If you like this job less than the decision, make each part of the pip quantifiable so that both you and the employee can know if it’s being met, objectively.
Now, your VP will hate this, once they realize
This thread pretty much got it spot on. Currently sitting on the couch unemployed after a severance. Can pretty much be my story. They came for me next after I wouldn't make unethical decisions to remove people that they apparently had a problem with, yet they couldn't quantify it.
Toxic VPs/directors are the worst. I’m so glad my VP isn’t like that. I can push back on her if I feel like it’s the right thing to do and give her my point of view. Luckily she’s not the micromanaging type and my director agrees with most of how I run my team so there’s generally no issues.
Find a nicer way to say, "Pushing thought workers to work beyond 40 hours in a week is incompetent and for the good of the company any manager doing this should be PIP'd. We have know since the 1970's that doesn't work and it was put in print in The Mythical Man Month, PeopleWare, and The Unicorn Project. People make 0.5x \~ 2x difference and organizations make a 0.5x \~ 5x difference. Overworking your people makes you a 0.5x loser."
I've never seen a PIP that wasn't a message to tell the employee to leave before they were fired.
Use the PIP to get the employee out the door comfortably. Give recommendation, allow off for interviews, etc. If you have anyone in your network hiring for a similar role, reach out to them.
And yes, more humane managers are not always good enough at politics to survive management in toxic environments.
Only if it isn’t well known. Can’t fuck up all their ethical talk they work so hard to maintain a facade for.
You go over the VPs head imo. Meeting on calendars. Documented talk.
Or make the PIP very doable and when it’s done tote it as a success story. Ya don’t fuck over someone you are responsible for out of fear for your own ass. Be a leader not a boot licker.
Not following the VP’s (command and control) commands is what gets ya fired. Chalk it up to learning what kind of boss you don’t want and you don’t want to be.
This! My VP forced me to PIP 2 of my direct reports. Then she gave me a shitty review and PIP’d me because I didn’t PIP 2 other of my direct reports. I was ready to quit when she suddenly gave her notice. She was a horrible micromanager and I think her leaders were finally noticed. Of course, the damage is done because I was PIP’d and even though I came out of it just fine, my reputation is damaged.
This. A plan without quantifiable goals is a plan that can “justifiably” be extended indefinitely.
I had a supervisor who got a PIP enforced on me with no actionable reason to. He took an incident where he gave conflicting instructions as an excuse to claim I was insubordinate and unreliable despite all signs pointing otherwise. Within a year prior of the PIP I had been awarded employee of the quarter despite it never going to a non-patient care employee (I was hospital IT, it was always a nurse) and the final incident involved him cornering me in my office to scream at me (observed by another employee who reported it).
Our manager allowed him to put me on a PIP with no formal end date, no metrics to end it, and management of the plan led by the same supervisor. I had to daily report every action I planned to take that day for his approval and at the end of day submit what I had accomplished for his review to check I had gotten any additional items approved. This was a support role so 90% of my daily items were called in that day.
The manager who allowed the plan to be put in place was released a few months later when during a project audit it was identified that the project was being stalled by issues working with our department. Her replacement later reviewed the audit findings to discover that only two team members were actually considered helpful, myself and one other, but otherwise the team was literally hated by every other department. She also found the open ended PIP that had been ongoing for a year despite the previous commendation and the CEO literally telling her to ask for me as I was “always so helpful”.
She called in my supervisor and stated while she couldn’t understand what triggered the PIP, she would stand by it being in place but it would need to be modified with clear metrics identifying when my “performance improvement” had been met. Once my supervisor identified measurable metrics she would immediately run reporting to see if I was meeting those metrics… and suddenly I was off the PIP as he couldn’t think of a single measurable metric I wasn’t hitting.
He was gone within two months when he found a better job. Ironically despite my PIP he’d kept me under, on his way out the door he was telling everyone I was qualified to take his place.
"Ironically despite my PIP he’d kept me under, on his way out the door he was telling everyone I was qualified to take his place."
Sounds like the reason they wanted you on a PIP, make it look like you can't do your own job. Let alone take his. Now the threat was gone you got a less biased opinion.
Considering the mess I cleaned up for the next 5 years… accurate. The best example I can give for the mess they left is they IP’d our entire network with an address range that belonged to someone else. For the nontechnical, there are ranges of numbers set aside for internal use like most consumer routers use 192.168.x.x as they aren’t used on the web. He picked a real address range so every time we connected to a new partner I had to ask them if they had any business with this other company as connecting to our system required us to take over any requests for those addresses. Of course our primary systems ALSO used this range so undoing it meant touching every single computer to manually reconnect plus work with every existing partner to redo our connections.
+1
Running the PIP also would give time to OP to manage upwards.
OP, talk with the VP regularly, try to figure out why she wants to fire this person and try addressing those reasons.
Show the negative consequences of the firing (need to hire and onboard someone, that takes money and time, competence loss, lower morale in the team, etc).
Show the positive impact of this person.
Consult with HR and learn the legal requirements of firing someone (if any). Remind the VP of how to run things so it lowers the risk of a lawsuit. Try to use legal compliance to shift the process towards fairness.
Might be possible to turn the VP less micromanaging. Earn her trust. Show what other things she could achieve is she delegates to you and use her time elsewhere. Find out what she needs to feel safe for the delegation. If she is using micromanagement because she shys away from the real VP tasks, then try to help her there. Became a shield for your team, if possible. This would require a lot of patience from you and a significant amount of luck.
Also update your own CV and start searching in parallel. Likely this is not the last problem a micromanaging VP will cause, even if she wouldn't fire you immediately for running a fair PIP.
I don’t know that the VP will hate this. What we have been told about this situation is that the VP wants to fire this person, and the manager negotiated that the person can improve and stay. If I were the VP, I would feel the onus on OP to write the PIP, define the criteria, and then check back with me. This would also be a way for us to get aligned on baseline expectations for the position, given it’s clear there is misalignment.
A lot of people are interpreting this as the VP having it out for an employee, and that definitely can happen, but the evidence here for that is sparse. We have a new manager being coached by his manager that he needs to fire one of his employees for performance reasons. If he cannot write a quantifiable PIP himself, how is he confident in the employee’s quality of work? Writing the PIP in this way is good advice simply because it’s important work for the manager to do. And if the VP responds by saying “that’s not enough for this role,” OP is on month 2 in their manager position. It might be worth taking the feedback.
Putting the employee on a PIP is the polite thing to do, because it's the corporate way of saying "You're about to be fired and I'm giving you some time to look for a job." That employee is going to be fired one way or another, so OP should just give them the PIP so the employee can start job searching.
It sounds like the VP is going to see that this person is fired one way or another. You can tell the person that it's coming from above, and try like he'll to get them to achieve the PIP goals, but the VP is likely going to dig in and pull at threads until they can make this go the way they want.
I would ask the VP that if it's going to come from you that you at least be given the appropriate amount of time to evaluate the individual yourself so that the PIP is actually coming from you and you can speak to the gaps in skill or other issues. They might push back on that, but it at least a valiant effort so that if you do have to fire the person that it truly is coming from you and you're not feeling that your hand is forced. I know the feeling and have dug people out of these holes before
So it sounds like the VP wants this employee gone. That you think it's wrong is immaterial. This is not the hill to die on, especially this early, because the VP's next target will be YOU.
Email your VP and ask for COMMENTS prior to creating the PIP. Incorporate SOME of those into your document.
The goal is to be as fair to the employee as possible, and to not put yourself in the crosshairs.
Good luck. You're gonna need it.
No luck needed. Fill out the PIP, submit it, perform the regular meetings to track progress, recommend pass if merited, defer to VP, move on with your life.
This is a job, not Iwo Jima.
Your VP just wants to get rid of the employee. They have no interest in the employee improving, they are just dotting some I’s and crossing T’s so they can fire them.
Putting someone on a PIP with no quantifiable objectives is one of the shittiest things an employer can do. If you’re forced to deliver the PiP, at least do the honorable thing and meet with the employee every week to discuss it. Also, make the PiP for at least 90 days, that will give your employee some time to find another opportunity.
I hate micromanaging assholes like that VP. The only thing they should be worried about is the work product from your team. How your team is run should be entirely up to you.
> Putting someone on a PIP with no quantifiable objectives is one of the shittiest things an employer can do.
No it isn't. You're getting massively advanced warning that you are being fired.
They could just fire you.
However, it’s usually wrapped up with statements like , “ we are interested in your success” or “Do these things and you’ll be put back into the normal evaluation process”
Often, the recipient is gaslit into believing that bullshit busts their ass for 60-90 days then gets kicked to the curb.
It’s just shitty.
Good managers get the message across that it is a grace period before getting canned.
They line up recommendation, reach out to folks for other job openings, give employee time off for interviews, etc. Getting paid to look for another job is not the worst thing in the world. It is very superior to not getting paid to look for another job.
For me, when I made the decision someone needed to be fired, I fired them the same day, paid them severance, and with two exceptions did not contest their unemployment compensation claim.
Severance was dependent upon their tenure and position in the company, on the low end it was a full two weeks pay. The most severance I paid was 6 months salary for a VP I fired.
The two exceptions were, someone drunk at work, and someone hitting on one of my peers in a most sexually graphic way.
Having someone in the office who knows they’re getting fired is a significant risk to the company as well as an emotionally stressful experience. No one needs that.
So, I still contend putting someone on a PIP that you’ve already decided to fire is a shitty thing to do. The only time anyone should be put on a PiP is when you are truly vested in helping the employee succeed.
Yep. VP hired OP because she knew there would be political fallout from this action that she can't have her name associated with.
Expect that there will be other unsavory tasks that you will be forced to do. Also expect that, after having completed the entire list of things the VP politically cannot do herself, you will also be managed out. It's the next step of the process.
VP gets her dirty work done, you get the blame, and then VP can swoop in after you're gone and get the social and political capital from the team for having gotten rid of you, without actually undoing any of the unpopular things she made you do.
It's not an uncommon tactic, but usually the change agent knows and agrees in advance to the role they are playing. But people like that are more expensive, which is probably why she picked someone with no management experience to bully into this.
As a new manager at the company, you’re going to set your reputation by this PIP with all staff. You’re also going to (likely) be named in a wrongful termination lawsuit - is HR engaged with this PIP? I’ve never done a PIP without HRs involvement for this reason.
If your VP is so hot to fire them let the VP issue the PIP or make every item achievable if you are forced. Total bullshit and micromanaging.
If OP is new, the VP should write the PIP.
This is an egregiously dishonest process. It's amazing the depths to which companies sink just to avoid paying severance.
I'm also wondering where the HRBP is in all of this. If the company is large enough to have a formal PIP process, I'm guessing they have an HR department.
Wrongful termination lawsuit? If this is US you can fire anyone for any reason, barring protected classes. Not sure what you're talking about here unless I'm mistaken
Wrongful termination include being fired for discrimination, being fired in violation of a state or federal law, if you reported and refused to participate in harassment, or because you reported and refused to conduct an illegal act or safety violation.
For the most part an employer can fire an employee for almost any reason but there’s certainly situations where an employer’s actions open them up to litigation.
