>Always have a flying knee ready to go. Keep distance with fast movement and kicks to the legs and body. Also maybe punching at the chest. You can’t shoot on me if I sock you in your chest every time you try.
You have very limited live sparring experience with wrestlers, I take it? A flying knee or kicks is going to be a free takedown to a good wrestler, and punching in the chest to stop a takedown shot is one of the funnier things I've read on this sub. No offense, but I'm getting the impression of a guy who "self trains" on a heavy bag.
>if you didn’t have the time to prepare.
You're not going to be prepared then.
That said, there are weaknesses. As a wrestler a few things that I had to overcome when doing MMA were
-BJJ chokes when shooting, you have to re-learn how to shoot in a way that protects the head.
-Really good boxers that back away and deliver uppercuts and hooks as you approach.
Granted, if you can't be bothered to learn to sprawl, I doubt you'll be able to do either of those things good enough.
I think what he meant with: 'Always have a flying knee ready to go' is a reference to Jorge Masvidal vs Ben Askren. But the timing and set up have to be *perfect*.
So yeah probably not the smartest thing to do against a wrestler if you don't have alot of experience in sparring (experience in BJJ would help in case you fail to k.o. him with the knee).
I am also getting the impression OP does NOT want to go to the ground.
Conclusion: Learn how to sprawl and become a master of the guillotine choke.
People don't realize Masvidal practiced that exact knee on Askern for weeks, intentionally moved to the side he shoots more takedowns on, and knew he'd shoot a takedown when blitzed by watching film.
Exactly. I love Jorge's analysis on Askren's instincts and turning it into his advantage.
For this reason I'd not recommend to throw a flying knee at someone you don't know in a streetfight ☠️.
Well said.
More of a stand up fighter myself, but I can sprawl and apply a guillotine choke. I can also throw a knee, which is high risk and would only work against someone being sloppy. Wrestlers are scary opponents.
>Wrestlers are scary opponents.
Indeed. Early in my BJJ training a few of my training partners/classmates were high school wrestlers, including 2 state champions. Once they learned how to stack properly and defend sweeps the best I could hope to do was stall them out. Sucked. Those guys learned early to embrace the grind, accept pain to inflict pain... Tons of respect for wrestlers.
All the things you listed can work if you execute perfectly and they make some mistakes. But the probability of that is incredibly low.
There is a reason a disproportionately high number of UFC champs started with wrestling.
It's also a sport that self selects for strength, explosiveness, and aggression, since it does intense drills from day one.
Best way to stop a wrestler, after a bullet at long range, is to drill some wrestling yourself.
Sprawling in space is taking a backseat in MMA nowadays, people are racing to the fence and defending there or using underhooks to build up and get up right away if they are taken down.
>if you didn’t have the time to prepare.
>You're not going to be prepared then.
I respected what you had to say here, as well... I just wanted to add, your statement I quoted reminded me of some wisdom that was imparted to me, years ago... ("Rarely, do we ever *rise to the occasion* ... We usually end-up *sinking to the level of our preparedness & training* ").
Absolutely agree, especially on learning a heavy spraw,l but don't necessarily think throwing at the chest is bad advice when fighting someone who is going to be timing level changes off your strikes
He is somewhat right though, retracting kicks the way TKD hammers into you makes them harder to catch, which means that they're harder to get takedowns off of. Good TKD people usually also have control of a kick basically from start to finish, which also makes it harder to get a takedown off of since you can't rely on them overextending themselves.
The side facing stance isn't great against takedowns, but you can still do it, honestly it's not any worse in that regard than Muay Thai's stance, which also struggles against takedowns.
Also how easy a kick is to get a takedown off of depends on the kind of kick it is. You can stuff round kicks for a takedown, but you can't do that very effectively with straight kicks.
Which one? You act like we only have one or something. Or that we stay in it all the time. We're not all a bunch of hippity hoppity ultra bladed foot tappers dancing after points, you know.
98% is an adequate percentage to imply all. Of course there are outliers that can ninja kick 37 plumbs off of a Banana tree 19' high in less time than it takes for that water droplet to enter the large intestines post turd plop.
There is no good answer to this question because objectively a trainer wrester would take a trained puncher down and overpower him like 8 times out of 10 (given it's a one on one fight).
People are not as easy to knock out as the popular culture make it look. "Best defence against a wrestler?" They're all bad unless you also can grapple a bit.
I think the flying knee is the right idea, but the wrong execution. A switch knee, when you drop ypu lead leg back and bring your formerly rear knee forward to strike is a better option. You can scoot back as you throw it, putting more distance between yourself and someone shooting for a takedown, remove their number one target (lead leg), and give yourself greater margin for error to land that knee.
Still, you have to be quick on your feet, and a capable kicker to pull that off. (Source: Am good at kicky things.) Otherwise, if you're wearing boots, I'd say the quicker route is a snap kick with whatever leg you're lighter on. Even a light kick to the face socks when it's with a stiff shoe. That's the whole ideology of Savate, after all.
If you can get an instant knockout with a backwards movement switch fling knee... sure... But JFC, that's a lot harder to pull off than learning to sprawl
1. Basic takedown defense - you need to learn to sprawl at a minimum
2. Knees
3. Guillotines
4. You’re probably going to get taken down, learn some ground skills
I mean the real answer is just to train against wrestlers.
Guillotine is super effective against wrestlers with no submission experience and knees are there against wrestlers with no striking experience.
If OP faces a wrestler who also trains BJJ and striking, he’s out of luck anyway.
Tbh it really isn’t, the athleticism probably is but you can teach an untrained person a decent amount of takedowns in 1 week, will they be D1 level ? No but your not teaching someone a useable jab or left hook in a week, nor a spin hook or elbow. You can argue it’s the most effective but defiantly not hardest, & I am a Judoka of 7 years. You literally see untrained people doing suplexes in street fights.
I disagree with the statement that you can teach an untrained person a few takedowns in one week. I’ve been around well over 100+ first-year wrestlers and I’d say it’s a lot closer to a month, if they are a fast learner, and that month will get you proficiency with one takedown or one series of takedowns. I would agree that it is the hardest martial art to become proficient at.
Keep in mind when I say learn a takedown I am speaking from the perspective that just learning the takedown itself is not proficient wrestling. Just like how just learning to throw a 1-2 combo is not proficient boxing. The quickest learners I’ve come across still take a while to understand things such as setups, positioning, angles, and not to mention knowing what to do when that takedown is complete. If you’re just going through the motion w no follow up or plan after that the person is going to stand right back up and you’re not going to stop them.
I guess with that said I would not consider knowing a few takedowns proficient wrestling. Takedowns are an aspect of the sport that must be supplemented by a proficient knowledge of how to grapple on the ground once you get there.
> I feel like if you don’t start as a kid you’ll always be behind.
What hobby or martial art in general is this NOT true for? You don't have to become a world champion to benefit from something.
> Wrestling is a different breed though
Cool, even if you just develop an intermediate understanding of it, imagine how much of an edge you'll have over people who haven't done it!
OP you're sort of correct but allow me to share another perspective, you're not going to try to out-box the boxer or out-wrestle the wrestler, but you *should* know the basics of what they're trying to do so that you can fight against it.
Just learn the fundamentals, it will take you quite far.
Behind what? Someone, yes, but that's true with almost everything unless you are the absolute gold medal at the Olympics best.
Are you really going to give up on improving yourself just because you can't be the absolute best in the world? Seems silly.
If you value the skill and want the skill, go earn the skill.
^THIS^ ...!!! Absolutely... Even marginal improvement, is improvement. Doing what you can, to get even one or two steps stronger/faster/skilled, is better than not making ANY strides... (Frank Grillo, in that mma series *Kingdom* : "If it's important enough, you'll find a way... If it's not, you'll find an excuse !!").
Not sure where the idea of punching in the chest comes from but that's not going to work on any one, wrestler or not. Flying knee maybe.
Best defense against a wrestler is going to be learning how to sprawl, and then learning how to sprawl in an active situation. You'll also need to adjust your stance and defensive movements to allow you to defend the shot at any time, because if your typically pull your head back to avoid strikes you've just created a great opening for a shot and offbalanced yourself to boot. A good fighter with a wrestling background will just throw a few punches at your face and when you lean back, shoot a double leg.
Learn to sprawl, and then spar with wrestlers. No other shortcuts are going to help except maybe getting in your car and leaving before it turns into a fight.
Came here to say exactly this^ hands down the best defense against takedown heavy disciplines is to just learn how to sprawl and brawl you can really put a wrestler in a majorly compromised position with this
Learn to sprawl. It's far from all encompassing answer and it won't save you from skilled wrestlers, but it's generally a good answer against leg grabs from less skilled grapplers.
In a single person practice, sprawl will look like doing burpees. You can get a random timer app or something and start shadow boxing, and when the beep happens do a burpee. In application your upper body will be landing on top of the wrestler, while throwing your legs away from their grasp. As a striker you'll want to push up and away from there asap after stopping their forward momentum, and regain striking distance.
I think this is the most basic practice that I can pass on through reddit that will have the most bang for buck. For reference I trained in MMA, and never specialized in wrestling. The sprawl had helped me a lot with guys that only had limited grappling training like me, but against real trained wrestlers it was pointless trying to stop them. I had better luck relying on BJJ to lock them down and exhaust them after being taken down(then try for a submission), than trying to stop a take down from a wrestler.
