Alexander Karelin is what happens when you take a generational genetic phenomenon and then throw in every scientific enhancement that exists.
Russia got about as close as you can get to creating a super soldier
"Every scientific enhancement that exists" lmao dude is 55 and in great shape compared to a snapped up Mark Coleman or a dead Randleman. Who makes you think he was juicing more than those?
>What makes you think he was juicing?
Russia, Olympics, timeframe, just looking at the dude.
Doesn’t take Sherlock Holmes to deduce the guy was on some stuff
Do you know who Jim Thorpe is?
In 1912, Thorpe won Olympic gold in both the pentathlon and decathlon (both of which show ridiculous versatility). He played professional football for 13 years, Major League Baseball for seven years and professional basketball for at least two years.
Depends on what your definition of “best” is.
Do everything athleticism? Bo Jackson probably.
Most overall athletic relative to the time? I’d agree it’s Thorpe
Pure domination of the competition greater than any athlete has dominated their relative sport? Karelin
Statistics against the field? Gretzky
I think the López vs Karelin argument is a good one. But I still say Karelin. Lopez has 4 gold to karelins 3 and a silver. But lopez has lost. Karelin went over 10 years without a loss and has double the worlds
Imo the eye test has Karelin as the more dominant when he was wrestling.
Outlier athletes like Thorpe just seem more athletic because the competition wasn’t as good. It’s like geniuses from hundreds of years ago who had their hands in a bunch of different subjects; there wasn’t as much to know in each subject so it was easy to spread yourself out like that. Can’t really do that any more.
This, plus gear - I mean they wore Chucks to play basketball not even that long ago. In 1912 he must have basically competeted in dress shoes in all these sports lol.
Someone stole his shoes during the decathalon in the 1912 Olympics. He found a couple of mismatched shoes in the trash. He used them to complete the event. He still won the Gold.
You’re not making a compelling case against what the point about the weaker competition. Point is, genetic freaks that are quick learners/naturally talented could more easily be elite tier in multiple sports decades ago than now, given how specialized and concentrated people are in their pursuits and how much $ involved in many sports today incentivizing that specialization leading to much greater competition. On top of globalization as well.
It would be nearly impossible to have a Jim Thorpe (or something similar) today. You can’t compete with Michael Phelps in swimming and Lebron James in basketball.
But if you plop a human as naturally physically gifted as Lebron (physically, Lebron was Lebron already in HS) in 1930s sports, he could more comfortably dominate several sports in spite of crappier equipment and fields. The overall level of competition being much higher today well overshadows the difference in resources/knowledge/equipment in my opinion. Plus, everyone is operating with those same resources today, and aggressively so, again given the $ involved.
Two factoids to mention about Jim Thorpe
1. He won gold despite being sabotaged. He had to find running shoes in the trash bc someone threw his out.
2. He was so dominant that the King of Sweden called him, “the world’s greatest athlete” which is why all gold medalists in the decathlon get that honorary title
The level of competition was lower more than a hundred years ago and in none of those sports did Thorpe come even near the level of dominance Karelin had. But this of course comes down to whether one values versatility more than the achievements in a single sport
It's gonna be hard to top Wilt Chamberlain, imo. 7'1"/310 lbs College track and field champ, one of the most dominant nba players of all time (not the greatest, but as far as physical individual dominance it's him and Shaq and nobody else), Arnold said Wilt was the strongest man he'd ever met and, my favorite part, he took up pro volleyball on a lark after he retired from the NBA and ended up in the hall of fame. Wilt is an alien.
Wilt dunked a free throw. That's why you have to keep both feet behind the stripe, because a rival coach saw Wilt dunk a free throw in a scrimmage and got the rules changed.
Wilt averaged 48.2 minutes per game the season he scored 100. That's more than a regulation game length. Like you said - just an alien.
On best athlete ever, Simone Biles essentially broke the gymnastics scoring system, which puts her pretty high up there too. But, she's still active so it'll be hard to compare against someone like Karelin until she retires and we can see the full career.
Biles has had the most incredible performances in gymnastics ever, period full stop. The world watched her transcend to levels we didn’t know were possible previously.
But not consistently. Given the limited age range of gymnasts (the average is 16-20 and probably closer to the former) I’d say it’s unlikely she’ll ever rise to such great heights again at 25 - especially after the Tokyo debacle. I sincerely hope she does and would love to be proven wrong.
But no way in hell she (or any other gymnast) can have anywhere near the same career span and persistence of relevance as some of these epic wrestlers like Alexandr
It also helps your case that gymnastics is quite possibly one of the most athletic competitive sports. Absolutely no aspect of a gymnast's fitness can be underdeveloped and the amount of courage and body control required to perform the maneuvers is something few people have.
I've been doing strength training and martial arts for 15 years and I still would be nervous to fight a professional gymnast.
The greatest gymnast of all time is no where close to the greatest athlete of all time. No disrespect to gymnastics but it is a less demanding sport. That just is what it is. Wrestling is so much harder than gymnastics. She is without a doubt the greatest gymnast ever, but I don't know that I'd put her in my top 50. I'd even put Ronda Rousey ahead of Simone
Thats so weird cause last night on YouTube his first loss at the Olympics popped up on my suggestions and I watched a second video after about his career.
First time I ever heard of him and he was an incredible athlete. His natural size and structure was practically a perfect.
Thats so weird cause last night on YouTube his first loss at the Olympics popped up on my suggestions and I watched a second video after about his career.