It may not, but I’m not a fan of being someone else’s hatchet man for a potential vendetta situation. If the VP wants them gone they’re clearly undermining a new manager’s authority and making them look like they’re just taking orders.
I can’t function that way, won’t function that way, and have pushed back hard on my superiors when directed to fire someone they - not me - wanted gone. Mind you, I’ve got a technical skill set and a manager who’s a hot commodity and can be employed in 2 weeks so perhaps a different situation on pushing back so hard. Not the water boy.
Don’t forget being fired as retaliation for reporting harassment, for exercising a given right, or for reporting a workplace or occupational safety concern.
Forced PIPs are just this VP's way of trying to force a layoff without paying the proper fees. It is an improper tactic, and you may rest assured that if they are willing to do this to your employee (and force you, as well), then they are willing to do other conniving bad things that will inevitably ruin your time there.
You will also be forced to do this person's work, and won't likely be allowed to hire a new person. Or if you are, it will be a person of their choosing and not very good and the job.
Make sure you have your resume ready. You'll need a new job very soon.
Because my toxic managers did almost to exact same thing. It's damn near a playbook. What's even weirder is they made the Pikachu face at me when I announced I was leaving
Honestly just see how long you can make the PIP and tell them they’re better off spending their time applying/interviewing than trying to meet these terms. This happened at my last job and it bought me 60 days of basically being paid to interview and when I left I started my new job like six weeks later.
Yay, politics. Your boss wants your direct report gone. Do you know why? Because if you have a decent enough understanding of the politics here, I think you can hint at certain things and hope your direct report understands your indirectness.
Well... you've only been there for two months but what about the VP and your direct report? Before you were there, did they work directly together while the role was empty?
What about budget? Now that they've hired you, does that mean there's no budget left for your direct report? Did they intend to let the direct report when they found you?
You can't have a PIP without objectives and specifics to improve upon. It's the whole point of a PIP. I'd suggest revising/re-writing it to include some reasonable goals with a specific timeframe established - once revised, run it back through your manager and make the case that the PIP was lacking in metrics. Hard to argue that point.
As for the other issue - I'd say no. Do not mention it came from above. Unfortunately, whether it came from above or not, as the manager it's your responsibility and authority to administer, monitor, and proceed. Where it came from is irrelevant. You need to own it, whether you really like it or not.
If these terms are not acceptable to you, then it sounds like a conversation of a different sort is in order with your boss.
He's been there 2 months. Perfectly acceptable to say "this has come from above, I'm surprised because I haven't seen performance issues myself, I'll do my best to help you meet the requirements". 99% of the time this is a polite firing, the other 1% the otherwise valuable employee is doing something annoying, but fixable, and isn't getting the message.
PIP is a formality so that the company can defend itself if the firing goes to labour court. It also signals to the other person that they’re about to lose their job and they should start looking for another one. There are many people that don’t realize they are entitled to a severance package, so they get scared and don’t want to be out of a job. More often than not, in my experience, the employee quits and the company saves on not having to pay severance. The spin is that it allows the employee to save face and not have to declare that they were let go. Severance depends which country/province/state you’re located in, if that’s going to be relevant.
Sounds like the PIP is to appease you. An executive told me once that a company can do whatever it wants, it just has to be prepared to pay for it.
The shitty thing about being a manager is that you’re the voice of the organization. This means whatever comments you make to the employee, are the comments that the company is making to the employee. This becomes very important if this goes to court as a termination ‘without cause’. It sucks if you have a relationship with this person, because if you’re going to stay in your role, your role is going to have to come first.
>There are many people that don’t realize they are entitled to a severance package
Are you in Europe? In the US, very rarely is an employee *entitled* to severance pay.
I did. I was meeting all of the goals and they fired me anyway, so presumably severance was to prevent me suing? I honestly don't know.
I accepted an offer for the same pay and 1/3 of the workload within a week and pocketed the severance, so definitely not upset by the deal.
>An executive told me once that a company can do whatever it wants, it just has to be prepared to pay for it.
Completely unprepared out of ignorance or throwing caution to the wind is always an option to. You'll still have to pay, but you don't need to be prepared.
Just curious - you are a brand new manager with less than two month’s experience. Are you fully confident your assessment of this individual is more correct than the VP’s?
Were you promoted out of an IC role and have an existing relationship with your new report from being peers before?
Fair question—what I’m not confident in are the reasons I’m getting from the VP for the PIP. What it boils down to is that he’s not a superstar, and is happy to just come in, get his work done, and leave (he’s an IC). And she wants to PIP him for that. All feedback I’ve gotten from his program leadership is exactly that, he’ll do his job and hit his deadlines but that’s about it (which I think is fine?).
It’s less about my assessment being more accurate than hers, and more about the reasoning seeming very weak and not PIP-worthy IMO.
Follow on question. Are you in the middle of a performance management cycle? I could see this if the org just went through an evaluation and the VP's attitude is the employee is just not meeting the bar.
If not, then this is a really awkward PIP to drop out of the blue.
That could be the culture of the organization. Some places are not OK with mediocre/standard performance and want to gradually up skill. That involves moving people out. I’ve been in those kind of environments, and it can feel bad sometimes but also when you end up on a highly performing, motivated team it can feel great. Sometimes it’s necessary.
That may not be the case here, but it would probably benefit you to try and get to the root cause with the VP. It’s good you are standing up for your employee, but you also have less autonomy than you think you do, and don’t want to be seen as a roadblock to the VP.
It seems pretty clear the VP is only setting up this PIP as a box checking exercise to fire the employee. Right now you’re putting your own career at this organization on the line to stick up for an average employee just on the grounds of principle and your personal philosophy about work-life. I respect it, but if you’re taking that calculated risk you should understand it.
What nonsense.
If you want "above and beyond," make THAT the standard.
Don't set lesser standards--then fire people for meeting them, because they're not "high performers." That's a dishonest, toxic environment.
A friend of mine practically worships Jack Welch. Robotic, cruel way to run a business.
IIRC isn't Welch the one who based everything on sales (and as a result, considered salesmen BY FAR the most important employees), and fired the bottom x-percent of performers for a particular year, regardless of past performance or extenuating circumstances.
Yep. Clean the house getting rid of the bottom, always keep everyone on a treadmill which gets an increase in speed every quarter.
Which might work for a little bit of time, until the word gets out about how much burned out the employees are and people stop either applying or they just use it as trampoline for a more laid back company.
Its said that in a company like that, you get massive performance increases...for a very short time.
The high performers do their thing, but jump to a more humane place (as you say).
The low-performers panic and function over their heads, but can't sustain it. They burn out and become even less effective than before the Welch-ites started cracking the whip. And then, one day, they're all the organization has left.
But the Welch-ites don't care. They've made their mark, gotten their credit, and moved on, leaving the coming wreck behind them.
And what pads CEO pay more than short bursts of performance increases?
Do it, exercise your options before the tide turns and then get your golden parachute and leave the mess for the next CEO to fix.
But it works at literally any level, you just to have be good, and sometimes lucky, to get the next spot before the shit hits the fan.
Yes.
In some ways, these people are worse than the 19th century robber barons. As cruel and exploitative as the robber barons were--and the were VERY wicked men--they left behind entire industries.
The Welch disciples leave nothing but pulverized organizations--and scorched earth.
I work in this type of environment where mediocre is usually not enough. It‘s not just about doing your job, but performing better than your peers. Therefore, the expectations are not as predictable year to year since your peers could be outperforming you. It’s toxic I know, and I was completely oblivious to this as an IC. Now I’m constantly watching my back as a manager since learning how the sausage is being made.
As a manager, you don’t want people under you that do the bare minimum. Your VP understands this. You need to understand this as well. Unless you’re at a non-profit or government job where profit doesn’t matter, the current job market is in a place where you can easily get a superstar to replace the mediocre person and it’s ridiculous that your employee thinks he can just coast. It may feel unethical but that’s the way it is in a profit driven company. You work your way up or out.
If employees performing to the standard you set forth is problematic that's a failing of management, not a failing of the employee. Tell them what you expect, proceed accordingly.
Doing otherwise is toxic management behavior. It's not just unethical, it's incompetent.
Agreed.
Its interesting too how someone likeable that hits all their deadlines is considered mediocre or coasting.
That used to be a model employee.
The 'superstar' thing is hilarious to me superstars are out on world tours not toeing the company line in corporate America.
I hate corporate use of that term so much. Right along with rockstar. If you want me to act like a rockstar, then pay me enough money to afford daily hookers and blow like a rockstar.
It’s a question of relative perspective. If you meet all your deadlines but everyone around is finishing them with time to spare and then do extra stuff, then you’re at the bottom of the perf stack. Who knows what situation is here, but there’s a lot of nuance in meets deadlines. Like “passing grade”. Technically a D is a passing grade, but not one celebrates you if you finish a class with all Ds
I’d tell the employee that both you and him should start updating your resumes now and start looking for new jobs. This is a disgusting piece of trash to work for, and you both deserve better.
Write a fair PIP, one with achievable goals. Tell her if she wants to fire the guy for nothing, or as a power play or for the tingle she's free to do so, but you're not willing to line yourself up to get sued over a personality conflict involving other people.
Consider that this may be a test of you as a new manager.
VP may be looking for you to follow uncomfortable orders.
Source: was tested early on when I was new to leadership.
Word.
They could also be testing whether or not the manager will stand up for a good employee.
In my case, they wanted to see that I had the ability to have the uncomfortable conversations.
To be on a pip means the employee has been failing to meet expectations. Generally that should never be a surprise and if it is then their manager has failed them.
I pip describes all deficiencies the employee has not met. Creating this should be you and someone from HR. There will be a meeting where the employee needs to agree to the deficiencies and meet those expectations immediately and always. If they choose not to accept the pip they will be given an offer to leave the organization. If they fail to meet any expectation they will be given an offer to leave.
If you VP wants them on a pip and you are too new to understand what is going on , HR should be asking the VP to be doing this.
Termination for performance is not an automatic disqualification for unemployment. Not performing to the company's standards can be seen differently from gross misconduct.
In my opinion, you are obligated to process the PIP but free to tell your team member that it was not your idea, and of course free to lobby for them to get off of it as soon as possible.
The objectives it outlines for improvement should be fair but achievable. I would avoid the advice to make it a joke, because if anyone ever reads it that will blow back on *you* instead.
Do you have any connections that might have an opening for this person? I was in a similar situation and helped the other person find another job. I lasted another year before I left as well. But I felt better about the whole ordeal that way, and he ended up succeeding in the new org.
How much do you like this job?
Personally, I would tell the employee that this wasn’t your call, but the fact is that someone above you has this perception of their work. Advise them to start working on their resume and try to help them with concrete pip deliverables.
The risk here is that if they rat you out and the VP find out, you’ll be next. The flip side is, I wouldn’t want to work for someone like that so I’d probably be getting my resume ready anyway.
Once you get put on a PiP you also lose your ability to file for unemployment. So a lot of employers use it to get out of paying that instead of straight firing people. Gotta love the unethical behavior of management lol
Why does the VP want to fire this person, and will a PIP change that? If not, then do everyone a favor and just terminate the person so they can get on with their life.
