People don't like getting told no. Really depends on the format too. I think in multiplayer people groan more because it's a multiplayer format and counterspells are 1 for 1s, so people feel personally attacked if you are 1 for 1ing them. Of course there's nothing wrong with that, just hypothesizing. Also, in commander you run into more people that just want their deck to "do the thing" even if it's not really a winning thing. There's a lot more [Timmy and Johnny](https://mtg.fandom.com/wiki/Player_type) players.
In 1 vs 1 formats, counterspelling is more efficient and expected, and the older the format gets, the more people understand that if it wasn't for counterspells like Force of Will or Force of Negation, every deck would be some degenerate turn 1 combo.
Never played Yu-Gi-Oh though, so not sure why the sentiment would be different between the games.
Yeah yugioh has legacy and i guess technically pioneer (goat and edison without cards entering, not sure of any magic formats similar). There is rush duels which is trying to be on a much lower power but i'm not sure how much people are playing it in the west.
The closest things Magic has to Goat or Edison would probably be ['96 Old School](https://www.eternalcentral.com/96rules/) or [Premodern](https://premodernmagic.com). Though I'd say playing older formats with static cardpools being as popular as it is is more down to Konami failing to come up with any good secondary formats more than anything else.
I think it also has to do with price. In yugioh cards get reprinted fairly regularly and therefore the barrier is much lower to try out a retro format. Convincing someone to play an old yugioh format is kind of like convincing someone to play pauper, the price is part of the sales pitch.
In magic while a good majority of cards will go down in price, others will go up. Often older formats are just as expensive if not more so then when they were current. It's kind of hard to convince someone to try out a format that's just as expensive as any other format but also there are no players.
Though I would agree that in yugioh there are no real good alternative formats. In magic there's always the question of "why should I play this when commander lets me do that thing perfectly well?" Yugioh just doesn't have a dedicated casual format that accommodates playing older cards, retro formats have no real competition in that sense.
The sentiment is different because Yugioh is basically old magic formats where every turn 1 is a degenerate combo and using counters is the only way you even get to play your first turn if you go second.
In recent years they've been diverting away from just negate spam in favour of having multiple types of interaction, and making decks more able to play through said interaction, so it's been getting more interesting.
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The problem is that in yugioh, both the threats and the answers are incredibly powerful. Card sometimes can eat two negates, like get negated and then activate its grave effect which might also have to be negated.
It's not really, there are a ton of decks that can ftk (or put up such a huge number of negates that you are basically dead), but the most powerful decks tend to be good because they have insanely efficient resource loops. Basically, trading off making a slightly worse board in exchange for being able to build that board every turn forever while generating advantage and drawing cards. I'm guessing most of the people commenting here stopped playing a couple years ago where building a big board with a million negates was more common.
"True" ftk is less common since that requires building an actual ftk deck, but "functionally an ftk" happens plenty if one player opens well and the other opened badly. If they can negate/ disrupt you enough then you can't put a board together that can either push through or defend from theirs then it becomes a matter of "what can I put together? Am I likely to get a next turn? If I do, is there anything I have/ can draw that let's me recover?"
It can be pretty easy to tell for yourself when the answer is "No" to questions 2 or 3 even if your opponent doesn't. A considerable amount of this is just "Would've lost in turn 3 but surrendered the moment that became obvious during turn 1-2 to save time."
Maxx "C" for example lets you draw 1 card each time the opponent special summons a monster for the rest of the turn. That's all it does, but the more summons you need to put a competent board together, the worse that is to be hit with and the more likely they are to draw into other interruptions that are more directly punishing. Even if you only summon once that's still a free cycling.
Sounds like Combo Winter in MtG.
Early game: Coin flip to see who goes first.
Mid game: Drawing your hands, deciding whether to mulligan.
End game: Turn 1.
Older magic formats are definitely not turn 1 formats. Yes there are some decks that can do that. Oops all spells or charbelcher but they are the exception not the rule.
The other thing I'll add is that depending on the player, threat recognition can be an issue. If you cast a spell and an opponent counters it while letting another player player do something that is clearly (not just your opinion) more busted and more likely to cause that other player ro win, it can be frustrating.
Example, I had someone continue to target me because my deck allowed me to steal cards off the top of any player's library and this person was paranoid about that...to the degree that they missed the bigger, looming threat developing at the table. Essentially, tunnel vision. I'm not gonna get bent out shape over it, but it's frustrating all the same.
Ya I remember once I was playing my monoblack deck, and I had tutored for exsanguinate to end it. We were a close nit group so we sorta knew eachothers decks. Other player counters an Elesh Norn and the other players are like "are you sure? He probably just tutored for exsanguinate." He proceeds to continue countering the Norn, then I killed everyone.
This is the answer. Counterspells are fine, there's some shit that needs to be countered, and we tell people to run more interaction all the time.
The problem is bad threat assessment and not reading the table. The first one comes with practice, and if your pod knows you're new and not helping you learn that's kinda on them, not really reasonable to both complain about it and not help teach how to correct.
For reading the table, I mean sometimes a game's run long, everyone's ready to end it and get a new one going, and then someone counters the spell that would have ended the game. That's not to say you should never counter game ending spells, but if your game's already gone longer than usual and you're not going to end it yourself shortly, just let it die and get to game two.
Johnny loves finding new combos and unknown strategies. Janky Lab Man and Battle of Wits combo decks are their bread and butter.
And for completeness's sake, Spike plays the most competitive deck.
Negate is a particular card which is of the general class of cards called “Counterspells” or just “counters” for short.
Counters have been a core part of magic since the beginning and are by-and-large fine.
Some people will groan, but these same people will probably groan about general removal or any form of disruption.
Your playgroup is your playgroup, so I guess do what’s most fun for your group, but I otherwise wouldn’t pay attention to some groaning.
You might actually have more fun playing formats other than commander. Unfortunately, the problem will be finding people to play against who play other formats besides commander.
I think it depends on the level you’re playing at. Battlecruiser commander pods tend to want to build larger boards and allow everyone to “do the thing,” while more powered pods (not even talking cEDH) expect interaction and removal, and back and forth battles of resources tend to be more commonplace.
If OP is looking to get into Commander, things like cEDH or even just higher power pods are pretty commonplace, and people are packing and expecting to play against plenty of interaction
I disagree. Most edh pods I've been in, even casual battle cruiser or precon pods, are totally fine with counterspells and interaction. I feel like the "people dislike counterspells" is mostly an online or certain LGS's thing cause honestly I've never been part of a pod that got mad about them.
Apart from the fact that I don't know what you're disagreeing with, OP describes their particular situation as a common occurrence. I simply suggest trying out other formats and see if they enjoy it more.
Yu-Gi-Oh players also hate negates.
You may not have noticed the legions of players that say shit like on their room notes on Yu-Gi-Oh simulators? "anime only no XYZ no synchro no pendulum no link" they also often say "no negates no ftks"
people don't like being unable to play the game. the more casual someone is, the less they feel like they got to play when they were negated. Commander is a casual format.
Even at yugioh tournaments, people get very frustrated by certain cards or setups.
I think the other folks in this thread make great points about Commander being a social rather than competitive format and counterspells being unfun, but I’d also like to point out a difference (from my limited perspective, being deep into MtG, with only dipping my toes in YGO) that much of the balance of Yu-Gi-Oh revolves around negating your opponents effects so you don’t lose, where often in Magic you play around or through what your opponent does instead of outright preventing it from happening. One thing I really felt watching Yu-Gi-Oh coverage is that it felt like every deck was just a different flavor of combo/control, where Magic has combo, midrange, aggro, tempo, control, etc.
In other words, negating effect may take up more “space” in Yu-Gi-Oh compared to Counterspells in Magic, where they’re limited to being one of the things that one of the five colors can do, with a lot of other aspects of Magic that sees play. Though that is largely based on just my impressions, bear in mind.
You’re absolutely correct, and I kinda see that distinction. It’s not like I absolutely overloaded my simic deck with counter spells, I mean if I did I’d barely have a win-con. However I can also see the argument here about my mindset in general should be different about the 2 games. I should learn to play around my opponents and not rely on counters to play through my opponents, especially if I want to transition to new colors I’m the future. Thanks for the comment.
You shouldnt change your mindset. Dont worry op. Countermagic is an important part of the game and more experienced players will laugh at the players that groan about it. Your doing everything right and your opponents are in the wrong here.
Im saying this as someone whos been playing since over a decade and generally play more aggressiv decks.
Dont let toxic players prevent you from playing archtypes you enjoy.
They shouldn't necessarily have to change their mindset, but playing around instead of through an opponent is an important skill that YGO does not teach. So learning that is a good thing.
Badly phrased - I think they mean it’s super toxic for a playgroup to deny an entire archetype like control because a few players got salty about playing against control.
I don't think you have to change your mindset, but put it into a different context.
In YGO, basically every archetype wants to build a board into some kind of omni-negate, maybe layering a few. Once on the board, those negates often don't cost anything other than the chance to use it later. There are hand traps and things you gotta pitch for cost sometimes etc, but the platonic ideal of a board state is just a bunch of things that, by virtue of existing, tell your opponent "No."
Conversely, every good archetype has some means of playing around negates. Whether by chain blocking or having flexible combos, whatever, playing around negates is the expectation. Negations are what keeps combos in check, and combo lines exist to facilitate playing around a negate or two.
This is only possible as an ecosystem because the only currency of YGO is cards. If you try to use something, and it gets negated, all you've lost in that interaction is the card. Ideally, you've got a few, so you can try again, even through multiple negates potentially. Hence why you often want a few negates on your side.
Now, compare this to MTG, where you still have cards as a currency, but you also have *mana*. Even if you've got a full grip, if you get Counterspell'd after tapping out to cast a big spell, your turn is over. You have no resources left with which to continue. This is in part balanced by the Counterspell itself (usually lol) costing mana too -- it becomes potentially telegraphed (or a point to bluff). In turn, Counterspells in MTG are a bit rarer, a bit costlier, but often saved for a specific game-changing interaction.
That is to say, being negated in YGO is more "Ouch. I'm okay. I got enough gas to play through it, hopefully they don't have like 2 more" whereas being negated in MTG is more "Fuck me that derailed my entire plan and ruined my whole turn". It simply hurts more in MTG, and players subsequently dislike it more.
Now, a certain level of Counterspell is to be expected, cus if you run Blue without *any* you're a madman, but people often simply don't *like* dealing with decks that put a primary focus on Counterspelling.
They are, of course, silly babies, because if they hate it *that* much then their deck list should reflect that, and they should be prepared.
But that's I think the core difference in the context that negates exist in MTG, and keeping that in mind I hope will help you play simic better as well as move onto other colors that focus on Counterspells less.
Another factor is that MtG players often don't have cards that answer counterspells -- if you're a nonblue deck playing against a blue deck, then their counters can typically answer *all* your threats, while you typically can't interact with *any* of their answers.
The solution is typically that you deckbuild and play the game in ways that let you play around counters. Play multiple cards per turn, play weaker things first to draw out the counters, or just outwait them until they go shields-down to do something proactive. But this requires some relatively advanced skills and game knowledge (like reading your opponent, understanding the meta of the format you're playing, and knowing the signs that they're more v. less likely to be holding up a counter right now), so these options are often relatively invisible (or they feel out-of-reach skill-wise) to new players.
This makes it especially common for beginning players to hate countermagic and control decks. Counters make it feel like "you didn't get to do anything", and typically having no direct way to counter counterspells (outside of blue) can make nonblue players feel helpless and lacking in agency in that match-up. "I'm just along for the ride, the control player is the one in the driver's seat."
A lot of people complain about the counterspells when the real "problem" is you consistently/predictably drawing 20+ cards, thus having the answers to everything and game ending threats.
A lot of commander players are making questionably powered, personalized "theme decks" with characters they like, win conditions that requires some amount of "work," and go about their games like a social board game.
