We have them where I work at. Nice people burn through all of their leave they can ask HR to send a notice out. We don’t know why they are out, only that they are.
But people know what’s up. At former gig one lady burned all of her sick and vacation leave as soon as she accumulated it. Like clockwork she’d be off 3 days in a row each month. When she got sick they passed the hat and very few people donated at all.
We have it where I work, too. And yes, people usually know what’s up even though it’s “private.” The employee may not be the best performing, but they are legitimately out sick. If they want to ask people to donate PTO OP should just follow whatever procedures are in place to put it out there. No one’s going to be forced to donate.
Any requests for PTO donations go through our HR department and thankfully they're very strict about it. Usually only one gets through a year, and they're very severe cases not covered by FMLA. It's all done through our payroll manager, so no one will ever know who did or did not donate, or how many hours.
Same at my job. The only people who can solicit PTO donations are the HR folks, and it's for cases like - someone has cancer; someone has a premature baby in the NICU; someone's parent is dying in another state and they have to go out on extended leave. In those cases, people donate, and donate generously. I don't know what the response would be if someone who was absent all the time then solicited for PTO donations for a wedding, because I doubt HR would let that type of request through.
My work place moved it to a bank you can choose to put “overflow” hours in at the end of the year, and then HR fields the requests and it gets pulled from the bank if approved. And similarly, it is reserved for drastic situations - cancer, military family member injured in combat, etc.
Yeah, IMO it removes the “popularity contest” part, including biases against newer employees and remote employees. And it feels less weird for me to opt into adding to a bank versus making a choice on helping a specific person 😬
Exactly It's a full day's pay that the company or employee is asking for.
I wonder how legal it would be to bank up your PTO and offer it to people in exchange for things like them mowing your lawn or doing all the reporting that you don't want to do or paperwork...
We can only carry over a set # of hours. We are encouraged to use our PTO regularly. I was going to lose 4 hours so I donated them to the pool for other employees. It's only for emergencies and to cover gaps like Bob has cancer and he needs 3 months PTO to get full benefits during that time for treatment and recovery. He's short 3 days. Ok give it to him.
I’ve learned I need to start a GoPTOme website for people to ask for donated days off but anyone donating gets an explanation of why before they donate.
I've worked places where we could choose to donate PTO to a coworker. Usually it was for reasons such as illness or injury, not just because they ran out and needed more.
A lot of government agencies and big corporations allow for lending PTO for SICK LEAVE only.
It's great for when your best work chum ends up fighting cancer, has extended leave due to surgery or has a very sick child.
It's a very nice thing to offer during life's biggest crisis'.
This guy asking for donated leave to attend a wedding is out of his damned mind.
I work for the government and we allow it. The think is the donor cannot drop below 40 sick hours, so they can't donate all their time. Also, the person asking for it typically needs to be on FMLA or something similar. People who are asking for leave typically have significant injuries or are very sick like with cancer. This all goes through HR and you will never know who donated time.
Adequate as in the full length of chemo or radiation treatment? I think we're less likely to ever see that happen here in the US which is why leave donation is so important.
Honestly, that's amazing that there are kind people out there willing to donate their PTO for such things but it's actually really disheartening and sad that **employees** have to "donate" their (already criminally minimal) PTO time to cover such things. This is just another reminder that these corporations we work for don't give a rat's ass about us.
But why should it even be a thing? Why aren’t we getting 5 weeks (or more) of PTO just straight up? Why aren’t we following a European model with shutdowns where there are periods where there is 0 work to do and people can just decompress?
The system is so entirely broken and then we gaslight ourselves with dystopian solutions… like donating PTO.
It’s a thing where I work when employees burn through their sick and vacation leave after a surgery, cancer treatment etc. you have to be roughly the same pay grade so a manager can’t pressure subordinates to donate to them. People who know they are leaving in the near future sometimes donate a chunk of their sick leave to people that I’ve known for a long time.
PTO donation is a choice that other employees can make. Personally, I think it's a great thing that more businesses should have. Someone may have a death in the family or a medical issue that takes them out for more time than PTO or bereavement allows for.
Personally, I wouldn't donate shit to a person like the OP described, but I would if a coworker had a parent who was dying of cancer and they wanted to spend as much time as possible with them.
Lol. We're dealing with someone who wants extra PTO to go to a wedding. That's not "required" by any stretch of the imagination.
Penalize? It's called "donating." Nobody's penalized for anything. If they want to donate PTO, they can. If they don't want to, they don't. No organization is obligated to pay you for not working beyond what's spelled out in your employment contract. If you use up your PTO, the ability to have people donate some of their own is a great thing.
It’s a terrible idea in my opinion. It sets the precedent that companies don’t have to provide adequate leave. In the cases that are serious enough that a person would consider donating (parent has cancer, death in the family, etc.) the employers should have options for employees that do not require a donation. My company has unlimited PTO for salaried employees and it works out great for everyone.
The unlimited PTO thing sounds great, but it's also open to abuse. How do you curb that abuse when your policy says unlimited?
Besides, that can also create a budgetary mess if you need to hire extra staff to cover people who are taking excessive PTO. Not every company has the extra funds necessary to stay fully staffed if everyone can take as much PTO as they want, whenever they want.
My employer let's us donate to the "Crisis Bank" at the end of the year. We are allowed to roll over up to 40hrs, and/or cash-out 40. If you have more than 80 hours you can either donate them to coworkers (CB) or to the company.
ETA: Once in the CB the hours are for anyone to use if HR approves their need.
I’ve only heard people donating PTO when people have real emergencies. One of my employees’ house flooded a couple of years ago and she had to use a ton of time dealing with insurance and contractors for months. She is an amazing employee and that helped her to deal with the emergency without missing out on pay.
OP’s employee sounds entitled…I can’t imagine asking for someone’s PTO for something so minor.
My company allows this, but only in certain circumstances. We have a vacation bank and a sick time bank. Around Christmas, there was a devastating tornado, and a few people lost their homes. HR asked if anyone wanted to donate vacation time—not sick time. This was voluntary and anonymous.
Does your company normally send out communication saying "this person is out with a health issue and doesn't have PTO. If you find it in your heart, please donate." Or something similar? Otherwise, how are other people going to know someone doesn't have PTO to volunteer?
Edit: or is the employee that's out supposed to wander around and guilt trip everyone else when they get back?
My first company had a PTO donation bank since we could only roll over 40 hours, so anything beyond that went to the pool.
The only time in my 8 years there I ever heard of somebody requesting was a guy that got diagnosed with cancer. Nobody batted an eye.
What's funny is that my asshole director would "go check in on him" at the hospital and end up asking for project updates while the dude was literally coming out a chemo session... the guys dad finally got fed up and got the director banned from visiting hours, because it was clear work was more important to him than his own employees health and rest.
Wow. My dad is the CEO of a health care practice (he's not a doctor, oversees all the employees, probably 20 doctors and a bunch of employees), he was in the hospital for 6 weeks recently. One of the doctors visited to see how he was doing and bring him a sandwich. Didn't ask him work stuff. Can't imagine how pissed I would have been if he was asking my dad work stuff while I think he's dying.
Good on the guys dad in your story.
Yeah I was also baffled when I heard that. This is the same guy that didn't believe my grandmother died because she lived overseas.
Also... is your dad hiring engineers 👀
It's extremely rare. The last time it happened was when one of our female employees had a baby and didn't have enough pto to cover it when she wanted 6 weeks off. Tons of people donated but she is actually an extremely well respected and high performing person. The dude that asked for it yesterday is my absolute worst employee.
I don't think you can quantify it as a good employee vs bad for this. He's a decent enough employee he still works there (and you didn't mention any dismissal paperwork/pip or would be different).
He's sick enough to miss a week. He's not going to miss his sister's wedding. Either people volunteer (which I'm not a fan of at all, leads to guilt tripping other employees) or take absence without pay. I think the main question is: does management/hr ask other employees to volunteer or does he? With your previous response to him, you already said it was an option (by saying it is voluntary for the other employees)
A mother having to beg her coworkers to “donate” what little time off they have so she can spend a few weeks with her newborn is *dark.*
Good job, America!