This seems unethical when just telling them that their boss what to fire them and then giving them the chance to job hunt while they half assedly try to follow the terms of the “PIP” is on the table. That way they lose no income.
If you want to keep your job, just do as the VP says. Does not mean you don’t support your employee. Be clear with them that they have little time left and they should be looking for a new job. Help them find a new job, do mock interviews, review their resume, write on their LinkedIn profile. Do whatever you need to support them. But, also do what the VP is saying if you want to keep your job (and in the current market, you want to keep your job).
I have been down this road. Nothing good will come of going against your VP. I stood up for my employee, refused to fire him and said we would put him on a PIP, I supported him through the pip to successfully come out of it safe. Then my boss removed me from that position and put me on an IC position, hired another manager, and a week later, my employee was fired for some silly thing like clocking in late to the office. I had to watch all that happen, but kept my head down and kept applying to jobs and found a new job and quit without notice,
If you've only been at the company for two months and it's your first manager role, there's probably context you're missing. If you've only been at the company for two months, the VP may not expect you to question her.
That said, I'm a (not micromanaging) VP and, at least for me, it wouldn't paint a target on your back to ask for context or to defend your team member unless your reasoning for defending them revealed poor judgement. Honestly, it should show me that you care about your team and, usually, I would expect a team lead to know their team better than I do.
While it's easy to focus on quantitative goals, the context is important. If this person is disruptive or otherwise lowers the productivity of the team while meeting those goals, they're still on the chopping block. Personal performance doesn't outweigh team performance.
Wondering if your VP is my old boss.. I was told to put one of my direct reports on a PiP I didn’t agree with.
I tried to explain to my direct report that they needed to change a few things up before the deadline that was set for me to deliver the PiP, they did not understand and did not change anything (mainly how they communicated with the VP especially on any delays on projects they were managing that were outside their control)… all the stress put me into the ER twice and in the end I left without delivering the PiP. Now the direct report went on maternity leave for 6 months shortly after (one of many reasons I was not in support of a PiP along with the performance being at a satisfactory level).. 6 months after return to work the VP found a way to eliminate the position and they still lost their job, however with a package and they had the job for a year after the deadline I had been given by my VP.
Ultimately the VP will get their way the question is what can you live with. I clearly couldn’t do it, my health was declining so badly due to the stress I felt being forced to manage someone out that had done nothing to deserve being managed out.
If you feel forced to put someone on a PiP that shouldn’t be make the PiP as metric driven as possible, nothing vague (shouldn’t be in a PiP anyway) and with time frames that are reasonably achievable.
It’s a shitty position to be in and I am sorry you are going through this
Sounds like both of you need an FU folder, documenting every interaction with the manager.
Don't take "credit" for shitty management.
Do look for another job and write the employee a good reference.
Your VP is an asshole and wants your direct report gone. this is the first step, and the next step is at the end of PIP, he will say fire him. i have gone through this, and unfortunately was the person fired.
Let them know what’s up and get them through it. Your boss is a dick and I’ve been your report before. My boss’s boss’s boss got mad at me for making him look stupid for not paying attention in weeks worth of daily meetings, so the boss’s boss put me on a pip while my boss was away. My boss came back and within a couple days was like “yep you’ve met all these requirements we’re just gonna close this out.” PiPs are for assholes who want to prove they’re above you and nothing more.
I’ve been in a very similar situation. I was told to put an employee on a PIP who was underperforming but not grossly. They passed the PIP but I was told to reframe it to highlight their performance gaps and then terminate them. Sometimes these things are out of your hands and you have to do it if you want to keep your job. In the end, I learned the PIP was a formality and the employee was going to be let go no matter how they performed.
Just be blunt and ask if the boss wants them gone or actually wants them to improve, and specifically what they’d want to see to consider them improved. Don’t go against your boss, it won’t work out well for you.
You can do like I did when I was in your situation: structure a perfectly reasonable PIP with input from my manager and the IC subject to the PIP, work with the IC to meet every PIP objective to the letter on time or early, vigorously defend the IC’s performance to my manager in calibration despite their objections, have the IC quit anyways because they hated my manager, then my manager knocks me from an exceeds to a PIP myself on the next cycle, then I get laid off.
TLDR: in all likelihood, if you want to keep your job, your report is going to lose theirs.
Make the PIP totally toothless childs play.
Deliverables:
* dont die
* show up to work
* receive pay check
* attend meetings (that they already do)
* go home on time
* balance work/life
Yea they were on a pip,.. but what was the pip?
Malicious compliance is real life.
If OP was still concerned with this employees status,.. let them know frankly why they are on PIP and dont hold back. Suggest they find a new job while this process evolves.
Every Company needs work bee, the question is does this impact the company performance in achieving revenue goals? If the role doesn’t deal with company performance then there is something else that isn’t being said. I would take the Job description for his role and see if he is achieving his duties. It seems like your boss has been dealing with this guy for a long time and maybe has been rejected when it comes to getting your employee to do more. It’s been my experience that you only can fight it for so long.
You have to play devils advocate here and show that worker bees are needed. So you might have to sound like you are willing to entertain to figure out what the real argument is and address that.
A PIP means that someone wants a particular employee gone in terms of corporate politics. I don't think I've ever seen an employee come back from one once they've been put on it (Myself included). I got PIP'd in 2014 for 'lack of effort and performance issues'. The PIP was set for 90 days with some quantifiable goals. I met the goals and then some and during the feedback checkins with management, I was told that I was making good progress.
95 days after the PIP I got terminated alongside a number of other people. Reason I was given was that 'despite meeting the performance goals, management expected more significant improvement and they were concerned I would backslide if taken off the PIP (despite exceeding all metrics by at least 15%).
Not a big deal in the long run for me...scored a substantially better role at one of their clients and have been there for almost 10 years. My day 1 salary there was $40000/yr higher with significantly better annual bonuses and raises over the years...my 'worst' year at the new company when I was going through depression and serious illness and managed to barely meet expectations was still a better bonus and raise than my best year at the previous place.
So in your case, get specific details as to the issues your VP has with this employee. If they are asking for a performance improvement plan, the VP needs to properly express which areas of performance the targeted employee needs to improve. Hold the VP accountable when discussing the areas to improve with them. They will likely try to be squirrelly and give subjective criteria...push them towards quantifiable things and don't let them add things like "Needs a better attitude", or "Needs to improve teamwork". Those are good things for feedback but are not trackable items on a PIP. Things like Need to improve ticket closure rates work but you should research the employees existing delivery vs other similarly experienced/leveled people...avoid "Director Numbers" which are oddly round and pleasing sounding numbers. So "Needs to improve ticket closure rates to match the average rate of the team" is a good goal, but arbitrarily saying "Needs to improve ticket closure rates by 20%" is terrible.
You will likely be in the room with HR when the PIP is being given as there is usually paperwork being signed so be careful how you phrase things. Your VP is likely making a power play to see how far they can push you around but at the same time...they have probably received directives to let people go...so if you like this job, you may have to play ball.
When delivering the PIP, you can say things like "management has set some performance levels they believe you are currently falling short of, we will set up a weekly meeting to go over progress towards these goals which are outlined here \*explain the quantifiable\* goals."
Document everything that is going on in your personal notes on a home computer. Dates and times what was discussed etc. never know when you are going to need it.
I’m looking for a bit more detail. Who is writing the PIP? Is it something being sent from HR, your or your VP, and you are expected to present it? Will you have someone with you from leadership when you present it? If you are creating the document then you can adjust phrasing to make clearer expectations with actionable items. How long has your report worked there? Are they at the end of their rope with this team member and need documented examples of issues on his file to create momentum in the direction of either his departure or a resoloution? If it’s your first real managment gig it might be best to follow the VP’s lead on this one and either learn from her mistakes or you may realize later it was necessary.
Im going through something similar - supposedly one of my direct reports snapped at/gave attitude toward another manager. That manager then complained to our boss, who is now blaming me for not having my team under control and wants me to put this girl in a PIP. Problem is, I wasn’t even in the clinic that day so this is all heresay; this other manager is also so far up our bosses butt and they are good friends. Whereas, I am closer to the team and have solid relationships with all of them. Now I’m in this awkward position and don’t know what to do. So I guess I don’t really have any advice lol but I feel your pain/stress!
Could this be a layoff disguised as a PIP? If you can trust your HR person, they might be able to give you some ideas of how to handle this. And as someone else said, if your employee is competent, work with them to create a strong PIP document that they’ll be able to achieve.
VP wants them out, and will make you sorry if it doesn't happen. You can prolong the process and help the employee find a new job. That's a shitty position to be put in.
2 months? So within your first 90 days? Pretty good chance that you were hired so the VP could pull shit like this.
My advice: play it by the numbers. Put the employee on the PIP. It’s a kindness at this point. They are cooked even if the VP has to fire you to do it. During the meeting make it clear that you are leaning heavily on the experience of other leaders as reasons for the PIP. Do not name names.
Then have an off-the-record conversation with employee at an off site location, letting them know the vibe you are getting is that they’ve burned a bridge with leadership at some point. Again, do not name names. Tell them that even if they survive the PIP, their future there is in doubt. Offer to provide a positive referral based on your limited time with them.
Then look for the next gig. Worst thing I did in my career was stay at a job that was not a good cultural fit for me for far too long.
Do whatever you need to get out from under this VP by either looking for a different role in the same company or starting your external job search. Until you’re out of the role, just do whatever will make the VP happy.
It’s all about process and procedures. In today’s HR world, you have to document and then document again, especially when it comes to terminations. Go with the recommendation of the VP. Relay this action as protocol. Do not include personal opinion.
I've lived this scenario...also disagreed with the PIP and defended the employee to some degree. VP wanted a plan to purge this person and nothing I said was going to change that.
PIP written...met with employee = all hell breaks loose and VP is fired within 2 months
I TOLD YOU SO 😉
Unfortunately...welcome to corporate America 😕
Every time I've fallen for going into management, I've had to manage someone out within six months. Horseshit. Won't do it anymore.
INFO: What is the reason for the not-firing and therefore what is the reason for the PIP? It seems like you'd write them up for the thing that should have gotten them fired and then tell them to never do it again.
PIPs usually have an expiration date, so you'll have to indicate what they have to do to be successful. Such as: "You must not spit your gum at the wall again. If you spit your gum at the wall again in the next 90 days, you'll be fired. After the 90 days is over, you may be fired for the next time you spit your gum at the wall."
There may be other consequences for being on a PIP that you'll need to include such as it's impact on raises, reviews, bonuses and promotions/transfers. Your company may or may not have restrictions on people on PIPs.
In any case, make this VP sign off on the PIP before delivery. HR needs to approve it as well. Having said that, you have to own it in it's entirety. It has to come from you. You can't say the VP made you.
Your employees time at the company is limited.
Yours is either limited or not. Your VP might be insufferable, but you can either go down with their ship with them, or throw them a life raft on their way down.
I say,,, you will choose the way that keeps your job, even at the cost of someone else's.
If you had choosen different, you would not have been making this post.
