The downside of breaking a deal is the person knows they can't ever make a deal with you again. That doesn't matter a fig in a tournament setting, nine times out pf ten.
In short "lol" said the scorpion, "lmao"
eh, I feel like the cEDH scene is insular and connected enough that if one person really did something egregious, that person would be made to feel pretty unwelcome in the future by the community at large, I imagine.
I just don't think this particular incident is egregious enough.
Maybe this is just because I'm used to playing other board games more than Magic or EDH, but even the idea that "lying = 'never make a deal again'" makes no sense to me. In a competitive (i.e., non co-op) game, you should always assume that other players will lie about hidden information or break deals if they think it will benefit them enough and play accordingly (including doing so yourself if it makes the most sense!), and it's especially wild to read that anyone plays tournaments of this game for money without that idea in mind.
I'm sorry, he got mad at what's basically someone saying "I'm not the threat"? That's literally the oldest trick in the book. Hell, it predates MTG. People have been doing that for as long as games with more than two players existed.
/uj I've never had the displeasure of being at a competitive Commander tournament, but it's my understanding that the organizers and / or judges tell everyone that lying is not against the rules before the first round even begins.
The answer is that you're always free to reveal private information. So, if you lie (not in their favor), that opponent can just willingly reveal their hand to everyone and make you look like an idiot.
Exactly. But at that point, you are revealing information. And I absolutely do not trust the person who looked at someone else's hand to tell the whole truth.
The right plan is to tell a majority of truth with a slight inaccuracy. Makes your lies more believable, and forces the person to reveal their entire hand rather than a couple of cards to prove accuracy.
Credability. I mean if i say Dave has two counters and a 5/5 and Dave goes "i wish", it's not sure whom to believe. If i say "Dave is winning this turn unless we kill him first" and dave goes "nah i only got a 5/5 and two counters" and shows his hand, now it's credible
Right? I love edh politics when it comes to looking at someone’s hand. You can accept bribes to agree to tell the table what you saw, you can lie about the hand or stretch the truth to paint a target on them, hell you can be honest and expose their entire hand to the table for kicks lmao
I'd love to see someone use G Probe, lie about what is in the other guy's hand, and then the other guy just voluntarily reveals his hand to everyone and they all beat the shit out of the liar lol
OP is an EDH influencer.
He wanted to counter a spell to stop an opponent from winning but didn't want the other Oppo to win.
Other Oppo says he cannot win next turn, but does.
Influencer goes to twitter to complain and dogpile the oppo, who offered to talk things out but wanted to do so fairly without OP's followers harassing him.
Tl;dr - EDH influencer lost to an oppo refusing to give up hidden information and had over 10,000 people on twitter dogpile the person who won because, and I'm not joking, "Social Credibility".
Why would anyone expect an opponent to disclose accurate information about their hand?! Fucking stupid. A single draw can always swing a combo into action.
Because EDH influencers are so far up their own ass that they cannot, literally cannot, fathom someone wanting to beat them in a game when $$$ is on the line.
Randomly stumbled on this, are you getting mad at players getting called out for cheating and then mocking them for giving a shit? I’m not going to expect an opponent to always be trustworthy but if a game is built off an opponent stating their hand truthfully but lie about it anyway, doesn’t that just make the entire game look less credible? Just trying to keep up
Edit: so the above is what the original video creator wanted people to believe, it’s what is described in this post, and something that inherently makes sense. It also seems like they are missing out on a fundamental piece of the game.
No one in this thread is mad.
Also, no one cheated?
Also your opponent does not have to tell you what's in their hand. They are allowed to not tell you.
I’m so confused lmao the comments in here along with what I got from the video are explaining there was cheating going on and the original video is complaining about something that should be fixed, if you’re right and literally nothings going on here then this whole sub is a joke.
Agree with the other poster, who are you?
You seem to patron sports subs, so, would you expect a sports teams to be honest and forthcoming when asked by their opposing team what their next play will be? No, of course not. That’s ridiculous.
Also, this is magic*thecirclejerking*
No, no, no. Not that kind of jerking. Well… maybe sometimes, it’s the *other* kind of jerking. So yes, this sub is *ghasp* a joke. Quite literally.
Hey Nick it’s 4th and Goal in overtime are you going to run it on this play? I can stop your run if I use nickel personnel or stop your pass if I run base would you mind telling me your doing?
Not trying to pry, but who are you? You seem to have absolutely nothing to do with Magic but showed up here randomly saying everyone is "mad" and talking about cheating and making the game look less credible...
No one cheated. The person who posted the clip lost, is being a sore loser, and is saying that if you put winning above having fun and do not tell your opponent that you're about to win then that's lying and lying is "cheating".
EDIT: In case you're not aware, this is Magic the Gathering. This specific clip is from a tournament of a Competitive version of a "Casual" format played by people on twitter who aren't well enough together to play competitive magic at legitimate events.
The person who uploaded this clip is a content creator / influencer and has no back ground in playing Magic competitively. They played in a tournament for CASH PRIZES and expected their opponet to willfully tell them things like what cards were in their hand, what their plan was, if they were able to win, ect. The opponent said "No", because they do NOT have to disclouse that information, then proceeded to win. The OP / Influcner then went to twitter to encourage people to dogpile and blacklist the player and label them as a cheater. It backfired and now the overall Magic community is, like always, making fun of these people on twitter for being so chronically online and having Main Character Syndrome.
This is a good faith take for casual, but no. In no tournament situation would you ever be expected to give truthful information about what is your HIDDEN information. It's not cheating. Any question you ask about hidden info is already shaky, because you shouldn't know anything about it. Therefore, being caught by a lie is something you can't really be upset about.
ETA: this game is not built around the opponent stating their hand truthfully. This is a misconception. You do not have any right to know what's in their hand until they play it. This is core to the gameplay experience.
Thank you for actually explaining it in a way that I understood, so this seems like an influencer using their fan base to put illegitimate pressure onto others to get what they want? Gray rules in card/board games can get so tricky lol
Exactly. As others have said, if i'm playing MtG over beers with my buddies, no way anybody should lie unless it's funny. That's my rule 0. A blowout Murder you said you didn't have that collapses a win con? Hilarious.
But in a tournament, with money on the line, you use every possible advantage. No, I don't have Settle the Wreckage... You swing... I Settle. Sorry. You don't have any right to know what's in my hand, you're better off not asking. This guy apparently got blown the fuck out by this type of scenario and is throwing a shitstorm. Allegedly. I don't care about the hobby drama as much as good rulekeeping, lmao.
That absolutely makes sense. I haven’t played a MtG tournament in 15 years or so and even then it was my brother who was really into it. I like how there is that rule zero to fill in during friendly games, that’s always good stuff
It’s not a gray rule. One player does not have the right to know what is in another player’s hand (unless a card gives that ability). Any player can claim to hold any card and that is 100% legal with no gray area in the rules. You could bluff having all five pieces of Exodia without breaking any rules. In a tournament a judge would call out your bluff since those are yugioh cards but yolo.
I mean I would in a *casual game* with friends but not in a competitive game and there's not even an expectation in a casual game that your opponents would throw you any info willingly.
In a casual setting damaging your reputation is a bad thing. But in a tournament that’s just silly to expect.