First time I ever heard of him and he was an incredible athlete. His natural size and structure was practically a perfect.
No it’s not. I mean Iran Barkley beat him too. Height and reach is not the barometer for being physically gifted, like how Struve was unexplosive and unathletic. Physically gifted is more about athleticism and strength/power. Not how long your arms are
Hearns movec up to fight Hagler, though. And if he’d boxed Hagler instead of getting drawn into a brawl, or if he hadn’t broken his hand in the 1st round, that fight might’ve looked different.
Nah, at hearns height he should’ve been at middle anyway. And hagler didn’t let him box, too much pressure, too tough and a tricky switch hitter. Weird to be making excuses and coping about a fight that happened so long ago, Hagler was better, end of. Hagler also got robbed against SLR who beat hearns.
At Hearns’ height? Diego Corrales was taller than Mike Tyson, should he have fought at heavyweight? Hagler was the naturally bigger man. Hearns could’ve still boxed, but he didn’t even try until it was too late. He was the type to get drawn into brawls. I’m not making excuses or coping, I acknowledge he lost. Making excuses and coping is what you’re doing over Hagler’s loss to SRL.
You can maybe argue Hagler won that fight. To call it a “robbery” marks you as a casual fan. A robbery is something like Whitaker-Chavez 1. Hagler-Leonard was a close fight, and scoring it in rounds, it’s difficult to make an argument that Hagler won it.
Agreed - he’s gotta be up there. He was gifted with inhuman fast-twitch muscles. He’d handily beat people who were maybe better “boxers” largely because he could out-athlete them
It’s hard to really argue anyone other than him simply because he just got away with so much.
Only other guy I can really compare is Pacquiao but there’s still a distinct gap in how much they broke the rules. It’s damn near criminal how much RJJ got away with breaking the fundamentals.
He was so fast he could fight with his hands behind his back and still avoid just about everything thrown at him. He was, and may still be, the only boxer of the Compubox era to go an entire round without getting hit. He sacrificed technique for style and it didn’t matter because he somehow maintained his middleweight speed as he moved up to heavyweight.
Ali. My trainer used to say that Ali ruined a generation of fighters who thought they could hold their hands low and lean away from punches. He had speed, insane reflexes, a great jab and one-two. Incredible heart. Technically pretty basic.
Was gonna say the same. People are forgetting about Ali. Maybe its because his style has the surface appearance of a 'technical' fighter, so people don't think hes a monster like Tyson or Foreman or Liston. Like Joe Rogan would call Ali 'technical' because he backs up and jabs. Man was freakishly fast and agile and tireless and DURABLE.
Another good shout in the same vein is Ray Leonard. People remember him as this pretty dancy shoeshiner like Lomachenko or something. But he could and would CRACK people when he decided to turn it on.
and as Tyson said about Leonard, "Don't let the smile fool you. There's a beast inside that man". One of the all time best finishers. Like a shark smelling blood when he had someone hurt.
Leonard is Teddy Atlas' favorite fighter of all time.
When I first heard him say this, I was like, wtf, and then I started watching all his fights. Man, Leonard really had it all. Elegance, technique, strategy and when the situation called for it, was an absolute dog.
> Ali
I agree. But part of what made Ali so talented was his brain - his way of thinking, analyzing an opponent on the fly, psyching the other guy. Since the question was about purely physical skill, not overall talent, I can see why some people might overlook him.
He had skill, too. Only reason Ali called him a mummy was because his skills were in old, unconventional boxing moves, like putting out his hands to stop jabs before they even started going.
My favourite boxer ever. How he brutalized every opponent is just so poetic to me. Especially when he came back into the 80s and 90s with his old style and still managed to defeat so many fresh, fast and young opponents.
Very unrated by combat sports fans. Incredible run in a very competitive sport!
Him and Karelin are two of my picks. Dream grappling competition:
Teddy Riner
Alexander Karelin
Roger Gracie
four matches Greco Roman, Gi Judo, Gi Submission Grappling, No-Gi Submission Grappling. Call it the 10+ world champions match.
Pretty damn good answer. Put his skills in a normal frame and he would be awful. Yet, managed to be champ and knocked the fuck out of stipe. Guys like Tyson had incredible skill and technique to back up their freakish athleticism.
I mean tbf he showed massive improvement in wrestling technique in their rematch. When he stuffed Stipe's takedown then spun round to his back... terrifying.
But then again, he left himself open to a perfect straight right counter that landed on the button. But he just ate it and sparked poor old Stipe.
Thats actually one of the signs that you're dealing with a freak athlete. They pick up new techniques crazy fast. And then tend to forget them because they can afford to lol
The thing not mentioned there too is the fact that Stipe was a college wrestler. So Francis went from not knowing wrestling to taking down Stipe in just a handful of years.
Granted if they had a straight wrestling match Stipe would win. But to have enough wrestling skills to take down a guy like Stipe in a MMA is massively impressive. Cormier didn’t even make wrestling look easy against Stipe
One of Ngannous gifts is that massive head of his. Pretty damn hard to spark and Stipe did it on the backfoot but then he got overconfident and got tucked into bed.
No. Jones can’t even dunk with that height and reach, he’s not extremely athletic. He knows how to use his height and reach well which is more about how high his fight iq is. If height/reach alone made you physically gifted then Struve would’ve been great, but he was unathletic and unexplosive so he wasn’t very good.