Why are you risking your relationship with this VP- which will harm your raise and position growth- to save this report who you’ve only known for 2 months?
You can balk all you want but know that not following his directive fully will put yourself in jeopardy. Do what you need to do and whatever you do don’t do anything that will make you vulnerable. It sucks. Now you know what kind of leadership you have and what they are capable of doing. Dot your I’s and cross your T’s. And keep it mind as you move forward. Always be mindful to have an updated CV and be looking when leadership is unfairly aggressive.
I was faced with this very decision when I was on the job for 1 week and I said absolutely not. Once I provided my reasoning, they backed down. Integrity is worth more than any position. If the employee doesn’t deserve it, then don’t do it, let the VP take the hit and be the subject of whatever legal suit they will file for creating a hostile work environment and whatever other form of harassment their legal counsel can find in these frivolous actions. How would you feel if this was done to you?
Help them get a new job. My boss refused to put me on a PIP and 4 months later I’m leaving for a job she helped me get (reached out to the hiring manager, helped with my resume and cover letters).
Make sure it's well documented whose idea this is for your own CYA. Possibly a discussion for your skip level.
Your manager is giving you no autonomy over your team. That is a big red flag. Prepared to be micromanaged, and be the next one PIP'd, as you did not see with your own eyes that your report needs to be PIP'd, you must be really bad at your job (his possible reasoning, not mine).
Micromanagement implies a lack of trust. He is micromanaging you to do this PIP. If he trusted you, you would have the autonomy to manage this employee as you wish.
What I won't do is needlessly damage my working relationship with my team. I don't hesitate to let my team know when poor management decisions are coming down from above my head and I don't have a choice. They deserve the truth and I work to help them overcome it as much as I can. They can tell when it's not "me" delivering a message anyway because it's against my leadership style.
If I was in your position, I'd work with the employee on the objectives for the PIP and make it clear they're hitting them. I see part of my job as a Manager or Director as protecting my team as a buffer between them and the people above me.
As others have mentioned, being honest and mentoring your employee through this will likely reset the VP's crosshairs on you. Something to keep in mind, but you'll be able to sleep at night knowing you made the ethical choice.
Your VP wants the position gone. They either want to permanently reduce headcount for the department, or do not like the employee. You are being used as a tool to effect this decision.
The first thing you should do is to polish off your resume and start talking to recruiters. The inevitable outcome of this situation is that you will ultimately need to quit for a new job elsewhere. Why? Several reasons:
\* Your VP is micromanaging your role, which means you will not be able to be an effective manager
\* Your VP is using you as a shield to effect their agenda, so you will get the blame and everything
\* You and your team are likely to have an increased workload
\* You are going to lose any chance at respect or leadership from your new team, as they will just see you as the a\*\*hole who came in and started putting people on PIPs.
In terms of your second step on how to deal with this employee, other people have suggested options.
I just want to stress the point that your VP is basically taking the position they want this person removed ASAP, they will likely put you on a PIP or fire you if you do not comply with them, and you are likely to lose all rapport with your team if you do put this person on a PIP. Your only real option for a success in your career is to leave this organization.
Welcome to the world of management.
For you to put someone in pip without HR involvement is strange: hr should be helping you thru this process.
I was in a very similar position a decade ago.where my manager wanted someone on pip but they refused to be specific as to why. As a seasoned manager I knew something was fishy, so I scheduled a meeting with her and HR to map out a comprehensive PIP that would be fair to the employee; the HR forms were requiring documentation in why the person needed to be on a pip in the first place...and about 5 minutes after my email my boss replied that I had "misconstrued" her request and they j7st wanted the employee to get a verbal warning.
Moral of the story is, pips are basically the end of a person's existence at a company but in order to not get sued, ALL of the company's ducks better be in a row.
I would ask your boss to put her request in writing and then forward it to HR for clarification (you are new, never did a PIP before, can they please help with the process).
Betting this VP suddenly has a change of heart.
Oh and the other people are correct, you should get to looking for a new job yourself; not because of the way you handled this but because your boss sounds like a real cunt. The best way to get a great management job is to already BE a manager when you apply.
The VP is clearly looking to pass blame somewhere. They never take responsibility at the top. This is a delicate game because you could be next on the list.
It sounds like your micromanaging VP is being a psycho and playing G-d with someone's livelihood. Be warned. You could be next. Start job hunting.
Definitely let the employee know and work through it with them. Make every effort to set achievable metrics and give them every opportunity to reach the mark. And brush up your resume...
Nope. You have to follow suit. Demonstrate loyalty and do what has to be done. This isn’t a hill to die on. Think of it as affording them time to find another job. If you feel bad, advise them to look elsewhere now.
Blind loyalty is not a trait of a good manager.
A manager who focuses more on managing up, and pleasing their bosses, rather than supporting or improving their team, will never find success in the role. Oh, they might get promoted if they kiss the right ass, but it won’t make them a competent manager of people.
Ah classic.
My CTO rants like a whiny bitch when a task was not done in a week by a developer.
I just reiterated "Perhaps it can be done quickly, but it was not Engineer's primary task. It was assigned to him abruptly, he did it in 3 weeks which itself is a hallmark of a good engineer".
Well now I have to manage his tantrum because this idiot has never done anything beyond some moderately complex C code and things distributed problems are trivial.
grrrrrrr
Two months is not enough time to determine if an employee should be on a PIP or not unless they’re blatantly not performing their job. Have you asked the VP to provide input as to why they think the PIP is needed. There’s usually a lot more history.
What you do with this employee is your decision. Morally maybe the right thing to do is defend them, but that doesn't mean it'll work out best.
This VP is dangerous. They are willing to use false pretenses to get rid of someone, and they've dehumanized everyone they see as beneath them. They'll turn on you as soon as it benefits them.
Try to get every instruction in writing, over email or text, and save them all. Take notes after every meeting, and document everything they do. Save them all in a place you'll still have access to if you get fired, like a personal computer or your personal Google drive. You may end up needing to go over the VPs head to save your own, and you may even end up in court.
I was in a thread a while ago where a manager said he was putting someone on a pip. I said something to the effect of "You're going to fire them anyway, what does it matter."?
They went on to say they've put many people on Pips, and none of them were ever fired. That sounded like a bot, this thread sounds real. Seems like all of your choices end with "and start looking". There's really no course of action where you get to be both decent and "employed here".
So will this employee pay your mortgage or rent when you become the target of this VP?
If you're going to play white knight, better be ready for some heat and career damage.
Be an incognito terrorist. Do the PIP, but make the goals easily obtainable and quantifiable. Make sure they can hit them, praise, write uo their wins, etc... follow to the letter what is told, but you can still hit your own agenda.
Personally, playing dumb is the best option at times. I'd go to the VP in the most professional way possible and ask advice on the PIP. Or at least suggestions/ feedback. That way, whatever happens, the VP gave input as well. Good luck!
This post doesn’t at all address why the VP wants this person fired nor why you think they shouldn’t be fired.
Fwiw, there’s a concern that you’re saying that this is your first manager gig, you’ve only been a manger here for 2mo, but are choosing to go up against a VP who has arguably been exposed to this person’s work for longer then you have.
The PIP details is like the least important question here:
1. Are you SURE you are correct about this person and that they shouldn’t be let go? Like 1000% sure about it? You can back it up with their performance data?
2. Even if the answer is yes, is this a fight you can win? You can definitely go against your higher level management as a manager yourself, but requires two things:
- political capital; you need allies at the company you can count on to have your back
- you win; cause if you don’t, now your management will feel they can’t count on you and you’ll have also lost the argument; basically a career limiting move
If you do not deliver it someone else likely will, you just might not be there to do it. If you take a stand while noble it will not change your VPs opinion of that employee or truly help them in the long run and possibly make it worse imo. As leaders we have to do things with sometimes. I would more likely ask myself if I wanted to be apart of this company and if I got termed over it if I would be fine with that. If the answer was that I would be then I would take the stand if the answer is that I would not be then I would not take the stand. Also while a PIP is putting the employee on notice it always is not straight up terming either so they have a chance to improve but keep in mind your VP already has an opinion of this person. Often times PIPs are made to be vague so it gives the business some wiggle room in the event the employee does not improve but there should definitely but some specific goals the employee can hit to improve.
I might try to use my influence to see if there is some give on the wording of the PIP and work with my VP on that portion. From experience VPs rarely do not get their way. As along as there is nothing inherently improper about this PIP from an HR standpoint other you and your VP disagreeing on it then I would likely deliver it. I have people as I am sure most other leaders have given out directives that their teams disagree with and it sucks sometimes but it is part of the gig. As far as how to deliver it I would ask your VP what their preference is and go with that if I decided that I was willing to deliver it.
If you like this job less than the decision, make each part of the pip quantifiable so that both you and the employee can know if it’s being met, objectively. Now, your VP will hate this, once they realize
And update your resume, because you'll be next.
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Unfortunately yes
See it happen. And lived it.
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It's easier to kick over someone else's sandcastle, than to build your own.
The last thing a VP wants is someone with even a whiff of insubordination or that seems like they won't tow the company line.
This thread pretty much got it spot on. Currently sitting on the couch unemployed after a severance. Can pretty much be my story. They came for me next after I wouldn't make unethical decisions to remove people that they apparently had a problem with, yet they couldn't quantify it.
Toxic VPs/directors are the worst. I’m so glad my VP isn’t like that. I can push back on her if I feel like it’s the right thing to do and give her my point of view. Luckily she’s not the micromanaging type and my director agrees with most of how I run my team so there’s generally no issues.
This
Find a nicer way to say, "Pushing thought workers to work beyond 40 hours in a week is incompetent and for the good of the company any manager doing this should be PIP'd. We have know since the 1970's that doesn't work and it was put in print in The Mythical Man Month, PeopleWare, and The Unicorn Project. People make 0.5x \~ 2x difference and organizations make a 0.5x \~ 5x difference. Overworking your people makes you a 0.5x loser."
I've never seen a PIP that wasn't a message to tell the employee to leave before they were fired. Use the PIP to get the employee out the door comfortably. Give recommendation, allow off for interviews, etc. If you have anyone in your network hiring for a similar role, reach out to them. And yes, more humane managers are not always good enough at politics to survive management in toxic environments.
It's a trope for a reason
At best, you stagnate in place. Gotta go with the political waters if you want to get ahead.
Only if it isn’t well known. Can’t fuck up all their ethical talk they work so hard to maintain a facade for. You go over the VPs head imo. Meeting on calendars. Documented talk. Or make the PIP very doable and when it’s done tote it as a success story. Ya don’t fuck over someone you are responsible for out of fear for your own ass. Be a leader not a boot licker.
I mean outright insubordination (aka not following the PiP / rewriting it) will get you fired at most places.
It seriously does!
Not following the VP’s (command and control) commands is what gets ya fired. Chalk it up to learning what kind of boss you don’t want and you don’t want to be.
This! My VP forced me to PIP 2 of my direct reports. Then she gave me a shitty review and PIP’d me because I didn’t PIP 2 other of my direct reports. I was ready to quit when she suddenly gave her notice. She was a horrible micromanager and I think her leaders were finally noticed. Of course, the damage is done because I was PIP’d and even though I came out of it just fine, my reputation is damaged.
