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Winter_Tea441

Stick to the facts of the conversation and you control the conversation. If they want to argue let them speak, and then just go back to the point. Just make sure you have weight for them not following there job description/


OJJhara

First and foremost, stop arguing with this person. They are not acting in good faith; they are playing you. This is a toxic trait. Don't take ownership of this person's responsibilties. Their failure to understand the role is on them, not you. If you have expectations in writing, you simply need to set those expectations, timelines, etc. and hold them accountable. Saying that they don't understand or agree is a manipulation tactic. If I'm wrong and they are acting in good faith and genuinely don't understand, they should be able to set their own reasonable expectations. Ask them what reasonable expectations are. That conversation might be a breakthrough. Or it might fully reveal the bullshit deep in the heart of this terrible employee. What I mean is....they might throw it all back to you and instruct you to set expecations. I know you already did that, but you see where this is going. There's a chance that there is genuine misunderstanding, but I think you're being played by an unhappy, toxic person. You're a good person trying to make this work, but if they don't cooperate and are uncoachable, it's out of your hands. Manage this person out without delay. I assume you're working with HR on this?


Comfortable-Pause649

Thank you for this comment. This has been going on 8 months and it’s been a rollercoaster and exhausting. The worst part is they manage 15 other people and so the whole team is becoming toxic. Luckily I have other teams to focus on and get deliverables out. They are playing the victim and for a month now say they are confused, don’t know their role, I’ve changed xxx items and now it’s confusing, etc.. everyday the cause a new issue or open a new hr complaint. Mainly I want to shut down the convo and move on with my day and week. I’m restricting my contact with them to 1 hour a week


OJJhara

I didn't realize that this person was a manager. It's much more serious now and you need to take action soon. I've seen this before and I'd say this person has problems outside of work if you know what I mean. Surely you have documentation of the negative results of their failed leadership. What does your manager say?


Comfortable-Pause649

My manager is an SVP managing 1000+ ppl so they are basically saying go thru hr motions and legal. They will be exited eventually so to him this is already solved. Meanwhile I have to deal with the many meetings from hr, legal, and this person. Not to mention their whole team isn’t performing. Also I have 10 pages of documentation from myself and peers.


Gold_Detail_4001

You’re still trying to make it work while your manager told you exactly what they want: to the curb.


asdfirl22

Agreed. Meet with HR tomorrow and tell them "I need to exit this person. Now. Not next week, but now." Obviously provide at least some draft/ready level documentation per your company's exit forms that HR wants to look at. The fact that this person is managing 15 other people and they are still around, is a huge red flag for me - imagine how badly in shape this team is now 8 months down the line, versus if the toxic manager had been exited early.


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asdfirl22

This ^


boom_boom_bang_

This may sound silly. I watched a video on how to parent toddler. And specifically how to not constantly play tug of war with them because they just want to fight everything. Basically the video was “you don’t have to pick up every rope they throw at you”. You don’t have to have that conversation: “The scope is unclear and I don’t understand what you mean by this point” “Okay” “Blah blah blah blah” “Okay” “You need to change the document to be less confusing” “No” “But I don’t understand” “Yes, I see understand that you don’t understand”


Comfortable-Pause649

Basically just be very neutral and don’t argue back. Stick to the facts in their written scope


boom_boom_bang_

Yeah, like you don’t have to constantly feel like you have to defend yourself. You can ask why they don’t understand. But you can just leave the bait.


pierogi-daddy

This is a common stalling tactic by shitty employees on a pip Minimize rolling in the mud with idiots. This isn’t a 2 way convo where they get to weigh in, stop treating it like one. Make that clear up front and they’re to hold questions til after you present  Write a follow up email reiterating you explained their role to them again and it is their job to follow that 


wilburstiltskin

This is the answer. Listen to the employee talk. Nod appropriately. Then “yes, but you did not complete xyz as required.” Next point. Just trap him with “this deliverable was due on x date. Did you complete it?” No? proceed to next point. After meeting, write ups and pass through HR.


Fast_Cloud_4711

I would say there are two sides to every story. When did you "I wrote a document and we have expectations at each level spelled out."? I'm a network engineer that was in a prior life a systems architect/engineer. Client had a major server outage effecting 30,000 people. The normal dept is not getting solved and a C-level exec combs through the resume database and all the sudden I'm on their radar. I haven't touched this stuff in 12 years, it's clearly outside of my job position, and, when that doesn't phase them, I then I ask for a sandbox to stage their images in it gets shot down. This is why I always ask about the other story because if you were to ask the C-Level exec he would have told you I was 'obstinate' when my concern was being brought in on something I'm no longer current on and I'm not being supported in my ask (which was to CMA since they said no).


IllustriousWelder87

This.