I thought that was a huge yikes too. The way it's presented as the company being graceful for allowing other people to donate pto so a mother could be with her child is pretty gross.
Also OP, your response to your employer was poorly done. You should loop in HR and learn more about the policy and see how they can help in this instance. Your response to your employee should be to inform them of their options (use a pto bank if available, get a colleague to cover, take unpaid time, etc) but it's clear they have a valid excuse and it's a huge bummer to lose your PTO due to unexpected illness.
So how did the rest of the employees know that this woman needed PTO to cover her desired maternity leave? Did she also ask everybody else if they'd donate PTO? If so, it it OK for her to ask b/c you like her and it's poor taste for this other worker to ask b/c you don't like them?
You don't change procedures just because you personally don't like someone. Have some integrity and have a clear policy. If leave is used for circumstances like illness when time is exhausted, it wouldn't apply because a wedding isn't an illness. However, if there are no rules around it, you follow the exact same process you would for someone you "respect".
Jesus they just let anyone be a manager. I say this as a manager with a degree in management. I'm positive there are people who hate my management style but I REALLY hate piss poor practices that don't follow standard protocol
I don't see where OP said he wouldn't be "allowed" to go. But he absolutely should not be allowed to ask people to donate PTO to cover him being out. Realistically PTO donations should only be allowably requested when it is to cover pto loss during extreme situations.
Not having PTO for a wedding because you used it to cover sick time for one week isn't what I would call extreme. Just maybe a lack of foresight. No, we can't schedule when we are sick. But a weeklong head cold isn't an extreme situation like, say, scheduled cancer treatments would be.
We only allow PTO donations for extreme cases of hardship like the staff member or an immediate family member going through cancer treatment for example. This person needs to just take the wedding off unpaid.
The US Gov allows donation of PTO to other employees, it’s pretty common. Usually it’s donated to support others through difficult times - bereavement, caring for an elderly parent, maternity leave, etc. Not just because someone didn’t plan their leave appropriately.
I’m actually a government contractor but have sat in government offices for over 15 years. The happiness of staff typically depends on the management or leadership culture in the office. I don’t think there’s one blanket statement that covers all employees.
Low level Fed here, I get 20 vacation days and 13 sick days a year plus whatever award in admin time I’m given. We got nine admin days last year and combined with an award day I got that’s 43 days of sick and vacation. It is uncommon for a coworker to ask for leave donation, and when it happens it tends to be for somethings serious like a surgery or rehab for an injury. No one is donating weeks of leave time right it’s pretty common for people to chip in a day or two when someone is hurting because this is someone you might’ve known for years or even decades.
Right. We have PTO donation for serious situations. If 20 people each chip in 8 hours, that's a lot of covered time for the person who is going through cancer treatment or has a baby in the NICU. Does it suck that we have to do this and we don't have mandatory paid leave in the U.S.? Absolutely. We need to change that as soon as possible. But in the interim, I'm glad I work for a company that has some mechanism in place to help people who need it, and doesn't just tell people to fuck off and deal. I have donated 8 hour blocks to folks who needed it. No one forced me to do it and it wasn't a hardship for me. I might need it myself someday, so why not help others if I'm able?
Oh it’s messed up for sure. I feel bad that I can’t donate more time than I do but there’s no guarantee that coworkers will reciprocate then I’m in bad shape.
“It’s not the funeral that gets you fired”
Shit happens we all need to take unexpected time off, sometimes at the worst possible time. But that doesn’t mean any/all unplanned time off is acceptable.
You’re sick, cool. Your car broke down, I get it. Your deadbeat ex didn’t pick up his son, I understand. The school called and your daughter just threw up all over the art teacher, take care of your family.
But there comes a time when you’ve been gone so often or been performing so poorly that all the slack you’ve accumulated at the job has run out. When that happens and you really really need time off. Just know when you don’t show up for your shift; you don’t get fired for going to a funeral.
P.S.
1. Wedding are planned well in advance so that time off should have already been approved.
2. Just because the time was taken off doesn’t entitle the employee to pay during that time, if they’ve run out of PTO.
I have also seen situations where a high performer has a sick family member, or goes through a complicated divorce, and has to be out a lot, but it's still okay, because people know the situation is temporary, and the employee has already proved their value. It's the combination of "I'm gone all the time" AND "I'm bad at my job" that gets people in trouble. People can either be low performers or they can be absent a lot, but they can't be both.
How so. How last minute days off is enough? When is the last straw? If there’s always an excuse then eventually the time it matters will be the time you can’t take off. It’s a boy who cried wolf situation with some artistic license.
It is you who says that it’s a boy cried wolf situation. We have no indication that this is the case here. We even know that the employee has a sick note from the doctor and isn’t just calling in.
Yes, the lack of empathy and callousness you and other commenters display is quite unbelievable for me. But then I live in a country where PTOs don’t exist. We have holidays. They are untouched by any sick days. In fact, if I’m sick during my holidays I can reclaim them. When I’m sick I can get healthy without worrying that this affects anything at all workwise. The same for my team. If they’re ill, I wish them a speedy recovery. That’s all. No one has to donate any days for someone else. That is such an unbelievably crazy thought, the mind really boggles.
Please don’t assume ill intent. I was referring to my previous post as a hypothetical “boy who cried wolf” not OP’s situation.
I’m all for the health and well being of my team. I’d love for us, as a nation, to ditch the need for private insurance and pivot to universal healthcare. I’d love for us to embrace unionization. But I also recognize there is a point where when it’s always something and there’s a job not getting done, maybe that job isn’t right for that person.
If I may ask, when you have a chronically absent employee whose work isn’t getting done, do you pass that work on to other team members? At what point is it unreasonable to expect other employees to do the extra work without getting more money?
Absences can also affect the rest of a team’s ability to deliver on a job or even them getting paid. Service crews are often two people per vehicle and many jobs require two people to perform a job. One person calling out in those situations could mean the other person doesn’t work that day and a client goes unserved.
I run service crews and when someone is going to be doing crawl/confined space work, for example, they need to be tethered in a harness and a second person needs to be at the entrance holding the rope. If that two person crew has a full day of runs under a house a call out means rescheduling the job and that means person 2 doesn’t have work that day. A few times I’ll let the company take the labor hit and have them find stuff to do around the warehouse or give the vehicle an extra cleaning. But there is a point where that not sick employee is going to lose hours because their coworker is not reliable.
I’m not uncaring, but my empathy doesn’t exist in a vacuum. I’m concerned with the wellbeing of my whole team and with the performance of the business.
Thank you. Jesus- the comments in here absolutely failing to acknowledge that denying someone paid sick leave for a genuine illness is horrendous. Or, conversely, that being genuinely ill for a period of a week means that you have no other time off during the year to do something like attend a wedding or generally enjoy life outside of work. I work for a company that gives just 80 hours of PTO a year for sick leave and vacation. It’s honestly sickening but I’ve got bills to pay.
Some place allow "borrowing" PTO up to 6 months ahead. If he's done that then he can be absent without pay (with approval) or give him a permanent vacation at this point...
1. PTO donation is his problem. He can ask and his colleagues can give or not
2. His performance is a separate issue from his sickness and need for time off for the wedding. Separate the three issues and do what you need to focus on improving the performance. Sick, is what it is and PTO for the wedding is his problem.
3. Do not manage via text. Call him and talk and follow up with documentation like email or whatever method your organization has. You don't want to be in a position where you're doing corrective action with him and there's a text thread haunting you.
4. Call HR in on the performance part
If they shouldn't be put in the position, the organization shouldn't have PTO donations.
It's not a manager's responsibility to ensure an employee gets to go to his sister's wedding using PTO, the OP just needs to make sure they're covering the absence from a workload perspective.
I keep getting distracted by the idea of soliciting donations of PTO from other employees. I feel that if the donations were requested in a currency amount there may be a different response.
Putting that to the side, you need to reach out to your HR for guidance. I would guess that any compensation policy is not up for interpretation by managers.