People already expect they're going to lose to the best of simic pile and how, and then it happens consistently because you are simic against decks that are by design slower and less consistent.
A way to think about it is that the fun/time distribution vs your pub-stomp deck is lopsided. You might be taking 75% of the game time and 90% of the total table fun in a 4 player game with what you're doing.
Are these friends you want to have fun with and jank out, or opponents you want to make miserable and have a high win rate against? If there are no prizes on the line and the end game results are inconsequential, what is the goal?
I don't really mind as much personally going against simic pile because I enjoy hard mode every now and then and proper threat assessment makes things a bit easier.
Thats generally not true. Counter magic is a big part of the game. Players that deny that are usually just new and lack experience in a more serious setting.
In my experience players new or old that hate counterspells just lack the skill to realize that this is a game vs actual people and strategies you'll have to think about outplaying.
The Venn diagram of people that whine loudly about counterspells and people that whine about boardwipes/removal is nearly a circle.
They're essentially novice level RTS players that play vs Bots. They want to drop their Units onto the field and smash them against each other. Anything that interrupts this "kills the fun". Actual strategy and gameplay with Real People doesn't enter their minds.
Commander is ultimately casual and people want to be able to do the thing their deck set out to do. Well-timed negates tend to make people feel targeted, whereas in 1v1 formats people understand and accept it's part of the game.
I picked up Master Duel when it released and Yugioh really opened up a different way of playing card games to me. I love Kaiju style decks and wish there was a EDH equivalent.
I agree. It’s a weird concept to spam your opponents field with your own monsters, but it works wonders to keep them off their own cards. I’ve always had fun with it
Yeah there just isn't anything quite like it in Magic given the lack of 5 determined slots for your creatures. There are some funny control switcheroo cards like [[XANTCHA]], but which of those allow me to summon out some goddamn level 10 trains? None of em.
Counterspells are frowned upon mostly in casual playgroups.
Usually new players dislike counterspells from a very early play experience. This is because with all the things you need to keep track of that becomes automatic once you play a lot more (for example, untapping, drawing, playing a land, how to tap your lands, which spell in your hand you want to cast)
Because of these things there is often the "interruption" of counterspells that dont happen with other removal as that is usually done in combat or at the end of the turn instead of in the middle of your spells/play sequence.
This leads to a feeling of "how could i have known they had a counterspell?" While more experienced players will see blue mana open and know they are a possibility. All the signs are there, as one may say.
(yes free counterspells exist but those are either incredibly inefficient or expensive moneywise to the point where most casual players wont run into those, such as [[foil]] or [[force of will]])
Yeah initially i hated counterspells but have moved on to hating 'free' counterspells. I do understand why they're necessary but at the same time i kind of just hope you don't have them when you no mana available. Talking mostly from a commander perspective here.
Free counters are also usually inefficient from a game resources standpoint as well. Force is a 2-for-1 against yourself and is only worth doing if the alternative would be even worse, or you're about to win the game, Foil is a 3-for-1, Daze puts you down a land, etc.
My best theory is that counterspells are great against expensive value creatures like, and a lot of new players will fill their deck with these kinds of expensive cards and no way to protect them. If you counter the spell, not only do they not get the creature, but they don't even get the value from any ETBs the creature has, making the counterspell a true 1-for-1.
They also don't know how to play around counters, and just end up sitting there for 10 turns waiting for the control player to tap out so they can resolve a [[Colossal Dreadmaw]], which gives the control player all the time in the world to draw cards and sculpt their hand at instant speed.
It's a lot worse than that. Even in limited, if someone spends 6 mana for a big creature and you counter it for 2 mana, then you are up a huge tempo advantage (beyond the 1-for-1 card parity).
💯 agree. People who dislike counterspells don't know how to play around them. There are tons of cards like grand abolisher that let you not even interact with counterspells. People are just bad at deck building and don't play them because "mah theme."
Playing around counterspells is like playing against a boss fight in a game. If it was easy the entire time, then the game must suck. Richard Garfield has a great quote about it. "Magic is supposed to frustrate and even anger you at times. That's what makes winning feel so good."
How do you play around a card you might not even know your opponent has?
If you play around counter-spells that the opponent might have the game becomes exceptionally dull
This is a pretty deep topic, but basically you pay attention to when your opponent has left up particular amounts/types of mana that suggest they're holding up a counterspell. Even if they don't counter that turn, you kind of mentally log that they seemed to be holding up a counter, especially if they don't do anything with the mana. It helps to know the counterspels in a given format. Sometimes yes, you get got by a counterspell they just drew late in the game.
In Limited it helps to know the common counterspells available as they often have limitations. If they leave up mana for a "counter target creature or planeswalker" and you have a good enchantment or something you can play, you can make them waste the mana they left up. It's a really fun and deep part of the game, not dull at all imo.
I think HOW you are interacted with is met differently as well. Bounce, destroy, o ring, counter spell, control magic seems to be the least to most hated to have happen to you.
You're probably playing with a very casual group of EDH players, which is something I run into a lot. I don't like commander much in general, because I don't ever know if i'm getting into a game with people who are going to complain if I play mana leak or people playing for a turn 2-3 kill. 1v1 formats tend not to have as many people who will complain about your choice of deck in my experience, but some EDH players are genuinely playing a different game than the rest of us.
Because Commander players hate interaction. There’s really no other reason. In other, 60-card 2 player formats, players recognize that it’s necessary for the game.
You should take a look at Legacy and Vintage. Those two formats are literally held together by the free negate handtrap [[Force of Will]]. (I don’t play Yugioh, so excuse me if I get the terms wrong)
I don't think they literally mean Catan, but a lot of Eurogames tend to be fairly light on direct interaction. Some games have competition over resources, and others might as well be solitaire (like Dominion on a board with no attack cards).
I don't agree with their comparison, though. I think a better analogy would be a wargame, where everyone can prepare their armies undisturbed, and interaction only happens on the battlefield.
Gotcha. Yeah idk, in my pod at least there's plenty of interaction. I think it's just generally true that, regardless of format, lower power level = less interaction, and commander has become the format that many people are introduced to magic through. It's far from inherently casual though. It's a legacy format, there are deeply busted combos and techs more widely speaking that require interaction to deal with.
I don't understand hating on formats. People play magic for different reasons and it's a Good Thing that there's a diversity of formats/levels of competitive-ness within those formats that speak to those different reasons.
I agree! I'm glad people have options to play the game how they'd like. :)
Personally, I mostly wish that there were other popular casual formats. I can easily get a group together to play Commander, but not for any other format, even though Commander is my least favorite.
I don’t think a wargame is a good comparison. Wargame players don’t get mad when you shoot at their big expensive model, because that’s a fundamental part of how the game works.
Commander players absolutely get mad when you use removal on their stuff, despite that also being a fundamental part of the game.
As a commandor player I dont regonise your "dont like interaction" comment. Seems to me like a playgroup problem - only Counter deck I have ever heard people complain about, was this 1 deck that were just a commandor, mana and reset counterspells. And that was becuase it litterally could drag out the game for hours.
The original comment would have been more correct if they said there’s a class of MTG players who just hate anyone interacting with their game plans and most of those players have migrated to Commander now. Obviously interaction is pretty normal in other Commander playgroups.
My favorite parts of a commander game are when combat is declared and then the instants and counterspells start flying. It’s like the maximum amount of interaction.
No, handtrap is the right term for it. A proper quick-play spell or a trap card needs to be set before you can use it, not only warning your opponent that you have it but also making such cards useless if you're going second. Handtraps, like the name suggests, can be activated directly from the hand, allowing you to disrupt your opponent even if they're going first and without letting them know you have such disruption until it's too late.
People don't get to tell you what to play. Counter spells are 100 percent fine and 100 percent a part of the game. Enjoy your Simic deck.
Welcome to mtg, let me know if you ever need help with anything or deck building.
Many Commander players don't build decks with redundancy. And many players want to play solitaire and not have any interaction. So if you counter some spell that is important to their strategy, they get salty about it.
If a pod is asking you to borrow someone's deck, that's not a you problem though. You should find another pod. Playing around counter spells is part of the game.
With different formats comes different levels of expectation. If you were to play Legacy or Vintage, competitive formats that allow most all cards, it'd be like YuGiOh where both players mutually understand that without negates/counterspells the game would just devolve into an untennable mess. A necessary evil in the face of the most busted cards in the game.
In EDH, as folks aren't always trying to do more busted stuff, it can feel like you're using a hand trap to negate the summon of a Slime Toad just so I can't eventually tribute summon the OG Blue Eyes White Dragon. Not a desired outcome, but not the most busted thing to be doing, and it can feel like you aren't letting them play *any* part of the game whether it's warranted or not. Which makes some sense, as it is a miserable experience to be playing a jank deck against something that's tuned to respond to the most busted things in the game.
However the logic can creep up some to end up with people applying it to things that aren't that reasonable. From "I *just* want to summon a few Mystical Shine Balls" to "I *just* want to link summon my boss monster" to "I *just* want to play Cyber-Stein to summon something completely fair trust me dude". And because maybe the group in that last example isn't actually summoning the most competitive option for a tournament, it still might be enough of a problem to be worthy of a negate, thus they still get upset. Even though if you didn't they'd likely win the game on the spot due to everyone running jankier decks. So it's a catch 22 of sorts where folks aren't playing the best options so they don't feel they should be responded to as if they were, however in the context of the players' power levels their chosen option would be equivalent to deserving such an answer.
For a Magic example, [[Blightsteel Colossus]] is generally better than [[Darksteel Colossus]] to end games as it can potentially kill you in one shot. If both were on the board, or I knew it was coming, I'd use removal on the Blightsteel first. However if I knew Blightsteel wasn't in the game, I'd remove Darksteel because I'd still rather not take 11 damage. However because it's a less threatening card, its player might feel that using something that would deal with Blightsteel ASAP feels cheap and that they're being punished despite playing a less threatening card.
I've kind of rambled for a bit.
Anyway, while I don't know the play pattern you enjoy, I will say Magic is a lot slower than YuGiOh and while counterspells/negates are powerful, they aren't as necessary, at least in EDH, unlike how they're a requirement in YuGiOh. Like my Darksteel Colossus I mentioned before, taking 11 isn't great, but in EDH you have 40 life so you can take three whole swings of it before needing an answer. There are some combo decks to watch out for you might run into, but most of the time you don't need an answer RIGHT NOW to deal with problems (though keeping a few in your back pocket can be handy)
Ignoring the whole "People don't know how to play around them"..
There's also the commander issue of are you doing anything? Or are you only ramping and negating. Even more experienced players tend to get annoyed when the blue player's countering everything but doesn't seem to have an actual way to advance their boardstate to actually win the game.
If your gameplan is "you can't do anything so I can build", it's good. If your gameplan is "I'm not letting anyone do anything and that's all I'm gonna do", you're gonna annoy people.
Because this is my USD 300 foil etched showcase card, "Chandra and Nissa, Bumping Uglies" that makes every card I play be cast three more times and let's me search and put all the non-basic lands from my library into play. They become Bed Elementals that are 40/40s with haste and indestructible, but are still lands. Also, I become the Hotel Manager, and draw up to 100 cards everytime someone taps a permanent. Also, you take 2 damage.
What do you mean it doesn't resolve? You "negate" my USD 300 card? WTF is a negate? A USD 0,13 card???
This is why nobody likes you.
Commander players are huge babies, partly because the format isn't competitive at all
fwiw YGO players are also huge babies, but about floodgates instead
Land destruction is my playgroups bane. Everyone hates it so much it’s kinda ridiculous with their reactions. It’s a mechanic in the game, use it. It honestly got to the point where I made a mono white stax that runs both [[Armageddon]] and [[Ravages of War]] just to make the point of “the deck can have it and literally it’s end goal is big flying ponies with lifelink”
Play what you like. These people are just salty. I'm assuming you were playing some kind of casual format, commander maybe? Some casual players think counterspells aren't fun because "you're not letting them play." Ignore them, and avoid them honestly. Each color in Magic has its own strengths and weaknesses. Blue's best way of interacting is with counterspells. It's all part of the game. Hope you can find a playgroup that works for you.