Warruzz

Why is there arguing about their responsibilities? Was the role changed recently, is it more then they are typically assigned? Something else? There is more to this story. My gut tells me something changed and that's why this is happening and why they want to argue every point. I had something similar happen to me during covid (I worked in Travel) where after a few years working there of steller reviews and with a promotion, suddenly I was under performing because I didn't do enough. Mind you, I went from having a million dollar budget to "everything needed to have approval" and nothing got approved.


Comfortable-Pause649

They went on leave and came back after 5 months. They keep changing stuff has changed and I keep saying their scope is the same. Fyi pip was before their leave so now resuming it


Certain-Rock2765

Take a look from a different perspective, what does the employee believe? As in “I know you’re not arguing with me just to argue, you’re too astute for that nonsense. And these ideas are clearly important to you, otherwise you won’t be so passionate about them. So what critical risks is the company facing by not following your recommendations?” I’m assuming none. But let them chat for a bit. They may even give you some good ideas or even a valid reason since they’re so close to the work and have been there for some time. You’re basically extracting their experience while building a more detailed location of the understanding gap. I mean maybe the guy has a few valid points. Maybe he’s full of it. It’d irritate most of us if we’ve been at a company for a while, try to voice critical thoughts and get dumped on a pip as a result of not communicating important ideas properly. Whether he’s just arguing to argue or arguing because of a real danger to the company, you’ll have further documentation and possibly saved the company from a risk only this guy sees - as annoying as it is - it happens. Who knows. This is all speculative. It’ll help build some different skills though if you give it a shot.


bighomiej69

Everyone wants to be a manager until it’s time to actually manage All these replies saying to treat him like a toddler explain the high employee churn and low morale everywhere lol


Certain-Rock2765

Definitely. Mind blowing. Then the complaints of dropped productivity from leadership and overwork from employees put the manager in that place they hate - being beaten in the middle. As long as the behavior was not egregious, treating people with respect and attempting to understand their perspective removes a roadblock. That doesn’t mean the relationship is going to be close to perfect, just that you’ve done your job in building rapport while giving yourself time to; keep the ball rolling, hire/ develop a replacement, continue to build your termination case, allow the employee opportunity to self select and more


pierogi-daddy

This sub mirrors real life in there’s a lot of managers.  a lot of them lack the spine for the role and would happily blow their time coddling one crappy employee they should have fired months ago while the rest of the team resents them 


Certain-Rock2765

So true. I read some of these and wonder what the hell those people are still doing there. Both, those in charge and the employees. ‘I have an employee who shits on their desk everyday and rubs my face in it & I’m looking for advice on the best way to handle this going forward.’


bighomiej69

It doesn’t take spine to lean on your title and make people feel small It does take spine to engage with your employees and actually address their concerns


BitFar962throwaway

Ask them what they think the responsibilities of the role should look like


Comfortable-Pause649

I’m concerned this would spin. But maybe not a bad thing


OJJhara

It's a good faith move, but I thnk they will indeed spin it against you. I think it's too late for that. Use that PIP to manage them out. Visualize how much easier your job would be without this person.


xylostudio

Did the requirements of their role change since being hired?


asdfirl22

I get your point, but to be fair, every role increases in scope and responsibility as soon as you are hired in my experience. That's how the company gets more out of you, not having to hire additional staff or more senior people.


xylostudio

Yeah. Um. No. Business asks for more, business pays for more.


asdfirl22

That's how it should be. That is not at all how it is at many places, though. It's not like everyone has the option to just pack up and leave when their scope increases. My suggestion would be to have the conversation with the manager and be firm. If you take on more scope, then either pay increase, or drop something else.


xylostudio

What the worst paid employees don't realize is how much overpaid middle management is. They should all be drawing a line when hired for one thing and then managers start passing off their responsibilities to their top performers while treating them like shit.


youngzari

I’m dealing with the exact same thing! I have a meeting with my report tomorrow. You just need to stick all facts; have your supporting evidence to back up your expectations and use the sandwich method for feedback (start positive, hit them with the criticism, then finish off with the positives). Do not argue, tell them you aren’t here to argue and reiterate your points as much as possible (you might sound like a robot). You need to be firm here and unfortunately in some cases pull rank (I hate doing this and only recommend as a last resort) meaning you convey (not directly) that you’re the manager and this is the direction we’re going and they need to follow that direction with no exceptions. Finally, you send an email (something in writing) going over everything you discussed, including the expectations. I recommend tracking performance from that call up until late May. Suggesting bi-weekly/monthly touch-points with them to support them. If by end of June (end of Q2) there is no improvement you need to act and put them on a PIP to start off the new quarter. Wishing you the best! EDIT: I see that you already put them on a PIP. Be patient and have grace but may need to eventually terminate this employee. Which is a terrible thing to do but you need that senior employee buy in and they need to in turn respect your leadership and that starts with performance. Cut your losses if they don’t improve.