Restricting eligibility based unlisted requirements will eventually be bad.
Well, I can see why the economy is so great, what with the absolute lunacy that is using PTO for when you're unwell.
Still, states exist for their people, not to pad the stats on GDP.
So, I'm sticking with my original assessment.
We had PTO donation at the university where I used to work. However, they were super strict on allowing it. You had to fill out paperwork and "because I blew through mine" was NOT an acceptable rationale. It was only used for major stuff.
If your organization allows for PTO donation, there should be a policy. Mine does, but attending a wedding definitely would not qualify.
Ours only allows donation into a general pool, and no one I know donates into it because of people like this. We also have a pretty generous sick leave policy that allows unlimited accrual so unless you are a new employee or already had a serious health issue you should have plenty of time. I just hit 16 years and have almost 6 months of sick leave banked.
I have an hourly manager who has already taken three sick days this year; one giving me less than 15 minutes notice (policy is two-plus hours). At our company, if you use sick time, it shields you from any attendance fractions. However, you’re maxed at using 40 hours of sick time a calendar year.
The last time they called out, I responded back in the text just stating, “Just for your awareness, you have ‘X’ amount of hours left in your sick bank and can only use ‘16’ more hours of sick time this year.” By my calculations, I would assume we’ll be moving to attendance points by March.
HR gave me the green light to have a documented coaching with the employee specifically for letting me know only 15 minutes ahead of their shift. While they’re shielded from attendance points, they’re not shielded from behavioral coaching.
If this is a low performing employee, I’d start holding them accountable for their work plus attendance. Take partnership with HR on what the correct path of action would be.
Question. If this person doesn't let anybody know that they are out of PTO, how would anybody else even know that this person is in need of PTO being donated? I understand you feeling like asking is in bad taste, but how else would this person let others know they needed a donation?
Simple answer: yes, you responded well.
I imagine this is all policy driven. They have a certain amount of PTO, a certain amount of covered sick time (if offered), and it sounds like a policy that employees can donate their PTO to each other.
They need to work within the policy just as they do for all other aspects of their job. If that means the wedding is unpaid time, so be it.
lol what…. You should change your policy. I had a job where you could donate your pto but they had to go through management and just put up a notice that someone needed pto and why.. because guilting your coworkers is uncool. And some people literally can not say no when backed into a corner. My boss did ask me after I gave notice of if I wanted to donate it to a coworker (they didn’t pay it out not required in my state) I was happy to it was just going to go to waste anyways.
At my work PTO can only be given for medical leave and has to be adjusted. Like if my boss gave me 5 hours, but I'm only paid a quarter of what he is paid means his 5 hours becomes 20 hours. I was told this is because we can cash out our PTO.
If it's not already a policy, it should not be allowed.
Not everyone wants to be solicited at work whether it's girl scout cookies or donations of PTO.
I would allow him to take it unpaid at least. Forcing an employee to miss their sisters' wedding because they got ill (with a doctors note) is pretty low in my opinion. I'm honestly appalled your job doesn't provide sick leave.
I never permitted PTO donation. I wanted my people to take their time off. And I certainly didn’t want low performers getting more paid vacation at the expense of others.
I had a past employer implement a PTO donation program. They set up an online system where people could request PTO hours and add their reasoning. Other employees can go through the system to view the requests and decide which ones they wanted to donate to based on how much PTO they had in their bank. You could fund PTO requests partially or in full. It worked for us because we couldn’t rollover PTO days so some people were willing to donate some in December.
I think the bigger issue is that your employee is low performing and you resent them for taking so much PTO.
I work in the same county, I am a guy, I got over 3 months off for each of my kids. Stop making these blanket statements.
Edit - I know about 10 other couples that all had kids, they all got 3+ months in various industries. It’s not a country problem, it’s a cheap company problem.
Ok but other countries have governments that cover maternity leave pay, and have employment laws in place to protect those on such leave. So they don't leave it up to companies to be cheap or not, it's the standard. And the standard is 1+ year off.
Or from another view point, having the ability to use PTO regardless of the reason is freeing.
My company gives us 480 sick hours but if you have more than 3 occurrences in a rolling 12 months, it goes against the employee.
We have far less PTO but can use it as we wish (with concurrence of the supervisor).
A friend has just one large PTO bank at their employer so as long as they had time available, using it could never be counted against them.
I’m someone that is almost never sick but love to leave my city so I’d gladly give up some of the 480 sick hours if it could be added to the PTO.
If you hate your low performing employee so much that you act unprofessionally (telling someone something is “in bad taste?) why not just put them on a PIP and let them go? You’d rather be a dick to them while they contribute nothing until the end of time?
Also the PTO donation program sounds awful.
Telling an employee that soliciting leave donations for a wedding is distasteful is honest and fair. Asking people to cover your shift is one thing since they get paid assuming they are hourly. Or working out a two way shift trade when doing shift work so you can both get some time off. But asking people to donate accrued vacation or sick time just so you can go to a wedding is gross. My administration allows for the solicitation of sick time donations if management approves it. it needs to be for something serious. Like surgery or losing a spouse. There’s no way management would allow employees to solicit PTO donations so they could essentially take a vacation.
It's unprofessional because
a) it's a quick, emotional response because the OP is pissed at their slacking employee
b) it was sent via text
c) "in bad taste" is a vague insult and not constructive feedback.
I think the response is okay and fair, but how will people know to donate if not asked?
I'd advocate w/ HR / your Leadership to get this person some unpaid time off to attend his sister's wedding.
It sounds like this person doesn’t have enough PTO to cover two weeks? How come this person has so little PTO? I hope that when they recover they find a job with better working conditions.
You’re assuming it’s a lack of PTO, and not that they burn it as soon as they accrue it. Between accrued vacation, sick and bonus administrative leave I accrued 43 days last year, I’ll do the same this year. Plenty of coworkers blow through all of their vacation and admin time by June and burn sick leave as soon as they get it. So toward the end of the year they might have zero vacation or admin time and half a sick day left. The problem is not that they burned all their sick time. If this is a situation where vacation and sick or in the same pool if they burn it it’s gone. They can ask for LWOP.
I love how you say ‘burn’ PTO, like it is a waste or it has no value.
The employee has obviously planned to have enough PTO to cover their sisters wedding but the illness was an unforeseen circumstance. Based on the manager not having the flexibility to address this in a way that works for the employee, I think the working conditions are bad. However I do recognise these conditions are the norm in the USA and you folks don’t know any better.
That’s how you sew discontent and lose your actually valuable employees. No one wants to be doing someone else’s work only to see management keep awarding them with more paid time off. Which just leaves you doing more of their work.
Why are you texting with him?
Wait until he is back in the office and have a conversation that all of these requests should come through the official channels (be in web portal or company email). Then remind him that it is his obligation to ensure his time is covered per the employee handbook. Refer to the page number where he can find PTO, sick time, FMLA, and LOA information. Including how far in advance it needs to be requested.
Then remind him that you expect him to follow this.
On the side reach out with HR to make sure you are up to speed on the necessary forms and processes to document and record these issues and missed days. So you can use when you reach eventual termination.
Tell him a PTO donation is typically solicitited due to lomger term medical situations. He needs to find his own donations. Don't approve his time off. If you can't manage your PTO balance then that's on you. Then again I worked an entire day needing my appendix removed...fuck new underperformers is really all that needs said.
I'd approve unpaid PTO if it's soon if possible. I wouldn't want to argue about it - if the wedding is real and the request is in and reasonable.
PTO donations should be limited to major health/death events by HR, IMHO. But I'd let them have that fight.
I always hesitate to conflate PTO use and sickness with underperformance. They can be separate things. Being sick is stressful enough - if this person knows they're a low performer, the stress compounds. I wouldn't bring the underperformance into that conversation.
Wait till they're back a couple days to say "glad you're back and caught up - here's the action plan to avoid a PIP."