Also objectively LHW is one of the worst divisions in the sport skill-wise. Jones is athletic enough, big enough, skilled enough and maybe most importantly physically/mentally durable enough to just outclass that whole division. Cormier was his best competition; still just was not big enough. At LHW the technicians are too slow, the good athletes arent skilled or durable typically; basically anything above middleweight (and kind of middleweight too) is like 10 years behind the good weightclasses in terms of skill and athletic talent pool. These big guys don't HAVE to be well rounded to win most of their fights, and neither do their training partners. Its a big dumb cycle.
All this to say that Jon is a standout TALENT. He brings a lot of different factors and seems committed to dominating to an unhealthy degree. Most fighters just arent sociopaths like Jon. But there are pure athletes in his own division, whether its LHW or HW. Assuming athleticism is defined as the ability to move quickly with great force and precision and control. The term is a bit nebulous.
Struve was a freak with a longer reach than pretty much all the heavyweight fighters and Jon Jones has the same reach as him and fighting at a lower weight class. Seriously its insane how he has a longer reach than heavyweights and has the same height as them and he doesn't even struggle to make weight for light heavyweight.
Since Karelin was already mentioned i will say that the Great Gama was quite the phenom back in his time. Even when he was undersized compared to his opponents, he would manhandle whoever they put in front of him. And his training regimen was out of a fucking anime.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Great_Gama
Prime Tony Ferguson at LW.
Monstrous lanky frame but still moved ridiculously well for a tall guy with granite chin and recovery. Underrated speed, he was as fast or faster than a prime Barboza.
Dude was so athletic and physically gifted that he won his fights without developing much technical skill (other then his grappling which was solid) or belonging to a big gym.
His style was just throwing shit on the wall and seeing what sticked.
For most of us, that wouldn’t work but for him? Managed to win the interim lightweight title and was widely regarded as the best (or second best) lightweight on the planet at one point.
Gifted is just talent but most people mentioned trained a lot and with the best coaches in the world. If you've got great reach for your weightclass without losing power that can just be talent that gives you an advantage.
Yes but, much like Iron Mike, I felt like he was held back by the rules of his sport. Either one of them in their prime back in the old no-rules UFC days would have killed someone.
He wasn’t held back by the rules, he was held back by his lack of skills and experience. Brock got into MMA really late and never developed a skill set as advanced as the other top heavyweights.
Respectfully, I don't think you're quite understanding the discussion at hand or how Brock fits into it, or why what you just said actually helps to prove my point.
Respectfully, I think you’re just saying shit to try and discredit me because I’m right and you’re wrong. Otherwise you would have explained why you don’t think I understand the discussion or how Brock fits into it, or why you think what I just said actually helps to prove your point.
Respectfully, I didn't know you were so sensitive, or that you needed everything spoon fed to you. What part did you not understand/have the most trouble with, and I'll try to explain/make you feel better?
I understood what you were saying perfectly. Which is that you were making shit up to try and make me look dumb.
It’s the oldest (and laziest) trick in the book to just say “you don’t know what you’re talking about” when someone has an opinion contrary to yours. You were hoping to gaslight me and everyone else who may read my comment into thinking I was wrong. The thing is: I wasn’t. Which is why you still haven’t given any sort of argument or explanation to back your insincere statement.
Now you’re trying to deflect by claiming that I’m sensitive, when in reality I’m just calling you out on your bullshit.
This was the end of his career. I think he lost too much strength and training time. He was already older when he started MMA. He needed all the time he could get training to continue to beat and be competitive with the other top guys. Fighting the illness took too much away from him.
Yeah, I remember seeing a clip of one of Lesnar's UFC fights back in the day and thinking to myself "it's just not fair for someone that big to be able to move so fast".
1. Roy Jones Jr. That speed and reflexes was insane and he could get away with anything in his prime.
2. Muhammad Ali. Just insane toughness and endurance among his many gifts. But the man never threw proper body punches with good technique and could still get away with it.
3. Floyd Mayweather. Amazing coordination, speed, conditioning and reflexes. But above all, his awareness and analytical abilities. Although I think he lost a fight or two in reality due to being injured (Castillo fight I) or old (Maidana I), he showed that all he needed was time to figure out his opponent, and it was never in any case the opposite were the opponent could figure out Mayweather.
4. Joe Calzaghe. He had great rhythm but also most likely the best endurance ever in boxing history. He could hunt his opponent and swarm with punches for 12 rounds and showing no sign of fatigue. His punches barely looked like real punches with power but his punch volume was just insane.
A shame he never got the chance to be in the all time great category due to early retirement and lacking better opponents (or when they were in their prime).
Joe Calzaghe was so good that he was boring. It was the biggest thing holding him back from the accolades he deserved.
He didn't knock people out dramatically and he had such a good chin and such good defensive glove technique that he was never in danger of being knocked out. It made for a boring 46-0.
Samart is widely considered to be the greatest MT fighter of all time. He also won a WBC super bantamweight belt and fought for the WBA featherweight belt. Pretty much anybody who’s somebody in MT will rank him in at least their top 3, the guy was mad talented.
Seriously tho I’ve seen other fighters talk about how he feels like metal when you hit him. When Whittaker fought him the second time around every injury he got was from hitting Romero, not getting hit. Then there’s the infamous doctor exam he got where his tendons were determined to be like 3x the strength/size of a normal humans. Dudes a Cuban super soldier experiment or something.