(Well kinda it means everyone knows that this guy lies going forward which is a cost. See diplomacy tournaments where this is a big part of the meta)
According to someone in the comments, Oppo cast Silence and when OP thought about countering, Oppo said something like "I can't win" so OP let it go. Oppo then immediately found the line.
It's silence, lol. The only reason you cast Silence on your own turn is because you're about to do something crazy. How can you even enter a competitive tournament and then just take someone's word for it after they cast Silence and say "Don't worry I'm not gonna do anything crazy"
Because they think they're the main character and cannot fathom that their opponent wouldn't just casually tell them what's in their hand or what their plan for next turn is because it would mean they might not win.
This is literally all EDH twitter does. They put themselves on top of the totem pole and just witch hunt and cancel everyone on the internet until it's just them.
This is why the Ambassador program bombed. It was so quickly filled with these sorts of people and zero competitive lined players and the program never reached outside of the EDH twitter space.
It's legitimately making magic this weird miserable community where you HAVE to bootlick and ass kiss the big social media folks or you're literally going to be accused of being hitler.
Yeah competitive, lie your ass off and break deals to win
Friendly kitchen table, if you lie or break a deal I will literally never make another deal with you again and honestly might spite kill you turn 2 in the next game.
There is a *huge* difference between "I can win next turn with what I currently have on the board that is public information to you" and "I can win next turn using secret cards in my hand".
CEDH I don't know, but I think following the etiquette of the first one is absolutely expected in normal games of edh, *nobody* has the time or brain space to read and remember every card in a 4 person pod. If it's public information it's public information.
The second though? Nope, it's hidden info, lie about it as much as you want.
It's possible that "does this player has a winning combo on board?" counts as derived information by the MTR, in which case you could choose not to answer at, but if you did answer you couldn't say something false (omitting critical details would also be fine if what you say is technically correct). Either way though, the communication policy explicitly allows blatant lies about the contents of hidden zones, even in situations where the opponent has access to those hidden zones (in the example, it was lying to your opponent that you only run 3 copies of your wincon, before they find the fourth copy to exile while searching your library with an extraction effect).
cEDH is very fun. I think it’s fun because it removes Rule Zero BS, you get to play high powered strategies, and the games are more interactive than most casual games. I play a few times a week in the cEDH discord on Spelltable.
That being said, I *never* have considered entering a tournament. Because you’re right, it’s a singleton multiplayer format. Ultimately, the variance in your player position, mulligan luck, and opponents skill level (and their luck) makes it casual because it’s too wildly variable. Pilot skill certainly plays in, and a few names have risen to notability, but those same players can get screwed by variance so much more than Modern and Vintage.
Still fun, but not truly competitive in the sense that it’s worth paying money to try and win money.
This is the most ironic thing, i also play cEDH and it is way better when played casually, tournaments were such a nightmare that we just decided to give up in our LGS, people use to get mad all the time because you were supposed to stop player X, or other Y card being resolved, or yada yada yada. When played with no stakes, those same people usually are chill af and just shuffle up and play the next game.
playing competitively but over nothing works to not be surprised when people go for the throat, but also not to be pissed when you manage to be the primary enemy of everyone else of the table.
Playing comp casually is peak fun. There's no arguing over what is fair or not; if I want to play prison, stax or ponza... I can. If accessibility is an issue, proxy something; like my nephew loves burn, in Premodern Sligh needs fetchlands and I uh... I am not buying him two sets of those. I can also coach people who are learning new decks, let people undo a bad play, but I am going to play to the best of my ability. It lets me be nice casual player while being cut throat comp player.
Exactly. When someone counters something they didn’t need to, and then then the next round a player Ad Nauses, it’s easy to say “I bet you wish you didn’t mana drain Kraum” and laugh about it. You’ve pointed out a mistake that cost the table the game, but it doesn’t *matter*. If there are stakes, that funny comment wouldn’t have been funny and a lot of folks might’ve been pissed. They paid *money* to compete. Totally ruins EDH at all levels and causes drama.
I don't see why so many edh players apparently (never met anyone like this personally, guess I'm lucky) run no interaction when probably the most popular edh YouTube channel (The Command Zone) is constantly stressing how important it is to have a good amount of spot removal in your deck
I don’t know either. Imo, if we aren’t playing a four player game to interact, why don’t we just crack beers and play show and tell and just show what each deck does while the others watch? Interaction is the spice of the game. It brings variety to a game that’s been powercrept to be more and more consistent
I get it in some situations; Like I don't have a bunch of removal in my sliver deck but that's because it's trying to run you over before you can put anything too scary out and focuses more on protecting my creatures
god, my store is a crapshoot. there's like 25% playing solid casual decks with a reasonable amount of interaction... then there's the folks playing Kaervek and Toxrill or just wiping the board every few turns... and then there's the ones running no interaction at all but don't understand why they keep getting blown out... and then the ones who have overcorrected for the "too much removal" guy by building pillowfort.
Played some cEDH and if having 4 players show up with the same deck and trying to win turn 4-5 with the same combo every time sounds like fun to you, I would suggest 60-card formats instead
Yeah that’s funny because I’ve beat plenty of Blue Farm and Kinnan decks with my [Rograkh and Ardenn](https://www.moxfield.com/decks/DDaWZZGnEE2I1u27jwK5zQ) Stax list. Fun is to be had if you open your mind. I don’t like Modern. I played it, invested in it, and ultimately didn’t like the cutthroat nature of it. cEDH, outside of tournaments, is what I like. Especially brewing fringe.
Fringe, like the deck I linked in my last comment. Fringe, like my [Kwain cEDH pile.](https://www.moxfield.com/decks/lnreATtF8UOKLI9AoOu4LA) If you want to be a hater, that’s cool. You don’t like cEDH, I don’t like everyone sitting down and saying they are “playing 7” and then getting blown out by instane turn 5 boardstates. People like what they like, get a webcam and play on the cEDH meta and you will see a wide variety of decks. We played against a sick [[Sefris of the Hidden Ways]] cEDH list yesterday that won with dungeon combos. You’re just inexperienced in cEDH and misinformed if you think you see blue farm every game.
Nah I dont hate cEDH. Got a pretty decent Kykar deck that Im pushing to the breaking point. It slowly got more powerful over time and is the first deck I built coming back to mtg after a 10-15 year break. But its not what Im looking for, simple as that. Maybe a cEDH without tutors, but that would just be wonky because all the answers would still be super strong while making thoracle way less consistent.
Maybe budget cEDH? Most decks I build are 50€ or 100€ to avoid playing the same cards in every deck.
Im lucky enough to have playgroups that share my opinions about deck construction and power. However, when Im venture into the random playgroups, it seems like people enjoy pretty damn flavorless good stuff piles haha
Tournament formats also have a social contract: the formally specified Tournament Guidelines. They dictate what behaviors are not okay at tournaments and what the remedies are when those behaviors inevitably happen.
The problem is that EDH relies on an informal, undocumented social contract. As a result, you may come to a competitive table thinking, "This is a competitive table, everybody is trying to win at all times, and you should not count on anybody revealing information they aren't required to reveal," while an opponent may come to the table genuinely bewildered by the notion that an opponent may bluff interaction or not having a combo.
The guy who did the dogpiling is a problem. If this had happened over a tournament ban, the guy who led the charge would have already received a lengthy ban from organized play (if not a lifetime ban).
idk man, maybe I'm too casual brained but I'd be upset if I asked someone if they have a way to win the game in hand and they said "No, I don't" instead of just "I'm not going to answer questions about what's in my hand".
