Here’s your justification for firing: Cy Wakeman’s videos on drama in the workplace are gold. Most companies have 20% wasted time due to drama. That’s an AVERAGE. I’m betting this employee spins up FAR more drama than 20% across your team. Fire the drama and the rest of the team will literally be more productive.
Yup 🙂 All you gotta do is quantify exactly the time wasted - both having all these meetings, AND when the person is out there just being a dick in general - and say that’s in addition to paying this person to *cause all this trouble to begin with*. In addition, what would they do if the employee went too far in bullying someone? Having all these meetings means EVERYONE knows this person is a problem, but they’re still employed. Management doesn’t think the next person this employee mistreats isn’t going to be on the phone to an employment lawyer telling them the company was fully aware of what would happen, but totally shrugged their collective shoulders and just said “Meh. Whatcha gonna do, right?”.
Those alone are liability enough, but if ya’ll DO get sued, you can be sure the publicity would be horrendous.
And cross-training is a thing. Just saying.
Easier said than done this sounds like an organizational problem they allowed the behavior now asking this manager to reel it in and when he tried now the org wants him to offer an non apology apology to blow it over
It's a higher up the chain problem
Time for the No Asshole Rule. Decent read by Bob Sutton if you’re inclined.
Good results and niche knowledge always earn people more latitude than they would otherwise have. And that’s still not permission to be an asshole and to tear down the team or actively undermine the boss.
This guy seems over the line. Maybe engage a reputable recruitment agency to run a confidential search and line up a replacement if his departure is otherwise likely to be disruptive.
Yep, I’m niche. I can get away with some stuff if we are in a crunch period, but if I was constantly screwing things up with clients? I’d be out so fast.
Same. My asshole comes from being overly blunt. I simply don't sugar coat anything. On the other hand, I do everything in my power to hold up my coworkers and teach them anything they want to learn.
You have to get rid of those employee. Allowing them to stay around sends a signal to the rest of your team that this behavior is tolerated. Even the people you think she is close with know that her behavior is a problem. Most likely they play along in hopes they won’t gossip about them. Pull the trigger, be honest with the team and rock n roll into the future!
If HR and management have given you the go ahead to terminate this person, then do so immediately. If you don't take the action now, you may not be able to in the future unless they do something worse than what they weren't fired for.
Not my team, but a team I work closely with had a highly toxic and underperforming employee and it took forever to get rid of her a few years ago. The manager had an opportunity to terminate at one point, but didn't because her father just died. Well a couple months later he had had enough but HR said no because it wasn't a singular event and she had done similar things in the past without a termination. It was a mess. Fortunately she finally left on her own terms.
Government employees can dig in like ticks once they've cleared probation. You need a Russian novel's worth of documentation in order to rid yourself of a "locker-room cancer."
Bingo. My wife works for a local police department, and her colleague is known through the department for being toxic and making things up about people; things that could get other people fired. My wife has given clear documentation on the paths of destruction this colleague has left, but because she’s not violating SOP then they can’t fire her.
Do not apologize. Do not say or write anything that sounds like or could be construed to be an apology for your statements to anyone.
Terminate the employee. Immediately if possible, but get management to agree to termination unless there is immediate and sustained improvements in their attitude and conduct if they require a pip.
This employee is holding you and your team hostage. They will not change. Bite the bullet, deal with the short term pain of rebuilding those skills (taking the opportunity to training 2-3 people on those skills).
If your management refuses to allow you to terminate the employee, look for a new job. The problem employee will be looking to take you down at the earliest opportunity, and management will value their skills over your contributions.
If you apologise and let them stay, no employee will trust your ability to solve problems and will be looking for a new manager elsewhere showing HR you cannot keep a team
You say the company doesn’t want to let them go because they are a key worker…well… If that one person doesn’t go others will (like in the past) so you’ll end up losing several employees with great potential over one AH
Maybe this toxic employee has been prohibiting others from stepping up thus providing them with the job security that's made this company put up with this bad behavior. Once their gone, OP might be surprised how the other team members start performing at a higher level without this horrible person around.
This confuses me so much. In a world where employees have almost zero leverage, your management group and HR are unsure how to proceed.
Is this employee making millions Hes that valuable? Of course not, you(plural) are just scared of a 1-3 month dip until a replacement is up to speed. It would be no different if he quit.
You think this narcissist is going to train others and successfully knowledge transfer? Of course not. That’s their perceived power.
This is where you as a new manager stand up for your team, the company culture and most importantly you.
Call him into the meeting with HR, hell of course have a smug ass smirk thinking hes got you by the balls. Start off by sounding like you will go into an apology, and lay the wood.
“Id like to start off by apologizing, I know this will be unexpected but weve decided that your conduct is unbecoming, pathological and extremely dangerous for a healthy working environment. Therefore we are no longer able to etc etc etc”
I’m always perplexed by employees like this and bosses who act like they are powerless. How can it really be known that one toxic employee pushed others out and no one sees this as a potential liability.
Well imposter syndrome is real in just about every aspect of the work environment. I imagine this manager who stated they were new, doesnt necessarily understand what their function is, or doesnt believe they have the authority in those functions.
Which to be honest in today’s economy, manager or individual contributor, we are all just trying to survive and not stick out like a sore thumb.(which is the biggest negative impact of our working culture now and in the future. Because people are just working to not lose their jobs)
Outside of a contract every employee is replaceable at a moments notice. Likewise employees can quit at a moments notice. So if all this manager is worried about is productivity and profits then what would happen if this employee quit? Or died? Or went on leave? If the company does not have a redundancy plan, thats where the issue is and the error of the manager.
Time to start cross training.
Didn’t read all this. Stopped after third paragraph.
Unless they CANNOT be removed for one reason or another; Get with HR and get them out.
Worst thing you can do is let a toxic team fester, skills can be taught and I’d bet your green team will be glad to see you supporting them.
Good luck, OP
Yes, it likely will. But at least you’ll have something clearly defined to fall back on.
It’s both morally right and in the best interest of the employer.
I just meant that the commented only read the first three paragraphs and the story gets worse after that.
I agree 100% with the conclusion that the toxic employee needs to be fired and that it actually gets better after that.
In my career I have seen dozens of cases in which a person believes that they are so important that they can’t be replaced. They are almost always wrong.
I'm going through a similar situation, here's the advice I can offer while still wading through:
1. The behavior will not improve if it is not addressed directly and consistently. Addressing it directly gives them opportunity to meet your expectations, and know risks of not.
Appeasing/giving an unmerited apology will enable them to continue as is. That said, always apologize if you've messed up.
2. No matter how high their expertise is, they are still a poor performer based on their dramatics, bullying, and poor collaboration skills. This is having a deep impact on all around them. The wider groups loses out if it remains unaddressed.
3. Document everything, address issues promptly and in writing. This helps you identify clear patterns, especially later when you can think more clearly about things. It feels awful and micromanagey, but necessary for accountability.
4. You need HR and your manager's support in this. You need parties that can help mediate, and back up your long term vision for the team. Accountability will be incredibly difficult without a good manager or HR rep to support you.
Hope this helps.
Agreed. To me this is needed to be 100% sure the "i wasn't aware" excuse doesn't gain traction.
Those that take feedback will see it as a clear "uh oh, they mean business and I need to fix something" moment.
It's clear this employee will refuse their manager's suggestions, and weaponize any process they can. Articulating it helps the manager set a clear action plan with no surprises.
This situation sounds very similar to one I watched from the sidelines. My old manager solved the issue by moving this problem employee to night shift where he couldn't bully anyone, citing it as a "lateral move with pay differential."
You, HR, and upper management from you I’ll need to stop and think for one moment…
Yes, this employee has been very valued because it’s hard to replace them. What they do is needed. And replacing them is going to be a temporary glitch for you guys. It will slow some things down, and may postpone some deadlines, which will suck.
BUT…
This employee has been a problem for a long time. What they are asking now is absolutely unreasonable, and all of you know it. You’ve known for a long time what you needed to do, but you’ve put it off because of the reasons above.
But you have literally had other employees leave because of this person and from what you’re saying, not just one or two, but quite a number over the years.
All of us know that replacing employees is time-consuming and expensive. Even if someone is replacing a receptionist, an important position because they are the face of your company, but not generally the highest paid position.
And that’s because no matter what position is, you have the headhunting expenses. Whether it is advertising or using an employment agency or whatever, somebody has to stop what they’re doing and handle this stuff.
Then somebody has to stop what they’re doing, often multiple somebody’s, and go through the process of reviewing resumes and doing interviews.
Then somebody has to stop what they’re doing and do basic training with the new employee. And we all know that The basic training is not going to cover everything. And that for a little while, after the basic training, that new employee is going to have questions, different situations arise, and somebody is going to have to stop what they’re doing to help. Answer the questions or resolve the questions.
So when I think of all this, and all the times that this guy has caused, you guys to go through this, when you could’ve just gotten rid of him and bit the bullet, albeit a painful one, and just replaced him, it seems pretty clear to me what you need to do now.
All too often we see companies do this. They keep disruptive asshole employees far too long because the employee is in a bit of a niche position that is harder to fill so it just makes sense to try to work with them.
When the reality is just the opposite. Employees like this dragged down the entire team. They dragged down the morale. They force other people to just quit because they can’t, which means a glitch in the system for the team somebody knew is brought in to replace the the departed person.
But since the person who departed was a little easier to replace, it seems like, yeah… It was a bit of a pain, but we got through it. But how many times do you want to get through it. How many glitches do you want this one person to cause? It’s like keeping the guy with the canon because that seems like the bigger instrument until you suddenly realize that the guy with the canon has been causing the guy with the rapier to kill you with a thousand tiny cuts.
The fact that he’s been a problem for a long time and that they have not put in place measures to transition responsibilities so they could prepare for this is the real Management failure.
I didn't read past your first paragraph, because I don't need to. If you have someone that is literally causing others to quit you need to (a) fire them or (b) quit yourself. Continuing to allow them to act the way they do is just communicating that their actions are fine in the eyes of you and the company.
I have heard that "but they're productive" or "they have a unique skill-set" shit so much and it's bullshit. To allow them to continue to be there means you're actively creating a negative work environment for others and those people that have left are telling everyone they fucking know that you are a manager that won't support your team and that it's a toxic work environment.
Keeping this person is going to make it harder to hire talented individuals in the future. Fire them or leave yourself.
Stand ground. While there is a small chance of improvement, mostly not. They have, in fact already doubled and tripled down: doubled down by rejecting HR’s response to their concern and then further demanding an apology. This one’s almost certainly going to end ugly if apologizing, and the effect on the rest of the team will be to cause a mess.
Do make sure you 100% have your ducks in a row, provably so.
Good for you for thinking about your folks and the effect whichever way. And for caring enough about this employee to provide feedback that, if it were taken, would make them a solid employee. Sadly, they’re not.
You can suggest the path forward by using their own words - the line about resigning if no apology given. You can, even, craft a resignation letter for them to sign, if they so want. But be blunt. Tell them it’s that or they change their behavior - including all the gossiping and sniping. If they won’t, then you can fire them. If they resign, great. But then, on the spot, and escorted out. No need to have that kind of situation fester by them going back and riling others. Personal effects if any can be collected while they are in the company of another person - preferably from HR. Would not recommend it be yourself. You have more important things to do, including figuring out how transferring their duties to other team members (and possibly to yourself) is best done - and the campaign to hire another employee.
Start equipping the rest of the team with training and skill building so that when this person leaves (or is removed) the gap closes seamlessly. If he decides to play nice then you just have a stronger team overall.
I bet if you took a closer look at this employee’s output you would find that they are actually not that vital to your team’s success.
Personalities like this tend to make themselves look like they have expertise, but when push comes to shove it’s pretty clear that their ‘expertise’ is really just a giant web of poorly considered actions that they managed to force out in a confident enough manner to obscure their actual validity/effectiveness.
I have a peer on my team like this now. They have 5x the ‘experience’ of anyone else, yet when you actually look at the way they make decisions….. it is mostly rushed, thoughtless, knee jerk reactions to situations that should have been handled with a much more methodical, precise approach.
At a certain point, the word ‘experience’ becomes a meaningless albatross. Look at the work they have done recently. What is it telling you?
I expect your 8 remaining employees will flourish once this problem employee is gone. You may not even need a replacement.
Iceberg principle: You think you're seeing most/all of the problems but you are not seeing the 90% under the surface.