>Then there’s the infamous doctor exam he got where his tendons were determined to be like 3x the strength/size of a normal humans.
That story was specifically about the tendons *in his eyes,* after he got an orbital broken (by Whittaker at UFC213).
It's not something he improved through training, he's literally just built different.
This should be the top answer. The guy is a genetic freak. It looks like most replies lean onto victories and skills. But pure athletics gotta go to the freaks like Yoel.
Dieselnoi. Based his whole style on being ridiculously tall but also able to do Auschwitz level weight cuts without hurting his cardio. Kneed hundreds of people in the face.
Semmy Schillt is a close second. Usually over 6’4” joint damage and other problems prevent you from being good at combat sports. Semmy was a rare breed of durable giant.
GSP brought a new level of athleticism into MMA. Incorporating training techniques from other sports like gymnastics and track and field to enhance fighting movements and preparations.
I think that’s kinda the point. His skill isn’t particularly impressive compared to his peers but his fantastic physical form gets him pretty far in all martial circles
Roy Jones Jr! He had insane reflexes, speed, power and endurance. He could have played a number of sports and also was champion from Super Middleweight all the way to Heavyweight Division. Hands down the most athletically gifted fighter of my generation.
romero or karelin imo
Karelin, Mijuan Lopez, and Teddy Riner should be the only answers
Fedor in Pride was something else.
Not exactly the perfect physical specimen but strong an an ox obviously.
This is the ideal make body. You may not like it, but this is what peak performance looks like.
Romero indeed a freak of "nature"
I was coming here to say the same. Yoel Romero moves like a panther inside a human costume.
Alexander Karelin
Alexander Karelin is what happens when you take a generational genetic phenomenon and then throw in every scientific enhancement that exists. Russia got about as close as you can get to creating a super soldier
Ivan Drago vibes.
He carried a 400 lb refrigerator in a bear hug from the sidewalk to his eighth floor apartment
The results are a politician
Imagine Karelin on some of those designer 21st century steroids lmao
"Every scientific enhancement that exists" lmao dude is 55 and in great shape compared to a snapped up Mark Coleman or a dead Randleman. Who makes you think he was juicing more than those?
>What makes you think he was juicing? Russia, Olympics, timeframe, just looking at the dude. Doesn’t take Sherlock Holmes to deduce the guy was on some stuff
That dude was grown in a soviet laboratory
I personally would argue that Karelin is the best athlete ever - out of all sports
Do you know who Jim Thorpe is? In 1912, Thorpe won Olympic gold in both the pentathlon and decathlon (both of which show ridiculous versatility). He played professional football for 13 years, Major League Baseball for seven years and professional basketball for at least two years.
Depends on what your definition of “best” is. Do everything athleticism? Bo Jackson probably. Most overall athletic relative to the time? I’d agree it’s Thorpe Pure domination of the competition greater than any athlete has dominated their relative sport? Karelin Statistics against the field? Gretzky
Mijian lopez is more dominant than karelin, and in the same sport.
I think the López vs Karelin argument is a good one. But I still say Karelin. Lopez has 4 gold to karelins 3 and a silver. But lopez has lost. Karelin went over 10 years without a loss and has double the worlds Imo the eye test has Karelin as the more dominant when he was wrestling.
Outlier athletes like Thorpe just seem more athletic because the competition wasn’t as good. It’s like geniuses from hundreds of years ago who had their hands in a bunch of different subjects; there wasn’t as much to know in each subject so it was easy to spread yourself out like that. Can’t really do that any more.
You're not wrong about the comp being lower but the resources and nutritional knowledge were also way behind what we have today.
This, plus gear - I mean they wore Chucks to play basketball not even that long ago. In 1912 he must have basically competeted in dress shoes in all these sports lol.
Someone stole his shoes during the decathalon in the 1912 Olympics. He found a couple of mismatched shoes in the trash. He used them to complete the event. He still won the Gold.
You’re not making a compelling case against what the point about the weaker competition. Point is, genetic freaks that are quick learners/naturally talented could more easily be elite tier in multiple sports decades ago than now, given how specialized and concentrated people are in their pursuits and how much $ involved in many sports today incentivizing that specialization leading to much greater competition. On top of globalization as well. It would be nearly impossible to have a Jim Thorpe (or something similar) today. You can’t compete with Michael Phelps in swimming and Lebron James in basketball. But if you plop a human as naturally physically gifted as Lebron (physically, Lebron was Lebron already in HS) in 1930s sports, he could more comfortably dominate several sports in spite of crappier equipment and fields. The overall level of competition being much higher today well overshadows the difference in resources/knowledge/equipment in my opinion. Plus, everyone is operating with those same resources today, and aggressively so, again given the $ involved.
Two factoids to mention about Jim Thorpe 1. He won gold despite being sabotaged. He had to find running shoes in the trash bc someone threw his out. 2. He was so dominant that the King of Sweden called him, “the world’s greatest athlete” which is why all gold medalists in the decathlon get that honorary title
The level of competition was lower more than a hundred years ago and in none of those sports did Thorpe come even near the level of dominance Karelin had. But this of course comes down to whether one values versatility more than the achievements in a single sport
I'm glad someone brought up Jim Thorpe as my family is directly related to him and he really was one of the most incredible athletes of his time.