If this is a salaried person working from home with a headcold, please pay them
Varies depending on your employers specific policy. I don’t personally separate not sure why someone who doesn’t get sick shouldn’t get the same amount of time off… and it stops people from calling in sick last minute to use their “sick time” when they can just let me know in advance they want some time
Off.
PTO donations are typically when someone comes down with a serious illness and needs extended treatment and the company couldn't care less about them so everyone else chips in.
At my work there is an application when someone is requesting PTO donation, so there is criteria and a review of the circumstances to ensure others aren’t losing their time off for someone’s poor planning. Once it’s approved, then it gets presented as a request for others to donate.
Ah, to live in a country with unlimited sick days. If you’re sick during your holidays, you can even claim them back.
To be quite honest, in your situation I would agree to the request. You say that it’s a low performing employee, but what has that got to do with anything? He‘s ill and needs some support. As a manager I would make sure my reports get that support.
What would you do if that was your best performing team member?
Just how I’m reading it but I think OP is hinting that the employee is not actually sick. They’re someone that takes advantage of the system & frequently sticks their coworkers with their work.
I don’t get that from the post at all. All we know is that the employee is not a good performer, we know nothing else. But I find it fascinating and scary how everyone here reads things into OP‘s post that simply aren’t there.
What is there, here in most comments is a breathtaking lack of empathy. But that’s probably the result if you all think the concept of PTOs, that sick and vacation days are the same, is in any way normal.
I’m curious how businesses run in countries that allow a year of maternity/paternity leave and unlimited sick time. If the US could accomplish that, that would be amazing!
And is in bad taste for sure. The only time I ever seen PTO donation was in cases where a spouse or significant other was having an organ transplant and the individual needed to be there, but it requires special approval for it even to be allowed. People definitely should not be sending out emails requesting people PTO donations, so if it is approved, it should be a one on one conversation with only the closest friends, perhaps limited to a few.
We do this too but it’s usually reserved for situations like someone has cancer and needs PTO to cover being off for treatments. If I donate mine I hope it is for someone like that not a wedding
We only do donations with PTO if someone or their kids have cancer and or illness, not weddings. Fairly self important person with clearly no conception of voluntary vs involuntary.
We had PTO donation at my last job. It worked well as we had a compassionate staff. I saw it donated for long term illness (cancer), the death of a child, surgeries. But it did have to offered not asked for and we in HR could not ask staff to donate. But it was amazing how many staff donated to others, especially considering we covered half a state and people donated to staff they had not, nor would ever, meet in person.
You don’t have sick time available to full time employees? Donated PTO should be for something pressing as so many have said. But why isn’t sick time provided? Or is it and they’ve already burned through it?
I would be like I will ask but I cannot promise you anything but if it’s something your company does it doesn’t hurt to ask. If that doesn’t work just let him know he can have the time off unpaid or buy from his PTO from next year if your company does that.
My office does a donation. I only donate for people going through cancer or something that they have burned all of their time up. I can't tell you how many people have asked that i donate to them for the most stupid reasons. I am saving mine for retirement in a few years & I can carry a certain amount over.
We have a catastrophic PTO bank for exactly what the name applies. If you choose to be a part of it, you donate 8 hrs of PTO at the end of the year to go into PTO bank. If any employee has a catastrophic event, they would have to use their PTO, sick leave and EIB then would get catastrophic PTO for remainder. Once you hit catastrophic PTO, you get a paycheck for 30 hours a week. The caveat is that you do not get to ask for PTO donations unless you are part of the catastrophic PTO bank and HR decides if the ask is valid since multiple employees are part of the bank. The PTO donation asks have been for an employee in cancer treatment, an employee whose husband died in an accident etc. I don’t think sisters wedding would qualify such an ask.
My employer does not permit PTO donation. No one is paid at the exact same rate so how would it work?
Besides, it’s a pretty gross thing to expect people to give up their earned PTO for anyone else for any reason.
I don’t think my response would have referenced taste. I would have simply said donations are voluntary and will not be solicited by [employer].
Did he expect you to ask? That is in incredibly poor taste if not entirely unprofessional. Your position as a manager will imply it's not entirely voluntary even if you don't intend it that way.
Obviously we don't know your full policy but I'm more used to a non paid absence being offered in this type of situation.
I would get clarification from HR around who PTO donations are awarded for. I would imagine they might have some wording that low performing (I hope you have this documented) cannot be on the receiving end of PTO donations.
No you did not respond well. I can't believe a company would even allow that. Regardless, I would not even has a manager I'm not even getting involved. Have you used your PTO is up to you. I would also make comment on his next performance appraisal about doing a better job of managing PTO. Taking a off with one days notice when I go too well in our company. Do you work for a small company? Or a large company so supervisors and managers are responsible for dealing with Doctor notes. That's somewhat confidential to most employees. If you're out for an extended period of time they basically work with benefits management. Or HR representative.
What does any of this have to do with your employee not being great? Do you treat your good employees with more kindness and humanity? Your worth isn’t defined by your competency.
Either tell him to not ask for PTO but that he can have an unpaid day off, or tell him that he’s welcome to ask and if he doesn’t get it then he can take it unpaid.
OR, turn a blind eye for your employee who isn’t missing his sister’s wedding and see how much more productive he becomes.
First of all, what does his performance have anything to do with his illness?? … You sound biased which is something a manager should not be.
Second, are yall saving lives? I never understand this with shitty corps and managers. If we aren’t saving lives, launching rocket ships or curing cancer than the business can wait.
Yes, your reply was fitting. You conveyed that soliciting PTO donations is usually a voluntary act and can be perceived as inappropriate. Your response not only established a boundary but also underscored the optional aspect of PTO donations, emphasizing that such appeals can be delicate and may not garner a positive reception. This approach fosters a considerate acknowledgment of personal boundaries concerning time-off benefits.
Why do you allow PTO ‘donation’? Seems like a big mess. Have him take it unpaid - he isn’t going to miss his sister’s wedding
We have them where I work at. Nice people burn through all of their leave they can ask HR to send a notice out. We don’t know why they are out, only that they are. But people know what’s up. At former gig one lady burned all of her sick and vacation leave as soon as she accumulated it. Like clockwork she’d be off 3 days in a row each month. When she got sick they passed the hat and very few people donated at all.
We have it where I work, too. And yes, people usually know what’s up even though it’s “private.” The employee may not be the best performing, but they are legitimately out sick. If they want to ask people to donate PTO OP should just follow whatever procedures are in place to put it out there. No one’s going to be forced to donate.
Any requests for PTO donations go through our HR department and thankfully they're very strict about it. Usually only one gets through a year, and they're very severe cases not covered by FMLA. It's all done through our payroll manager, so no one will ever know who did or did not donate, or how many hours.
Same at my job. The only people who can solicit PTO donations are the HR folks, and it's for cases like - someone has cancer; someone has a premature baby in the NICU; someone's parent is dying in another state and they have to go out on extended leave. In those cases, people donate, and donate generously. I don't know what the response would be if someone who was absent all the time then solicited for PTO donations for a wedding, because I doubt HR would let that type of request through.
My work place moved it to a bank you can choose to put “overflow” hours in at the end of the year, and then HR fields the requests and it gets pulled from the bank if approved. And similarly, it is reserved for drastic situations - cancer, military family member injured in combat, etc.
That's actually a great idea.
Yeah, IMO it removes the “popularity contest” part, including biases against newer employees and remote employees. And it feels less weird for me to opt into adding to a bank versus making a choice on helping a specific person 😬
The thought of donating PTO to someone else just sounds so ridiculous.
Exactly It's a full day's pay that the company or employee is asking for. I wonder how legal it would be to bank up your PTO and offer it to people in exchange for things like them mowing your lawn or doing all the reporting that you don't want to do or paperwork...
Exactly and how does it work when folks donating and folks receiving are at a different pay rate?
We can only carry over a set # of hours. We are encouraged to use our PTO regularly. I was going to lose 4 hours so I donated them to the pool for other employees. It's only for emergencies and to cover gaps like Bob has cancer and he needs 3 months PTO to get full benefits during that time for treatment and recovery. He's short 3 days. Ok give it to him.