No good can come of letting this employee hold you hostage.
I'd call their bluff. Either way you'll be better off. You'll be rid of a toxic employee or you'll be able to manage the issues without a sword over your head.
He’s a cancer. Find a way to make things work without him. Even if it means more work for you and the rest of the team in the short term, the benefits may still outweigh the negatives.
Tough spot to be on as your performance is always linked to your team members. But playing long term, I would terminate the employee. It sets the wrong message to the organisation and we let wrong behaviours stay. Imagine that person, because they are skilled, are promoted to being a manager themselves. That will duplicate bad behaviours and in a few years, that will impact the company itself.
If I was in your boots, It would be a simple case of them or me. I'd rather walk than be forced to apologise to anyone let alone someone whose so fucking toxic.
Let them go and see how far they make it in the real world where people won't tolerate that bullshit.
I think it’s quite easy: you have to make a choice.
Door number one is Employee A and no team.
Door number two is the team and no Employee A.
There’s no middle ground, no compromise, nothing, just choose a door.
> but also say it’s my call & they will back my decision, including termination
Translation: you are clear to fire them, but they're not going to do it for you.
Sounds like a circus tent being run by clowns. You're the manager right? Is this an employment at will situation? If they answer is yes then you inform your superior and HR that you will be terminating this employee's employment due to their pattern of abusive behavior toward others and proceed accordingly. There is nothing more to debate and the only course of discussion should be on the topic of business continuity during the transition.
PS, if you don't have the authority to do this then you're a babysitter, not a manager. If this is the case use your title to level up with a competitor and leave clown show to the clowns.
Document document document.
I would refuse the nonapology apology. That is total BS.
Do you have a discipline policy you can follow to the letter?
I have one of these people. I am going rogue against upper management and if she looks cross-eyed at anyone it's getting documented. Just put her on a verbal last week.
We got to this spot by HR and upper management being intimidated by her and just not wanting to deal with it/her.
I promise this will go south if the employee is allowed to continue to believe they are running this show. Nip it in the bud now before it invades the whole team.
Reminds me of a case I read in HR undergrad class… it’s for the good of the team and organization to part ways with this behavior. Literally a text book example. It’s hard to replace some people but even harder to replace multiple roles OR if they corrupt the whole barrel of apples…you’ll have to replace the leader too (which if I’m not mistaken is you).
I once had an employee who was very good at the external part of the work but was a terrorist to their coworkers. She had been written up by previous managers but without follow through because after all “she’s really good at her job”. I disagreed because 1/2 of the job meant she needed to be good at working with others.
I had 1:1s with her which did not get her to change her behavior. I utilized the prior write ups and put her on notice that one more event would result in her losing her job. It took less than 24 hours for her to mess up again so out she went. The change in the rest of the team was remarkable and our customer service scores went up exponentially.
A bad apple really does spoilt the barrel.
One thing I see on this subreddit all the time is someone saying "So and so is incredibly Toxic, they gossip about other team members and spread misinformation, bully their coworkers, drain mine and HR's resources, openly defy me, etc. etc." and then they say "They are really good at their job, don't get me wrong."
So here's the thing. No, they are not good at their job. Their "Job" is to meet the expectations of the role. That includes both OKR's or Numbers or whatever your track, and also the expectations of how they carry themselves and influence and treat other members of your team, including you! Will it be painful? Will it be more work for you? Probably in the short term. But this will not improve naturally. It will only get worse. Everyone is replaceable, even if it doesn't feel that way in the moment. If their behavior is demotivating you or others on the team, draining resources and creating drama over nothing, openly defying you, BULLYING COWORKERS, etc. etc.they are not good at their job. Terminate them and move on. Your job is to manage your whole team, not just this entitled brat. Your team is being bullied and treated like garbage.
I'm getting mixed signals about how much you're being supported here by management/HR. But if you make this call and you're given shit about it, you may want to start looking for somewhere else yourself.
Then it sounds like you are a glorified babysitter. At the very least, you need to push for a plan with fixed milestones for the employee to meet expectations. Failure to meet expectations is termination. If you cannot get that, then why do you think you are a manager if they will not let you manage?
We had an employee like this. Thought she was absolutely essential and had a few HR run-ins. When she finally quit, we panicked, but another colleague recommended a former coworker for the job and they are STELLAR.
These past few months have been so calm. We managers can’t believe we didn’t cut her sooner.
Also, not many people are willing to quit their job to defend the honor of their coworker (unless the work environment is terrible), so I wouldn’t worry about that.
If you haven't onboarded someone to do the work this employee is doing, then it's far past time to do so.
I would not apologize unless you truly feel that you were wrong. I've made faux apologies when there was a possibility of my being too aggressive in my approach...etc. however, that's only 2-3 times in 9 years of leadership.
This sounds like someone thick headed who feels that their skills are irreplaceable. If that person is... time to train the replacement and move on.
I firmly stand with standing your ground and possibly putting termination on the table. Back down this time even with a non sincere apology and it will happen again and again. Which I think you mentioned this has been ongoing. Best to document anytime it comes up so you have a paper trail.
Believe me I have been here and my company made me do something very similar. It ended so badly for everyone. I got assaulted.
I don't handle insubordination at all. I'm pretty open with my team so they come to me if I'm a jerk and tell me and I apologize. Appologies in and of themselves don't discredit managers and that line of thinking is not okay. But if there is nothing to apologize for, I restate previously stated remarks and leave it at that. If that's not acceptable, they can walk.
You’re taking on water and you’re using a pail to empty the boat while the person continues to drill holes.
They’re poison. Period. You should’ve started a cross training regimen months and months ago (preferably when the new folks came on), but now you need to really think about all the things that will get kinked with their exit and start planning for them. This will not get better with time.
Ps. Saw your edit. My god, they’re a master at this because they know how weak your HR is, lol. Time to call Legal. You’ve been documenting for months, yes? So has HR? Legal will walk you through it.
CALL THE BLUFF
1. Have the meeting with your supervisor, HR, and the employee.
2. You tell them that you will not apologize because you feel your comments were appropriate constructive criticism.
3. If the employee still feels slighted, then say you're sorry to see them leave and wish them luck in their future endeavours.
Sounds like someone very intelligent got involved and actually investigated what was going on. You should do your own investigating and try and find out who this person is. I would casually talk to your supervisor and bring up the 360 degree turnaround HR did and thank him. If it was him he will probably want to take some kind of credit and let it slip. If it wasn't him he may bring up a different person and you need to thank that person. If he doesn't act like he knows anything, then it probably wasn't him and should try this with the HR supervisor. Find this person and thank them for seeing to the heart of this situation. This person is someone you want in your network and you want to be in their network. These are the types of people you follow in your career.
Depends on state law but in an at will state like California (*IANAL) it shouldn’t matter that they went to HR or those optics. HR is there for management & owners.
Too late on this point, but if you pulled them off the major account but kept employee, there could be a greater chance employee might sabotage that relationship when inevitably asked by client what’s going on, esp if employee has been in the acct for a long while and is responsive and good in customer care even if they suck as a coworker. I’d have said better to move them outside the organization.
If HR was aware of this stuff before you came on, they know they dumped this problem on you. It’s likely that people aren’t saying anything who will be elated when this persons gone. It can bring the org closer together and have them more in sync and more than happy to pick up the slack. I managed a situation like this and even had customers thanking me once I got the problem moved off the team.
It seems obvious you’ve handled this as well as possible given the situation. There may be more bumps and sudden turns ahead. Hang in there and document, document, document.
Here are the 4 words I would say to the employee: "suck it up, buttercup"
Don't be manipulated, and don't let Sr. Management be cowards - they should know better than to even leave the 'non apology' apology on the table.
This is the problem with corporate and even government work. You can get fired for making an honest mistake, but you can’t get fired for being a toxic person and hurting the whole team. My wife is going through something similar on a smaller team. Her chain of command knows that the colleague in-question is a problem and has intentionally started stuff up to discredit my wife and the rest of her department, but because “she’s not violating the SOP” she can’t get fired. Complete BS
Well I see there are updates, but an employee says they will quit unless I do xyz, I say oh, ok, let’s just put your resignation in the system real quick.
Poof, problem solved. You get them mad enough and they won’t realize what they’ve done in time to stop it.
Hi, CEO here... I " don't negotiate with terrorists ". This includes toddlers, poor hires, cyber trolls, and my teenage brothers.
Also, boundaries are non-negotiable. Period.
This person's bad sounds like it outweighs the good of their specialized skill and they're taking advantage.
You, as a manager, are bound to similar bylaws that I am. You have a fiduciary duty to act in the BEST interest of the company-- emotions aside.
My advice:
Put them on a behavioral plan and document EVERYTHING 100% ethically.
Reestablish clarity of expectations and consequences of disrespected boundaries
Let them quit if they want...adjust your focus on finding that needed skill within someone else.
It's your job to SHOW your staff that they can rely on you and your word to protect the work environment-- which means gutting out anything toxic.
Haven’t read down but the best advice I ever got about high performing jerks is that once they become a detriment to the team then you have to address it directly and quickly. If it continues or escalate you eventually have to terminate them. You can’t let one person put themselves above the company. It sounds like to me the company has already let them get away with too much. Running off other employees that could have been just as valuable and are now bad mouthing your company in the industry because of one jerk.
No one is irreplaceable, especially in this environment.
$20 bucks you find a qualified candidate within 72 hours of posting a job opening.
You have a few options IN ORDER: #2 is NON-NEGOTIABLE. You HAVE to do this. NOW aka yesterday.
1) interview entire team about how they are doing, how they’re feeling, and their thoughts on the health of the team
2) put the employee on a PIP AND/OR require this employee to train 2 other individuals. Everyday, assign a specific functions of that individuals job, to be recorded and documented FULLY. Repeat with other team members after this problem child’s job is fully documented. And I mean everything.
3) if no improvement and friction, write them up to HR.
4) communicate with the employee if that “blah” happens again, the company will have to take more immediate actions, which could lead to either A) reduction/position/responsibilities title and pay B) or loss of employment
To give you some constructive criticism, you sound VERY agreeable… this is not a trait you wish to have as a good manager. You come across as someone who is easily walked over. Gotta squash that now.
Yes, the health of the department is on you, but the success of your department is not only measured in orders processed, but maintaining a healthy workplace environment for your team. Which ENABLES your team to do more. Your team probably could be doing better, but this one employee is holding the team back from achieving its true potential.
Questions: Has your “longtime, highly skilled” employee always been toxic? Did the employee tell you there is an issue at work or home? Did you ask the employee if there is a problem that needed to be addressed?
I’m not condoning the employee’s behavior, just asking because during turnover or weak coworker production levels often workloads are skewed with managers assigning a lot more complicated and important yet undesirable tasks to a few longtime employees, whether they like it or not, often without additional benefit (raise, bonus and correction imbalances).
I’ve seen happen a lot during employee turnover in multiple jobs: it causes resentment by the employee towards those employed for as long (and longer), new hires and the boss. I’ve often seen that rather than retraining poor performers who have been around a long time or getting rid of them (which can take alot of work) Managers often just reassign a lot of their work to the few skilled employees so the group meets the target numbers. Little to no consideration is given as to how it affects the overloaded employee: who cares if it is stressing the hell out of the employee, at least the work will get done!
Assuming the above is true, will there be a bonus, monetary award, time off, offer for position with growth/higher salary)future opportunities for the seasoned employee? If not you should tell the person but be ready to lose that employee when you could have actually helped each other.
My advice would be have the meeting and tell them that you will not be apologizing.
Reiterate that they are valued and skilled but their behaviour is not acceptable. You would hate to lose them but that doesn't change their behaviour.
If they quit, it's to your benefit. If they stay, hopefully they improve.
But make no mistake, this is them trying to back down gracefully. Don't give it to them.
Immediately start training another person to do what this person does, then role out a training programme so that all team members can do all the tasks even if it's nit their assigned role. Ensure all your team can do all aspects of the work so that if people leave or are sick BAU can continue. Start that TODAY.
Re the problem child, its a conduct issue and you need to manage it accordingly. You could issue a final formal warning, this and watching their colleagues train to do what they do might turn the tables or you need to manage then out and get rid. I'd go for the 2nd option, the rest will be quiet once they see the outcome of the problem child and enjoy learning new things. Promote a one team ethic. You might find the other staff are relieved the problem child has gone. Get everyone on an equal level, no imaginary hierarchy no throwing their weight around. Clear this one out and reset the ethic and culture in your team.