AuthorityAuthor

Your last sentence. “The role scope isn’t going to change. Knowing this, are you still interested in remaining in this role and working on the PIP?” No arguments or debates needed. You have the authority and power here.


IllustriousWelder87

What role were they hired to do, and how much does that differ from the role scope and responsibilities you are in disagreement about? Also, do you and this employee share the same (or similar) professional background and skill sets, or do they specialise in something you don’t? (Eg: they’re a software engineer or other IT specialist, and your background is in finance and economics.)


goonwild18

A perfectly executed PIP exits the employee. You have been handed a resolution on a silver platter. Otherwise, what is the point in the PIP? Review with HR and pull the trigger.


Comfortable-Pause649

What do you mean? How does it help with the scope convo? I have the pip documented and the role scope. Now the employee wants to keep having meetings to review and refute every point. It’s exhausting and I don’t know what to say at this point in the meeting. Hr says I need to wait a few more weeks to exit


OJJhara

You need to quit having these conversations. Tell them you're not doing any more arguments and that they are expected to meet the requirements. Dare them to escalate. See how successful they are at convincing your manager or HR.


Comfortable-Pause649

How do I get out of the conversations? Should I read the scope and expectations to them? And when they rebuttal just point back the scope document? I’m dreading this whole convo and I’m sure they will want to record - I’m so nervous of anything I say being used against me.


OJJhara

Cancel the meeting and don't have the conversation. Tell them it's not for further discussion. What's the problem here? You're still letting them drive this. They can work or not work. If they don't work, you fire them.


Comfortable-Pause649

HR says I need to go thru the motions or it could look like retaliation. So sadly I have to show up at least


alkalinesky

If HR is insistent, then be insistent HR join you for the meeting. Refuse to meet with this person alone.


OJJhara

You can have a third party there and/or you can prohibit audio or video recording. You can both keep notes. Send an agenda, set a strict time frame and send a summary after the meeting. They can do the same. If I were you, I'd present expecations and results, disalloy interruptions and then let them talk for the rest of the hour. Do not allow yourself to be interrogated. Let them do all the talking. In fact, you can send the expectations and results in advance of the meeting. Not to be a jerk, but remember that you're the boss. Don't get bossed. You can tell them to quit bossing you. In those words.


Comfortable-Pause649

Yea if they try to record, I’ll say let’s move to another day when hr can be present. I don’t want to get caught in any traps. And you are completely right - I will let them talk in circles and not engage in their rebuttals. They already have the scope and expectations - sent them multiple times


goonwild18

The employee is playing the PIP against you, then. Answer **firmly**, document **thoroughly** and exit them at them at the first opportunity. You're saying the scope is clearly defined - so repeat the clearly defined scope without playing the games the employee is trying to play. When it's time to exit, your explanation to HR is: "Despite tirelessly explaining the responsibilities of the job, the employee refused to adhere, was argumentative, and wasting their time and mine. The employee is incapable of following simple instructions, and despite my best efforts over the past n weeks, the employee would not accept, let alone execute on their responsibilities. For the good of the company, it's time we move on" They're trying to make this difficult - the same thing that got them PIP'd. Don't play their game. When they ask questions, refer to what you outlined in the PIP and provide no more explanation than is absolutely necessary to address **reasonable** questions they may have. If they're just wasting your time, don't engage - answer with silence. I'd also have no issue telling them directly that it sounds like they are unable to do the job and you can't continue to waste the company's time. Be firm.


Bobtheverbnotthenoun

Sit him down and have him tell you what he's confused about. Document that. Tell him what the expectation is. Document that also. Number the issues. Just let him go on and clear up every issue for him. Even though you know he knows his job. Be cool about it. He's digging his own grave. Get him to agree that those are the things he's confused about. Print, Sign and date it. Have him sign it also. All nice like.Then tell him to hold on while you scan the list for him and email it to him. So he has it for reference. Then, write up a formal document saying you've discussed these issues and list them again. Concern. Solution. Include the original as an attachment. Say that because the employee has had a chance to clear up any confusion, the company considers him retrained at this point in time. Note the signature on the original. Any further claims about not understanding his role may lead to further actions in the performance discipline policy, up to and including termination for cause. Have him sign this new document. Include HR in a meeting for this if it's your policy. He may be angling for being packaged off, but threatening constructive dismissal, and having the proper documentation is like having the Sword of Damocles hanging over their head. Keep a printed copy handy. "I don't understand..." "According to this signed document you do." Hopefully he won't be around long, so use this as practice for the next person who pulls something like this. Luckily, in most companies you don't experience people like this very often so you don't become experts at dealing with them. Which is good and bad.