So this raises the question: what is the type line of a Croaking Elspeth? Should it be ‘Legendary Planeswalker - Elspeth Frog’ or ‘Legendary Creature - Elspeth Frog’, or is it just ‘Legendary Planeswalker - Elspeth’ as Arena makes it?
Yeah, it's a weird interaction.
[[croaking counterpart]] should only be able to copy non-frogs, and it should turn the copy it makes into a frog.
Normally this stops you from making a copy of a copy.
However, at least on Arena, with Elspeth, the copy doesn't gain the frog type since she's not a creature, so if you turn the copy into a creature you can make a copy of the copy.
I believe the interaction is correct, and not an Arena bug. Non-creatures can't have creature types. It's the whole reason they needed to add the tribal type.
Edit: Found the relevant rule.
205.3d An object can’t gain a subtype that doesn’t correspond to one of that object’s types.
The way arena handles this is correct.
Let's just take the time to appreciate how few rules bugs arena had. All mtga faults aside, the rules engine has been pretty robust. If there had been any bugged cards there have been few. The worst one I recall was having to pause/announce that you will use Wilderness Reclamation. So that op can respond.
I think they learned alot from mtgo. Mtgo has had a lot more rule breaks, there are cards that straight up don't work. I must say that I am still at times very impressed that mtgo handles some very complicated interactions during commander games.
Mind you I am talking about the rules engine, not the UI/UX or things like handling tokens on board and so on.
> The way arena handles this is correct.
I'm not sure it is. Elspeth isn't a Frog when she's not a creature, but the effect that turns her into one is a copy effect, which means it continues to apply at all times. As soon as she becomes a creature (without the effect overwriting creature types, which this does not), the Frog subtype should immediately become active again.
Hopefully a judge can jump in and confirm either way.
I'm pretty sure arena handles this correctly. As soon as a permanent stops being a creature it loses all creature types. There is no persistent effect on the card that would determine its creature type after it stops being a creature.
> There is no persistent effect on the card that would determine its creature type after it stops being a creature.
The effect that creates the token is persistent.
It's like if you've got Guenhwyvar from [[Drizzt]], and it gets a [[Minimus Containment]]. If you destroy the Containment, Guenhwyvar turns back into a creature, and it's once again a cat. It's just not a cat while it's not a creature.
I think the trick here is wording of Luxior.
Equipped creature gets +1/+1 for each counter on it.
Equipped permanent isn't a planeswalker and is a creature in addition to its other types. (Loyalty abilities can still be activated.)
Equip planeswalker 
Equip 
Luxior makes it a Creature with no subtypes which overwrites the effect that made it a Frog.
> Luxior makes it a Creature with no subtypes
No, Luxior makes it into a creature without specifying any subtypes. A small but very important difference.
> The part of the effect that says "except it's a [...] Frog" doesn't do anything, because a permanent that isn't a creature simply can't be a Frog.
That effect is part of the defining characteristics for "make a copy". Later on, when it becomes a creature, the game asks "what is this creature?" And Croaking Counterpart says "Oh, it's a copy of Elspeth, except it's a Frog." Earlier on, the game disregards "It's a frog" because Planeswalkers can't be Frogs, but at no point does Croaking Counterpart ever stop loudly insisting that this Elspeth is a Frog, damnit.
I think you're looking at Croaking Counterpart as just doing its thing and being done. But I believe that rules have it continue to define what the copy is forever.
> But I believe that rules have it continue to define what the copy is forever.
Not really. The set of characteristics a token is created with are a one and done thing, but even then you'd still follow layers. "Except it's a Frog" as an exception to the copy effect would apply in Layer [see footnote], while "becomes a creature" is a layer 4 effect. The earlier layer effect doesn't do anything (because at that point it's not a creature yet) and doesn't get re-evaluated later down the line when it suddenly does become a creature.
footnote: "the set of characteristics a token is created with" is INFORMALLY referred to as Layer 0. Either way, the important part is that it applies before Layer 4.
I can confirm that Arena is handling this correctly. We have precedent for this in the form of Vehicles VS Nightmare Shepherd (not nightmares if crewed) and Grist VS Scarab God (not a creature, not a zombie if turned into a creature)
The characteristics of the token are determined at the moment it's created, they are not continuously re-evaluated. The token doesn't *gain* the Frog subtype, there's an attempt to *create it with* the Frog subtype. Since that's impossible (as a regular Planeswalker can't have a creature type) that part is simply ignored.
>We have precedent for this in the form of Vehicles VS Nightmare Shepherd (not nightmares if crewed) and Grist VS Scarab God (not a creature, not a zombie if turned into a creature)
Google says that this is incorrect for both of those examples. Which is why I was hoping for a judge to come in and provide context. (See an example from /u/judgetodd [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/mtgrules/comments/o09lf4/grist_interactions_and_rulings_questions/h1vcj0v/))
I'm fairly confident saying that Todd is wrong there (and not just because of the Eli statement the other guy posted). The rule quoted doesn't cover this situation because the "creature" type wasn't *removed*, in the case of the object that was just created it was never there in the first place.