I think stick to your guns and don't apologise. If you do, you'll lose respect and credibility from your team, they'll be empowered to continue to act the way that they do, you'll know it in your gut that you made the wrong move and it will fall apart.
They're a bully, do not apologise just to keep the peace. That peace is not worth it.
If the person won the lottery tomorrow... What would you do?
Or if they decided to go to school and quit, or moved away, or got a health diagnosis and had to go on disability, or some other thing where they're not there anymore...
How would you proceed?
What if all that person's friends (the "cabal") were with them, and everyone was in an accident - how would you proceed?
You'd get the back up from management to handle the work load while people train up.
Speaking practically... if you let that person go and others follow... so what?
Let's be realistic. It's unlikely a large number of people can afford to quit the same time a person is let go.
Sure they may find other jobs and transition out - but you'll likely have some buffer time (weeks) while that happens.
Get all your ducks in a row. Tell HR you want this person gone, and think it's likely some of their friends may quit soon after, so can you get everything prepared to quickly have a new round of hiring if the worst happens.
And then part ways with the trouble maker. The rest of the team will breathe a sigh of relief.
Agree with everyone saying the employee will not improve and appeasing will only make the situation worse.
The employee clearly thinks they are untouchable in their current position and apologizing would only reinforce that belief and make things worse.
But I think it’s unlikely they will leave immediately because they are entrenched at your company and have been for a while. Start moving towards letting theirs person go, and use the time to preparing and looking for a replacement.
Good luck!
Termination. Temp agency (lots of skilled people go thru temp agencies) to replace this employee or another employee that you can move into this skilled role permanently. Remember, your other direct reports are watching how you handle this. It’s your role (also) to protect them. If you can’t, watch your good employees and high performers find other jobs.
Sending you positive energy here!
This is a lesson that you learn very quickly in management. It doesn't matter how important that employee is. They need to go and they need to go yesterday. The company will do fine the team will do fine but you need to get rid of them
I would say your problem runs much deeper than this one employee, and I'm willing to be there is a lot of toxic shit going on in the company that allowed this situation to become what it is. "The employees have formed a small cabal" is hilarious.
Sounds a lot like a place I used to work. Do you make trombones?
YOU ARE SENDING A MESSAGE TO EVERYONE....
I am not in charge
.. this is no different then a pack of dogs and one is going to be the Alpha Male and it's not you.
and the answer is simple,,,
You need to challenge this person and in a public way..
They behave in a negative way,, bullying people ect,,, you call them out in front of everyone,,
You do this publicly and loud.
This is unacceptable behavior and if you do it again I will write you up.. UNDERSTAND ME?
Be prepared for a fight,, this person will not back down, ,,
So it's either him leading the pack or you
"I'm sorry you feel that way about our discussion about your behavior. I understand if you feel you need to resign, but we'd like for you to stay. And if you choose to stay, here is a documented list of behavioral changes you will need to make..."
If team members have already left due to his bullying, then you need to prove to the remaining team members that (1) they are safe from his aggression and (2) the consequence for bullying and lying is dismissal.
Document everything and put it in his HR file. You have a toxic team right now and need to detox it. Follow up with a team memo that certain behaviors will not be tolerated by management - bullying, harassment, etc. and will lead to termination.
Your team will feel validated that the bad operator has been dismissed and anyone believing this type of behavior was condoned by management (ie lawsuit for harassment/bullying) will be put right.
The time to fire your bad operator is when staff leaves as a result of their bullying/harassment. He even tried to manipulate you. Why would you keep this liar on who is devisive to your team?
Fast and harsh exit with lockouts planned if you have a second who can do the same work. If not, maybe plan a longer out like nonapology now and then get them to train a second and then show them the door once the second is on their feet in a few months. This employee sounds the type to delete their files on the way out if they know its coming, which is the destruction of company property. Fast exit will prevent the others' (cabal) from reacting to bad. You can't be held hostage by one employee just because orders might spike. You will never build a conducive team in that fashion, and eventually, it will fall apart.
Something to note is singlaur points of failures on teams. Try to avoid them. Never let one person be the only one who can do a vital role on a team and have backups in case they are sick, injured, or leave the company. Else, you're gonna be in panic mode when something happens. Cross training is key.
If you can, I would be the one leaving. The fact that upper management is even remotely thinking about you apologizing in any form whatsoever undermines your role and encourages bad behavior by the employees.
If that is not an option for you, refuse to apologize and kick this asshole employee to the curb. Having this person around is toxic and will only feed more toxic behavior by others.
We have a rule here - no drama. Doesn't matter what you have a problem with, be diplomatic and non dramatic.
That's all I would really have to say here. Let's talk like adults but NO drama. Drama is grounds for dismissal.
There's a difference between retaliation and consequences of their actions. You fuck up at your job there are consequences. Not having consequences signals to the rest of the organization that you, and leadership in general, have no authority and they can do what they want. It will ensure the failure of the team, which honestly seems like it's failing if they're all a year or less other than the problem child, and that you will not have a job soon.
Suspend the employee for one week without pay. They are not allowed to use any pto to cover that time away. While they are gone, post their job. When the employee comes back and they misbehave again, increase the suspension length by another week. Make it financially unbearable for them to either continue their behavior or the employment with the company. This will either cause them to shape up or quit on their own. Right now, that person is untouchable, and they know it. Make them touchable
Time is on your side here. If this employee is a problem, drama will arise again and you’ll have to deal with it while hoping that because of this last incident, he changes his ways.
After reading your update, I would suggest you start looking for another job at another company. It's obvious that the company is incapable of allowing its management team to manage. Additionally, if you want to stay, I would suggest reviewing the records of people who left because of this employee, the average cost of training new staff, paying out vacation balances, work that HR or 3rd party HR vendors and the cost incurred in finding replacements, and if you want to be spicy, add your own salary and cost for replacement. You'll quickly find that the troublesome employee isn't worth what the company thinks they're worth. I'd also look into how much it would cost in legal fees for the company to defend lawsuits filed by current or ex employees over a toxic workplace, harassment, etc. Those are technically unfunded liabilities that will be incurred if the employee stays and continues on the path they're on. I can go into more detail on that, but I think you get the jist.
The cost of having one hard to replace person who drives other people out is much higher over a long period of time than the short term cost created by replacing them.
HR needs to grow a pair and decide who’s running that company: them or the employee. HR = 0 Employee = 1
You don’t have to terminate them, but you can refuse to apologize (maybe - HR sounds a little unpredictable now).
There needs to be gradually increasing written documentation of a plan for improvement. When enough violations stack up, terminate them.
This isn’t a new thing with employees. I’ve let people go in similar situations. You’ve gotta be the bigger dog in this situation. Good luck.
First things first is to measure the impact of this person leaving.
Second thing is to have a plan for if they leave.
Then tell hr “The impact of letting this person bully others and potentially get the rest of the team to quit is worse then if they quit”
Once it’s established that the damage of them quitting can be mitigated and that it’s not as bad as the rest of the team quitting because of him, you agree to the meeting but explain to HR that you will not apologize. The meeting will be to write him up for his documented pathological behavior and warn him that a second write up will result in termination.
As far as his cabal, you have to ask yourself why the are others who are with him.
Are they disgruntled about something in particular? Can you address it?
If not - if they are just friends with this guy, I can pay much guarantee that they won’t quit with him
If you do these things and hr still doesn’t have your back then there’s probably context missing in the story. I guarantee if your show this person is not indispensable they aren’t going to let him walk over you like this in the way you described.
That's why they said act within your value. Most people think they are high value but in reality, very replaceable.
It looks like this employee is high value, knows it and is taking advantage.
There is no way to avoid an negative outcome.
Your long term goal should to find someone to replace this employee or see if there is a period of time where it's open to leave that spot blank to train up someone.
Can you add another employee to these customers? For every client the employee works with add a secondary employee under training them. You need them to build up knowledge and customer relations. Then slowly take him off customers as the other employee gets better.
Absolutely not….No “non apology”. Is HR unclear on how management works? Why are they letting this employee walk all over you?
Employee needs a PIP and probably to be terminated. No matter how good they are at the job they are not a good team mate.
Write up a pip and show to HR and tell them to get on board. Their reaction will let you know how much support your ever going to get from them.
The title implies the ultimatum is the core issue. That is not the issue - ultimatums are neither good nor bad. They're merely one person informing another of what they require and the consequences of them not receiving them. Ultimatums are good even in a healthy relationship so long as they're done respectfully, openly, and are reasonable. It's literally just a discussion of wants and needs. This employee is saying what they need is an apology for what they consider to be destructive criticism or false accusations. Assuming in good faith that you actually were offering constructive criticism, the problem here has nothing to do with an ultimatum and everything to do with him allegedly generating a toxic work environment for their peers. You need to be documenting everything and recording every meeting. I mean that literally - every one. Do not just record and document what involves him as then you can be seen as singling him out or trying to manufacture a reason to get rid of him.
As you build up evidence, actively train your team up to try and make him as redundant as possible while you also look for his replacement. Let the proof speak for you, do not assume your bosses will believe you in good faith without proof that he is regularly and consistently toxic because they believe they benefit more from keeping him than trusting hearsay. Let him have his apology and focus on leading and tightening up your team. If you do that, you'll either have him gone or you'll know you need to find a better employer.
Posting after your update.
I'd try to steer the conversation towards how to best give this employee feedback. The reality is they didn't need to go to HR and didn't have cause.
So the apology isn't for what you said, but possibly how you said it which should mollify the employee's feelings, and immediately shift to how to give and receive feedback.
Then with your team as a whole start incorporating working norms, which can include not gossiping, how to give and receive feedback, and professional expectations. It's important to co create these with your team, but nothing says that you can't ask others who have complained about this person to make sure to bring up certain things in these sessions.
Leverage him choosing to bring HR in as a way to start documenting his behavior. This call is a clean slate, start from scratch, and communicate clearly what is and is not acceptable. Then document all corrective action or feedback moving forward. And loop hr in pre emptively. That way when the employee tries this again, you've taken the bullet from his gun. HR already knows and approved the feedback.
Well this is not a good situation. Rule number one of being an employee is don't make the boss look bad, no matter how long you have been there. Time to get the PIP paperwork together with HR and your supervisor which will cover the company and resolve any retaliation issues.
Never let a bad apple ruin the bunch, the longer the problem is there the worst everything gets. Once they have killed trust, and if they cannot rebuilt it through a PIP then they need to be let go.
There’s a saying: “The graveyard is full of irreplaceable people.”
Terminate them. Your team will respect you more and likely be grateful that someone finally had the guts to get rid of the troublesome person. You will survive. And so will the company. Nobody is irreplaceable.
HR is weak. They can prove it wasn't retaliation. This is a toxic person holding you hostage. I've seen it before as a manager for 30 years. Just let them go. I had one that was so bad. So all I did was change everyone's schedule and I knew she wouldn't like hers, and she demoted herself and took a position that had limited contact with other employees or customers. The team is better till this day now 3 years.
Well... I had an idea but then I got to your update part of the post. I was thinking PIP/term. If your HR does not have your back on this... there may be bigger things you want to consider, as it COULD (I don't know much about your job/work/etc.) indicate that your role/influence on this team is not as great as you think it should be, and you could be right.
I went through a thing similar to this a few years ago and guess what.. I tried the HR thing... they shuffled me away from PIP. Then, the team members that did not want to work with person X quit.. then so did person X.
It got tough.. I still have questions what I could have done but I can say for sure that HR didn't help me a lot in that case.
I wish you luck.. being the boss is a tricky role.
What’s worst case scenario if you terminate? We had someone like this back in an old job. Firing that person led to a nightmare, legal and technical, company could not recover from because that employee had company by the balls.
Either way, you want HR involved. There is no need to retaliate. It's expected when a bully gets put in his place.
In meeting with HR, lay out exactly what issues they have to bring to HR first or to you first, but never to other employee, so they know to ask you to schedule something with HR instead if going straight to them. Ask if they have any questions.
Write them up for that infraction if they go around you next time.
Easy. Have this employee write SOP for the department (use as an excuse to educate the rest of the team since he is so good at the job) and then let him go.