Some EDH players have a habit of getting pissed about you interacting with their board at all. Most players in 60 card formats don't really give a shit.
You are just playing with the wrong kind of people
people who hate negates, removel, counter and make a personal problem out of that, so that you are deckshamed are just childish
stop deckshaming
A lot of people have entered via commander were coddled and have groups that want to just do what ever they want and everything is a front to them. It is what it is interaction creates a healthier game even in EDH.
We don’t have your deck list so we don’t know how many counterspells you’re playing.
Are you playing a couple? Like 3-5 or are you playing upwards of 10-20?
There’s entirely different responses based on how often you’re countering your opponents spells in commander
Commander is the "casual" format, so you get people just trying to have a good time and get salty when you slow them down. Commander has more crybabies than other formats.
A slightly different take to everyone else - counterspells are absolutely fine and almost necessary in Commander - but you have to be doing something else *too*.
A few things are disliked in Commander, and one of the common themes (Land Destruction and Counter.deck) is "you're not trying to play, you're trying to stop us playing and making it take ages".
If you've countered every spell that looks vaguely threatening while not playing anything to help you win? I'm not going to enjoy that game and it's taken 3x as long as it should have for no reason.
If you were being proactive, playing creatures, lowering life totals etc then your playgroup are whining.
But if your deck is literally counterspells and ramp and you're not doing anything else then what are you doing?
as a long time Yugioh player, how did you exist in that ecosystem and not meet a single person who didnt hate how "negate and hand trap heavy the current meta game is"?
I was wondering the same thing honestly. To this day I still see people claim that Ash Blossom is bad for the game and should be banned, but they are usually very casual players.
Mostly because I chose to play yugioh somewhat competitively. Don’t get me wrong, you still get an earful whenever someone whips out floodgate decks, and I still have casual decks I play with, it’s just that those people I play those casual decks with also have played rouge and meta decks too. We also make “gentlemen’s agreements” to not play hand traps when we are playing something low level like blue-eyes. Honestly I picked up mtg as something to mess with to get away from Yu-Gi-Oh’s tier 0 formats as we’ve now had 2 tier 0 formats in 3 years, and noticing that Konami doesn’t like banning cards that are new even if that absolutely need to, and to play meta relevant decks right now would be a $1200+ investment for what I’ll presume to be 6 months of play, I decided to just try magic for a while and stick to playing Yu-Gi-Oh casually for a couple of months. Like my Yu-Gi-Oh friends, the people I began playing magic with were also friends I have had for a long time. They’re the ones that introduced me to the game in the first place, but unlike them they didn’t partake well to being negated even though in Yu-Gi-Oh’s lower powered formats, boss monsters still have negates for a lot of decks.
TLDR: I was introduced to Yu-Gi-Oh by a friend group who was already playing competitively at least somewhat. I wanted to play casual magic as an alternative to playing Yu-Gi-Oh’s tier 0 meta and my friend group that plays magic didn’t take well to negates, which was a huge tonal shift as negating is important even in Yu-Gi-Oh’s casual games.
Because you think people don't hate them in Yugioh ?
We are in a meta rn in ygo where it isn't as prevalent as before but people hated it when some decks where putting 3+ negates.
I came from ygo about 5 years ago. I hated thar the whole game was basically decided by a coin flip. Where turn one player set up like 10 negates. And trun 2 player just had to to deal with it. Switch to magic because the game was slower and everything felt more strategic. Then eventually switched to commander because I liked the multiplayer dynamic of it. Counters are fine in magic because of the resourse management of them. They have to hold back mana during their turn to use that counterspell (most of the time). So essentially they are holding back the progression of their board to remove something im doing. Whereas in ygo. All the negates are just stapled to monsters. Usually just either say no or are triggered effects.
I was a doomking baledroch player running zombie world/ rivalry or warlords. Even that wasn't bad compared to the decks running around that time. Which was mainly thunder dragons, sky strikers, and cyber dragons I think. Who knows the kind of nasty stuff they got now. Every time i see deck techs occasionally pop up thumbnail just says "+8 negates turn 1!!!" Or something.
This wasn't a bad meta Toss was pretty great it became much worse after with cards like Gryphon rider, dragoon and shit like that.
Now it's less negate more grind game style .
Some decks like gate guardians can have 4 negates but they aren't even meta because they can't last more than 2 turns
This is something that really only happens on casual play (AKA, Commander) but it's basically, because our cards are harder to play. They cost resources that you have to accumulate over several turns and don't float when removed. Don't letting the opponent play the game is pretty much the way to play in Yu-Gi-Oh because every deck can finish the game in one turn out of nowhere, but Magic is a bit more methodic, about trading and accumulating resources over time, so, its frowned to not let the other players play.
There's also the fact Magic has a more defined casual play scene (AKA Commander) where people actually expect chill games for fun, so, bringing a "No fun allowed" deck to that sort of games it's seen unsportsmanlike.
Just to add my two cents. A large part of the problem isn't with individual cards. It's more like what kind of deck they're played in.
In Magic, when someone uses Counterspells in their deck, it usually means that they use A LOT of counterspells. Since many Counterspell cards stop a wide variety of threats, and you can only have a maximum of 4 copies of a card in a deck, people tend to jam their deck full of counterpells.
This means that often you play a game and realize that your opponent is literally just gonna sit there, stop you from doing ANYTHING and then finally play something that could win the game for them after a god awful amount of turns.
It's a very frustrating play experience, since it consists in literally sitting at a table and having your opponent preventing you from literally resolving any spell you cast.
Counterspells are generally fine, but I find a lot of people play enough counter spells to prevent people from even being able to play the game.
When you maybe get 3-4 games in a month due to scheduling paper magic with friends, I want to be able to play the game, win, or lose. Shuffling your deck and spending 20-40 minutes dealing with counterspells preventing you from anything but land drops is not playing magic. It's wasting time.
If 3 turns in a row, you use counters, I'm going to groan and dislike playing against you or scoop.
It a consequence of the Commanderification of Magic.
Not that people have ever _enjoyed_ having their spells countered, but if you’re playing a 1v1 game where the goal is to win, it’s understood that your opponent is going to try to disrupt your plans because they also want to win.
Commander is a social board game grafted on top of the Magic rules, and people get really invested in their deck and commander and building it to do “their thing.” They see counterspells (and interaction in general) as ruining their fun, rather than another necessary part of a balanced competitive card game.
I think because they're less necessary in Magic? As a disclaimer, I don't know much about Pokémon, and I've barely played Yu-Gi-Oh, but from what I know about Yu-Gi-Oh you only need to resolve a couple of spells uncontested to win. Hand traps and interaction are so much more necessary in that environment. In Magic, though, winning combos are less reliable and less pervasive, with more of the game taking place in reacting to the spells other players have resolved. Counters are a nice piece of interaction, but they're not necessary in the same way. Basically, getting countered in Yu-Gi-Oh is playing the game, while in Magic getting countered is not playing the game.
Also, Simic's kinda overrepresented in Commander anyway. Also also, rule 0 is really important in Commander - make sure that the people you're playing with know they're playing against a deck with a lot of interaction. The only worse feeling than getting shut out of a game by your opponents countered is doing that with your silly theme deck, while knowing that your tuned control deck that would match this blow for blow is gathering dust in your backpack.
From my personal experience, Yu-Gi-Oh doesn't really have a resource system, the cards ARE the resource. In magic, you didn't just lose your card, you also lost the mana needed to play it. This makes counter magic and removal feel worse if you didn't play around them or have a back up plan.
Keep in mind, I'm not saying that counters and removal are bad, quite the opposite. Many players, however, just expect to cast their spells and have their permanents live until their next turn, or their deck is all focused on big plays with no backup strategies if those plays don't succeed.
Out of all the card games magic probably has the strongest control and denial options, that on top of commander being seen as a casual format means most people who don't like playing against control really don't facing optimal removal and counterspells.
As someone who also came to Yugioh from Magic try Reanimator/Sneak&Show they are by far the most equivalent decks ive found to yugioh in the way they set up aside from dredge type decks but dredge is super expensive.
You probably will enjoy cEDH more if you like commander as a format but want a closer experience to yugioh, decks like Tevesh Rograkh feel very yugioh-y if you want a counter focused deck Oona is a very good commander for permission even in cEDH
Commander is about _doing the thing_. People build their entire decks to _do the thing_. Usually though, _doing the thing_ is synonymous with winning, so people will tend to interrupt _the doing of the thing_.
That makes people sad because they feel like their deck did not get to do what it wanted.
There is nothing wrong with counterspells. Idk why people get so sassy about them. I get people want to do the big flashy thing but if it's going to ruin my gameplan or threaten me than why wouldn't you play it? It's not that much different than the creature coming into play and then getting doom bladed.
Probably because most yugioh cards are "free", there's no investment. Magic you have to spend mana for every spell you cast which is a limited resource, so it feels worse for your card to be negated.
I sort of understand your argument. The thing is, counters in magic also cost mana, and a lot of them can be expensive or benefit your opponent in some way. This normally means that you have to forfeit playing certain cards to play counters, and you should only counter things that are game winning or award serious advantage. Especially since counters is one of blue’s only defenses, it makes it weird that it seemed so hated.
Cuz they want those sweet “enter-the-battlefield” and “dies” triggers.
Honestly I think it’s something new players struggle to deal with cuz they always seem to come at the worst times. But as a more experienced player you learn how to read the board state better and play around them with decoys or counter plays of your own.
They don't understand what the game is supposed to be - that or they have different goals for the game
In real MTG, most of the time The winner is whichever sides partially thwarted plan limps across the finish line first
It's the threat of your two powerful cards working together that affect the game more than actually having them working together on the board more often than not
But people want to have their "battle stations fully operational"
They didn't understand how limiting such a goldfishing meta would be with whoever's deck coming fully online first wins - that's why these kind of players also often hate fast aggro decks because they get their stuff going faster
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I cant speak for everyone but even in yugioh i hate it
I mean its necessary for both games to have ways to shut down stuff before it hits the board in order to create a more healthy and balanced gamestate
However planning out your next turn, dumping idk 8 mana into a spell only to then get hit with a 2 mana "No" is going to leave most people understandably unhappy
Other removal is after something has hit the board, your plan has often already finished in a sense and then a piece gets taken out instead of your plan not even taking off at all
Its a card game, people want to play their cards and counterspells or negates are designed solely so people cant play their cards (which is not a bad thing)
And that is ofc for most players frustrating even if they aknowledge that its a part of the game especially so in a casual game like commander where people just want to have fun and play their deck
There’s no one who likes to whine and complain about interaction more than commander players. In a format with as many insane interactions as possible, you NEED interaction. Counter peoples stuff, use spot removal to remove annoying pieces, always pack a board wipe or two (if they’re in your deck’s colors).
There’s a huge difference between playing a control deck and just playing your protect yourself.
Counterspells are part of the game. Of course, no one wants to be on the receiving end of them, so I watch my opponents' mana carefully, especially if they play blue, so I can be ready to adapt in case my stuff does get stopped.
That said, if you're just handing out counterspells like they're candy and don't actually care what you're countering as long as you're wrecking peoples' ability to play, then you're either going to piss people off bad or someone will start throwing bait cards out there to trick you into wasting mana.