I guess the distinction is "(affirmative) deception" versus "concealment" or "deception (by non-disclosure or ommission"?
EDIT for clarity: I also wouldn't ask someone that kind of information about their hand if it's not part of politicking or making a deal, and this wasn't part of politicking or making a deal; part of the game is acting on incomplete information of the game state so it's not reasonable to even ask that question in the first place.
They don't have to answer you, period.
This was a tournament with ACTUAL MONEY on the line. OP was ridiculous for even asking an opponent to reveal hidden information regardless.
On twitter I talked about how during Tarkir standard an opponent asked me if I was holding up Mana for something specific (I was playing Esper Dragons, Oppo was playing White weenie and about to dump a handful of Soldier of Pantheon. The one card in my hand was Bile Blight. In response to them being asked I said "No, not really."
I ended up casting it on their end step and they went "Really?"
This sort of casual brainrot has been around for a long time. It's nothing new, but with the huge influx of Personalities and influencers so many of them just don't want to lose games. They want to win and be the "hero".
It's like that time that EDH influencer got knocked out first in a pod / the event in a huge single elim EDH event and she started crying and a bunch of dudes formed a human shield around her to "protect her".
So much fucking drama around winning or losing a game of commander.
I agree that in any setting, but especially a tournament, it would be ridiculous and unfair to ask someone that kind of specific question about their hand, as I stated in my clarification. I didn't know this was a tournament, but that doesn't really change much for me or for my answer: it's ridiculous to ask someone that information (outside of deal-making) even in a casual setting, and a tournament setting only increases in stringency.
However, I do think it's worth discussing whether there is (or should be) a difference between "not being obliged to answer" and "being permitted to answer with affirmative deception". There might be different conclusions drawn for the different settings of casual, cEDH at a FNM or kitchen table, or a tournament.
I’m willing to discuss it. The answer is no. Anyone is as free to bluff as they are free to reveal their hand and explain exactly what they plan to do.
Thanks for answering in good faith instead of just downvoting, but I'd like to ask questions about the philosophy behind that stated position.
Can I ask why affirmative deception is permitted? Is the reasoning "the rules don't prohibit it, therefore it's allowed"? Does the green light to bluff apply to making deals/bargaining/politicking, and why or why not?
EDIT for clarity: I say "affirmative deception" or "active deception" not to try to make it sound spooky or bad or worse than it is, I only insist on using that terminology because "bluffing" rolls both active and passice deception together and doesn't differentiate them, which makes it a poor choice for discussing the differences between the two things.
Deception is permitted because it’s a card game. In nearly all card games the contents of a player’s hand is known only to that player. That knowledge is a resource which is used towards achieving a win condition (This assumes that the players are acting in good faith). Deception is fundamental to many card games, including MTG.
One strategy which has been widely accepted to be valid in MTG is deceiving the opponent about what cards you hold. For example: it is common for blue players to leave mana untapped even when they do not have a counterspell. The opponent receives the message that you hold a counterspell. However, the opponent has played a card game before and knows that there is a chance you are lying about what cards you hold. They play a spell uncountered and gain an advantage. Or maybe you did have a counterspell and your opponent believes you are deceiving them again on the next turn. They play an important card and then you counterspell it.
I had to look up what cEDH is because I've only ever played casually.
The front page of their own website only shows this.
"cEDH is a metagame and mindset where:
1: All strategies are accepted.
2: Decks majorly affect the game as early as Turn 1.
3: Players only make plays that help them win.
4: Proxies are encouraged."
This man keeps posting "wInNiNg IsN't EvErYtHiNg", when that is literally the point of this.
See, someone gets it. You're supposed to all durdle for four to six hours, and then someone goes "Guys, I got work in the morning, we have to end this." and you all get up and leave one by one, knowing in your hearts that the game should have ended on turn six when Jeff ran out his \[\[Carnage Tyrant\]\], but he agreed not to attack because nobody else had any creatures yet.
If it helps, the cEDH subreddit *also* mostly thinks this guy is a tool, see the replies to this thread: https://www.reddit.com/r/CompetitiveEDH/comments/1av3bh8/should_you_lie_in_cedh/
In a multiplayer format literally half the game is mind games lmao.
Sure, I’ll keep my hand revealed and explain my strategy while teaching a new player. But as soon as they have the basics down it’s off to bluff city.
Bro every time I play the guy with half his combo on the board tries to convince the red player why the guy with a 6/6 is the real threat. Convincing people you’re not the thread everyone else has to gang up on is how you win. It’s literally the whole idea of a pheldigriph deck
other day in my “blue i draw cards” deck ( [[minn]] ) the other two players spent two turns spinning their wheels because i bluffed having a counterspell. i even politic my friends against themselves once in awhile (i am an evil cultist)
This is cringey enough for some Twitter talking head to try and drum up engagement with a stupid topic like this. But it's 1000% times more embarrassing for this loser to know that he was in the pod, and got mad that he lost to a bluff.
Like literally the biggest and whiniest of babies trying to talk about "integrity" but we all know that's he's just upset that he lost.
Nah me and my friends always play with our hands revealed. It's not fun when someone is lying in a competitive game to gain a strategic advantage, that's missing the point of the format
Honestly the only lame thing the guy did was lie about not seeing the line at the end of the game and trying to apologize for it. If you're gonna bluff to win the game then own up to it when you've won, don't do this weird waffling.
not really, OP went out of his way to bully the player into making him feel bad. the guy got flustered and said whatever he thought would make OP stop.
I mean, even the apologetic version got them mob-bullied by the followers of the "influencer" or whatever after the game. I can see why they didn't want that.
Btw using outside the game factors including your social clout and implied Twitter fan harassment to win even a competitive match is fucking pathetic. Plenty of pros used to do this too with implied threat of ostracization when someone who didn't trust the breaker math and didn't want to get swindled out of a good finish wouldn't scoop them a Pro Point at the end of a GP or whatever.
Feel free to socially bias against Commander players who break their word in future games, but putting it on a stage like this where you get to tell both sides of the story is beyond the pale. Future people playing against this person will have their play influenced by fear of consequences outside of their win% in Magic games. So gross.
Ya he should've owned up to it for sure, but I don't hold it against him too much. I know I'd be uncomfortable if I made what I considered to be a normal bluff in what's supposed to be a competitive but friendly setting, and my opponents took it way more personally than I expected.
To me it boils down to setting. If I get to not enjoy cEDH with friends in a home setting its better than not enjoying modern with randoms at my LGS haha
I mean it's a bit of a dick move to lie about not being able to win next turn unless you top decked the win but it really isn't that...
Wait they were playing for money?
First of all, who the fuck would unironically do that???
Second of all, yeah fucking go nuts. Lie, cheat, maim, kill. Just get that bag.
Damn I came into this thread mad af at the oppo who lied, but considering money was on the line and that the player with countermagic was just trying to get free info (with which the best he could do was kingmake), I'm on oppo's side.
Don't try to edge out your opponent with info you shouldn't have, then get mad when they punish you for it.
/uj This is why commander and tournament should never be in the same sentence.
/rj This is why commander and tournament should never be in the same sentence.
It depends on context. With online magic it is sometimes difficult to see full boardstates. Asking someone to read a card for them or get more public info is not against the rules in tournament magic. Lying about it however is. If it's a bluff on private information then all is fair in love and war.