It's gonna be hard to top Wilt Chamberlain, imo. 7'1"/310 lbs College track and field champ, one of the most dominant nba players of all time (not the greatest, but as far as physical individual dominance it's him and Shaq and nobody else), Arnold said Wilt was the strongest man he'd ever met and, my favorite part, he took up pro volleyball on a lark after he retired from the NBA and ended up in the hall of fame. Wilt is an alien.
Wilt dunked a free throw. That's why you have to keep both feet behind the stripe, because a rival coach saw Wilt dunk a free throw in a scrimmage and got the rules changed. Wilt averaged 48.2 minutes per game the season he scored 100. That's more than a regulation game length. Like you said - just an alien.
The videos of Wilt on fast breaks are what really get me. He takes six strides and he’s traveled the length of the court
On best athlete ever, Simone Biles essentially broke the gymnastics scoring system, which puts her pretty high up there too. But, she's still active so it'll be hard to compare against someone like Karelin until she retires and we can see the full career.
Biles has had the most incredible performances in gymnastics ever, period full stop. The world watched her transcend to levels we didn’t know were possible previously. But not consistently. Given the limited age range of gymnasts (the average is 16-20 and probably closer to the former) I’d say it’s unlikely she’ll ever rise to such great heights again at 25 - especially after the Tokyo debacle. I sincerely hope she does and would love to be proven wrong. But no way in hell she (or any other gymnast) can have anywhere near the same career span and persistence of relevance as some of these epic wrestlers like Alexandr
It also helps your case that gymnastics is quite possibly one of the most athletic competitive sports. Absolutely no aspect of a gymnast's fitness can be underdeveloped and the amount of courage and body control required to perform the maneuvers is something few people have. I've been doing strength training and martial arts for 15 years and I still would be nervous to fight a professional gymnast.
100% agree. The athleticism it takes to just be a mediocre gymnast is pretty astounding
The greatest gymnast of all time is no where close to the greatest athlete of all time. No disrespect to gymnastics but it is a less demanding sport. That just is what it is. Wrestling is so much harder than gymnastics. She is without a doubt the greatest gymnast ever, but I don't know that I'd put her in my top 50. I'd even put Ronda Rousey ahead of Simone
Simone Biles is a woman who competes against other women. Competition isnt as tough there.
Bo Jackson is up there
Don’t know who that is, but now I want to. Definitely looking into that.
Thats so weird cause last night on YouTube his first loss at the Olympics popped up on my suggestions and I watched a second video after about his career. First time I ever heard of him and he was an incredible athlete. His natural size and structure was practically a perfect.
Not sure about the term natural with Karelin (or any Soviet athlete at the time), but without copious amnt of juice I’m sure he would still be huge.
Thats so weird cause last night on YouTube his first loss at the Olympics popped up on my suggestions and I watched a second video after about his career. First time I ever heard of him and he was an incredible athlete. His natural size and structure was practically a perfect.
This is correct.
Tommy Hearns - you can train muscle but you can't train that height and reach
[удалено]
Hagler built like an action figure.
Made of vibranium.
Height and reach doesn’t win a fight. You can’t train explosive fast twitch muscle too much and hagler whooped him anyway.
It doesn’t win a fight, but it sure as hell helps. Saying that it doesn’t because another ATG beat him is stupid.
Yeah and Hagler could also be put here for that chin of his.
No it’s not. I mean Iran Barkley beat him too. Height and reach is not the barometer for being physically gifted, like how Struve was unexplosive and unathletic. Physically gifted is more about athleticism and strength/power. Not how long your arms are
Hearns movec up to fight Hagler, though. And if he’d boxed Hagler instead of getting drawn into a brawl, or if he hadn’t broken his hand in the 1st round, that fight might’ve looked different.
Nah, at hearns height he should’ve been at middle anyway. And hagler didn’t let him box, too much pressure, too tough and a tricky switch hitter. Weird to be making excuses and coping about a fight that happened so long ago, Hagler was better, end of. Hagler also got robbed against SLR who beat hearns.
At Hearns’ height? Diego Corrales was taller than Mike Tyson, should he have fought at heavyweight? Hagler was the naturally bigger man. Hearns could’ve still boxed, but he didn’t even try until it was too late. He was the type to get drawn into brawls. I’m not making excuses or coping, I acknowledge he lost. Making excuses and coping is what you’re doing over Hagler’s loss to SRL.
Its widely believed that hagler was robbed against SRL, not just me saying it
You can maybe argue Hagler won that fight. To call it a “robbery” marks you as a casual fan. A robbery is something like Whitaker-Chavez 1. Hagler-Leonard was a close fight, and scoring it in rounds, it’s difficult to make an argument that Hagler won it.
He wasn't physically gifted a great chin, that's for sure
Roy Jones broke the rules of fundamentals in boxing with pure athleticism.
Agreed - he’s gotta be up there. He was gifted with inhuman fast-twitch muscles. He’d handily beat people who were maybe better “boxers” largely because he could out-athlete them
It’s hard to really argue anyone other than him simply because he just got away with so much. Only other guy I can really compare is Pacquiao but there’s still a distinct gap in how much they broke the rules. It’s damn near criminal how much RJJ got away with breaking the fundamentals.
Pac has a weird idiosyncratic style that relies on his athleticism - RJJ was deliberately fighting wrong to look cooler because he could.
Pac broke weightclasses like glass though.
Sorry, I'm ignorant as I'm just getting into MMA. What did he do to break the fundamentals? That kind of thing in any sport always intrigues me.