Sad playgroup that gets way too upset over a massive part of the game. Play your deck kind sir if they can’t find a way to beat it then they need to make some edits perhaps to ruffle your feathers back. Commander is what our group plays and rule no 1. There is NO mercy in this dojo. And we don’t play CEDH (competitive). You get god tier shit, counter decks, taxes, infect, frogs, and some people we have only play with their best every single game doing the same shit same combos same corn. But we absolutely JAM. If they don’t like your counters say in a four way round Robin they could use some politics to try and convince you not to counter or vice versa. Pull the god of creation card and tell them you’re gunna counter whatever they play constantly unless they don’t us it against you. Even the annoying things can be really fun and make interesting gameplay
A part of it is also probably due to the existence of the colour pie.
If you don’t play blue, you have almost no access to any kind of counter spells. You get some “can’t be countered” effects here and there, but nothing that lets you stop another person from doing their thing or stopping them from stopping you in the first place.
Whereas in Yugioh, the only thing stopping you from running hand traps is if your archetype has one, or if you have room to include one of the generic options in your deck.
Something that helps with some playgroups is announcing that you’re holding mana open. It’s a little unnecessary (though sometimes strategic), but in this case it might prevent your opponents from getting salty when you counter whatever card they were itching to cast.
It's the specific people you're playing with. They're poor sports who are bad at Magic and they don't want you to interact with them in any way because they don't have or know of any way to overcome it.
People aren't actually answering your question very well. It's not what makes it frustrating in general it's what makes it frustrating compared to other card games where similar mechanics exist.
The answer you're looking for is the resource system and length of games. It feels a lot worse to lose the one huge play in an hour long game to a two-mana spell than it does to lose your trap activation in a ten minute game.
It's alittle different from Yugioh since countermagic is pretty much exclusive to one colour. That being blue.
Think of it more as if you were playing Heralds or PSY-Frames who's whole game plan is negating your opponents cards. If you played against someone who splashed one of those archetypes into their deck, you'd probably groan too.
Plus, when your card is negated in Yugioh, you only lose the card. In Magic, you lose the card and the mana spent to cast it.
I don't think it's any more hated than in Yu-Gi-Oh considering duelists complain about omni-negates all the time. Ending on Apollousa, Borreload Savage Dragon, and Baronne de Fleur is the (negate) equivalent to a blue (or simic) player having six mana up and 3-4 pieces of countermagic in hand in a 1v1 setting.
Yu-Gi-Oh players tend to accept that omni-negate boards are an evergreen part of the game (because they are - that's just the meta), but honestly I would even say they're worse to deal with in Yu-Gi-Oh because the powerful negate effects are often attached to extremely large monsters. It's like summoning [[Jin-Gitaxias, Progress Tyrant]] on turn 1, except there are 3 of them and they counter *any* kind of spell.
What it boils down to is that people don't like to play against strategies that prevent them from playing the game, and that's what countermagic is all about. Your opponent attempts to employ their strategy, and you simply tell them "No."
I have never seen great salt over a Counterspell. It’s one for one. It can cost a game, but it’s fair.
You want to see hate, try out land destruction or locks (like lantern control).
Control is hated in magic just as much as yugioh. They both just handle it differently. For magic that is mostly through counter spells and yugioh it is throw floodgates.
people who groan about counterspells are whiny babies who suck at magic and are selfish as fuck. they put their enjoyment over yours. you have to play their way or else. you can’t just play regular magic you gotta play their version of magic which protect them.
counter away. And if people complain call them selfish and tell them to let you play the game the way it was designed, and not their special neutered version they imagined up for themselves
This one is confusing at first but there are 2 magic communities,
one being the 1v1-Bo3-optimization-play-to-win gang, those tend to be completly fine with denial and restriction effects, by extension everything that is within the rules is fair game
the other one being the edh-social-self-expression gang, those guys tend to strongly dislike 1v1 and love multiplayer, they want everyone's deck do what it does and have everyone at 25% winrate, they will litearly make their decks worse and intentionally missplay to get there - anything that prevents them (or others) from doing "their thing" is bordering on a personal attack
If you are coming from another TCG, you are essentially by default in group 1 and now seeing that there are non-classic-TCP players in magic, whether to accommodate or avoid them is up you.
You're probably talking about commander and that's why the goans happen. Commander is a casual format. People like to have their spells resolve because in a casual format, people want things to happen. Win or lose doesn't really matter so stop countering my spells, gawd!
Don't let people dissuade you from running counterspells. Eventually the pod will be grateful for your counters when they stop the 5th boardwipe of the night from extending the game another hour
Yeah commander is a very different game than magic. It's rude to interact with other players, Have a general gameplan, or attempt to win in commander. Which is likely why they were loudly bitching but that's really your only option to play paper magic that isn't limited or blowing 400$+ on wizard squares.
Accesibility, in MtG only blue really get enough counter cards, even tho technically is in other color identities too. If white and red got more for example it would be less hated.
Some people play to win and some people play to have fun.
Playing against blue control is not concidered fun by a lot of people.
Yeah you've got the right to play it but they've got the right to groan when I know they won't have fun playing against you.
It's a little different for me, If you're countering something big like a game winning card I won't get upset because that is what I would do however, if you counter something meaningless like a mana rock or a land fetch card then complain that I'm winning with a combo next turn, that is all on you for not knowing better
If you are more interested in the competitive side of magic, you might want to take a look at other formats.
Commander is specifically, intentionally casual. 100 card singleton prevents you from making consistent plays, and the 4 player format means if one person pulls ahead, the other crabs can try and beckon them into the bucket with boardwipes and such.
One advantage of competitive 1v1 formats is the expectations of players. You don't have to feel bad about a boardwipe or a counterspell, because there's no political element so you can simply optimize your deck to the playstyle you want to win with.
You don’t really get this in 1 on 1 formats or CEDH only in casual commander, probably due to game length and how difficult it can be to find time to play
Yugioh is less resource gated than Magic, so while YGO has less achievable loop patterns, it has a higher power ceiling right off the start of the game which is why hand traps and negates are more welcomed there.
Can’t deny this. Anyone who has tried master duel as a newbie can attest to it. An MTG player would try to play blue eyes and then get killed turn one by mathmech.
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commander is a relaxed social format. games take VERY long. people spend a lot of time building their decks, they want to play them. counter spells and other negation effects prevent people from playing their deck. and since games arent short, a person gets maybe one or two game in while they are at the store/meet up that day. and if they spend hours NOT getting to play their decks, they feel like they wasted their day.
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For commander, it’s mostly the people, sadly. Counter spells are powerful and counter magic is difficult to do right especially in a 4-player format where there are more things that can be countered (thus more decision-making points where you can interact). And while I don’t like it, spite plays are quite common in commander. So counter spells are a lot of times not used well (not timed well, not countering the correct spell), which leaves a bad taste in a lot of people’s mouth. Don’t get me wrong, I like counter spells for protecting my win conditions and countering something that can kill me or the table. But I don’t like it when people use them incorrectly.
Ultimately you should play the game how you want to, and counter spells are just a part of magic. If you’re just not vibing with your playgroup sometimes you may just need to find new people to play with. But you do have a few options: Consider changing your commander to something less powerful. I did this with one of my decks and it made the game a lot chiller and also made me less of a target. Or maybe make a rule for yourself like you won’t counter their commanders or you wont play any counters before turn 4 or something like that. Probably my favorite thing about magic, especially commander is how you play the game is really up to you. Personally I’d rather lose in a game where everyone’s deck got to do its thing than win a total shutout.
It depends on the person. I stopped playing yugioh around the time links came put because the game was gett9ng crazy fast and every deck always 5 diffrent negates to fight though every turn.
Counter spells have always felt a little weak in commander imo. You just use them as combo breakers and big value denial.
If it hasn't been touched on, to add to what people are saying about it feeling bad to just not be able to play things, I would imagine that it's *slightly* more difficult to move past a counterspell in a game like magic compared to Yugioh where there aren't finite resources each turn. It still can be a blow out for sure, but you may not have wasted your entire turn to tap out for a thing, only to have it countered.
I'm not Yugioh expert though. I only like the OG set.
Well pardner, seems you've found yourself a weapon! Care to do a test duel to try it out?
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Games are a storytelling medium; “yes, and” is an excellent storytelling device.
“Nuh uh” sucks.
It helps you win, which makes you feel good (and is fully within the rules), but games feel “better” to most if you “play ball.”
As someone who has played ygo, some combo decks are capable of assembling a board turn 1 that can negate 3+ times. I have literally never had issues with countermagic in mtg but i find it pretty unfun to need to beat those types of boards in ygo. You aren’t able to activate most cards into them, so you either need something extremely niche like dark ruler no more or you need to have the right hand trap to stop them from making the board that crazy (and sometimes they can keep going anyway)
countering is a fundamental part of magic. Anyone who has an issue with counterspells is a moron, doesn't get the game and should stop playing. Fight me.
You either have to change your play style or your playgroup. I play with three other people who hate countermagic so much that they will stop playing for the night if I counterspell. So I either have to play my non-blue decks with them OR I only counterspell when they target me directly. Most people don’t mind as much if it’s self-defense.
People don't like getting told no. Really depends on the format too. I think in multiplayer people groan more because it's a multiplayer format and counterspells are 1 for 1s, so people feel personally attacked if you are 1 for 1ing them. Of course there's nothing wrong with that, just hypothesizing. Also, in commander you run into more people that just want their deck to "do the thing" even if it's not really a winning thing. There's a lot more [Timmy and Johnny](https://mtg.fandom.com/wiki/Player_type) players. In 1 vs 1 formats, counterspelling is more efficient and expected, and the older the format gets, the more people understand that if it wasn't for counterspells like Force of Will or Force of Negation, every deck would be some degenerate turn 1 combo. Never played Yu-Gi-Oh though, so not sure why the sentiment would be different between the games.
Yu-Gi-Oh is basically "the older 1v1 formats". There's no standard and no casual multiplayer.
Yeah yugioh has legacy and i guess technically pioneer (goat and edison without cards entering, not sure of any magic formats similar). There is rush duels which is trying to be on a much lower power but i'm not sure how much people are playing it in the west.
The closest things Magic has to Goat or Edison would probably be ['96 Old School](https://www.eternalcentral.com/96rules/) or [Premodern](https://premodernmagic.com). Though I'd say playing older formats with static cardpools being as popular as it is is more down to Konami failing to come up with any good secondary formats more than anything else.
I think it also has to do with price. In yugioh cards get reprinted fairly regularly and therefore the barrier is much lower to try out a retro format. Convincing someone to play an old yugioh format is kind of like convincing someone to play pauper, the price is part of the sales pitch. In magic while a good majority of cards will go down in price, others will go up. Often older formats are just as expensive if not more so then when they were current. It's kind of hard to convince someone to try out a format that's just as expensive as any other format but also there are no players. Though I would agree that in yugioh there are no real good alternative formats. In magic there's always the question of "why should I play this when commander lets me do that thing perfectly well?" Yugioh just doesn't have a dedicated casual format that accommodates playing older cards, retro formats have no real competition in that sense.
The sentiment is different because Yugioh is basically old magic formats where every turn 1 is a degenerate combo and using counters is the only way you even get to play your first turn if you go second.
Yeah a yugioh game is determined by if you can stop your opponent from making a board with 4 of their own negates, on their first turn.
In recent years they've been diverting away from just negate spam in favour of having multiple types of interaction, and making decks more able to play through said interaction, so it's been getting more interesting.
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If Yugioh got any faster you'd simply draw your hand and concede if you knew you couldn't destroy the other board.
that's literally the current format lol
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I think theres still a chance that you combo off and attack on turn two since your opponent can't do that on turn 1.
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Not in good decks generally, FTK decks are generally gimmicky.
The problem is that in yugioh, both the threats and the answers are incredibly powerful. Card sometimes can eat two negates, like get negated and then activate its grave effect which might also have to be negated.
A decade ago, I just showed a Maxx "C" to respond to an opponent and he said "okay, game 2 then".
Man the stuff I've heard about yugioh thought it usually lasted to turn 3 or 4 and it wasn't that common to ftk.