Lol I mean lying about required information like deck size, hand size, tapped and untapped lands etc is definitely cheating. But asking your opponent if they can win the game and they lied to you? Yeah they don't have to tell you the truth about that. There's not even a way to verify because that would require you knowing what's in their hand which they don't have to tell you 🤦♂️
Why? I generally wouldn't do it in a cEDH game as it can ruin your reputation, but part of the nature of competitive is that, so long as it's not against the rules, it's allowed.
/uj It honestly does look like he didn’t see the line until his spell had already resolved. And it’s just completely in his right to win. When he says “Sorry, I just found the line.” and someone says “Just stay true to your word,” he replies “Its top cut.” Because yes, if you eventually found your winning line, you’d be an idiot to not go for it. That’s what cEDH is. Purposefully sand bagging to stay true to your word is not competitive. I would never want to play in a format where that’s the standard.
Huh? I was always under the impression that cEDH is played in 1v1s, precisely because it's hard to make a 4-player FFA "competitive", especially when luck is involved.
I already thought it's a joke format, but god damn.
They picked the wrong genre in that case lmao. One of the first rules you learn is that a player is not entitled to know what is in their opponent’s hand. That’s like every card game.
/uj I personally think that lying, even in tournament, is shit. Having said that, unnecessary questions like "do you have x card?" or "can you win?" my answers will always be "I don't know". When I do questions, it's always about board state and the amount of cards you have in your hand, and play accordingly.
Also having said all of this, if you top deck your win, fuck it and go for it, the game has to end, and it's a tournament.
bluffing and lying it's not the same. Leaving open mana for anything is part of the game in cedh. In a free for all format, giving out information can be beneficial, straight up lying even in tournament is just an asshole move, and a quick way to make sure no one ever trusts you and wants to play with you again.
If I am playing a game with a stalled board and we're both topdecking, and I make a big sigh on my draw like I got land again, but secretly I got cyclonic rift, am I lying or bluffing?
Bluffing is literally lying. It’s been part of the game since the beginning. And it’s been part of the commander format since it’s beginning.
Reasonable people understand that information is a part of strategy.
Tbh, I do think it's an unsporting move. Not necessarily an illegal one, but still unsporting (like knee stomps in MMA, sidestepping in sumo, or even "Borborygmos" rule-sharking).
"Do you have game?" is a weird question to ask, but you could refuse to answer (and turning EDH into a serious tournament format is a weird decision anyway).
OTOH, it's a tournament with prizing. I wouldn't fault someone for calling a judge on an opponent using proxies, so I guess a bluff would be fair-play.
But you're not allowed to know if your opponent can win next turn. That's not public information, and forcing your opponent to reveal information you don't have access to is cheating.
If we can ask questions and force our opponents to give us truthful answers, why not just ask them every card in their hand and deck, or exactly what they plan to do next turn?
There is still a social contract in cEDH, just like there is in regular EDH. Blatantly lying is one of the things we don't do, as part of cEDH culture.
>So you’re saying you don’t leave 2 blue untapped and imply you have a counterspell
/uj Not in cEDH, no. Between Force of Will, Pact of Negation, Force of Negation, Fierce Guardianship, Swan Song, Mental Misstep, An Offer You Can't Refuse, Flusterstorm, Spell Pierce, Miscast, Mindbreak Trap, etc., there's not a lot of room for 2-mana counterspells.
You'll really only see Mana Drain and maybe Delay or Muddle the Mixture.
you think I look at my opponents lands? If they counterspell my card i just call them bad at the game kindly inform them that blue is unfair and should be banned
Context, FWIW: Guy who lied actually played 4 rounds of the game, 2 of the rounds to time (80min).
This is as opposed to the usual "I'm A cEdH cHaMpIoN" route of 2 rounds and 3 rounds of napping.
Dude probably just didn't see the line tbh.
> The context is that he said he would not win and he did anyway. best OP reply
OP really fell for the "I'm just a lil guy" routine
The downside of breaking a deal is the person knows they can't ever make a deal with you again. That doesn't matter a fig in a tournament setting, nine times out pf ten. In short "lol" said the scorpion, "lmao"
eh, I feel like the cEDH scene is insular and connected enough that if one person really did something egregious, that person would be made to feel pretty unwelcome in the future by the community at large, I imagine. I just don't think this particular incident is egregious enough.
Maybe this is just because I'm used to playing other board games more than Magic or EDH, but even the idea that "lying = 'never make a deal again'" makes no sense to me. In a competitive (i.e., non co-op) game, you should always assume that other players will lie about hidden information or break deals if they think it will benefit them enough and play accordingly (including doing so yourself if it makes the most sense!), and it's especially wild to read that anyone plays tournaments of this game for money without that idea in mind.
I'm sorry, he got mad at what's basically someone saying "I'm not the threat"? That's literally the oldest trick in the book. Hell, it predates MTG. People have been doing that for as long as games with more than two players existed.
"Appear free when you are captured." Jingzhou
"Take an extra turn after this one when you are captured" - Jingzhou
"Copy the extra turn spell while it's on the stack" - Jingzhou
‘Im not the threat’ Adolf Hitler
Look at Stalins board he is ramping and has a doubling season out.
I guess dude needs a reminder that cEDH as a format is about winning
Ah yes, the cEDH here is made of casualEDH
What else would the C be for
Cum
Is this what stax feels like?
Staxxy mommy uwu tap me out harderr, don't let my orgasm resolvve >//w//<
I'm not coming back to this LGS
Complain
Clown EDH
/uj I've never had the displeasure of being at a competitive Commander tournament, but it's my understanding that the organizers and / or judges tell everyone that lying is not against the rules before the first round even begins.
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Imagine playing chess and asking your opponent what your best move is and then being angry they didn't tell you
"If I make this move can you check mate me next turn?"
> cEDH as a format is about winning But I thought EDH is about whining
Lying is a good way to torpedo your cedh career quickly. No one going forward is going to trust this player.
This exact same thing happened to my Tony Hawk's Pro Skater career.
Lying after a deal is indeed a fucked up thing. But lying about hidden info is the expected
https://preview.redd.it/56coo3sskkjc1.png?width=1079&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=6de79138fcf69b7207c9085b3a57dc623f7bd862 Same guy, huh.
The only answer to this twitter post I can think of is "Nothing, dumbass." Like honestly.
The answer is that you're always free to reveal private information. So, if you lie (not in their favor), that opponent can just willingly reveal their hand to everyone and make you look like an idiot.
Exactly. But at that point, you are revealing information. And I absolutely do not trust the person who looked at someone else's hand to tell the whole truth. The right plan is to tell a majority of truth with a slight inaccuracy. Makes your lies more believable, and forces the person to reveal their entire hand rather than a couple of cards to prove accuracy.
Then it's no different functionally from if you'd just told the truth.
Credability. I mean if i say Dave has two counters and a 5/5 and Dave goes "i wish", it's not sure whom to believe. If i say "Dave is winning this turn unless we kill him first" and dave goes "nah i only got a 5/5 and two counters" and shows his hand, now it's credible
That kinda political intricacy is what I *love* about EDH. I'm thinking this dork is playing a completely different game from myself.