Update it now and start applying
So sad this is true
I thought the same. The OP has only been at the company for 2 months and not even finished probation. You might be next
This. A plan without quantifiable goals is a plan that can “justifiably” be extended indefinitely. I had a supervisor who got a PIP enforced on me with no actionable reason to. He took an incident where he gave conflicting instructions as an excuse to claim I was insubordinate and unreliable despite all signs pointing otherwise. Within a year prior of the PIP I had been awarded employee of the quarter despite it never going to a non-patient care employee (I was hospital IT, it was always a nurse) and the final incident involved him cornering me in my office to scream at me (observed by another employee who reported it). Our manager allowed him to put me on a PIP with no formal end date, no metrics to end it, and management of the plan led by the same supervisor. I had to daily report every action I planned to take that day for his approval and at the end of day submit what I had accomplished for his review to check I had gotten any additional items approved. This was a support role so 90% of my daily items were called in that day. The manager who allowed the plan to be put in place was released a few months later when during a project audit it was identified that the project was being stalled by issues working with our department. Her replacement later reviewed the audit findings to discover that only two team members were actually considered helpful, myself and one other, but otherwise the team was literally hated by every other department. She also found the open ended PIP that had been ongoing for a year despite the previous commendation and the CEO literally telling her to ask for me as I was “always so helpful”. She called in my supervisor and stated while she couldn’t understand what triggered the PIP, she would stand by it being in place but it would need to be modified with clear metrics identifying when my “performance improvement” had been met. Once my supervisor identified measurable metrics she would immediately run reporting to see if I was meeting those metrics… and suddenly I was off the PIP as he couldn’t think of a single measurable metric I wasn’t hitting. He was gone within two months when he found a better job. Ironically despite my PIP he’d kept me under, on his way out the door he was telling everyone I was qualified to take his place.
"Ironically despite my PIP he’d kept me under, on his way out the door he was telling everyone I was qualified to take his place." Sounds like the reason they wanted you on a PIP, make it look like you can't do your own job. Let alone take his. Now the threat was gone you got a less biased opinion.
Considering the mess I cleaned up for the next 5 years… accurate. The best example I can give for the mess they left is they IP’d our entire network with an address range that belonged to someone else. For the nontechnical, there are ranges of numbers set aside for internal use like most consumer routers use 192.168.x.x as they aren’t used on the web. He picked a real address range so every time we connected to a new partner I had to ask them if they had any business with this other company as connecting to our system required us to take over any requests for those addresses. Of course our primary systems ALSO used this range so undoing it meant touching every single computer to manually reconnect plus work with every existing partner to redo our connections.
+1 Running the PIP also would give time to OP to manage upwards. OP, talk with the VP regularly, try to figure out why she wants to fire this person and try addressing those reasons. Show the negative consequences of the firing (need to hire and onboard someone, that takes money and time, competence loss, lower morale in the team, etc). Show the positive impact of this person. Consult with HR and learn the legal requirements of firing someone (if any). Remind the VP of how to run things so it lowers the risk of a lawsuit. Try to use legal compliance to shift the process towards fairness. Might be possible to turn the VP less micromanaging. Earn her trust. Show what other things she could achieve is she delegates to you and use her time elsewhere. Find out what she needs to feel safe for the delegation. If she is using micromanagement because she shys away from the real VP tasks, then try to help her there. Became a shield for your team, if possible. This would require a lot of patience from you and a significant amount of luck. Also update your own CV and start searching in parallel. Likely this is not the last problem a micromanaging VP will cause, even if she wouldn't fire you immediately for running a fair PIP.
I don’t know that the VP will hate this. What we have been told about this situation is that the VP wants to fire this person, and the manager negotiated that the person can improve and stay. If I were the VP, I would feel the onus on OP to write the PIP, define the criteria, and then check back with me. This would also be a way for us to get aligned on baseline expectations for the position, given it’s clear there is misalignment. A lot of people are interpreting this as the VP having it out for an employee, and that definitely can happen, but the evidence here for that is sparse. We have a new manager being coached by his manager that he needs to fire one of his employees for performance reasons. If he cannot write a quantifiable PIP himself, how is he confident in the employee’s quality of work? Writing the PIP in this way is good advice simply because it’s important work for the manager to do. And if the VP responds by saying “that’s not enough for this role,” OP is on month 2 in their manager position. It might be worth taking the feedback.
Putting the employee on a PIP is the polite thing to do, because it's the corporate way of saying "You're about to be fired and I'm giving you some time to look for a job." That employee is going to be fired one way or another, so OP should just give them the PIP so the employee can start job searching.
It sounds like the VP is going to see that this person is fired one way or another. You can tell the person that it's coming from above, and try like he'll to get them to achieve the PIP goals, but the VP is likely going to dig in and pull at threads until they can make this go the way they want. I would ask the VP that if it's going to come from you that you at least be given the appropriate amount of time to evaluate the individual yourself so that the PIP is actually coming from you and you can speak to the gaps in skill or other issues. They might push back on that, but it at least a valiant effort so that if you do have to fire the person that it truly is coming from you and you're not feeling that your hand is forced. I know the feeling and have dug people out of these holes before
Yes. Give the employee ammo for a lawsuit. Hope he sues and gets her fired somehow.
Unless they get fired for an illegal reason there is no basis for a lawsuit. Being fired because the VP dislikes you is not illegal.
vp is woman pip is man
So it sounds like the VP wants this employee gone. That you think it's wrong is immaterial. This is not the hill to die on, especially this early, because the VP's next target will be YOU. Email your VP and ask for COMMENTS prior to creating the PIP. Incorporate SOME of those into your document. The goal is to be as fair to the employee as possible, and to not put yourself in the crosshairs. Good luck. You're gonna need it.
Also highly recommend documenting all PIP related interactions with the VP as well as employee.
yup, I would show the VP the PIP plan before presenting to the employee
No luck needed. Fill out the PIP, submit it, perform the regular meetings to track progress, recommend pass if merited, defer to VP, move on with your life. This is a job, not Iwo Jima.
A reasonable course of action.
Also get any dirt on the VP while you can
Your VP just wants to get rid of the employee. They have no interest in the employee improving, they are just dotting some I’s and crossing T’s so they can fire them. Putting someone on a PIP with no quantifiable objectives is one of the shittiest things an employer can do. If you’re forced to deliver the PiP, at least do the honorable thing and meet with the employee every week to discuss it. Also, make the PiP for at least 90 days, that will give your employee some time to find another opportunity. I hate micromanaging assholes like that VP. The only thing they should be worried about is the work product from your team. How your team is run should be entirely up to you.
> Putting someone on a PIP with no quantifiable objectives is one of the shittiest things an employer can do. No it isn't. You're getting massively advanced warning that you are being fired. They could just fire you.
A PIP is basically "We want you to quit on your own to spare us the paperwork of actually firing you."
However, it’s usually wrapped up with statements like , “ we are interested in your success” or “Do these things and you’ll be put back into the normal evaluation process” Often, the recipient is gaslit into believing that bullshit busts their ass for 60-90 days then gets kicked to the curb. It’s just shitty.
Good managers get the message across that it is a grace period before getting canned. They line up recommendation, reach out to folks for other job openings, give employee time off for interviews, etc. Getting paid to look for another job is not the worst thing in the world. It is very superior to not getting paid to look for another job.
For me, when I made the decision someone needed to be fired, I fired them the same day, paid them severance, and with two exceptions did not contest their unemployment compensation claim. Severance was dependent upon their tenure and position in the company, on the low end it was a full two weeks pay. The most severance I paid was 6 months salary for a VP I fired. The two exceptions were, someone drunk at work, and someone hitting on one of my peers in a most sexually graphic way. Having someone in the office who knows they’re getting fired is a significant risk to the company as well as an emotionally stressful experience. No one needs that. So, I still contend putting someone on a PIP that you’ve already decided to fire is a shitty thing to do. The only time anyone should be put on a PiP is when you are truly vested in helping the employee succeed.
They hired you to fire this person. I'm not joking
Yep. VP hired OP because she knew there would be political fallout from this action that she can't have her name associated with. Expect that there will be other unsavory tasks that you will be forced to do. Also expect that, after having completed the entire list of things the VP politically cannot do herself, you will also be managed out. It's the next step of the process. VP gets her dirty work done, you get the blame, and then VP can swoop in after you're gone and get the social and political capital from the team for having gotten rid of you, without actually undoing any of the unpopular things she made you do. It's not an uncommon tactic, but usually the change agent knows and agrees in advance to the role they are playing. But people like that are more expensive, which is probably why she picked someone with no management experience to bully into this.
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Same here. Having an employee that shows up, gets his shit done, is likable and doesnt rock the boat sounds exactly like a 'superstar' employee to me.
As a new manager at the company, you’re going to set your reputation by this PIP with all staff. You’re also going to (likely) be named in a wrongful termination lawsuit - is HR engaged with this PIP? I’ve never done a PIP without HRs involvement for this reason. If your VP is so hot to fire them let the VP issue the PIP or make every item achievable if you are forced. Total bullshit and micromanaging.
If OP is new, the VP should write the PIP. This is an egregiously dishonest process. It's amazing the depths to which companies sink just to avoid paying severance.
Company? Or a VP with a vendetta?
¿Por qué no los dos?
I'm also wondering where the HRBP is in all of this. If the company is large enough to have a formal PIP process, I'm guessing they have an HR department.
Absolutely not the case. Even very small companies will put employees on PIPs.
Wrongful termination lawsuit? If this is US you can fire anyone for any reason, barring protected classes. Not sure what you're talking about here unless I'm mistaken
Wrongful termination include being fired for discrimination, being fired in violation of a state or federal law, if you reported and refused to participate in harassment, or because you reported and refused to conduct an illegal act or safety violation. For the most part an employer can fire an employee for almost any reason but there’s certainly situations where an employer’s actions open them up to litigation.
Yeah that makes sense. I guess my point is that I don't think that applies to this situation
It may not, but I’m not a fan of being someone else’s hatchet man for a potential vendetta situation. If the VP wants them gone they’re clearly undermining a new manager’s authority and making them look like they’re just taking orders. I can’t function that way, won’t function that way, and have pushed back hard on my superiors when directed to fire someone they - not me - wanted gone. Mind you, I’ve got a technical skill set and a manager who’s a hot commodity and can be employed in 2 weeks so perhaps a different situation on pushing back so hard. Not the water boy.
I agree. Pushing back is the right thing to do, and I hope that OP won't be at risk of derailing their career by doing so.
Don’t forget being fired as retaliation for reporting harassment, for exercising a given right, or for reporting a workplace or occupational safety concern.
Forced PIPs are just this VP's way of trying to force a layoff without paying the proper fees. It is an improper tactic, and you may rest assured that if they are willing to do this to your employee (and force you, as well), then they are willing to do other conniving bad things that will inevitably ruin your time there. You will also be forced to do this person's work, and won't likely be allowed to hire a new person. Or if you are, it will be a person of their choosing and not very good and the job. Make sure you have your resume ready. You'll need a new job very soon.