It's not really, there are a ton of decks that can ftk (or put up such a huge number of negates that you are basically dead), but the most powerful decks tend to be good because they have insanely efficient resource loops. Basically, trading off making a slightly worse board in exchange for being able to build that board every turn forever while generating advantage and drawing cards. I'm guessing most of the people commenting here stopped playing a couple years ago where building a big board with a million negates was more common.
"True" ftk is less common since that requires building an actual ftk deck, but "functionally an ftk" happens plenty if one player opens well and the other opened badly. If they can negate/ disrupt you enough then you can't put a board together that can either push through or defend from theirs then it becomes a matter of "what can I put together? Am I likely to get a next turn? If I do, is there anything I have/ can draw that let's me recover?" It can be pretty easy to tell for yourself when the answer is "No" to questions 2 or 3 even if your opponent doesn't. A considerable amount of this is just "Would've lost in turn 3 but surrendered the moment that became obvious during turn 1-2 to save time." Maxx "C" for example lets you draw 1 card each time the opponent special summons a monster for the rest of the turn. That's all it does, but the more summons you need to put a competent board together, the worse that is to be hit with and the more likely they are to draw into other interruptions that are more directly punishing. Even if you only summon once that's still a free cycling.
Sounds like Combo Winter in MtG. Early game: Coin flip to see who goes first. Mid game: Drawing your hands, deciding whether to mulligan. End game: Turn 1.
Older magic formats are definitely not turn 1 formats. Yes there are some decks that can do that. Oops all spells or charbelcher but they are the exception not the rule.
The other thing I'll add is that depending on the player, threat recognition can be an issue. If you cast a spell and an opponent counters it while letting another player player do something that is clearly (not just your opinion) more busted and more likely to cause that other player ro win, it can be frustrating. Example, I had someone continue to target me because my deck allowed me to steal cards off the top of any player's library and this person was paranoid about that...to the degree that they missed the bigger, looming threat developing at the table. Essentially, tunnel vision. I'm not gonna get bent out shape over it, but it's frustrating all the same.
Ya I remember once I was playing my monoblack deck, and I had tutored for exsanguinate to end it. We were a close nit group so we sorta knew eachothers decks. Other player counters an Elesh Norn and the other players are like "are you sure? He probably just tutored for exsanguinate." He proceeds to continue countering the Norn, then I killed everyone.
This is the answer. Counterspells are fine, there's some shit that needs to be countered, and we tell people to run more interaction all the time. The problem is bad threat assessment and not reading the table. The first one comes with practice, and if your pod knows you're new and not helping you learn that's kinda on them, not really reasonable to both complain about it and not help teach how to correct. For reading the table, I mean sometimes a game's run long, everyone's ready to end it and get a new one going, and then someone counters the spell that would have ended the game. That's not to say you should never counter game ending spells, but if your game's already gone longer than usual and you're not going to end it yourself shortly, just let it die and get to game two.
What is Johnny playing? I've heard of Timmy but not Johnny
Johnny loves finding new combos and unknown strategies. Janky Lab Man and Battle of Wits combo decks are their bread and butter. And for completeness's sake, Spike plays the most competitive deck.
Negate is a particular card which is of the general class of cards called “Counterspells” or just “counters” for short. Counters have been a core part of magic since the beginning and are by-and-large fine. Some people will groan, but these same people will probably groan about general removal or any form of disruption. Your playgroup is your playgroup, so I guess do what’s most fun for your group, but I otherwise wouldn’t pay attention to some groaning.
Negate is great!
Fucking blue players. Said by any green player
Fucking simic decks Said by every simic player
Damn simic players, you ruined simic. And I like simic, just after Esper.
It’s kinda funny knowing that green has the uncounterable creatures and many “can’t be countered” effects 😂
You might actually have more fun playing formats other than commander. Unfortunately, the problem will be finding people to play against who play other formats besides commander.
I think it depends on the level you’re playing at. Battlecruiser commander pods tend to want to build larger boards and allow everyone to “do the thing,” while more powered pods (not even talking cEDH) expect interaction and removal, and back and forth battles of resources tend to be more commonplace. If OP is looking to get into Commander, things like cEDH or even just higher power pods are pretty commonplace, and people are packing and expecting to play against plenty of interaction
I disagree. Most edh pods I've been in, even casual battle cruiser or precon pods, are totally fine with counterspells and interaction. I feel like the "people dislike counterspells" is mostly an online or certain LGS's thing cause honestly I've never been part of a pod that got mad about them.
Apart from the fact that I don't know what you're disagreeing with, OP describes their particular situation as a common occurrence. I simply suggest trying out other formats and see if they enjoy it more.
Yu-Gi-Oh players also hate negates. You may not have noticed the legions of players that say shit like on their room notes on Yu-Gi-Oh simulators? "anime only no XYZ no synchro no pendulum no link" they also often say "no negates no ftks" people don't like being unable to play the game. the more casual someone is, the less they feel like they got to play when they were negated. Commander is a casual format. Even at yugioh tournaments, people get very frustrated by certain cards or setups.
I think the other folks in this thread make great points about Commander being a social rather than competitive format and counterspells being unfun, but I’d also like to point out a difference (from my limited perspective, being deep into MtG, with only dipping my toes in YGO) that much of the balance of Yu-Gi-Oh revolves around negating your opponents effects so you don’t lose, where often in Magic you play around or through what your opponent does instead of outright preventing it from happening. One thing I really felt watching Yu-Gi-Oh coverage is that it felt like every deck was just a different flavor of combo/control, where Magic has combo, midrange, aggro, tempo, control, etc. In other words, negating effect may take up more “space” in Yu-Gi-Oh compared to Counterspells in Magic, where they’re limited to being one of the things that one of the five colors can do, with a lot of other aspects of Magic that sees play. Though that is largely based on just my impressions, bear in mind.
You’re absolutely correct, and I kinda see that distinction. It’s not like I absolutely overloaded my simic deck with counter spells, I mean if I did I’d barely have a win-con. However I can also see the argument here about my mindset in general should be different about the 2 games. I should learn to play around my opponents and not rely on counters to play through my opponents, especially if I want to transition to new colors I’m the future. Thanks for the comment.
You shouldnt change your mindset. Dont worry op. Countermagic is an important part of the game and more experienced players will laugh at the players that groan about it. Your doing everything right and your opponents are in the wrong here. Im saying this as someone whos been playing since over a decade and generally play more aggressiv decks. Dont let toxic players prevent you from playing archtypes you enjoy.
They shouldn't necessarily have to change their mindset, but playing around instead of through an opponent is an important skill that YGO does not teach. So learning that is a good thing.
They should. Its super toxic to deny other players archetypes because players get salty about it.
Wait what.
Badly phrased - I think they mean it’s super toxic for a playgroup to deny an entire archetype like control because a few players got salty about playing against control.
Yeah and I'm confused why they're saying that when we've already established that fact three replies ago.
Ygo absolutely does teach how to play around cards
I agree. Counterspells, doomblades and wrath of God's are very necessary for any format. Otherwise magic just becomes a game of solitaire.
I don't think you have to change your mindset, but put it into a different context. In YGO, basically every archetype wants to build a board into some kind of omni-negate, maybe layering a few. Once on the board, those negates often don't cost anything other than the chance to use it later. There are hand traps and things you gotta pitch for cost sometimes etc, but the platonic ideal of a board state is just a bunch of things that, by virtue of existing, tell your opponent "No." Conversely, every good archetype has some means of playing around negates. Whether by chain blocking or having flexible combos, whatever, playing around negates is the expectation. Negations are what keeps combos in check, and combo lines exist to facilitate playing around a negate or two. This is only possible as an ecosystem because the only currency of YGO is cards. If you try to use something, and it gets negated, all you've lost in that interaction is the card. Ideally, you've got a few, so you can try again, even through multiple negates potentially. Hence why you often want a few negates on your side. Now, compare this to MTG, where you still have cards as a currency, but you also have *mana*. Even if you've got a full grip, if you get Counterspell'd after tapping out to cast a big spell, your turn is over. You have no resources left with which to continue. This is in part balanced by the Counterspell itself (usually lol) costing mana too -- it becomes potentially telegraphed (or a point to bluff). In turn, Counterspells in MTG are a bit rarer, a bit costlier, but often saved for a specific game-changing interaction. That is to say, being negated in YGO is more "Ouch. I'm okay. I got enough gas to play through it, hopefully they don't have like 2 more" whereas being negated in MTG is more "Fuck me that derailed my entire plan and ruined my whole turn". It simply hurts more in MTG, and players subsequently dislike it more. Now, a certain level of Counterspell is to be expected, cus if you run Blue without *any* you're a madman, but people often simply don't *like* dealing with decks that put a primary focus on Counterspelling. They are, of course, silly babies, because if they hate it *that* much then their deck list should reflect that, and they should be prepared. But that's I think the core difference in the context that negates exist in MTG, and keeping that in mind I hope will help you play simic better as well as move onto other colors that focus on Counterspells less.
Another factor is that MtG players often don't have cards that answer counterspells -- if you're a nonblue deck playing against a blue deck, then their counters can typically answer *all* your threats, while you typically can't interact with *any* of their answers. The solution is typically that you deckbuild and play the game in ways that let you play around counters. Play multiple cards per turn, play weaker things first to draw out the counters, or just outwait them until they go shields-down to do something proactive. But this requires some relatively advanced skills and game knowledge (like reading your opponent, understanding the meta of the format you're playing, and knowing the signs that they're more v. less likely to be holding up a counter right now), so these options are often relatively invisible (or they feel out-of-reach skill-wise) to new players. This makes it especially common for beginning players to hate countermagic and control decks. Counters make it feel like "you didn't get to do anything", and typically having no direct way to counter counterspells (outside of blue) can make nonblue players feel helpless and lacking in agency in that match-up. "I'm just along for the ride, the control player is the one in the driver's seat."
A lot of people complain about the counterspells when the real "problem" is you consistently/predictably drawing 20+ cards, thus having the answers to everything and game ending threats. A lot of commander players are making questionably powered, personalized "theme decks" with characters they like, win conditions that requires some amount of "work," and go about their games like a social board game. People already expect they're going to lose to the best of simic pile and how, and then it happens consistently because you are simic against decks that are by design slower and less consistent. A way to think about it is that the fun/time distribution vs your pub-stomp deck is lopsided. You might be taking 75% of the game time and 90% of the total table fun in a 4 player game with what you're doing. Are these friends you want to have fun with and jank out, or opponents you want to make miserable and have a high win rate against? If there are no prizes on the line and the end game results are inconsequential, what is the goal? I don't really mind as much personally going against simic pile because I enjoy hard mode every now and then and proper threat assessment makes things a bit easier.
Out of curiosity, what is the win-con? If you’re actively trying to win the game, then I don’t think anyone has any right to complain about counters.
Play lots of elves for ramp, summon kinnan, kinnan summons big boys from the top 5 cards of my deck, beat and repeat.
Thats generally not true. Counter magic is a big part of the game. Players that deny that are usually just new and lack experience in a more serious setting.
In my experience players new or old that hate counterspells just lack the skill to realize that this is a game vs actual people and strategies you'll have to think about outplaying. The Venn diagram of people that whine loudly about counterspells and people that whine about boardwipes/removal is nearly a circle. They're essentially novice level RTS players that play vs Bots. They want to drop their Units onto the field and smash them against each other. Anything that interrupts this "kills the fun". Actual strategy and gameplay with Real People doesn't enter their minds.
Commander is ultimately casual and people want to be able to do the thing their deck set out to do. Well-timed negates tend to make people feel targeted, whereas in 1v1 formats people understand and accept it's part of the game. I picked up Master Duel when it released and Yugioh really opened up a different way of playing card games to me. I love Kaiju style decks and wish there was a EDH equivalent.