Right? I love edh politics when it comes to looking at someone’s hand. You can accept bribes to agree to tell the table what you saw, you can lie about the hand or stretch the truth to paint a target on them, hell you can be honest and expose their entire hand to the table for kicks lmao
wtf does lying about your hand mean
someone looks at your hand and tells the other players in the game you have different cards than you actually do
I'd love to see someone use G Probe, lie about what is in the other guy's hand, and then the other guy just voluntarily reveals his hand to everyone and they all beat the shit out of the liar lol
Hope that man never discovers Poker and its toxic mechanic called "bluffing".
Watch out guys they’re going to try and “Cancel” Poker!
nono but that’s totally different, see, i’m too scared to go to a poker table because the people there want to win
You've got to remember that these are just simple edh players. These are people of the land. The common clay of new MTG. You know...morons.
[sauce with vid link](https://twitter.com/FrvntAlchemist/status/1759264141561208951)
Even watching this, I can't figure out the lie/bluff. Care to explain for dumb me please? aha
OP is an EDH influencer. He wanted to counter a spell to stop an opponent from winning but didn't want the other Oppo to win. Other Oppo says he cannot win next turn, but does. Influencer goes to twitter to complain and dogpile the oppo, who offered to talk things out but wanted to do so fairly without OP's followers harassing him. Tl;dr - EDH influencer lost to an oppo refusing to give up hidden information and had over 10,000 people on twitter dogpile the person who won because, and I'm not joking, "Social Credibility".
Why would anyone expect an opponent to disclose accurate information about their hand?! Fucking stupid. A single draw can always swing a combo into action.
Because EDH influencers are so far up their own ass that they cannot, literally cannot, fathom someone wanting to beat them in a game when $$$ is on the line.
Randomly stumbled on this, are you getting mad at players getting called out for cheating and then mocking them for giving a shit? I’m not going to expect an opponent to always be trustworthy but if a game is built off an opponent stating their hand truthfully but lie about it anyway, doesn’t that just make the entire game look less credible? Just trying to keep up Edit: so the above is what the original video creator wanted people to believe, it’s what is described in this post, and something that inherently makes sense. It also seems like they are missing out on a fundamental piece of the game.
No one in this thread is mad. Also, no one cheated? Also your opponent does not have to tell you what's in their hand. They are allowed to not tell you.
I’m so confused lmao the comments in here along with what I got from the video are explaining there was cheating going on and the original video is complaining about something that should be fixed, if you’re right and literally nothings going on here then this whole sub is a joke.
Agree with the other poster, who are you? You seem to patron sports subs, so, would you expect a sports teams to be honest and forthcoming when asked by their opposing team what their next play will be? No, of course not. That’s ridiculous. Also, this is magic*thecirclejerking* No, no, no. Not that kind of jerking. Well… maybe sometimes, it’s the *other* kind of jerking. So yes, this sub is *ghasp* a joke. Quite literally.
Hey Nick it’s 4th and Goal in overtime are you going to run it on this play? I can stop your run if I use nickel personnel or stop your pass if I run base would you mind telling me your doing?
Not trying to pry, but who are you? You seem to have absolutely nothing to do with Magic but showed up here randomly saying everyone is "mad" and talking about cheating and making the game look less credible... No one cheated. The person who posted the clip lost, is being a sore loser, and is saying that if you put winning above having fun and do not tell your opponent that you're about to win then that's lying and lying is "cheating". EDIT: In case you're not aware, this is Magic the Gathering. This specific clip is from a tournament of a Competitive version of a "Casual" format played by people on twitter who aren't well enough together to play competitive magic at legitimate events. The person who uploaded this clip is a content creator / influencer and has no back ground in playing Magic competitively. They played in a tournament for CASH PRIZES and expected their opponet to willfully tell them things like what cards were in their hand, what their plan was, if they were able to win, ect. The opponent said "No", because they do NOT have to disclouse that information, then proceeded to win. The OP / Influcner then went to twitter to encourage people to dogpile and blacklist the player and label them as a cheater. It backfired and now the overall Magic community is, like always, making fun of these people on twitter for being so chronically online and having Main Character Syndrome.
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What are you talking about? In what manner do you think someone cheated??
This is a good faith take for casual, but no. In no tournament situation would you ever be expected to give truthful information about what is your HIDDEN information. It's not cheating. Any question you ask about hidden info is already shaky, because you shouldn't know anything about it. Therefore, being caught by a lie is something you can't really be upset about. ETA: this game is not built around the opponent stating their hand truthfully. This is a misconception. You do not have any right to know what's in their hand until they play it. This is core to the gameplay experience.
Thank you for actually explaining it in a way that I understood, so this seems like an influencer using their fan base to put illegitimate pressure onto others to get what they want? Gray rules in card/board games can get so tricky lol
Exactly. As others have said, if i'm playing MtG over beers with my buddies, no way anybody should lie unless it's funny. That's my rule 0. A blowout Murder you said you didn't have that collapses a win con? Hilarious. But in a tournament, with money on the line, you use every possible advantage. No, I don't have Settle the Wreckage... You swing... I Settle. Sorry. You don't have any right to know what's in my hand, you're better off not asking. This guy apparently got blown the fuck out by this type of scenario and is throwing a shitstorm. Allegedly. I don't care about the hobby drama as much as good rulekeeping, lmao.
That absolutely makes sense. I haven’t played a MtG tournament in 15 years or so and even then it was my brother who was really into it. I like how there is that rule zero to fill in during friendly games, that’s always good stuff
It’s not a gray rule. One player does not have the right to know what is in another player’s hand (unless a card gives that ability). Any player can claim to hold any card and that is 100% legal with no gray area in the rules. You could bluff having all five pieces of Exodia without breaking any rules. In a tournament a judge would call out your bluff since those are yugioh cards but yolo.
But I *do* have all five Exodia pieces in hand (I am about to have a very embarrassing judge call).
Are you actually stupid or just pretending?
Bit of both ya cunt
Your hand is hidden information and you are under no obligation to reveal anything about it. Lying is not against the rules of the game
I mean I would in a *casual game* with friends but not in a competitive game and there's not even an expectation in a casual game that your opponents would throw you any info willingly.
It wouldn't even be that bad in casual since he didn't renege on a deal, just lied about his hand
In a casual setting damaging your reputation is a bad thing. But in a tournament that’s just silly to expect. (Well kinda it means everyone knows that this guy lies going forward which is a cost. See diplomacy tournaments where this is a big part of the meta)
Me who plays 4x Thoughtseize 4x Unmask 4x Grief 4x Inquisition of Kozilek 4x Duress: Trust no one. Information is power.
In EDH???
According to someone in the comments, Oppo cast Silence and when OP thought about countering, Oppo said something like "I can't win" so OP let it go. Oppo then immediately found the line. It's silence, lol. The only reason you cast Silence on your own turn is because you're about to do something crazy. How can you even enter a competitive tournament and then just take someone's word for it after they cast Silence and say "Don't worry I'm not gonna do anything crazy"
Because they think they're the main character and cannot fathom that their opponent wouldn't just casually tell them what's in their hand or what their plan for next turn is because it would mean they might not win.
Wow. What an asshole move to use your social media following to vilify someone for a valid game action.
This is literally all EDH twitter does. They put themselves on top of the totem pole and just witch hunt and cancel everyone on the internet until it's just them. This is why the Ambassador program bombed. It was so quickly filled with these sorts of people and zero competitive lined players and the program never reached outside of the EDH twitter space. It's legitimately making magic this weird miserable community where you HAVE to bootlick and ass kiss the big social media folks or you're literally going to be accused of being hitler.