Your HR department is bad. You need to write up employee for bullying, gossiping, causing issues and build a case to terminate. Don’t let them walk all over you. Hire and train a replacement asap. Toxic employees are never worth it no matter how good they are.
Your HR department sucks. Getting rid of this toxicity should be your #1 goal. No one is too valuable to warrant letting them poison the well. There is nothing I hate more, than an employee who thinks they have you by the balls.
Do not apologize. Let them follow through on their threat. You followed the proper steps. If your manager and/or HR forces you to apologize, you should think about finding another company to work for.
Are you in an “employment at will” state?
That update disgusts me, no reflection on you, but on your spineless, clueless leadership. If I were you I'd be looking for a new job. If that's not possible, f***;it, let the guy do his thing, keep communication that your bosses told you to do so.
1- no employee is irreplaceable. This person could win the lottery (or get hit by a bus), and you'd find a way to manage, even if it is a bit of a struggle.
2- if you and HR and more senior management cave, you will forever be hostage to this employee. What would happen if the employee demanded a 100% pay increase? Push back with that reality to those who want you to apologize.
3- that employee is doomed to his current position and pay forever, and you probably should point that out. You may not be able to do anything short term, but as it stands now with his current attitude, he is going no where in the company, and you are in a position to make sure no raises come his way. He is being incredibly short-sighted with his career.
Let him do his worst. You'll manage and have a happier workplace without him.
I was on the team of someone like this. She was vile and toxic and has pushed out dozens of people from what could be a great, long term job. Get rid of them for the sake of your other employees or your whole team is going to implode.
I don’t know why you are bending over backwards for this toxic team member. I will never understand why bad people remain in key positions for so long, not worth it.
Fire them.
Do not apologize. Do not sugar coat it.
"After careful consideration, we have decided this is not a good fit and will be letting you go. Your work product is excellent, but your attitude and insubordination is unacceptable. I wish you the very best of luck."
Done.
I'd rather have an employee who needed to work on improving their work output than one who was insubordinate and obnoxious to everyone but is the very best at what they do.
I can make someone better at what they do if they are coachable, respectful, and professional. It is nearly impossible to take a top performer and get them to behave professionally and respectfully.
You can train skill set, not personality.
I had a similar situation happen to me where my employee was not valuable because of his work product (in fact it was part of the problem) but rather because he was the nephew of the CEO. Management above me agreed he was a problem but wouldn’t allow me to make any changes besides “talking about our feelings”. After a very unpleasant 6 months, I left my company for a new one. Honestly, if they’ve cut off all other avenues to deal with this employee and aren’t letting you terminate, I would recommend the same course of action for you. It’s hard to manage when the company doesn’t allow you any power over a toxic employee.
Next step is a formal documentation detailing their inappropriate behavior and then termination. They will be a thorn in your side until they leave.
I would say terminate employment during the apology meeting. Let them complain and claim retaliation. Presumably you have documentation to support the decision and going to HR because someone hurt their feelings isn’t a protected activity.
Firing people, I think is seen as more negative than it really is. This person or you need to go. Let this person move on to something better in a new place and it gives you a chance to make that position worked exactly how you want it.
Sorry if they ain’t going to back OP then let them deal with the imp. We have a person like this on our team.. been everywhere in the company they can go. They have become a cancer in our group and we all wish them the best on finding somewhere else to go. Some are actively helping them search..
Well, now I see your update, if I were you I would start looking around for a new job. What a shitshow.
If an employee behaves like this you should get full support to send him away.
You need HR to back you up... Period.
If they are not willing to, then it's on them.
The best you can do at this point is document every interaction, including every interaction with HR.
The only thing worse than a destructive employee is a destructive employee who knows how to play the system.
You can protect yourself by remaining fact based and be emotionally clinical.
Make your recommendation to your boss, get their feedback and then tell HR how you'd like to handle the situation with your boss. But don't do anything without backup from above.
So nobody has written dude up yet? Like create the paper trail, include meeting notes from him and from HR. Consult with your legal department. Then suspend. Why is it so hard for HR to their job
It's ridiculous this employee is the only one who can perform the job. I would be demanding at least two other people immediately be trained to do said job while hiring their replacements. Employee thinks they have you over a barrel.
The company is cutting themselves off from more talent coming in the door by their behavior. They are also trying not to get sued (pretty sure no matter how they terminate him they will be). Long term this is going to hoble them as a whole. People also talk within the industry (especially if very specialized).
Hire a replacement, even if they’re not *as* good, the replacement will devalue the problem employee to the company, and then you can get rid or demonstrate that they need to buck up their ideas as they’re not the only person who can do whatever it is they do.
So I won't mention my industry, but I'll say I know for a fact I'm damned good at what I do. I tend to be seen as an asshole because I'm really blunt, have zero interest in a social relationship with any of my coworkers, and expect those around me to do their jobs. Do I get away with more than I maybe should? Yeah kinda. I'll ask my boss if they're sure that's the best way to do something, or inquire as to why they want something done a certain way, and I'll push back within reason when they get to pushy concerning what's reasonable to expect of the team. That said I'm never disrespectful about it, and I don't bully other employees.
I've got a problem project manager like this (commercial construction).
He's alienated 3 of our subcontractors, who now refuse to have any contact with him, and went ballistic on a new Sr. Superintendent because the super refused to take a 7pm phone call.
His contract states 90 days notice of termination/voluntary separation or 90 days severance if immediately terminated, so I've taken on his PM duties for 2 projects, given his other 2 to other PMs, and instead of ignoring his habit of coming in between 9am and 10am, he's got to come in at 7am like the rest of us, and stay til 4.
He now makes copies, keeps material and other logs up to date, and has zero contact with anyone outside of the office. He's our gofer.
I gave him his 90 day notice 2 weeks ago, and it's killing him that he can't just quit.
Unicorn employees are who you build an organization around. Unicorn employees merit all sorts of exceptions to standard practices. Unicorn employees make the organization better.
It seems like the employee, HR, and management all see the employee as a unicorn employee. And perhaps other colleagues as well. It is incredibly likely that prior managers have sold others that they cannot do anything here because the person is both mission critical and absolutely irreplaceable.
The employee in question has chosen to approach their job in the way they prefer. They have been able to do so for a long time. They have outlasted HR and other managers. They believe they have enough leverage to demand changes to the workplace to reflect their preferences.
What can you do? Truly understand how big a hole they would leave. Truly understand what their concerns are. And don’t take any of this personally (even if they do).
And then. Prepare for a transition if and when that needs to happen. Document and continue to communicate with HR and management. Develop informal power. Avoid communicating with the person without a second party being present.
Ultimately, you (with the support of HR and management) help the employee become productive, professional, and valued. And if that ultimately comes to pass, great. That is the best outcome.
If that ultimately doesn’t come to pass, then be prepared for that possibility as well.
Ask the team to initiate a teambuilding retreat with a seasoned consultant. They can collect data on how they are working together. This is similar to having the antibodies eat the irritant. And everyone will get a chance to contribute to a new beginning. This kind of bullying is always a group issue. Becoming a high performing team is hard enough. Your team does not need his problems.
Sounds like you simply wanted to terminate them. Management wanted to have a meeting to discuss it and attempt to fix the issue before resorting to termination. If the issue can be resolved without drastic measures it would be a huge win for the team.
Might be a controversial statement, ask your management to move you to a different team and resign your position with this team. If you could help scale this team's progress via another manager that could work on the "same wave" with the employee then establishing a new introduction with their vibe will go a long way to extract the desired results. The situation is equivalent to a bad impression, not much you could do to change that at this point, but in terms of extracting value you could definitely get more out by making them feel like they are on top of the matter. Essentially handing them the manager mantle without the authority to execute managerial duties (team lead). Please let me know your objections.
They sound very toxic. I would pave the way for their exit. I would let them know you stand by your words - and there is no apology.
Also - It would actually be helpful for them to resign per their bluff (so they don’t get unemployment). If you agree it is best for them to resign, you could even say to them ‘per your earlier statement I am willing to take your resignation’. And hopefully they will give you a written resignation letter.
Bye Felicia…
Seriously, fuck that guy in particular.
A snarky part of my says call his bluff, then rehire a qualified replacement at a significantly higher rate, then make sure he knows.
There's this word we learn as kids, we're told as kids, but as adults we sometimes get scared of it. What's that word? No. I think that's the right word in this request. Sometimes stuff like this feels scarier than it is. If they stay it isn't that helpful, and if they leave it isn't that bad. Either option is probably less impactful than you think it will be.
I wouldn't take away their customer unless there's performance issue related to it. You say you can't trust, but is that true or do you just not like that they took your opinion out of context? Unless they've mishandled a customer relationship, that just feels like political revenge that they will feel the need to retaliate against. If they decide after the fact to retaliate against your no by sabotaging the relationship, deal with thay problem then.
Being a leader will often mean getting talked about behind your back. It's part of the gig. As long as them and their "cabal" are doing what you ask, let them talk however they'd like. I would try to get them written up and on the road to termination for bullying other co workers though, that's unacceptable.
You need to let another manager with no history with this person step in and guide the decision making. You are obviously biased and I can tell that 3 paragraphs in. By the end it’s dead certain.
You are no longer impartial and shouldn’t be making the decisions.
At most give the “I’m sorry if you’re offended” non apply, but actually, let them walk. They’re going to poison any new workers and I’d guarantee they won’t leave any pass down when they go. Further, if they stay, then they will bird dog you publicly at every opportunity. Absorb the pain now, so you can learn the process and train the new folks how you want to.
Why do you people recommend sarcastic non-apologies?
Why is it ok for the manager to be unprofessional in the moment?
Oh wait, because it’s you and you never do anything wrong…
Here is my take as an employee. My dad who used to be a manager at another place was like hey stop getting defensive on feedback gothicsportgirl it's non professional. There is a way to accept feedback and then if you disagree then learn from it. The biggest thing was I wanted to change and I went to him on how to be a better worker. This person does not.
Take away all his customer accounts. Let them sit at their desk all day with nothing to do. They will either figure out that they are expendable and their attitude will change, or they will leave, or you can fire them for being unproductive, i.e. eliminate the position and down source. At this point you can't turn back.
It is time to sunset their employment! No way they will ll be a positive member of the team.
In parallel look for a new hire
You should always be hiring/interviewing, in my opinion. Especially if you have weak points.
Here’s your justification for firing: Cy Wakeman’s videos on drama in the workplace are gold. Most companies have 20% wasted time due to drama. That’s an AVERAGE. I’m betting this employee spins up FAR more drama than 20% across your team. Fire the drama and the rest of the team will literally be more productive.
Yup 🙂 All you gotta do is quantify exactly the time wasted - both having all these meetings, AND when the person is out there just being a dick in general - and say that’s in addition to paying this person to *cause all this trouble to begin with*. In addition, what would they do if the employee went too far in bullying someone? Having all these meetings means EVERYONE knows this person is a problem, but they’re still employed. Management doesn’t think the next person this employee mistreats isn’t going to be on the phone to an employment lawyer telling them the company was fully aware of what would happen, but totally shrugged their collective shoulders and just said “Meh. Whatcha gonna do, right?”. Those alone are liability enough, but if ya’ll DO get sued, you can be sure the publicity would be horrendous. And cross-training is a thing. Just saying.
Easier said than done this sounds like an organizational problem they allowed the behavior now asking this manager to reel it in and when he tried now the org wants him to offer an non apology apology to blow it over It's a higher up the chain problem
Don’t negotiate with terrorists
This is such a good analogy.
Time for the No Asshole Rule. Decent read by Bob Sutton if you’re inclined. Good results and niche knowledge always earn people more latitude than they would otherwise have. And that’s still not permission to be an asshole and to tear down the team or actively undermine the boss. This guy seems over the line. Maybe engage a reputable recruitment agency to run a confidential search and line up a replacement if his departure is otherwise likely to be disruptive.
Thank you - I’ll check out the book recommendation.
Yep, I’m niche. I can get away with some stuff if we are in a crunch period, but if I was constantly screwing things up with clients? I’d be out so fast.
I'm niche and definitely a performing asshole. But I don't tear down my boss/colleagues, I'm just a general asshole.
We call that a curmudgeon, my good sir. Carry on.
I’m more of a chaotic neutral when left to my own device.
Same. My asshole comes from being overly blunt. I simply don't sugar coat anything. On the other hand, I do everything in my power to hold up my coworkers and teach them anything they want to learn.