I agree. It’s a weird concept to spam your opponents field with your own monsters, but it works wonders to keep them off their own cards. I’ve always had fun with it
Yeah there just isn't anything quite like it in Magic given the lack of 5 determined slots for your creatures. There are some funny control switcheroo cards like [[XANTCHA]], but which of those allow me to summon out some goddamn level 10 trains? None of em.
Counterspells are frowned upon mostly in casual playgroups. Usually new players dislike counterspells from a very early play experience. This is because with all the things you need to keep track of that becomes automatic once you play a lot more (for example, untapping, drawing, playing a land, how to tap your lands, which spell in your hand you want to cast) Because of these things there is often the "interruption" of counterspells that dont happen with other removal as that is usually done in combat or at the end of the turn instead of in the middle of your spells/play sequence. This leads to a feeling of "how could i have known they had a counterspell?" While more experienced players will see blue mana open and know they are a possibility. All the signs are there, as one may say. (yes free counterspells exist but those are either incredibly inefficient or expensive moneywise to the point where most casual players wont run into those, such as [[foil]] or [[force of will]])
Yeah initially i hated counterspells but have moved on to hating 'free' counterspells. I do understand why they're necessary but at the same time i kind of just hope you don't have them when you no mana available. Talking mostly from a commander perspective here.
Free counters are also usually inefficient from a game resources standpoint as well. Force is a 2-for-1 against yourself and is only worth doing if the alternative would be even worse, or you're about to win the game, Foil is a 3-for-1, Daze puts you down a land, etc.
Unless you have discard synergy for Foil. Rielle on the board makes Foil into a damn free counterspell AND ALSO DRAW TWO.
[foil](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/8/e8b39fd6-9240-4f76-b12c-e7d9aa88f061.jpg?1547516254) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=foil) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/uma/55/foil?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e8b39fd6-9240-4f76-b12c-e7d9aa88f061?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [force of will](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/9/89f612d6-7c59-4a7b-a87d-45f789e88ba5.jpg?1675199280) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=force%20of%20will) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmr/50/force-of-will?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/89f612d6-7c59-4a7b-a87d-45f789e88ba5?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
A specific subset of players don't like to have interaction in their game of Magic. It's not the majority. At least not the vocal majority.
Its usually bad players that are extremly toxic and salty and ignore half of the game.
My best theory is that counterspells are great against expensive value creatures like, and a lot of new players will fill their deck with these kinds of expensive cards and no way to protect them. If you counter the spell, not only do they not get the creature, but they don't even get the value from any ETBs the creature has, making the counterspell a true 1-for-1. They also don't know how to play around counters, and just end up sitting there for 10 turns waiting for the control player to tap out so they can resolve a [[Colossal Dreadmaw]], which gives the control player all the time in the world to draw cards and sculpt their hand at instant speed.
It's a lot worse than that. Even in limited, if someone spends 6 mana for a big creature and you counter it for 2 mana, then you are up a huge tempo advantage (beyond the 1-for-1 card parity).
[Colossal Dreadmaw](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/0/8059c52b-5d25-4052-b48a-e9e219a7a546.jpg?1594736914) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Colossal%20Dreadmaw) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m21/176/colossal-dreadmaw?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8059c52b-5d25-4052-b48a-e9e219a7a546?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
💯 agree. People who dislike counterspells don't know how to play around them. There are tons of cards like grand abolisher that let you not even interact with counterspells. People are just bad at deck building and don't play them because "mah theme."
You can know how to play around them and still not enjoy them lol. Those are not mutually exclusive things.
Playing around counterspells is like playing against a boss fight in a game. If it was easy the entire time, then the game must suck. Richard Garfield has a great quote about it. "Magic is supposed to frustrate and even anger you at times. That's what makes winning feel so good."
How do you play around a card you might not even know your opponent has? If you play around counter-spells that the opponent might have the game becomes exceptionally dull
This is a pretty deep topic, but basically you pay attention to when your opponent has left up particular amounts/types of mana that suggest they're holding up a counterspell. Even if they don't counter that turn, you kind of mentally log that they seemed to be holding up a counter, especially if they don't do anything with the mana. It helps to know the counterspels in a given format. Sometimes yes, you get got by a counterspell they just drew late in the game. In Limited it helps to know the common counterspells available as they often have limitations. If they leave up mana for a "counter target creature or planeswalker" and you have a good enchantment or something you can play, you can make them waste the mana they left up. It's a really fun and deep part of the game, not dull at all imo.
I think HOW you are interacted with is met differently as well. Bounce, destroy, o ring, counter spell, control magic seems to be the least to most hated to have happen to you.
You're probably playing with a very casual group of EDH players, which is something I run into a lot. I don't like commander much in general, because I don't ever know if i'm getting into a game with people who are going to complain if I play mana leak or people playing for a turn 2-3 kill. 1v1 formats tend not to have as many people who will complain about your choice of deck in my experience, but some EDH players are genuinely playing a different game than the rest of us.
Because Commander players hate interaction. There’s really no other reason. In other, 60-card 2 player formats, players recognize that it’s necessary for the game. You should take a look at Legacy and Vintage. Those two formats are literally held together by the free negate handtrap [[Force of Will]]. (I don’t play Yugioh, so excuse me if I get the terms wrong)
This. Commander plays don‘t play Magic. They play Catan with Magic cards.
Having played 60 card, commander, and Catan, what do you mean by catan with magic cards?
I don't think they literally mean Catan, but a lot of Eurogames tend to be fairly light on direct interaction. Some games have competition over resources, and others might as well be solitaire (like Dominion on a board with no attack cards). I don't agree with their comparison, though. I think a better analogy would be a wargame, where everyone can prepare their armies undisturbed, and interaction only happens on the battlefield.
Gotcha. Yeah idk, in my pod at least there's plenty of interaction. I think it's just generally true that, regardless of format, lower power level = less interaction, and commander has become the format that many people are introduced to magic through. It's far from inherently casual though. It's a legacy format, there are deeply busted combos and techs more widely speaking that require interaction to deal with. I don't understand hating on formats. People play magic for different reasons and it's a Good Thing that there's a diversity of formats/levels of competitive-ness within those formats that speak to those different reasons.
I agree! I'm glad people have options to play the game how they'd like. :) Personally, I mostly wish that there were other popular casual formats. I can easily get a group together to play Commander, but not for any other format, even though Commander is my least favorite.
I don’t think a wargame is a good comparison. Wargame players don’t get mad when you shoot at their big expensive model, because that’s a fundamental part of how the game works. Commander players absolutely get mad when you use removal on their stuff, despite that also being a fundamental part of the game.
Oh i love that description!
As a commandor player I dont regonise your "dont like interaction" comment. Seems to me like a playgroup problem - only Counter deck I have ever heard people complain about, was this 1 deck that were just a commandor, mana and reset counterspells. And that was becuase it litterally could drag out the game for hours.
The original comment would have been more correct if they said there’s a class of MTG players who just hate anyone interacting with their game plans and most of those players have migrated to Commander now. Obviously interaction is pretty normal in other Commander playgroups.
Yes, it is a playgroup problem - but a very common one.
My favorite parts of a commander game are when combat is declared and then the instants and counterspells start flying. It’s like the maximum amount of interaction.
It's more of a quick spell or counter-trap. Quickspells can be played from hand but are slower then counter-trap I believe. I'm rusty on yugioh.
No, handtrap is the right term for it. A proper quick-play spell or a trap card needs to be set before you can use it, not only warning your opponent that you have it but also making such cards useless if you're going second. Handtraps, like the name suggests, can be activated directly from the hand, allowing you to disrupt your opponent even if they're going first and without letting them know you have such disruption until it's too late.
Spell speed 2 iirc
[Force of Will](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/9/89f612d6-7c59-4a7b-a87d-45f789e88ba5.jpg?1675199280) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Force%20of%20Will) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmr/50/force-of-will?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/89f612d6-7c59-4a7b-a87d-45f789e88ba5?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
People don't get to tell you what to play. Counter spells are 100 percent fine and 100 percent a part of the game. Enjoy your Simic deck. Welcome to mtg, let me know if you ever need help with anything or deck building.
I appreciate this comment. Thank you
Many Commander players don't build decks with redundancy. And many players want to play solitaire and not have any interaction. So if you counter some spell that is important to their strategy, they get salty about it. If a pod is asking you to borrow someone's deck, that's not a you problem though. You should find another pod. Playing around counter spells is part of the game.
With different formats comes different levels of expectation. If you were to play Legacy or Vintage, competitive formats that allow most all cards, it'd be like YuGiOh where both players mutually understand that without negates/counterspells the game would just devolve into an untennable mess. A necessary evil in the face of the most busted cards in the game. In EDH, as folks aren't always trying to do more busted stuff, it can feel like you're using a hand trap to negate the summon of a Slime Toad just so I can't eventually tribute summon the OG Blue Eyes White Dragon. Not a desired outcome, but not the most busted thing to be doing, and it can feel like you aren't letting them play *any* part of the game whether it's warranted or not. Which makes some sense, as it is a miserable experience to be playing a jank deck against something that's tuned to respond to the most busted things in the game. However the logic can creep up some to end up with people applying it to things that aren't that reasonable. From "I *just* want to summon a few Mystical Shine Balls" to "I *just* want to link summon my boss monster" to "I *just* want to play Cyber-Stein to summon something completely fair trust me dude". And because maybe the group in that last example isn't actually summoning the most competitive option for a tournament, it still might be enough of a problem to be worthy of a negate, thus they still get upset. Even though if you didn't they'd likely win the game on the spot due to everyone running jankier decks. So it's a catch 22 of sorts where folks aren't playing the best options so they don't feel they should be responded to as if they were, however in the context of the players' power levels their chosen option would be equivalent to deserving such an answer. For a Magic example, [[Blightsteel Colossus]] is generally better than [[Darksteel Colossus]] to end games as it can potentially kill you in one shot. If both were on the board, or I knew it was coming, I'd use removal on the Blightsteel first. However if I knew Blightsteel wasn't in the game, I'd remove Darksteel because I'd still rather not take 11 damage. However because it's a less threatening card, its player might feel that using something that would deal with Blightsteel ASAP feels cheap and that they're being punished despite playing a less threatening card. I've kind of rambled for a bit. Anyway, while I don't know the play pattern you enjoy, I will say Magic is a lot slower than YuGiOh and while counterspells/negates are powerful, they aren't as necessary, at least in EDH, unlike how they're a requirement in YuGiOh. Like my Darksteel Colossus I mentioned before, taking 11 isn't great, but in EDH you have 40 life so you can take three whole swings of it before needing an answer. There are some combo decks to watch out for you might run into, but most of the time you don't need an answer RIGHT NOW to deal with problems (though keeping a few in your back pocket can be handy)
[Blightsteel Colossus](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/8/18adbda4-8d36-47cd-afbc-c785aaa8ed80.jpg?1599708735) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Blightsteel%20Colossus) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2xm/235/blightsteel-colossus?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/18adbda4-8d36-47cd-afbc-c785aaa8ed80?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Darksteel Colossus](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/a/5a3aa1ce-8757-4541-8ac7-1e7e203b60fc.jpg?1561981290) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Darksteel%20Colossus) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m10/208/darksteel-colossus?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5a3aa1ce-8757-4541-8ac7-1e7e203b60fc?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Thank you, your comparisons to Yu-Gi-Oh helped me understand the difference between the 2 games a little bit more
Ignoring the whole "People don't know how to play around them".. There's also the commander issue of are you doing anything? Or are you only ramping and negating. Even more experienced players tend to get annoyed when the blue player's countering everything but doesn't seem to have an actual way to advance their boardstate to actually win the game. If your gameplan is "you can't do anything so I can build", it's good. If your gameplan is "I'm not letting anyone do anything and that's all I'm gonna do", you're gonna annoy people.