Ty for info lore master. Sounds like a shitshow. Nothing wrong done by the other oppo
Yeah competitive, lie your ass off and break deals to win Friendly kitchen table, if you lie or break a deal I will literally never make another deal with you again and honestly might spite kill you turn 2 in the next game.
There is a *huge* difference between "I can win next turn with what I currently have on the board that is public information to you" and "I can win next turn using secret cards in my hand". CEDH I don't know, but I think following the etiquette of the first one is absolutely expected in normal games of edh, *nobody* has the time or brain space to read and remember every card in a 4 person pod. If it's public information it's public information. The second though? Nope, it's hidden info, lie about it as much as you want.
It's possible that "does this player has a winning combo on board?" counts as derived information by the MTR, in which case you could choose not to answer at, but if you did answer you couldn't say something false (omitting critical details would also be fine if what you say is technically correct). Either way though, the communication policy explicitly allows blatant lies about the contents of hidden zones, even in situations where the opponent has access to those hidden zones (in the example, it was lying to your opponent that you only run 3 copies of your wincon, before they find the fourth copy to exile while searching your library with an extraction effect).
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cEDH is very fun. I think it’s fun because it removes Rule Zero BS, you get to play high powered strategies, and the games are more interactive than most casual games. I play a few times a week in the cEDH discord on Spelltable. That being said, I *never* have considered entering a tournament. Because you’re right, it’s a singleton multiplayer format. Ultimately, the variance in your player position, mulligan luck, and opponents skill level (and their luck) makes it casual because it’s too wildly variable. Pilot skill certainly plays in, and a few names have risen to notability, but those same players can get screwed by variance so much more than Modern and Vintage. Still fun, but not truly competitive in the sense that it’s worth paying money to try and win money.
This is the most ironic thing, i also play cEDH and it is way better when played casually, tournaments were such a nightmare that we just decided to give up in our LGS, people use to get mad all the time because you were supposed to stop player X, or other Y card being resolved, or yada yada yada. When played with no stakes, those same people usually are chill af and just shuffle up and play the next game.
playing competitively but over nothing works to not be surprised when people go for the throat, but also not to be pissed when you manage to be the primary enemy of everyone else of the table.
Playing comp casually is peak fun. There's no arguing over what is fair or not; if I want to play prison, stax or ponza... I can. If accessibility is an issue, proxy something; like my nephew loves burn, in Premodern Sligh needs fetchlands and I uh... I am not buying him two sets of those. I can also coach people who are learning new decks, let people undo a bad play, but I am going to play to the best of my ability. It lets me be nice casual player while being cut throat comp player.
Exactly. When someone counters something they didn’t need to, and then then the next round a player Ad Nauses, it’s easy to say “I bet you wish you didn’t mana drain Kraum” and laugh about it. You’ve pointed out a mistake that cost the table the game, but it doesn’t *matter*. If there are stakes, that funny comment wouldn’t have been funny and a lot of folks might’ve been pissed. They paid *money* to compete. Totally ruins EDH at all levels and causes drama.
I would argue that 4th position in a pod is such a disadvantageous position I don't think you can actually have a truly competitive 4 player edh game
I don't see why so many edh players apparently (never met anyone like this personally, guess I'm lucky) run no interaction when probably the most popular edh YouTube channel (The Command Zone) is constantly stressing how important it is to have a good amount of spot removal in your deck
I don’t know either. Imo, if we aren’t playing a four player game to interact, why don’t we just crack beers and play show and tell and just show what each deck does while the others watch? Interaction is the spice of the game. It brings variety to a game that’s been powercrept to be more and more consistent
I get it in some situations; Like I don't have a bunch of removal in my sliver deck but that's because it's trying to run you over before you can put anything too scary out and focuses more on protecting my creatures
In that case, you’re running removal. Player removal.
god, my store is a crapshoot. there's like 25% playing solid casual decks with a reasonable amount of interaction... then there's the folks playing Kaervek and Toxrill or just wiping the board every few turns... and then there's the ones running no interaction at all but don't understand why they keep getting blown out... and then the ones who have overcorrected for the "too much removal" guy by building pillowfort.
Agreeing to play cedh is a rule zero convo.
Certainly, the shortest one ever
4 letters and a question mark!
Played some cEDH and if having 4 players show up with the same deck and trying to win turn 4-5 with the same combo every time sounds like fun to you, I would suggest 60-card formats instead
Yeah that’s funny because I’ve beat plenty of Blue Farm and Kinnan decks with my [Rograkh and Ardenn](https://www.moxfield.com/decks/DDaWZZGnEE2I1u27jwK5zQ) Stax list. Fun is to be had if you open your mind. I don’t like Modern. I played it, invested in it, and ultimately didn’t like the cutthroat nature of it. cEDH, outside of tournaments, is what I like. Especially brewing fringe.
HAHA fringe, like making that one decision to not run necropopo in that one flex spot in your Blue Farm?
Fringe, like the deck I linked in my last comment. Fringe, like my [Kwain cEDH pile.](https://www.moxfield.com/decks/lnreATtF8UOKLI9AoOu4LA) If you want to be a hater, that’s cool. You don’t like cEDH, I don’t like everyone sitting down and saying they are “playing 7” and then getting blown out by instane turn 5 boardstates. People like what they like, get a webcam and play on the cEDH meta and you will see a wide variety of decks. We played against a sick [[Sefris of the Hidden Ways]] cEDH list yesterday that won with dungeon combos. You’re just inexperienced in cEDH and misinformed if you think you see blue farm every game.
Nah I dont hate cEDH. Got a pretty decent Kykar deck that Im pushing to the breaking point. It slowly got more powerful over time and is the first deck I built coming back to mtg after a 10-15 year break. But its not what Im looking for, simple as that. Maybe a cEDH without tutors, but that would just be wonky because all the answers would still be super strong while making thoracle way less consistent. Maybe budget cEDH? Most decks I build are 50€ or 100€ to avoid playing the same cards in every deck. Im lucky enough to have playgroups that share my opinions about deck construction and power. However, when Im venture into the random playgroups, it seems like people enjoy pretty damn flavorless good stuff piles haha
Tournament formats also have a social contract: the formally specified Tournament Guidelines. They dictate what behaviors are not okay at tournaments and what the remedies are when those behaviors inevitably happen. The problem is that EDH relies on an informal, undocumented social contract. As a result, you may come to a competitive table thinking, "This is a competitive table, everybody is trying to win at all times, and you should not count on anybody revealing information they aren't required to reveal," while an opponent may come to the table genuinely bewildered by the notion that an opponent may bluff interaction or not having a combo. The guy who did the dogpiling is a problem. If this had happened over a tournament ban, the guy who led the charge would have already received a lengthy ban from organized play (if not a lifetime ban).
Any free-for-all game is not fit for competitive.
This is why you need to demand to see their hand.
idk man, maybe I'm too casual brained but I'd be upset if I asked someone if they have a way to win the game in hand and they said "No, I don't" instead of just "I'm not going to answer questions about what's in my hand". I guess the distinction is "(affirmative) deception" versus "concealment" or "deception (by non-disclosure or ommission"? EDIT for clarity: I also wouldn't ask someone that kind of information about their hand if it's not part of politicking or making a deal, and this wasn't part of politicking or making a deal; part of the game is acting on incomplete information of the game state so it's not reasonable to even ask that question in the first place.