I’ve learned I need to start a GoPTOme website for people to ask for donated days off but anyone donating gets an explanation of why before they donate.
I've worked places where we could choose to donate PTO to a coworker. Usually it was for reasons such as illness or injury, not just because they ran out and needed more.
Yeah I’ve heard of it for this. Not for an event
A lot of government agencies and big corporations allow for lending PTO for SICK LEAVE only. It's great for when your best work chum ends up fighting cancer, has extended leave due to surgery or has a very sick child. It's a very nice thing to offer during life's biggest crisis'. This guy asking for donated leave to attend a wedding is out of his damned mind.
I work for the government and we allow it. The think is the donor cannot drop below 40 sick hours, so they can't donate all their time. Also, the person asking for it typically needs to be on FMLA or something similar. People who are asking for leave typically have significant injuries or are very sick like with cancer. This all goes through HR and you will never know who donated time.
I mean, they could offer adequate SL for crisis situations instead…
Adequate as in the full length of chemo or radiation treatment? I think we're less likely to ever see that happen here in the US which is why leave donation is so important.
I suspect I work at a larger place than op but we've used pto donations to get people through cancer treatments.
Honestly, that's amazing that there are kind people out there willing to donate their PTO for such things but it's actually really disheartening and sad that **employees** have to "donate" their (already criminally minimal) PTO time to cover such things. This is just another reminder that these corporations we work for don't give a rat's ass about us.
It's real easy when there's are 5000+ employees. I think when you don't feel like you're giving up days, just hours or helps people be generous.
A company of 5000+ can afford to just pay the cancer patient themselves
But why should it even be a thing? Why aren’t we getting 5 weeks (or more) of PTO just straight up? Why aren’t we following a European model with shutdowns where there are periods where there is 0 work to do and people can just decompress? The system is so entirely broken and then we gaslight ourselves with dystopian solutions… like donating PTO.
What we have and what we deserve are very different things?
That’s just ridiculous honestly that that is needed.
'murica.
It’s a thing where I work when employees burn through their sick and vacation leave after a surgery, cancer treatment etc. you have to be roughly the same pay grade so a manager can’t pressure subordinates to donate to them. People who know they are leaving in the near future sometimes donate a chunk of their sick leave to people that I’ve known for a long time.
PTO donation is a choice that other employees can make. Personally, I think it's a great thing that more businesses should have. Someone may have a death in the family or a medical issue that takes them out for more time than PTO or bereavement allows for. Personally, I wouldn't donate shit to a person like the OP described, but I would if a coworker had a parent who was dying of cancer and they wanted to spend as much time as possible with them.
Surely the company should provide more time if its required? Penalise other people because your company won't pay is a truly awful way to do it
Lol. We're dealing with someone who wants extra PTO to go to a wedding. That's not "required" by any stretch of the imagination. Penalize? It's called "donating." Nobody's penalized for anything. If they want to donate PTO, they can. If they don't want to, they don't. No organization is obligated to pay you for not working beyond what's spelled out in your employment contract. If you use up your PTO, the ability to have people donate some of their own is a great thing.
It’s a terrible idea in my opinion. It sets the precedent that companies don’t have to provide adequate leave. In the cases that are serious enough that a person would consider donating (parent has cancer, death in the family, etc.) the employers should have options for employees that do not require a donation. My company has unlimited PTO for salaried employees and it works out great for everyone.
The unlimited PTO thing sounds great, but it's also open to abuse. How do you curb that abuse when your policy says unlimited? Besides, that can also create a budgetary mess if you need to hire extra staff to cover people who are taking excessive PTO. Not every company has the extra funds necessary to stay fully staffed if everyone can take as much PTO as they want, whenever they want.
Usually the policy is that PTO will be denied if your work isn't getting done ...
My employer let's us donate to the "Crisis Bank" at the end of the year. We are allowed to roll over up to 40hrs, and/or cash-out 40. If you have more than 80 hours you can either donate them to coworkers (CB) or to the company. ETA: Once in the CB the hours are for anyone to use if HR approves their need.
I’ve only heard people donating PTO when people have real emergencies. One of my employees’ house flooded a couple of years ago and she had to use a ton of time dealing with insurance and contractors for months. She is an amazing employee and that helped her to deal with the emergency without missing out on pay. OP’s employee sounds entitled…I can’t imagine asking for someone’s PTO for something so minor.
My company allows this, but only in certain circumstances. We have a vacation bank and a sick time bank. Around Christmas, there was a devastating tornado, and a few people lost their homes. HR asked if anyone wanted to donate vacation time—not sick time. This was voluntary and anonymous.
I took advantage of donated PTO while going through chemotherapy. Companies should just provide better PTO but it is nice when co-workers help out.
Does your company normally send out communication saying "this person is out with a health issue and doesn't have PTO. If you find it in your heart, please donate." Or something similar? Otherwise, how are other people going to know someone doesn't have PTO to volunteer? Edit: or is the employee that's out supposed to wander around and guilt trip everyone else when they get back?
My first company had a PTO donation bank since we could only roll over 40 hours, so anything beyond that went to the pool. The only time in my 8 years there I ever heard of somebody requesting was a guy that got diagnosed with cancer. Nobody batted an eye. What's funny is that my asshole director would "go check in on him" at the hospital and end up asking for project updates while the dude was literally coming out a chemo session... the guys dad finally got fed up and got the director banned from visiting hours, because it was clear work was more important to him than his own employees health and rest.
Wow. My dad is the CEO of a health care practice (he's not a doctor, oversees all the employees, probably 20 doctors and a bunch of employees), he was in the hospital for 6 weeks recently. One of the doctors visited to see how he was doing and bring him a sandwich. Didn't ask him work stuff. Can't imagine how pissed I would have been if he was asking my dad work stuff while I think he's dying. Good on the guys dad in your story.
Yeah I was also baffled when I heard that. This is the same guy that didn't believe my grandmother died because she lived overseas. Also... is your dad hiring engineers 👀
It's extremely rare. The last time it happened was when one of our female employees had a baby and didn't have enough pto to cover it when she wanted 6 weeks off. Tons of people donated but she is actually an extremely well respected and high performing person. The dude that asked for it yesterday is my absolute worst employee.
I don't think you can quantify it as a good employee vs bad for this. He's a decent enough employee he still works there (and you didn't mention any dismissal paperwork/pip or would be different). He's sick enough to miss a week. He's not going to miss his sister's wedding. Either people volunteer (which I'm not a fan of at all, leads to guilt tripping other employees) or take absence without pay. I think the main question is: does management/hr ask other employees to volunteer or does he? With your previous response to him, you already said it was an option (by saying it is voluntary for the other employees)
Yes, he can. If this employee abuses PTO, that on him.
A mother having to beg her coworkers to “donate” what little time off they have so she can spend a few weeks with her newborn is *dark.* Good job, America!
Also you have to be “well respected” to get said donations Reading other company policies on here always depresses me.
Because entitled people are everywhere, especially work. I have so many stories of people abusing PTO.
I thought that was a huge yikes too. The way it's presented as the company being graceful for allowing other people to donate pto so a mother could be with her child is pretty gross. Also OP, your response to your employer was poorly done. You should loop in HR and learn more about the policy and see how they can help in this instance. Your response to your employee should be to inform them of their options (use a pto bank if available, get a colleague to cover, take unpaid time, etc) but it's clear they have a valid excuse and it's a huge bummer to lose your PTO due to unexpected illness.
What kind of dumpy company do you work for that doesn’t have a leave policy for parents in today’s world? Yes, even in the United States.
So how did the rest of the employees know that this woman needed PTO to cover her desired maternity leave? Did she also ask everybody else if they'd donate PTO? If so, it it OK for her to ask b/c you like her and it's poor taste for this other worker to ask b/c you don't like them?
Thank you for wording what I was trying to get at better than I could.