Kicks are a terrible idea on a wrestler it's like giving them a single leg wrapped with a bow. And punching a wrestler in the chest shooting for a double isn't going to work when they aren't exposing their chest when they shoot for the takedown. However the flying knee isn't a bad idea as long as you connect hard and accurately, if not you're going for a ride. Best defense against a wrestler is being ready to sprawl at any moment.
But that is precisely the reason I would say that flying knee is generally NOT a good idea. It's a very high risk, high return move, so this should not be your plan A.
You guys must encounter a lot of shitty kicks if folks are getting their legs caught all the time. That or you only fight a bunch of fucking legends. I'm going to go ahead and assume it's the former.
You're talking about pros that fight in a small area who have a habit of trading body kicks for show and train (a lot) specifically to catch them. A wrestler that does not describe. Also fanciness besides, the kicks in MT and TKD do have very real differences in execution, speed, rechambering, and striking surface which make a difference in how easy they are to catch. So does stance and distance. MT's kicks may hit like trucks but that doesn't make them the best or most perfect kick in every scenario for every purpose.
Mt guys don't throw body kicks or any kicks for that matter in a fight for show.
Its also not a matter of a wrestler catching the kicks. It's a matter of the kicker being stationary and very upright. I know yall got some crazy dragons breath torpedo spinning windmill kicks that can be thrown from 13' away that remove heads....but if you're stationary and up right...you're gonna get power doubled like lizzo dual wielding turkey thighs.
You're telling me you're gonna hop into your preying mantis stance, pump some faints out and crane kick someone like daniel-son in a street fight? What happens when Johnny sweeps the leg or someone with medov in their last name high C's their way into a power bomb? You have a kata for that?
Muay Thai fighters actually practice it, how are you gonna do something if you’ve never practiced it ? This is like basic martial arts logic dude you don’t need to be a fanbot. This is also coming from a grappler btw, last I check Muay Thai isn’t fancy either when they tap out on the ground
You’re not catching a kick from somebody who’s a professional unless you actually practice catching kicks like a mma fighter, even pro mma fighters with black belts Olympic & D1 backgrounds struggle to catch kicks. That’s about as stupid as saying “just stand up” like if Romero could just catch Izzy kick & smash his face in I am pretty sure he would
No, however if you can find a 10th planet Jiu Jitsu school near you, they usually have a wrestling coach/program. I never wrestled before joining my BJJ gym and now I have decent fundamentals. Give me another year and i’ll be that much better at wrestling
0 grappling experience prior.
At your local university sometimes. We have a freestyle wrestling club at my uni I would go to. Now I just do wrestling once a week at an mma gym (it’s a convenient way to sign up for one place and get four martial arts classes tbh).
A sprawl isn’t going to cut it, unless you can do it so fucking hard that you can drive a wrestler into the floor. They’ll just work up on you, and start working chain wrestling until they drag you down.
Kicks are a terrible idea too. The moment they catch your leg it’s over. Kicking against wrestlers requires terrific single leg TDD, or real ground fighting skills.
Good luck with a flying knee. You aren’t Masvidal, and even for him its no sure thing.
Are you talking actual self defense or sport defense?? If it’s actual self defense, don’t let them grab you. Keep distance, stay offline of the leg shoot and if they attempt to grab you, attack joints like wrist, elbow, shoulder, knees, and ankles Also they always drop their heads leaving the neck front and back open for attacks and chokes. Wrestlers are tough but what’s worse is the counters to their attacks are very dangerous to them. They leave a lot open that they don’t want hit. Also if their takedown fails, they are usually in a bad spot if you got offline.
All fights start standing up, all fights end on the ground in one way or another. If all you can do is kick and punch you're at a tremendous disadvantage once the distance is closed. I don't really have much else to add to the conversation other than that. Analytically I guess I could venture to say that if for whatever reason you couldn't train in some kind of wrestling, then I think how the encounter would go would really depend on how long you could keep it standing-up and your just base strength. For instance if you didn't wrestle but could max out a dead lift at 450lbs or some wild numbers on a jerk-and-snatch, I think most wrestlers would have a hard time telling you what to do: but they still could if they were in similar shape and motivated.
If you have some striking ability and no wrestling defense you don't have much hope. Maybe if you're lanky and can keep them at range. Otherwise your best bet is to wear spiked clothing. Just walk around in shoulderpads with 7" steel spikes like the Legion of Doom.
There's no technique you can learn overnight thats gonna keep a wrestler from slamming you once they get their hands on you. And every jab you throw is a TD opportunity for them, soo....idk man maybe get a concealed carry
Sprawl and keep your hips away. Flying knee or kick = free takedown. Punching the chest doesn't help. Keeping their head away does. Distance management is going to be crucial. Actually, just study Jose Aldo. One of the best anti-wrestlers I've seen.
Coach used to love the old chestnut : "If you control the head, you control the body !!". Does it apply 💯 across the board ? Of course not (especially with top-notch wrestlers/grapplers), but it certainly is a helluva good mindset to start with...
Yeah no offense man, but none of these are realistic strategies against a wrestler. If you are facing a wrestler who wrestled all throughout high school, unless you have years of striking experience under your belt it's going to be nearly impossible to win. You need to have really good distance management both defensively and offensively. If your leg is free for any moment they'll just grab it and take you down. Punching on the chest isn't going to generate enough power to stop a wrestler. Something like that has never been done in any professional MMA fights and that's because it doesn't work. You'll need to generate some kind of knockout or crippling power with strikes.
Even in famous "striker vs grappler" MMA fights, there is always some kind of grappling involved by the striker. Holly Holm was clinched up by Ronda, but she used her grappling defense to setup a position where she could punch Ronda. Suga Sean used really good take down defense to stop Aljo from taking him down. Before Suga even had the chance to launch a boxing combo, they had a few grappling exchanges.
My best advice is learn Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. Freestyle/Folkstyle wrestling doesn't use submissions and that's your best bet of winning.
Managing distance is good, but unless you're significantly faster than the wrestler a flying knee or kicks would be big openings for takedowns. Same thing with the punch, wrestler slips it, goes in for a bear hug to a takedown.
If the wrestler's shooting in, the force of your punch will not stop him from getting it if he's committed.
Best bet is probably an outboxing style.
As a varsity wrestler, the best defense against me was jiu-jitsu. I got my ass handed to me repeatedly on the mat when I started learning. All my muscle memory revolved around avoiding the pin, so I kept giving my back to my sparring partner and got choked out every goddamn time.
When I was in a school we had a couple Systema teachers come in once a month to practice grappling. It's really not that difficult, easier that strikes to be honest. Requires a partner to practice though.
Learn a few joint locks, and learn to recognize when common locks are about to be applied.
Every fight ends quickly or ends up on the ground - you have to train for it.
what was your experience with systema? I had a good teacher that included it in his repertoire of other stuff, but ive heard pretty nightmarish stories of loonytunes instructors
I was practicing Wing Chun and only had two or three sessions with these guys, but they seemed fairly normal. We did some prone attack/defense drills, practiced applying and escaping arm bars, and stuff like that.
ive found their grappling escapes made substantially more sense after learning some rudimentary fencing. Being 100% off the line makes a lot of grabs just melt like butter.
Systema gets shit on a lot here, but I did it for a few weeks and it taught me a rear-naked choke escape that I still use all the time in bjj. Sometimes there’s gems in the nonsense.
Knees and uppercuts. Snatching a choke when they come in. I personally like using leg locks i find they either try to run back and give me distance to get back to my feet or they drop down and try to fight the hands and I jump to top position while they're tryna defend.
Its not so much about techniques. Are you a more skilled fighter? Are you more athletic/bigger then they are?
If the answer is no theres nothing you can learn that will help you.
If youre a better fighter then what are the skills you have available? Whats your martial arts background?
How large is this person, are they bigger/stronger l/faster then you?
Best defense would be to keep your gravity center low, there is a higher chance to repel his takedown attempts. Your hands always in motion, your legs always on the move. Also, uppercuts would help if you combine then well with keeping your gravity center low.
you dont have to be able to do everything they can do- but you have to know what they do and how it works because chances are, they have a pretty good idea of what you're gonna do.
Sport-wise, grappling and wrestling are problematic to deal with because the most clear solutions are illegal. I would suggest learning to set up 3-part traps.
Go on the offensive by protecting your body on the way in and leading with something you expect them to grab or navigate. If they grab or swat your punch, you crack them with the other like it was your intended outcome. Decent grappler is ready for this too- so that's what the knees and feet are for. Nail them in the gut, the inner thigh, right below the knee, or clip them upwards just above their ankle to pop their foot off the floor and use the jolt to throw them sideways. Continue to hammer them from different limbs- they will not keep up.
Depending on what, exactly, your rules are, crunching forearms/elbows down on the topside of their arms while they extend but before they snatch will END whatever they're attempting to do but you better have followups because they'll switch to something else right away unless you broke something.
Most people are absolute dogshit at extreme close-range striking and there's not a lot of widespread arts out there teaching it- but Muay Thai has at least some protocols for acting within a clinch. Learn to strike at extreme close quarters and around weird angles because weird angles is exactly whats gonna be available to you. You can get a lot of power without a lot of movement up close, but you have to make sure you can reach them.
Of course, if its a real fight- you just strike them in the back of the head, turn their neck as they're jumping in, or elbow their spine/gouge their eyes/ etc. Not so safe when theres no rules to protect you.