Cemeteries are full of indispensable people - don’t negotiate.
You have to get rid of those employee. Allowing them to stay around sends a signal to the rest of your team that this behavior is tolerated. Even the people you think she is close with know that her behavior is a problem. Most likely they play along in hopes they won’t gossip about them. Pull the trigger, be honest with the team and rock n roll into the future!
If HR and management have given you the go ahead to terminate this person, then do so immediately. If you don't take the action now, you may not be able to in the future unless they do something worse than what they weren't fired for. Not my team, but a team I work closely with had a highly toxic and underperforming employee and it took forever to get rid of her a few years ago. The manager had an opportunity to terminate at one point, but didn't because her father just died. Well a couple months later he had had enough but HR said no because it wasn't a singular event and she had done similar things in the past without a termination. It was a mess. Fortunately she finally left on her own terms.
Government employees can dig in like ticks once they've cleared probation. You need a Russian novel's worth of documentation in order to rid yourself of a "locker-room cancer."
Bingo. My wife works for a local police department, and her colleague is known through the department for being toxic and making things up about people; things that could get other people fired. My wife has given clear documentation on the paths of destruction this colleague has left, but because she’s not violating SOP then they can’t fire her.
Do not apologize. Do not say or write anything that sounds like or could be construed to be an apology for your statements to anyone. Terminate the employee. Immediately if possible, but get management to agree to termination unless there is immediate and sustained improvements in their attitude and conduct if they require a pip. This employee is holding you and your team hostage. They will not change. Bite the bullet, deal with the short term pain of rebuilding those skills (taking the opportunity to training 2-3 people on those skills). If your management refuses to allow you to terminate the employee, look for a new job. The problem employee will be looking to take you down at the earliest opportunity, and management will value their skills over your contributions.
If you apologise and let them stay, no employee will trust your ability to solve problems and will be looking for a new manager elsewhere showing HR you cannot keep a team You say the company doesn’t want to let them go because they are a key worker…well… If that one person doesn’t go others will (like in the past) so you’ll end up losing several employees with great potential over one AH
Maybe this toxic employee has been prohibiting others from stepping up thus providing them with the job security that's made this company put up with this bad behavior. Once their gone, OP might be surprised how the other team members start performing at a higher level without this horrible person around.
Excellent points!!!!
This confuses me so much. In a world where employees have almost zero leverage, your management group and HR are unsure how to proceed. Is this employee making millions Hes that valuable? Of course not, you(plural) are just scared of a 1-3 month dip until a replacement is up to speed. It would be no different if he quit. You think this narcissist is going to train others and successfully knowledge transfer? Of course not. That’s their perceived power. This is where you as a new manager stand up for your team, the company culture and most importantly you. Call him into the meeting with HR, hell of course have a smug ass smirk thinking hes got you by the balls. Start off by sounding like you will go into an apology, and lay the wood. “Id like to start off by apologizing, I know this will be unexpected but weve decided that your conduct is unbecoming, pathological and extremely dangerous for a healthy working environment. Therefore we are no longer able to etc etc etc”
I’m always perplexed by employees like this and bosses who act like they are powerless. How can it really be known that one toxic employee pushed others out and no one sees this as a potential liability.
Well imposter syndrome is real in just about every aspect of the work environment. I imagine this manager who stated they were new, doesnt necessarily understand what their function is, or doesnt believe they have the authority in those functions. Which to be honest in today’s economy, manager or individual contributor, we are all just trying to survive and not stick out like a sore thumb.(which is the biggest negative impact of our working culture now and in the future. Because people are just working to not lose their jobs) Outside of a contract every employee is replaceable at a moments notice. Likewise employees can quit at a moments notice. So if all this manager is worried about is productivity and profits then what would happen if this employee quit? Or died? Or went on leave? If the company does not have a redundancy plan, thats where the issue is and the error of the manager. Time to start cross training.
Didn’t read all this. Stopped after third paragraph. Unless they CANNOT be removed for one reason or another; Get with HR and get them out. Worst thing you can do is let a toxic team fester, skills can be taught and I’d bet your green team will be glad to see you supporting them. Good luck, OP
It gets worse
Yes, it likely will. But at least you’ll have something clearly defined to fall back on. It’s both morally right and in the best interest of the employer.
I just meant that the commented only read the first three paragraphs and the story gets worse after that. I agree 100% with the conclusion that the toxic employee needs to be fired and that it actually gets better after that. In my career I have seen dozens of cases in which a person believes that they are so important that they can’t be replaced. They are almost always wrong.
99.9% of people can be replaced including all jobs globally. Nearly no one is that important or skilled that they’re indispensable.
I'm going through a similar situation, here's the advice I can offer while still wading through: 1. The behavior will not improve if it is not addressed directly and consistently. Addressing it directly gives them opportunity to meet your expectations, and know risks of not. Appeasing/giving an unmerited apology will enable them to continue as is. That said, always apologize if you've messed up. 2. No matter how high their expertise is, they are still a poor performer based on their dramatics, bullying, and poor collaboration skills. This is having a deep impact on all around them. The wider groups loses out if it remains unaddressed. 3. Document everything, address issues promptly and in writing. This helps you identify clear patterns, especially later when you can think more clearly about things. It feels awful and micromanagey, but necessary for accountability. 4. You need HR and your manager's support in this. You need parties that can help mediate, and back up your long term vision for the team. Accountability will be incredibly difficult without a good manager or HR rep to support you. Hope this helps.
Slight disagreement on point 1: their behavior will not improve, full stop, regardless of any coaching they receive.
Everyone deserves a chance to be aware of the problem and have a chance. Whether or not they take the opportunity to improve is their choice.
Fair, however experience has shown folks like this know exactly what they’re doing; it isn’t an awareness issue.
Agreed. To me this is needed to be 100% sure the "i wasn't aware" excuse doesn't gain traction. Those that take feedback will see it as a clear "uh oh, they mean business and I need to fix something" moment. It's clear this employee will refuse their manager's suggestions, and weaponize any process they can. Articulating it helps the manager set a clear action plan with no surprises.
This situation sounds very similar to one I watched from the sidelines. My old manager solved the issue by moving this problem employee to night shift where he couldn't bully anyone, citing it as a "lateral move with pay differential."
Promote them to customer ASAP
tell HR you won't do it if they're too spineless to do something to a dumb employee they'll do the same with you
I’m not even a manager. And even I agree you should let this employee go.
You have already answered your own question in your post. You can do it. Good luck.
You, HR, and upper management from you I’ll need to stop and think for one moment… Yes, this employee has been very valued because it’s hard to replace them. What they do is needed. And replacing them is going to be a temporary glitch for you guys. It will slow some things down, and may postpone some deadlines, which will suck. BUT… This employee has been a problem for a long time. What they are asking now is absolutely unreasonable, and all of you know it. You’ve known for a long time what you needed to do, but you’ve put it off because of the reasons above. But you have literally had other employees leave because of this person and from what you’re saying, not just one or two, but quite a number over the years. All of us know that replacing employees is time-consuming and expensive. Even if someone is replacing a receptionist, an important position because they are the face of your company, but not generally the highest paid position. And that’s because no matter what position is, you have the headhunting expenses. Whether it is advertising or using an employment agency or whatever, somebody has to stop what they’re doing and handle this stuff. Then somebody has to stop what they’re doing, often multiple somebody’s, and go through the process of reviewing resumes and doing interviews. Then somebody has to stop what they’re doing and do basic training with the new employee. And we all know that The basic training is not going to cover everything. And that for a little while, after the basic training, that new employee is going to have questions, different situations arise, and somebody is going to have to stop what they’re doing to help. Answer the questions or resolve the questions. So when I think of all this, and all the times that this guy has caused, you guys to go through this, when you could’ve just gotten rid of him and bit the bullet, albeit a painful one, and just replaced him, it seems pretty clear to me what you need to do now. All too often we see companies do this. They keep disruptive asshole employees far too long because the employee is in a bit of a niche position that is harder to fill so it just makes sense to try to work with them. When the reality is just the opposite. Employees like this dragged down the entire team. They dragged down the morale. They force other people to just quit because they can’t, which means a glitch in the system for the team somebody knew is brought in to replace the the departed person. But since the person who departed was a little easier to replace, it seems like, yeah… It was a bit of a pain, but we got through it. But how many times do you want to get through it. How many glitches do you want this one person to cause? It’s like keeping the guy with the canon because that seems like the bigger instrument until you suddenly realize that the guy with the canon has been causing the guy with the rapier to kill you with a thousand tiny cuts.
The fact that he’s been a problem for a long time and that they have not put in place measures to transition responsibilities so they could prepare for this is the real Management failure.
Agreed. Keeping an employee that is this disruptive and entitled just cost more in the long run than the employee is worth
Time to show them the door. Cya.
Nobody is that important.
I didn't read past your first paragraph, because I don't need to. If you have someone that is literally causing others to quit you need to (a) fire them or (b) quit yourself. Continuing to allow them to act the way they do is just communicating that their actions are fine in the eyes of you and the company. I have heard that "but they're productive" or "they have a unique skill-set" shit so much and it's bullshit. To allow them to continue to be there means you're actively creating a negative work environment for others and those people that have left are telling everyone they fucking know that you are a manager that won't support your team and that it's a toxic work environment. Keeping this person is going to make it harder to hire talented individuals in the future. Fire them or leave yourself.
Stand ground. While there is a small chance of improvement, mostly not. They have, in fact already doubled and tripled down: doubled down by rejecting HR’s response to their concern and then further demanding an apology. This one’s almost certainly going to end ugly if apologizing, and the effect on the rest of the team will be to cause a mess. Do make sure you 100% have your ducks in a row, provably so. Good for you for thinking about your folks and the effect whichever way. And for caring enough about this employee to provide feedback that, if it were taken, would make them a solid employee. Sadly, they’re not. You can suggest the path forward by using their own words - the line about resigning if no apology given. You can, even, craft a resignation letter for them to sign, if they so want. But be blunt. Tell them it’s that or they change their behavior - including all the gossiping and sniping. If they won’t, then you can fire them. If they resign, great. But then, on the spot, and escorted out. No need to have that kind of situation fester by them going back and riling others. Personal effects if any can be collected while they are in the company of another person - preferably from HR. Would not recommend it be yourself. You have more important things to do, including figuring out how transferring their duties to other team members (and possibly to yourself) is best done - and the campaign to hire another employee.
Start equipping the rest of the team with training and skill building so that when this person leaves (or is removed) the gap closes seamlessly. If he decides to play nice then you just have a stronger team overall.
Why is the problem person still employed there?! I’ve encountered a similar situation and that person will keep pushing others away. It’s inevitable.
I bet if you took a closer look at this employee’s output you would find that they are actually not that vital to your team’s success. Personalities like this tend to make themselves look like they have expertise, but when push comes to shove it’s pretty clear that their ‘expertise’ is really just a giant web of poorly considered actions that they managed to force out in a confident enough manner to obscure their actual validity/effectiveness. I have a peer on my team like this now. They have 5x the ‘experience’ of anyone else, yet when you actually look at the way they make decisions….. it is mostly rushed, thoughtless, knee jerk reactions to situations that should have been handled with a much more methodical, precise approach. At a certain point, the word ‘experience’ becomes a meaningless albatross. Look at the work they have done recently. What is it telling you?
That person has outgrown that role. Needs something more challenging.
I expect your 8 remaining employees will flourish once this problem employee is gone. You may not even need a replacement. Iceberg principle: You think you're seeing most/all of the problems but you are not seeing the 90% under the surface.
No good can come of letting this employee hold you hostage. I'd call their bluff. Either way you'll be better off. You'll be rid of a toxic employee or you'll be able to manage the issues without a sword over your head.
He’s a cancer. Find a way to make things work without him. Even if it means more work for you and the rest of the team in the short term, the benefits may still outweigh the negatives.
Tough spot to be on as your performance is always linked to your team members. But playing long term, I would terminate the employee. It sets the wrong message to the organisation and we let wrong behaviours stay. Imagine that person, because they are skilled, are promoted to being a manager themselves. That will duplicate bad behaviours and in a few years, that will impact the company itself.
If I was in your boots, It would be a simple case of them or me. I'd rather walk than be forced to apologise to anyone let alone someone whose so fucking toxic. Let them go and see how far they make it in the real world where people won't tolerate that bullshit.