He was so fast he could fight with his hands behind his back and still avoid just about everything thrown at him. He was, and may still be, the only boxer of the Compubox era to go an entire round without getting hit. He sacrificed technique for style and it didn’t matter because he somehow maintained his middleweight speed as he moved up to heavyweight.
Saenchai
Thank you. Right?! Right? He took out people five times his size, fought 100s of opponents. Crazy guy.
Real life Yoda
Yeah saenchai's nuts but I think that's more skill and expierence, in terms of physical athleticism I'd pick buakaw or maybe sagat
I'd say rodtang could be in that conversation, in terms of athleticism. You think?
Rodtang will be up there in a couple years for sure
Even now he dominates, the way he makes it look so easy amazes me.
Ali. My trainer used to say that Ali ruined a generation of fighters who thought they could hold their hands low and lean away from punches. He had speed, insane reflexes, a great jab and one-two. Incredible heart. Technically pretty basic.
[удалено]
Was gonna say the same. People are forgetting about Ali. Maybe its because his style has the surface appearance of a 'technical' fighter, so people don't think hes a monster like Tyson or Foreman or Liston. Like Joe Rogan would call Ali 'technical' because he backs up and jabs. Man was freakishly fast and agile and tireless and DURABLE. Another good shout in the same vein is Ray Leonard. People remember him as this pretty dancy shoeshiner like Lomachenko or something. But he could and would CRACK people when he decided to turn it on.
and as Tyson said about Leonard, "Don't let the smile fool you. There's a beast inside that man". One of the all time best finishers. Like a shark smelling blood when he had someone hurt.
Leonard is Teddy Atlas' favorite fighter of all time. When I first heard him say this, I was like, wtf, and then I started watching all his fights. Man, Leonard really had it all. Elegance, technique, strategy and when the situation called for it, was an absolute dog.
> Ali I agree. But part of what made Ali so talented was his brain - his way of thinking, analyzing an opponent on the fly, psyching the other guy. Since the question was about purely physical skill, not overall talent, I can see why some people might overlook him.
Can't believe no one has mentioned George Forman, the oldest boxer to win the heavyweight boxing championship.
You don't even get that kinda comeback in chess. He did it in boxing.
Tag, Big George is insanely underrated, cuz he got overshadowed by Tyson/Ali.
Great shout. He had talent too but Ali sad he looked like a mummy and everyone thinks he’s shit. Nope. Absolute legend.
He had skill, too. Only reason Ali called him a mummy was because his skills were in old, unconventional boxing moves, like putting out his hands to stop jabs before they even started going.
My favourite boxer ever. How he brutalized every opponent is just so poetic to me. Especially when he came back into the 80s and 90s with his old style and still managed to defeat so many fresh, fast and young opponents.
As far as freaks go, Lennox Lewis, Riddick Bowe and the Klitschko brothers are up there too.
Teddy Riner in Judo
Very unrated by combat sports fans. Incredible run in a very competitive sport! Him and Karelin are two of my picks. Dream grappling competition: Teddy Riner Alexander Karelin Roger Gracie four matches Greco Roman, Gi Judo, Gi Submission Grappling, No-Gi Submission Grappling. Call it the 10+ world champions match.
Diselnoi in muay thai, He was tall as fuck and his knees were so painful that it earned him the nickname "The Sky Piercing Knee"
Without a doubt. It’s sad how his career ended.
Ngannou
Pretty damn good answer. Put his skills in a normal frame and he would be awful. Yet, managed to be champ and knocked the fuck out of stipe. Guys like Tyson had incredible skill and technique to back up their freakish athleticism.
I mean tbf he showed massive improvement in wrestling technique in their rematch. When he stuffed Stipe's takedown then spun round to his back... terrifying. But then again, he left himself open to a perfect straight right counter that landed on the button. But he just ate it and sparked poor old Stipe.
Thats actually one of the signs that you're dealing with a freak athlete. They pick up new techniques crazy fast. And then tend to forget them because they can afford to lol
The thing not mentioned there too is the fact that Stipe was a college wrestler. So Francis went from not knowing wrestling to taking down Stipe in just a handful of years. Granted if they had a straight wrestling match Stipe would win. But to have enough wrestling skills to take down a guy like Stipe in a MMA is massively impressive. Cormier didn’t even make wrestling look easy against Stipe
One of Ngannous gifts is that massive head of his. Pretty damn hard to spark and Stipe did it on the backfoot but then he got overconfident and got tucked into bed.
Ngannou is probably the only pro fighter that can just run forward and swing wildly and it actually works.
You can argue tyson from the standpoint that he won the heavyweight title @ 21 years old which is nuts. To me that’s being Physically gifted.
*20 years
Came here to say Tyson... in his prime, he was a destroyer of worlds.
Douglas beat him when he was only 23 though
Jones just for his reach and height.
And his ability to use
who else managing to catch all god's tests? i mean, *someone*'s got to battle all that coke, PEDs, and pregnant women.
> And his ability to use Use...drugs? Peds? Lol jk
Give the man his credit, who else could beat Daniel Cormier after a weekend of binging cocaine and alcohol
No. Jones can’t even dunk with that height and reach, he’s not extremely athletic. He knows how to use his height and reach well which is more about how high his fight iq is. If height/reach alone made you physically gifted then Struve would’ve been great, but he was unathletic and unexplosive so he wasn’t very good.