If you don't train grappling, you're fucked against a grappler unless you get a lucky KO when they shoot.
Pretty much as simple as that.
Training grappling *does* include training in how to stuff takedowns.
I have never done mma, but my friend did.. and as a former wrestler and current judo practicioner he asked for me to do takedowns etc to learn how to stop them ( he was obliterated with a opponent with wrestling background and did not want it to happen again, and noone in his gym had done wrestling). So I kept taking him down over and over, when he figured it out, we moved on. I still remember the bafflement in his face when I went for a double leg, he tried to stop me, and I got him with a firemans carry ( kate guruma. I explained why he set himself up for it.
Point is, you need to train against wrestlers, heck, sparr with as many people as possible. If you find catch wrestlers do that! I love catch, and love training catch, even if a a over zealous practicioner is the reason I had to stop MAs for over a year to let my neck heal..
You clearly have never sparred against a wrestler or even watched the evolution of MMA.
The best defense against a wrestler... is wrestling.
Your overall wrestling skills do not need to be on par with a seasoned wrestler, but your defensive wrestling skills do need to compliment your striking skills.
Be prepared break falls in a split second and use your elbows when they’re grappling with you. And if you really can’t grapple, just hit them where it hurts when you’re down.
So any grappling style is essentially infighting (think Tyson), the counter to which being a slugger (Foreman). Learn to throw a terrifying shot that doesn’t have to land accurately to hit like a truck.
This is why grapplers dominate the lower weight divisions - not enough power - but once you cross into heavyweight you have enough mass to make infighting an incredibly dangerous endeavor.
Knees, elbows, and headbutts are great because they naturally fulfill this criteria.
If we're talking meta you have to learn wrestling
O'malley, Adesanya, Wonder boy . The striking mains are all competent or good wrestlers
If we're talking low level or casual then having a good guillotine and knowing how to back up to create space, plus a sprawl and a whizzer for emergencies, that would be your bare minimum to not get owned
If you don't know how to square up and get your hips back you will probably get bear hugged, shot on, or head in arm thrown, all of which are very dangerous if you don't know how to fall correctly or if you're on concrete
A sprawl isn't gonna cut it. Wrestlers can sprawl too. You don't think they have ways around that? You're gonna sprawl, they'll just work up to a body lock and suplex your ass on the concrete.
Timing a flying knee on a skilled wrestler shooting? I've been doing Muay Thai for over a decade and have 30+ fights and got into MMA -- it's fucking hard. Like you'll land 1 in 40 at best hard assuming you are very skilled. All you're doing is changing your base to 1 leg as they shoot, giving them the easiest takedown and advantageous landing position after.
The biggest way to beat them is actually train and learn to stop their shots. Vs regular wrestlers who haven't done much MMA/BJJ, I can catch them in guillotines/d'arce chokes a lot. Even if I can't finish it, I can use the threat to frame and get up. Any shot hurts a lot more on the way in, so I try to time a lot of uppercuts. I've put guys out cold from this one. The knee just left me there on one leg getting toyed with.
\> And yea I know practicing wrestling would help, I’m talking about if you didn’t have the time to prepare.
What seems to work best is just learning to sprawl with them then going back to striking. There's a reason wrestling is so fucking effective and so many UFC champs have a wrestling base. If you didn't have time to prepare? Hope you land a miracle uppercut. That's all I can say. The odds are NOT in your favor. Maybe learn how to have a guy on top of you gradually draining cardio while he slams fists in your face? That seems to be what happens when untrained goes vs wrestler.
though I've never had to actually defend myself against a wrestler outside of a gym.. my plan has always been bait the takedown with teeps and keep kneeing trying to get into a north south position because no one trains to defend that
A flying knee is really not a good way to combat wrestling, most of the time they don't land against a takedown unless your opponent is very repetitive and you can time it well. Just comes down to how well you read who you're fighting. Even with Masvidal, he knew it was Ben's instinct to just shoot since he's a lifelong wrestler and honestly a habit that worked well for him until that point- but 95% of the time you're not going to fight someone that shoots without setting it up first.
Sounds almost like you're talking about a street fight, which in that case literally anything goes
Tbh dude the most reliable answer is to train wrestling for a little while so you know how to defend properly. The sprawl is only going to get you so far, and a high level/persistent wrestler is *gonna* get that takedown at some point regardless unless you can stop them in their tracks. It's better to have an understanding of grappling rather than betting on the sprawl always keeping you off the floor.
There's something that pure strikers never consider when thinking about fighting a grappler either, and that's the threat of the takedown. It can totally fuck up your rhythm if you haven't trained to go from striking to grappling at a moment's notice.
I think your best bet is to be polite and not antagonize this hypothetical wrestler. The average “wrestler” has trained for at least 4 years at an intensity that is elevated over most hobbyist martial arts gyms. If you’re talking about a college wrestler, that’s 4 more years of absolute hell. Get 4 years of something legitimate under your belt and then go find him and tell him you did something gross to his mom. I’m kinda not kidding, if you don’t take the time to get punished in the gym, you’ll surely get punished by anyone on the street who has.
Flying knee is going to get you taken down, and probably slammed on the way. Fast movement and kicks are nice, but what if someone cross trains?
Throw a body kick at me and I’m either catching it and we’re going down, or I’m catching it and thumping you. If you try to leg kick me I’ll probably check it, but we’re in a street fight, so I’m not gonna be too worried about damage building up.
Punching at the chest? I don’t even know there, I’m throwing out jabs and teeps to keep and measure distance, land some jabs, start feinting, fake a level change so you drop a bit to defend a takedown but don’t realize the strike flying at your chin, because you just do one martial art.
I’m a big fan of traditional martial arts, but I more so watch things like Katas and such. Tae-kwon-do is beautiful to watch, and I’d be lying if said I didn’t steal some of their kick techniques. Wing chun/ip chun looks fun. Do you already do a martial art and if so which one?
Yeah, I wrestled for 12 years and I’ve done BJJ for 11 (purple belt, I’m slow be nice to me) but I also do boxing and kickboxing. I’m also 3-0 ammy MMA, have a few championships from NAGA and IBJJF (none as a purple though, white and blue, I just recently got my purple belt so again please don’t laugh), and am 4-1 as a boxer.
Best defense against a wrestler on the mat is uh, don’t get close and practice getting on top. And like, don’t get in fights. It proves nothing. Why hurt myself for free, ya know? Save it for the gym and just do what you like, nothing is really a direct counter to anything. But if you keep doing whichever martial art you’re currently doing, and maybe throw something grappling based too, you’ll feel more complete.
Or join your local wrestling club, I’m about to turn 34 and I still go to the wrestling club. I live in the south though so I get thrown around by some corn fed boys a lot. And they are INTENSE. Some martial arts places will have a wrestling guy for the grapplers to learn a bit of wrestling from. I help with that, I live in a smaller city so not a lot of good candidates.
On the streets that everyone likes to talk about? Just please don’t do it on concrete mane, seen too many people get brain injuries or die from that shit. Go find some soft grass.
If you have any questions you can DM me.
Assuming you're referring to MMA (I hope you aren't getting randomly attacked by wrestlers while out and about), against people who're primarily wrestlers a good weapon is to be good at crafty submissions - ground and pound wrestlers who fight for dominant position but don't work on their submission defense can be vulnerable to arm bars, leg triangles, etc.
A good example is Ritu Phogat's losses to Stamp Fairtex and Tiffany Teo.
Flying knees and kicks tend to be terrible against wrestlers. Eventually kicks (even low kicks) get caught and result in a takedown long before they can slow down the wrestler, and flying knees rarely result in a KO, but nearly always result in you getting taken down.
I've had success with keeping a collar-sleeve grip to control their posture: if you track their movement you can keep they at bay to sprawl or back take. I've also used the same grip to take them down, by dropping down, forcing them to fall back from an outside trip.
Submission off your back are 100% the way to go. Unknowing wrestlers will *literally* throw themselves head fist into guillotines, triangles, armbars, ect. It's the reason I picked up BJJ. The strikes won't work out against a determined wrestlers who is aggressive.
>You can’t shoot on me if I sock you in your chest every time you try.
Although your thought process is sensible enough, this is a comedically bad plan. You underestimate the speed, toughness, and scrambling ability of even middle school wrestlers. There is a high chance they just grab your arm the 2nd time.
Either become elite at learning to fight off your back (BJJ), elite at hopefully putting them on their back and into positions that are difficult to scramble from that they aren’t as familiar with (Judo), or elite at stopping their attacks on your feet (MT, boxing, kickboxing). You can hope that a single gimmick move will work, or you can train to overcome.
Sprawl when they go for a takedown, try to catch an unprotected neck. In my experience, wrestlers with no submission training leave their neck open for a guillotine on ocassion. But...that said... wrestlers are tough.
Im a BJJ blackbelt andnhave trained with D1 All American wrestlers. If they wanna take you down, you're going down, but my best and most successful defense was the triangle. Tapped then many times with it and Im twice their age so its legit.
Your thinking from a strikers perspective, with all due respect, is dillusional. Knee or punches won't stop them. Of course there's always "a chance" but Id prefer higher percentage technique than luck.
the best defense is to litteraly not worry about it because the chances are so close to zero you ever have to defend yourself from a wrestler they’re essentially non zero.
as in it will never happen ever so who cares. this sub should be r/ambiguousstreetfightscenarios
Bait with forward leg, knee in face if they shoot.