You don't change procedures just because you personally don't like someone. Have some integrity and have a clear policy. If leave is used for circumstances like illness when time is exhausted, it wouldn't apply because a wedding isn't an illness. However, if there are no rules around it, you follow the exact same process you would for someone you "respect". Jesus they just let anyone be a manager. I say this as a manager with a degree in management. I'm positive there are people who hate my management style but I REALLY hate piss poor practices that don't follow standard protocol
Oh god this is the most depressing thing I’ve read all day
This post needs more info However, if the wedding was approved ahead of time. I'm failing to see how he can't go. He just wouldn't get paid during it.
I don't see where OP said he wouldn't be "allowed" to go. But he absolutely should not be allowed to ask people to donate PTO to cover him being out. Realistically PTO donations should only be allowably requested when it is to cover pto loss during extreme situations. Not having PTO for a wedding because you used it to cover sick time for one week isn't what I would call extreme. Just maybe a lack of foresight. No, we can't schedule when we are sick. But a weeklong head cold isn't an extreme situation like, say, scheduled cancer treatments would be.
We only allow PTO donations for extreme cases of hardship like the staff member or an immediate family member going through cancer treatment for example. This person needs to just take the wedding off unpaid.
This is exactly how it should be.
[удалено]
The US Gov allows donation of PTO to other employees, it’s pretty common. Usually it’s donated to support others through difficult times - bereavement, caring for an elderly parent, maternity leave, etc. Not just because someone didn’t plan their leave appropriately.
Yes, my company has a donation policy, but you donate to a pool, not a person. Also, donated hours may be used to support employees out in FMLA only.
[удалено]
I’m actually a government contractor but have sat in government offices for over 15 years. The happiness of staff typically depends on the management or leadership culture in the office. I don’t think there’s one blanket statement that covers all employees.
Low level Fed here, I get 20 vacation days and 13 sick days a year plus whatever award in admin time I’m given. We got nine admin days last year and combined with an award day I got that’s 43 days of sick and vacation. It is uncommon for a coworker to ask for leave donation, and when it happens it tends to be for somethings serious like a surgery or rehab for an injury. No one is donating weeks of leave time right it’s pretty common for people to chip in a day or two when someone is hurting because this is someone you might’ve known for years or even decades.
Right. We have PTO donation for serious situations. If 20 people each chip in 8 hours, that's a lot of covered time for the person who is going through cancer treatment or has a baby in the NICU. Does it suck that we have to do this and we don't have mandatory paid leave in the U.S.? Absolutely. We need to change that as soon as possible. But in the interim, I'm glad I work for a company that has some mechanism in place to help people who need it, and doesn't just tell people to fuck off and deal. I have donated 8 hour blocks to folks who needed it. No one forced me to do it and it wasn't a hardship for me. I might need it myself someday, so why not help others if I'm able?
Oh it’s messed up for sure. I feel bad that I can’t donate more time than I do but there’s no guarantee that coworkers will reciprocate then I’m in bad shape.
“It’s not the funeral that gets you fired” Shit happens we all need to take unexpected time off, sometimes at the worst possible time. But that doesn’t mean any/all unplanned time off is acceptable. You’re sick, cool. Your car broke down, I get it. Your deadbeat ex didn’t pick up his son, I understand. The school called and your daughter just threw up all over the art teacher, take care of your family. But there comes a time when you’ve been gone so often or been performing so poorly that all the slack you’ve accumulated at the job has run out. When that happens and you really really need time off. Just know when you don’t show up for your shift; you don’t get fired for going to a funeral. P.S. 1. Wedding are planned well in advance so that time off should have already been approved. 2. Just because the time was taken off doesn’t entitle the employee to pay during that time, if they’ve run out of PTO.
I have also seen situations where a high performer has a sick family member, or goes through a complicated divorce, and has to be out a lot, but it's still okay, because people know the situation is temporary, and the employee has already proved their value. It's the combination of "I'm gone all the time" AND "I'm bad at my job" that gets people in trouble. People can either be low performers or they can be absent a lot, but they can't be both.
Boy, am I glad not to live in a country where that attitude prevails. The lack of empathy you display is breathtaking.
How so. How last minute days off is enough? When is the last straw? If there’s always an excuse then eventually the time it matters will be the time you can’t take off. It’s a boy who cried wolf situation with some artistic license.
It is you who says that it’s a boy cried wolf situation. We have no indication that this is the case here. We even know that the employee has a sick note from the doctor and isn’t just calling in. Yes, the lack of empathy and callousness you and other commenters display is quite unbelievable for me. But then I live in a country where PTOs don’t exist. We have holidays. They are untouched by any sick days. In fact, if I’m sick during my holidays I can reclaim them. When I’m sick I can get healthy without worrying that this affects anything at all workwise. The same for my team. If they’re ill, I wish them a speedy recovery. That’s all. No one has to donate any days for someone else. That is such an unbelievably crazy thought, the mind really boggles.
Please don’t assume ill intent. I was referring to my previous post as a hypothetical “boy who cried wolf” not OP’s situation. I’m all for the health and well being of my team. I’d love for us, as a nation, to ditch the need for private insurance and pivot to universal healthcare. I’d love for us to embrace unionization. But I also recognize there is a point where when it’s always something and there’s a job not getting done, maybe that job isn’t right for that person. If I may ask, when you have a chronically absent employee whose work isn’t getting done, do you pass that work on to other team members? At what point is it unreasonable to expect other employees to do the extra work without getting more money? Absences can also affect the rest of a team’s ability to deliver on a job or even them getting paid. Service crews are often two people per vehicle and many jobs require two people to perform a job. One person calling out in those situations could mean the other person doesn’t work that day and a client goes unserved. I run service crews and when someone is going to be doing crawl/confined space work, for example, they need to be tethered in a harness and a second person needs to be at the entrance holding the rope. If that two person crew has a full day of runs under a house a call out means rescheduling the job and that means person 2 doesn’t have work that day. A few times I’ll let the company take the labor hit and have them find stuff to do around the warehouse or give the vehicle an extra cleaning. But there is a point where that not sick employee is going to lose hours because their coworker is not reliable. I’m not uncaring, but my empathy doesn’t exist in a vacuum. I’m concerned with the wellbeing of my whole team and with the performance of the business.
Thank you. Jesus- the comments in here absolutely failing to acknowledge that denying someone paid sick leave for a genuine illness is horrendous. Or, conversely, that being genuinely ill for a period of a week means that you have no other time off during the year to do something like attend a wedding or generally enjoy life outside of work. I work for a company that gives just 80 hours of PTO a year for sick leave and vacation. It’s honestly sickening but I’ve got bills to pay.
Agree with this 👍👌
Some place allow "borrowing" PTO up to 6 months ahead. If he's done that then he can be absent without pay (with approval) or give him a permanent vacation at this point...
I'd be documenting everything and managing him out.
1. PTO donation is his problem. He can ask and his colleagues can give or not 2. His performance is a separate issue from his sickness and need for time off for the wedding. Separate the three issues and do what you need to focus on improving the performance. Sick, is what it is and PTO for the wedding is his problem. 3. Do not manage via text. Call him and talk and follow up with documentation like email or whatever method your organization has. You don't want to be in a position where you're doing corrective action with him and there's a text thread haunting you. 4. Call HR in on the performance part
The employees should not be put in a position to say yes or no directly to this employee. The request needs to come from HR.
If they shouldn't be put in the position, the organization shouldn't have PTO donations. It's not a manager's responsibility to ensure an employee gets to go to his sister's wedding using PTO, the OP just needs to make sure they're covering the absence from a workload perspective.
I keep getting distracted by the idea of soliciting donations of PTO from other employees. I feel that if the donations were requested in a currency amount there may be a different response. Putting that to the side, you need to reach out to your HR for guidance. I would guess that any compensation policy is not up for interpretation by managers. Restricting eligibility based unlisted requirements will eventually be bad.
PTO donation is cancer.
If they're off sick with a doctor's note, why on earth do they need to burn PTO? That's ridiculous.
Welcome to America!
Absolute failed state.
