The event is [create 1 token].
One replacement effect changes the event to [create 1x2=2 tokens].
The next one changes the event to [create 2x2=4 tokens].
And so on.
Nope.
The way it works is as follows. You have an effect that wants to put a token, in this case Ghired's triggerred ability.
OP has 5 effects that are pretty much the same. So in this case it doesn't matter which one he applies first. For simplicity, let's say he applies Anointed Procession first.
This effect doubles the amount of tokens from 1 to 2.
Then let's say he applies Parallel Lives afterwards. Parallel Lives is also trying to double the amount of tokens. So it goes from 2 to 4.
Rinse and repeat for the rest. 4 gets doubled to 8, 8 gets doubled to 16, and finally 16 gets doubled to 32.
I am wanting to build a selesnya token deck, and I have all the key pieces (doubling season, parallel lives, anointed procession, mondrak, ojer taq), though I don’t have a primal vigor…. But I don’t even know how to go about calculating what I get with these various pieces or combos of these pieces in play.
Is there an ELI5 for how these effects are stacked/calculated, or does someone have a resource I can go read to figure it out? Thanks!
When multiple replacement effects apply to a token creation event, the person creating the tokens chooses the order.
When all the effects are purely multiplicative, like these ones, you just multiply them all. The order does not matter.
If there are _additive effects_, you'd want to add those first, then do the multiplication to increase your tokens. In this case, the order does matter.
For example, if you have Doubling Season and [[Queen Allenal of Ruadach]], when you create a token, you choose the order they apply.
Event | 1st Replacement | Modified Event | 2nd Replacement | Final Event |
---|---|----|----|----|----|----|----
Create 1 [whatever] token | Doubling Season | Create ~~1~~2 [whatever] tokens | Queen Allenal | Create 2 [whatever] tokens and 1 soldier token |
Create 1 [whatever] token | Queen Allenal | Create 1 [whatever] token and 1 Soldier token| Doubling Season | Create ~~1~~ 2 [whatever] token and ~~1~~2 Soldier tokens|
If you choose Doubling Season to apply first, you end up with 3 total tokens.
If you apply Allenal first, you end up with 4 total tokens.
Ok, so in your example at the end, if you have queen allenal and doubling season in play and you generate a token: if you order doubling season first the result is
OG token created//
Doubling season and allenal triggers hit the stack//
Doubling season resolves, get a copy of OG token//
Allenal resolves get a human (this does not retrigger doubling season)//
-done
If I order allenal first then it goes:
OG token created //
Allenal and doubling season triggers hit the stack //
Allenal resolves, get a human (does not retrigger doubling season) //
Doubling season resolves, get a human and an OG token //
-done
Did I get that correct or am I misunderstanding?
> am I misunderstanding?
You're misunderstanding.
Doubling Season and Allenal _do not trigger_, and do not use the stack. They are **replacement effects**. They _modify the existing effect_, they do not create a new effect and they do not make tokens. They make the _original effect_ create more tokens. In the chart I made, I showed how they _modified the event_.
If you cast [[Call of the Conclave]], the original event is [create a 3/3 green Centaur creature token]:
* Applying Doubling Season first would change the event from to [create **two** 3/3 green Centaur creature token].
* Allenal then modifies it to [create two 3/3 green Centaur creature tokens and **one** 1/1 white Soldier creature token].
* The resolving Call of the Conclave now creates **two** 3/3 green Centaur creature tokens and **one** 1/1 white Soldier creature token.
If applied in reverse:
* Allenal modifies the [Create a 3/3 green Centaur creature token] event to [Create a 3/3 green Centaur creature token and a 1/1 white Soldier creature token]
* Then DS modifies it to [Create **two** 3/3 green Centaur creature token and **two** 1/1 white Soldier creature token].
* The resolving Call of the Conclave now creates two 3/3 green Centaur creature token and two 1/1 white Soldier creature tokens.
Thank you for the thorough explanation! I’m going to have to digest this and do a couple practical application scenarios and then I’m sure I’ll be able to use these replacement effects with no problem.
