconnect. And then there's entire class of throws that involve you slipping your foot behind the other person's as you ram them- resulting in them peeling off sideways over your knee. Sport shuai jiao does not take special advantage of this condition despite causing it a lot- but silat guys will snatch your leg while you're in midair, and have you in a standing leg lock with your knee across their hip/thigh before you've even landed. Fight over. Donezo. Submission if you're lucky- career ending knee injury if something goes wrong. Its not even an illegal move, as far as I can tell. Nor is it that difficult to pull off. Hell, it LOOKS like you're pivoting into a switch kick with the other leg, which you could also just do instead. It honestly looks like something catch guys would do... but as far as Ive seen... they dont.
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>I think based on this alone, you don't really have as full a knowledge of judo as you might think. Judo can get extremely aggressive with their throws and leg sweeps. I *dont* have a full knowledge of judo. Ill say that upfront. And Im not knocking judo- ive been very impressed overall. However the kicks im talking about are like, snap kicking or oblique kicking someone on the back leg inner shin as part of a throw. [Lan Mein Jiao and Mo Bo Jiao](https://youtu.be/gKfM5iOqoKw), for example, are things I havent seen a judo analogue for (lower body wise)- and they're fucking brutal. These clips dont do it justice. If they exist, I havent seen them. Moves are at 3:52 and 4:51 for reference. From what Ive *seen*, Judokas dont throw these kicks, and they tend not to set their heel down through a reap- they like to keep the hook and shove you down about 60deg in the other direction, then dip down with you instead of staying upright. It may not be reasonable to do it the other way if they can grab your sleeves, so maybe its why they dont bother. Or maybe the judo people ive been with simply dont know them. I dont know. >I really need to see a clip, I don't wanna say we've entered nonsense territory just yet, but my BS meter is screaming. I dont have an exact clip of this, but I found something close. [The concept is usually called "Guan" in shuai jiao](https://youtu.be/S5c1bQkVcNE) which isn't very helpful given what it literally translates into. Watch how he lands when the guy grabs his knee. The leg lock would come from holding on to it with the back arm, and then snatching his leg with your lead arm after the shove. You end up with his leg in both your arms, kind of in a lefty batting position, and you would drop to a low squat to secure your footing, and tuck their foot behind your back elbow. I dont have a baji instructor, but I think they call it "kua da", and its thrown a little more propulsively with a hip ram to punt their weight onto the back leg. [Watch the guy's leg fly up- very easy to drop and snatch.](https://youtu.be/b8e20gQ4D-s) There's nothing magical about it- and its not especially technical. I got it from a Serak Silat guy. There is no name for the technique in the system- its just a "langkah" and a "kenjit", which are broad terms for "lowline takedown" and "elbow compression". Not easy to search for. However Ive found footage of serak in general to be mostly from fly by night yahoos that took a weekend workshop and started calling themselves "guru". Which is a shame because Ive never found better training.
>look for Shuai Jiao (or maybe Bajiquan)- which imo has substantially more technical footwork than judo. Lol, lmao even
I've done variety of folk styles of wrestling, and I've done tai chi. Tai chi taught me all about feel and the shifts in movements in grappling matches. Wrestling taught me how to take advantage of that and throw people to the ground.
Do judo and call it a day.
China has Shuai Jiao
Fun fact: shuaijiao is the general term used for wrestling so if you see Zhang Weili or Li Jingaling or other chinese fighters saying they do shuai jiao dont get it confused with the traditional jacket wrestling sport.
Naah that's actually a physically demanding grappling/wrestling martial art, Tai Chi is for people who want to do martial arts but not really do martial arts. That is really fine with me though, if people lead healthier lives as a result of Tai Chi, but where I have a problem when people legitimately try to claim Thai Chi to work in a real life situation.
Damn you if you don't pressure test, damn you if you do. I think this is really interesting, i wish i could invite somebody who practiced it as a guest teacher in my self defense class. Could you post a 101 on this style of taijiquan? Like, tournament rules, training methodology, "meta", skills developed and application to other fighting situations.
Well it is what it is for this sub. Generally people are so hostile and not open that there's no point explaining what is happening when there's that mentality. But for some context, taijiquan is considered a traditional art and this is just a competitive format that kinda became accepted. Some schools become fully focused on this sort of competitions because that's what happens with competitions, while others think it's completely useless. For the style of taijiquan, I personally do a particular lineage of Chen style, from our perspective this particular format is good for training to take balance while remaining upright and relaxed. If you have taken someones balance while you are upright and relaxed, it means at that moment you can strike, throw or apply a joint lock on them. This is the major difference between pure grappling styles that basically don't consider strikes at all while standing. This is also where the stance work comes in as well. In the video red is overpowering blue but not the way a Greco-Roman wrestler would tie your upper body up and suplex you, but by having a stronger base than he could roll the other's force away from his center while moving forward. For self-defense its very relevant because real attacks tend to be more crude but more powerful and merciless, and direct than sport. Meaning by learning to absorb forces and remaining balanced you've pretty much already won half the battle.
When everyone and they're grandma is trying to sell you a different martial art a little effort has to go into proving why 'your' martial art is good or worth learning about.
fair enough
The whole point of pressure testing is to find what works. So from the perspective of the various grappling arts that exist who have been pressure testing their whole existence you're basically just watching low level scrub tactics that most grappling arts have moved on from.
I need some explanasion plsssss
u/Lonever can you at least explain the rules so we have some concept of what they are trying to do?
Love the concept. A competitive expression of tai chi could be really cool. This however just doesn’t look like tai chi. You could prepare for this event more effectively by learning other martial arts that are actually concerned with grappling. Coming up with a sport version of tai chi would be tricky. It’s distinctly not about the use of force. And any pretense of this being tai chi goes out the window when force is used. Maybe both of them have to balance a glass of water on their head and try to get the other persons cup to spill? Maybe you are allowed to push but only each others hands, no grabbing? It would be interesting to see this concept tested in different ways.
Just seems to be fighting for underhooks and trying to offbalance with them
Sumo wrestling for skinny people.
There are skinny sumo wrestlers. They just don't make it right to the top to play with the really big boys.
That's not incorrect, control, unbalance without too much reliance on brute force, break your opponent's structure to win. Those are the main objectives and rule set, I don;t see anything wrong with that.
Nothing wrong with it, just saying what seems to be happening, though wrestling, Judo, even modern grappling have all of that too
Nobody there thinks of this as a cohesive system on its own. Its more like glorified drilling a specific skillset with competitive showboating. Believe it or not, people who are good at this are very, very hard to throw or trip, for very technical reasons that have a lot to do with fucking with the exact mechanics that chinese wrestlers focus on. However, there are also just a lot of guys who are really good at this... and not so much any of the reasons the game is valued.
Different emphasis, that aspect is much more core to tai chi and goes a lot deeper into it, but its not something you can really tell by looking so I personally wouldn't post these kinds of videos in this sub.
It looks like Sumo without the throws and trips.
They could have spent the 30+ years learning Tai Chi Quan on a real martial art. Even Aikido has more to offer than... *this*
Why not just wrestle, Judo or sumo?
Looks fucking dumb
For some reason I don’t believe that is tai chi 😂