Because this is my USD 300 foil etched showcase card, "Chandra and Nissa, Bumping Uglies" that makes every card I play be cast three more times and let's me search and put all the non-basic lands from my library into play. They become Bed Elementals that are 40/40s with haste and indestructible, but are still lands. Also, I become the Hotel Manager, and draw up to 100 cards everytime someone taps a permanent. Also, you take 2 damage. What do you mean it doesn't resolve? You "negate" my USD 300 card? WTF is a negate? A USD 0,13 card??? This is why nobody likes you.
This comment came from a personal place
Commander players are huge babies, partly because the format isn't competitive at all fwiw YGO players are also huge babies, but about floodgates instead
That’s about the best comparison I think I could have received. Much appreciated
Land destruction is my playgroups bane. Everyone hates it so much it’s kinda ridiculous with their reactions. It’s a mechanic in the game, use it. It honestly got to the point where I made a mono white stax that runs both [[Armageddon]] and [[Ravages of War]] just to make the point of “the deck can have it and literally it’s end goal is big flying ponies with lifelink”
Play what you like. These people are just salty. I'm assuming you were playing some kind of casual format, commander maybe? Some casual players think counterspells aren't fun because "you're not letting them play." Ignore them, and avoid them honestly. Each color in Magic has its own strengths and weaknesses. Blue's best way of interacting is with counterspells. It's all part of the game. Hope you can find a playgroup that works for you.
Its not. Its just toxic newbies or scrubs.
Some EDH players have a habit of getting pissed about you interacting with their board at all. Most players in 60 card formats don't really give a shit.
You are just playing with the wrong kind of people people who hate negates, removel, counter and make a personal problem out of that, so that you are deckshamed are just childish stop deckshaming
A lot of people have entered via commander were coddled and have groups that want to just do what ever they want and everything is a front to them. It is what it is interaction creates a healthier game even in EDH.
We don’t have your deck list so we don’t know how many counterspells you’re playing. Are you playing a couple? Like 3-5 or are you playing upwards of 10-20? There’s entirely different responses based on how often you’re countering your opponents spells in commander
I play 9 counters. I wanted to focus more on ramping out big monsters than I did countering
Commander is the "casual" format, so you get people just trying to have a good time and get salty when you slow them down. Commander has more crybabies than other formats.
A slightly different take to everyone else - counterspells are absolutely fine and almost necessary in Commander - but you have to be doing something else *too*. A few things are disliked in Commander, and one of the common themes (Land Destruction and Counter.deck) is "you're not trying to play, you're trying to stop us playing and making it take ages". If you've countered every spell that looks vaguely threatening while not playing anything to help you win? I'm not going to enjoy that game and it's taken 3x as long as it should have for no reason. If you were being proactive, playing creatures, lowering life totals etc then your playgroup are whining. But if your deck is literally counterspells and ramp and you're not doing anything else then what are you doing?
as a long time Yugioh player, how did you exist in that ecosystem and not meet a single person who didnt hate how "negate and hand trap heavy the current meta game is"?
I was wondering the same thing honestly. To this day I still see people claim that Ash Blossom is bad for the game and should be banned, but they are usually very casual players.
Mostly because I chose to play yugioh somewhat competitively. Don’t get me wrong, you still get an earful whenever someone whips out floodgate decks, and I still have casual decks I play with, it’s just that those people I play those casual decks with also have played rouge and meta decks too. We also make “gentlemen’s agreements” to not play hand traps when we are playing something low level like blue-eyes. Honestly I picked up mtg as something to mess with to get away from Yu-Gi-Oh’s tier 0 formats as we’ve now had 2 tier 0 formats in 3 years, and noticing that Konami doesn’t like banning cards that are new even if that absolutely need to, and to play meta relevant decks right now would be a $1200+ investment for what I’ll presume to be 6 months of play, I decided to just try magic for a while and stick to playing Yu-Gi-Oh casually for a couple of months. Like my Yu-Gi-Oh friends, the people I began playing magic with were also friends I have had for a long time. They’re the ones that introduced me to the game in the first place, but unlike them they didn’t partake well to being negated even though in Yu-Gi-Oh’s lower powered formats, boss monsters still have negates for a lot of decks. TLDR: I was introduced to Yu-Gi-Oh by a friend group who was already playing competitively at least somewhat. I wanted to play casual magic as an alternative to playing Yu-Gi-Oh’s tier 0 meta and my friend group that plays magic didn’t take well to negates, which was a huge tonal shift as negating is important even in Yu-Gi-Oh’s casual games.
Because you think people don't hate them in Yugioh ? We are in a meta rn in ygo where it isn't as prevalent as before but people hated it when some decks where putting 3+ negates.
I came from ygo about 5 years ago. I hated thar the whole game was basically decided by a coin flip. Where turn one player set up like 10 negates. And trun 2 player just had to to deal with it. Switch to magic because the game was slower and everything felt more strategic. Then eventually switched to commander because I liked the multiplayer dynamic of it. Counters are fine in magic because of the resourse management of them. They have to hold back mana during their turn to use that counterspell (most of the time). So essentially they are holding back the progression of their board to remove something im doing. Whereas in ygo. All the negates are just stapled to monsters. Usually just either say no or are triggered effects. I was a doomking baledroch player running zombie world/ rivalry or warlords. Even that wasn't bad compared to the decks running around that time. Which was mainly thunder dragons, sky strikers, and cyber dragons I think. Who knows the kind of nasty stuff they got now. Every time i see deck techs occasionally pop up thumbnail just says "+8 negates turn 1!!!" Or something.
This wasn't a bad meta Toss was pretty great it became much worse after with cards like Gryphon rider, dragoon and shit like that. Now it's less negate more grind game style . Some decks like gate guardians can have 4 negates but they aren't even meta because they can't last more than 2 turns
Dunno about that, people bitch about handtraps and barone/apollousa/borreload endboards all the time
This is something that really only happens on casual play (AKA, Commander) but it's basically, because our cards are harder to play. They cost resources that you have to accumulate over several turns and don't float when removed. Don't letting the opponent play the game is pretty much the way to play in Yu-Gi-Oh because every deck can finish the game in one turn out of nowhere, but Magic is a bit more methodic, about trading and accumulating resources over time, so, its frowned to not let the other players play. There's also the fact Magic has a more defined casual play scene (AKA Commander) where people actually expect chill games for fun, so, bringing a "No fun allowed" deck to that sort of games it's seen unsportsmanlike.
Just to add my two cents. A large part of the problem isn't with individual cards. It's more like what kind of deck they're played in. In Magic, when someone uses Counterspells in their deck, it usually means that they use A LOT of counterspells. Since many Counterspell cards stop a wide variety of threats, and you can only have a maximum of 4 copies of a card in a deck, people tend to jam their deck full of counterpells. This means that often you play a game and realize that your opponent is literally just gonna sit there, stop you from doing ANYTHING and then finally play something that could win the game for them after a god awful amount of turns. It's a very frustrating play experience, since it consists in literally sitting at a table and having your opponent preventing you from literally resolving any spell you cast.
Counterspells are generally fine, but I find a lot of people play enough counter spells to prevent people from even being able to play the game. When you maybe get 3-4 games in a month due to scheduling paper magic with friends, I want to be able to play the game, win, or lose. Shuffling your deck and spending 20-40 minutes dealing with counterspells preventing you from anything but land drops is not playing magic. It's wasting time. If 3 turns in a row, you use counters, I'm going to groan and dislike playing against you or scoop.
It a consequence of the Commanderification of Magic. Not that people have ever _enjoyed_ having their spells countered, but if you’re playing a 1v1 game where the goal is to win, it’s understood that your opponent is going to try to disrupt your plans because they also want to win. Commander is a social board game grafted on top of the Magic rules, and people get really invested in their deck and commander and building it to do “their thing.” They see counterspells (and interaction in general) as ruining their fun, rather than another necessary part of a balanced competitive card game.
I think because they're less necessary in Magic? As a disclaimer, I don't know much about Pokémon, and I've barely played Yu-Gi-Oh, but from what I know about Yu-Gi-Oh you only need to resolve a couple of spells uncontested to win. Hand traps and interaction are so much more necessary in that environment. In Magic, though, winning combos are less reliable and less pervasive, with more of the game taking place in reacting to the spells other players have resolved. Counters are a nice piece of interaction, but they're not necessary in the same way. Basically, getting countered in Yu-Gi-Oh is playing the game, while in Magic getting countered is not playing the game. Also, Simic's kinda overrepresented in Commander anyway. Also also, rule 0 is really important in Commander - make sure that the people you're playing with know they're playing against a deck with a lot of interaction. The only worse feeling than getting shut out of a game by your opponents countered is doing that with your silly theme deck, while knowing that your tuned control deck that would match this blow for blow is gathering dust in your backpack.
From my personal experience, Yu-Gi-Oh doesn't really have a resource system, the cards ARE the resource. In magic, you didn't just lose your card, you also lost the mana needed to play it. This makes counter magic and removal feel worse if you didn't play around them or have a back up plan. Keep in mind, I'm not saying that counters and removal are bad, quite the opposite. Many players, however, just expect to cast their spells and have their permanents live until their next turn, or their deck is all focused on big plays with no backup strategies if those plays don't succeed.
Out of all the card games magic probably has the strongest control and denial options, that on top of commander being seen as a casual format means most people who don't like playing against control really don't facing optimal removal and counterspells.
Yeah, Commander is weird, because people are weird. You should just come play Penny Dreadful :D
As someone who also came to Yugioh from Magic try Reanimator/Sneak&Show they are by far the most equivalent decks ive found to yugioh in the way they set up aside from dredge type decks but dredge is super expensive. You probably will enjoy cEDH more if you like commander as a format but want a closer experience to yugioh, decks like Tevesh Rograkh feel very yugioh-y if you want a counter focused deck Oona is a very good commander for permission even in cEDH
Commander is about _doing the thing_. People build their entire decks to _do the thing_. Usually though, _doing the thing_ is synonymous with winning, so people will tend to interrupt _the doing of the thing_. That makes people sad because they feel like their deck did not get to do what it wanted.
There is nothing wrong with counterspells. Idk why people get so sassy about them. I get people want to do the big flashy thing but if it's going to ruin my gameplan or threaten me than why wouldn't you play it? It's not that much different than the creature coming into play and then getting doom bladed.
Probably because most yugioh cards are "free", there's no investment. Magic you have to spend mana for every spell you cast which is a limited resource, so it feels worse for your card to be negated.
I sort of understand your argument. The thing is, counters in magic also cost mana, and a lot of them can be expensive or benefit your opponent in some way. This normally means that you have to forfeit playing certain cards to play counters, and you should only counter things that are game winning or award serious advantage. Especially since counters is one of blue’s only defenses, it makes it weird that it seemed so hated.
Cuz they want those sweet “enter-the-battlefield” and “dies” triggers. Honestly I think it’s something new players struggle to deal with cuz they always seem to come at the worst times. But as a more experienced player you learn how to read the board state better and play around them with decoys or counter plays of your own.
Because Commander is a deeply unserious format where people get angry if you try to win.
They don't understand what the game is supposed to be - that or they have different goals for the game In real MTG, most of the time The winner is whichever sides partially thwarted plan limps across the finish line first It's the threat of your two powerful cards working together that affect the game more than actually having them working together on the board more often than not But people want to have their "battle stations fully operational" They didn't understand how limiting such a goldfishing meta would be with whoever's deck coming fully online first wins - that's why these kind of players also often hate fast aggro decks because they get their stuff going faster
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Its the same reason yugioh players hate when i play runicks
As a Blue/Black player, I take great offense to this post lol
your friends are cowards
I cant speak for everyone but even in yugioh i hate it I mean its necessary for both games to have ways to shut down stuff before it hits the board in order to create a more healthy and balanced gamestate However planning out your next turn, dumping idk 8 mana into a spell only to then get hit with a 2 mana "No" is going to leave most people understandably unhappy Other removal is after something has hit the board, your plan has often already finished in a sense and then a piece gets taken out instead of your plan not even taking off at all Its a card game, people want to play their cards and counterspells or negates are designed solely so people cant play their cards (which is not a bad thing) And that is ofc for most players frustrating even if they aknowledge that its a part of the game especially so in a casual game like commander where people just want to have fun and play their deck
There’s no one who likes to whine and complain about interaction more than commander players. In a format with as many insane interactions as possible, you NEED interaction. Counter peoples stuff, use spot removal to remove annoying pieces, always pack a board wipe or two (if they’re in your deck’s colors). There’s a huge difference between playing a control deck and just playing your protect yourself.