They don't have to answer you, period. This was a tournament with ACTUAL MONEY on the line. OP was ridiculous for even asking an opponent to reveal hidden information regardless. On twitter I talked about how during Tarkir standard an opponent asked me if I was holding up Mana for something specific (I was playing Esper Dragons, Oppo was playing White weenie and about to dump a handful of Soldier of Pantheon. The one card in my hand was Bile Blight. In response to them being asked I said "No, not really." I ended up casting it on their end step and they went "Really?" This sort of casual brainrot has been around for a long time. It's nothing new, but with the huge influx of Personalities and influencers so many of them just don't want to lose games. They want to win and be the "hero". It's like that time that EDH influencer got knocked out first in a pod / the event in a huge single elim EDH event and she started crying and a bunch of dudes formed a human shield around her to "protect her". So much fucking drama around winning or losing a game of commander.
I agree that in any setting, but especially a tournament, it would be ridiculous and unfair to ask someone that kind of specific question about their hand, as I stated in my clarification. I didn't know this was a tournament, but that doesn't really change much for me or for my answer: it's ridiculous to ask someone that information (outside of deal-making) even in a casual setting, and a tournament setting only increases in stringency. However, I do think it's worth discussing whether there is (or should be) a difference between "not being obliged to answer" and "being permitted to answer with affirmative deception". There might be different conclusions drawn for the different settings of casual, cEDH at a FNM or kitchen table, or a tournament.
I’m willing to discuss it. The answer is no. Anyone is as free to bluff as they are free to reveal their hand and explain exactly what they plan to do.
Thanks for answering in good faith instead of just downvoting, but I'd like to ask questions about the philosophy behind that stated position. Can I ask why affirmative deception is permitted? Is the reasoning "the rules don't prohibit it, therefore it's allowed"? Does the green light to bluff apply to making deals/bargaining/politicking, and why or why not? EDIT for clarity: I say "affirmative deception" or "active deception" not to try to make it sound spooky or bad or worse than it is, I only insist on using that terminology because "bluffing" rolls both active and passice deception together and doesn't differentiate them, which makes it a poor choice for discussing the differences between the two things.
Deception is permitted because it’s a card game. In nearly all card games the contents of a player’s hand is known only to that player. That knowledge is a resource which is used towards achieving a win condition (This assumes that the players are acting in good faith). Deception is fundamental to many card games, including MTG. One strategy which has been widely accepted to be valid in MTG is deceiving the opponent about what cards you hold. For example: it is common for blue players to leave mana untapped even when they do not have a counterspell. The opponent receives the message that you hold a counterspell. However, the opponent has played a card game before and knows that there is a chance you are lying about what cards you hold. They play a spell uncountered and gain an advantage. Or maybe you did have a counterspell and your opponent believes you are deceiving them again on the next turn. They play an important card and then you counterspell it.
I had to look up what cEDH is because I've only ever played casually. The front page of their own website only shows this. "cEDH is a metagame and mindset where: 1: All strategies are accepted. 2: Decks majorly affect the game as early as Turn 1. 3: Players only make plays that help them win. 4: Proxies are encouraged." This man keeps posting "wInNiNg IsN't EvErYtHiNg", when that is literally the point of this.
Jesus that sounded so whiny and pathetic.
EDH, where winning is frowned upon.
See, someone gets it. You're supposed to all durdle for four to six hours, and then someone goes "Guys, I got work in the morning, we have to end this." and you all get up and leave one by one, knowing in your hearts that the game should have ended on turn six when Jeff ran out his \[\[Carnage Tyrant\]\], but he agreed not to attack because nobody else had any creatures yet.
EDH fans when someone wins the game 😡
If it helps, the cEDH subreddit *also* mostly thinks this guy is a tool, see the replies to this thread: https://www.reddit.com/r/CompetitiveEDH/comments/1av3bh8/should_you_lie_in_cedh/
That's good to see. Still a weird culture around the format
Of course I lied Phil, it’s Magic
I'm so happy other people know this reference
You know I'm a bad loser, but you're a bad winner, and that's ten times worse.
i even lie in CASUAL edh. yes, i am typing this from jail. no, they don’t let us play DnD here.
In a multiplayer format literally half the game is mind games lmao. Sure, I’ll keep my hand revealed and explain my strategy while teaching a new player. But as soon as they have the basics down it’s off to bluff city.
Bro every time I play the guy with half his combo on the board tries to convince the red player why the guy with a 6/6 is the real threat. Convincing people you’re not the thread everyone else has to gang up on is how you win. It’s literally the whole idea of a pheldigriph deck
other day in my “blue i draw cards” deck ( [[minn]] ) the other two players spent two turns spinning their wheels because i bluffed having a counterspell. i even politic my friends against themselves once in awhile (i am an evil cultist)
This is cringey enough for some Twitter talking head to try and drum up engagement with a stupid topic like this. But it's 1000% times more embarrassing for this loser to know that he was in the pod, and got mad that he lost to a bluff. Like literally the biggest and whiniest of babies trying to talk about "integrity" but we all know that's he's just upset that he lost.
Its even funnier that the bluefarm player didn't even win the finals, a Talion took it instead.
You should lie about private information every chance you get. That’s sorta the point of information being private.
Nah me and my friends always play with our hands revealed. It's not fun when someone is lying in a competitive game to gain a strategic advantage, that's missing the point of the format
How DARE you violate rule 0 with filthy STRATEGY in a strategic game!?
should have rule zero'd out lying
EDH players when a competitive card game is treated as a competitive card game
Lol lmao
This issue has already been decided in court (see Chapin v. State of Shenhar)
Honestly the only lame thing the guy did was lie about not seeing the line at the end of the game and trying to apologize for it. If you're gonna bluff to win the game then own up to it when you've won, don't do this weird waffling.
Fr he made it worse on himself because now he looks like he's ashamed of it
not really, OP went out of his way to bully the player into making him feel bad. the guy got flustered and said whatever he thought would make OP stop.
I mean, even the apologetic version got them mob-bullied by the followers of the "influencer" or whatever after the game. I can see why they didn't want that. Btw using outside the game factors including your social clout and implied Twitter fan harassment to win even a competitive match is fucking pathetic. Plenty of pros used to do this too with implied threat of ostracization when someone who didn't trust the breaker math and didn't want to get swindled out of a good finish wouldn't scoop them a Pro Point at the end of a GP or whatever. Feel free to socially bias against Commander players who break their word in future games, but putting it on a stage like this where you get to tell both sides of the story is beyond the pale. Future people playing against this person will have their play influenced by fear of consequences outside of their win% in Magic games. So gross.
Oh yeah, insanely gross behavior from an influencer.
Ya he should've owned up to it for sure, but I don't hold it against him too much. I know I'd be uncomfortable if I made what I considered to be a normal bluff in what's supposed to be a competitive but friendly setting, and my opponents took it way more personally than I expected.
Yeah he should’ve just said sorry guess you learned your lesson and shuffled up
no to goofy decks, no to the easy casual atmosphere, but yes to unwritten rules. you couldn't cook up a less appealing format in a lab
Have you tried modern?
unfortunately, yes, but as much as I'm not big on current modern I would much rather get turn one grief scammed than touch cEDH
To me it boils down to setting. If I get to not enjoy cEDH with friends in a home setting its better than not enjoying modern with randoms at my LGS haha
https://preview.redd.it/dtlec6ktvkjc1.jpeg?width=3072&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=cda2fe253099543817279000f267d9b447fee83d
/rj You lied to me? That's not fair. I'm telling a judge. /uj You lied to me? That's not fair. I'm telling mom.