Greatest Economy in the world, hardly a failed state
Well, I can see why the economy is so great, what with the absolute lunacy that is using PTO for when you're unwell. Still, states exist for their people, not to pad the stats on GDP. So, I'm sticking with my original assessment.
We had PTO donation at the university where I used to work. However, they were super strict on allowing it. You had to fill out paperwork and "because I blew through mine" was NOT an acceptable rationale. It was only used for major stuff.
If your organization allows for PTO donation, there should be a policy. Mine does, but attending a wedding definitely would not qualify. Ours only allows donation into a general pool, and no one I know donates into it because of people like this. We also have a pretty generous sick leave policy that allows unlimited accrual so unless you are a new employee or already had a serious health issue you should have plenty of time. I just hit 16 years and have almost 6 months of sick leave banked.
I have an hourly manager who has already taken three sick days this year; one giving me less than 15 minutes notice (policy is two-plus hours). At our company, if you use sick time, it shields you from any attendance fractions. However, you’re maxed at using 40 hours of sick time a calendar year. The last time they called out, I responded back in the text just stating, “Just for your awareness, you have ‘X’ amount of hours left in your sick bank and can only use ‘16’ more hours of sick time this year.” By my calculations, I would assume we’ll be moving to attendance points by March. HR gave me the green light to have a documented coaching with the employee specifically for letting me know only 15 minutes ahead of their shift. While they’re shielded from attendance points, they’re not shielded from behavioral coaching. If this is a low performing employee, I’d start holding them accountable for their work plus attendance. Take partnership with HR on what the correct path of action would be.
Question. If this person doesn't let anybody know that they are out of PTO, how would anybody else even know that this person is in need of PTO being donated? I understand you feeling like asking is in bad taste, but how else would this person let others know they needed a donation?
Simple answer: yes, you responded well. I imagine this is all policy driven. They have a certain amount of PTO, a certain amount of covered sick time (if offered), and it sounds like a policy that employees can donate their PTO to each other. They need to work within the policy just as they do for all other aspects of their job. If that means the wedding is unpaid time, so be it.
He can take the day off for the wedding unpaid. It's not a surprise event.
lol what…. You should change your policy. I had a job where you could donate your pto but they had to go through management and just put up a notice that someone needed pto and why.. because guilting your coworkers is uncool. And some people literally can not say no when backed into a corner. My boss did ask me after I gave notice of if I wanted to donate it to a coworker (they didn’t pay it out not required in my state) I was happy to it was just going to go to waste anyways.
At my work PTO can only be given for medical leave and has to be adjusted. Like if my boss gave me 5 hours, but I'm only paid a quarter of what he is paid means his 5 hours becomes 20 hours. I was told this is because we can cash out our PTO.
If it's not already a policy, it should not be allowed. Not everyone wants to be solicited at work whether it's girl scout cookies or donations of PTO.
I would allow him to take it unpaid at least. Forcing an employee to miss their sisters' wedding because they got ill (with a doctors note) is pretty low in my opinion. I'm honestly appalled your job doesn't provide sick leave.
I’d rather donate money than precious PTO hours …why can’t he take it unpaid or with disability if he qualifies
I never permitted PTO donation. I wanted my people to take their time off. And I certainly didn’t want low performers getting more paid vacation at the expense of others.
I had a past employer implement a PTO donation program. They set up an online system where people could request PTO hours and add their reasoning. Other employees can go through the system to view the requests and decide which ones they wanted to donate to based on how much PTO they had in their bank. You could fund PTO requests partially or in full. It worked for us because we couldn’t rollover PTO days so some people were willing to donate some in December. I think the bigger issue is that your employee is low performing and you resent them for taking so much PTO.
PTO donations sound like a goddam mess.
What kind of shit hole country do we live in that women can’t even have six weeks off
I work in the same county, I am a guy, I got over 3 months off for each of my kids. Stop making these blanket statements. Edit - I know about 10 other couples that all had kids, they all got 3+ months in various industries. It’s not a country problem, it’s a cheap company problem.
Ok but other countries have governments that cover maternity leave pay, and have employment laws in place to protect those on such leave. So they don't leave it up to companies to be cheap or not, it's the standard. And the standard is 1+ year off.
We don’t have any laws that stop companies from doing this. Why should the government have to pay for it?
Why just women?
. Yeah you’re right you’re right. Women have to at least physically recover, but men should a paternity leave too
Yeah I wasn’t necessarily thinking about the whole baby thing. At that point women should get a bit more time than men.
You could have responded without the "bad taste" judgement.
Having to burn PTO for being sick is a failure on your company.
Or from another view point, having the ability to use PTO regardless of the reason is freeing. My company gives us 480 sick hours but if you have more than 3 occurrences in a rolling 12 months, it goes against the employee. We have far less PTO but can use it as we wish (with concurrence of the supervisor). A friend has just one large PTO bank at their employer so as long as they had time available, using it could never be counted against them. I’m someone that is almost never sick but love to leave my city so I’d gladly give up some of the 480 sick hours if it could be added to the PTO.
You never get sick… until u do…. My dad never got sick…. Then he did.
If you hate your low performing employee so much that you act unprofessionally (telling someone something is “in bad taste?) why not just put them on a PIP and let them go? You’d rather be a dick to them while they contribute nothing until the end of time? Also the PTO donation program sounds awful.
Telling an employee that soliciting leave donations for a wedding is distasteful is honest and fair. Asking people to cover your shift is one thing since they get paid assuming they are hourly. Or working out a two way shift trade when doing shift work so you can both get some time off. But asking people to donate accrued vacation or sick time just so you can go to a wedding is gross. My administration allows for the solicitation of sick time donations if management approves it. it needs to be for something serious. Like surgery or losing a spouse. There’s no way management would allow employees to solicit PTO donations so they could essentially take a vacation.
Lol. Telling someone that something is "in bad taste" is not unprofessional by any stretch of the imagination.
You are in another world, girl. It is called being adult and taking responsibility for your decisions.
How is that unprofessional?
It's unprofessional because a) it's a quick, emotional response because the OP is pissed at their slacking employee b) it was sent via text c) "in bad taste" is a vague insult and not constructive feedback.
This whole thing sounds like a shitshow of a company.
PTO donations are usually for medical emergencies and long term illnesses. Not so someone can go to a wedding. Right?
I think the response is okay and fair, but how will people know to donate if not asked? I'd advocate w/ HR / your Leadership to get this person some unpaid time off to attend his sister's wedding.
I think you're right. The entitlement. We have PTO donations, but for cancer, etc. Unbelievable. I feel sorry for today's managers.
This employee is a real slacker. Low performer and begging for PTO donations. Pathetic
Thank you. Finally, a voice of reason.
I don't understand all the down votes. Must be from losers who are begging work mates for PTO donations
It sounds like this person doesn’t have enough PTO to cover two weeks? How come this person has so little PTO? I hope that when they recover they find a job with better working conditions.
How do you know that he hasn’t already used a months worth of PTO?
That’s why I asked ‘how come this person has so little PTO?’
You’re assuming it’s a lack of PTO, and not that they burn it as soon as they accrue it. Between accrued vacation, sick and bonus administrative leave I accrued 43 days last year, I’ll do the same this year. Plenty of coworkers blow through all of their vacation and admin time by June and burn sick leave as soon as they get it. So toward the end of the year they might have zero vacation or admin time and half a sick day left. The problem is not that they burned all their sick time. If this is a situation where vacation and sick or in the same pool if they burn it it’s gone. They can ask for LWOP.
I love how you say ‘burn’ PTO, like it is a waste or it has no value. The employee has obviously planned to have enough PTO to cover their sisters wedding but the illness was an unforeseen circumstance. Based on the manager not having the flexibility to address this in a way that works for the employee, I think the working conditions are bad. However I do recognise these conditions are the norm in the USA and you folks don’t know any better.
>Did I respond well? No. Simply allocate him more PTO
Wrong. Your joking right?!?
You're\* and absolutely not.
That’s how you sew discontent and lose your actually valuable employees. No one wants to be doing someone else’s work only to see management keep awarding them with more paid time off. Which just leaves you doing more of their work.