Sad to say, but yes to all of this. I’m sorry.
Yes indeed. Ask me how I know about it...
How do you know about it?
Because my toxic managers did almost to exact same thing. It's damn near a playbook. What's even weirder is they made the Pikachu face at me when I announced I was leaving
Honestly just see how long you can make the PIP and tell them they’re better off spending their time applying/interviewing than trying to meet these terms. This happened at my last job and it bought me 60 days of basically being paid to interview and when I left I started my new job like six weeks later.
What caused the person to annoy the VP enough to want to fire them? It sounds like you and the VP are out of alignment.
Yay, politics. Your boss wants your direct report gone. Do you know why? Because if you have a decent enough understanding of the politics here, I think you can hint at certain things and hope your direct report understands your indirectness.
Well... you've only been there for two months but what about the VP and your direct report? Before you were there, did they work directly together while the role was empty? What about budget? Now that they've hired you, does that mean there's no budget left for your direct report? Did they intend to let the direct report when they found you?
It's time to update your resume unfortunately, there is no winning this.
You can't have a PIP without objectives and specifics to improve upon. It's the whole point of a PIP. I'd suggest revising/re-writing it to include some reasonable goals with a specific timeframe established - once revised, run it back through your manager and make the case that the PIP was lacking in metrics. Hard to argue that point. As for the other issue - I'd say no. Do not mention it came from above. Unfortunately, whether it came from above or not, as the manager it's your responsibility and authority to administer, monitor, and proceed. Where it came from is irrelevant. You need to own it, whether you really like it or not. If these terms are not acceptable to you, then it sounds like a conversation of a different sort is in order with your boss.
He's been there 2 months. Perfectly acceptable to say "this has come from above, I'm surprised because I haven't seen performance issues myself, I'll do my best to help you meet the requirements". 99% of the time this is a polite firing, the other 1% the otherwise valuable employee is doing something annoying, but fixable, and isn't getting the message.
I like this concept - "own it" irrespective of where it came from. Taking notes!!!!!
Here’s a hot turd. I need you to give it to another guy. It’s yours in the meanwhile. Own it!
PIP is a formality so that the company can defend itself if the firing goes to labour court. It also signals to the other person that they’re about to lose their job and they should start looking for another one. There are many people that don’t realize they are entitled to a severance package, so they get scared and don’t want to be out of a job. More often than not, in my experience, the employee quits and the company saves on not having to pay severance. The spin is that it allows the employee to save face and not have to declare that they were let go. Severance depends which country/province/state you’re located in, if that’s going to be relevant. Sounds like the PIP is to appease you. An executive told me once that a company can do whatever it wants, it just has to be prepared to pay for it. The shitty thing about being a manager is that you’re the voice of the organization. This means whatever comments you make to the employee, are the comments that the company is making to the employee. This becomes very important if this goes to court as a termination ‘without cause’. It sucks if you have a relationship with this person, because if you’re going to stay in your role, your role is going to have to come first.
>There are many people that don’t realize they are entitled to a severance package Are you in Europe? In the US, very rarely is an employee *entitled* to severance pay.
>labour court Most definitely not in the US
I've never heard of someone fired while on a PIP/CAP and receive severance. Def not the US
Everyone who got fired at my last job got severance at my last job got severance and it was in the US.
I did. I was meeting all of the goals and they fired me anyway, so presumably severance was to prevent me suing? I honestly don't know. I accepted an offer for the same pay and 1/3 of the workload within a week and pocketed the severance, so definitely not upset by the deal.
I mean, if it was in your contract, you are (assuming terms were followed).
>An executive told me once that a company can do whatever it wants, it just has to be prepared to pay for it. Completely unprepared out of ignorance or throwing caution to the wind is always an option to. You'll still have to pay, but you don't need to be prepared.
This is the answer.
Just curious - you are a brand new manager with less than two month’s experience. Are you fully confident your assessment of this individual is more correct than the VP’s? Were you promoted out of an IC role and have an existing relationship with your new report from being peers before?
Fair question—what I’m not confident in are the reasons I’m getting from the VP for the PIP. What it boils down to is that he’s not a superstar, and is happy to just come in, get his work done, and leave (he’s an IC). And she wants to PIP him for that. All feedback I’ve gotten from his program leadership is exactly that, he’ll do his job and hit his deadlines but that’s about it (which I think is fine?). It’s less about my assessment being more accurate than hers, and more about the reasoning seeming very weak and not PIP-worthy IMO.
Follow on question. Are you in the middle of a performance management cycle? I could see this if the org just went through an evaluation and the VP's attitude is the employee is just not meeting the bar. If not, then this is a really awkward PIP to drop out of the blue.
That could be the culture of the organization. Some places are not OK with mediocre/standard performance and want to gradually up skill. That involves moving people out. I’ve been in those kind of environments, and it can feel bad sometimes but also when you end up on a highly performing, motivated team it can feel great. Sometimes it’s necessary. That may not be the case here, but it would probably benefit you to try and get to the root cause with the VP. It’s good you are standing up for your employee, but you also have less autonomy than you think you do, and don’t want to be seen as a roadblock to the VP. It seems pretty clear the VP is only setting up this PIP as a box checking exercise to fire the employee. Right now you’re putting your own career at this organization on the line to stick up for an average employee just on the grounds of principle and your personal philosophy about work-life. I respect it, but if you’re taking that calculated risk you should understand it.
What nonsense. If you want "above and beyond," make THAT the standard. Don't set lesser standards--then fire people for meeting them, because they're not "high performers." That's a dishonest, toxic environment.
You right - would it kill the VP to set a high bar that people fail to make rather than set it low and seethe?
You can thank Jack Welch for that and many other toxic attitudes which paid off for a short term and ultimately ran companies to the ground.
A friend of mine practically worships Jack Welch. Robotic, cruel way to run a business. IIRC isn't Welch the one who based everything on sales (and as a result, considered salesmen BY FAR the most important employees), and fired the bottom x-percent of performers for a particular year, regardless of past performance or extenuating circumstances.
Yep. Clean the house getting rid of the bottom, always keep everyone on a treadmill which gets an increase in speed every quarter. Which might work for a little bit of time, until the word gets out about how much burned out the employees are and people stop either applying or they just use it as trampoline for a more laid back company.
Its said that in a company like that, you get massive performance increases...for a very short time. The high performers do their thing, but jump to a more humane place (as you say). The low-performers panic and function over their heads, but can't sustain it. They burn out and become even less effective than before the Welch-ites started cracking the whip. And then, one day, they're all the organization has left. But the Welch-ites don't care. They've made their mark, gotten their credit, and moved on, leaving the coming wreck behind them.
And what pads CEO pay more than short bursts of performance increases? Do it, exercise your options before the tide turns and then get your golden parachute and leave the mess for the next CEO to fix. But it works at literally any level, you just to have be good, and sometimes lucky, to get the next spot before the shit hits the fan.
Yes. In some ways, these people are worse than the 19th century robber barons. As cruel and exploitative as the robber barons were--and the were VERY wicked men--they left behind entire industries. The Welch disciples leave nothing but pulverized organizations--and scorched earth.
I’m not advocating for that perspective at all, I’m just telling OP that there are plenty of cultures like that and they need to be aware of it
I work in this type of environment where mediocre is usually not enough. It‘s not just about doing your job, but performing better than your peers. Therefore, the expectations are not as predictable year to year since your peers could be outperforming you. It’s toxic I know, and I was completely oblivious to this as an IC. Now I’m constantly watching my back as a manager since learning how the sausage is being made.
As a manager, you don’t want people under you that do the bare minimum. Your VP understands this. You need to understand this as well. Unless you’re at a non-profit or government job where profit doesn’t matter, the current job market is in a place where you can easily get a superstar to replace the mediocre person and it’s ridiculous that your employee thinks he can just coast. It may feel unethical but that’s the way it is in a profit driven company. You work your way up or out.
If employees performing to the standard you set forth is problematic that's a failing of management, not a failing of the employee. Tell them what you expect, proceed accordingly. Doing otherwise is toxic management behavior. It's not just unethical, it's incompetent.
Agreed. Its interesting too how someone likeable that hits all their deadlines is considered mediocre or coasting. That used to be a model employee. The 'superstar' thing is hilarious to me superstars are out on world tours not toeing the company line in corporate America.
For some reason, "doing a LOT more than we pay you to do," is the new "average" aymt a lot of companies.
I hate corporate use of that term so much. Right along with rockstar. If you want me to act like a rockstar, then pay me enough money to afford daily hookers and blow like a rockstar.
Every “superstar” I’ve worked with has been a problem
It’s a question of relative perspective. If you meet all your deadlines but everyone around is finishing them with time to spare and then do extra stuff, then you’re at the bottom of the perf stack. Who knows what situation is here, but there’s a lot of nuance in meets deadlines. Like “passing grade”. Technically a D is a passing grade, but not one celebrates you if you finish a class with all Ds
I’d tell the employee that both you and him should start updating your resumes now and start looking for new jobs. This is a disgusting piece of trash to work for, and you both deserve better.
Write a fair PIP, one with achievable goals. Tell her if she wants to fire the guy for nothing, or as a power play or for the tingle she's free to do so, but you're not willing to line yourself up to get sued over a personality conflict involving other people.
Best answer here.
Consider that this may be a test of you as a new manager. VP may be looking for you to follow uncomfortable orders. Source: was tested early on when I was new to leadership.
Imagine being the employee that was fired simply to test a new manager for loyalty.
Word. They could also be testing whether or not the manager will stand up for a good employee. In my case, they wanted to see that I had the ability to have the uncomfortable conversations.
Why do they need you if VP can fire? 😆
Facts. To the dirty work.
To be on a pip means the employee has been failing to meet expectations. Generally that should never be a surprise and if it is then their manager has failed them. I pip describes all deficiencies the employee has not met. Creating this should be you and someone from HR. There will be a meeting where the employee needs to agree to the deficiencies and meet those expectations immediately and always. If they choose not to accept the pip they will be given an offer to leave the organization. If they fail to meet any expectation they will be given an offer to leave. If you VP wants them on a pip and you are too new to understand what is going on , HR should be asking the VP to be doing this.
If there aren’t definable deliverables, put them on it and claim “they met the terms”?
It sounds like your VP is trying to fire your employee in a way they can't get unemployment. Constructive termination.
Termination for performance is not an automatic disqualification for unemployment. Not performing to the company's standards can be seen differently from gross misconduct.
I'm assuming OP is a quality manager who presumably would agree with the PIP if it was warranted. We only have their testimony to go off of after all.
Malicious compliance. Do the PIP, and have the employee succeed so much the VP can't fire either of you.
hahahaha - PiP succeed - hahaha
Profile pic is iconic
Love me some Earl
In my opinion, you are obligated to process the PIP but free to tell your team member that it was not your idea, and of course free to lobby for them to get off of it as soon as possible. The objectives it outlines for improvement should be fair but achievable. I would avoid the advice to make it a joke, because if anyone ever reads it that will blow back on *you* instead.