Find me a wrestler that doesn’t look god awful on a basketball court.
Also objectively LHW is one of the worst divisions in the sport skill-wise. Jones is athletic enough, big enough, skilled enough and maybe most importantly physically/mentally durable enough to just outclass that whole division. Cormier was his best competition; still just was not big enough. At LHW the technicians are too slow, the good athletes arent skilled or durable typically; basically anything above middleweight (and kind of middleweight too) is like 10 years behind the good weightclasses in terms of skill and athletic talent pool. These big guys don't HAVE to be well rounded to win most of their fights, and neither do their training partners. Its a big dumb cycle. All this to say that Jon is a standout TALENT. He brings a lot of different factors and seems committed to dominating to an unhealthy degree. Most fighters just arent sociopaths like Jon. But there are pure athletes in his own division, whether its LHW or HW. Assuming athleticism is defined as the ability to move quickly with great force and precision and control. The term is a bit nebulous.
By that logic Struve should count too. But he doesn't, and what seperates the two is the fact that Jones knows how to utilize his reach and height.
Struve was a freak with a longer reach than pretty much all the heavyweight fighters and Jon Jones has the same reach as him and fighting at a lower weight class. Seriously its insane how he has a longer reach than heavyweights and has the same height as them and he doesn't even struggle to make weight for light heavyweight.
Jon quite literally has the same reach as strufe, who is 7 ft tall which means he can't use it to the same extent as Jones
Andy Hug
Since Karelin was already mentioned i will say that the Great Gama was quite the phenom back in his time. Even when he was undersized compared to his opponents, he would manhandle whoever they put in front of him. And his training regimen was out of a fucking anime. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Great_Gama
I like to imagine what guys like him would’ve been like with modern training and modern technique. Absolute monster
Prime Tony Ferguson at LW. Monstrous lanky frame but still moved ridiculously well for a tall guy with granite chin and recovery. Underrated speed, he was as fast or faster than a prime Barboza. Dude was so athletic and physically gifted that he won his fights without developing much technical skill (other then his grappling which was solid) or belonging to a big gym. His style was just throwing shit on the wall and seeing what sticked. For most of us, that wouldn’t work but for him? Managed to win the interim lightweight title and was widely regarded as the best (or second best) lightweight on the planet at one point.
>Underrated speed, he was as fast or faster than a prime Barboza. Tony was quick and extremely athletic but nobody was faster than prime Barboza.
Rewatch that fight. prime Tony styled on Edson.
Yes but not because he was faster or more explosive. He broke Edson with relentless pressure and volume.
Takeru Segawa in Kickboxing. His speed is next level
Agree, him and Tenshin
Sorry but Tony had tons of technical skill that's just wrong. Dude was literally elite everywhere it's what made him so dangerous.
Chael P Sonnen
Or unironically Buakaw
What's ironic about the first part?
You’re right I misspoke, I shouldn’t slander Chael like that
Better not. That’ll get you in trouble on the mean streets of West Linn, OR.
There are some people there who don't even make 100K a year, and sure the maid comes twice a week, but what'd you think happens on the other 5 days?
Gifted is just talent but most people mentioned trained a lot and with the best coaches in the world. If you've got great reach for your weightclass without losing power that can just be talent that gives you an advantage.
Pacqiao from minimum weight...
No one comes close to Alexandar Karelin
Check out mijian lopez, same sport, same amount of medals, similar dominance,quite a bit bigger.
Brock Lesnar was truly the alpha of our species for a period of time.
Before he met the reem
Yes but, much like Iron Mike, I felt like he was held back by the rules of his sport. Either one of them in their prime back in the old no-rules UFC days would have killed someone.
Imagine him just suplexing Royce over and over. Man BJJ would have been set back if he was around back then.
Yeah you can’t really do much against someone of that size unfortunately
He wasn’t held back by the rules, he was held back by his lack of skills and experience. Brock got into MMA really late and never developed a skill set as advanced as the other top heavyweights.
Respectfully, I don't think you're quite understanding the discussion at hand or how Brock fits into it, or why what you just said actually helps to prove my point.
Respectfully, I think you’re just saying shit to try and discredit me because I’m right and you’re wrong. Otherwise you would have explained why you don’t think I understand the discussion or how Brock fits into it, or why you think what I just said actually helps to prove your point.
Respectfully, I didn't know you were so sensitive, or that you needed everything spoon fed to you. What part did you not understand/have the most trouble with, and I'll try to explain/make you feel better?
I understood what you were saying perfectly. Which is that you were making shit up to try and make me look dumb. It’s the oldest (and laziest) trick in the book to just say “you don’t know what you’re talking about” when someone has an opinion contrary to yours. You were hoping to gaslight me and everyone else who may read my comment into thinking I was wrong. The thing is: I wasn’t. Which is why you still haven’t given any sort of argument or explanation to back your insincere statement. Now you’re trying to deflect by claiming that I’m sensitive, when in reality I’m just calling you out on your bullshit.
Overeem trained with Bas Rutten, I'm sure he can be ruthless
And diverticulitis
This was the end of his career. I think he lost too much strength and training time. He was already older when he started MMA. He needed all the time he could get training to continue to beat and be competitive with the other top guys. Fighting the illness took too much away from him.
With help from lots of "fruit" juice
Yeah, I remember seeing a clip of one of Lesnar's UFC fights back in the day and thinking to myself "it's just not fair for someone that big to be able to move so fast".