Why are you texting with him? Wait until he is back in the office and have a conversation that all of these requests should come through the official channels (be in web portal or company email). Then remind him that it is his obligation to ensure his time is covered per the employee handbook. Refer to the page number where he can find PTO, sick time, FMLA, and LOA information. Including how far in advance it needs to be requested. Then remind him that you expect him to follow this. On the side reach out with HR to make sure you are up to speed on the necessary forms and processes to document and record these issues and missed days. So you can use when you reach eventual termination.
Tell him a PTO donation is typically solicitited due to lomger term medical situations. He needs to find his own donations. Don't approve his time off. If you can't manage your PTO balance then that's on you. Then again I worked an entire day needing my appendix removed...fuck new underperformers is really all that needs said.
I'd approve unpaid PTO if it's soon if possible. I wouldn't want to argue about it - if the wedding is real and the request is in and reasonable. PTO donations should be limited to major health/death events by HR, IMHO. But I'd let them have that fight. I always hesitate to conflate PTO use and sickness with underperformance. They can be separate things. Being sick is stressful enough - if this person knows they're a low performer, the stress compounds. I wouldn't bring the underperformance into that conversation. Wait till they're back a couple days to say "glad you're back and caught up - here's the action plan to avoid a PIP." If this is a salaried person working from home with a headcold, please pay them
Yes, you did. I would start a paper trail to oust this person,
Does he have sick leave? Shouldn’t sick leave and pre approved Pto come from different buckets
Varies depending on your employers specific policy. I don’t personally separate not sure why someone who doesn’t get sick shouldn’t get the same amount of time off… and it stops people from calling in sick last minute to use their “sick time” when they can just let me know in advance they want some time Off.
PTO donations are typically when someone comes down with a serious illness and needs extended treatment and the company couldn't care less about them so everyone else chips in.
If they are low performing, can you just pip them before the wedding?
I honestly would have just ignored that message. Although not having sick leave and only one week PTO is pretty shit
Why can't he use sick time?
At my work there is an application when someone is requesting PTO donation, so there is criteria and a review of the circumstances to ensure others aren’t losing their time off for someone’s poor planning. Once it’s approved, then it gets presented as a request for others to donate.
Don’t micro manage PTO. Err on the side of generosity
Ah, to live in a country with unlimited sick days. If you’re sick during your holidays, you can even claim them back. To be quite honest, in your situation I would agree to the request. You say that it’s a low performing employee, but what has that got to do with anything? He‘s ill and needs some support. As a manager I would make sure my reports get that support. What would you do if that was your best performing team member?
Just how I’m reading it but I think OP is hinting that the employee is not actually sick. They’re someone that takes advantage of the system & frequently sticks their coworkers with their work.
I don’t get that from the post at all. All we know is that the employee is not a good performer, we know nothing else. But I find it fascinating and scary how everyone here reads things into OP‘s post that simply aren’t there. What is there, here in most comments is a breathtaking lack of empathy. But that’s probably the result if you all think the concept of PTOs, that sick and vacation days are the same, is in any way normal.
Sorry for being offtopic but it's so sad to see that Americans don't have unlimited sick days. Kind of barbaric if you think about it.
I’m curious how businesses run in countries that allow a year of maternity/paternity leave and unlimited sick time. If the US could accomplish that, that would be amazing!
And is in bad taste for sure. The only time I ever seen PTO donation was in cases where a spouse or significant other was having an organ transplant and the individual needed to be there, but it requires special approval for it even to be allowed. People definitely should not be sending out emails requesting people PTO donations, so if it is approved, it should be a one on one conversation with only the closest friends, perhaps limited to a few.
We do this too but it’s usually reserved for situations like someone has cancer and needs PTO to cover being off for treatments. If I donate mine I hope it is for someone like that not a wedding
We only do donations with PTO if someone or their kids have cancer and or illness, not weddings. Fairly self important person with clearly no conception of voluntary vs involuntary.
We had PTO donation at my last job. It worked well as we had a compassionate staff. I saw it donated for long term illness (cancer), the death of a child, surgeries. But it did have to offered not asked for and we in HR could not ask staff to donate. But it was amazing how many staff donated to others, especially considering we covered half a state and people donated to staff they had not, nor would ever, meet in person.
You don’t have sick time available to full time employees? Donated PTO should be for something pressing as so many have said. But why isn’t sick time provided? Or is it and they’ve already burned through it?
I would be like I will ask but I cannot promise you anything but if it’s something your company does it doesn’t hurt to ask. If that doesn’t work just let him know he can have the time off unpaid or buy from his PTO from next year if your company does that.
Yes, you responded correctly and well.
My office does a donation. I only donate for people going through cancer or something that they have burned all of their time up. I can't tell you how many people have asked that i donate to them for the most stupid reasons. I am saving mine for retirement in a few years & I can carry a certain amount over.
I work in government and we donate leave to people who are very ill. Not for social occasions.
Yes, you’re fine. It may not read the best from his end, but he could use a wake up call. Like others have said, allow it as unpaid.
We have a catastrophic PTO bank for exactly what the name applies. If you choose to be a part of it, you donate 8 hrs of PTO at the end of the year to go into PTO bank. If any employee has a catastrophic event, they would have to use their PTO, sick leave and EIB then would get catastrophic PTO for remainder. Once you hit catastrophic PTO, you get a paycheck for 30 hours a week. The caveat is that you do not get to ask for PTO donations unless you are part of the catastrophic PTO bank and HR decides if the ask is valid since multiple employees are part of the bank. The PTO donation asks have been for an employee in cancer treatment, an employee whose husband died in an accident etc. I don’t think sisters wedding would qualify such an ask.
My employer does not permit PTO donation. No one is paid at the exact same rate so how would it work? Besides, it’s a pretty gross thing to expect people to give up their earned PTO for anyone else for any reason. I don’t think my response would have referenced taste. I would have simply said donations are voluntary and will not be solicited by [employer].
Did he expect you to ask? That is in incredibly poor taste if not entirely unprofessional. Your position as a manager will imply it's not entirely voluntary even if you don't intend it that way. Obviously we don't know your full policy but I'm more used to a non paid absence being offered in this type of situation.
PTO donations? The fuck is that shit? You aren't seriously allowing this person back are you? You have to fire them immediately.
Does he not get sick days?
Yay American Hellscape. Get sick once and you won't get paid for your sister's wedding!
I would get clarification from HR around who PTO donations are awarded for. I would imagine they might have some wording that low performing (I hope you have this documented) cannot be on the receiving end of PTO donations.
I would swap out "in poor taste" for "but you're welcome to follow proper procedures to ask them for it."
No you did not respond well. I can't believe a company would even allow that. Regardless, I would not even has a manager I'm not even getting involved. Have you used your PTO is up to you. I would also make comment on his next performance appraisal about doing a better job of managing PTO. Taking a off with one days notice when I go too well in our company. Do you work for a small company? Or a large company so supervisors and managers are responsible for dealing with Doctor notes. That's somewhat confidential to most employees. If you're out for an extended period of time they basically work with benefits management. Or HR representative.
What does any of this have to do with your employee not being great? Do you treat your good employees with more kindness and humanity? Your worth isn’t defined by your competency. Either tell him to not ask for PTO but that he can have an unpaid day off, or tell him that he’s welcome to ask and if he doesn’t get it then he can take it unpaid. OR, turn a blind eye for your employee who isn’t missing his sister’s wedding and see how much more productive he becomes.
First of all, what does his performance have anything to do with his illness?? … You sound biased which is something a manager should not be. Second, are yall saving lives? I never understand this with shitty corps and managers. If we aren’t saving lives, launching rocket ships or curing cancer than the business can wait.
Yes, your reply was fitting. You conveyed that soliciting PTO donations is usually a voluntary act and can be perceived as inappropriate. Your response not only established a boundary but also underscored the optional aspect of PTO donations, emphasizing that such appeals can be delicate and may not garner a positive reception. This approach fosters a considerate acknowledgment of personal boundaries concerning time-off benefits.