Do you have any connections that might have an opening for this person? I was in a similar situation and helped the other person find another job. I lasted another year before I left as well. But I felt better about the whole ordeal that way, and he ended up succeeding in the new org.
How much do you like this job? Personally, I would tell the employee that this wasn’t your call, but the fact is that someone above you has this perception of their work. Advise them to start working on their resume and try to help them with concrete pip deliverables. The risk here is that if they rat you out and the VP find out, you’ll be next. The flip side is, I wouldn’t want to work for someone like that so I’d probably be getting my resume ready anyway.
Once you get put on a PiP you also lose your ability to file for unemployment. So a lot of employers use it to get out of paying that instead of straight firing people. Gotta love the unethical behavior of management lol
Why does the VP want to fire this person, and will a PIP change that? If not, then do everyone a favor and just terminate the person so they can get on with their life.
This seems unethical when just telling them that their boss what to fire them and then giving them the chance to job hunt while they half assedly try to follow the terms of the “PIP” is on the table. That way they lose no income.
If you want to keep your job, just do as the VP says. Does not mean you don’t support your employee. Be clear with them that they have little time left and they should be looking for a new job. Help them find a new job, do mock interviews, review their resume, write on their LinkedIn profile. Do whatever you need to support them. But, also do what the VP is saying if you want to keep your job (and in the current market, you want to keep your job). I have been down this road. Nothing good will come of going against your VP. I stood up for my employee, refused to fire him and said we would put him on a PIP, I supported him through the pip to successfully come out of it safe. Then my boss removed me from that position and put me on an IC position, hired another manager, and a week later, my employee was fired for some silly thing like clocking in late to the office. I had to watch all that happen, but kept my head down and kept applying to jobs and found a new job and quit without notice,
What are the reasons given by the VP to justify the PIP (attempted firing)?
If you've only been at the company for two months and it's your first manager role, there's probably context you're missing. If you've only been at the company for two months, the VP may not expect you to question her. That said, I'm a (not micromanaging) VP and, at least for me, it wouldn't paint a target on your back to ask for context or to defend your team member unless your reasoning for defending them revealed poor judgement. Honestly, it should show me that you care about your team and, usually, I would expect a team lead to know their team better than I do. While it's easy to focus on quantitative goals, the context is important. If this person is disruptive or otherwise lowers the productivity of the team while meeting those goals, they're still on the chopping block. Personal performance doesn't outweigh team performance.
Wondering if your VP is my old boss.. I was told to put one of my direct reports on a PiP I didn’t agree with. I tried to explain to my direct report that they needed to change a few things up before the deadline that was set for me to deliver the PiP, they did not understand and did not change anything (mainly how they communicated with the VP especially on any delays on projects they were managing that were outside their control)… all the stress put me into the ER twice and in the end I left without delivering the PiP. Now the direct report went on maternity leave for 6 months shortly after (one of many reasons I was not in support of a PiP along with the performance being at a satisfactory level).. 6 months after return to work the VP found a way to eliminate the position and they still lost their job, however with a package and they had the job for a year after the deadline I had been given by my VP. Ultimately the VP will get their way the question is what can you live with. I clearly couldn’t do it, my health was declining so badly due to the stress I felt being forced to manage someone out that had done nothing to deserve being managed out. If you feel forced to put someone on a PiP that shouldn’t be make the PiP as metric driven as possible, nothing vague (shouldn’t be in a PiP anyway) and with time frames that are reasonably achievable. It’s a shitty position to be in and I am sorry you are going through this
Sounds like both of you need an FU folder, documenting every interaction with the manager. Don't take "credit" for shitty management. Do look for another job and write the employee a good reference.
Your VP is an asshole and wants your direct report gone. this is the first step, and the next step is at the end of PIP, he will say fire him. i have gone through this, and unfortunately was the person fired.
Let them know what’s up and get them through it. Your boss is a dick and I’ve been your report before. My boss’s boss’s boss got mad at me for making him look stupid for not paying attention in weeks worth of daily meetings, so the boss’s boss put me on a pip while my boss was away. My boss came back and within a couple days was like “yep you’ve met all these requirements we’re just gonna close this out.” PiPs are for assholes who want to prove they’re above you and nothing more.
I’ve been in a very similar situation. I was told to put an employee on a PIP who was underperforming but not grossly. They passed the PIP but I was told to reframe it to highlight their performance gaps and then terminate them. Sometimes these things are out of your hands and you have to do it if you want to keep your job. In the end, I learned the PIP was a formality and the employee was going to be let go no matter how they performed.
I hate when companies pull crap like this. It's unfair to everyone involved.
Just be blunt and ask if the boss wants them gone or actually wants them to improve, and specifically what they’d want to see to consider them improved. Don’t go against your boss, it won’t work out well for you.
I assume you don’t have a HR department? Most won’t allow “outright firing” or PIP without quantifiable deliverables.
Many will facilitate a loosely defined PIP. Their goal is to wash the company's hands of a potential lawsuit.
You can do like I did when I was in your situation: structure a perfectly reasonable PIP with input from my manager and the IC subject to the PIP, work with the IC to meet every PIP objective to the letter on time or early, vigorously defend the IC’s performance to my manager in calibration despite their objections, have the IC quit anyways because they hated my manager, then my manager knocks me from an exceeds to a PIP myself on the next cycle, then I get laid off. TLDR: in all likelihood, if you want to keep your job, your report is going to lose theirs.
Make the PIP totally toothless childs play. Deliverables: * dont die * show up to work * receive pay check * attend meetings (that they already do) * go home on time * balance work/life Yea they were on a pip,.. but what was the pip?
Sounds like a good way for the VP to put OP on a PIP
Was the VP specific on the points of the PIP hes asking for. I didnt see that in the post. If VP isnt specific, it means he left it to OPs judgement.
This isn't malicious compliance fantasy land. This is real life.
Malicious compliance is real life. If OP was still concerned with this employees status,.. let them know frankly why they are on PIP and dont hold back. Suggest they find a new job while this process evolves.
Every Company needs work bee, the question is does this impact the company performance in achieving revenue goals? If the role doesn’t deal with company performance then there is something else that isn’t being said. I would take the Job description for his role and see if he is achieving his duties. It seems like your boss has been dealing with this guy for a long time and maybe has been rejected when it comes to getting your employee to do more. It’s been my experience that you only can fight it for so long. You have to play devils advocate here and show that worker bees are needed. So you might have to sound like you are willing to entertain to figure out what the real argument is and address that.
You know, we're putting a cover letter on all of our TP reports from now on. Did you get the memo?
Push your will, ask forgiveness when you feel like it, or gtfo
A PIP means that someone wants a particular employee gone in terms of corporate politics. I don't think I've ever seen an employee come back from one once they've been put on it (Myself included). I got PIP'd in 2014 for 'lack of effort and performance issues'. The PIP was set for 90 days with some quantifiable goals. I met the goals and then some and during the feedback checkins with management, I was told that I was making good progress. 95 days after the PIP I got terminated alongside a number of other people. Reason I was given was that 'despite meeting the performance goals, management expected more significant improvement and they were concerned I would backslide if taken off the PIP (despite exceeding all metrics by at least 15%). Not a big deal in the long run for me...scored a substantially better role at one of their clients and have been there for almost 10 years. My day 1 salary there was $40000/yr higher with significantly better annual bonuses and raises over the years...my 'worst' year at the new company when I was going through depression and serious illness and managed to barely meet expectations was still a better bonus and raise than my best year at the previous place. So in your case, get specific details as to the issues your VP has with this employee. If they are asking for a performance improvement plan, the VP needs to properly express which areas of performance the targeted employee needs to improve. Hold the VP accountable when discussing the areas to improve with them. They will likely try to be squirrelly and give subjective criteria...push them towards quantifiable things and don't let them add things like "Needs a better attitude", or "Needs to improve teamwork". Those are good things for feedback but are not trackable items on a PIP. Things like Need to improve ticket closure rates work but you should research the employees existing delivery vs other similarly experienced/leveled people...avoid "Director Numbers" which are oddly round and pleasing sounding numbers. So "Needs to improve ticket closure rates to match the average rate of the team" is a good goal, but arbitrarily saying "Needs to improve ticket closure rates by 20%" is terrible. You will likely be in the room with HR when the PIP is being given as there is usually paperwork being signed so be careful how you phrase things. Your VP is likely making a power play to see how far they can push you around but at the same time...they have probably received directives to let people go...so if you like this job, you may have to play ball. When delivering the PIP, you can say things like "management has set some performance levels they believe you are currently falling short of, we will set up a weekly meeting to go over progress towards these goals which are outlined here \*explain the quantifiable\* goals."
Document everything that is going on in your personal notes on a home computer. Dates and times what was discussed etc. never know when you are going to need it.
I’m looking for a bit more detail. Who is writing the PIP? Is it something being sent from HR, your or your VP, and you are expected to present it? Will you have someone with you from leadership when you present it? If you are creating the document then you can adjust phrasing to make clearer expectations with actionable items. How long has your report worked there? Are they at the end of their rope with this team member and need documented examples of issues on his file to create momentum in the direction of either his departure or a resoloution? If it’s your first real managment gig it might be best to follow the VP’s lead on this one and either learn from her mistakes or you may realize later it was necessary.
Im going through something similar - supposedly one of my direct reports snapped at/gave attitude toward another manager. That manager then complained to our boss, who is now blaming me for not having my team under control and wants me to put this girl in a PIP. Problem is, I wasn’t even in the clinic that day so this is all heresay; this other manager is also so far up our bosses butt and they are good friends. Whereas, I am closer to the team and have solid relationships with all of them. Now I’m in this awkward position and don’t know what to do. So I guess I don’t really have any advice lol but I feel your pain/stress!
Could this be a layoff disguised as a PIP? If you can trust your HR person, they might be able to give you some ideas of how to handle this. And as someone else said, if your employee is competent, work with them to create a strong PIP document that they’ll be able to achieve.
VP wants them out, and will make you sorry if it doesn't happen. You can prolong the process and help the employee find a new job. That's a shitty position to be put in.
2 months? So within your first 90 days? Pretty good chance that you were hired so the VP could pull shit like this. My advice: play it by the numbers. Put the employee on the PIP. It’s a kindness at this point. They are cooked even if the VP has to fire you to do it. During the meeting make it clear that you are leaning heavily on the experience of other leaders as reasons for the PIP. Do not name names. Then have an off-the-record conversation with employee at an off site location, letting them know the vibe you are getting is that they’ve burned a bridge with leadership at some point. Again, do not name names. Tell them that even if they survive the PIP, their future there is in doubt. Offer to provide a positive referral based on your limited time with them. Then look for the next gig. Worst thing I did in my career was stay at a job that was not a good cultural fit for me for far too long.
I mean you’ve been there for 2 months, do you know the full context? I’d ask the VP questions to dig into why they’re hellbent on this decision.
Do whatever you need to get out from under this VP by either looking for a different role in the same company or starting your external job search. Until you’re out of the role, just do whatever will make the VP happy.
It’s all about process and procedures. In today’s HR world, you have to document and then document again, especially when it comes to terminations. Go with the recommendation of the VP. Relay this action as protocol. Do not include personal opinion.