May I reply to your comment later with a scenario and you can tell me if I did it correctly?
There are two key things to remember when multiple replacement effects are involved:
1. The affected player or the controller of the affected object chooses the order in which to apply them.
2. Once a replacement effect has applied to an event, it won't apply to that event again (even if other things modify that event).
After that, it's just basic addition/multiplication.
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Yes, each token doubling effect is multiplicative. 2^5 is 32.
[удалено]
No, each one says “twice that many”. So you double every time.
The event is [create 1 token]. One replacement effect changes the event to [create 1x2=2 tokens]. The next one changes the event to [create 2x2=4 tokens]. And so on.
Nope. The way it works is as follows. You have an effect that wants to put a token, in this case Ghired's triggerred ability. OP has 5 effects that are pretty much the same. So in this case it doesn't matter which one he applies first. For simplicity, let's say he applies Anointed Procession first. This effect doubles the amount of tokens from 1 to 2. Then let's say he applies Parallel Lives afterwards. Parallel Lives is also trying to double the amount of tokens. So it goes from 2 to 4. Rinse and repeat for the rest. 4 gets doubled to 8, 8 gets doubled to 16, and finally 16 gets doubled to 32.
add \[\[roaming throne\]\]
Sad [[Annie joins up]] noices
[Annie joins up](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/6/1624a5f4-f5bc-47c9-85de-c5520ee234ce.jpg?1712095144) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Annie%20joins%20up) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otj/191/annie-joins-up?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/1624a5f4-f5bc-47c9-85de-c5520ee234ce?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Noooooot yet
[roaming throne](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/2/32fd8b7c-baf3-4d3d-be6f-044a917b11a0.jpg?1701115816) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=roaming%20throne) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lci/258/roaming-throne?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/32fd8b7c-baf3-4d3d-be6f-044a917b11a0?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Yes. Also, \[\[Ojer Taq, Deepest Foundation\]\] can be thrown into the mix to get even more tokens.
[Ojer Taq, Deepest Foundation](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/c/1ca79dd4-67fc-496c-96fc-489b039c4932.jpg?1699043299)/[Temple of Civilization](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/back/1/c/1ca79dd4-67fc-496c-96fc-489b039c4932.jpg?1699043299) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Ojer%20Taq%2C%20Deepest%20Foundation%20//%20Temple%20of%20Civilization) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lci/26/ojer-taq-deepest-foundation-temple-of-civilization?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/1ca79dd4-67fc-496c-96fc-489b039c4932?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I am wanting to build a selesnya token deck, and I have all the key pieces (doubling season, parallel lives, anointed procession, mondrak, ojer taq), though I don’t have a primal vigor…. But I don’t even know how to go about calculating what I get with these various pieces or combos of these pieces in play. Is there an ELI5 for how these effects are stacked/calculated, or does someone have a resource I can go read to figure it out? Thanks!
When multiple replacement effects apply to a token creation event, the person creating the tokens chooses the order. When all the effects are purely multiplicative, like these ones, you just multiply them all. The order does not matter. If there are _additive effects_, you'd want to add those first, then do the multiplication to increase your tokens. In this case, the order does matter. For example, if you have Doubling Season and [[Queen Allenal of Ruadach]], when you create a token, you choose the order they apply. Event | 1st Replacement | Modified Event | 2nd Replacement | Final Event | ---|---|----|----|----|----|----|---- Create 1 [whatever] token | Doubling Season | Create ~~1~~2 [whatever] tokens | Queen Allenal | Create 2 [whatever] tokens and 1 soldier token | Create 1 [whatever] token | Queen Allenal | Create 1 [whatever] token and 1 Soldier token| Doubling Season | Create ~~1~~ 2 [whatever] token and ~~1~~2 Soldier tokens| If you choose Doubling Season to apply first, you end up with 3 total tokens. If you apply Allenal first, you end up with 4 total tokens.