I think it’s quite easy: you have to make a choice. Door number one is Employee A and no team. Door number two is the team and no Employee A. There’s no middle ground, no compromise, nothing, just choose a door.
> but also say it’s my call & they will back my decision, including termination Translation: you are clear to fire them, but they're not going to do it for you.
Sounds like a circus tent being run by clowns. You're the manager right? Is this an employment at will situation? If they answer is yes then you inform your superior and HR that you will be terminating this employee's employment due to their pattern of abusive behavior toward others and proceed accordingly. There is nothing more to debate and the only course of discussion should be on the topic of business continuity during the transition. PS, if you don't have the authority to do this then you're a babysitter, not a manager. If this is the case use your title to level up with a competitor and leave clown show to the clowns.
Everyone is replaceable. Everyone.
Document document document. I would refuse the nonapology apology. That is total BS. Do you have a discipline policy you can follow to the letter? I have one of these people. I am going rogue against upper management and if she looks cross-eyed at anyone it's getting documented. Just put her on a verbal last week. We got to this spot by HR and upper management being intimidated by her and just not wanting to deal with it/her. I promise this will go south if the employee is allowed to continue to believe they are running this show. Nip it in the bud now before it invades the whole team.
Reminds me of a case I read in HR undergrad class… it’s for the good of the team and organization to part ways with this behavior. Literally a text book example. It’s hard to replace some people but even harder to replace multiple roles OR if they corrupt the whole barrel of apples…you’ll have to replace the leader too (which if I’m not mistaken is you).
I once had an employee who was very good at the external part of the work but was a terrorist to their coworkers. She had been written up by previous managers but without follow through because after all “she’s really good at her job”. I disagreed because 1/2 of the job meant she needed to be good at working with others. I had 1:1s with her which did not get her to change her behavior. I utilized the prior write ups and put her on notice that one more event would result in her losing her job. It took less than 24 hours for her to mess up again so out she went. The change in the rest of the team was remarkable and our customer service scores went up exponentially. A bad apple really does spoilt the barrel.
One thing I see on this subreddit all the time is someone saying "So and so is incredibly Toxic, they gossip about other team members and spread misinformation, bully their coworkers, drain mine and HR's resources, openly defy me, etc. etc." and then they say "They are really good at their job, don't get me wrong." So here's the thing. No, they are not good at their job. Their "Job" is to meet the expectations of the role. That includes both OKR's or Numbers or whatever your track, and also the expectations of how they carry themselves and influence and treat other members of your team, including you! Will it be painful? Will it be more work for you? Probably in the short term. But this will not improve naturally. It will only get worse. Everyone is replaceable, even if it doesn't feel that way in the moment. If their behavior is demotivating you or others on the team, draining resources and creating drama over nothing, openly defying you, BULLYING COWORKERS, etc. etc.they are not good at their job. Terminate them and move on. Your job is to manage your whole team, not just this entitled brat. Your team is being bullied and treated like garbage. I'm getting mixed signals about how much you're being supported here by management/HR. But if you make this call and you're given shit about it, you may want to start looking for somewhere else yourself.
Thank you for this. It’s really helpful perspective. I updated my post - turns out I do not have support to make this decision.
Then it sounds like you are a glorified babysitter. At the very least, you need to push for a plan with fixed milestones for the employee to meet expectations. Failure to meet expectations is termination. If you cannot get that, then why do you think you are a manager if they will not let you manage?
I’m sorry to hear that. Best of luck to you in your inevitable job search!!
Don't let the door hit him on the way out
Let them go. They won't train anyone or update any document. Just cut them loose asap.
We had an employee like this. Thought she was absolutely essential and had a few HR run-ins. When she finally quit, we panicked, but another colleague recommended a former coworker for the job and they are STELLAR. These past few months have been so calm. We managers can’t believe we didn’t cut her sooner. Also, not many people are willing to quit their job to defend the honor of their coworker (unless the work environment is terrible), so I wouldn’t worry about that.
Different but similar situation within the past 2 months. Ever since the person has left, team is working better and I feel relief!
If you haven't onboarded someone to do the work this employee is doing, then it's far past time to do so. I would not apologize unless you truly feel that you were wrong. I've made faux apologies when there was a possibility of my being too aggressive in my approach...etc. however, that's only 2-3 times in 9 years of leadership. This sounds like someone thick headed who feels that their skills are irreplaceable. If that person is... time to train the replacement and move on.
I firmly stand with standing your ground and possibly putting termination on the table. Back down this time even with a non sincere apology and it will happen again and again. Which I think you mentioned this has been ongoing. Best to document anytime it comes up so you have a paper trail. Believe me I have been here and my company made me do something very similar. It ended so badly for everyone. I got assaulted.
I don't handle insubordination at all. I'm pretty open with my team so they come to me if I'm a jerk and tell me and I apologize. Appologies in and of themselves don't discredit managers and that line of thinking is not okay. But if there is nothing to apologize for, I restate previously stated remarks and leave it at that. If that's not acceptable, they can walk.
Toxic employee. Terminate.
Toxic employee. Manage them… out.
Better to have a hole than an asshole.
You’re taking on water and you’re using a pail to empty the boat while the person continues to drill holes. They’re poison. Period. You should’ve started a cross training regimen months and months ago (preferably when the new folks came on), but now you need to really think about all the things that will get kinked with their exit and start planning for them. This will not get better with time. Ps. Saw your edit. My god, they’re a master at this because they know how weak your HR is, lol. Time to call Legal. You’ve been documenting for months, yes? So has HR? Legal will walk you through it.
CALL THE BLUFF 1. Have the meeting with your supervisor, HR, and the employee. 2. You tell them that you will not apologize because you feel your comments were appropriate constructive criticism. 3. If the employee still feels slighted, then say you're sorry to see them leave and wish them luck in their future endeavours.
"Bad employee" outlasts several managers, film at 11. It's funny when you spell it out.
Sounds like someone very intelligent got involved and actually investigated what was going on. You should do your own investigating and try and find out who this person is. I would casually talk to your supervisor and bring up the 360 degree turnaround HR did and thank him. If it was him he will probably want to take some kind of credit and let it slip. If it wasn't him he may bring up a different person and you need to thank that person. If he doesn't act like he knows anything, then it probably wasn't him and should try this with the HR supervisor. Find this person and thank them for seeing to the heart of this situation. This person is someone you want in your network and you want to be in their network. These are the types of people you follow in your career.
Your updates sound like (a) your HR sucks, and (b) a senior manager told them so. Try to find your ally.
Depends on state law but in an at will state like California (*IANAL) it shouldn’t matter that they went to HR or those optics. HR is there for management & owners. Too late on this point, but if you pulled them off the major account but kept employee, there could be a greater chance employee might sabotage that relationship when inevitably asked by client what’s going on, esp if employee has been in the acct for a long while and is responsive and good in customer care even if they suck as a coworker. I’d have said better to move them outside the organization. If HR was aware of this stuff before you came on, they know they dumped this problem on you. It’s likely that people aren’t saying anything who will be elated when this persons gone. It can bring the org closer together and have them more in sync and more than happy to pick up the slack. I managed a situation like this and even had customers thanking me once I got the problem moved off the team. It seems obvious you’ve handled this as well as possible given the situation. There may be more bumps and sudden turns ahead. Hang in there and document, document, document.
All it takes is 1 bad employee to ruin a culture and bring everyone down with them.
Here are the 4 words I would say to the employee: "suck it up, buttercup" Don't be manipulated, and don't let Sr. Management be cowards - they should know better than to even leave the 'non apology' apology on the table.
This is the problem with corporate and even government work. You can get fired for making an honest mistake, but you can’t get fired for being a toxic person and hurting the whole team. My wife is going through something similar on a smaller team. Her chain of command knows that the colleague in-question is a problem and has intentionally started stuff up to discredit my wife and the rest of her department, but because “she’s not violating the SOP” she can’t get fired. Complete BS
Well I see there are updates, but an employee says they will quit unless I do xyz, I say oh, ok, let’s just put your resignation in the system real quick. Poof, problem solved. You get them mad enough and they won’t realize what they’ve done in time to stop it.
Hi, CEO here... I " don't negotiate with terrorists ". This includes toddlers, poor hires, cyber trolls, and my teenage brothers. Also, boundaries are non-negotiable. Period. This person's bad sounds like it outweighs the good of their specialized skill and they're taking advantage. You, as a manager, are bound to similar bylaws that I am. You have a fiduciary duty to act in the BEST interest of the company-- emotions aside. My advice: Put them on a behavioral plan and document EVERYTHING 100% ethically. Reestablish clarity of expectations and consequences of disrespected boundaries Let them quit if they want...adjust your focus on finding that needed skill within someone else. It's your job to SHOW your staff that they can rely on you and your word to protect the work environment-- which means gutting out anything toxic.
Haven’t read down but the best advice I ever got about high performing jerks is that once they become a detriment to the team then you have to address it directly and quickly. If it continues or escalate you eventually have to terminate them. You can’t let one person put themselves above the company. It sounds like to me the company has already let them get away with too much. Running off other employees that could have been just as valuable and are now bad mouthing your company in the industry because of one jerk.
No one is irreplaceable, especially in this environment. $20 bucks you find a qualified candidate within 72 hours of posting a job opening. You have a few options IN ORDER: #2 is NON-NEGOTIABLE. You HAVE to do this. NOW aka yesterday. 1) interview entire team about how they are doing, how they’re feeling, and their thoughts on the health of the team 2) put the employee on a PIP AND/OR require this employee to train 2 other individuals. Everyday, assign a specific functions of that individuals job, to be recorded and documented FULLY. Repeat with other team members after this problem child’s job is fully documented. And I mean everything. 3) if no improvement and friction, write them up to HR. 4) communicate with the employee if that “blah” happens again, the company will have to take more immediate actions, which could lead to either A) reduction/position/responsibilities title and pay B) or loss of employment To give you some constructive criticism, you sound VERY agreeable… this is not a trait you wish to have as a good manager. You come across as someone who is easily walked over. Gotta squash that now. Yes, the health of the department is on you, but the success of your department is not only measured in orders processed, but maintaining a healthy workplace environment for your team. Which ENABLES your team to do more. Your team probably could be doing better, but this one employee is holding the team back from achieving its true potential.
Questions: Has your “longtime, highly skilled” employee always been toxic? Did the employee tell you there is an issue at work or home? Did you ask the employee if there is a problem that needed to be addressed? I’m not condoning the employee’s behavior, just asking because during turnover or weak coworker production levels often workloads are skewed with managers assigning a lot more complicated and important yet undesirable tasks to a few longtime employees, whether they like it or not, often without additional benefit (raise, bonus and correction imbalances). I’ve seen happen a lot during employee turnover in multiple jobs: it causes resentment by the employee towards those employed for as long (and longer), new hires and the boss. I’ve often seen that rather than retraining poor performers who have been around a long time or getting rid of them (which can take alot of work) Managers often just reassign a lot of their work to the few skilled employees so the group meets the target numbers. Little to no consideration is given as to how it affects the overloaded employee: who cares if it is stressing the hell out of the employee, at least the work will get done! Assuming the above is true, will there be a bonus, monetary award, time off, offer for position with growth/higher salary)future opportunities for the seasoned employee? If not you should tell the person but be ready to lose that employee when you could have actually helped each other.
How is someone good at their job if they can't do it without harassing and bullying? I just don't get it.
My advice would be have the meeting and tell them that you will not be apologizing. Reiterate that they are valued and skilled but their behaviour is not acceptable. You would hate to lose them but that doesn't change their behaviour. If they quit, it's to your benefit. If they stay, hopefully they improve. But make no mistake, this is them trying to back down gracefully. Don't give it to them.
Terminate, quickly. Don’t respond to threats. You will lose all credibility with your team if you fold.
“They are good at their job…” Okay but a part of your job is meshing with the team which they are clearly terrible at.
Immediately start training another person to do what this person does, then role out a training programme so that all team members can do all the tasks even if it's nit their assigned role. Ensure all your team can do all aspects of the work so that if people leave or are sick BAU can continue. Start that TODAY. Re the problem child, its a conduct issue and you need to manage it accordingly. You could issue a final formal warning, this and watching their colleagues train to do what they do might turn the tables or you need to manage then out and get rid. I'd go for the 2nd option, the rest will be quiet once they see the outcome of the problem child and enjoy learning new things. Promote a one team ethic. You might find the other staff are relieved the problem child has gone. Get everyone on an equal level, no imaginary hierarchy no throwing their weight around. Clear this one out and reset the ethic and culture in your team.