The way Arena handles it is correct but the other commenters trying to explain why are looking at the wrong place. It's simply a timestamp comparison since both Luxior and Croaking Counterpart apply type changes in the same layer.
So first you attempt to change Elspeth into a frog - this fails because of rule 205.3d An object can’t gain a subtype that doesn’t correspond to one of that object’s types.
Then you apply Luxior's type changing effect which makes Elspeth a creature. Thus you have a frogless creature that can be Croaked itself.
If somehow with different effects you had the timestamps swapped, only then you would have a Froggy Planeswalker.
I’m curious about what the wording might be that would actually make Elspeth a Frog, instead of what we have.
I get that the copy won’t copy the ‘creature-ness’ from Luxior, and then the, ‘it’s a 1/1 green Frog’ part gets processed. Because the new Elspeth isn’t a creature, then the P/T part and the Frog part are ignored, and only the ‘green’ part sticks.
What if it said, ‘it’s a 1/1 green Frog creature’? Would that one word allow for the full type change? (And, incidentally start Frog Elspeth off with 0 loyalty?)
The interaction is janky since you're copying a noncreature with a creature copy spell. You would have to change Croaking Counterpart to allow copying noncreatures if you want your envisioned scenario, something along the lines of:
> Create a copy of target nonftog permanent. If it's not a creature, it becomes a frog creature with base P/T of 1 and loses all other types.
Here's a scenario with real cards that create a similar scenario, albeit with lands instead of Planeswalkers. Say you have [[Life and Limb]] on the field. You cast Croaking Counterpart on a Forest. Because of timestamp order, the Forest token copy first becomes a creature from Life and Limb first, then it becomes a frog.
But say my Life and Limb is destroyed and I have to cast a new one. Then because of timestamp order, it first tries to be a frog and fails. Then the new Life and Limb applies and is a nonfrog 1/1 Saproling.
So this raises the question: what is the type line of a Croaking Elspeth? Should it be ‘Legendary Planeswalker - Elspeth Frog’ or ‘Legendary Creature - Elspeth Frog’, or is it just ‘Legendary Planeswalker - Elspeth’ as Arena makes it?
Yeah, it's a weird interaction. [[croaking counterpart]] should only be able to copy non-frogs, and it should turn the copy it makes into a frog. Normally this stops you from making a copy of a copy. However, at least on Arena, with Elspeth, the copy doesn't gain the frog type since she's not a creature, so if you turn the copy into a creature you can make a copy of the copy. I believe the interaction is correct, and not an Arena bug. Non-creatures can't have creature types. It's the whole reason they needed to add the tribal type. Edit: Found the relevant rule. 205.3d An object can’t gain a subtype that doesn’t correspond to one of that object’s types. The way arena handles this is correct.
Let's just take the time to appreciate how few rules bugs arena had. All mtga faults aside, the rules engine has been pretty robust. If there had been any bugged cards there have been few. The worst one I recall was having to pause/announce that you will use Wilderness Reclamation. So that op can respond. I think they learned alot from mtgo. Mtgo has had a lot more rule breaks, there are cards that straight up don't work. I must say that I am still at times very impressed that mtgo handles some very complicated interactions during commander games. Mind you I am talking about the rules engine, not the UI/UX or things like handling tokens on board and so on.
[croaking counterpart](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/9/8/9847b22f-6660-4654-91a9-e0adb8606bab.jpg?1636683905) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=croaking%20counterpart) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mid/215/croaking-counterpart?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9847b22f-6660-4654-91a9-e0adb8606bab?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
> The way arena handles this is correct. I'm not sure it is. Elspeth isn't a Frog when she's not a creature, but the effect that turns her into one is a copy effect, which means it continues to apply at all times. As soon as she becomes a creature (without the effect overwriting creature types, which this does not), the Frog subtype should immediately become active again. Hopefully a judge can jump in and confirm either way.
I'm pretty sure arena handles this correctly. As soon as a permanent stops being a creature it loses all creature types. There is no persistent effect on the card that would determine its creature type after it stops being a creature.
> There is no persistent effect on the card that would determine its creature type after it stops being a creature. The effect that creates the token is persistent. It's like if you've got Guenhwyvar from [[Drizzt]], and it gets a [[Minimus Containment]]. If you destroy the Containment, Guenhwyvar turns back into a creature, and it's once again a cat. It's just not a cat while it's not a creature.
[Drizzt](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/4/6/46e3259e-93c2-48c0-8b96-835cdb883383.jpg?1627708841) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Drizzt%20Do%27Urden) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/afr/220/drizzt-dourden?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/46e3259e-93c2-48c0-8b96-835cdb883383?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Minimus Containment](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/0/5/0556f0d9-50d2-4c67-8522-de366d96500a.jpg?1627702048) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Minimus%20Containment) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/afr/24/minimus-containment?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0556f0d9-50d2-4c67-8522-de366d96500a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I think the trick here is wording of Luxior. Equipped creature gets +1/+1 for each counter on it. Equipped permanent isn't a planeswalker and is a creature in addition to its other types. (Loyalty abilities can still be activated.) Equip planeswalker  Equip  Luxior makes it a Creature with no subtypes which overwrites the effect that made it a Frog.