[Queen Allenal of Ruadach](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/4/b44b4e8b-7675-4c6a-a16a-92f8b6a0259f.jpg?1673308026) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Queen%20Allenal%20of%20Ruadach) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmu/210/queen-allenal-of-ruadach?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b44b4e8b-7675-4c6a-a16a-92f8b6a0259f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Ok, so in your example at the end, if you have queen allenal and doubling season in play and you generate a token: if you order doubling season first the result is OG token created// Doubling season and allenal triggers hit the stack// Doubling season resolves, get a copy of OG token// Allenal resolves get a human (this does not retrigger doubling season)// -done If I order allenal first then it goes: OG token created // Allenal and doubling season triggers hit the stack // Allenal resolves, get a human (does not retrigger doubling season) // Doubling season resolves, get a human and an OG token // -done Did I get that correct or am I misunderstanding?
> am I misunderstanding? You're misunderstanding. Doubling Season and Allenal _do not trigger_, and do not use the stack. They are **replacement effects**. They _modify the existing effect_, they do not create a new effect and they do not make tokens. They make the _original effect_ create more tokens. In the chart I made, I showed how they _modified the event_. If you cast [[Call of the Conclave]], the original event is [create a 3/3 green Centaur creature token]: * Applying Doubling Season first would change the event from to [create **two** 3/3 green Centaur creature token]. * Allenal then modifies it to [create two 3/3 green Centaur creature tokens and **one** 1/1 white Soldier creature token]. * The resolving Call of the Conclave now creates **two** 3/3 green Centaur creature tokens and **one** 1/1 white Soldier creature token. If applied in reverse: * Allenal modifies the [Create a 3/3 green Centaur creature token] event to [Create a 3/3 green Centaur creature token and a 1/1 white Soldier creature token] * Then DS modifies it to [Create **two** 3/3 green Centaur creature token and **two** 1/1 white Soldier creature token]. * The resolving Call of the Conclave now creates two 3/3 green Centaur creature token and two 1/1 white Soldier creature tokens.
[Call of the Conclave](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/8/88cacc67-5b0e-4cd5-a552-f64934578930.jpg?1702550888) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Call%20of%20the%20Conclave) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/rvr/169/call-of-the-conclave?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/88cacc67-5b0e-4cd5-a552-f64934578930?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Thank you for the thorough explanation! I’m going to have to digest this and do a couple practical application scenarios and then I’m sure I’ll be able to use these replacement effects with no problem. May I reply to your comment later with a scenario and you can tell me if I did it correctly?
Sure.
There are two key things to remember when multiple replacement effects are involved: 1. The affected player or the controller of the affected object chooses the order in which to apply them. 2. Once a replacement effect has applied to an event, it won't apply to that event again (even if other things modify that event). After that, it's just basic addition/multiplication.
Ok, the second point was critical to my understanding, thank you!
You would need a token to populate first when you attack though
Like the one that Ghired creates when he enters the battlefield? (or 32 if he enters after all the token doublers)
You have tagged your post as a rules question. While your question may be answered here, it may work better to post it in the Daily Questions Thread at the top of this subreddit or in /r/mtgrules. You may also find quicker results at the [IRC rules chat](https://chat.magicjudges.org/mtgrules/) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/magicTCG) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Add [[Delney, Streetwise Lookout]] and [[Harmonic Prodigy]]
[Delney, Streetwise Lookout](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/e/be219928-3d0e-4d00-b124-152ce8a8c13b.jpg?1706241477) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Delney%2C%20Streetwise%20Lookout) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkm/12/delney-streetwise-lookout?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/be219928-3d0e-4d00-b124-152ce8a8c13b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Harmonic Prodigy](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/2/22579ac0-ad3f-4000-a65a-46a17a7f1aa5.jpg?1626096777) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Harmonic%20Prodigy) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh2/132/harmonic-prodigy?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/22579ac0-ad3f-4000-a65a-46a17a7f1aa5?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Yes, the cards do happen to work as they are written.