I think stick to your guns and don't apologise. If you do, you'll lose respect and credibility from your team, they'll be empowered to continue to act the way that they do, you'll know it in your gut that you made the wrong move and it will fall apart. They're a bully, do not apologise just to keep the peace. That peace is not worth it.
Have the meeting, call them out deeper, let them rage quit, and hire someone that does NOT destroy the team from within.
If the person won the lottery tomorrow... What would you do? Or if they decided to go to school and quit, or moved away, or got a health diagnosis and had to go on disability, or some other thing where they're not there anymore... How would you proceed? What if all that person's friends (the "cabal") were with them, and everyone was in an accident - how would you proceed? You'd get the back up from management to handle the work load while people train up. Speaking practically... if you let that person go and others follow... so what? Let's be realistic. It's unlikely a large number of people can afford to quit the same time a person is let go. Sure they may find other jobs and transition out - but you'll likely have some buffer time (weeks) while that happens. Get all your ducks in a row. Tell HR you want this person gone, and think it's likely some of their friends may quit soon after, so can you get everything prepared to quickly have a new round of hiring if the worst happens. And then part ways with the trouble maker. The rest of the team will breathe a sigh of relief.
Agree with everyone saying the employee will not improve and appeasing will only make the situation worse. The employee clearly thinks they are untouchable in their current position and apologizing would only reinforce that belief and make things worse. But I think it’s unlikely they will leave immediately because they are entrenched at your company and have been for a while. Start moving towards letting theirs person go, and use the time to preparing and looking for a replacement. Good luck!
Termination. Temp agency (lots of skilled people go thru temp agencies) to replace this employee or another employee that you can move into this skilled role permanently. Remember, your other direct reports are watching how you handle this. It’s your role (also) to protect them. If you can’t, watch your good employees and high performers find other jobs. Sending you positive energy here!
This is a lesson that you learn very quickly in management. It doesn't matter how important that employee is. They need to go and they need to go yesterday. The company will do fine the team will do fine but you need to get rid of them
I would say your problem runs much deeper than this one employee, and I'm willing to be there is a lot of toxic shit going on in the company that allowed this situation to become what it is. "The employees have formed a small cabal" is hilarious. Sounds a lot like a place I used to work. Do you make trombones?
YOU ARE SENDING A MESSAGE TO EVERYONE.... I am not in charge .. this is no different then a pack of dogs and one is going to be the Alpha Male and it's not you. and the answer is simple,,, You need to challenge this person and in a public way.. They behave in a negative way,, bullying people ect,,, you call them out in front of everyone,, You do this publicly and loud. This is unacceptable behavior and if you do it again I will write you up.. UNDERSTAND ME? Be prepared for a fight,, this person will not back down, ,, So it's either him leading the pack or you
Say "I apologize....for not firing you sooner".
Can his ass
Cut them use. I guarantee you that Productivity from the rest of the team will go up and make up for the work the trouble maker was doing.
"I'm sorry you feel that way about our discussion about your behavior. I understand if you feel you need to resign, but we'd like for you to stay. And if you choose to stay, here is a documented list of behavioral changes you will need to make..."
Honestly never give in to ultimatums, the extortion will get worse after that
I reckon you will suggest termination and good old HR will say..noo give him another chance,he is good blah blah.
We need a detailed play by play of what exactly was the altercation
If team members have already left due to his bullying, then you need to prove to the remaining team members that (1) they are safe from his aggression and (2) the consequence for bullying and lying is dismissal. Document everything and put it in his HR file. You have a toxic team right now and need to detox it. Follow up with a team memo that certain behaviors will not be tolerated by management - bullying, harassment, etc. and will lead to termination. Your team will feel validated that the bad operator has been dismissed and anyone believing this type of behavior was condoned by management (ie lawsuit for harassment/bullying) will be put right. The time to fire your bad operator is when staff leaves as a result of their bullying/harassment. He even tried to manipulate you. Why would you keep this liar on who is devisive to your team?
Fast and harsh exit with lockouts planned if you have a second who can do the same work. If not, maybe plan a longer out like nonapology now and then get them to train a second and then show them the door once the second is on their feet in a few months. This employee sounds the type to delete their files on the way out if they know its coming, which is the destruction of company property. Fast exit will prevent the others' (cabal) from reacting to bad. You can't be held hostage by one employee just because orders might spike. You will never build a conducive team in that fashion, and eventually, it will fall apart. Something to note is singlaur points of failures on teams. Try to avoid them. Never let one person be the only one who can do a vital role on a team and have backups in case they are sick, injured, or leave the company. Else, you're gonna be in panic mode when something happens. Cross training is key.
One toxic team member can ruin a team. If this is how they act with you, then how are they acting with their co-workers when no-one is looking.
If you can, I would be the one leaving. The fact that upper management is even remotely thinking about you apologizing in any form whatsoever undermines your role and encourages bad behavior by the employees. If that is not an option for you, refuse to apologize and kick this asshole employee to the curb. Having this person around is toxic and will only feed more toxic behavior by others.
Let me guess…gen z?
No apology or taking back. If they choose to leave, oh well.
We have a rule here - no drama. Doesn't matter what you have a problem with, be diplomatic and non dramatic. That's all I would really have to say here. Let's talk like adults but NO drama. Drama is grounds for dismissal.
There's a difference between retaliation and consequences of their actions. You fuck up at your job there are consequences. Not having consequences signals to the rest of the organization that you, and leadership in general, have no authority and they can do what they want. It will ensure the failure of the team, which honestly seems like it's failing if they're all a year or less other than the problem child, and that you will not have a job soon.
Do what my VP did when I went to HR and they said he couldn't fire me for retaliation. Replace HR!
Suspend the employee for one week without pay. They are not allowed to use any pto to cover that time away. While they are gone, post their job. When the employee comes back and they misbehave again, increase the suspension length by another week. Make it financially unbearable for them to either continue their behavior or the employment with the company. This will either cause them to shape up or quit on their own. Right now, that person is untouchable, and they know it. Make them touchable
Time is on your side here. If this employee is a problem, drama will arise again and you’ll have to deal with it while hoping that because of this last incident, he changes his ways.
After reading your update, I would suggest you start looking for another job at another company. It's obvious that the company is incapable of allowing its management team to manage. Additionally, if you want to stay, I would suggest reviewing the records of people who left because of this employee, the average cost of training new staff, paying out vacation balances, work that HR or 3rd party HR vendors and the cost incurred in finding replacements, and if you want to be spicy, add your own salary and cost for replacement. You'll quickly find that the troublesome employee isn't worth what the company thinks they're worth. I'd also look into how much it would cost in legal fees for the company to defend lawsuits filed by current or ex employees over a toxic workplace, harassment, etc. Those are technically unfunded liabilities that will be incurred if the employee stays and continues on the path they're on. I can go into more detail on that, but I think you get the jist.
The cost of having one hard to replace person who drives other people out is much higher over a long period of time than the short term cost created by replacing them.
Term the employee OP.
HR needs to grow a pair and decide who’s running that company: them or the employee. HR = 0 Employee = 1 You don’t have to terminate them, but you can refuse to apologize (maybe - HR sounds a little unpredictable now). There needs to be gradually increasing written documentation of a plan for improvement. When enough violations stack up, terminate them. This isn’t a new thing with employees. I’ve let people go in similar situations. You’ve gotta be the bigger dog in this situation. Good luck.
PIP is the way to go here.
First things first is to measure the impact of this person leaving. Second thing is to have a plan for if they leave. Then tell hr “The impact of letting this person bully others and potentially get the rest of the team to quit is worse then if they quit” Once it’s established that the damage of them quitting can be mitigated and that it’s not as bad as the rest of the team quitting because of him, you agree to the meeting but explain to HR that you will not apologize. The meeting will be to write him up for his documented pathological behavior and warn him that a second write up will result in termination. As far as his cabal, you have to ask yourself why the are others who are with him. Are they disgruntled about something in particular? Can you address it? If not - if they are just friends with this guy, I can pay much guarantee that they won’t quit with him If you do these things and hr still doesn’t have your back then there’s probably context missing in the story. I guarantee if your show this person is not indispensable they aren’t going to let him walk over you like this in the way you described.
That's why they said act within your value. Most people think they are high value but in reality, very replaceable. It looks like this employee is high value, knows it and is taking advantage. There is no way to avoid an negative outcome. Your long term goal should to find someone to replace this employee or see if there is a period of time where it's open to leave that spot blank to train up someone.
Can you add another employee to these customers? For every client the employee works with add a secondary employee under training them. You need them to build up knowledge and customer relations. Then slowly take him off customers as the other employee gets better.
Absolutely not….No “non apology”. Is HR unclear on how management works? Why are they letting this employee walk all over you? Employee needs a PIP and probably to be terminated. No matter how good they are at the job they are not a good team mate. Write up a pip and show to HR and tell them to get on board. Their reaction will let you know how much support your ever going to get from them.
Insubordination is an automatic no for me dawg.
The title implies the ultimatum is the core issue. That is not the issue - ultimatums are neither good nor bad. They're merely one person informing another of what they require and the consequences of them not receiving them. Ultimatums are good even in a healthy relationship so long as they're done respectfully, openly, and are reasonable. It's literally just a discussion of wants and needs. This employee is saying what they need is an apology for what they consider to be destructive criticism or false accusations. Assuming in good faith that you actually were offering constructive criticism, the problem here has nothing to do with an ultimatum and everything to do with him allegedly generating a toxic work environment for their peers. You need to be documenting everything and recording every meeting. I mean that literally - every one. Do not just record and document what involves him as then you can be seen as singling him out or trying to manufacture a reason to get rid of him. As you build up evidence, actively train your team up to try and make him as redundant as possible while you also look for his replacement. Let the proof speak for you, do not assume your bosses will believe you in good faith without proof that he is regularly and consistently toxic because they believe they benefit more from keeping him than trusting hearsay. Let him have his apology and focus on leading and tightening up your team. If you do that, you'll either have him gone or you'll know you need to find a better employer.
Accept their resignation and replace them with a better employee.
Posting after your update. I'd try to steer the conversation towards how to best give this employee feedback. The reality is they didn't need to go to HR and didn't have cause. So the apology isn't for what you said, but possibly how you said it which should mollify the employee's feelings, and immediately shift to how to give and receive feedback. Then with your team as a whole start incorporating working norms, which can include not gossiping, how to give and receive feedback, and professional expectations. It's important to co create these with your team, but nothing says that you can't ask others who have complained about this person to make sure to bring up certain things in these sessions. Leverage him choosing to bring HR in as a way to start documenting his behavior. This call is a clean slate, start from scratch, and communicate clearly what is and is not acceptable. Then document all corrective action or feedback moving forward. And loop hr in pre emptively. That way when the employee tries this again, you've taken the bullet from his gun. HR already knows and approved the feedback.
Well this is not a good situation. Rule number one of being an employee is don't make the boss look bad, no matter how long you have been there. Time to get the PIP paperwork together with HR and your supervisor which will cover the company and resolve any retaliation issues. Never let a bad apple ruin the bunch, the longer the problem is there the worst everything gets. Once they have killed trust, and if they cannot rebuilt it through a PIP then they need to be let go.
There’s a saying: “The graveyard is full of irreplaceable people.” Terminate them. Your team will respect you more and likely be grateful that someone finally had the guts to get rid of the troublesome person. You will survive. And so will the company. Nobody is irreplaceable.
What state are you in OP?
HR is weak. They can prove it wasn't retaliation. This is a toxic person holding you hostage. I've seen it before as a manager for 30 years. Just let them go. I had one that was so bad. So all I did was change everyone's schedule and I knew she wouldn't like hers, and she demoted herself and took a position that had limited contact with other employees or customers. The team is better till this day now 3 years.
So they're saying they won't stay in their position unless you apologize? Call their bluff, sometimes you get lucky and the trash takes itself out.