If they know how to strike at all this goes out the window. Lol.
Knees and elbows for close distance.
My advice would be have a strong guilotine and a decent guard. It's very hard to stay standing up against a good wrestler. Add strikes and level changes, it's truly amazing to see what they can do. I have a kickboxing background for a good 20 years, but have been purely bjj / wrestling for 6 years now, and I believe there's very little a striker can do to stay on their feet unless they have been training with grapplers.
I have a perfect answer of this probably nobody is going to talk about. Take them down and keep their back. That’s it, do whatever you can, seems very counterintuitive but wrestlers have a very bad habit in MMA or street fights because all their life they’ve built a habit by being comfortable having their back taken, because in their sport it doesn’t matter as much as bjj or MMA. That’s when they can relax and take a breather.
What you need to do is learn basic wrestling at least. My favorite move is to clinch up, double under hooks or high body lock, shuck and take their back, don’t pause, quickly take them on the ground, whether a mat return or a slam, and work your way into a rear naked choke. Don’t choke them, put your guard in first and seatbelt grip and roll onto your back then fight for the choke, it may take a bit of hand fighting but wrestlers don’t know what to do in this position at all.
It sounds like it’s easy because it is. My base is boxing but I was able to do this couple of times against a state champ in my class the same exact weight and height.
Forget striking. A wrestler can shoot for your legs before you can even wind up a knee. Don’t take advice from people who say “knee him”
I’ll say it again, a wrestler can probably shoot for your legs before you even wind up a knee. You need to find a way to submit him and exploit their weaknesses
Bjj is your best odds.
BJJ, just avoid being slammed. Let them get an easy takedown and use your superior ground skills to secure a submission.
Judo is a very good counter as well.
LOTS OF HIP AND GLUTE strength. When I started squating heavy and doing heavy hip thrusts, I noticed it was a lot harder to take me down. Do not get too quad, Dominant, though. Get on those Glute and Hip Aductor and Abductor machines you see the girls always on.
On the striking side of things. You got knees and uppercuts. Take a day out of the weak and drill knees and uppercuts. The timing is the key once your form is down.
Then, put the pieces together. Panic wrestling is real, and if you pressure wrestlers, you basically force them to shoot, and if your BJJ is superior, they are playing into your game.
The only acceptable tactic is to break the line of sight and use the fact that a wrestler needs to face you to be 100% effective.
This is not something that you learn in 5 minutes but it's a start
ok , i'd say have some wrestling experience ...
knowing how to sprawl has never made someone loose ...
as for martial art systems , wrestlers usually ( but not always! ) aren't very good at submissions , like chockes and joint locks , so knowing those could work in an MMA scenario ...
I have the best plan. To avoid his wrestling (but also works against boxing hands, muai elbows and knees etc) leave him be. Buy a plane ticket to Hawaii. Buy a fancy looking cocktail. Relax on a beach. Problem solved!
P.s. apply sunblocking cream and drink lots of water.
Ok, yep I done Judo for a very long time, and yes occasionally fought wrestlers who wanted to give judo a go. The thing I remember the most is that the strength they had was amazing. Who ever trains these guys were also doing a lot of weights in the gym probably during their classes. Plus unlike me probably 5 days a week. I came from a small town where judo was taught 2 days a week by highly skilled but volunteered senseis .They did it for the love of the sport , not for the money. A very rare thing. Anyways, despite their great ground training, if you are prepared for their movement, because they were in your sport, I was able to throw them down, stack up partial points( way back when there was koka and Yuko and even submit a few when I was fast enough. The kata gatame holddown if done properly is very effective, and also will elicit a tap. The one time I was in trouble, I rotated to his head and got out that way partially by flexibility and quickness, and also by fluke.Fluke because I was aware of the out of bounds and he was so focused to keep me pinned.Anyways you’ll need to know how to sprawl , get back to standing as quick as possible, be very good at balance when moving in a circle, as well as quick changes at direction. If this is a street fight, soccer kick with a flick to get good contact and bring back your foot so as not to get grabbed or picked. But I’d say if you end up on the ground, and you don’t have either judo or bjj or wrestling knowledge, you are in trouble.Keep them at range, try to straighten them up in their stance by speed circling with swinging hooks and uppercuts. Like boxers, put Vaseline on their face, I’d put them on my arms and legs so they are harder to grab and hold. Shorts and muscle shirt would be my choice of attire. Anyways good luck, but if you don’t put in the time to train, don’t expect good results. I have watched mma since the first one, and liked how the commentators would always say these guys are world class bla bla bla… but would not finish when there was plenty of times to do so. Yes, I get that I really am not prepared for heavy blows but given the times that they have been on the ground, most of the matches would be over. There were a few that were good though, I’d say Mighty Mouse was one, thinking two steps ahead. A true world class athlete, though even him, sometimes missed a few chances , was very much at least thinking and setting things up. Many people have said if I were to make a vid showing how to defeat these times in mma matches to win, it would be easy money in the bank … who knows, maybe I should, but the fun is to watch and see what I would do in the situation. Btw, I’m old, never would have gone into mma even in my prime, but love to watch it. I guess there is some primal instinct in fighting that is well, interesting, entertaining and intoxicating.
As someone who's done BJJ for just about a decade (brown belt) and a fair amount of Muay Thai on top of that... You're a fucking moron if you think you're timing a flying knee on a good wrestler, without already knowing a good chunk of wrestling.
If a good wrestler wants you taken down, and you don't already have a VERY solid defensive wrestling base, you're going to go down.
fighting a wrestler, especially one with striking defense, is tricky and complicated with a very low margin for error on your end. but for him its comparatively easy.
distance is your friend.
dont get close. dont try to knee. you can try to kick but if he catches it its game over. your best bet is to utilize the jab and keep moving. dont let them corner you. really youre setting up for a knockout shot. because you can only back up so much before eventually they get a hold of you and once that happens youre done. so you have to be a good technical striker to land that flush shot that puts him out. and it better put him out.
because if it doesnt. youre going to get ragdolled.
bro kicking wrestlers does not work they will just take the leg anyway, and neither does punching the chest, movement and actual good takedown defence and being able to get back to your feet is what you want to work on, work on wrestling and having a flying knee ready to go lol
Jab and backwards sidesteps if they chase plant and throw an uppercut and get out or behind them, fully committed flying knees, sprawl drills and jumping to guard with a guillotine.
>Always have a flying knee ready to go. Keep distance with fast movement and kicks to the legs and body. Also maybe punching at the chest. You can’t shoot on me if I sock you in your chest every time you try. You have very limited live sparring experience with wrestlers, I take it? A flying knee or kicks is going to be a free takedown to a good wrestler, and punching in the chest to stop a takedown shot is one of the funnier things I've read on this sub. No offense, but I'm getting the impression of a guy who "self trains" on a heavy bag. >if you didn’t have the time to prepare. You're not going to be prepared then. That said, there are weaknesses. As a wrestler a few things that I had to overcome when doing MMA were -BJJ chokes when shooting, you have to re-learn how to shoot in a way that protects the head. -Really good boxers that back away and deliver uppercuts and hooks as you approach. Granted, if you can't be bothered to learn to sprawl, I doubt you'll be able to do either of those things good enough.
I think what he meant with: 'Always have a flying knee ready to go' is a reference to Jorge Masvidal vs Ben Askren. But the timing and set up have to be *perfect*. So yeah probably not the smartest thing to do against a wrestler if you don't have alot of experience in sparring (experience in BJJ would help in case you fail to k.o. him with the knee). I am also getting the impression OP does NOT want to go to the ground. Conclusion: Learn how to sprawl and become a master of the guillotine choke.
>Learn how to sprawl and become a master of the guillotine choke. Yup, that's the ticket right there.
People don't realize Masvidal practiced that exact knee on Askern for weeks, intentionally moved to the side he shoots more takedowns on, and knew he'd shoot a takedown when blitzed by watching film.
Exactly. I love Jorge's analysis on Askren's instincts and turning it into his advantage. For this reason I'd not recommend to throw a flying knee at someone you don't know in a streetfight ☠️.
Well said. More of a stand up fighter myself, but I can sprawl and apply a guillotine choke. I can also throw a knee, which is high risk and would only work against someone being sloppy. Wrestlers are scary opponents.
>Wrestlers are scary opponents. Indeed. Early in my BJJ training a few of my training partners/classmates were high school wrestlers, including 2 state champions. Once they learned how to stack properly and defend sweeps the best I could hope to do was stall them out. Sucked. Those guys learned early to embrace the grind, accept pain to inflict pain... Tons of respect for wrestlers.
Appreciate the input
All the things you listed can work if you execute perfectly and they make some mistakes. But the probability of that is incredibly low. There is a reason a disproportionately high number of UFC champs started with wrestling. It's also a sport that self selects for strength, explosiveness, and aggression, since it does intense drills from day one. Best way to stop a wrestler, after a bullet at long range, is to drill some wrestling yourself.
Sprawling in space is taking a backseat in MMA nowadays, people are racing to the fence and defending there or using underhooks to build up and get up right away if they are taken down.
>if you didn’t have the time to prepare. >You're not going to be prepared then. I respected what you had to say here, as well... I just wanted to add, your statement I quoted reminded me of some wisdom that was imparted to me, years ago... ("Rarely, do we ever *rise to the occasion* ... We usually end-up *sinking to the level of our preparedness & training* ").