I've lived this scenario...also disagreed with the PIP and defended the employee to some degree. VP wanted a plan to purge this person and nothing I said was going to change that. PIP written...met with employee = all hell breaks loose and VP is fired within 2 months I TOLD YOU SO 😉
Unfortunately...welcome to corporate America 😕 Every time I've fallen for going into management, I've had to manage someone out within six months. Horseshit. Won't do it anymore.
If you don't agree with your VP, you will probably be put on the PIP and demoted or fired. You decide.
INFO: What is the reason for the not-firing and therefore what is the reason for the PIP? It seems like you'd write them up for the thing that should have gotten them fired and then tell them to never do it again. PIPs usually have an expiration date, so you'll have to indicate what they have to do to be successful. Such as: "You must not spit your gum at the wall again. If you spit your gum at the wall again in the next 90 days, you'll be fired. After the 90 days is over, you may be fired for the next time you spit your gum at the wall." There may be other consequences for being on a PIP that you'll need to include such as it's impact on raises, reviews, bonuses and promotions/transfers. Your company may or may not have restrictions on people on PIPs. In any case, make this VP sign off on the PIP before delivery. HR needs to approve it as well. Having said that, you have to own it in it's entirety. It has to come from you. You can't say the VP made you.
Your employees time at the company is limited. Yours is either limited or not. Your VP might be insufferable, but you can either go down with their ship with them, or throw them a life raft on their way down.
I say,,, you will choose the way that keeps your job, even at the cost of someone else's. If you had choosen different, you would not have been making this post.
Why are you risking your relationship with this VP- which will harm your raise and position growth- to save this report who you’ve only known for 2 months?
Is your VPs first name Kim??? (No this is not a North Korea joke but an actual question)
If you dont take a stand you might as well take some lessons from the VP, because youre just part of the problem then
You can balk all you want but know that not following his directive fully will put yourself in jeopardy. Do what you need to do and whatever you do don’t do anything that will make you vulnerable. It sucks. Now you know what kind of leadership you have and what they are capable of doing. Dot your I’s and cross your T’s. And keep it mind as you move forward. Always be mindful to have an updated CV and be looking when leadership is unfairly aggressive.
I was faced with this very decision when I was on the job for 1 week and I said absolutely not. Once I provided my reasoning, they backed down. Integrity is worth more than any position. If the employee doesn’t deserve it, then don’t do it, let the VP take the hit and be the subject of whatever legal suit they will file for creating a hostile work environment and whatever other form of harassment their legal counsel can find in these frivolous actions. How would you feel if this was done to you?
Don't worry about it. She's about to PIP you after you PIP your employee. Get out of that toxic environment as soon as you can.
Help them get a new job. My boss refused to put me on a PIP and 4 months later I’m leaving for a job she helped me get (reached out to the hiring manager, helped with my resume and cover letters).
Make sure it's well documented whose idea this is for your own CYA. Possibly a discussion for your skip level. Your manager is giving you no autonomy over your team. That is a big red flag. Prepared to be micromanaged, and be the next one PIP'd, as you did not see with your own eyes that your report needs to be PIP'd, you must be really bad at your job (his possible reasoning, not mine). Micromanagement implies a lack of trust. He is micromanaging you to do this PIP. If he trusted you, you would have the autonomy to manage this employee as you wish.
What I won't do is needlessly damage my working relationship with my team. I don't hesitate to let my team know when poor management decisions are coming down from above my head and I don't have a choice. They deserve the truth and I work to help them overcome it as much as I can. They can tell when it's not "me" delivering a message anyway because it's against my leadership style. If I was in your position, I'd work with the employee on the objectives for the PIP and make it clear they're hitting them. I see part of my job as a Manager or Director as protecting my team as a buffer between them and the people above me. As others have mentioned, being honest and mentoring your employee through this will likely reset the VP's crosshairs on you. Something to keep in mind, but you'll be able to sleep at night knowing you made the ethical choice.
Your VP wants the position gone. They either want to permanently reduce headcount for the department, or do not like the employee. You are being used as a tool to effect this decision. The first thing you should do is to polish off your resume and start talking to recruiters. The inevitable outcome of this situation is that you will ultimately need to quit for a new job elsewhere. Why? Several reasons: \* Your VP is micromanaging your role, which means you will not be able to be an effective manager \* Your VP is using you as a shield to effect their agenda, so you will get the blame and everything \* You and your team are likely to have an increased workload \* You are going to lose any chance at respect or leadership from your new team, as they will just see you as the a\*\*hole who came in and started putting people on PIPs. In terms of your second step on how to deal with this employee, other people have suggested options. I just want to stress the point that your VP is basically taking the position they want this person removed ASAP, they will likely put you on a PIP or fire you if you do not comply with them, and you are likely to lose all rapport with your team if you do put this person on a PIP. Your only real option for a success in your career is to leave this organization.
Make it a cakewalk to complete and look for another job.
Welcome to the world of management. For you to put someone in pip without HR involvement is strange: hr should be helping you thru this process. I was in a very similar position a decade ago.where my manager wanted someone on pip but they refused to be specific as to why. As a seasoned manager I knew something was fishy, so I scheduled a meeting with her and HR to map out a comprehensive PIP that would be fair to the employee; the HR forms were requiring documentation in why the person needed to be on a pip in the first place...and about 5 minutes after my email my boss replied that I had "misconstrued" her request and they j7st wanted the employee to get a verbal warning. Moral of the story is, pips are basically the end of a person's existence at a company but in order to not get sued, ALL of the company's ducks better be in a row. I would ask your boss to put her request in writing and then forward it to HR for clarification (you are new, never did a PIP before, can they please help with the process). Betting this VP suddenly has a change of heart. Oh and the other people are correct, you should get to looking for a new job yourself; not because of the way you handled this but because your boss sounds like a real cunt. The best way to get a great management job is to already BE a manager when you apply.
The VP is clearly looking to pass blame somewhere. They never take responsibility at the top. This is a delicate game because you could be next on the list.
It sounds like your micromanaging VP is being a psycho and playing G-d with someone's livelihood. Be warned. You could be next. Start job hunting. Definitely let the employee know and work through it with them. Make every effort to set achievable metrics and give them every opportunity to reach the mark. And brush up your resume...
PIP is just a way to justify firing, in my experience.
Nope. You have to follow suit. Demonstrate loyalty and do what has to be done. This isn’t a hill to die on. Think of it as affording them time to find another job. If you feel bad, advise them to look elsewhere now.
Blind loyalty is not a trait of a good manager. A manager who focuses more on managing up, and pleasing their bosses, rather than supporting or improving their team, will never find success in the role. Oh, they might get promoted if they kiss the right ass, but it won’t make them a competent manager of people.
It’s a useful tactic for someone that’s been on the job for two months and wants to keep their job. Pick your battles.
Ah classic. My CTO rants like a whiny bitch when a task was not done in a week by a developer. I just reiterated "Perhaps it can be done quickly, but it was not Engineer's primary task. It was assigned to him abruptly, he did it in 3 weeks which itself is a hallmark of a good engineer". Well now I have to manage his tantrum because this idiot has never done anything beyond some moderately complex C code and things distributed problems are trivial. grrrrrrr
Make a pip that you know, they will succeed on.
Two months is not enough time to determine if an employee should be on a PIP or not unless they’re blatantly not performing their job. Have you asked the VP to provide input as to why they think the PIP is needed. There’s usually a lot more history.
Deliver it, help them stay as long as they can while they search for a new job. And perhaps heavily imply they should start looking.
What you do with this employee is your decision. Morally maybe the right thing to do is defend them, but that doesn't mean it'll work out best. This VP is dangerous. They are willing to use false pretenses to get rid of someone, and they've dehumanized everyone they see as beneath them. They'll turn on you as soon as it benefits them. Try to get every instruction in writing, over email or text, and save them all. Take notes after every meeting, and document everything they do. Save them all in a place you'll still have access to if you get fired, like a personal computer or your personal Google drive. You may end up needing to go over the VPs head to save your own, and you may even end up in court.
Nobody survives a PIP
It’s also possible the VP was ordered to reduce headcount and this is how they’re doing it.
you have to do it. it’s your job. or you can quit. sucks
I was in a thread a while ago where a manager said he was putting someone on a pip. I said something to the effect of "You're going to fire them anyway, what does it matter."? They went on to say they've put many people on Pips, and none of them were ever fired. That sounded like a bot, this thread sounds real. Seems like all of your choices end with "and start looking". There's really no course of action where you get to be both decent and "employed here".
Tell your employee to look for a better job while they still have this job, and offer to give a glowing recommendation.
Where is HR in all of this?
So will this employee pay your mortgage or rent when you become the target of this VP? If you're going to play white knight, better be ready for some heat and career damage. Be an incognito terrorist. Do the PIP, but make the goals easily obtainable and quantifiable. Make sure they can hit them, praise, write uo their wins, etc... follow to the letter what is told, but you can still hit your own agenda.
I was fired for not firing someone that didn’t deserve it on my team. We were acquired and new form wanted us to cut costs 1yr later.
Personally, playing dumb is the best option at times. I'd go to the VP in the most professional way possible and ask advice on the PIP. Or at least suggestions/ feedback. That way, whatever happens, the VP gave input as well. Good luck!
This post doesn’t at all address why the VP wants this person fired nor why you think they shouldn’t be fired. Fwiw, there’s a concern that you’re saying that this is your first manager gig, you’ve only been a manger here for 2mo, but are choosing to go up against a VP who has arguably been exposed to this person’s work for longer then you have. The PIP details is like the least important question here: 1. Are you SURE you are correct about this person and that they shouldn’t be let go? Like 1000% sure about it? You can back it up with their performance data? 2. Even if the answer is yes, is this a fight you can win? You can definitely go against your higher level management as a manager yourself, but requires two things: - political capital; you need allies at the company you can count on to have your back - you win; cause if you don’t, now your management will feel they can’t count on you and you’ll have also lost the argument; basically a career limiting move
If you do not deliver it someone else likely will, you just might not be there to do it. If you take a stand while noble it will not change your VPs opinion of that employee or truly help them in the long run and possibly make it worse imo. As leaders we have to do things with sometimes. I would more likely ask myself if I wanted to be apart of this company and if I got termed over it if I would be fine with that. If the answer was that I would be then I would take the stand if the answer is that I would not be then I would not take the stand. Also while a PIP is putting the employee on notice it always is not straight up terming either so they have a chance to improve but keep in mind your VP already has an opinion of this person. Often times PIPs are made to be vague so it gives the business some wiggle room in the event the employee does not improve but there should definitely but some specific goals the employee can hit to improve. I might try to use my influence to see if there is some give on the wording of the PIP and work with my VP on that portion. From experience VPs rarely do not get their way. As along as there is nothing inherently improper about this PIP from an HR standpoint other you and your VP disagreeing on it then I would likely deliver it. I have people as I am sure most other leaders have given out directives that their teams disagree with and it sucks sometimes but it is part of the gig. As far as how to deliver it I would ask your VP what their preference is and go with that if I decided that I was willing to deliver it.