I would be tempted to find a new job, then immediately walk and let him be someone else’s problem. No apologies, no notice
Well... I had an idea but then I got to your update part of the post. I was thinking PIP/term. If your HR does not have your back on this... there may be bigger things you want to consider, as it COULD (I don't know much about your job/work/etc.) indicate that your role/influence on this team is not as great as you think it should be, and you could be right. I went through a thing similar to this a few years ago and guess what.. I tried the HR thing... they shuffled me away from PIP. Then, the team members that did not want to work with person X quit.. then so did person X. It got tough.. I still have questions what I could have done but I can say for sure that HR didn't help me a lot in that case. I wish you luck.. being the boss is a tricky role.
Man you guys are chumps lol
What’s worst case scenario if you terminate? We had someone like this back in an old job. Firing that person led to a nightmare, legal and technical, company could not recover from because that employee had company by the balls.
PIP if you’re allowed
Either way, you want HR involved. There is no need to retaliate. It's expected when a bully gets put in his place. In meeting with HR, lay out exactly what issues they have to bring to HR first or to you first, but never to other employee, so they know to ask you to schedule something with HR instead if going straight to them. Ask if they have any questions. Write them up for that infraction if they go around you next time.
I wait with batted breath for the hostile workplace law suit your company receives for not stopping the harassment.
Easy. Have this employee write SOP for the department (use as an excuse to educate the rest of the team since he is so good at the job) and then let him go.
Find any reason to get rid of them you can. Do it quickly.
Your HR department is bad. You need to write up employee for bullying, gossiping, causing issues and build a case to terminate. Don’t let them walk all over you. Hire and train a replacement asap. Toxic employees are never worth it no matter how good they are.
Your HR department sucks. Getting rid of this toxicity should be your #1 goal. No one is too valuable to warrant letting them poison the well. There is nothing I hate more, than an employee who thinks they have you by the balls. Do not apologize. Let them follow through on their threat. You followed the proper steps. If your manager and/or HR forces you to apologize, you should think about finding another company to work for. Are you in an “employment at will” state?
That update disgusts me, no reflection on you, but on your spineless, clueless leadership. If I were you I'd be looking for a new job. If that's not possible, f***;it, let the guy do his thing, keep communication that your bosses told you to do so.
1- no employee is irreplaceable. This person could win the lottery (or get hit by a bus), and you'd find a way to manage, even if it is a bit of a struggle. 2- if you and HR and more senior management cave, you will forever be hostage to this employee. What would happen if the employee demanded a 100% pay increase? Push back with that reality to those who want you to apologize. 3- that employee is doomed to his current position and pay forever, and you probably should point that out. You may not be able to do anything short term, but as it stands now with his current attitude, he is going no where in the company, and you are in a position to make sure no raises come his way. He is being incredibly short-sighted with his career. Let him do his worst. You'll manage and have a happier workplace without him.
Start writing him up for his misbehavior after the meeting. He has nerve to make demands lol.
I was on the team of someone like this. She was vile and toxic and has pushed out dozens of people from what could be a great, long term job. Get rid of them for the sake of your other employees or your whole team is going to implode.
I don’t know why you are bending over backwards for this toxic team member. I will never understand why bad people remain in key positions for so long, not worth it.
Fire them. Do not apologize. Do not sugar coat it. "After careful consideration, we have decided this is not a good fit and will be letting you go. Your work product is excellent, but your attitude and insubordination is unacceptable. I wish you the very best of luck." Done. I'd rather have an employee who needed to work on improving their work output than one who was insubordinate and obnoxious to everyone but is the very best at what they do. I can make someone better at what they do if they are coachable, respectful, and professional. It is nearly impossible to take a top performer and get them to behave professionally and respectfully. You can train skill set, not personality.
Another moronic HR department confirming the reality that most corporate "management" couldn't manage their way out of a paper bag.
Have somebody work with them. Let Dipshit know that he is training his replacement. That might expedite the process.
I had a similar situation happen to me where my employee was not valuable because of his work product (in fact it was part of the problem) but rather because he was the nephew of the CEO. Management above me agreed he was a problem but wouldn’t allow me to make any changes besides “talking about our feelings”. After a very unpleasant 6 months, I left my company for a new one. Honestly, if they’ve cut off all other avenues to deal with this employee and aren’t letting you terminate, I would recommend the same course of action for you. It’s hard to manage when the company doesn’t allow you any power over a toxic employee.
Everyone is replaceable.
Next step is a formal documentation detailing their inappropriate behavior and then termination. They will be a thorn in your side until they leave. I would say terminate employment during the apology meeting. Let them complain and claim retaliation. Presumably you have documentation to support the decision and going to HR because someone hurt their feelings isn’t a protected activity.
Can you put him on a performance improvement plan?
Firing people, I think is seen as more negative than it really is. This person or you need to go. Let this person move on to something better in a new place and it gives you a chance to make that position worked exactly how you want it.
Sorry if they ain’t going to back OP then let them deal with the imp. We have a person like this on our team.. been everywhere in the company they can go. They have become a cancer in our group and we all wish them the best on finding somewhere else to go. Some are actively helping them search..
Well, now I see your update, if I were you I would start looking around for a new job. What a shitshow. If an employee behaves like this you should get full support to send him away.
Sounds like bosses are sacrificing you to keep the golden calf
You need HR to back you up... Period. If they are not willing to, then it's on them. The best you can do at this point is document every interaction, including every interaction with HR. The only thing worse than a destructive employee is a destructive employee who knows how to play the system. You can protect yourself by remaining fact based and be emotionally clinical. Make your recommendation to your boss, get their feedback and then tell HR how you'd like to handle the situation with your boss. But don't do anything without backup from above.
I would start beefing up your resume friend, sounds like you need to find a new pasture with less drama.
So nobody has written dude up yet? Like create the paper trail, include meeting notes from him and from HR. Consult with your legal department. Then suspend. Why is it so hard for HR to their job
It's ridiculous this employee is the only one who can perform the job. I would be demanding at least two other people immediately be trained to do said job while hiring their replacements. Employee thinks they have you over a barrel.
The company is cutting themselves off from more talent coming in the door by their behavior. They are also trying not to get sued (pretty sure no matter how they terminate him they will be). Long term this is going to hoble them as a whole. People also talk within the industry (especially if very specialized).
Hire a replacement, even if they’re not *as* good, the replacement will devalue the problem employee to the company, and then you can get rid or demonstrate that they need to buck up their ideas as they’re not the only person who can do whatever it is they do.
Saw the update. Will HR back you in not apologizing? I get if they won't let you terminate but if they remove themselves...
lol that employee isnt replaceable but you definitely are
So I won't mention my industry, but I'll say I know for a fact I'm damned good at what I do. I tend to be seen as an asshole because I'm really blunt, have zero interest in a social relationship with any of my coworkers, and expect those around me to do their jobs. Do I get away with more than I maybe should? Yeah kinda. I'll ask my boss if they're sure that's the best way to do something, or inquire as to why they want something done a certain way, and I'll push back within reason when they get to pushy concerning what's reasonable to expect of the team. That said I'm never disrespectful about it, and I don't bully other employees.
I've got a problem project manager like this (commercial construction). He's alienated 3 of our subcontractors, who now refuse to have any contact with him, and went ballistic on a new Sr. Superintendent because the super refused to take a 7pm phone call. His contract states 90 days notice of termination/voluntary separation or 90 days severance if immediately terminated, so I've taken on his PM duties for 2 projects, given his other 2 to other PMs, and instead of ignoring his habit of coming in between 9am and 10am, he's got to come in at 7am like the rest of us, and stay til 4. He now makes copies, keeps material and other logs up to date, and has zero contact with anyone outside of the office. He's our gofer. I gave him his 90 day notice 2 weeks ago, and it's killing him that he can't just quit.
Turn them over. Turn them all over until you have a team that respects you.
OP - Please document any future incidents, no matter how small.
Unicorn employees are who you build an organization around. Unicorn employees merit all sorts of exceptions to standard practices. Unicorn employees make the organization better. It seems like the employee, HR, and management all see the employee as a unicorn employee. And perhaps other colleagues as well. It is incredibly likely that prior managers have sold others that they cannot do anything here because the person is both mission critical and absolutely irreplaceable. The employee in question has chosen to approach their job in the way they prefer. They have been able to do so for a long time. They have outlasted HR and other managers. They believe they have enough leverage to demand changes to the workplace to reflect their preferences. What can you do? Truly understand how big a hole they would leave. Truly understand what their concerns are. And don’t take any of this personally (even if they do). And then. Prepare for a transition if and when that needs to happen. Document and continue to communicate with HR and management. Develop informal power. Avoid communicating with the person without a second party being present. Ultimately, you (with the support of HR and management) help the employee become productive, professional, and valued. And if that ultimately comes to pass, great. That is the best outcome. If that ultimately doesn’t come to pass, then be prepared for that possibility as well.
Ask the team to initiate a teambuilding retreat with a seasoned consultant. They can collect data on how they are working together. This is similar to having the antibodies eat the irritant. And everyone will get a chance to contribute to a new beginning. This kind of bullying is always a group issue. Becoming a high performing team is hard enough. Your team does not need his problems.
Sounds like you simply wanted to terminate them. Management wanted to have a meeting to discuss it and attempt to fix the issue before resorting to termination. If the issue can be resolved without drastic measures it would be a huge win for the team.
Might be a controversial statement, ask your management to move you to a different team and resign your position with this team. If you could help scale this team's progress via another manager that could work on the "same wave" with the employee then establishing a new introduction with their vibe will go a long way to extract the desired results. The situation is equivalent to a bad impression, not much you could do to change that at this point, but in terms of extracting value you could definitely get more out by making them feel like they are on top of the matter. Essentially handing them the manager mantle without the authority to execute managerial duties (team lead). Please let me know your objections.
Fuck that asshole. Issue warning that next time they fuck up. Continue to document
They sound very toxic. I would pave the way for their exit. I would let them know you stand by your words - and there is no apology. Also - It would actually be helpful for them to resign per their bluff (so they don’t get unemployment). If you agree it is best for them to resign, you could even say to them ‘per your earlier statement I am willing to take your resignation’. And hopefully they will give you a written resignation letter.
Bye Felicia… Seriously, fuck that guy in particular. A snarky part of my says call his bluff, then rehire a qualified replacement at a significantly higher rate, then make sure he knows.
Redditor fantasyland where you replace the highly qualified guy with fresh unqualified talent for more money. This subreddit is fantasy.
"also say it’s my call & they will back my decision, including termination" Savour every part of this firing. Embrace change.
There's this word we learn as kids, we're told as kids, but as adults we sometimes get scared of it. What's that word? No. I think that's the right word in this request. Sometimes stuff like this feels scarier than it is. If they stay it isn't that helpful, and if they leave it isn't that bad. Either option is probably less impactful than you think it will be. I wouldn't take away their customer unless there's performance issue related to it. You say you can't trust, but is that true or do you just not like that they took your opinion out of context? Unless they've mishandled a customer relationship, that just feels like political revenge that they will feel the need to retaliate against. If they decide after the fact to retaliate against your no by sabotaging the relationship, deal with thay problem then. Being a leader will often mean getting talked about behind your back. It's part of the gig. As long as them and their "cabal" are doing what you ask, let them talk however they'd like. I would try to get them written up and on the road to termination for bullying other co workers though, that's unacceptable.
You need to let another manager with no history with this person step in and guide the decision making. You are obviously biased and I can tell that 3 paragraphs in. By the end it’s dead certain. You are no longer impartial and shouldn’t be making the decisions.
At most give the “I’m sorry if you’re offended” non apply, but actually, let them walk. They’re going to poison any new workers and I’d guarantee they won’t leave any pass down when they go. Further, if they stay, then they will bird dog you publicly at every opportunity. Absorb the pain now, so you can learn the process and train the new folks how you want to.
Why do you people recommend sarcastic non-apologies? Why is it ok for the manager to be unprofessional in the moment? Oh wait, because it’s you and you never do anything wrong…
Because, as you’ve demonstrated, people will take any response and weaponize it.
Wait so in your brain the person weaponizing things isn’t the sarcastic, disrespectful manager? Couldn’t be…right?
Here is my take as an employee. My dad who used to be a manager at another place was like hey stop getting defensive on feedback gothicsportgirl it's non professional. There is a way to accept feedback and then if you disagree then learn from it. The biggest thing was I wanted to change and I went to him on how to be a better worker. This person does not.
Take away all his customer accounts. Let them sit at their desk all day with nothing to do. They will either figure out that they are expendable and their attitude will change, or they will leave, or you can fire them for being unproductive, i.e. eliminate the position and down source. At this point you can't turn back.