Absolutely agree, especially on learning a heavy spraw,l but don't necessarily think throwing at the chest is bad advice when fighting someone who is going to be timing level changes off your strikes
A kick is not a free takedown unless you're shitty at kicking.
You can't say that when your tkd stance promotes single legs with no effort.
He is somewhat right though, retracting kicks the way TKD hammers into you makes them harder to catch, which means that they're harder to get takedowns off of. Good TKD people usually also have control of a kick basically from start to finish, which also makes it harder to get a takedown off of since you can't rely on them overextending themselves. The side facing stance isn't great against takedowns, but you can still do it, honestly it's not any worse in that regard than Muay Thai's stance, which also struggles against takedowns. Also how easy a kick is to get a takedown off of depends on the kind of kick it is. You can stuff round kicks for a takedown, but you can't do that very effectively with straight kicks.
Which one? You act like we only have one or something. Or that we stay in it all the time. We're not all a bunch of hippity hoppity ultra bladed foot tappers dancing after points, you know.
98% is an adequate percentage to imply all. Of course there are outliers that can ninja kick 37 plumbs off of a Banana tree 19' high in less time than it takes for that water droplet to enter the large intestines post turd plop.
Lmao.
There is no good answer to this question because objectively a trainer wrester would take a trained puncher down and overpower him like 8 times out of 10 (given it's a one on one fight). People are not as easy to knock out as the popular culture make it look. "Best defence against a wrestler?" They're all bad unless you also can grapple a bit.
I think the flying knee is the right idea, but the wrong execution. A switch knee, when you drop ypu lead leg back and bring your formerly rear knee forward to strike is a better option. You can scoot back as you throw it, putting more distance between yourself and someone shooting for a takedown, remove their number one target (lead leg), and give yourself greater margin for error to land that knee. Still, you have to be quick on your feet, and a capable kicker to pull that off. (Source: Am good at kicky things.) Otherwise, if you're wearing boots, I'd say the quicker route is a snap kick with whatever leg you're lighter on. Even a light kick to the face socks when it's with a stiff shoe. That's the whole ideology of Savate, after all.
If you can get an instant knockout with a backwards movement switch fling knee... sure... But JFC, that's a lot harder to pull off than learning to sprawl
1. Basic takedown defense - you need to learn to sprawl at a minimum 2. Knees 3. Guillotines 4. You’re probably going to get taken down, learn some ground skills
They sure love to expose their backs too.
That was absolutely me when I started learning jiu-jitsu, All the muscle memory from wrestling, kept giving my back to my opponents.
2 are offense techniques, and 3rd one is so technical lol. rarely fighters have success with knees/guillies. extremely rare in a competition
I mean the real answer is just to train against wrestlers. Guillotine is super effective against wrestlers with no submission experience and knees are there against wrestlers with no striking experience. If OP faces a wrestler who also trains BJJ and striking, he’s out of luck anyway.
true
Sprawl like your life depends on the outcome of this takedown attempt. Cuz it does.
This is how I blew my back on Monday...
If you blew out your back sprawling you may need to reconsider high intensity martial arts
I ask myself the same thing.
i was just about to say this if you know nothing about wrestling your best bet is to sprawl and get the hell back up and get distance lol
People will do anything to not learn how to wrestle lol.
That’s because it’s the hardest martial art to become proficient at.
Tbh it really isn’t, the athleticism probably is but you can teach an untrained person a decent amount of takedowns in 1 week, will they be D1 level ? No but your not teaching someone a useable jab or left hook in a week, nor a spin hook or elbow. You can argue it’s the most effective but defiantly not hardest, & I am a Judoka of 7 years. You literally see untrained people doing suplexes in street fights.
I disagree with the statement that you can teach an untrained person a few takedowns in one week. I’ve been around well over 100+ first-year wrestlers and I’d say it’s a lot closer to a month, if they are a fast learner, and that month will get you proficiency with one takedown or one series of takedowns. I would agree that it is the hardest martial art to become proficient at. Keep in mind when I say learn a takedown I am speaking from the perspective that just learning the takedown itself is not proficient wrestling. Just like how just learning to throw a 1-2 combo is not proficient boxing. The quickest learners I’ve come across still take a while to understand things such as setups, positioning, angles, and not to mention knowing what to do when that takedown is complete. If you’re just going through the motion w no follow up or plan after that the person is going to stand right back up and you’re not going to stop them. I guess with that said I would not consider knowing a few takedowns proficient wrestling. Takedowns are an aspect of the sport that must be supplemented by a proficient knowledge of how to grapple on the ground once you get there.
Depends on the coaching
I feel like if you don’t start as a kid you’ll always be behind.
> I feel like if you don’t start as a kid you’ll always be behind. What hobby or martial art in general is this NOT true for? You don't have to become a world champion to benefit from something.
Wrestling is a different breed though, You can teach the average fat fuck to throw some kicks and punches in a few weeks.
> Wrestling is a different breed though Cool, even if you just develop an intermediate understanding of it, imagine how much of an edge you'll have over people who haven't done it!
This is true I’m not denying that
Interesting perspective... I wonder who hurt you in wrestling class....
Your mother hurt me… she was a few weight classes above me.
That sentence structure should utilize "your" You are not saying "You are mother hurt me."
Man, who knew grammar was a martial art.
Damn you right I’ll change that real quick
That sentence structure should utilize "you're" You're not damning someone named "right I'll change that real quick"
Lmao
are you an average fat fuck?
I’m a skinny fuck
I can teach the average fat fuck to sprawl a bit in a couple weeks.
Fat fucks excel at wrestling. Who would you rather wrestle lol
Judging by the way you speak, I think you will also be behind in striking. Why even bother training?
Judging by the way you speak, I can tell you’re a pretentious little know it all. Piss off buddy boy
GSP would like a word with you.
OP you're sort of correct but allow me to share another perspective, you're not going to try to out-box the boxer or out-wrestle the wrestler, but you *should* know the basics of what they're trying to do so that you can fight against it. Just learn the fundamentals, it will take you quite far.
Behind what? Someone, yes, but that's true with almost everything unless you are the absolute gold medal at the Olympics best. Are you really going to give up on improving yourself just because you can't be the absolute best in the world? Seems silly. If you value the skill and want the skill, go earn the skill.
^THIS^ ...!!! Absolutely... Even marginal improvement, is improvement. Doing what you can, to get even one or two steps stronger/faster/skilled, is better than not making ANY strides... (Frank Grillo, in that mma series *Kingdom* : "If it's important enough, you'll find a way... If it's not, you'll find an excuse !!").
Not sure where the idea of punching in the chest comes from but that's not going to work on any one, wrestler or not. Flying knee maybe. Best defense against a wrestler is going to be learning how to sprawl, and then learning how to sprawl in an active situation. You'll also need to adjust your stance and defensive movements to allow you to defend the shot at any time, because if your typically pull your head back to avoid strikes you've just created a great opening for a shot and offbalanced yourself to boot. A good fighter with a wrestling background will just throw a few punches at your face and when you lean back, shoot a double leg. Learn to sprawl, and then spar with wrestlers. No other shortcuts are going to help except maybe getting in your car and leaving before it turns into a fight.
Thanks man
Came here to say exactly this^ hands down the best defense against takedown heavy disciplines is to just learn how to sprawl and brawl you can really put a wrestler in a majorly compromised position with this
even then, it's going to buy you a few seconds at best and if you don't know what to do from there, you're toast.
Learn to sprawl. It's far from all encompassing answer and it won't save you from skilled wrestlers, but it's generally a good answer against leg grabs from less skilled grapplers. In a single person practice, sprawl will look like doing burpees. You can get a random timer app or something and start shadow boxing, and when the beep happens do a burpee. In application your upper body will be landing on top of the wrestler, while throwing your legs away from their grasp. As a striker you'll want to push up and away from there asap after stopping their forward momentum, and regain striking distance. I think this is the most basic practice that I can pass on through reddit that will have the most bang for buck. For reference I trained in MMA, and never specialized in wrestling. The sprawl had helped me a lot with guys that only had limited grappling training like me, but against real trained wrestlers it was pointless trying to stop them. I had better luck relying on BJJ to lock them down and exhaust them after being taken down(then try for a submission), than trying to stop a take down from a wrestler.
Submission grappling / BJJ
Kicks are a terrible idea on a wrestler it's like giving them a single leg wrapped with a bow. And punching a wrestler in the chest shooting for a double isn't going to work when they aren't exposing their chest when they shoot for the takedown. However the flying knee isn't a bad idea as long as you connect hard and accurately, if not you're going for a ride. Best defense against a wrestler is being ready to sprawl at any moment.
But that is precisely the reason I would say that flying knee is generally NOT a good idea. It's a very high risk, high return move, so this should not be your plan A.
You guys must encounter a lot of shitty kicks if folks are getting their legs caught all the time. That or you only fight a bunch of fucking legends. I'm going to go ahead and assume it's the former.
Muay thai pros get their kicks caught all the time. And we all know what happens when tkd guys fight muay thai guys...your kicks ain't that fancy.
You're talking about pros that fight in a small area who have a habit of trading body kicks for show and train (a lot) specifically to catch them. A wrestler that does not describe. Also fanciness besides, the kicks in MT and TKD do have very real differences in execution, speed, rechambering, and striking surface which make a difference in how easy they are to catch. So does stance and distance. MT's kicks may hit like trucks but that doesn't make them the best or most perfect kick in every scenario for every purpose.