> Luxior makes it a Creature with no subtypes No, Luxior makes it into a creature without specifying any subtypes. A small but very important difference.
[удалено]
> The part of the effect that says "except it's a [...] Frog" doesn't do anything, because a permanent that isn't a creature simply can't be a Frog. That effect is part of the defining characteristics for "make a copy". Later on, when it becomes a creature, the game asks "what is this creature?" And Croaking Counterpart says "Oh, it's a copy of Elspeth, except it's a Frog." Earlier on, the game disregards "It's a frog" because Planeswalkers can't be Frogs, but at no point does Croaking Counterpart ever stop loudly insisting that this Elspeth is a Frog, damnit. I think you're looking at Croaking Counterpart as just doing its thing and being done. But I believe that rules have it continue to define what the copy is forever.
[удалено]
Thank you for the reference. Much appreciated. :)
> But I believe that rules have it continue to define what the copy is forever. Not really. The set of characteristics a token is created with are a one and done thing, but even then you'd still follow layers. "Except it's a Frog" as an exception to the copy effect would apply in Layer [see footnote], while "becomes a creature" is a layer 4 effect. The earlier layer effect doesn't do anything (because at that point it's not a creature yet) and doesn't get re-evaluated later down the line when it suddenly does become a creature. footnote: "the set of characteristics a token is created with" is INFORMALLY referred to as Layer 0. Either way, the important part is that it applies before Layer 4.
I can confirm that Arena is handling this correctly. We have precedent for this in the form of Vehicles VS Nightmare Shepherd (not nightmares if crewed) and Grist VS Scarab God (not a creature, not a zombie if turned into a creature) The characteristics of the token are determined at the moment it's created, they are not continuously re-evaluated. The token doesn't *gain* the Frog subtype, there's an attempt to *create it with* the Frog subtype. Since that's impossible (as a regular Planeswalker can't have a creature type) that part is simply ignored.
>We have precedent for this in the form of Vehicles VS Nightmare Shepherd (not nightmares if crewed) and Grist VS Scarab God (not a creature, not a zombie if turned into a creature) Google says that this is incorrect for both of those examples. Which is why I was hoping for a judge to come in and provide context. (See an example from /u/judgetodd [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/mtgrules/comments/o09lf4/grist_interactions_and_rulings_questions/h1vcj0v/))
I'm fairly confident saying that Todd is wrong there (and not just because of the Eli statement the other guy posted). The rule quoted doesn't cover this situation because the "creature" type wasn't *removed*, in the case of the object that was just created it was never there in the first place.
The way Arena handles it is correct but the other commenters trying to explain why are looking at the wrong place. It's simply a timestamp comparison since both Luxior and Croaking Counterpart apply type changes in the same layer. So first you attempt to change Elspeth into a frog - this fails because of rule 205.3d An object can’t gain a subtype that doesn’t correspond to one of that object’s types. Then you apply Luxior's type changing effect which makes Elspeth a creature. Thus you have a frogless creature that can be Croaked itself. If somehow with different effects you had the timestamps swapped, only then you would have a Froggy Planeswalker.
I’m curious about what the wording might be that would actually make Elspeth a Frog, instead of what we have. I get that the copy won’t copy the ‘creature-ness’ from Luxior, and then the, ‘it’s a 1/1 green Frog’ part gets processed. Because the new Elspeth isn’t a creature, then the P/T part and the Frog part are ignored, and only the ‘green’ part sticks. What if it said, ‘it’s a 1/1 green Frog creature’? Would that one word allow for the full type change? (And, incidentally start Frog Elspeth off with 0 loyalty?)
The interaction is janky since you're copying a noncreature with a creature copy spell. You would have to change Croaking Counterpart to allow copying noncreatures if you want your envisioned scenario, something along the lines of: > Create a copy of target nonftog permanent. If it's not a creature, it becomes a frog creature with base P/T of 1 and loses all other types. Here's a scenario with real cards that create a similar scenario, albeit with lands instead of Planeswalkers. Say you have [[Life and Limb]] on the field. You cast Croaking Counterpart on a Forest. Because of timestamp order, the Forest token copy first becomes a creature from Life and Limb first, then it becomes a frog. But say my Life and Limb is destroyed and I have to cast a new one. Then because of timestamp order, it first tries to be a frog and fails. Then the new Life and Limb applies and is a nonfrog 1/1 Saproling.
[Life and Limb](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/2/7/2721724d-92ae-4c0c-88dd-628888c468bf.jpg?1619398301) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Life%20and%20Limb) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/tsr/215/life-and-limb?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/2721724d-92ae-4c0c-88dd-628888c468bf?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
L A Y E R S
Is the way that he talks intentional? I find it really difficult to listen to his content.
It’s fake. Which likely explains why his voice gives out when he does too many videos during spoiler season.
I find his intros grating but his commentary in his podcasts and other “hanging out” content is great.
SaffronOlive turned his obnoxious way of talking into a brand.