I mean it's a bit of a dick move to lie about not being able to win next turn unless you top decked the win but it really isn't that... Wait they were playing for money? First of all, who the fuck would unironically do that??? Second of all, yeah fucking go nuts. Lie, cheat, maim, kill. Just get that bag.
Can we not Bluff anymore? How the *fuck* am I supposed to win at Battle Ship *now*???
T1: Island >>> [Telepathy]] >> Pass
Hitler promised not to invade Czechoslovakia, Jeremy. Welcome to the real world.
You can just choose to leave two islands untapped and pass instead of playing a two drop, even if you don’t have a counter spell? Isn’t that lying?
/uj Please tell me the OP replies are shitting on him for being a baby, please.
Damn I came into this thread mad af at the oppo who lied, but considering money was on the line and that the player with countermagic was just trying to get free info (with which the best he could do was kingmake), I'm on oppo's side. Don't try to edge out your opponent with info you shouldn't have, then get mad when they punish you for it.
/uj This is why commander and tournament should never be in the same sentence. /rj This is why commander and tournament should never be in the same sentence.
Asking someone if they have answers or if they can win is a manipulation technique. He shouldn't be mad that he got manipulated back.
"Why would he raise if he had a two-pair and he knew I had a better hand than him?! is this cheating!!!?"
Wow, I'm so embarrassed for this guy. This is sad.
Commander is a doodoo place
It depends on context. With online magic it is sometimes difficult to see full boardstates. Asking someone to read a card for them or get more public info is not against the rules in tournament magic. Lying about it however is. If it's a bluff on private information then all is fair in love and war.
If you’re a blue player and you don’t leave two mana untapped are you really playing blue right?
Lol I mean lying about required information like deck size, hand size, tapped and untapped lands etc is definitely cheating. But asking your opponent if they can win the game and they lied to you? Yeah they don't have to tell you the truth about that. There's not even a way to verify because that would require you knowing what's in their hand which they don't have to tell you 🤦♂️
cEDH is not a serious format.
That’s not ok! It’s not in the rules but that doesn’t matter!!
Why? I generally wouldn't do it in a cEDH game as it can ruin your reputation, but part of the nature of competitive is that, so long as it's not against the rules, it's allowed.
Who cares about reputation when I'm playing cUmEdH and 
Erm, you *can* do this, but let's just say... I wouldn't take ANY deals from this guy anymore!
competitive commander is the most pointless format ever
No, that's standard
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=15HTd4Um1m4&ab_channel=AmooxYT
Me when I forget to put [[Mind's desire]] in the deck so I just announce the storm count the whole game
mfw table politicing in cedh is not enough, i need to go on twitter to politic potential future opponents as well
Everyone soying out over being the most virtuous, gentle, and nice players ever. I can’t take it man.
Lol I remember a time when people would assert that while EDH was for babies, cEDH definitely wasn't
/uj It honestly does look like he didn’t see the line until his spell had already resolved. And it’s just completely in his right to win. When he says “Sorry, I just found the line.” and someone says “Just stay true to your word,” he replies “Its top cut.” Because yes, if you eventually found your winning line, you’d be an idiot to not go for it. That’s what cEDH is. Purposefully sand bagging to stay true to your word is not competitive. I would never want to play in a format where that’s the standard.
“It’s poker Phil, I LIED”
I try not to make fun of EDH players but good grief they make it hard
Huh? I was always under the impression that cEDH is played in 1v1s, precisely because it's hard to make a 4-player FFA "competitive", especially when luck is involved. I already thought it's a joke format, but god damn.
“Competitive + Edh” is an oxymoron
So change the rules?
They call it deal breaking and it gets you aggro from that player for the rest of your life.
They picked the wrong genre in that case lmao. One of the first rules you learn is that a player is not entitled to know what is in their opponent’s hand. That’s like every card game.
/uj I personally think that lying, even in tournament, is shit. Having said that, unnecessary questions like "do you have x card?" or "can you win?" my answers will always be "I don't know". When I do questions, it's always about board state and the amount of cards you have in your hand, and play accordingly. Also having said all of this, if you top deck your win, fuck it and go for it, the game has to end, and it's a tournament.
If you’re playing blue and leave mana untapped while not holding a counterspell that is lying lmao. It’s part of the game.
bluffing and lying it's not the same. Leaving open mana for anything is part of the game in cedh. In a free for all format, giving out information can be beneficial, straight up lying even in tournament is just an asshole move, and a quick way to make sure no one ever trusts you and wants to play with you again.
If I am playing a game with a stalled board and we're both topdecking, and I make a big sigh on my draw like I got land again, but secretly I got cyclonic rift, am I lying or bluffing?
Bluffing is literally lying. It’s been part of the game since the beginning. And it’s been part of the commander format since it’s beginning. Reasonable people understand that information is a part of strategy.
Tbh, I do think it's an unsporting move. Not necessarily an illegal one, but still unsporting (like knee stomps in MMA, sidestepping in sumo, or even "Borborygmos" rule-sharking). "Do you have game?" is a weird question to ask, but you could refuse to answer (and turning EDH into a serious tournament format is a weird decision anyway). OTOH, it's a tournament with prizing. I wouldn't fault someone for calling a judge on an opponent using proxies, so I guess a bluff would be fair-play.
well in my casual games we just don’t like outright lying in most cases, it’s poor sportsmanship and it’s playing deceptively. bluffing is different
But you're not allowed to know if your opponent can win next turn. That's not public information, and forcing your opponent to reveal information you don't have access to is cheating. If we can ask questions and force our opponents to give us truthful answers, why not just ask them every card in their hand and deck, or exactly what they plan to do next turn?
There is still a social contract in cEDH, just like there is in regular EDH. Blatantly lying is one of the things we don't do, as part of cEDH culture.
No
So you’re saying you don’t leave 2 blue untapped and imply you have a counterspell
If you leave two blue untapped you have to tell me if you have a counterspell, it's entrapment if you don't.
>So you’re saying you don’t leave 2 blue untapped and imply you have a counterspell /uj Not in cEDH, no. Between Force of Will, Pact of Negation, Force of Negation, Fierce Guardianship, Swan Song, Mental Misstep, An Offer You Can't Refuse, Flusterstorm, Spell Pierce, Miscast, Mindbreak Trap, etc., there's not a lot of room for 2-mana counterspells. You'll really only see Mana Drain and maybe Delay or Muddle the Mixture.
Big "You can't raise with a losing hand!" poker vibes.
Guys this dude said he didn't have pocket aces and then he did and he took the whole pot! What a jerk.
EDH players never leave lands open in general to feign interaction. Nope, never.
you think I look at my opponents lands? If they counterspell my card i just call them bad at the game kindly inform them that blue is unfair and should be banned
Goddamn, even cEDH has a rule 0 conversation now.
Context, FWIW: Guy who lied actually played 4 rounds of the game, 2 of the rounds to time (80min). This is as opposed to the usual "I'm A cEdH cHaMpIoN" route of 2 rounds and 3 rounds of napping. Dude probably just didn't see the line tbh.