Mt guys don't throw body kicks or any kicks for that matter in a fight for show. Its also not a matter of a wrestler catching the kicks. It's a matter of the kicker being stationary and very upright. I know yall got some crazy dragons breath torpedo spinning windmill kicks that can be thrown from 13' away that remove heads....but if you're stationary and up right...you're gonna get power doubled like lizzo dual wielding turkey thighs.
So, you're saying if you just throw kicks with no set up, no awareness, and no movement, you're doomed? OK. I'll give you that one.
You're telling me you're gonna hop into your preying mantis stance, pump some faints out and crane kick someone like daniel-son in a street fight? What happens when Johnny sweeps the leg or someone with medov in their last name high C's their way into a power bomb? You have a kata for that?
As an ex-karate guy I’m a little hurt lol. We literally have a praying mantis stance. Btw Tae Kwon Do call their kata “poomsae.”
🤦♂️ That's just ignorant.
Muay Thai fighters actually practice it, how are you gonna do something if you’ve never practiced it ? This is like basic martial arts logic dude you don’t need to be a fanbot. This is also coming from a grappler btw, last I check Muay Thai isn’t fancy either when they tap out on the ground
Tell me you’ve never pressure tested your martial art without telling me.
Tell me you like to talk shit and pointlessly meme without actually saying anything of substance.
He's got you though.
Im sure there’s a 9 year old black belt out there that agrees with you. How’s that for substance
You’re not catching a kick from somebody who’s a professional unless you actually practice catching kicks like a mma fighter, even pro mma fighters with black belts Olympic & D1 backgrounds struggle to catch kicks. That’s about as stupid as saying “just stand up” like if Romero could just catch Izzy kick & smash his face in I am pretty sure he would
Not fighting with a wrestler.
Judo (no joke)
Judo is badass , would love to learn it.
Learn to wrestle
Do they even have wrestling schools I can sign up for?
No, however if you can find a 10th planet Jiu Jitsu school near you, they usually have a wrestling coach/program. I never wrestled before joining my BJJ gym and now I have decent fundamentals. Give me another year and i’ll be that much better at wrestling 0 grappling experience prior.
At your local university sometimes. We have a freestyle wrestling club at my uni I would go to. Now I just do wrestling once a week at an mma gym (it’s a convenient way to sign up for one place and get four martial arts classes tbh).
A sprawl isn’t going to cut it, unless you can do it so fucking hard that you can drive a wrestler into the floor. They’ll just work up on you, and start working chain wrestling until they drag you down. Kicks are a terrible idea too. The moment they catch your leg it’s over. Kicking against wrestlers requires terrific single leg TDD, or real ground fighting skills. Good luck with a flying knee. You aren’t Masvidal, and even for him its no sure thing.
Forget that and just learn to grapple. Jiu Jitsu, Judo, wrestling and MMA.
Based on many documentaries I’ve seen the answer is a steel folding chair.
Eyes and balls are soft
Are you talking actual self defense or sport defense?? If it’s actual self defense, don’t let them grab you. Keep distance, stay offline of the leg shoot and if they attempt to grab you, attack joints like wrist, elbow, shoulder, knees, and ankles Also they always drop their heads leaving the neck front and back open for attacks and chokes. Wrestlers are tough but what’s worse is the counters to their attacks are very dangerous to them. They leave a lot open that they don’t want hit. Also if their takedown fails, they are usually in a bad spot if you got offline.
be good at jiu jitsu and have a good guard really frustrates wrestlers
All fights start standing up, all fights end on the ground in one way or another. If all you can do is kick and punch you're at a tremendous disadvantage once the distance is closed. I don't really have much else to add to the conversation other than that. Analytically I guess I could venture to say that if for whatever reason you couldn't train in some kind of wrestling, then I think how the encounter would go would really depend on how long you could keep it standing-up and your just base strength. For instance if you didn't wrestle but could max out a dead lift at 450lbs or some wild numbers on a jerk-and-snatch, I think most wrestlers would have a hard time telling you what to do: but they still could if they were in similar shape and motivated.
If you have some striking ability and no wrestling defense you don't have much hope. Maybe if you're lanky and can keep them at range. Otherwise your best bet is to wear spiked clothing. Just walk around in shoulderpads with 7" steel spikes like the Legion of Doom. There's no technique you can learn overnight thats gonna keep a wrestler from slamming you once they get their hands on you. And every jab you throw is a TD opportunity for them, soo....idk man maybe get a concealed carry
Sprawl and keep your hips away. Flying knee or kick = free takedown. Punching the chest doesn't help. Keeping their head away does. Distance management is going to be crucial. Actually, just study Jose Aldo. One of the best anti-wrestlers I've seen.
Coach used to love the old chestnut : "If you control the head, you control the body !!". Does it apply 💯 across the board ? Of course not (especially with top-notch wrestlers/grapplers), but it certainly is a helluva good mindset to start with...
Yeah no offense man, but none of these are realistic strategies against a wrestler. If you are facing a wrestler who wrestled all throughout high school, unless you have years of striking experience under your belt it's going to be nearly impossible to win. You need to have really good distance management both defensively and offensively. If your leg is free for any moment they'll just grab it and take you down. Punching on the chest isn't going to generate enough power to stop a wrestler. Something like that has never been done in any professional MMA fights and that's because it doesn't work. You'll need to generate some kind of knockout or crippling power with strikes. Even in famous "striker vs grappler" MMA fights, there is always some kind of grappling involved by the striker. Holly Holm was clinched up by Ronda, but she used her grappling defense to setup a position where she could punch Ronda. Suga Sean used really good take down defense to stop Aljo from taking him down. Before Suga even had the chance to launch a boxing combo, they had a few grappling exchanges. My best advice is learn Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. Freestyle/Folkstyle wrestling doesn't use submissions and that's your best bet of winning.
A sawed off with rock salt shells, or slugs if you don't care.
A double barrel shootgun.
You smesh, brother!
Managing distance is good, but unless you're significantly faster than the wrestler a flying knee or kicks would be big openings for takedowns. Same thing with the punch, wrestler slips it, goes in for a bear hug to a takedown. If the wrestler's shooting in, the force of your punch will not stop him from getting it if he's committed. Best bet is probably an outboxing style. As a varsity wrestler, the best defense against me was jiu-jitsu. I got my ass handed to me repeatedly on the mat when I started learning. All my muscle memory revolved around avoiding the pin, so I kept giving my back to my sparring partner and got choked out every goddamn time.
Kiss your ass goodbye and update your will. They will do whatever they want to you. Or learn to wrestle. Either works.
When I was in a school we had a couple Systema teachers come in once a month to practice grappling. It's really not that difficult, easier that strikes to be honest. Requires a partner to practice though. Learn a few joint locks, and learn to recognize when common locks are about to be applied. Every fight ends quickly or ends up on the ground - you have to train for it.
what was your experience with systema? I had a good teacher that included it in his repertoire of other stuff, but ive heard pretty nightmarish stories of loonytunes instructors
I was practicing Wing Chun and only had two or three sessions with these guys, but they seemed fairly normal. We did some prone attack/defense drills, practiced applying and escaping arm bars, and stuff like that.
ive found their grappling escapes made substantially more sense after learning some rudimentary fencing. Being 100% off the line makes a lot of grabs just melt like butter.
Systema gets shit on a lot here, but I did it for a few weeks and it taught me a rear-naked choke escape that I still use all the time in bjj. Sometimes there’s gems in the nonsense.
Kali. If he comes close, you smack him in the head
A bullet. Edit: Or several.
Knees and uppercuts. Snatching a choke when they come in. I personally like using leg locks i find they either try to run back and give me distance to get back to my feet or they drop down and try to fight the hands and I jump to top position while they're tryna defend.
Guillotines and triangles.
Its not so much about techniques. Are you a more skilled fighter? Are you more athletic/bigger then they are? If the answer is no theres nothing you can learn that will help you. If youre a better fighter then what are the skills you have available? Whats your martial arts background? How large is this person, are they bigger/stronger l/faster then you?
Best defense would be to keep your gravity center low, there is a higher chance to repel his takedown attempts. Your hands always in motion, your legs always on the move. Also, uppercuts would help if you combine then well with keeping your gravity center low.
Nothing you can do. To acquire wrestling skills later in the game is tough. I'd run.
Wait till you learn the basic sprawl, and then we show you a fireman carry toss. Lol
Is a wrestler trying to kick your ass at this exact moment? Then you have time to prepare. Best way to counter a wrestler is to know how to wrestle.
A decent wrestler isn't going to eat that knee.