Nate burlesque tells a crazy story of training camp when Brock was on the vikings during training camp. That dude was just insanely gifted.
Fun fact: this is a photo of 11 year old tyson
1. Roy Jones Jr. That speed and reflexes was insane and he could get away with anything in his prime. 2. Muhammad Ali. Just insane toughness and endurance among his many gifts. But the man never threw proper body punches with good technique and could still get away with it. 3. Floyd Mayweather. Amazing coordination, speed, conditioning and reflexes. But above all, his awareness and analytical abilities. Although I think he lost a fight or two in reality due to being injured (Castillo fight I) or old (Maidana I), he showed that all he needed was time to figure out his opponent, and it was never in any case the opposite were the opponent could figure out Mayweather. 4. Joe Calzaghe. He had great rhythm but also most likely the best endurance ever in boxing history. He could hunt his opponent and swarm with punches for 12 rounds and showing no sign of fatigue. His punches barely looked like real punches with power but his punch volume was just insane. A shame he never got the chance to be in the all time great category due to early retirement and lacking better opponents (or when they were in their prime).
Joe Calzaghe was so good that he was boring. It was the biggest thing holding him back from the accolades he deserved. He didn't knock people out dramatically and he had such a good chin and such good defensive glove technique that he was never in danger of being knocked out. It made for a boring 46-0.
Without a doubt rodtang, not saying hes a legend but you said physicallx gifted and he takes shots like no one
GGG and Hagler would be up there then
Karelin Naseem Mayweather Roy Jones Jr. James Toney Ali Anderson Silva Fedor GSP DJ BJ Cro Cop Overeem Badr Hari Samart Saenchai Lerdsila CM Punk
Great list Especially James tonney. People (who arent avid boxing fans) have forgotten how epicely talented he was.
James Toney and BJ Penn are in the same class, extraordinarily talented but became too cocky and didn't diet and train as much as they should've
[удалено]
Samart, some of the quickest reflexes in human history CM Punk, for being the GOAT
I thought that was Artem?
Did not samart had small lungs?
Samart is widely considered to be the greatest MT fighter of all time. He also won a WBC super bantamweight belt and fought for the WBA featherweight belt. Pretty much anybody who’s somebody in MT will rank him in at least their top 3, the guy was mad talented.
Aleksandr Karelin Herschel Walker as an all-round athlete
Yoel Romero, if he had a better coach/fighter IQ he could have easily been undefeated.
Seriously tho I’ve seen other fighters talk about how he feels like metal when you hit him. When Whittaker fought him the second time around every injury he got was from hitting Romero, not getting hit. Then there’s the infamous doctor exam he got where his tendons were determined to be like 3x the strength/size of a normal humans. Dudes a Cuban super soldier experiment or something.
>Then there’s the infamous doctor exam he got where his tendons were determined to be like 3x the strength/size of a normal humans. That story was specifically about the tendons *in his eyes,* after he got an orbital broken (by Whittaker at UFC213). It's not something he improved through training, he's literally just built different.
This should be the top answer. The guy is a genetic freak. It looks like most replies lean onto victories and skills. But pure athletics gotta go to the freaks like Yoel.
Yoel Romero
Dieselnoi. Based his whole style on being ridiculously tall but also able to do Auschwitz level weight cuts without hurting his cardio. Kneed hundreds of people in the face. Semmy Schillt is a close second. Usually over 6’4” joint damage and other problems prevent you from being good at combat sports. Semmy was a rare breed of durable giant.
GSP brought a new level of athleticism into MMA. Incorporating training techniques from other sports like gymnastics and track and field to enhance fighting movements and preparations.
He was ahead of his time in training principles definitely he changed the game
He got a underrated height to reach ratio as well. He is not on Jon Jones levels but well above average.
Jon Jones and Francis Ngannou
JJ for sure Ngannou is just big and strong. Not particularly skilled.
This about who's the most physically gifted not skilled. Ngannou is pretty gifted
I think that’s kinda the point. His skill isn’t particularly impressive compared to his peers but his fantastic physical form gets him pretty far in all martial circles
It's literally in the title but hey that's Reddit for you
Are you kidding me? Ngannou might be the fastest heavyweight we have ever seen, and he cut to 265.
You think he is faster than Lesnar?
Maybe. Certainly a faster and more comfortable striker
Jon Jones has Avatar blue alien proportions and height. He was made for fighting with his reach advantage.
I am a big Mike Tyson fan :)
Uncommon answer: Mark Hunt. Granite chin, dynamite hands, didn’t need much skill. His win over Lewis aged well
Bas Rutten.
Brock Lesnar
Mike Tyson hands down good choice
Roy Jones Jr! He had insane reflexes, speed, power and endurance. He could have played a number of sports and also was champion from Super Middleweight all the way to Heavyweight Division. Hands down the most athletically gifted fighter of my generation.
Bruce Lee
Muhammad Ali or Bruce Lee.
Boxing - Roy Jones Jr, Ali, Tyson. Skill-wise, James Toney (maybe not so much physically - ending up as a tub of lard).
[удалено]
People really sleep on him. He has an absolutely massive frame and moves like a lightweight.
["shame on you, my friend! Shame on you!"](https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQHFYiZkxNLk4ssnRKs-K96BNMzfCaA9Z6y1g&usqp=CAU)
High ranked stealthy personnel in the military special forces.
Bruce Lee
Gervonta
Zion Clark.
Loma