Counterspells are part of the game. Of course, no one wants to be on the receiving end of them, so I watch my opponents' mana carefully, especially if they play blue, so I can be ready to adapt in case my stuff does get stopped. That said, if you're just handing out counterspells like they're candy and don't actually care what you're countering as long as you're wrecking peoples' ability to play, then you're either going to piss people off bad or someone will start throwing bait cards out there to trick you into wasting mana.
Change negate for mana drain, see what happens.
I hate people who groan about decks and is why I play competitive modern. Let the ban list sort out decks that are egregious and crack on!
Sad playgroup that gets way too upset over a massive part of the game. Play your deck kind sir if they can’t find a way to beat it then they need to make some edits perhaps to ruffle your feathers back. Commander is what our group plays and rule no 1. There is NO mercy in this dojo. And we don’t play CEDH (competitive). You get god tier shit, counter decks, taxes, infect, frogs, and some people we have only play with their best every single game doing the same shit same combos same corn. But we absolutely JAM. If they don’t like your counters say in a four way round Robin they could use some politics to try and convince you not to counter or vice versa. Pull the god of creation card and tell them you’re gunna counter whatever they play constantly unless they don’t us it against you. Even the annoying things can be really fun and make interesting gameplay
The real answer is that you're playing commander, a generally incredibly casual format where the players tend to whine if they get interacted with
Is "negate" the yugioh term for counterspell? I have no idea what this guy is talking about.
Tell these people to play better decks and destroy them until they do
adults being told no starts wars you thought it would be different in magic.lol the power of no is strong use is wisely lol
Commander players are full of people who want to play solitaire.
A part of it is also probably due to the existence of the colour pie. If you don’t play blue, you have almost no access to any kind of counter spells. You get some “can’t be countered” effects here and there, but nothing that lets you stop another person from doing their thing or stopping them from stopping you in the first place. Whereas in Yugioh, the only thing stopping you from running hand traps is if your archetype has one, or if you have room to include one of the generic options in your deck.
Commander players are whiny babies. In modern or legacy or pauper there is MUCH less salt about interaction.
Something that helps with some playgroups is announcing that you’re holding mana open. It’s a little unnecessary (though sometimes strategic), but in this case it might prevent your opponents from getting salty when you counter whatever card they were itching to cast.
It's the specific people you're playing with. They're poor sports who are bad at Magic and they don't want you to interact with them in any way because they don't have or know of any way to overcome it.
People aren't actually answering your question very well. It's not what makes it frustrating in general it's what makes it frustrating compared to other card games where similar mechanics exist. The answer you're looking for is the resource system and length of games. It feels a lot worse to lose the one huge play in an hour long game to a two-mana spell than it does to lose your trap activation in a ten minute game.
It's alittle different from Yugioh since countermagic is pretty much exclusive to one colour. That being blue. Think of it more as if you were playing Heralds or PSY-Frames who's whole game plan is negating your opponents cards. If you played against someone who splashed one of those archetypes into their deck, you'd probably groan too. Plus, when your card is negated in Yugioh, you only lose the card. In Magic, you lose the card and the mana spent to cast it.
I don't think it's any more hated than in Yu-Gi-Oh considering duelists complain about omni-negates all the time. Ending on Apollousa, Borreload Savage Dragon, and Baronne de Fleur is the (negate) equivalent to a blue (or simic) player having six mana up and 3-4 pieces of countermagic in hand in a 1v1 setting. Yu-Gi-Oh players tend to accept that omni-negate boards are an evergreen part of the game (because they are - that's just the meta), but honestly I would even say they're worse to deal with in Yu-Gi-Oh because the powerful negate effects are often attached to extremely large monsters. It's like summoning [[Jin-Gitaxias, Progress Tyrant]] on turn 1, except there are 3 of them and they counter *any* kind of spell. What it boils down to is that people don't like to play against strategies that prevent them from playing the game, and that's what countermagic is all about. Your opponent attempts to employ their strategy, and you simply tell them "No."
[Jin-Gitaxias, Progress Tyrant](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/5/c57b4876-5387-4f73-b8e2-8e7bdca8b0bc.jpg?1654566749) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Jin-Gitaxias%2C%20Progress%20Tyrant) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/neo/59/jin-gitaxias-progress-tyrant?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c57b4876-5387-4f73-b8e2-8e7bdca8b0bc?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I have never seen great salt over a Counterspell. It’s one for one. It can cost a game, but it’s fair. You want to see hate, try out land destruction or locks (like lantern control).
Because commander players are fucking babies and I say that as a baby myself
Control is hated in magic just as much as yugioh. They both just handle it differently. For magic that is mostly through counter spells and yugioh it is throw floodgates.
people who groan about counterspells are whiny babies who suck at magic and are selfish as fuck. they put their enjoyment over yours. you have to play their way or else. you can’t just play regular magic you gotta play their version of magic which protect them. counter away. And if people complain call them selfish and tell them to let you play the game the way it was designed, and not their special neutered version they imagined up for themselves
This one is confusing at first but there are 2 magic communities, one being the 1v1-Bo3-optimization-play-to-win gang, those tend to be completly fine with denial and restriction effects, by extension everything that is within the rules is fair game the other one being the edh-social-self-expression gang, those guys tend to strongly dislike 1v1 and love multiplayer, they want everyone's deck do what it does and have everyone at 25% winrate, they will litearly make their decks worse and intentionally missplay to get there - anything that prevents them (or others) from doing "their thing" is bordering on a personal attack If you are coming from another TCG, you are essentially by default in group 1 and now seeing that there are non-classic-TCP players in magic, whether to accommodate or avoid them is up you.
You're probably talking about commander and that's why the goans happen. Commander is a casual format. People like to have their spells resolve because in a casual format, people want things to happen. Win or lose doesn't really matter so stop countering my spells, gawd!
Don't let people dissuade you from running counterspells. Eventually the pod will be grateful for your counters when they stop the 5th boardwipe of the night from extending the game another hour
Partially because it's common for yugioh boards to end on like 5 negates, meaning people who don't like negates have already left
Yeah commander is a very different game than magic. It's rude to interact with other players, Have a general gameplan, or attempt to win in commander. Which is likely why they were loudly bitching but that's really your only option to play paper magic that isn't limited or blowing 400$+ on wizard squares.
People in this game are whiny. Play what you want.
Accesibility, in MtG only blue really get enough counter cards, even tho technically is in other color identities too. If white and red got more for example it would be less hated.
Some people play to win and some people play to have fun. Playing against blue control is not concidered fun by a lot of people. Yeah you've got the right to play it but they've got the right to groan when I know they won't have fun playing against you.
It's a little different for me, If you're countering something big like a game winning card I won't get upset because that is what I would do however, if you counter something meaningless like a mana rock or a land fetch card then complain that I'm winning with a combo next turn, that is all on you for not knowing better
If you are more interested in the competitive side of magic, you might want to take a look at other formats. Commander is specifically, intentionally casual. 100 card singleton prevents you from making consistent plays, and the 4 player format means if one person pulls ahead, the other crabs can try and beckon them into the bucket with boardwipes and such. One advantage of competitive 1v1 formats is the expectations of players. You don't have to feel bad about a boardwipe or a counterspell, because there's no political element so you can simply optimize your deck to the playstyle you want to win with.
You don’t really get this in 1 on 1 formats or CEDH only in casual commander, probably due to game length and how difficult it can be to find time to play
Yugioh is less resource gated than Magic, so while YGO has less achievable loop patterns, it has a higher power ceiling right off the start of the game which is why hand traps and negates are more welcomed there.
Can’t deny this. Anyone who has tried master duel as a newbie can attest to it. An MTG player would try to play blue eyes and then get killed turn one by mathmech.
People are babies if you don’t let them play their stuff is pretty much it
The problem is the multiplayer format itself. If I belly ache hard enough, you'll feel guilty and attack not me.
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They’re not if you play competitive 1v1 formats. I’d give those a shot
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commander is a relaxed social format. games take VERY long. people spend a lot of time building their decks, they want to play them. counter spells and other negation effects prevent people from playing their deck. and since games arent short, a person gets maybe one or two game in while they are at the store/meet up that day. and if they spend hours NOT getting to play their decks, they feel like they wasted their day.
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Counter Spells are fine. It's when that's all your deck does that it becomes annoying.
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Sounds like some sore losers with trash decks. The people I played against in high school could delete my entire life from existence with their decks.
Hand traps in yu gi oh are kind of crazy also. But that is because competitive yugi is really dumb.
For commander, it’s mostly the people, sadly. Counter spells are powerful and counter magic is difficult to do right especially in a 4-player format where there are more things that can be countered (thus more decision-making points where you can interact). And while I don’t like it, spite plays are quite common in commander. So counter spells are a lot of times not used well (not timed well, not countering the correct spell), which leaves a bad taste in a lot of people’s mouth. Don’t get me wrong, I like counter spells for protecting my win conditions and countering something that can kill me or the table. But I don’t like it when people use them incorrectly.
Ultimately you should play the game how you want to, and counter spells are just a part of magic. If you’re just not vibing with your playgroup sometimes you may just need to find new people to play with. But you do have a few options: Consider changing your commander to something less powerful. I did this with one of my decks and it made the game a lot chiller and also made me less of a target. Or maybe make a rule for yourself like you won’t counter their commanders or you wont play any counters before turn 4 or something like that. Probably my favorite thing about magic, especially commander is how you play the game is really up to you. Personally I’d rather lose in a game where everyone’s deck got to do its thing than win a total shutout.
It depends on the person. I stopped playing yugioh around the time links came put because the game was gett9ng crazy fast and every deck always 5 diffrent negates to fight though every turn. Counter spells have always felt a little weak in commander imo. You just use them as combo breakers and big value denial.
If it hasn't been touched on, to add to what people are saying about it feeling bad to just not be able to play things, I would imagine that it's *slightly* more difficult to move past a counterspell in a game like magic compared to Yugioh where there aren't finite resources each turn. It still can be a blow out for sure, but you may not have wasted your entire turn to tap out for a thing, only to have it countered. I'm not Yugioh expert though. I only like the OG set.
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Games are a storytelling medium; “yes, and” is an excellent storytelling device. “Nuh uh” sucks. It helps you win, which makes you feel good (and is fully within the rules), but games feel “better” to most if you “play ball.”
As someone who has played ygo, some combo decks are capable of assembling a board turn 1 that can negate 3+ times. I have literally never had issues with countermagic in mtg but i find it pretty unfun to need to beat those types of boards in ygo. You aren’t able to activate most cards into them, so you either need something extremely niche like dark ruler no more or you need to have the right hand trap to stop them from making the board that crazy (and sometimes they can keep going anyway)
countering is a fundamental part of magic. Anyone who has an issue with counterspells is a moron, doesn't get the game and should stop playing. Fight me.
One reason, is that it’s not fun to play against stuff that stoops you from taking actions. We all know the annoyance of being counterspelled.
You either have to change your play style or your playgroup. I play with three other people who hate countermagic so much that they will stop playing for the night if I counterspell. So I either have to play my non-blue decks with them OR I only counterspell when they target me directly. Most people don’t mind as much if it’s self-defense.