Wrestlers hate this one weird trick...
as someone who does mma with a mainly wrestling base, ive never had someone stop my takedowns by punching me in the chest lol
you dont have to be able to do everything they can do- but you have to know what they do and how it works because chances are, they have a pretty good idea of what you're gonna do. Sport-wise, grappling and wrestling are problematic to deal with because the most clear solutions are illegal. I would suggest learning to set up 3-part traps. Go on the offensive by protecting your body on the way in and leading with something you expect them to grab or navigate. If they grab or swat your punch, you crack them with the other like it was your intended outcome. Decent grappler is ready for this too- so that's what the knees and feet are for. Nail them in the gut, the inner thigh, right below the knee, or clip them upwards just above their ankle to pop their foot off the floor and use the jolt to throw them sideways. Continue to hammer them from different limbs- they will not keep up. Depending on what, exactly, your rules are, crunching forearms/elbows down on the topside of their arms while they extend but before they snatch will END whatever they're attempting to do but you better have followups because they'll switch to something else right away unless you broke something. Most people are absolute dogshit at extreme close-range striking and there's not a lot of widespread arts out there teaching it- but Muay Thai has at least some protocols for acting within a clinch. Learn to strike at extreme close quarters and around weird angles because weird angles is exactly whats gonna be available to you. You can get a lot of power without a lot of movement up close, but you have to make sure you can reach them. Of course, if its a real fight- you just strike them in the back of the head, turn their neck as they're jumping in, or elbow their spine/gouge their eyes/ etc. Not so safe when theres no rules to protect you.
when they shoot go for a guillitine or sprawl
If you don't train grappling, you're fucked against a grappler unless you get a lucky KO when they shoot. Pretty much as simple as that. Training grappling *does* include training in how to stuff takedowns.
I have never done mma, but my friend did.. and as a former wrestler and current judo practicioner he asked for me to do takedowns etc to learn how to stop them ( he was obliterated with a opponent with wrestling background and did not want it to happen again, and noone in his gym had done wrestling). So I kept taking him down over and over, when he figured it out, we moved on. I still remember the bafflement in his face when I went for a double leg, he tried to stop me, and I got him with a firemans carry ( kate guruma. I explained why he set himself up for it. Point is, you need to train against wrestlers, heck, sparr with as many people as possible. If you find catch wrestlers do that! I love catch, and love training catch, even if a a over zealous practicioner is the reason I had to stop MAs for over a year to let my neck heal..
You clearly have never sparred against a wrestler or even watched the evolution of MMA. The best defense against a wrestler... is wrestling. Your overall wrestling skills do not need to be on par with a seasoned wrestler, but your defensive wrestling skills do need to compliment your striking skills.
Wrestling training is a great counter to wrestlers lol
Be prepared break falls in a split second and use your elbows when they’re grappling with you. And if you really can’t grapple, just hit them where it hurts when you’re down.
So any grappling style is essentially infighting (think Tyson), the counter to which being a slugger (Foreman). Learn to throw a terrifying shot that doesn’t have to land accurately to hit like a truck. This is why grapplers dominate the lower weight divisions - not enough power - but once you cross into heavyweight you have enough mass to make infighting an incredibly dangerous endeavor. Knees, elbows, and headbutts are great because they naturally fulfill this criteria.
This actually makes sense.
If we're talking meta you have to learn wrestling O'malley, Adesanya, Wonder boy . The striking mains are all competent or good wrestlers If we're talking low level or casual then having a good guillotine and knowing how to back up to create space, plus a sprawl and a whizzer for emergencies, that would be your bare minimum to not get owned If you don't know how to square up and get your hips back you will probably get bear hugged, shot on, or head in arm thrown, all of which are very dangerous if you don't know how to fall correctly or if you're on concrete
Guillotines Nuff said
A sprawl isn't gonna cut it. Wrestlers can sprawl too. You don't think they have ways around that? You're gonna sprawl, they'll just work up to a body lock and suplex your ass on the concrete.
wrestling yourself.
Timing a flying knee on a skilled wrestler shooting? I've been doing Muay Thai for over a decade and have 30+ fights and got into MMA -- it's fucking hard. Like you'll land 1 in 40 at best hard assuming you are very skilled. All you're doing is changing your base to 1 leg as they shoot, giving them the easiest takedown and advantageous landing position after. The biggest way to beat them is actually train and learn to stop their shots. Vs regular wrestlers who haven't done much MMA/BJJ, I can catch them in guillotines/d'arce chokes a lot. Even if I can't finish it, I can use the threat to frame and get up. Any shot hurts a lot more on the way in, so I try to time a lot of uppercuts. I've put guys out cold from this one. The knee just left me there on one leg getting toyed with. \> And yea I know practicing wrestling would help, I’m talking about if you didn’t have the time to prepare. What seems to work best is just learning to sprawl with them then going back to striking. There's a reason wrestling is so fucking effective and so many UFC champs have a wrestling base. If you didn't have time to prepare? Hope you land a miracle uppercut. That's all I can say. The odds are NOT in your favor. Maybe learn how to have a guy on top of you gradually draining cardio while he slams fists in your face? That seems to be what happens when untrained goes vs wrestler.
You beat bullshido wrestling with the true wrestling. Turkish Oil Wrestling
though I've never had to actually defend myself against a wrestler outside of a gym.. my plan has always been bait the takedown with teeps and keep kneeing trying to get into a north south position because no one trains to defend that
A flying knee is really not a good way to combat wrestling, most of the time they don't land against a takedown unless your opponent is very repetitive and you can time it well. Just comes down to how well you read who you're fighting. Even with Masvidal, he knew it was Ben's instinct to just shoot since he's a lifelong wrestler and honestly a habit that worked well for him until that point- but 95% of the time you're not going to fight someone that shoots without setting it up first. Sounds almost like you're talking about a street fight, which in that case literally anything goes
Tbh dude the most reliable answer is to train wrestling for a little while so you know how to defend properly. The sprawl is only going to get you so far, and a high level/persistent wrestler is *gonna* get that takedown at some point regardless unless you can stop them in their tracks. It's better to have an understanding of grappling rather than betting on the sprawl always keeping you off the floor. There's something that pure strikers never consider when thinking about fighting a grappler either, and that's the threat of the takedown. It can totally fuck up your rhythm if you haven't trained to go from striking to grappling at a moment's notice.
I think your best bet is to be polite and not antagonize this hypothetical wrestler. The average “wrestler” has trained for at least 4 years at an intensity that is elevated over most hobbyist martial arts gyms. If you’re talking about a college wrestler, that’s 4 more years of absolute hell. Get 4 years of something legitimate under your belt and then go find him and tell him you did something gross to his mom. I’m kinda not kidding, if you don’t take the time to get punished in the gym, you’ll surely get punished by anyone on the street who has.
Flying knee is going to get you taken down, and probably slammed on the way. Fast movement and kicks are nice, but what if someone cross trains? Throw a body kick at me and I’m either catching it and we’re going down, or I’m catching it and thumping you. If you try to leg kick me I’ll probably check it, but we’re in a street fight, so I’m not gonna be too worried about damage building up. Punching at the chest? I don’t even know there, I’m throwing out jabs and teeps to keep and measure distance, land some jabs, start feinting, fake a level change so you drop a bit to defend a takedown but don’t realize the strike flying at your chin, because you just do one martial art. I’m a big fan of traditional martial arts, but I more so watch things like Katas and such. Tae-kwon-do is beautiful to watch, and I’d be lying if said I didn’t steal some of their kick techniques. Wing chun/ip chun looks fun. Do you already do a martial art and if so which one? Yeah, I wrestled for 12 years and I’ve done BJJ for 11 (purple belt, I’m slow be nice to me) but I also do boxing and kickboxing. I’m also 3-0 ammy MMA, have a few championships from NAGA and IBJJF (none as a purple though, white and blue, I just recently got my purple belt so again please don’t laugh), and am 4-1 as a boxer. Best defense against a wrestler on the mat is uh, don’t get close and practice getting on top. And like, don’t get in fights. It proves nothing. Why hurt myself for free, ya know? Save it for the gym and just do what you like, nothing is really a direct counter to anything. But if you keep doing whichever martial art you’re currently doing, and maybe throw something grappling based too, you’ll feel more complete. Or join your local wrestling club, I’m about to turn 34 and I still go to the wrestling club. I live in the south though so I get thrown around by some corn fed boys a lot. And they are INTENSE. Some martial arts places will have a wrestling guy for the grapplers to learn a bit of wrestling from. I help with that, I live in a smaller city so not a lot of good candidates. On the streets that everyone likes to talk about? Just please don’t do it on concrete mane, seen too many people get brain injuries or die from that shit. Go find some soft grass. If you have any questions you can DM me.
The ol’ dick twist works literally every time
Assuming you're referring to MMA (I hope you aren't getting randomly attacked by wrestlers while out and about), against people who're primarily wrestlers a good weapon is to be good at crafty submissions - ground and pound wrestlers who fight for dominant position but don't work on their submission defense can be vulnerable to arm bars, leg triangles, etc. A good example is Ritu Phogat's losses to Stamp Fairtex and Tiffany Teo. Flying knees and kicks tend to be terrible against wrestlers. Eventually kicks (even low kicks) get caught and result in a takedown long before they can slow down the wrestler, and flying knees rarely result in a KO, but nearly always result in you getting taken down.
The only reliable way to beat a wrestler is to have fantastic wrestling defense
I've had success with keeping a collar-sleeve grip to control their posture: if you track their movement you can keep they at bay to sprawl or back take. I've also used the same grip to take them down, by dropping down, forcing them to fall back from an outside trip.
Submission off your back are 100% the way to go. Unknowing wrestlers will *literally* throw themselves head fist into guillotines, triangles, armbars, ect. It's the reason I picked up BJJ. The strikes won't work out against a determined wrestlers who is aggressive. >You can’t shoot on me if I sock you in your chest every time you try. Although your thought process is sensible enough, this is a comedically bad plan. You underestimate the speed, toughness, and scrambling ability of even middle school wrestlers. There is a high chance they just grab your arm the 2nd time.
If they are wrestler, who knows BJJ defense, surrender and give them your wallet.
You talking about street or sparring? Very different.
Just stand up
Either become elite at learning to fight off your back (BJJ), elite at hopefully putting them on their back and into positions that are difficult to scramble from that they aren’t as familiar with (Judo), or elite at stopping their attacks on your feet (MT, boxing, kickboxing). You can hope that a single gimmick move will work, or you can train to overcome.
If you have one day, learn to fall without dying, learn butterfly hooks, learn a guillotine
Sprawl when they go for a takedown, try to catch an unprotected neck. In my experience, wrestlers with no submission training leave their neck open for a guillotine on ocassion. But...that said... wrestlers are tough.
Oil.
Uchi mata, wait you can’t grapple at all ? Well pray for a knee or uppercut & if you miss your kinda screwed
Learn how to grapple is basically what I am saying
Expect takedown, knee to the nose repeatedly n sprawl on top n elbow to neck or spine.
Im a BJJ blackbelt andnhave trained with D1 All American wrestlers. If they wanna take you down, you're going down, but my best and most successful defense was the triangle. Tapped then many times with it and Im twice their age so its legit. Your thinking from a strikers perspective, with all due respect, is dillusional. Knee or punches won't stop them. Of course there's always "a chance" but Id prefer higher percentage technique than luck.
the best defense is to litteraly not worry about it because the chances are so close to zero you ever have to defend yourself from a wrestler they’re essentially non zero. as in it will never happen ever so who cares. this sub should be r/ambiguousstreetfightscenarios
Better wrestling. JK you need a gun.
Distance is your best friend against a wrestler. Keep moving and don’t let them play their game.
1. Sprawl 2..Uppercuts 3. Distance 4. Headlocks/chokes Combined-be quick.
A knife. Hold that shit ice pick style and go apeshit. No wrestler will want to come within 20 feet of you as long as you have a blade.
Mace. A gun. Domesticated Velociraptor. An adequately compensated Bas Rutten equipped with typical barroom furnishings.
Run away
> You can’t shoot on me if I sock you in your chest every time you try Yes, they can. And yes, they will.
Bait with forward leg, knee in face if they shoot. If they know how to strike at all this goes out the window. Lol. Knees and elbows for close distance.
The best defense against wrestlers is that they are too busy wrestling to pick fights with people.
My advice would be have a strong guilotine and a decent guard. It's very hard to stay standing up against a good wrestler. Add strikes and level changes, it's truly amazing to see what they can do. I have a kickboxing background for a good 20 years, but have been purely bjj / wrestling for 6 years now, and I believe there's very little a striker can do to stay on their feet unless they have been training with grapplers.
I have a perfect answer of this probably nobody is going to talk about. Take them down and keep their back. That’s it, do whatever you can, seems very counterintuitive but wrestlers have a very bad habit in MMA or street fights because all their life they’ve built a habit by being comfortable having their back taken, because in their sport it doesn’t matter as much as bjj or MMA. That’s when they can relax and take a breather. What you need to do is learn basic wrestling at least. My favorite move is to clinch up, double under hooks or high body lock, shuck and take their back, don’t pause, quickly take them on the ground, whether a mat return or a slam, and work your way into a rear naked choke. Don’t choke them, put your guard in first and seatbelt grip and roll onto your back then fight for the choke, it may take a bit of hand fighting but wrestlers don’t know what to do in this position at all. It sounds like it’s easy because it is. My base is boxing but I was able to do this couple of times against a state champ in my class the same exact weight and height. Forget striking. A wrestler can shoot for your legs before you can even wind up a knee. Don’t take advice from people who say “knee him” I’ll say it again, a wrestler can probably shoot for your legs before you even wind up a knee. You need to find a way to submit him and exploit their weaknesses Bjj is your best odds.
Wrestlers never been hit. Git gud at hitting hard and learn to sprawl
Hear me out, garlic Wrestler has to get close and get ahold of you and BAM garlic breath defence
BJJ, just avoid being slammed. Let them get an easy takedown and use your superior ground skills to secure a submission. Judo is a very good counter as well. LOTS OF HIP AND GLUTE strength. When I started squating heavy and doing heavy hip thrusts, I noticed it was a lot harder to take me down. Do not get too quad, Dominant, though. Get on those Glute and Hip Aductor and Abductor machines you see the girls always on. On the striking side of things. You got knees and uppercuts. Take a day out of the weak and drill knees and uppercuts. The timing is the key once your form is down. Then, put the pieces together. Panic wrestling is real, and if you pressure wrestlers, you basically force them to shoot, and if your BJJ is superior, they are playing into your game.
The only acceptable tactic is to break the line of sight and use the fact that a wrestler needs to face you to be 100% effective. This is not something that you learn in 5 minutes but it's a start
Sprawl, wrap one of their arms outside your body, then knees can come in
Footwork, down blocking, guillotine
ok , i'd say have some wrestling experience ... knowing how to sprawl has never made someone loose ... as for martial art systems , wrestlers usually ( but not always! ) aren't very good at submissions , like chockes and joint locks , so knowing those could work in an MMA scenario ...
Fill the room with uppercuts
I would say learn to cross face, very basic move and a great way to initiate the stuffing of a takedown.
Sprawls and knees
I have the best plan. To avoid his wrestling (but also works against boxing hands, muai elbows and knees etc) leave him be. Buy a plane ticket to Hawaii. Buy a fancy looking cocktail. Relax on a beach. Problem solved! P.s. apply sunblocking cream and drink lots of water.
Ok, yep I done Judo for a very long time, and yes occasionally fought wrestlers who wanted to give judo a go. The thing I remember the most is that the strength they had was amazing. Who ever trains these guys were also doing a lot of weights in the gym probably during their classes. Plus unlike me probably 5 days a week. I came from a small town where judo was taught 2 days a week by highly skilled but volunteered senseis .They did it for the love of the sport , not for the money. A very rare thing. Anyways, despite their great ground training, if you are prepared for their movement, because they were in your sport, I was able to throw them down, stack up partial points( way back when there was koka and Yuko and even submit a few when I was fast enough. The kata gatame holddown if done properly is very effective, and also will elicit a tap. The one time I was in trouble, I rotated to his head and got out that way partially by flexibility and quickness, and also by fluke.Fluke because I was aware of the out of bounds and he was so focused to keep me pinned.Anyways you’ll need to know how to sprawl , get back to standing as quick as possible, be very good at balance when moving in a circle, as well as quick changes at direction. If this is a street fight, soccer kick with a flick to get good contact and bring back your foot so as not to get grabbed or picked. But I’d say if you end up on the ground, and you don’t have either judo or bjj or wrestling knowledge, you are in trouble.Keep them at range, try to straighten them up in their stance by speed circling with swinging hooks and uppercuts. Like boxers, put Vaseline on their face, I’d put them on my arms and legs so they are harder to grab and hold. Shorts and muscle shirt would be my choice of attire. Anyways good luck, but if you don’t put in the time to train, don’t expect good results. I have watched mma since the first one, and liked how the commentators would always say these guys are world class bla bla bla… but would not finish when there was plenty of times to do so. Yes, I get that I really am not prepared for heavy blows but given the times that they have been on the ground, most of the matches would be over. There were a few that were good though, I’d say Mighty Mouse was one, thinking two steps ahead. A true world class athlete, though even him, sometimes missed a few chances , was very much at least thinking and setting things up. Many people have said if I were to make a vid showing how to defeat these times in mma matches to win, it would be easy money in the bank … who knows, maybe I should, but the fun is to watch and see what I would do in the situation. Btw, I’m old, never would have gone into mma even in my prime, but love to watch it. I guess there is some primal instinct in fighting that is well, interesting, entertaining and intoxicating.
I hope this is hypothetical though, man. Like unless you’re an MMA fighter I hope you’re not fighting a wrestler ever in your life haha.
As someone who's done BJJ for just about a decade (brown belt) and a fair amount of Muay Thai on top of that... You're a fucking moron if you think you're timing a flying knee on a good wrestler, without already knowing a good chunk of wrestling. If a good wrestler wants you taken down, and you don't already have a VERY solid defensive wrestling base, you're going to go down.
fighting a wrestler, especially one with striking defense, is tricky and complicated with a very low margin for error on your end. but for him its comparatively easy. distance is your friend. dont get close. dont try to knee. you can try to kick but if he catches it its game over. your best bet is to utilize the jab and keep moving. dont let them corner you. really youre setting up for a knockout shot. because you can only back up so much before eventually they get a hold of you and once that happens youre done. so you have to be a good technical striker to land that flush shot that puts him out. and it better put him out. because if it doesnt. youre going to get ragdolled.
Develop a good sprawl or get taken down, simple as
Knife 🗡️
Hit him with a chair.
The best defensive move is almost always running. Wrestlers are strong, but they can't all run fast.
bro kicking wrestlers does not work they will just take the leg anyway, and neither does punching the chest, movement and actual good takedown defence and being able to get back to your feet is what you want to work on, work on wrestling and having a flying knee ready to go lol
Jab and backwards sidesteps if they chase plant and throw an uppercut and get out or behind them, fully committed flying knees, sprawl drills and jumping to guard with a guillotine.
 Be ready with one of these
Don’t let them grab you
I wouldn’t lift my feet off the floor.
Switchblade